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Verin Mathwin
09-22-2011, 03:30 PM
Considering how the Aiel felt about Aes Sedai at the beginning of the series (treated them with respect, were afraid of failing them again, etc.) Why would the Aiel march on Tar Valon during their little foray into the Wetlands?

FelixPax
09-22-2011, 03:47 PM
Considering how the Aiel felt about Aes Sedai at the beginning of the series (treated them with respect, were afraid of failing them again, etc.) Why would the Aiel march on Tar Valon during their little foray into the Wetlands?

Are you asking about this for previous WoT events, or for AMoL book?

Verin Mathwin
09-22-2011, 03:52 PM
Well, I thought the title of the the thread "The Aiel War" made it pretty plain I was talking about... the Aiel War, which happened 20 years before the series.

Tree Brother
09-22-2011, 03:58 PM
Considering how the Aiel felt about Aes Sedai at the beginning of the series (treated them with respect, were afraid of failing them again, etc.) Why would the Aiel march on Tar Valon during their little foray into the Wetlands?

I don't think Tar Valon was their goal. For Aiel, it wasn't a war, they were just going into the Wetlands to punish (kill) Laman Damodred.

They just happened to pass near Dragonmount on their way back (pattern needed them to do that).

Verin Mathwin
09-22-2011, 04:00 PM
I know Tar Valon wasn't their goal, but they still went there. I can accept it being the pattern forcing events to bring about the Dragon's birth... it makes sense.

Crispin's Crispian
09-22-2011, 04:25 PM
I'm searching for the reference, but I'm almost positive Laman fled Cairhien to Tar Valon, which is why the Aiel followed him.

Crispin's Crispian
09-22-2011, 04:36 PM
The Wise Ones exchanged hesitant glances. At last Amys said, "It was the beginning of the third year of the search for Laman when Shaiel found herself with child. By the laws, she should have returned to the Three-fold Land. A Maiden is forbidden to carry the spear while she carries a child. But Janduin could forbid her nothing; had she asked the moon on a necklace, he would have tried to give it to her. So she stayed, and in the last fight, before Tar Valon, she was lost, and the child was lost. Janduin could not forgive himself for not making her obey the law."Not a direct reference, but it tells of the Aiel searching for Laman, and Shaiel going with them toward Tar Valon.

Enigma
09-22-2011, 06:21 PM
I don't think that anyoe knew that the Aiel were after Laman until after he had been killed. It would make sence for them to attack Cairhien as he was probably there but once the armies of Cairhien were defeated he probably fled looking for support.

It would make sense for the various armies to gather at Tar Valon it is pretty centrally located.

Terez
09-22-2011, 06:30 PM
I don't think that anyoe knew that the Aiel were after Laman until after he had been killed.
It was already common knowledge among the Aes Sedai before he was killed.

TITLE - New Spring
CHAPTER: 2 - A Wish Fulfilled

Concentration on the cold kept her from fretting over the smoke. And the battle. The sky outside the windows held the gray of early morning, now. Soon, the fighting would begin again, if it had not already. She wanted to know how the battle was going. She had a right to know. Her uncle had started this war. She certainly did not excuse the Aiel in the slightest for the destruction they had brought to Cairhien, city and nation, but she knew where the ultimate blame lay. Since the Aiel arrived, though, Accepted had been confined to the Tower grounds as strictly as novices. The world outside the walls might as well have ceased to exist.
For some reason, the Grand Alliance thought it worth protecting him.

Enigma
09-22-2011, 06:41 PM
It was already common knowledge among the Aes Sedai before he was killed.

Are you sure? I don't meen that everyone knew that Laman started the war but that the Aiel would have been satasfied with his death. I had a vague recollection of someone telling Rand & co about the war and saying that everyone thought it was an invasion brought on by the cutting down of the tree and only later found out that the Aiel were after Laman alone. I could be wrong and simply remembering it incorrectly.

If they did know, how did they find out. The Aiel don't strike me as the sort to post wanter posters or tell armed soliders that they need not die if they simply hand over their tree killing king.

Sarevok
09-23-2011, 05:05 AM
If they did know, how did they find out. The Aiel don't strike me as the sort to post wanter posters or tell armed soliders that they need not die if they simply hand over their tree killing king.

They kinda figured it out once they realized the time Laman got killed was the same time that the Aiel suddenly broke off the fighting an ran back to the waste.

Terez
09-23-2011, 07:11 AM
Are you sure? I don't meen that everyone knew that Laman started the war but that the Aiel would have been satasfied with his death.
Well, that's not what you said.

GonzoTheGreat
09-23-2011, 07:29 AM
Even about 20 years later, not everyone understood that it had only been about Laman:
Tam brushed aside the waterbag with an arm that seemed to have regained all of its strength. He seized Rand's collar, pulling him close enough to feel the heat of his father's fever in his own cheek. "They called them savages," Tam said urgently. "The fools said they could be swept aside like rubbish. How many battles lost, how many cities burned, before they faced the truth? Before the nations stood together against them?" He loosed his hold on Rand, and sadness filled his voice. "The field at Marath carpeted with the dead, and no sound but the cries of ravens and the buzzing of files. The topless towers of Cairhien burning in the night like torches. All the way to the Shining Walls they burned and slew before they were turned back. All the way to – "

kabkaba
09-23-2011, 07:40 AM
I think it is said somewhere, that the Aiel did not attack Tar Valon. They only surrounded it and fought with all the other nation's armies protecting Laman. That was why Aes Sedai did not take part in the War. They only watched and helped with other things like healing etc. They could not attack the Aiel because of the three oaths because the Aiel did not attack them.

Davian93
09-23-2011, 10:40 AM
Perhaps the nobility (and in particular members of royalty like Moiraine) had a better understanding of what started it then say Tam (a soldier, a higher ranking officer but still a soldier) and other commoners.


Just a thought.

Weiramon
09-23-2011, 12:24 PM
Perhaps the nobility (and in particular members of royalty like Moiraine) had a better understanding of what started it then say Tam (a soldier, a higher ranking officer but still a soldier) and other commoners.


Just a thought.

Aye, that is always the case.

Juan
09-23-2011, 12:27 PM
Maybe the aiel wanted some sight-seeing of a great city.

kielbasaj
09-23-2011, 12:30 PM
Maybe the aiel wanted some sight-seeing of a great city.

"I went to Tar Valon and all I got was this lousy Cadin'sor!"

The Unreasoner
09-23-2011, 03:58 PM
Tam actually mentions twice in that same chapter that men died for Laman's sin. The average Joe may have been clueless, but tam seems to know the truth of most things. Like ltt.

Why Tar Valon though?
If Laman was there, why wasn't he in the city, or the Tower itself? Or if he was, did Aiel hitmen sneak in?

Or maybe laras snuck him out and handed him over when she figured out the deal.

Crispin's Crispian
09-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Tam actually mentions twice in that same chapter that men died for Laman's sin. The average Joe may have been clueless, but tam seems to know the truth of most things. Like ltt.

Why Tar Valon though?
If Laman was there, why wasn't he in the city, or the Tower itself? Or if he was, did Aiel hitmen sneak in?

Or maybe laras snuck him out and handed him over when she figured out the deal.

Come to think of it, I don't remember a Cairhienin general ever being mentioned. Andor has Bryne, and the Borderlands have their generals. WCs had Niall, etc. Maybe Laman was actually acting as a general for Cairhien, so had to be outside somewhere?

I wonder if the Tam prequel would have shed any light on this.

Weiramon
09-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear it was simply Laman's turn to lead the combined armies.

That's the result when peasant notions of equality are followed - an incompetent is made general while his better Tairen counterparts are left to order around Malkieri layabouts in the wee hours of the morning.

David Selig
09-23-2011, 06:18 PM
I think it was common knowledge that Laman's Sin was the cause of the war, and at least some people strongly suspected that the Aiel's goal coming west was only to kill him, Gareth Bryne for example as we see here.

TGS, Ch.30

“Yes,” Bryne said. “More than once. I wasn’t Captain-General during the Aiel War, but I was a rank-captain. I wondered then, many times.”

“How could you question your side during the Aiel war, of all things?” Gawyn said, frowning. “They came to slaughter.”

“They didn’t come for us,” Bryne said. “They just wanted the Cairhienin. Of course, that wasn’t so easy to see at first, but truth be told, some of us wondered. Laman deserved his death. Why should we die to stand in the way of it? Maybe more of us should have asked the question.”

greatwolf
09-24-2011, 06:30 PM
Even if the aiel only came for Laman, its still very bad business to leave a force of such strength unchecked. I think the other rulers needed to to act to preserve themselves.

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2011, 04:18 AM
Then again, letting Laman deal with his own troubles while keeping a large army sort of in the area to discourage the Aiel from continuing after they'd dealt with him might have been a smart move.

There is a (rather significant) difference between leaving another army unchecked and engaging it in actual combat. That's especially relevant after you've lost the first 16 encounters with them, I would say.

Enigma
09-25-2011, 08:35 AM
Something to remember is that most nations then and quite a few even now view the Aiel as savages. They are viewed in somewhat the same way that the US viewed the native American indians or victorian Britain viewed a lot of the tribes in Africa.

To the rest of the world they would have seen an army of savages bigger than anything seen since Hawkwing's day show up and loot (the 1/6 rule) Cairhien and obliterate its armed force.

Presumably Laman fled when his armies were shattered and what was left of the nations armies went with him. The Aiel followed and that would have taken them out of Cairhien and into Andor and I think there was even some reference to the fighting almost reaching as far south as Tear thought I could be wrong on that point.

Remember how touchy the Andorans were when Bashere showed up with his seven thousand men and how they were ready to put aside a civil war to take on the borderland armies who had come onto Andoran soil.

I think that most of the leaders of the various factions knew that it was Laman's act of cutting down the tree that had set the Aiel off but I suspect that they did not know that the Aiel simply wanted to kill Laman. My take on what we have been told is that most of the leaders blamed Laman for starting it but they believed that the Aiel now wanted to destroy all of Cairhien and perhaps all of the Westlands. If they had known that the simply wanted to execute Laman alone some of his own nobles would have handed him over.

It was only later when Laman died and the Aiel then pulled back that people were able to put the pieces together.

As to whether Laman was in command at the battle of Tar Valon the BWB talked about this. There are a lot of things in the Guide that are wrong as it was written as if by an AS historian but given that the battle happened right on the WT's doorstep it should be accurate.

I'm going from memory here but every nation wanted its leader/general to be commander in chief and a compromise was worked out. There was a rota of generals drawn up and each would command for one day and then command would pass to who ever was next on the list. Laman wanted to be in charge as he claimed he had the most experience with the Aiel. There was some mention as if all the unmitigated disasters he had led his armies to was something to be proud of. By accident or design the better generals were put at the head of the list. I can't remember who was who but Pedron Neill was high up on the list while Laman was at the very bottom.

confused at birth
09-25-2011, 12:41 PM
i dont think why they were there would have mattered that much to anyone after they invaded. it is clear they didnt care who they had to kill to get to Laman.

how many people would care about what caused the war after it had started. they killed anyone who resisted and as they had invaded there would have been a lot of them, I doubt they were paying for food and felt it was their right to take the fifth from everyone.

the nations did the right thing by fighting them i mean i dont care how why you gave it to Cairhien it was just a sodding tree and they went on a killing spree.

they could sneak into the stone but had to come in force to assassinate the king of a nation who thinks he is your only friend in the world. they could have just done rock paper scissors and sent a single fighter from each society and killed him in the night.


you kill innocent people you kind of lose the moral high ground with me

Juan
09-25-2011, 01:19 PM
What I wanna know is what would happen to an Aiel midget. Would he be killed? Lol.

confused at birth
09-25-2011, 01:22 PM
What I wanna know is what would happen to an Aiel midget.

A Ginger Midget Ninja scary:D

you would never know when a short spear would come out of your bowl of cereal

Enigma
09-25-2011, 02:35 PM
how many people would care about what caused the war after it had started.

Given the cut throat nature of the Game of Houses in Cairhien I would not be surprised if some of the noble houses would just love to turn over a rival king to the Aiel to secure peace and be hailed as savours of Cairhien.

the nations did the right thing by fighting them i mean i dont care how why you gave it to Cairhien it was just a sodding tree and they went on a killing spree.

they could sneak into the stone but had to come in force to assassinate the king of a nation who thinks he is your only friend in the world. they could have just done rock paper scissors and sent a single fighter from each society and killed him in the night.

It was more that just a tree to the Aiel it was the symbol of their peace offering. The Aiel are a very proud people and what Laman did was essentially a slap in the face to the Aiel

The Aiel certainly over reacted and they could easily have sent a few warriors to slip in and kill Laman but this was shaping up to be a pattern level event leading up to the birth of the dragon reborn. The pattern no doubt gave the Aiel a few nudges to send them on their way. Not to mention RJ did a very good job of setting up the world so that no group is 100% good or without fault. The Aiel are honourable truthfull psyco killers.

confused at birth
09-25-2011, 02:52 PM
It was more that just a tree to the Aiel it was the symbol of their peace offering

yes we know that but no one did then and what 5-6 people outside of the aiel have heard the full story of why they ended up giving it to Cairhien?

It was just a tree in Cairhien that came with a peace treaty and trading rights nothing else the Aiel never told them if this dies we will kill anyone in the way to get to your king and leave their families to die hungry and alone while the Aiel stole anything of value then burnt their houses down.

but this was shaping up to be a pattern level event leading up to the birth of the dragon reborn

The Aiel havent figured this out yet have they.
i have been waiting for Rand to order them to give back everything they stole in both wars and ban all the treekiller insults.

The whole world would have been destroyed if that bloody tree hadnt been cut down so they need to find Lamans head take it back to Cairhien and beg forgiveness for the double dose of genocide they have put them through.

all the Aiel need a good spanking:D

GonzoTheGreat
09-26-2011, 04:16 AM
It was just a tree in Cairhien that came with a peace treaty and trading rights nothing else the Aiel never told them if this dies we will kill anyone in the way to get to your king and leave their families to die hungry and alone while the Aiel stole anything of value then burnt their houses down.So, by cutting down the symbol of the peace treaty, Cairhien broke that treaty and basically declared war.

How's that not sufficient justification for launching an offensive?

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 11:54 AM
by cutting down the symbol of the peace treaty, Cairhien broke that treaty and basically declared war

that is like saying that if you lose your wedding ring you have filed for divorce.
If someone burns the declaration of independence does England own America again? Well I hope not we wouldnt have you back now if you begged to be let back into the empire:D

If it had died on its own and he cut it up would they still have gone to war? he would still be cutting up the peace symbol.

it was just a gift and they didnt know it was the important part of the treaty just cut off his head and collapse the passes the led into the waste dont kill everyone who is the wrong height or refuses to give you a fifth of what they own.

Sarevok
09-26-2011, 01:26 PM
it was just a gift and they didnt know it was the important part of the treaty just cut off his head and collapse the passes the led into the waste dont kill everyone who is the wrong height or refuses to give you a fifth of what they own.

How is that the Aiel's problem?

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 01:51 PM
How is that the Aiel's problem?

true and in the end they did the right thing because it will give the world a chance but i hate it when people do that type of thing.

dont tell someone that something is important then blame them for getting it wrong, well in my case i am just clueless and it didnt click that I wasnt in her house to help her with DIY until she stopped picking up when i called but i thought she was out of my league :(.

ok enough of my dating problems.:mad:


if you dont know something is important to the person who gave t to you you judge it by its value to you not them

Why would the Aiel march on Tar Valon during their little foray into the Wetlands?

maybe they besieged Tar Valon because they beleived the stories that no army had ever gotten in and were afraid that if Laman got inside he would be safe then the Grand Alliance tried to crush them against the river and brought Laman with them to bargain with the aiel.

some idiot freaked when he saw an aiel to close to camp, big battle they track down Laman and leave. everyone kicks themself for not giving him up then attack the aiel for making them look bad for years and for looting when he was all they wanted

Crispin's Crispian
09-26-2011, 03:28 PM
dont tell someone that something is important then blame them for getting it wrong, well in my case i am just clueless and it didnt click that I wasnt in her house to help her with DIY until she stopped picking up when i called but i thought she was out of my league :(.


That was from a movie, wasn't it?

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 03:36 PM
That was from a movie, wasn't it?

no it was a local redhead girl with a fantastic body i like but can never figure out what she wants.

that type of thing happened with us a few times but i never caught on until after i got annoyed at her vanishing every time we spent time together for a while.

didnt actually get it until she called me when i was in the shower and she said she would be right over and was pissed when i opened the door dressed and asked her where she wanted to go for dinner.

i am clueless at this type of thing so it has happened to me with a couple of girls

GonzoTheGreat
09-27-2011, 04:21 AM
that is like saying that if you lose your wedding ring you have filed for divorce.A better analogy might be someone who very deliberately melts down his wedding ring and then dumps the lump of gold into the sewers, in full view of his in laws. And something like that might indeed be considered a bit of a declaration that you want a divorce.

Now add that the wedding ring was known to be a priceless antique (as far as the Cairhienin knew, the only other tree of that species was in an unknown location, and possibly mythological), and then you might start to see why destruction was indeed considered a rather hostile act.

tworiverswoman
09-27-2011, 05:07 PM
The tree was a scion of Avendasora, and that was known quite well when it was gifted to the Cairhienen. Remember that Laman cut it down expressly because he wanted to make a throne out of the most significant tree in the world. Laman didn't "lose" the tree - his act was one of base pride and arrogance, and it's no surprise at all that the Aiel came after him they way they did.

Don't judge the Aiel by your own sense of right and wrong -- I think RJ has done a damn good job of making the Aiel philosophy of life rather different from our own. They don't think of life and death the same way the rest of Randland does -- to die is to "wake from the dream" -- that doesn't sound all that tragic. They attacked Cairhien to get at THE Tree Killer, but they all got lumped together as far as the Aiel were concerned.

The worst problem was that the rest of the world simply didn't know or understand the "rules" the Aiel use during a war. And the Aiel never considered that they were doing anything not intuitively obvious to the most casual observer in the way they went after Laman, or took the fifth, or let certain people live and killed others out of hand. This obliviousness isn't a mindset unique to them, of course, but the fact is, they DO think at about 90 degrees to the rest of the people of that part of the world. So it's no wonder people died who didn't actually need to - they didn't know enough to get out of the way.

Enigma
09-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Does anyone find it a bit surprising that everything seemes to have gone back to the way they were after the war was over. If you think about it the Aiel come out of nowhere and it takes the combined armies of the known world to drive them back (at least as far as the wetlanders see it). Yet as soon as the Aiel are gone all the armies are disbanded and aside from the borderland nations a bit national army is 10,000.

I get that very large armies cannot be sustained for too long as they are expensive and the men who make up the armies are needed to work on the farms etc. Yet with the Aiel just over the mountains and few having any real understanding of why they attacked one would think that the society would be a bit more militarised that it was at TEofW.

Put it another way, after the terrible distruction of the first world war the French set up a series of fortressed and defences called the Magionot Line. There seems to have been no similar steps taken by anyone least of all the Cairhien.

Rand al'Fain
09-28-2011, 01:14 AM
Does anyone find it a bit surprising that everything seemes to have gone back to the way they were after the war was over. If you think about it the Aiel come out of nowhere and it takes the combined armies of the known world to drive them back (at least as far as the wetlanders see it). Yet as soon as the Aiel are gone all the armies are disbanded and aside from the borderland nations a bit national army is 10,000.The threat was gone, and that was the only thing keeping so many different nations together.

I get that very large armies cannot be sustained for too long as they are expensive and the men who make up the armies are needed to work on the farms etc. Yet with the Aiel just over the mountains and few having any real understanding of why they attacked one would think that the society would be a bit more militarised that it was at TEofW.Once again, once the threat was gone, few (outside of the Aes Sedai and maybe Pedron Nial) even wanted anything to do with most of the other countries outside of occasional trading.

Put it another way, after the terrible distruction of the first world war the French set up a series of fortressed and defences called the Magionot Line. There seems to have been no similar steps taken by anyone least of all the Cairhien.Either way, the Maginot Line proved to be pretty much useless for the French. The Germans just steamrolled through the French forces too quickly.

Besides, the Cairheinen were terrified of the Aiel, hence why only 2 towns along that old trade road leading to the Aiel Waste were still populated and most of the rest lived in the Foregate at Cairhein (which was alluded to in The Great Hunt the first time around I believe).

GonzoTheGreat
09-28-2011, 04:03 AM
Either way, the Maginot Line proved to be pretty much useless for the French. The Germans just steamrolled through the French forces too quickly.Not really. They simply went around the Maginot Line entirely. It was one of the last pockets of organised resistance to surrender.

Basically the Germans carried out the plan which had been made some 50 years earlier to fight the First World War. It probably would've worked then, too, if they had used it the first time.
But in WWI, they tried a variation, one which left the Netherlands neutral. As a result, all the German forces had to squeeze through Belgium, they got stuck in a giant traffic jam, their advance ground to a halt, and the rest is (a lot of) history.

Similarly, the Aiel could have been stopped if they'd been met in the passes in the Spine of the World by a sufficiently strong blocking force. In that case, their ability to run rings around their opponents would have been useless, as they could only go forward or backward in those narrow passes. Their large numbers would have been useless, as only a very limited number of fighters could have been active at any one time. And with their lack of trees and such, they wouldn't have been able to build very good siege engines.

Rand al'Fain
09-28-2011, 10:15 AM
Not really. They simply went around the Maginot Line entirely. It was one of the last pockets of organised resistance to surrender.
My point exactly. It was meant to stop an invasion, but it was basically ignored.
Basically the Germans carried out the plan which had been made some 50 years earlier to fight the First World War. It probably would've worked then, too, if they had used it the first time.
But in WWI, they tried a variation, one which left the Netherlands neutral. As a result, all the German forces had to squeeze through Belgium, they got stuck in a giant traffic jam, their advance ground to a halt, and the rest is (a lot of) history.[quote]Yep, but they didn't go with the original, so Belgium got pissed, told them to get the F out, and then WWI just became an utter shithole from that point on.

[quote]Similarly, the Aiel could have been stopped if they'd been met in the passes in the Spine of the World by a sufficiently strong blocking force. In that case, their ability to run rings around their opponents would have been useless, as they could only go forward or backward in those narrow passes. Their large numbers would have been useless, as only a very limited number of fighters could have been active at any one time. And with their lack of trees and such, they wouldn't have been able to build very good siege engines.
Could've, should've, would've, build no bridges, or in this case, fortifications.

But the Aiel have shown no real interest in siege weapons or skills, outside of camping outside of Cairhein for awhile and not wanting to push the Shaido into Cairhein. They tend to just climb the walls and go from there. And wait until dark to do it. Walls, fortresses, etc, have not really been a hinderance to the Aiel at all.

confused at birth
10-04-2011, 08:23 PM
It was meant to stop an invasion, but it was basically ignored.

yse and no

actually someone from England with an American girl told them about the french plans to stop them so they knew how to get past all armies and hit them where it hurts.:eek:


So sorry France but we still dont like you that much:p