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kasper11
09-30-2011, 04:55 PM
In LoC, Lews Therin constantly thinks about killing Demandred and Sammael. Why just those two?

We know that LT is a part of Rand, and knows what Rand knows. Rand doesn't know that the DO has been resurrecting Foresaken, so he thinks that the rest of the male Foresaken are dead. EXCEPT for Asmodean, who he thinks is still alive.

So, why doesn't LT mutter about killing Asmodean? Is it a screwup by RJ? Or, is there something LT (and now Rand) knows about Asmodean from the AoL?

Terez
09-30-2011, 05:09 PM
In LoC, Lews Therin constantly thinks about killing Demandred and Sammael. Why just those two?

We know that LT is a part of Rand, and knows what Rand knows. Rand doesn't know that the DO has been resurrecting Foresaken, so he thinks that the rest of the male Foresaken are dead. EXCEPT for Asmodean, who he thinks is still alive.

So, why doesn't LT mutter about killing Asmodean? Is it a screwup by RJ?
lol. It always amazes me that people even consider 'screwup' when it comes to things like this.

Lews Therin holds a grudge against those two because they were his top generals before they went to the Dark Side. They betrayed him directly. Asmodean didn't.

Rand al'Fain
09-30-2011, 08:33 PM
lol. It always amazes me that people even consider 'screwup' when it comes to things like this.

Lews Therin holds a grudge against those two because they were his top generals before they went to the Dark Side. They betrayed him directly. Asmodean didn't.
I agree. (Who'd a thought that, huh?) But to a certain extent. "LTT" also raged against Taim and the other Asha'man as well. So, take it for what it's worth.

Terez
09-30-2011, 08:47 PM
I think he mainly raged against Taim because of the reminder of Sammael and Demandred. He gave them high positions in his command, and they betrayed him...and Rand sensed that Taim would do the same. (A truth he tried to ignore until now, hence the subconscious raving about it.)

kabkaba
10-03-2011, 09:33 AM
I thought Asmo was already dead in LoC. He dies at the end of FoH, doesn't he?

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2011, 09:37 AM
I thought Asmo was already dead in LoC. He dies at the end of FoH, doesn't he?But according to some, LTT didn't know about that.

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 09:41 AM
But according to some, LTT didn't know about that.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to think that, if Rand didn't know about Asmo's death, then LTT somehow would, does it?

We fly too close to the sun; the sun called "Construct/Real".

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2011, 10:15 AM
LTT used to be one of the suspects for the killing.

Daekyras
10-03-2011, 10:16 AM
It doesn't make a lot of sense to think that, if Rand didn't know about Asmo's death, then LTT somehow would, does it?

We fly too close to the sun; the sun called "Construct/Real".

Yes, Yes we do but by god I'm going to fly higher!

LTT wasn't real. Rand didn't want asmodean dead, so LTT didn't.

Ahhhhhhhh! My wax is melting...

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 10:37 AM
LTT used to be one of the suspects for the killing.

Well, that's just looney. LTT never fully managed to take control of even the OP (which is to some extent a psychological phenomenon) let alone actually controlling Rand's body, and at such an early stage in the MPD? Yeah, right. Anyway, Graendal did it, so it's a moot point. LTT couldn't have known about that.

Yes, Yes we do but by god I'm going to fly higher!

LTT wasn't real. Rand didn't want asmodean dead, so LTT didn't.

Ahhhhhhhh! My wax is melting...

I agree with you. It does indicate that wanting Asmodean dead probably wasn't a repressed feeling of Rand's, or from the AOL, either.

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Well, that's just looney. LTT never fully managed to take control of even the OP (which is to some extent a psychological phenomenon) let alone actually controlling Rand's body, and at such an early stage in the MPD? Yeah, right. Anyway, Graendal did it, so it's a moot point. LTT couldn't have known about that.There have been indications that they knew each other, way back when. Maybe they kept in touch?

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 11:33 AM
There have been indications that they knew each other, way back when. Maybe they kept in touch?

Again, that would require LTT to be able to take physical control of Rand's body, which he has never been known to do.

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Again, that would require LTT to be able to take physical control of Rand's body, which he has never been known to do.There was the Trolloc attack, where LTT made the deathgates. There was the fading episode during the fight with Rahvin, where LTT almost remade his own body.

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 12:22 PM
There was the Trolloc attack, where LTT made the deathgates. There was the fading episode during the fight with Rahvin, where LTT almost remade his own body.

Both are mental, not physical. Channelling is a mental exercise which produces a physical effect. Being in TAR requires a degree of mental control. Neither of these are examples of the LTT construct taking physical control of Rand al'Thor's physical body. Speaking to Graendal would require it to do this.

Sarevok
10-03-2011, 01:44 PM
I believe there was an episode along the lines of "He woke up next to his bed, sobbing about Ilyena" or something similar.
One of the quotemasters will have to confirm or deny that, though...

padfoot89
10-03-2011, 02:57 PM
Wait, that episode in TAR during the fight with Rahvin was LTT trying to take over ? I thought it was Rahvin screwing with Rand.

Terez
10-03-2011, 03:14 PM
But according to some, LTT didn't know about that.
Even Rand didn't know about it. He thought Asmodean had escaped.

Zombie Sammael
10-03-2011, 03:48 PM
I believe there was an episode along the lines of "He woke up next to his bed, sobbing about Ilyena" or something similar.
One of the quotemasters will have to confirm or deny that, though...

I recall the incident, though I don't have the specific quote to hand. That doesn't necessarily mean LTT had control over his body, though; it just means thoughts of Ilyena were leaking through in his sleep (and he fell out of bed, ouch). Which given the possible evidence of an attempted takeover in TAR might make a lot of sense; Rand can deny who he is when awake, but when asleep (or in the world of dreams) reality as it is starts trying to assert itself.

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2011, 04:05 AM
Wait, that episode in TAR during the fight with Rahvin was LTT trying to take over ? I thought it was Rahvin screwing with Rand.It was, at first. Rahvin made Rand disappear. Then LTT countered that, and started to appear himself. Rand figured out how to do it too, fought both Rahvin and LTT, and won.

Terez
10-04-2011, 01:34 PM
It was, at first. Rahvin made Rand disappear. Then LTT countered that, and started to appear himself. Rand figured out how to do it too, fought both Rahvin and LTT, and won.
Translation: Rand instinctively fought the trap, tapping Lews Therin's memories. When he realized what he was doing, he fought that too, and realized he had two rather clear pictures in his head of what he should look like. It's no surprise he tended toward Lews Therin's features seeing as how he knew he needed those memories to fight Rahvin. If he hadn't fought those memories, he might not have needed Nynaeve to save him.

Enigma
10-06-2011, 10:46 AM
I might be remembering this wrong but I thought that at first Rahvin tried to turn Rand into the image of LTT or what we assume was what LTT looked like. LTT actually shouted no in Rand's mind as presumably being more skilled/experienced he picked up on the forced changes being done to the body faster that Rand.

Rand fought back and stabillised himself before Ravhin then tried to change him into a beast that could not channel and it was Nynaeve's attack on Rahvin that saved him from this.

Were was there any suggestion that LTT tried to turn Rand's body into what LTT had looked like? If it was not Rahvin, then what exactly was Rahvin doing for that time? It would be very nice of him to sit and wait until his mortal enemy had gotten over his crises of identity before trying to kill him.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2011, 12:33 PM
You are remembering it wrong. TFoH, Chapter 55, The Threads Burn, is where you can find the relevant passage.

Summary:
Rand started turning misty.
LTT shouted "No!", and began imposing his own body on TAR, so as not to be erased.
Rand then fought both, and won, restoring himself to full reality.
Then Rand first wondered why LTT had tried to take over, before figuring out that it had been an attack by Rahvin.

Enigma
10-06-2011, 05:26 PM
I stand corrected. Thanks for the summary Gonzo.