PDA

View Full Version : COTW-al'Lan Mandragoran


WinespringBrother
09-23-2011, 08:50 AM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing al'Lan Mandragoran.

For a mostly secondary character, with no main sequence book POV's until Towers of Midnight, Lan has played an important role several times, in helping guide the Duopotamians to relative safety, in mentoring Rand as a swordsman and soldier against the Shadow, in guarding Moiraine's and Nynaeve's backs, and in gathering and rallying the defenses of the undefended Borderlands. He is one of the best developed characters, in terms of being able to turn down power and glory as the "uncrowned king" to be honorbound to keep his vows as a Warder despite his obvious wishes to do otherwise, even to the extent of eliciting comment from Moiraine about his prideful humililty. He has stated that he seeks his death in the Blight in his unwinnable war against the Shadow, but will he be somehow persuaded that this is not the right course for him, especially now that he knows who has taken his bond? He now faces a seemingly undefeatable host of Shadowspawn at Tarwin's Gap, but will he be able to prevail somehow? What does the future, post Tarmon Gai'don, hold for him?

Khoram
09-23-2011, 05:36 PM
Lan is somebody who does things for the greater Good. He has spent his life learning the art of fighting, and is experienced in many forms of combat. He is engrossed in his vengeance for his people, and is almost focused on this to a fault; he has spent his entire life fighting the Shadow, and fully expects to die on the battlefield - when something good happens to him, he shrugs it off. Granted, he shrugs it off because he doesn't want to ultimately hurt those he cares about - case in point Nynaeve in EotW, which is quite admirable. He knows that his war with the Shadow will not lead to his surviving (at least, it most likely will not), and figures that it is best to (essentially) wander alone - that way, there's a greater chance that those he cares about will survive.

Then you have his faults - his desire to go on alone and fight the Shadow does not include fighting alongside others. Which is understandable - but when you alienate yourself from the remaining surviving Malkieri to fight this war, then there's something wrong. Yes, he's fighting his own private war against the Shadow, but ultimately the war with the Shadow encompasses the entirety of the known world. Lan, I'm almost positive, finally begins to realize this in ToM, when he's about to march on the Trollocs situated at Tarwin's Gap. At least, he comes to accept the fact that he will ride with his kin to battle, rather than riding alone.

As for his chances of surviving Tarwin's Gap or even the LB, I feel his chances are slim. It's only a matter of time, and no matter how proficient you are in the use of a sword (or any form of fighting), even a farmer can defeat you with a simple quarterstaff (in this case, it isn't that different, with Trollocs and all ;)). I believe Lan will survive Tarwin's Gap, only to finally fall in the final battle. It only seems fitting that he will meet his end there.

Rand al'Fain
09-23-2011, 09:02 PM
Me, I believe that Lan will somehow survive and have a family with Nynaeve post TG. Will they ressurect Malkier? No clue (they would have enough support from the Borderland kingdoms, if nothing else). And Lan, even though he's been pretty gruff since the beginning and standoff-ish, he's opened up little by little to, most notably, Rand and Nynaeve. Rand is probably one of the few people that Lan can call "friend", and vice-versa. So I think Rand may end up helping Lan out in someway.

Call me an optimist, but I just don't see any of these core characters being killed off with the exception being Rand (possibly, not sure what happens overall with him).

Sei'taer
09-24-2011, 10:02 AM
Lan is probably my favorite character in the books.

He's known by reputation at least throughout the realm. Even the Aiel know and respect him. He's a true warrior and is actually a very wise man. His advice is always good and he knows how to handle people, even if he doesn't particularly want to do it.

IMO, he's probably the best fighter in the series and may turn out to be a match for the other "great captains" in the series. He seems to have an innate ability to see the best and worst in a man and use it to his advantage.

I think he survives Tarwins Gap and the LB, though it'll be a close thing.

GonzoTheGreat
09-24-2011, 10:27 AM
IMO, he's probably the best fighter in the series and may turn out to be a match for the other "great captains" in the series.He sure is trying to match Weiramon.

Sei'taer
09-24-2011, 02:08 PM
He sure is trying to match Weiramon.

I don't even think that's possible.

confused at birth
09-24-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't even think that's possible.

true Lan is not as smart as Weiramon

Enigma
09-25-2011, 08:44 AM
Is Lan a great captain? I know that he helped Rand plan the battle of Cairhien with the Chiefs and he is about the best warrior alive but that's not the same thing as being a master tactician. My read of the man was that he was skilled and experienced but that he had never commanded very large numbers of men. He was more a field officer and yes he was in charge of men in the Aiel war but what I mean is that he never directed a full army.

Could any of us see Mat or Gareth Byrne or Bashere etc comming up with a plan to ride to Tarvin's Gap and simply charge at the shadow army there. That seems to be Lan's plan.

Don't get me wrong he is very honourable and Rand leanred probably as much from Lan in the early days and Moiraine but a lot of the men who led troups at the begining of the first world war were brave and honourable as well. Look what happend to their men.

To Lan's credit he does not want to lead men and that absolves him of most of the responsibility if he does get those men killed. Perhaps he knows that his own brand of leadership is great if you are the head of say the WOT's version of a squad of the SAS or the Seals but not so hot if you are commanding general.

kivo
09-25-2011, 09:49 PM
Perhaps he knows that his own brand of leadership is great if you are the head of say the WOT's version of a squad of the SAS or the Seals but not so hot if you are commanding general.

Well I think we should reserve judgment until we see how the battle at Tarwin's Gap turns out at least. :D :p

Weiramon
09-26-2011, 12:16 AM
Could any of us see Mat or Gareth Byrne or Bashere etc comming up with a plan to ride to Tarvin's Gap and simply charge at the shadow army there. That seems to be Lan's plan.



Aye, and a better plan I cannot imagine.

Zombie Sammael
09-26-2011, 04:04 AM
Aye, and a better plan I cannot imagine.

Hate to break it to you but I think Lan mostly has foot. :o

FelixPax
09-26-2011, 06:30 AM
This week, we're discussing al'Lan Mandragoran.

... He is one of the best developed characters, in terms of being able to turn down power and glory as the "uncrowned king" to be honorbound to keep his vows as a Warder despite his obvious wishes to do otherwise, even to the extent of eliciting comment from Moiraine about his prideful humililty. He has stated that he seeks his death in the Blight in his unwinnable war against the Shadow, but will he be somehow persuaded that this is not the right course for him, especially now that he knows who has taken his bond? He now faces a seemingly undefeatable host of Shadowspawn at Tarwin's Gap, but will he be able to prevail somehow? What does the future, post Tarmon Gai'don, hold for him?


Does anyone suspect Nynaeve al'Meara might take up Lan on a promise of his, before possibly dying in the Blight?
Or perhaps, take up one of Lan's other suggestions?

Oh, the authority and usefully of a King's ring... One, Two, Three, Four! :cool:



“I never said—” He took a deep breath. “I told you I had nothing to offer for brideprice but widow’s clothes. Not a gift any man could give a woman. Not a man who can call himself a man.”

“I understand,” she said coolly. “In any case, a king does not give gifts to village women. And this village woman would not take them. Have you seen Rand? I need to talk to him. He was to see the Amyrlin. Do you know what she wanted with him?”

His eyes blazed like blue ice in the sun. She stiffened her legs to keep from stepping back, and met him glare for glare.

“The Dark One take Rand al’Thor and the Amyrlin Seat both,” he grated, pressing something into her hand. “I will make you a gift and you will take it if I have to chain it around your neck.”

She pulled her eyes away from his. He had a stare like a blue-eyed hawk when he was angry. In her hand was a signet ring, heavy gold and worn with age, almost large enough for both her thumbs to fit through. On it, a crane flew above a lance and crown, all carefully wrought in detail. Her breath caught. The ring of Malkieri kings. Forgetting to glare, she lifted her face. “I cannot take this, Lan.”

He shrugged in an offhand way. “It is nothing. Old, and useless, now. (1) But there are those who would know it when they saw it. (2) Show that, and you will have guestright, and help if you need it, from any lord in the Borderlands. (3) Show it to a Warder, and he will give aid, or carry a message to me. (4) Send it to me, or a message marked with it, and I will come to you, without delay and without fail. This I swear.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 8 "The Dragon Reborn" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Lan in Fal Dara fortress



I enjoyed how RJ wrote this scene with multiple layers. Of present and future. Of direct and indirect foreshadowing. Promises. Imagery. And how in a split of second, Nynaeve turns from a village woman to an uncrowned queen.


Lan even sounds like Perrin later does (in CoT book)... if their loved one is missing or in harm's way. Lan's “The Dark One take Rand al’Thor and the Amyrlin Seat both,”... to Perrin's the Pattern can burn.


Yet Lan in the TEOTW book when describing Nyaneve al'Meara actually sounds a bit like Valan Luca of all individuals. :eek:


The Wisdom looked at Lan silently for a long time, then poured a cup of tea and brought it to him. When he reached out with a murmur of thanks, she did not let go right away. “I should have known you would be a king,” she said quietly. Her eyes were steady on the Warder’s face, but her voice trembled slightly.

Lan looked back at her just as intently. It seemed to Rand that the Warder’s face actually softened. “I am not a king, Nynaeve. Just a man. A man without as much to his name as even the meanest farmer’s croft.”

Nynaeve’s voice steadied. “Some women don’t ask for land, or gold. Just the man.”

“And the man who would ask her to accept so little would not be worthy of her. You are a remarkable woman, as beautiful as the sunrise, as fierce as a warrior. You are a lioness, Wisdom.”

“A Wisdom seldom weds.” She paused to take a deep breath, as if steeling herself. “But if I go to Tar Valon, it may be that I will be something other than a Wisdom.”

“Aes Sedai marry as seldom as Wisdoms. Few men can live with so much power in a wife, dimming them by her radiance whether she wishes to or not.”

“Some men are strong enough. I know one such.” If there could have been any doubt, her look left none as to whom she meant.

“All I have is a sword, and a war I cannot win, but can never stop fighting.”

“I’ve told you I care nothing for that. Light, you’ve made me say more than is proper already. Will you shame me to the point of asking you?”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 48 "The Blight" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; observing Lan and Nynaeve from a distance


It's an irony that Nynaeve al'Meara perhaps asks the very question she did not want to "ask" Lan to Valan Luca unknowingly! :D


Nynaeve to Lan: "Will you shame me to the point of asking you?”

Nynaeve to Valan Luca: "I dole out the money,"... "Unless you want to offer me your wagon?


Luca actually swirled that red cape as he turned to Nynaeve; he looked very satisfied indeed. “And you, my dear Nana? What surprising talent do you have? Tumbling, perhaps? Swallowing swords?”

“I dole out the money,” she told him, slapping the scrip. “Unless you want to offer me your wagon?” She gave him a smile that wiped his clean away and backed him up two steps besides.

The shouting had roused people from the wagons, and everyone gathered around while Luca introduced the troupe’s new performers. He was rather vague about Nynaeve, merely calling what she did startling; she needed to have a talk with him.


The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 17 "Heading West" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Thom, Juilin, Elayne, Luca and the Show Folk

Nynaeve is so clueless, she popped the question to Luca... likewise Nynaeve does not grasp the she's already asked him to marry her, when Luca finally has a private talk with her (TFoH, Ch.47).


“What I am trying to say is that I want you to stay. There’s a wide world out there, a thousand towns waiting for a show like mine, and whatever is chasing you will never find you with me. A few of Akima’s people, and some of Sillia’s who haven’t been marched off across the river—they’re joining me. Valan Luca’s show will be the greatest the world has ever seen.”

“Stay? Why should I stay? I told you from the first we only wanted to reach Ghealdan, and nothing has changed.”

“Why? Why, to have my children, of course.” He took one of her hands in both of his. “Nana, your eyes drink my soul, your lips inflame my heart, your shoulders make my pulse race, your—”

She cut in hurriedly. “You want to marry me?” she said incredulously.

“Marry?” He blinked. “Well . . . uh . . . yes. Yes, of course.” His voice picked up strength again, and he pressed her fingers to his lips. “We will be wed at the first town where I can arrange it. I’ve never asked another woman to marry me.”


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 47 "The Price of a Ship" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Valan Luca near Samara

The above bolded part, is where Valan's is surprised that Nynaeve did not already understand that 'she had pop the question earlier' in TFoH, Chapter 17.



It's also quite humorous how Nynaeve changes from not wanting to be shamed to "ask" Lan to marry her to "telling" Lan how its going to be! :eek:


“In the Two Rivers, Lan, when somebody gives another a ring, they are betrothed.” That was a lie, and she half-expected him to jump to his feet in outrage, but he only blinked warily. Besides, she had read about the notion in a story. “We have been betrothed long enough. We are going to be married today.”

“I used to pray for that,” he said softly, then shook his head. “You know why it can’t be, Nynaeve. And even if it could, Myrelle—”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 31 "Mashiara" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Lan on a boat in Ebou Dar



Lan's humor can be quite amusing:


“Nynaeve is Aes Sedai now, too, Lan. She’s in need of a good Warder.” One of the other women made a noise, but Egwene held her gaze on him.

“I hope she finds a hero out of legend.” He barked a laugh. “She’ll need the hero just to face her temper.”


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 12 "A Morning of Victory" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view, with Lan, Siuan, Myrelle, Nisao, Areina, Nicole and four other Warders


Quite funny how RJ weaves possible hints, clues, references of Valan Luca throughout the series by using various labels and descriptions. In this case above, Lan's phrase a 'hero out of legend' is a kin to Mat's use of that phrase too, in a later scene with Luca in a wagon. And a Seanchan Standbear's phrase too: "I'll wager I can whip you into a proper hero in no time." (KoD, Ch.7)



In any case, if Lan's flesh dies Nynaeve will not exactly be a widow... because she was asked to marry another. Valan.


Interestingly even Egwene al'Vere brought up Lan's previous desires in her thoughts, just before sending him to Nynaeve in Ebou Dar...

The thing was, she knew he had resisted admitting his love for Nynaeve. Some nonsense about how he was bound to be killed sooner or later and did not want to leave her a widow; men always did spout drivel when they thought they were being logical and practical.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 12 "A Morning of Victory" -- Egwene point of view

Valan's marriage proposal to Nynaeve al'Meara mets Lan's wishes curiously enough.



Why will Nynaeve al'Meara not allow Lan to die? Perhaps one lessor reason is bad luck? :D (A greater reason is love!)


Besides, as the widow of not just one, but two dead chiefs, perhaps she carried bad luck.

Lord of Chaos, Prologue "The First Message" -- Sevanna point of view, her thoughts

If first Lan dies, then Valan dies... has Nynaeve lost her luck? One husband, then another husband... each killed fighting the shadow?

I guess Matrim's luck will not be near nor helping Nynaeve? :confused:


This theme of bad luck & two dead Aiel chiefs was highlighted by Sevanna's character repeatedly. One chief survived to Rhuidean, one chief did not enter Rhuidean. In Nynaeve's particular situation through, Lan did not enter Rhuidean's Glass Columns nor Arches. Who's to say what Valan will do, enter Rhuidean's Glass Columns?

Sei'taer
09-26-2011, 10:37 AM
Is Lan a great captain? I know that he helped Rand plan the battle of Cairhien with the Chiefs and he is about the best warrior alive but that's not the same thing as being a master tactician. My read of the man was that he was skilled and experienced but that he had never commanded very large numbers of men. He was more a field officer and yes he was in charge of men in the Aiel war but what I mean is that he never directed a full army.

Could any of us see Mat or Gareth Byrne or Bashere etc comming up with a plan to ride to Tarvin's Gap and simply charge at the shadow army there. That seems to be Lan's plan.

Don't get me wrong he is very honourable and Rand leanred probably as much from Lan in the early days and Moiraine but a lot of the men who led troups at the begining of the first world war were brave and honourable as well. Look what happend to their men.

To Lan's credit he does not want to lead men and that absolves him of most of the responsibility if he does get those men killed. Perhaps he knows that his own brand of leadership is great if you are the head of say the WOT's version of a squad of the SAS or the Seals but not so hot if you are commanding general.

You forget that Lan has already led a company sized force in the Aiel war. I understand that it's not an army, but it's also much bigger than a squad and requires a certain amount of tactics knowledge.

Also, Lan's parents named him Dai Shan, Diademed Battle Lord of the Malkieri. Five men survived bringing him out of the blight, they trained him in Malkieri heritage, the Blight, and combat. I have no doubt that combat training involved tactics and large armies. How else could he be expected to live up to the name Dai Shan? Because of his training and his upbringing, I'm quite sure he is as capable in commanding armies and in battle tactics as the five greats.

Sei'taer
09-26-2011, 05:23 PM
Does anyone suspect Nynaeve al'Meara might take up Lan on a promise of his, before possibly dying in the Blight?
Or perhaps, take up one of Lan's other suggestions?

Oh, the authority and usefully of a King's ring... One, Two, Three, Four! :cool:







I enjoyed how RJ wrote this scene with multiple layers. Of present and future. Of direct and indirect foreshadowing. Promises. Imagery. And how in a split of second, Nynaeve turns from a village woman to an uncrowned queen.


Lan even sounds like Perrin later does (in CoT book)... if their loved one is missing or in harm's way. Lan's “The Dark One take Rand al’Thor and the Amyrlin Seat both,”... to Perrin's the Pattern can burn.


Yet Lan in the TEOTW book when describing Nyaneve al'Meara actually sounds a bit like Valan Luca of all individuals. :eek:





It's an irony that Nynaeve al'Meara perhaps asks the very question she did not want to "ask" Lan to Valan Luca unknowingly! :D


Nynaeve to Lan: "Will you shame me to the point of asking you?”

Nynaeve to Valan Luca: "I dole out the money,"... "Unless you want to offer me your wagon?




Nynaeve is so clueless, she popped the question to Luca... likewise Nynaeve does not grasp the she's already asked him to marry her, when Luca finally has a private talk with her (TFoH, Ch.47).




The above bolded part, is where Valan's is surprised that Nynaeve did not already understand that 'she had pop the question earlier' in TFoH, Chapter 17.



It's also quite humorous how Nynaeve changes from not wanting to be shamed to "ask" Lan to marry her to "telling" Lan how its going to be! :eek:






Lan's humor can be quite amusing:





Quite funny how RJ weaves possible hints, clues, references of Valan Luca throughout the series by using various labels and descriptions. In this case above, Lan's phrase a 'hero out of legend' is a kin to Mat's use of that phrase too, in a later scene with Luca in a wagon. And a Seanchan Standbear's phrase too: "I'll wager I can whip you into a proper hero in no time." (KoD, Ch.7)



In any case, if Lan's flesh dies Nynaeve will not exactly be a widow... because she was asked to marry another. Valan.


Interestingly even Egwene al'Vere brought up Lan's previous desires in her thoughts, just before sending him to Nynaeve in Ebou Dar...



Valan's marriage proposal to Nynaeve al'Meara mets Lan's wishes curiously enough.



Why will Nynaeve al'Meara not allow Lan to die? Perhaps one lessor reason is bad luck? :D (A greater reason is love!)




If first Lan dies, then Valan dies... has Nynaeve lost her luck? One husband, then another husband... each killed fighting the shadow?

I guess Matrim's luck will not be near nor helping Nynaeve? :confused:


This theme of bad luck & two dead Aiel chiefs was highlighted by Sevanna's character repeatedly. One chief survived to Rhuidean, one chief did not enter Rhuidean. In Nynaeve's particular situation through, Lan did not enter Rhuidean's Glass Columns nor Arches. Who's to say what Valan will do, enter Rhuidean's Glass Columns?

Out of curiosity, does anyone else wonder how this post had a fucking thing to do with Lan being character of the week?

Seriously, Felix, do you rub one out every time you read about Luca? I would never touch one of your books. Probably got some Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton type stains and the reference number for your stock in Puffs and Jergens. I mean, I'm cool with it if that's what turns you on, I say go for it, but it's just kind of a weird fetish...

FelixPax
09-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Is Lan a great captain? I know that he helped Rand plan the battle of Cairhien with the Chiefs and he is about the best warrior alive but that's not the same thing as being a master tactician. My read of the man was that he was skilled and experienced but that he had never commanded very large numbers of men. He was more a field officer and yes he was in charge of men in the Aiel war but what I mean is that he never directed a full army.

Lan seems to have all the skills & talents of a Great Captain, only he has refused to take opportunities which would led to that public label. Proclaimed Great Captains either serves a ruling monarch or controls a Nation-State. Lan is neither. Lan is monarch of a State destroyed by the Shadow, who's Nation he did not want to destroy. Besides Lan has been an Warder sworn to obey an Aes Sedai for many years. Moiraine did not allow things, that Nynaeve does allow: his fight in the Blight against the Shadow.


Rhuarc, three other Aiel Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones all seem to respect Lan as much if not more, than Westlander's respect the label of a Great Captain.


However considering Moiraine is old friends with Lord Agelmar, lord of Fal Dara and a Great Captain, she knows Lan is the best of best. Who has a father's pride towards Lan? Lord Agelmar does (TEOTW, Ch.47). Who officially directed the Allied War efforts during the Aiel War? Lord Agelmar.



Could any of us see Mat or Gareth Byrne or Bashere etc comming up with a plan to ride to Tarvin's Gap and simply charge at the shadow army there. That seems to be Lan's plan.

That shadow army likely runs the whole length of the Borderlands. When one lacks numbers, an element of surprise can gain an army some advantage. Problem is Lan's army is seriously outnumbered.


Lord Agelmar's war plan in the Gap is little different from Lan's war plan.


Don't get me wrong he is very honourable and Rand leanred probably as much from Lan in the early days and Moiraine but a lot of the men who led troups at the begining of the first world war were brave and honourable as well. Look what happend to their men.

Lord Agelmar's own fate did not look very good in the Gap, the last time around either.


“Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea—the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars; the raids have never been so fierce, or so large, or pressed home so hard. Every king and council is sure a great thrust is coming out of the Blight, and every one of the Borderlands believes it is coming at them. None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe, and each is afraid to send fighting men elsewhere. People whisper that the world is ending, that the Dark one is loose again. Shienar will ride to Tarwin’s Gap alone, and we will be outnumbered at least ten to one. At least. It may be the last Ingathering of the Lances.

“Lan—no!—Dai Shan, for you are a Diademed Battle Lord of Malkier whatever you say. Dai Shan, the Golden Crane banner in the van would put heart into men who know they are riding north to die. The word will spread like wildfire, and though their kings have told them to hold where they are, lances will come from Arafel and Kandor, and even from Saldaea. Though they cannot come in time to stand with us in the Gap, they may save Shienar.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 46 "Fal Dara" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Great Captain Agelmar, Lan, Moiraine, Loial, Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Perrin, Mat

Rand saved Shienarian lives in the Gap, in TEOTW book. A Great Captain was going to be a dead man, without outside aid. Ditto men from Fal Dara, Fal Moran, Ankor Dail, Fal Sion, Camron Caan and even Mos Shirare.


(Work Hypothesis) There's chance that if Rand didn't help Agelmar men in the Gap, the Pattern would have completely died. Why? Because a Bard coming from Mos Shirare, might have died too (TGH, Ch.9). That Bard is most likely called Valan Luca. The true blind Dragon soul.



Yes, and that's the point--a WWI type war strategy. Robert Jordan has repeatedly foreshadowed Lan's people & followers charging to fight the Shadow in the Blight.


“The Bargain of Rogosh Eagle-eye” wound its way to an end, but Thom paused only to wet his throat from a mug of ale before launching into “Lian’s Stand.” In turn that was followed by “The Fall of Aleth-Loriel,” and “Gaidal Cain’s Sword,” and “The Last Ride of Buad of Albhain .” The pauses grew longer as the evening wore on, and when Thom exchanged the harp for his flute, everyone knew it was the end of storytelling for the night. Two men joined Thom, with a drum and a hammered dulcimer, but sitting beside the table while he remained atop it.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 17 "Watchers and Hunters" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, in Baerlon at 'The Stag and Lion'

The Last Ride of Buad of Albhain most likely refers to Lan and possibly his People.

Crispin's Crispian
09-26-2011, 05:51 PM
Well, to be fair... Valan Luca is the only other guy that seems interested in Nynaeve. Besides Galad, sort of, I guess. But Galad... He just does his non-verbal flirting thing with everyone.

Galad would be the one I'd want to see fight Lan. Valan Luca wouldn't stand a chance...even with a cape.

FelixPax
09-26-2011, 06:17 PM
Seriously, Felix, do you rub one out every time you read about Luca?

Sei'taer the first time I read WoT series beginning 20 years, I completely missed many of the layers in the story RJ weaved in. Even aspects of Lan's character too.



I would never touch one of your books. Probably got some Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton type stains and the reference number for your stock in Puffs and Jergens. I mean, I'm cool with it if that's what turns you on, I say go for it, but it's just kind of a weird fetish...

Eye rolls. I did not write the Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan did. Who wrote in the First-Brothers and Sister-Wives concepts into the narrative? Robert Jordan. If you don't like the story, I'm not responsible for that.

If readers miss or demand to ignore all the sexually charged aspects of WoT, that's up to them. First time I read WoT, I viewed it as an action-adventure story....


Last I checked Lan has been subject to an ample amount sexual domination. Myrelle forced Lan to have sex with her, via compulsion of a Warder's bond. Raped.

Let alone Moiraine giving away Lan to Myrelle, as a Slave-Master does Property. An uncrowned King treated as a lowly slave.

What real difference is Lan's position for much of the series to a Seanchan so’jhin or member of the Empress's Deathwatch? Each is Property.


Lan's position is very similar to Selucia's as a so'jhin, until Lan is freed by his Sea Folk marriage vows to Nynaeve al'Meara in Ebou Dar's harbor.

Sei'taer
09-26-2011, 07:29 PM
Sei'taer the first time I read WoT series beginning 20 years, I completely missed many of the layers in the story RJ weaved in. Even aspects of Lan's character too.

Congratulations. I started reading Wheel of Time over twenty years ago, also. I also missed a lot of things too. It was 1990 and I was only 20 and I was somoking a lot of weed. Never have seen what you see...even when you supposedly show it to me. You must have some really good weed.



Eye rolls. I did not write the Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan did. Who wrote in the First-Brothers and Sister-Wives concepts into the narrative? Robert Jordan. If you don't like the story, I'm not responsible for that.

I do like the story. I don't have an orgasm when Luca is mentioned. he's a mediocre character that adds some needed pieces to the story, but he's really just a bit part.


If readers miss or demand to ignore all the sexually charged aspects of WoT, that's up to them. First time I read WoT, I viewed it as an action-adventure story....


Last I checked Lan has been subject to an ample amount sexual domination. Myrelle forced Lan to have sex with her, via compulsion of a Warder's bond. Raped.

Let alone Moiraine giving away Lan to Myrelle, as a Slave-Master does Property. An uncrowned King treated as a lowly slave.

What real difference is Lan's position for much of the series to a Seanchan so’jhin or member of the Empress's Deathwatch? Each is Property.


Lan's position is very similar to Selucia's as a so'jhin, until Lan is freed by his Sea Folk marriage vows to Nynaeve al'Meara in Ebou Dar's harbor.


See, this is much better than your first post. It's actually about Lan and not Luca. I don't know why you decided to bring Luca up in a thread about Lan. As far as I can remember without looking, they've never met. I kind of wish they would and Lan would cut his friggin head off because he was ogling Nyn and then we could put your whole Luca is the Fisher thing to rest.

I don't know if Lan thinks of himself as property or not. I do know he gave himself freely to Moiraine...for whatever that's worth.

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 08:02 PM
thank you Sei'taer i now have to clean diet coke out of my shirt.

it hurts when soda comes out your nose so please shred his posts when people are unlikely to be eating dinner in the future

Sei'taer
09-26-2011, 08:41 PM
thank you Sei'taer i now have to clean diet coke out of my shirt.

it hurts when soda comes out your nose so please shred his posts when people are unlikely to be eating dinner in the future

You're welcome.

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 08:48 PM
You're welcome.

:mad: GIT :D

i would put him on ignore but i havent figured out how to do it that yet.

Trying to learn Solitary Man on my Guitar has taken priority but i will get it done eventually

Sei'taer
09-26-2011, 09:07 PM
:mad: GIT :D

i would put him on ignore but i havent figured out how to do it that yet.

Trying to learn Solitary Man on my Guitar has taken priority but i will get it done eventually

I don't ignore anyone. I just can't do it.

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't ignore anyone. I just can't do it.

he is the only one and its mostly because i cannot read his posts without getting confused at the logic and they are really long and a pain in the arse to scroll past.

when sense is made it is usually quoted so why read the whole post?

The Unreasoner
09-26-2011, 09:18 PM
*takes a quick look around and then gets his ass out of this thread*

confused at birth
09-26-2011, 09:26 PM
takes a quick look around and then gets his ass out of this thread

Why? there is beer and popcorn:)

there was vodka now therei s not but still beer ha

my face feels hot and things are fuzy i may drunk

Lupusdeusest
09-27-2011, 08:50 AM
*takes a quick look around and then gets his ass out of this thread*

Why? It's the most amusing thing I have read all day!

Sei'taer
09-27-2011, 01:26 PM
Why? It's the most amusing thing I have read all day!

This is not here for your amusement, this is HCFF.


~I can never find that damn picture when I need it~

AbbeyRoad
09-27-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't ignore anyone. I just can't do it.
I'm just excited for the final book to come out without even a single reference to Valan Luca's name, much less any character action of his part. I wonder how Felix will respond.

Crispin's Crispian
09-27-2011, 02:23 PM
This is not here for your amusement, this is HCFF.


~I can never find that damn picture when I need it~

You mean this one?

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1353683770/SeriousBusiness.png

You're right...it wasn't that easy to find.

Weiramon
09-27-2011, 02:29 PM
Hate to break it to you but I think Lan mostly has foot. :o

Burn my soul, it's no surprise to hear that this Malkieri layabout attracts nothing more than a rabble of peasants. Rumour has it he abandoned not just one, but two Aes Sedai he was sworn to protect. Perhaps even three.

Sei'taer
09-27-2011, 02:57 PM
You mean this one?

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1353683770/SeriousBusiness.png

You're right...it wasn't that easy to find.

That's it. My God I'm lazy.

Crispin's Crispian
09-27-2011, 03:24 PM
That's it. My God I'm lazy.

I didn't mean to sound sarcastic--it wasn't apparent where to find it. My Google Fu is pretty powerful, is all. ;)

Sei'taer
09-27-2011, 03:28 PM
I didn't mean to sound sarcastic--it wasn't apparent where to find it. My Google Fu is pretty powerful, is all. ;)

I spent all of 30 seconds thinking about how to search for it and then figured someone else might be able to find it.

Enigma
09-27-2011, 05:22 PM
You forget that Lan has already led a company sized force in the Aiel war. I understand that it's not an army, but it's also much bigger than a squad and requires a certain amount of tactics knowledge.

Also, Lan's parents named him Dai Shan, Diademed Battle Lord of the Malkieri. Five men survived bringing him out of the blight, they trained him in Malkieri heritage, the Blight, and combat. I have no doubt that combat training involved tactics and large armies. How else could he be expected to live up to the name Dai Shan? Because of his training and his upbringing, I'm quite sure he is as capable in commanding armies and in battle tactics as the five greats.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Lan is a complete idiot when it comes to leading large groups of me but I don't think he is Great Captain material eitehr. When we first met the bornderland alliance there was a pov of some of the military leaders who advised the borderland armies and who were not Bashre or Agelmar Jagad. They are good compitent officers better that a lot of general officers who hold their rank due to their wealth or power. What they are lacking however is that touch of magic that sets the Great Captains apart.

Put it another way if Lan were commanding an army of equal men/equipment/training etc of that of a Great Captain the Great Captain would have to pay attention and consentrate to win where is if the Great Captain were dealing with some one like certain Tairain High Lord they could probably win with half their men never getting out of bed and with only half an eye on the battlefield.

Weiramon
09-27-2011, 05:28 PM
if the Great Captain were dealing with some one like certain Tairain High Lord they could probably win with half their men never getting out of bed and with only half an eye on the battlefield.

Burn my eyes, it's "Tairen".

Enigma
09-27-2011, 05:32 PM
I stand corrected. I note that you don't argue with the rest of the statement however :)

Sei'taer
09-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Lan is a complete idiot when it comes to leading large groups of me but I don't think he is Great Captain material eitehr. When we first met the bornderland alliance there was a pov of some of the military leaders who advised the borderland armies and who were not Bashre or Agelmar Jagad. They are good compitent officers better that a lot of general officers who hold their rank due to their wealth or power. What they are lacking however is that touch of magic that sets the Great Captains apart.

Put it another way if Lan were commanding an army of equal men/equipment/training etc of that of a Great Captain the Great Captain would have to pay attention and consentrate to win where is if the Great Captain were dealing with some one like certain Tairain High Lord they could probably win with half their men never getting out of bed and with only half an eye on the battlefield.

I don't know. I think that if you are going to train a man from birth to fight and lead, then some of that has to go into leading an army. I'm not saying Lan is better, I think he is their equal.

The Unreasoner
09-27-2011, 08:17 PM
"Equal" seems a bit strong. Whatever training he 'has to' have received, he probably isn't more than 'unusually competent'. Maybe Bryne's equal, or Marcolin.

But far short of Mat or Ituralde or Niall.

AbbeyRoad
09-27-2011, 11:52 PM
"Equal" seems a bit strong. Whatever training he 'has to' have received, he probably isn't more than 'unusually competent'. Maybe Bryne's equal, or Marcolin.

But far short of Mat or Ituralde or Niall.
I agree completely. Lan seems to be characterized by an 'extraordinary competence' in everything he engages in with regards to battle. However, he lacks the strategic genius of great tacticians like Mat or Ituralde (or Demandred, presumably); he is probably the greatest fighting combatant in the series, but knows his limitations and does not have the brilliance of the greatest military minds in the world.

He's not a general, he's a competent mind and unparalleled swordsman with an iron will.

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 12:11 AM
he is probably the greatest fighting combatant in the series, but knows his limitations and does not have the brilliance of the greatest military minds in the world.
The fact that he actually knows his limitations is key too. Definitely a virtue.

And a rare one, in WoT.

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 12:52 AM
Burn my soul, it's no surprise to hear that this Malkieri layabout attracts nothing more than a rabble of peasants. Rumour has it he abandoned not just one, but two Aes Sedai he was sworn to protect. Perhaps even three.

Burn my soul, silversides don't school with mudfish.


Burn me, did Lord Weiramon ever defy customs and work like a commoner? On a ship no less, fishing for cuendillar in the Fingers of the Dragon? When exactly did Weiramon Saniago become a High Lord again? Hmm....


Half the fishing boats in Tear were down there for months afterwards, dragging for cuendillar, not grunts or flatfish, and some had lords saying where to pull the nets. That’s what old things can be worth, if they are old enough.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 48 "Following the Craft" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Ailhuin Guenna, Elayne, Nynaeve in Tear


Questions & Speculations: Is Weiramon a jumped up a peasant farmer or merchant or soldier turned High Lord? (Farmers are associated with the 'Tavar' district, merchants the 'Chalm' district, waterbound trades the 'Maule' district in Tear.) A man trying to copy his superiors? A man who might have turned his back, on his past once, when he become associated with either the Shadow and other High Lords? If so, Weiramon's similar to Rand al'Thor as an individual. A man who possesses both Light and Darkness inside?


Ailhuin laughed until she wheezed. “Girl, nobody from the Maule knows a High Lord, or any kind of lord. Mudfish don’t school with silversides.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 48 "Following the Craft" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Ailhuin Guenna, Elayne, Nynaeve in Tear


Last I checked Weiramon, Lan gave no Oath to protect Myrelle. ;) You have it backwards, Myrelle raped Lan; similar to how Queen Tylin raped Matrim Cauthon in Ebou Dar. Wink-wink, beware of women bearing knives!

Weiramon
09-28-2011, 01:28 AM
I stand corrected. I note that you don't argue with the rest of the statement however :)

Pshaw! It's been said that the Great Captains learn from their mistakes. Weiramon Saniago never learns from his mistakes.

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 01:33 AM
Pshaw! It's been said that the Great Captains learn from their mistakes. Weiramon Saniago never learns from his mistakes.

Chuckles, I imagine Weiramon Saniago was as happy as a Tinker is on Sunday, when Rand al'Thor freed him from the Shadow. :D

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
Congratulations. I started reading Wheel of Time over twenty years ago, also. I also missed a lot of things too. It was 1990 and I was only 20 and I was somoking a lot of weed. Never have seen what you see...even when you supposedly show it to me. You must have some really good weed.

Cross-Country running and smoking don't mix.
CC and T&F athletes have other interests.


I do like the story. I don't have an orgasm when Luca is mentioned. he's a mediocre character that adds some needed pieces to the story, but he's really just a bit part.

Jordan didn't give up on his idea of a fourth ta'veren, he just weaved TEOTW narrative differently. In essence, Jordan cloned Homer's work of when to finally introduce the hero Odysseus.

The whole concept of the Dragon in WoT, means 'trouble'. What does Odysseus mean in Greek? Trouble.


Odysseus’ name means “trouble” in Greek, referring to both the giving and receiving of trouble—as is often the case in his wanderings.

Source: Wikipedia's Odyssey entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey#Character_of_Odysseus)

It's quite obvious Jordan is knowledgeable of Homer & Ovid's writings in particular. Iliad. Odyssey. Metamorphorses.

It's a bit ironic how Jordan reverses the gender roles, of how many of the males have more honor, honesty, virtue than their female counterparts. Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve each have lied and in essence broken faith at one time or another. Meanwhile Gawyn, Luca, Mat, Lan have not lied to break a promise or faith (to the best of knowledge.). Yes, Mat's told a lie, however never one which broke a promise he has given.

In terms, of predictions Fortuona/Tuon is the next female in line to break her word and a promise, perhaps unknowingly. How? By causing dissension and killing Mat Cauthon's followers in Tar Valon. Question is what will Mat choose to do with Fortuona's unfaithfulness?




Lan's distant family members


Guess you have not raised the possibility that one Lan's only distant surviving relatives might include Valan Luca? It's a question of where has Isam, Luc and Lan's sperm have visited to? ;)

Who did Ila have sex with? Lan? Luc? Or did imagination and thought alone create Valan's very being?


For arguments sake let's say, Luca's father was Luc. So how is Luc at all related to Lan? They are not related directly related as far as I know, however the Dark One did and could have make them extended family members when he combined Isam and Luc souls to one being. Slayer.

Isam is blood to Lan, and Luc is mostly likely blood to Luca. Thus through the Dark One's aid, Lan and Luca are extended family members. D.O. is a match-maker, a family-maker.

(Or Slayer directly become a sperm donor... and fathered Luca with Ila. Problem here, is the D.O. might have learn of this event, among others. Luc name's is clue, through.)

Luc's loaths his nephew Rand al'Thor, but what would a father think a son? A son, named after himself? Luc's own son Valan Luca? Who will Luc follow if push came to shove, his blood or someone's orders to kill his son? It's an ancient narrative set-up actually, one found in Old Testament passages actually too... and others.


It gets even more bizarre considering both hold Nynaeve al'Meara in their hearts. Lan married Nynaeve. Luca's betrothal to Nynaeve. It's sort like to a bunch of cousin's marrying each other, as say in the early day's of the Mormon Church. Polygamy, Plural Marriage.



Royal Blood


Even stranger still, if Luc is Valan's father? That would mean Valan Luca is Blood relatives to Rand al'Thor and Galad, as Luc's sister was Tigraine.





Nature versus Nuture: Lan, Luc, Isam, Luca, Beslan


Jordan's set-up a situation where each of these individual's childhood's has been subject to and altered by nuturing. However in parallel Jordan has set-up a situation where the same souls are woven in the Pattern repeatedly Age after Age after Age. The Nature of this particular Universe or World. A Wheel of Life. A Cycle of Passions.

So my question is, what's to distinguish one Age, one soul's life experiences from a prior incarnation's version?

Is Nuturing, how the Pattern allows for a degree of variation to occur?


Lord Agelmar claims Lan was nurtured by weapons & the Blight:

He learned weapons as other children learn toys, and the Blight as other children their mother’s garden. The oath sworn over his cradle is graven in his mind. There is nothing left to defend, but he can avenge.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 47 "More Tales of the Wheel" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Agelmar, Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine


Isam was nurtured by the Shadow, since he was a child it is implied.


Luc's upbringing?

Well, little is known about his upbringing or nurturing, except that he was young man before leaving Andor for the Borderlands. He was persuaded to leave Andor, by Gitara it's been claimed by Dyelin's father. As Slayer, he enjoys killing Aes Sedai (WH book POV), but the question I wonder about is why?


Valan Luca nurturing?

Oh, that's much easier to topic figure out than Luc's. Valan was nurtured by Tuatha'an women. He had the reverse of Lan's type of upbringing. He played in his mother's garden, the forests and deserts of the lands. Wide open countrysides, Ogier Steddings and the like.


Beslan's nurturing

Is more along the lines of 'playing with toys', aspect of Lord Agelmar's prior comments about children.

Educated to govern and to rule a nation-state. Similar to Elayne education but a far more rounded overall education & upbringing. Ebou Dar is well open-minded and 'worldly'. Plus Beslan is a male, not a female as Elayne is. Beslan got to play with Toy soldiers, go to Balls, go Dancing, and Party. A pleasant upbringing, it sounds like from his and others comments. A healthy mother-son relationship too.


Same Soul, different sides: Janus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus) like


When Artur Hawkwing appeared at Falme, he made a point of stating the soul is the same, but relationships can vary in essence.

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 47 "The Grave Is No Bar to My Call" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Mat, Perrin, Hurin and Heros of the Horn

Artur Hawkwing observes that his own Flesh soul is fighting by Lews Therin side now. Hawkwing trusts Mat's judgment. :D ;)


In essence, Artur Hawkwing's TAR essence is speaking to his Flesh essence at Falme too. Reader's gained another perspective of this, exactly WHEN Asmodean and his Soul was 'severed' from the Dark One black cords at Rhuidean. When the cords were cuts, Rand saw double images. Why? Because he saw both essences lose the Dark One's black cords at once. Asmodean lost both a TAR & Flesh cords.

From another point of view, one the very Souls bonded to the Horn of Valere as a Hero, blew the Horn in the first place. Mat Cauthon blew it, and met his own TAR essence, Artur Hawkwing at Falme. Yes, it's quite bizarre really.



Who is Janus?


A Roman god of beginnings and transitions.

Vaguely reminds me, of aspects of Ganesha...but that's a different mythology or set of tales.

In any case, Jordan copied ideas or provided his own twist on a wide range of gods, dieties, folklore and tales: Celtic (Irish) to Slavic to Aztec to Mayan to Native America to Sanskit to the Fon (Peoples) et al. Robert Jordan's is Joseph Campbell-esque in a manner of speaking.


NATO Slang: Badger, and Lenin

Perhaps Robert Jordan even possibly took the idea for using the name 'Lenn' in WoT series, from NATO's commonly agreed upon bureaucrat slang vocabulary for the USSR's first civilian nuclear Icebreaker, the 'Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_(nuclear_icebreaker))'.

What was the Lenin's class called by NATO? Badger.

Of course, the word Badger has a very different set of meanings if one looks instead at Celtic Mythology. A Dream Intermediary, in fact.

In Welsh lore, Badger in a Bag is a game called Broch ygkot . See first book of Mabinogion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabinogion); and Tasgetius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasgetius)

In Towers of Midnight book, Matrim Cauthon does put a poor Badger in a bag, in a scene with Perrin set in Whitebridge.

The Dragon's soul re-birth (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0979.htm) in New Spring: The Novel, occurs actually during the same time frame the sign of the Badger, Nov 25 - Dec 23, in what some called Celtic "Zodiac". (I have little knowledge in this area.) The Dragon soul's seems to have been born under the Sign of a Badger, from a Celtic perspective.

In any case, Robert Jordan in the Wheel of Time series has taken these meanings variation and played with them. Tales of 'Lenn'. 'Easing the Badger'. An empty Sand Badger's den. Mat's Badger in a Bag game.

Gallenne name contains Lenn curiously, as Fortuona's name contains Tuon too.


The 'Queen Rhiannon' of Wheel of Time, is also a name found in Celtic Mythology: Rhiannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhiannon). She also seems to be related to Epona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epona), who is a protector of horses, donkeys, and mules.


Who'd have thought WoT's own Bela has a protector? (TEOTW, Ch.38)

Is Nynaeve the re-born soul of WoT's Queen Rhiannon? :confused: (Yes, I'm uncertain. I suspect it, though.)


Wheel of Time Rhiannon quotations:

Nynaeve stopped dead in the middle street. After all that arguing, after getting them thrown out, she supposed? “Well, I suppose she aged the same way as the rest of us, a day at a time. Elayne, if you believed, why did you announce who you were like Rhiannon at the Tower?” She rather liked that; according to the story, what Queen Rhiannon got was far from what she had wanted.

The question did not seem to register with Elayne, for all her education. She pulled Nynaeve to one side as a curtained green carriage rumbled past—the street was not very wide there—over to the front of a seamstress’s shop with a wide doorway showing several dressmaker’s forms clothed in half-done dresses.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 24 "The Kin" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Elayne in Ebou Dar

WoT's tale of Queen Rhiannon seems to tied to Ebou Dar region. Obviously Two Rivers folk know of this Tale, but not Andorans from Caemlyn.:

“I don’t think her husband would like her to keep teaching me to read. I would not, if I were her husband.”
“Oh,” Mat said. Riselle had worked quickly once she made her mind up. Her marriage to Banner-General Yamada had been announced publicly yesterday and was to take place tomorrow, though by custom there was usually a wait of months between. Yamada might be a good general—Mat did not know—but he had never stood a chance against Riselle and that marvelous bosom. Today they were looking at a vineyard in the Rhiannon Hills that the groom was buying for her wedding gift. “I just thought you might want to—I don’t know—take her with us, or something.”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 30 "Cold, Fat Raindrops" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view, with Olver in Ebou Dar.

A Queen Rhiannon was supposedly bent or broken, by the White Tower year ago... however Meidani, Bernaile's should be tired of the Tower's broken system of power politics by saidar strength after this scene. It's a matter of nurturing, experiences molding who Meidani, Bernaile & Leonin have become now.:

Recovering, Yukiri jerked her shawl straight and set her face in a scowl that did not diminish when she saw who was hurrying toward her. Seaine was supposed to be keeping close to her own rooms, with as many White sisters around her as she could manage, when she was not with Yukiri or one of the other Sitters who knew about Talene and the Black Ajah, but here she was scurrying down the hallway with only Bernaile Gelbarn, a stocky Taraboner and another of Meidani’s jackdaws, for company. Leonin stepped aside, and gave Seaine a formal bow, fingertips pressed to his heart. Meidani and Bernaile were foolish enough to exchange smiles. They were friends, but they should know better, when they could not tell who might see.

Yukiri was in no mood for smiles. “Taking the air, Seaine?” she said sharply. “Saerin won’t be pleased, when I tell her. Not at all pleased. I’m not pleased, Seaine.”

Meidani made a small sound in her throat, and Bernaile’s head twitched, her multitude of narrow beaded braids rattling against one another. The pair of them took to studying a tapestry that supposedly showed the humbling of Queen Rhiannon, and for all their smooth faces, clearly they wished they were somewhere else. In their eyes, Sitters were supposed to be equals. And so they were. Normally. After a fashion. Leonin should not have been able to hear a word, but he could feel Meidani’s mood, of course, and he moved a step farther away. While still keeping watch along the corridor, of course. A good man. A wise man.


Crossroads of Twilight, Prologue 'Glimmers of the Pattern' -- Yukiri point of view, in the White Tower

I fully expect this Age's re-born Queen Rhiannon will experience a different outcome, in the Wheel of Time series. Why? Tower politics are different. Dissension & Mutiny from below and above, against the Amyrlin Seat, Sitters and Ajah Heads positions by many.

In this Age, it's more a question of who Rhiannon will kneel to? Not an Amyrlin Seat, like Egwene or Elaida... but perhaps Matrim Cauthon?

Nynaeve al'Meara did dislike following Mat orders. :D Their scene's together, I found very enjoyable across the series truly.



Why do I even care to look at family relationships in WoT series?


I'm curious about outcomes, and how the puzzle is put together. That means looking at Prophecy, Foretellings et al.

In Lan and Luca cases, the Dark Prophecy is most likely related to one of their fates, in AMoL book.


Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow’s hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 7 "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine point of view, Verin speaking, Siuan in the room, and Serafelle possesses a written copy

Who's Blood feeds blood?
Who's Blood calls blood?
Who's Blood shall live forever?

Isam's blood? Luc's blood?
Which relatives does this include, or refer to?


“Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.


Is Nynaeve al'Meara the true 'Daughter of the Night'? A Moon to light the night for the Sun? Nynaeve's heart light the way for Valan Luca?
Is Nynaeve al'Meara's ancient war, the fight against the Shadow?
Is Nynaeve al'Meara's new lover she seeks, a man named Lan or Luca? (Is it a question of who Nynaeve fully married first? Or a question of who Nynaeve loved first?)
Who shall stand against Nynaeve coming? The Spider, Moghedien?
The Shining Walls shall knell. 'The Towers' shall kneel?

Blood feeds blood. Does the Lost Song finally feed the People?
Blood calls blood. Are Souls called back by the Horn of Valere?
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be--Da'shain Aiel again?




Ties that bind: Blood & Love.

Remember what Moiraine feared Lan would do, if he learned he had Blood kin alive? If Isam was alive? Or if Nynaeve al'Meara was in danger?


The Amyrlin Seat frowned as if she had had the same thought, but Verin nodded as if it were all just words. “Other names are clear, too, Mother. Lord Luc, of course, was brother to Tigraine, then the Daughter-Heir of Andor, and he vanished in the Blight. Who Isam is, or what he has to do with Luc, I do not know, however.”

“We will find out what we need to know in time,” Moiraine said smoothly. “There is no proof as yet that this is prophecy.” She knew the name. Isam had been the son of Breyan, wife of Lain Mandragoran, whose attempt to seize the throne of Malkier for her husband had brought the Trolloc hordes crashing down. Breyan and her infant son had both vanished when the Trollocs overran Malkier. And Isam had been blood kin to Lan. Or is blood kin? I must keep this from him, until I know how he will react. Until we are away from the Blight. If he thought Isam were alive . . .


The Great Hunt, Chapter 7 "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine Sedai point of view, in Fal Dara with Verin and Siuan in the room speaking


Who's to say, Lan might not escape a flesh death in the Blight still? Perhaps calling by Nynaeve al'Meara to return?


In terms of images, 'white stone docks' seem to be tied to both Lan and Nynaeve's characters. When Nynaeve was saved in Ebou Dar from drowning, the city's Stone's docks are similar to those found at the Stone in Tear & Tar Valon among others. It wouldn't surprise me, to read of Lan and Nynaeve at another 'white stone docks' again.





I don't know if Lan thinks of himself as property or not. I do know he gave himself freely to Moiraine...for whatever that's worth.

True, Lan did give his word freely to Moiraine. Although Moiraine altered his agreed upon arrangement by transferring his Warder's bond to Myrelle. Lan had come choice words to say about that. Moiraine was quite cruel, to treat Lan the way she toyed with him and his heart. Moiraine was quite vengeful, and petty at times with Lan, between TEOTW to TFOH books.


A shadow stirred, and Moiraine’s voice came, weighted with irritation. “Nynaeve has not returned. I fear that young woman has done something foolish.” Lan spun on his heel as if to return the way they had come, but a single whip-crack word from Moiraine halted him. “No!” He stood looking at her sideways, only his face and hands truly visible, and they but dimly shadowed blurs. She went on in a gentler tone; gentler but no less firm. “Some things are more important than others. You know that.” The Warder did not move, and her voice hardened again. “Remember your oaths, al’Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers! What of the oath of a Diademed Battle Lord of the Malkieri? ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 38 "Rescue" -- Perrin's point of view, with Moiraine, Lan, Egwene



Lan's military education:


Separately in terms of Lan's military education, he taught and served with Lord and Great Captain Agelmar Jagad in Shienar. Lan fought against Aiel in Shienar, before the Aiel War occurred as well.


On Lan's and Agelmar's Title: Dai Shan


What does Dai Shan mean, really?
Has it always meant?

A title in the Borderlands meaning Diademed Battle Lord

The Great Hunt, Glossary

What did the People battle before the Bore was drilled?
To fight Plant diseases? Laugh, perhaps as a Head Gardener? Or at a research institute?

Is Dai Shan a new concept, or an older concept who's meaning has been altered by time?

Did it once mean in the Old Tongue, Dashain Aiel?

Were Rulers once Servants, to their People? As the title and meaning of Amyrlin Seat implies for the leader of the White Tower?



Lan as a man of mystery:

When Rand looked down, the Warder was gone, and nowhere to be seen. Loial brought his horse back to Rand’s side. “That is a hard man to catch and hold, isn’t he, Rand? He’s not here, then he’s here, then he’s gone, and you don’t see him coming or going.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, in Fal Dara in Loial, Siuan, Leane, Agelmar, Perrin, Mat and many many others

As if Lan, has become a specter or a ghostly hero?




Labels: Specific to General; General to Specific


And yet, this 'Warder' label can now describe Gawyn as well, with his three Seanchan ter'angreal rings & Warder's cloak/cape.


Jordan really did seem to enjoy creating a catalog of labels for characters, institutions... from Servants to Warders to Folk to Younglings to Foxes to Snakes to Dragons and so on. He also does the same labeling to objects, from Kitchens to Caves to Docks to Wagons and so on.

Creating these layers of labels allow an author to interconnect aspects of the story together in a pleasing manner. It's like going from a piano solo to orchestra. More instruments can add a greater depth of feeling to a work. More labels if carefully used in a novel, can add a much greater sense of feeling to a work's conclusion.

Labels are strings, horns, drums and woodwinds in a metaphorical sense. Jordan wrote to a rhythm of sounds and labels.

Sei'taer
09-28-2011, 08:55 AM
That made even less sense than the cape/cloak thing you were pushing a few months back and which turned out to be incorrect.

Cross-Country running and smoking don't mix.
CC and T&F athletes have other interests.

So it finally comes out. Blood doping is incredibly bad for the mind and kidneys. You should have opted out.

I have a feeling you write like that on purpose. It's so convoluted that you can say it means anything and claim to be correct no matter what comes out. It's getting incredibly old and boring.

I don't agree with Terez very much, but I agree that you are patently insane.

ShadowbaneX
09-28-2011, 10:04 AM
:mad: GIT :D

i would put him on ignore but i havent figured out how to do it that yet.

Trying to learn Solitary Man on my Guitar has taken priority but i will get it done eventually

Go to User CP. On the left side bar under "Settings & Options" last entry is "Edit Ignore list".

Terez
09-28-2011, 10:11 AM
Alternatively, you can go to their profile and add them to your ignore list from there (add user to lists or something).

I've only got one person on my ignore list right now, and it's not Felix. That's kind of sad.

Crispin's Crispian
09-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Guess you have not raised the possibility that one Lan's only distant surviving relatives might include Valan Luca? It's a question of where has Isam, Luc and Lan's sperm have visited to?

Who did Ila have sex with? Lan? Luc? Or did imagination and thought alone create Valan's very being?

Well, it's not exactly a burning question to anyone else. Let's say it's not intuitively obvious that Luc could be Luca's father.

For arguments sake let's say, Luca's father was Luc. So how is Luc at all related to Lan? They are not related directly related as far as I know, however the Dark One did and could have make them extended family members when he combined Isam and Luc souls to one being. Slayer. For argument's sake. Can you elaborate one more time, or point me to the post where you elaborate, on how Ila and Luc hooked up to give birth to Luca?

Khoram
09-28-2011, 11:01 AM
*sigh* I see an update on this thread, and what do I find? One of Felix's massive theories on Luca. Somehow concerning Lan. Next week we'll find out that whoever's the CotW has ties to Luca, as well. :confused: I can't wait for AMoL to come out so wecan finally put this to rest. :/

ShadowbaneX
09-28-2011, 11:05 AM
are they getting tired or are you mellowing?

Sei'taer
09-28-2011, 12:55 PM
Well, it's not exactly a burning question to anyone else. Let's say it's not intuitively obvious that Luc could be Luca's father.

For argument's sake. Can you elaborate one more time, or point me to the post where you elaborate, on how Ila and Luc hooked up to give birth to Luca?

You want elaboration...seriously? After all that mess?

Crispin's Crispian
09-28-2011, 02:00 PM
You want elaboration...seriously? After all that mess?

Well...yeah. Maybe this isn't the thread for it.

subwoofer
09-29-2011, 06:37 PM
Gah! It's been a while and the wonders of this site have not changed...

I'm skipping over the Russian novels, seems like somebody's got a whack of spare time on their hands.:rolleyes:

Anyways, Lan- I'm still reeling from the "Lan is a secondary character" line. Sure he's not one of the OG TR folk, but RJ did do a prequel featuring him, and RJ did say something to the effect... As for who I think is most like me, Lan embodies the ideals that I aspired to growing up

Great Captain? Well I'm going to point out that Bryne is a Great Captain. Ranking them is just shades of grey. On any given Sunday...

Lan does have enough of a grasp of tactics to know good from bad, and has been around the block. His trip to the Gap- folly. Folks know that the Shadow is amassing an army there. Unless Lan has a magic potion that gives the bearer superhuman strength or some such, he's in for a long day.

Reading TGS I'd say Lan was basically cannon fodder. Rand was going to use him and lose him. My only hope was that Lan managed to knock boots with Nynaeve so his line continues.

Post ToM with Rand coming down the mountain from his talk with the burning bush, I'd say Lan's chances look good. I think it's a safe bet that Rand gateways an army or Asha'man or something in the nick of time.

FelixPax
09-30-2011, 12:18 AM
Lan does have enough of a grasp of tactics to know good from bad, and has been around the block. His trip to the Gap- folly. Folks know that the Shadow is amassing an army there. Unless Lan has a magic potion that gives the bearer superhuman strength or some such, he's in for a long day.

Reading TGS I'd say Lan was basically cannon fodder. Rand was going to use him and lose him. My only hope was that Lan managed to knock boots with Nynaeve so his line continues.

Post ToM with Rand coming down the mountain from his talk with the burning bush, I'd say Lan's chances look good. I think it's a safe bet that Rand gateways an army or Asha'man or something in the nick of time.


Yes, there's a chance Lan might be saved from a flesh death in the Blight, because a vow he freely give to Nynaeve in Fal Dara. Perhaps, Nynaeve could send Logain to Lan in the nick of time? Logain does respect Nynaeve for healing him.

There's been hints that Lan and Logain have had a past history with each other, but the particular details haven't been mentioned in the story yet. It was referred to in TEOTW and KoD books.

kabkaba
09-30-2011, 12:11 PM
*sigh* I see an update on this thread, and what do I find? One of Felix's massive theories on Luca. Somehow concerning Lan. Next week we'll find out that whoever's the CotW has ties to Luca, as well. :confused: I can't wait for AMoL to come out so wecan finally put this to rest. :/

I don't think it will ever be put to rest. We have already seen hints of how Brandon may be corrupting the original RJ manuscript to make Luca a nobody. Brandon may need more coercion to get back on track towards the true story.

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 12:15 PM
Brandon may be corrupting the original RJ manuscript to make Luca a nobody.
HAHAHHA

Have Youngling Rep!

You can't kill an idea!

confused at birth
10-04-2011, 09:55 PM
I've only got one person on my ignore list right now, and it's not Felix. That's kind of sad.

is it me?

if no why not?:D

Zombie Sammael
10-05-2011, 06:04 AM
is it me?

if no why not?:D

Don't feel bad. I had you on my ignore list for a little while.

Toss the dice
10-15-2011, 01:31 PM
I also think Lan & co will be saved or get massive reinforcements in the nick of time. Everything points to it, Rand promised he would send help, and helping Lan seems to be one of his top priorities as ToM left off. Really, it seems to be about his only priority, besides dealing with Egwene and the Last Battle.

I would be very surprised, and even shocked if no help was sent to Tarwin's Gap. I can't visualize AMoL playing out where that DOESN'T happen. The only thing in doubt there is whether Lan survives.

Enigma
10-17-2011, 08:49 AM
I'm curious what is the view among posters here on Lan's situation. Do people think its a brave last stand (leaving out last minture outside intervention) or is it a stupid waste of men.

I don't have the books in front of me right now but from memory Lan has between 10,000 and 20,000 soldiers and they are facing 150,000+. At best they will slow down the shadow forces but not by a lot. We are not talking the last stand of the spartans here, the valley is not that narrow. If they could hold up the shadow army for several days aka Sparta I could see the value of it but throwing away their lives in what seems like a doomed venture for a nation that is dead and will be deader (if that is possible) after the last Malkier die with Lan, that seems questionable.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 09:42 AM
In a last stand one is supposed to, you know ... stand.

What Lan seems to be doing is start a charge. That means that his army will be pulled apart, as the quicker units get ahead of the slower ones. Then they will get lost in the enemy forces, and it will be a general melee. Which, if you're the one that is outnumbered badly, is not a good idea at all. It could all be over in half an hour, if no help appears.

Toss the dice
10-17-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm curious what is the view among posters here on Lan's situation. Do people think its a brave last stand (leaving out last minture outside intervention) or is it a stupid waste of men.

I don't have the books in front of me right now but from memory Lan has between 10,000 and 20,000 soldiers and they are facing 150,000+. At best they will slow down the shadow forces but not by a lot. We are not talking the last stand of the spartans here, the valley is not that narrow. If they could hold up the shadow army for several days aka Sparta I could see the value of it but throwing away their lives in what seems like a doomed venture for a nation that is dead and will be deader (if that is possible) after the last Malkier die with Lan, that seems questionable.

I thought it was foolish and a waste of 1 man when Lan decided he needed to go to Malkier when he and Nynaeve were talking about the Trolloc hordes sweeping down through Malkier. The more logical, smart thing for him to do would be to simply not go, to wait and see what happens, protect Nynaeve, etc. But essentially dying in Malkier has been Lan's destiny for decades now, at least as far as he is concerned.

Now, Lan intended on going alone, but that's not the way it turned out. He didn't count on Nynaeve organizing thousands of men to follow him. So at least partially, the fact that they joined him unwillingly (to him), makes it not his fault. On the other hand, from their perspective as ToM left off, all they're really going to accomplish is getting themselves killed, along with a relatively insignificant number of Trollocs, at least considering the big picture. Really, the whole thing is kind of stupid from Lan's perspective, and from everyone involved's perspective too. But I can understand how they got there.

However (and this is a big however), everything points to Lan & co being saved, or at the least not letting them die in vain. At worst, they will die but will strike a mighty blow at the Shadow. This is a fictional book series after all, and everything is set up for it, quite aside from Rand's promises to help them.

To sum up, I do think it is a foolish waste of men, even goddamn stupid of Lan and those following him. He had to suspect that Nynaeve would play an integral part in the Last Battle, or at the very least be very much involved and could use a Warder. But he is playing out his "destiny," while at the same time setting up a good plotline for himself and those with him for the Last Battle. All in all, however stupid the seemingly suicide march is, it is hardly surprising, to the point where it is downright expected.

Ishara
10-19-2011, 01:42 PM
Lan is one of the best characters in the series, in my opinion. But his death is hardly inevitable at this point.

We have to remember that Min only sees visions of the fture - not the past. And she saw a vision of a baby (among other things) relevant to Nynaeve and Lan. And yes, you could posit that she's pregnant right now, but we haven't got enough time in the remaining series to prove it. We also know that Min saw the Seven Towers, which to me indicates that Lan and Nynaeve together will rebuild Malkier.

Rand's newfound ability to go with the flow and direct events with compassion means that he will not leave his friend to die. He didn't do it in Far Madding, and he won't do it here.

The Unreasoner
10-19-2011, 02:22 PM
Rand's newfound ability to go with the flow and direct events with compassion means that he will not leave his friend to die. He didn't do it in Far Madding, and he won't do it here.
I agree. And also telling, in my opinion, is the Rand POV in the Epilogue. He is, at this point, prepared to go to Shayol Ghul. Presumably he has taken as much as he can off his to-do list. We aren't sure where exactly the relative timelines are for Lan and Rand. And the Black Tower
(and even Caemlyn). Although the Black Tower is certainly somewhat behind.

I find it hard to believe that Rand is all set to break the Seals and assault Shayol Ghul (where he very likely expects to die) without having sent aid to Lan. (I also think that he would have wanted the issue at the Black Tower resolved, but even though I think that Rand will at least believe that the Black Tower is taken care of before the confrontation at Merrilor (and I think the timeline allows the possibility) I am aware that some doubt this).

professorskar
02-09-2012, 09:57 PM
I'm relatively new to these forums, so I hate to derail this thread after it's just gotten back on track, but I have to know. Is Felix for real? Is he just trolling for the lulz, or is this some sort of in-joke I'm not aware of?

Sorry, I just have a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that someone actually cares that much (at all for that matter) about Valan Luca.

suttree
02-10-2012, 01:05 AM
I'm relatively new to these forums, so I hate to derail this thread after it's just gotten back on track, but I have to know. Is Felix for real? Is he just trolling for the lulz, or is this some sort of in-joke I'm not aware of?

Sorry, I just have a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that someone actually cares that much (at all for that matter) about Valan Luca.

Oh he is all too real professorskar. That is what makes it so unbelievably epic. I will say this, if you are willing to search through the chaff, occasionally he will have unearthed something key you have completely missed. It will be totally unrelated to whatever he is trying to prove of course but it can lead to some light bulb moments for things you have been thinking about.