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Rand al'Fain
09-22-2011, 01:25 AM
possible solution?

Admittedly, this is a spur of the moment idea, but here it goes.

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
His blood means that of Rand's dear sweet uncle that has a thing for skinning wolves and killing old couples in their sleep. The mourning has to do with mourning his mother's corrupted brother, and "birth" refers to a new age. And during the death of "dear, sweet uncle," Rand's wound splits.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.This however, I see as it comes from Rand's side wounds, and most importantly, the rock of Shayol Ghul. What if his side wounds split open, and spilled on the rocks. And due to Fain's evil being in his blood in that wound, it allows for a seal of evil on evil, kind of like how he was able to cleanse Saiden, but this way, it does offer a buffer without tainting either one of Saider or Saiden. Making a seal that will outlast even Heartstone (not going to bother butchering it's other name).
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. And the bloody rock shall be used to seal the Bore until Meirin (or whatever her name will be when the next AOL comes) drills into it. And obviously, from the sounds of it, it was no easy task to drill into the bore.

Also this way, it avoids a Fain=Gollum from LOTR, as Fain wouldn't have to fall into the Bore to seal it. Rather, we have the essence of Fain/Mordeth's evil used as a buffer, mixed with the Dragon's blood (the Champion of the Light), as well as pitting both against the evil of the DO. A strong seal that not only pits evil against evil, but the DO's greatest nemesis' essence against the DO as well. A 3 way stalemate that can only be broken by an outside force (drilling the Bore).

And... Begin the critiquing/criticizing!

Crispin's Crispian
09-22-2011, 11:17 AM
I don't want to get to scientific, but how is blood going to create a seal? Nothing we've seen so far indicates a special power to blood that can alter the Pattern. (I'm thinking of the Malazan books where blood is used in the most powerful ritusls.)

I think it must be a metaphor, but I've been thinking a lot about "red on black" lately. I can't imagine it's a coincidence that Moridin (and now Taim) have this fondness for black and red, and Moridin's soul is somehow linked to Rand. I think Fain is a red herring in this aspect, and though he's going to play a big role at the end it's not going to be as part of the Seal. The role of Shadar Logoth's evil is over after the Cleansing--now it's Fain against Rand and Moridin.

Here's how I'm thinking about it right now.

1) The Bore is a hole in the Pattern.
2) IntegRand seems to have some sort of positive influence over the Pattern (connection with the land, making tea taste better, blinding Darkfriends).
3) Moridin is directly connected to the Dark One through the True Power, more closely than any of the other Chosen.
4) Rand and Moridin are linked via balefire, through a mechanism neither understands.
5) Padan Fain hates both of them, and is currently executing plans to kill them both.

If Moridin is the Shadow's "Chosen One," we might expect to see Pattern-changing effects accompanying him. For example, it would get cloudy or dark, food would spoil, wine would turn to vinegar, plants would die or be blighted. So far, we've seen no indication of that. As such, I don't believe Moridin is the same type of Chosen Soul that Rand is. I think Moridin's role is going to be as a direct connection to the Dark One, perhaps as the buffer between it and Rand.

Anyway, Fain kills them both and that Seals the Bore.

LOL


**ETA**
This isn't my full-blown theory, I'm just talking off the top of my head. I've been thinking a lot about Rand's role, though, and what he can do to actually seal the Bore.

Rand al'Fain
09-22-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah, not concrete by any means, but the wound in Rand's side is there for a reason, and has been all but named as the cause of his death at Shayol Ghul.

Enigma
09-22-2011, 06:26 PM
Yeah, not concrete by any means, but the wound in Rand's side is there for a reason, and has been all but named as the cause of his death at Shayol Ghul.

Technically they were there to allow Rand to figure out how to cleanse the taint. Saying that the taint and the wound both posess the essence of the DO. We have seen several references to Rand toying with the idea of not settling for the status quo and sealing up the DO so that Rand has to save the world agains and again but is instead thinking of someway to elimate the DO entirely. Perhaps he figures he will repeat the cleansing in some way by throwing Fain and his dagger into SG and see what happens.

One last thing for those who are into the body swap, if Moridin did find his mind in Rand's body he may not be able to cope with the experience too well. The wound in Rand's side has been described as agony but one that Rand is so used to now that he barely notices it. If someone was comming from a healthy body that pain might just knock them out of the game for a bit.

PerrinMcBeardy
10-04-2011, 02:57 PM
My theory on why Rand's blood will be spilled at Shayol Ghul centers around the two wounds in his side. We already know what Fain is going to be waiting there for Rand. I believe that once Rand gets in proximity of both Shayol Ghul and Mashadar/Mordeth that the two forms of evil in his side will finally destroy each other the way they did at the cleansing. Also like at the cleansing, this will create an explosion that will rip open Rand's side. I'm not theorizing here whether or not this will kill him, but this is how the two evils will leave him and why and how his blood will be spilled.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Hey Muttley, interesting comment about how blood has no special power to affect the pattern. Not sure I agree. I was checking some stuff yesterday on Slayer and saw this which has some implications:

[TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 37 - Darkness in the Tower
Perrin fell to one knee, the pain in his leg still there. He gasped. "You can't heal yourself," Slayer said. "There are ways, but simply imagining yourself well does not work. You do seem to have figured out how to replenish your blood, however, which is useful."


Replenishing your blood in T'A'R is doable...so why not have a reason to do so? And the apparent contradiction of "you can't heal yourself" vs. "there are ways". It all could tie in to Rand sealing the bore through Tel'A'Dreamyland

Crispin's Crispian
10-04-2011, 05:24 PM
Hey Muttley, interesting comment about how blood has no special power to affect the pattern. Not sure I agree. I was checking some stuff yesterday on Slayer and saw this which has some implications:



Replenishing your blood in T'A'R is doable...so why not have a reason to do so? And the apparent contradiction of "you can't heal yourself" vs. "there are ways". It all could tie in to Rand sealing the bore through Tel'A'Dreamyland

Interesting. You're suggesting Rand's going to run his blood in a kind of transfusion machine to keep the Bore permanently sealed? OK, that's a little different than what you said, but that seems to be the gist.

What might be the ways a person could heal him or herself in Tel'aran'rhiod, if not by imagination?

GonzoTheGreat
10-05-2011, 04:16 AM
What might be the ways a person could heal him or herself in Tel'aran'rhiod, if not by imagination?Imagine there's a nice AS of the Yellow Ajah next to you when you need her. Let her Heal you, and then make her disappear again.

That would fit what Slayer said, yet still be more complicated than the approach Perrin tried.

thomwoosley
10-05-2011, 04:24 PM
Replenishing your blood in T'A'R is doable...so why not have a reason to do so? And the apparent contradiction of "you can't heal yourself" vs. "there are ways". It all could tie in to Rand sealing the bore through Tel'A'Dreamyland

Could it be that the 'you' is referring not to a general anyone, but Perrin specifically? So it's "You [Perrin] can't heal yourself."

There may be ways, but Perrin doesn't know them yet.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2011, 03:22 AM
Could it be that the 'you' is referring not to a general anyone, but Perrin specifically? So it's "You [Perrin] can't heal yourself."

There may be ways, but Perrin doesn't know them yet.Well, obviously. However, that doesn't really clarify anything in what those ways are, does it?

Daekyras
10-06-2011, 05:56 AM
It all could tie in to Rand sealing the bore through Tel'A'Dreamyland

I Really, REALLY, hope that this does not happen. I have stated many times that T'A'R has been overused and to have it end here would cause me no end of annoyance.

Zombie Sammael
10-06-2011, 08:05 AM
I Really, REALLY, hope that this does not happen. I have stated many times that T'A'R has been overused and to have it end here would cause me no end of annoyance.

Of course, the reason why it's been so "over-used" might well be because of its overall importance in the grand scheme of things.

Enigma
10-06-2011, 10:22 AM
Of course, the reason why it's been so "over-used" might well be because of its overall importance in the grand scheme of things.

Well it is the one place that touches all the possible worlds, sort of like the center of a the spokes of a wheel so it may be quite important. Of course I thought that one could not enter the blight in the World of Dreams the same way that previously one could not enter the Aiel city in the waste.

Zombie Sammael
10-06-2011, 10:29 AM
Well it is the one place that touches all the possible worlds, sort of like the center of a the spokes of a wheel so it may be quite important. Of course I thought that one could not enter the blight in the World of Dreams the same way that previously one could not enter the Aiel city in the waste.

The fact that Rhuidean was inaccessible in TAR indicates that, in some sense, the effect may be man-made. This may mean that it is literally something done with the power - similar to the Dreamspike - or it may be that places with very few people for an extended period are entirely inaccessible; Rhuidean was all but abandoned and the Blight is full of horrible monsters.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2011, 10:33 AM
Terez: Can Shayol Ghul be reached in Tel'aran'rhiod?
Brandon: I'm actually going to RAFO that. And that's actually not one I'm RAFO'ing...I'm RAFO'ing that for very good reasons. Not just out-of-hand RAFO'ing.
Terez: Gotcha.Of course, the relevance of this to the current topic is debatable.

Enigma
10-06-2011, 10:37 AM
Going to SG in TAR may not be a good idea even if it is possible. We know from Demandred that the DO exerts influence in the area around SG so that its always cold but dry and the tunnel down to the Pit has an adjustable roof. Its a lot easier for a mere mortal to manipulate the environment in TAR. Would it it be a lot easier for the DO to likewise control the area around SG in the manipulation friendly TAR that it is in the reality is fixed waking waking world?

Zombie Sammael
10-06-2011, 10:48 AM
Going to SG in TAR may not be a good idea even if it is possible. We know from Demandred that the DO exerts influence in the area around SG so that its always cold but dry and the tunnel down to the Pit has an adjustable roof. Its a lot easier for a mere mortal to manipulate the environment in TAR. Would it it be a lot easier for the DO to likewise control the area around SG in the manipulation friendly TAR that it is in the reality is fixed waking waking world?

It sounds like the DO is able to manipulate reality in his immediate vicinity to the same level as a skilled Dreamwalker can manipulate TAR anyway. If that's the case, going to Shayol Ghul in TAR may be a very good idea; the DO wouldn't get any more powerful - you can't get more powerful than "freely able to manipulate reality" after all - but you would at least have a similar advantage, so long as you were a skilled Dreamwalker or had one with you.

Enigma
10-06-2011, 10:52 AM
Could any mortal hope to match the DO's ability to change/manipulate the environment? After all the DO is eternal, he would have had a very very long time to hone his skill. What would one lifetime be compared to that?

Then again the new and improved Rand does seem to remember a lot of his lives as well. Is there any evidence that LTT was more skilled in TAR that the average AoL trained channeler?

Zombie Sammael
10-06-2011, 10:57 AM
Could any mortal hope to match the DO's ability to change/manipulate the environment? After all the DO is eternal, he would have had a very very long time to hone his skill. What would one lifetime be compared to that?

Then again the new and improved Rand does seem to remember a lot of his lives as well. Is there any evidence that LTT was more skilled in TAR that the average AoL trained channeler?

Rand has a... funky relationship with TAR anyway:

Terez: When Perrin and Egwene saw Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod in TDR, had he been pulled there by someone?
Brandon: (pause) I'm a little bit out on a limb on this one, but I don't believe he was. We have seen places where Rand manifests in Tel'aran'rhiod when he's in the real world, and this is something that happens with Rand that we haven't seen with other people...
Terez: Are you talking about like when...
Brandon: Well, there's the Perrin sequence, for one...
Terez: Right, and when Ishamael visits him in TGH...
Brandon: Mmmhmm.
Terez: Right. Cool.
Brandon: So, I believe Rand has got something a little unique going on there...
Terez: Oh, okay. That's interesting.
Brandon: ...but, I'm a little on a limb on that one.

I'm not sure if Brandon has changed his position on this one since. As it seems he didn't really know for sure, that might imply that TAR isn't key to defeating the DO in quite the way people usually think ("Rand will go there and fix the bore in TAR with need/reality manipulation"). On the other hand Rand's unusual relationship with TAR certainly ought to mean something, even if it's just making him easier to resurrect after he dies.