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Zombie Sammael
09-28-2011, 04:45 PM
An important moment in #AMoL centers on one character turning to another and asking, "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?" How much indeed.

This should be some fuel to get the wild speculation going. My guess is it has to do with peacemaking with the Seanchan. If Mat's as key to that as we think, the question of how trustworthy he is will be one that is asked by Aes Sedai, Rand, Egwene, Kings and Queens the world over, and perhaps even Aiel.

An exciting tidbit, indeed.

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 04:49 PM
My guess is someone affiliated with the WT. If it were a Seanchan, they would have called him Matrim.

Crispin's Crispian
09-28-2011, 04:54 PM
My guess is someone affiliated with the WT. If it were a Seanchan, they would have called him Matrim.

Agreed, at least insofar as it's not Seanchan.

First guess is Faile to Perrin, but it may also be Silviana to Egwene.

Zombie Sammael
09-28-2011, 04:55 PM
My guess is someone affiliated with the WT. If it were a Seanchan, they would have called him Matrim.

The use of the name "Mat" rather than "Matrim" does rather imply someone who knows him well, but I think if it's a question of whether you trust Mat, it has to be a question of whether a truce is in everyone's best interests. Otherwise, the only logical prospect seems to be that someone is questioning his military skills, which no-one who called him "Mat" would do.

Weiramon
09-28-2011, 06:54 PM
but it may also be Silviana to Egwene.

Aye, and rumour has it that this Cauthon lout may be heading to the Tower to collect something that . . . belongs . . . to him. Although it is impossible to imagine anything of importance that they would entrust to him.

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 07:08 PM
This should be some fuel to get the wild speculation going. My guess is it has to do with peacemaking with the Seanchan. If Mat's as key to that as we think, the question of how trustworthy he is will be one that is asked by Aes Sedai, Rand, Egwene, Kings and Queens the world over, and perhaps even Aiel.

An exciting tidbit, indeed.


It's not an earthshaking clue at all, which Brandon Sanderson gave. It just fits the story's narrative like a glove. I'm just happy it sounds like Brandon is on the right track.


Questions of Trust have been a key issue across the whole series, whether one calls them a promise, oath, vow, treaty, contract, a person's word or love.

A bunch of individuals lives in the end, I think will literally depend on Matrim Cauthon's Trust. That's why Brandon brings it up.

Off hand I know many excellent candidates who could have this particular conversation... but why list those all, when many HCFF's have been getting "bitchy" and "mean-spirited" towards myself of late?

Terez
09-28-2011, 07:36 PM
It's not an earthshaking clue at all, which Brandon Sanderson gave.
Agreed.

:eek:

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 07:44 PM
Definitely not nearly as earthshaking as Terez agreeing with Felix.


Anyway I think Weiramon & co. have the right of it.

Janduin
09-28-2011, 08:27 PM
My money is on: Min, speaking to Rand; RE: Seanchan.

Davian93
09-28-2011, 08:31 PM
My money is on: Min, speaking to Rand; RE: Seanchan.


Rand trusts him implicitly...And Min should know it. Rand even trusted him implicitly in his Evil/Angry Rand phase when Tuon had the gall to criticize Mat to him.

I doubt Min would bother asking. I could see someone asking Egwene or Elayne that question though.

Kimon
09-28-2011, 08:55 PM
My money is on: Min, speaking to Rand; RE: Seanchan.

Demandred: "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?"
Bashere: "He's unpredictable, but I think I know what he will do."
Demandred: "Good. Make sure that Talmanes arranges accidents for Moiraine and Merrilin as well."

Khoram
09-28-2011, 09:10 PM
Rand trusts him implicitly...And Min should know it. Rand even trusted him implicitly in his Evil/Angry Rand phase when Tuon had the gall to criticize Mat to him.

I doubt Min would bother asking. I could see someone asking Egwene or Elayne that question though.

Or Egwene asking Rand that. Sure, she knows that he trusts Mat, but if it has anything to do with the Seanchan, then she would rather have nothing whatsoever to do with it, and wouldn't trust Mat at all. Not that she really trusts him, anyways. Not that I've noticed.

Sei'taer
09-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Off hand I know many excellent candidates who could have this particular conversation... but why list those all, when many HCFF's have been getting "bitchy" and "mean-spirited" towards myself of late?

Off hand, I think most of us can figure out the pertinent candidates all by ourselves, without indentions and weird off the wall quotes and inane off topic questions.

An important moment in #AMoL centers on one character turning to another and asking, "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?" How much indeed.

I figure it's someone asking Egwene. Possibly Siuan, or even Bryne. Sounds more like a Bryne question to me, really.

Davian93
09-28-2011, 09:42 PM
For starters, I think we should list the possibilities that have been mentioned:


Silviana to Egwene
Min to Rand
Faile to Perrin
Demandred to Bashere
Valan Luca to his Cape
Siuan to Egwene
Bryne to Egwene

There are also several possibilities as to what it could be concerning:


Mat and the Horn
Mat and the Seanchan
Mat and the Band
Mat saving Camelyn
Mat and Valan Luca's Cape


Thoughts?

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 09:46 PM
And the thread reaches its natural conclusion:

A HotH wantonly using the indent function, rendering future speculation futile.

Sei'taer
09-28-2011, 09:53 PM
For starters, I think we should list the possibilities that have been mentioned:


Silviana to Egwene
Min to Rand
Faile to Perrin
Demandred to Bashere
Valan Luca to his Cape
Siuan to Egwene
Bryne to Egwene

There are also several possibilities as to what it could be concerning:


Mat and the Horn
Mat and the Seanchan
Mat and the Band
Mat saving Camelyn
Mat and Valan Luca's Cape


Thoughts?

It could be Mat and Luca's cloak too. Or Luca's cloak questioning Luca...or Dark Luca questioning light Luca. God, the possibilities are endless!!

Rand al'Fain
09-28-2011, 11:17 PM
WRONG! It's Bela talking to the ghost of Narg!


But I think it more than likely pertains to a peace talk and Mat being sent as a representative of the Seanchan and an advisor is discussing it with Eggy or Eggy with Rand (due to Eggy's extreme hatred of anything Seanchan).

finnssss
09-29-2011, 12:33 AM
Gawyn to Egwene is my best guess.

Usually, only men call him Mat and it's definitely not any Seanchan. Only Tuon calls him by name and she uses Matrim, other Seanchan would call him Highness and certainly not by his full name.

Have to agree with some others so far that this isn't that earthshaking at this point.

Rand al'Fain
09-29-2011, 03:34 AM
Gawyn to Egwene is my best guess.

Usually, only men call him Mat and it's definitely not any Seanchan. Only Tuon calls him by name and she uses Matrim, other Seanchan would call him Highness and certainly not by his full name.

Have to agree with some others so far that this isn't that earthshaking at this point.
Agreed, not earthshaking, as pretty much everyone saw this in one scenario or another. I am curious to the context of it though.

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2011, 06:08 AM
It could be the Sea Folk who're getting involved. They too have encountered master Cauthon, remember.
Moiraine calls him Mat Cauthon in her "dearest Thom" letter.
And, of course, it could be Lanfear/Cyndane. That'd be interesting, wouldn't it?

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 09:20 AM
So, what I've learned is two things:

1. It could be nearly anyone who has ever met or even heard of Mat, talking to anyone else who has ever met or even heard of Mat.

2. Theorylanders are more interested in discussing what they think will happen in AMOL than what will actually happen in AMOL.

Sarevok
09-29-2011, 09:27 AM
1. It could be nearly anyone who has ever met or even heard of Mat, talking to anyone else who has ever met or even heard of Mat.
Not quite true. Any Aiel would have said "Matrim Cauthon" and his friends from the Two Rivers or officers of the Band would have just said "Mat". So that leaves mostly Aes Sedai and some random nobles.

Sei'taer
09-29-2011, 10:01 AM
2. Theorylanders are more interested in discussing what they think will happen in AMOL than what will actually happen in AMOL.

Why would we want to talk about what will actually happen when we can theorize about what we think will happen?

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2011, 10:28 AM
Maybe it would be more useful to start from the other side, as Sare has already been doing.

It won't be one of his friends from the TR speaking to another, as then they would use "Mat". Might use "Mat Cauthon" when speaking to an AS or something, though.

It won't be someone from the Band.
They would use either "Lord Mat" or "Mat". Plus, none of them would worry about his trustworthiness.

It won't be an Aiel.
They would probably call him Matrim Cauthon, and wouldn't worry about his trustworthiness either.

It probably won't be a Sea Folk person.
If it is, then the question would be asked of another SFie, and the answer would be that he was trustworthy. The Windfinders who he freed would spread that tale. And those he dragged off to Caemlyn would stress that he kept his promises, while keeping very vague about the exact nature of their deal.

Quite a few AS would trust him too, by now.
Others might still have doubts, though.

For the Seanchan there's only one relevant person to ask the question.
And I don't think she would wonder about that question anymore.

I don't think Thom and Moiraine qualify either.

So that leaves Weiramon, I think.
Did I miss anyone else?

Terez
09-29-2011, 10:29 AM
2. Theorylanders are more interested in discussing what they think will happen in AMOL than what will actually happen in AMOL.
In this case, there's just no difference between the two.

Isabel
09-29-2011, 10:41 AM
Remember all: How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?


This is probably a first draft from Brandon. That could mean that it's later corrected in Matrim or Lord Mat. :D

kabkaba
09-29-2011, 10:41 AM
I'm just happy it sounds like Brandon is on the right track.


I don't think BS has any room to leave the track that RJ set.

Sarevok
09-29-2011, 11:06 AM
Remember all:

This is probably a first draft from Brandon. That could mean that it's later corrected in Matrim or Lord Mat. :D

I could be, but discussing that would be no fun. :D

Davian93
09-29-2011, 11:10 AM
My guess is that its the Dark One to Bela:

Dark One: WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?
Bela: ~whinies~
Dark One: HOW MUCH DO YOU TRUST MAT CAUTHON???
Bela: ~whinies and stomps hoof twice~
Dark One: THEN LISTEN AND OBEY!

WinespringBrother
09-29-2011, 11:11 AM
Remember all:

This is probably a first draft from Brandon. That could mean that it's later corrected in Matrim or Lord Mat. :D

or Master Cauthon! lol I did a search and "Mat Cauthon" doesn't appear in the last 2 books, save the glossary and Moiraine's letter.

My guess is the speaker is either Moiraine, Thom or one of the Aiel. Or maybe Leilwin.

Sei'taer
09-29-2011, 11:35 AM
My guess is that its the Dark One to Bela:

Dark One: WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?
Bela: ~whinies~
Dark One: HOW MUCH DO YOU TRUST MAT CAUTHON???
Bela: ~whinies and stomps hoof twice~
Dark One: THEN LISTEN AND OBEY!

NEIGH'BELA'IS is the more correct version.

Good thing there's no cape on that horse or there'd be problems...big problems.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 12:06 PM
It's not just about who it is directed towards. The more interesting question is why is Mat Cauthon's trustworthiness in doubt? Brandon said this was a pivotal scene. Admittedly, one will tell us the other, but analysing it from both perspectives will get us to more solid conclusions.

Or we could just go back to discussing what would happen if you balefired the sun and slagging Felix off, if you prefer.

Terez
09-29-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't care what you discuss. Certainly I don't care if you want to fire off pointless guesses about who is talking to who in said scene. Again, nothing new has been revealed; there are plenty of people inclined to dismiss Mat as unimportant, so the question of the apparent lack of trust is less surprising than the rest of it. (Which is to say, not at all.)

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't care what you discuss. Certainly I don't care if you want to fire off pointless guesses about who is talking to who in said scene. Again, nothing new has been revealed; there are plenty of people inclined to dismiss Mat as unimportant, so the question of the apparent lack of trust is less surprising than the rest of it. (Which is to say, not at all.)

Of course, Terez says it's not important! Silly me for thinking that an actual line from AMOL about a major character from the books might have some significance to coming up with, say, some THEORIES! But if Terez can't see the importance of this, obviously I'm over-analysing it. Stupid Gnat for trying to contribute. Back to the in-jokes it is!

Crispin's Crispian
09-29-2011, 12:48 PM
Of course, Terez says it's not important! Silly me for thinking that an actual line from AMOL about a major character from the books might have some significance to coming up with, say, some THEORIES! But if Terez can't see the importance of this, obviously I'm over-analysing it. Stupid Gnat for trying to contribute. Back to the in-jokes it is!

Try indenting. That will get more attention.

But seriously, I think it's fun to theorize about, but it's super-vague. I don't really care that it's not earthshaking--it's something from the dialogue which is fun to discuss.

For some of us. For others...well they don't have to participate in the thread, right?

Weiramon
09-29-2011, 01:00 PM
My guess is that its the Dark One to Bela:

Dark One: WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?
Bela: ~whinies~
Dark One: HOW MUCH DO YOU TRUST MAT CAUTHON???
Bela: ~whinies and stomps hoof twice~
Dark One: THEN LISTEN AND OBEY!

Burn me, this should add to your reputation!

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2011, 01:01 PM
The only reason why Terez doesn't like it is that it totally wrecks her "Rand will be killed before facing the DO" theory.

Terez
09-29-2011, 01:02 PM
Of course, Terez says it's not important! Silly me for thinking that an actual line from AMOL about a major character from the books might have some significance to coming up with, say, some THEORIES! But if Terez can't see the importance of this, obviously I'm over-analysing it. Stupid Gnat for trying to contribute. Back to the in-jokes it is!
Like I said, I don't care if you think it's important or if you want to discuss it. You're the one that was complaining about people's opinions; no one was obstructing your conversation at all.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 01:23 PM
Try indenting. That will get more attention.

But seriously, I think it's fun to theorize about, but it's super-vague. I don't really care that it's not earthshaking--it's something from the dialogue which is fun to discuss.

For some of us. For others...well they don't have to participate in the thread, right?

But this is my point - actually, it is earth-shaking. It's Mat, who is important not only to the victory of the Light at Tarmon Gai'don, but also (apparently) key to peace with the Seanchan - and the continued stability of the world's largest empire, which lest we forget, is currently in ruins apart from the Return. To top off all of that off, we have Brandon saying it is a key scene in the book. So what we have been given, small though it may be, is an actual line of dialogue from a key scene in the final book of the series. Forgive me for finding that exciting.

Now, as I said before, the question of who is talking to who is (to my mind) equally important as the question of what, specifically, they are talking about; Mat Cauthon and trust, obviously, but there are only a certain number of key things that I can think of that would warrant the question of how trustworthy he is. To whit: cannons, the Last Battle, and the Seanchan.

What we have is a duality between familiarity and a degree of trust. That duality might allow us to glean important insights into plot points in AMOL, and guessing plot points in future books is what we do.

It seems unlikely that anyone involved with the Last Battle is likely both to call Mat "Mat" rather than "Master Cauthon", "Lord Mat", "Matrim Cauthon", or any other of the more formal names, and also question his trustworthiness. There is no question of any trust issue between himself and Rand, who is obviously the key player in the Last Battle; Bashere, who is also likely to be key, also knows him well, having worked with him, and seems unlikely to doubt his trustworthiness. True, it could be a random AS to Egwene, but we know that this is a key scene from the final book, not some random aside, so I think it's less than likely to Egwene in the context of the Last Battle (although Egwene is still a candidate, as I'll go into below).

Those involved with cannons (Elayne, Birgitte, the "Caemlyn group") know him well, and unless addressing him in a formal setting would use the name "Mat" - Elayne calls him "Mat" several times when they are travelling together. Birgitte to Elayne does seem likely when considering this scenario, but again, key scene. I can't imagine Elayne would quibble over allowing the use of cannons to defend Caemlyn from a Trolloc attack or to fight Shadowspawn in the Blight, let alone in such a manner to be key.

That leaves the Seanchan. And if it's about the Seanchan, that seems like a big deal to me, because the context implies that some sort of truce will be necessary. All of the above candidates - and indeed any other candidates (apart from the Forsaken to Bela, or Felix to his cape, etc) - come back into play if this is a question about the Seanchan. Most characters in the books still consider Seanchan to be equal if not a greater threat than the Shadow. Only Mat is likely to say, "No, they have problems, but they are a powerful ally." Equally, if it refers to Tuon - who is unlikely to call him "Mat", I grant - the question of trust could be a major one if he's demanding an end to the a'dam.

This is a bombshell, because to my mind, from the context, it seems pretty clear that it lends a great amount of weight to the theory that there will be a permanent truce with the Seanchan - essentially confirms it, which no amount of foreshadowing or extrapolating can do. So far we've guessed, but to my mind this essentially confirms it. That, at the very least, is ammo for some of the more popular theories out there, about how the Last Battle will go down, Randland after the fight, and the AS and the Seanchan.

Even ignoring all that theorising, I think to be given a line like this and be told it's a key scene from the most important book in the series is a big deal, and it is a bombshell, and I think those dismissing it would do well to think again.

Weiramon
09-29-2011, 01:33 PM
This is a bombshell, because to my mind, from the context, it seems pretty clear that it lends a great amount of weight to the theory that there will be a permanent truce with the Seanchan

Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear that this Cauthon lout was chasing skirts among the scullery maids in the Kitchens of the White Tower, and they would not even entrust him with a flagon, or a pestle, or even a horn.

st122
09-29-2011, 02:04 PM
It might even be Mat talking to someone else just before he takes the Horn or talks to Tuon.

It would be a great piece of deception by BS if it turns out to be Mat referring to himself.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 02:20 PM
It might even be Mat talking to someone else just before he takes the Horn or talks to Tuon.

It would be a great piece of deception by BS if it turns out to be Mat referring to himself.

That I like. It sounds like the sort of thing Mat would say to someone, too.

Davian93
09-29-2011, 02:42 PM
Mat: We need to consummate this marriage for the Truce to take effect.
Tuon: Fine, but i still think you should wear a condom.
Mat: Come on Baby, How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?
Tuon: Oh alright...

Sei'taer
09-29-2011, 03:36 PM
Mat: We need to consummate this marriage for the Truce to take effect.
Tuon: Fine, but i still think you should wear a condom.
Mat: Come on Baby, How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?
Tuon: Oh alright...

"...Selucia, keep an eye on him and make sure he does things right..."

Juan
09-29-2011, 03:38 PM
Mat: Olver, I am your father.
Olver: Nooooooo!!!!!!
Mat: how much do you trust Mat Cauthon?

Tamyrlin
09-29-2011, 06:00 PM
Of course, Terez says it's not important! Silly me for thinking that an actual line from AMOL about a major character from the books might have some significance to coming up with, say, some THEORIES! But if Terez can't see the importance of this, obviously I'm over-analysing it. Stupid Gnat for trying to contribute. Back to the in-jokes it is!

Things I've learned:

1. Zombie can't help but make everything about Terez.

2. Davian can be hilarious.

This.

DO: WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?
Bela: ~whinies~
DO: HOW MUCH DO YOU TRUST MAT CAUTHON???
Bela: ~whinies and stomps hoof twice~
DO: THEN LISTEN AND OBEY!

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 06:50 PM
I can't say I'm surprised that this thread reached three pages with the majority of the posts concerning the necessity of the thread itself. In fact, I Foretold the futility of further discussion on page one:

And the thread reaches its natural conclusion:

A HotH wantonly using the indent function, rendering future speculation futile.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I can't say I'm surprised that this thread reached three pages with the majority of the posts concerning the necessity of the thread itself. In fact, I Foretold the futility of further discussion on page one:

Frankly, I'm still staggered that when Brandon posts lines from an important scene of the final book of the series, there is a debate as to the necessity of a thread. But there you go; as I said before, most of TL would rather discuss what it thinks will happen in AMOL than what actually will happen in AMOL.

Tamyrlin
09-29-2011, 07:36 PM
Frankly, I'm still staggered that when Brandon posts lines from an important scene of the final book of the series, there is a debate as to the necessity of a thread. But there you go; as I said before, most of TL would rather discuss what it thinks will happen in AMOL than what actually will happen in AMOL.

I'm still staggered that when Terez doesn't agree with Zombie, that Zombie would rather debate Terez lack of interest in his idea than actually what is happening in his thread.

Sei'taer
09-29-2011, 07:37 PM
Frankly, I'm still staggered that when Brandon posts lines from an important scene of the final book of the series, there is a debate as to the necessity of a thread. But there you go; as I said before, most of TL would rather discuss what it thinks will happen in AMOL than what actually will happen in AMOL.

Did you start this thread?

This should be some fuel to get the wild speculation going. My guess is it has to do with peacemaking with the Seanchan. If Mat's as key to that as we think, the question of how trustworthy he is will be one that is asked by Aes Sedai, Rand, Egwene, Kings and Queens the world over, and perhaps even Aiel.

Ah yes, you did.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 07:39 PM
I'm still staggered that when Terez doesn't agree with Zombie, that Zombie would rather debate Terez lack of interest in his idea than actually what is happening in his thread.

I'm slightly staggered that the owner of the board appears to be trying to call me on something that I was perfectly happy, having said my piece, to ignore and move on, having posted my spiel about why I think it was important and started discussing with other users the topic of the thread I started.

But what's really heartbreaking about the whole thing is that I wasted my thousandth post in an aside to the Unreasoner. :(

Davian93
09-29-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm slightly staggered too...though probably because I've been drinking.

Tamyrlin
09-29-2011, 07:44 PM
I'm slightly staggered that the owner of the board appears to be trying to call me on something that I was perfectly happy, having said my piece, to ignore and move on, having posted my spiel about why I think it was important and started discussing with other users the topic of the thread I started.

But what's really heartbreaking about the whole thing is that I wasted my thousandth post in an aside to the Unreasoner. :(

...that you consider an aside to Unreasoner a waste.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 07:44 PM
Nevermind. If you can't beat em, join em.

It's Tamyrlin talking to me.

Tamyrlin
09-29-2011, 07:50 PM
Your point being?

I'm not exactly anti-Theoryland or you guys. I'm just a little upset that when I saw something on Twitter, rushed to post here before anyone else did, and hoped for some real excitement about a nugget of information from AMOL - which is what we all claim to be so desperate to find - the best anyone could come up with for speculation was in-jokes about Bela. I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, but I'd just hoped for a bit more of the "srs bsns" kind of fun and a bit less of the "Shayol Ghul Gazette" sort. Maybe it's just me, but I'd think we'd be able to generate something more interesting and speculative than a mere dismissal of what the author of the book calls "important". Whatever Tam says, it wasn't about Terez, or not solely about Terez, either. I'm just disappointed. It makes me wonder whether, when I finish the reread and get round to posting theories properly, there will be any real point.

It's a fun question, which is why I think everyone is having fun with it (well, at least most of TL). And with just a small measure more of context there might be something we could come up with that really works as far as a theory goes. I'd rather see us come up with a second question Brandon would answer, something that would give us more context without answering the larger question. Such as, does the person that says this come from the Two Rivers or has visited the Two Rivers? Or something like that. It would still leave it open to a bunch of people, while narrowing the field a bit. (Actually, just tweeted that question...we'll see if he is willing to answer.)

I have a hard time believing Brandon would bald faced give us what amounts to a blatant: Mat will seal the deal with the Seanchan answer. But I could be wrong.

Crispin's Crispian
09-29-2011, 07:58 PM
I'm slightly staggered too...though probably because I've been drinking.

You are on FIRE today!

You've inspired me to get a little drunk tonight.

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 08:01 PM
1000 is only meaningful if you have ten fingers.

Free your mind of the base-10 prison.

And of course, an aside to me is never to be regretted.

Brita
09-29-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm slightly staggered too...though probably because I've been drinking.

Ah- then this ^ might explain this:

Mat: We need to consummate this marriage for the Truce to take effect.
Tuon: Fine, but i still think you should wear a condom.
Mat: Come on Baby, How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?
Tuon: Oh alright...

although I still laughed...

Terez
09-29-2011, 08:21 PM
The only reason why Terez doesn't like it is that it totally wrecks her "Rand will be killed before facing the DO" theory.
Missed this one. Care to explain that? (I don't know why I bother to ask, since I know you're just trolling me...I guess I just want to make you work for your trolling rather than allow you to drop random, lazy drive-by comments.)

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 08:29 PM
I'm not sure it was 'trolling' as much as it was just a joke. The statement was probably nonsense, but it played on the open-ended nature of the thread. And it managed to rope you into a thread you had written off.

I laughed.

FelixPax
09-29-2011, 08:34 PM
The more interesting question is why is Mat Cauthon's trustworthiness in doubt? Brandon said this was a pivotal scene.


I strongly think this pivotal scene is a set-up, for a bunch of individual deciding to bet on Mat Cauthon's trustworthiness to save their from death at the hands of the Seanchan Empire. They'll walk to the Seanchan and allow themselves to become prisoners. Their freedom and hope to win the Last Battle depends on Mat's trustworthiness, and his ties to Fortuona.


If Cauthon breaks his Word, his Trust, his Promises, guess what will happen to them?

Hangmen are going to get paid. Fortuona's will kill her rivals. Just as the Seanchan killed the Sea Folk Mistress of Ships, Master of Blades in Ebou Dar. Just as the Seanchan hung up the King of Tarabon. Death is the end.


Gareth Bryne, Siuan, Birgitte, Bethamin Zeami, Leilwin Shipless, the Sea Folk & Kinswomen all know what can happen, if trust is lost. Death.


Morgase should have a very significant role to play, all told.


Morgase's prior scene's in Amador when the Seanchan Empire invaded, provide a good amount of foreshadowing actually. Robert Jordan's imagery is particularly awesome in that chapter.
As does Siuan's prior comments about what Morgase would do, if she learned Rand al'Thor was a False Dragon.
Then there's triangle set of tensions found in the Mother-Daughter-Nurse relationships, of Morgase-Elayne-Lini.
Morgase and Lini together can push Elayne to wed Matrim Cauthon. In essence, to paraphrase one of Thom's line's: 'The Queen is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.' One as in married.
On top of this, in Aiel culture when a Chief dies, his wife can speak for the Clan(s). When Rand al'Thor dies, who gains this position? Elayne, Min and Aviendha in the eyes of the Aiel Clans. This is a story parallel of Sevanna's prior situation with the Shaido Aiel Clan.
On top of that, Aviendha once gave an Pledge to Birgitte to obey her as an apprentice to mistress. Birgitte's has major leverage over Aviendha.


“She’s still there,” Birgitte said grimly after a moment. “Step out of my way, Min Farshaw,” she said, pulling her arm free, “or—”

“Oosquai!” Aviendha voice rose desperately, and she was actually wringing her hands! “I know where there is oosquai! If you are drunk . . . Please, Birgitte! I . . . I will pledge myself to obey you, as apprentice to mistress, but please do not interrupt her! Do not shame her so!”

“Oosquai?” Birgitte mused, rubbing her jaw. “Is that anything like brandy? Hmm. I think the girl is blushing! She really is prim most of the time, you know. A joke, you said?” Suddenly she grinned, and spread her arms expansively. “Lead me to this oosquai of yours, Aviendha. I don’t know about you two, but I intend to get drunk enough to . . . well . . . to take off my clothes and dance on the table. And not a hair drunker.”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 12 "A Lily in Winter" -- Min point of view, with Aviendha, Birgitte in Caemlyn Palace

Aviendha is a Wise One yes, who's subject to Birgitte's will as a Master.

Of course, Min still owes a debt to Gareth Bryne. Ditto, Siuan and Leane. :D
Who's really in charge of many nations, immediately after Rand dies? Gareth Bryne, Birgitte, Morgase & Lini. By Nations, I mean: Cairhien, Andor, Tar Valon's Army, Aes Sedai Novices & Accepted, Andor Queen's Guards, Eleven Aiel Clans pledged to Rand.

Siuan, Leane & Mother Guenna each have significant role to play in this outcome, as well. Siuan, Leane have a great deal of influence among the Novices & Accepted. Mother Guenna knows Mat cares for Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene. Guenna has family ties to Siuan.


Yes, Morgase, Gareth Bryne, Birgitte, Lini, Siuan, and Leane are major power brokers. Morgase, Gareth Bryne and Birgitte's decisions carry a great deal of weight. A nexus of power.




So that leaves Weiramon, I think.
Did I miss anyone else?


Nations Nobles: Andorans--Dyelin, Luan Norwelyn, Catalyn Haevin, Elenia Sarand, Danine Candraed (yes);
Nation Rulers: Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar, Alliandre, Amathera et al.
Great Captains
Logain's Asha'man,
Aes Sedai Novices & Accepted (bc of mutiny),
Aes Sedai (bc of mutiny),
Five Aiel Clan Chiefs in Cairhien,
Tuatha'an (Ila, Raen),
Liandrin & Rendra,
Loial's Ogier Folk,
shatayan head housekeepers /shambayan head butlers or First Maids,
Innkeepers in the Tar Valon region,
Mother Guenna,
Morgase, asking Elayne?




Weiramon of Theoryland makes a good hint or point, about Kitchen Folk mostly likely being involved in this scene. They'll be part of it. Whether Laras the Mistress of Kitchens or Gera, a 'good cook' who once dreamed of telling off the Aes Sedai and be becoming slimmer. :D



Aelfinn & Eelfinn match-makers get their wish: Mat's Marriage


Brandon's twitter comment about trusting Mat is a precursor to Mat's marriage.


Where will Mat's plural marriage ceremony taken place?
Underground.

What are two clues supporting this?
Elaida's foretelling. Dragon Prophecy. Key words are 'under this sign'. 'Under' as in below ground. Above ground is the symbol, a flag.



How to enforce a Bargain?


Lots of People need to be able to watch this marriage to occur, so to bind the nations together as one. To enforce the treaty & marriage, between Mat, Tuon, Elayne, Aviendha & Min, and the nations. Some number of representatives from every effected group need to be on site to witness this grand ceremony.

Khoram
09-29-2011, 11:53 PM
I'm slightly staggered too...though probably because I've been drinking.

Teach me to be like you!

Not the drinking part, though. I already have that down. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2011, 05:27 AM
Missed this one. Care to explain that? (I don't know why I bother to ask, since I know you're just trolling me...I guess I just want to make you work for your trolling rather than allow you to drop random, lazy drive-by comments.)I would say that it is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader*. I intended to make a sort of generic comment pointing out that there was not enough information in this to really support any strong conclusions, but still enough to warrant some speculation. I tried to do that by using an example where it should have been obvious that applying it in that way was totally unfounded, while the actual quote BS gave might still play a pivotal role in that actual scene (if it# happens, of course).

* Which happens to be The Unreasoner, for some inscrutable reason.

# Where "it" can apply both to your theories, and to the inclusion of this quote in the finished book. It may get edited out again, after all.

Terez
09-30-2011, 05:31 AM
I would say that it is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader*. I intended to make a sort of generic comment pointing out that there was not enough information in this to really support any strong conclusions, but still enough to warrant some speculation. I tried to do that by using an example where it should have been obvious that applying it in that way was totally unfounded, while the actual quote BS gave might still play a pivotal role in that actual scene (if it# happens, of course).
Well now, that's an elaborate justification for trolling me.

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2011, 05:45 AM
You were commenting repeatedly on how this thread was not really worth posting in because there wasn't enough information to actually use. Making that point once would've been unnecessary, but not excessive. Making it a number of times did seem to make you a "volunteer" for the point I was trying to make.

Terez
09-30-2011, 05:49 AM
You were commenting repeatedly on how this thread was not really worth posting in because there wasn't enough information to actually use.
Actually, I never said anything resembling that. I only commented on the general non-shocking nature of the quote once; after that, I was responding to ZS's unnecessarily whiny and defensive responses. I don't enjoy repeating myself, and so I avoid it when possible.

Making that point once would've been unnecessary, but not excessive. Making it a number of times did seem to make you a "volunteer" for the point I was trying to make.
Nice try, but you're still a troll.

Crispin's Crispian
09-30-2011, 11:21 AM
It's a fun question, which is why I think everyone is having fun with it (well, at least most of TL). And with just a small measure more of context there might be something we could come up with that really works as far as a theory goes. I'd rather see us come up with a second question Brandon would answer, something that would give us more context without answering the larger question. Such as, does the person that says this come from the Two Rivers or has visited the Two Rivers? Or something like that. It would still leave it open to a bunch of people, while narrowing the field a bit. (Actually, just tweeted that question...we'll see if he is willing to answer.)

I have a hard time believing Brandon would bald faced give us what amounts to a blatant: Mat will seal the deal with the Seanchan answer. But I could be wrong.
I still can't get used to things disappearing and reappearing in someone's quotes. It's just so weird and confusing.

I agree with Tamyrlin that the quote was interesting and fun, but wasn't specific enough for us to really work with.

I also think it is fun to speculate on it, but speculate is all we can do. Did the thread take a turn to the comic side at one point? Sure, but that doesn't bother me. Of course, I didn't start the thread.

Theoryland being Theoryland, of course it has to turn into a discussion about appropriate levels of discussion. And yes, it's getting frustrating, so I understand where ZS is coming from.

Why am I writing this? I'm not really sure. I guess I see both sides of it, and I do want to encourage ZS and anyone else to post things like this, regardless of whether they're "obvious" or pretty vague. Put enough "pretty vague" hints together and we have a clue.

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 12:55 PM
This already has the makings of a classic TL thread:

1. A vague hint only partially addressed
2. 29000 posts pointing out vagueness
3. 5 serious replies
4. Normally tedious Bela jokes, somehow made original and funny again here
5. Tamyrlin vs. Zombie Sammael RE: Terez
6. Terez vs. Gonzo the Great RE: Trolling
7. Me laughing and/or crying and making lists
8. Someone questioning the prejudices of the OP
9. The OP questioning the prejudices of everyone else
10. At least four (4) cases of extreme irony in posting
11. Alcohol

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 01:05 PM
12. Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear that this Cauthon lout was chasing skirts among the scullery maids in the Kitchens of the White Tower, and they would not even entrust him with a flagon, or a pestle, or even a horn.

13. Guenna has family ties to Siuan

An otherwise remarkably appropriate post from our friend Felix.

Zombie Sammael
09-30-2011, 01:36 PM
This already has the makings of a classic TL thread:

1. A vague hint only partially addressed
2. 29000 posts pointing out vagueness
3. 5 serious replies
4. Normally tedious Bela jokes, somehow made original and funny again here
5. Tamyrlin vs. Zombie Sammael RE: Terez
6. Terez vs. Gonzo the Great RE: Trolling
7. Me laughing and/or crying and making lists
8. Someone questioning the prejudices of the OP
9. The OP questioning the prejudices of everyone else
10. At least four (4) cases of extreme irony in posting
11. Alcohol

In a very real sense, this thread is now the essence of Theoryland. I motion it be protected at all costs, lest the Shadow's forces should seek to strike against it.

FelixPax
09-30-2011, 06:44 PM
12.

An otherwise remarkably appropriate post from our friend Felix.

Is this a request for quotations and a follow-up discussion?

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 08:04 PM
7. Me laughing and/or crying and making lists
I didn't realize that...I...considered my list-making (is that really 'my' thing?) integral to a classic thread.
And what did I include the 'crying' bit for, if not to prevent this? Or is it just me second-guessing my sanity that is integral?
Is this a request for quotations and a follow-up discussion?
Lol. Not quite. I meant to note that you (almost alone) took the thread seriously even though you said you didn't find the reveal particularly significant. Very...classy of you.

BTW,
My signature? Y/N?

Spasmodean
10-01-2011, 08:27 PM
So we've discussed who is asking the question and who is hearing the question.

My question is: what are they trusting him WITH?

The Horn of Valere?
Dragon Cannons?
Chief General of the Light?
Negotiate with Seanchan?
Finding a badger, any place, any time?

The Seanchan thing seems most likely to me, as they need to be brought to heel in some fashion.

Lupusdeusest
10-01-2011, 11:09 PM
Well is it known that Master Cauthon may be a scoundrel, but it is also known that he Never Breaks His Promises or his Word.

And I was wondering when the "t" word would come up. It seems to be rather popular of late and yet used differently to other forums.


Posting this a bit late.

Caveatar
10-02-2011, 12:24 AM
This should be some fuel to get the wild speculation going. My guess is it has to do with peacemaking with the Seanchan. If Mat's as key to that as we think, the question of how trustworthy he is will be one that is asked by Aes Sedai, Rand, Egwene, Kings and Queens the world over, and perhaps even Aiel.

An exciting tidbit, indeed.

I agree that it has to do with peacemaking.
I think that it involves all the gathered leaders at the Fields of Merrilor.

General Consensus of Leaders: "Because of your past actions we don't know how much we can trust you even if you are the Dragon Reborn."
Rand/LTT: "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?"

Else
Fortuona the Empress(May she get a terminal wedgie from her throne), "I do not trust you. You have not bowed to the Crystal Throne."
Rand: "How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?"

kivo
10-02-2011, 12:37 PM
My favorite ideas from this thread:

Rand or someone else to Fortouna - truce-making without the kneeling.

Gawyn or someone else to Egwene - because Mat gives Rand's plan his military genius seal of approval. And/or allowing him to take the Horn.

Birgitte to Elayne - on letting Mat take care of Caemlyn while Rand needs her for some key role in the strike on Shayol Ghul.


It's easier to speculate on the one needing to trust than the one asking the question because the asker could be anyone. Those being asked above are the folks heading into AMOL we can reasonably expect to be put in a position to need to trust Mat with something that goes against their own instincts.

Zombie Sammael
10-02-2011, 12:45 PM
My favorite ideas from this thread:

Rand or someone else to Fortouna - truce-making without the kneeling.

Gawyn or someone else to Egwene - because Mat gives Rand's plan his military genius seal of approval. And/or allowing him to take the Horn.

Birgitte to Elayne - on letting Mat take care of Caemlyn while Rand needs her for some key role in the strike on Shayol Ghul.


It's easier to speculate on the one needing to trust than the one asking the question because the asker could be anyone. Those being asked above are the folks heading into AMOL we can reasonably expect to be put in a position to need to trust Mat with something that goes against their own instincts.

Of those, I think only the first one satisfies the criteria of being "an important moment", really.

kivo
10-03-2011, 08:02 PM
Of those, I think only the first one satisfies the criteria of being "an important moment", really.

Depends on the context. Any of those things could be important depending on how AMOL unfolds.

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 08:09 PM
Depends on the context. Any of those things could be important depending on how AMOL unfolds.

Well, yes. Almost anything could be important depending on how AMOL unfolds.

JOS
10-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Laras, has anyone mentioned Laras?

If the clue is regarding The Horn I conjecture the quote is delivered as such:

From Siuan to Egwene, when faced with Mat asking for the Horn (Egwene being clueless about where it is, but bouncing concerns off of Siuan)

From Laras to Siuan, when asked to reveal the Horn and give it to Mat. Laras will reply with something about paddling him with a spoon.

Still, it seems that Brandon was hinting toward a larger scale "moment" of global significance, like a crazy battle plan that Mat is asking the forces of Light to follow, but any on the great captains could say it.

Consider this scenario, Mat and Tuon reunite, she gives command of all the forces of the Seanchan in Randland to Mat and goes back to Seachan to clean things up (because he understands the Randlanders better or something, and she has to secure her power base across the Ocean or some such). Mat shows up at the White Tower and tells Egwene that he straightened out the whole Seanchan mess and that they need not worry about the Seanchan attacking again. Which leads me to the quote being delivered:

From Random Sitter or Keeper of the Chronicals to Egwene, followed by an awkward pause. A long one. And Egwene will say something about badgers and mischief.

Weiramon
10-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Laras, has anyone mentioned Laras?

If the clue is regarding The Horn I conjecture the quote is delivered as such:

From Siuan to Egwene, when faced with Mat asking for the Horn (Egwene being clueless about where it is, but bouncing concerns off of Siuan)

Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear that Sanche woman thinks the Cauthon lout is like some relative of hers who went into a burning building to save another.

Destrina
10-13-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm going to say it's Laras, talking to Egwene. I'm pretty sure Laras has the Horn of Valere in that secret place in the kitchen.

Mat getting the horn for TG is a pretty pivotal thing.

Toss the dice
10-15-2011, 02:01 PM
I'm fairly confident Egwene and Aes Sedai are involved in this question, as they (especially Egwene) are pretty much the only ones who at this point would ever question Mat's trustworthiness. On a somewhat related note, Mat is probably the overwhelmingly #1 character when it comes to having the respect and notoriety among virtually every single people in the known world. The only ones that wouldn't be on the list would be Sharans, simply because he hasn't been there. Shara and Egwene, along with probably quite a few ignorant, in-the-dark Tower Aes Sedai.

Since my vote is Egwene/AS, I will go with the subject being the Horn, as others have said.

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2011, 06:19 AM
It could be that the one asking the question is king Darlin. Last time he and Mat met, Mat thumped the ragamuffin fairly badly. That may not have left a very favorable first impression.

Then again, Mat did the same with Galad and Gawyn. And with the gholam, come to think of it.

Toss the dice
10-18-2011, 12:28 PM
It could be that the one asking the question is king Darlin. Last time he and Mat met, Mat thumped the ragamuffin fairly badly. That may not have left a very favorable first impression.

Then again, Mat did the same with Galad and Gawyn. And with the gholam, come to think of it.

Lol that's very true. The 2nd encounter of Darlin and Mat I've been looking forward to for a long time now. Considering how we've talked here before about how many characters seemingly don't talk to each other at all off-screen, I wouldn't be surprised if Darlin doesn't even know who Mat really is. Only that he is the commoner who laid his ass out the night the Aiel took the Stone.

That could be quite funny if they bump into each other here soon. Mat may vaguely recognize Darlin, as having seen him before, but Darlin will surely recognize Mat.