PDA

View Full Version : The Princess In The Tower


Pages : [1] 2 3

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 10:40 AM
Yes, it took me THIS LONG to finish the bloody book. Hush. I've been busy.

I knew that Moiraine would come back. I knew it from the moment she fell through that red stone ter'angreal because Jordan was using her and Thom as the Gandalf/Merlin archetype. But why the hell did Jordan (and yes, it was Jordan, not Sanderson, I can tell the difference in their styles now, they don't merge quite that seamlessly) have to bring her back as he did?

Not only did they have to rescue the smartest, most cunning woman in the series from semi-demonic life-forms, she was naked. And unconscious. And weak. In the entire series, she was possibly the most admirable Aes Sedai. And she was reduced to a prize to be won.

Let's examine how badly her character was crippled. For one, why the hell did she have to be naked? Moiraine's never shown to be self-conscious of her body, so the Eelfinn couldn't have been feeding off her shame at being naked. Plot-wise, there was no reason for it. It was only to show that visually, to us the readers, that she'd been reduced to her most vulnerable parts. Clothing, symbolically, is armor. It's protection. It hides our flaws and weaknesses. So, she's now imprisoned with her flaws and weaknesses laid bare for Thom to find. And when he braves her prison, he immediately re-armors her. Thus symbolically providing a means to defend herself again.

Now, on one layer, since Thom and Moiraine are two halves of the same Gandalf/Merlin character, he's actually armoring himself, protecting himself.

But since they're two separate characters, Moiraine's his prize and she can only be protected if he does the protecting. ie, Puts his cloak over her.

She's unconscious throughout her entire rescue, not once being able to participate in it. I could deal with the princess in the tower trope, if like Princess Leia Organa, she then takes charge of her own rescue and leads them out. (Yes, I know, it's Matt's show. SHE STILL COULD HAVE BEEN AWAKE!) Being unconscious through the entire rescue mission was rather cheap and reduced her to just another obstacle/dead weight Matt and Thom had to deal with in their escape. This is the fate that awaited Moiraine? The one Aes Sedai to have found and guided the Dragon Reborn from his sleepy little village to the one-man wrecking ball/savior he is now? To be carried ignominiously like a sack of potatoes, sleeping through her own mission? How dignified.

And then, when she finally wakes up after they're all safe and sound, she tells Thom and Mat she's weaker in the power than an Accepted in the Tower. The only thing giving her any ability whatsoever is an angreal. So, she's artificially boosted in strength. AND THEN OFFERS TO GET RID OF IT TO APPEASE THOM'S SKITTISHNESS ABOUT AES SEDAI. Hell, she even offers to leave the order. So, not only is she weakened, and passive, she's offering to pitch the thing that has given her her identity and strength and a reason to live for decades all for a man? Don't forget, she's a Blue. Which means when she backs a cause she backs a cause, but yet, here she is, instead of being determined to see her one raison d'etre through, that of ushering the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle, or at least, even checking up on him, she's willing to throw everything, EVERYTHING, away for Thom.

This is not the basis for a healthy relationship, Mo. I hate to tell you this, but seriously? Giving up everything you ever held dear to hold on to a man is stupid.

I don't object to her loving Thom. I saw that coming 10 books ago. I don't object to her rescue in and of itself. I object to the fact that the Aes Sedai who single-handedly held off a Fist of Trollocs on Wintersnight to save the Dragon Reborn is now a bloody besotted, twitterpated, school girl.

Rand al'Fain
10-17-2011, 10:50 AM
Well, in Moiraine's defense, she had been imprisoned and tortured (Saidar sucked away) for months without pause. Give her a chance to relax for a day or two before she goes to Merrilor and helps sets things right. She is only human.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 10:54 AM
Missing The Point.

She could have been written a zillion other ways but... no... the most empowered woman in the series is now the weakest.

(I could say similar things about Siuane Sanche, but this thread is about Moiraine.)

Tree Brother
10-17-2011, 10:54 AM
And then, when she finally wakes up after they're all safe and sound, she tells Thom and Mat she's weaker in the power than an Accepted in the Tower. The only thing giving her any ability whatsoever is an angreal. So, she's artificially boosted in strength. AND THEN OFFERS TO GET RID OF IT TO APPEASE THOM'S SKITTISHNESS ABOUT AES SEDAI. Hell, she even offers to leave the order. So, not only is she weakened, and passive, she's offering to pitch the thing that has given her her identity and strength and a reason to live for decades all for a man? Don't forget, she's a Blue. Which means when she backs a cause she backs a cause, but yet, here she is, instead of being determined to see her one raison d'etre through, that of ushering the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle, or at least, even checking up on him, she's willing to throw everything, EVERYTHING, away for Thom.


She has seen the future (or various possibilities). And she has had three questions/three requests.

It is possible that either (1) winning the last battle does not require her to be either Aes Sadai, or to channel, or (2) winning the last battle requires Thom and her to be together (for whatever reason), just as was required for Suan. It is ironic, that the two characters who were lock-step in the Power as novices, would also both be reduced in Power as well (though still capable of working toward the last battle regardless).

Maybe Thom's music will play a role :)

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 10:58 AM
You may underestimate her. She saw the future, after all. So she may have deliberately picked the most effective manner of dealing with Thom's dioxeteusefobia* in a hurry, rather than dragging it on for days. She put him on the spot, and now she's done with it. And he can feel all virtuous about it. Pretty foxy, to outfox an old fox like that.
As an added bonus, it may also help Mat in dealing with his hangup, and so be more effective.

As for why she slept through the whole rescue: I suspect that the *finn wouldn't have wanted her to be capable of making things even harder for them. If nothing else, she could have Healed the ones who carried her, thus giving them new hope, which would have let them fail in the end, whereupon the DO would have won. Far better not to let her interfere with fate.

* Fear of channeling, if my google-translate attempt worked well enough.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 11:00 AM
I understand the possibilities, Gonzo, my issue is the immediate impact of her crappy-assed 'rescue' in rendering her that weak.

ETA: And if, in fact that IS her reason in assuaging Thom's fears... that's even more manipulative and evil and does her even less credit than voluntarily weakening herself just to be with Thom.

Davian93
10-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Well, Perrin got to see her naked...stands to reason that Mat would too. Didn't Rand catch a glimpse at some point too? If he hasn't, I have to assume that the first thing she'll do at the Field of Merrilor is flash him.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 11:28 AM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlgq8jdC-LFGbzpjWOKE2jQWhDuisUr3_E1N49XJcJV1AqiuSptE8BA6d79 w

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 11:28 AM
Well, Perrin got to see her naked...stands to reason that Mat would too. Didn't Rand catch a glimpse at some point too? If he hasn't, I have to assume that the first thing she'll do at the Field of Merrilor is flash him.Rand did, but Mat saw her then too. That was when she returned from Rhuidean, where chicks aren't allowed clothing.

Of course, what with Mat being the Dragon Reborn and all, it stands to reason that he gets to see her naked twice.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 11:30 AM
Thanks ever so much, the both of you.

Davian93
10-17-2011, 11:32 AM
Thanks ever so much, the both of you.

FWIW, I actually agree with you on how it damaged her character significantly.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 11:33 AM
FWIW, I actually agree with you on how it damaged her character significantly.

Then you know, you could actually talk about that instead of cracking jokes....

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 11:43 AM
Actually, I am not sure that it would have been better if she'd been playing Snakes and Foxes during all those books, and then took charge when Mat and company finally showed up to get her out.

You seem to forget that she had actually foreseen this outcome long before she went to confront Lanfear. Doing that took a lot of courage.

And of course there's the added fact that while she dares show weakness to Thom and Mat, it is by no means certain she'll continue doing that when she returns to civilisaton again. Neither Mat nor Thom would speak about what happened, or at least, no more than she would want them to.

Davian93
10-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Then you know, you could actually talk about that instead of cracking jokes....

In my defense I did talk about it...at length. It was when the book first came out though. ;)


Seriously though, it was an unneccessary and silly plot twist that significantly weakened the character. A way to avoid that would have been to have her be conscious and have her have the crucial information on how to get out...something along the lines of "Mat, remember the bargain you made...you asked for a way out...your Spear, its the way out!"

Boom, character saved. Instead, she's a helpless weak woman who can't survive without a man.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 11:58 AM
In my defense I did talk about it...at length. It was when the book first came out though. ;)


Seriously though, it was an unneccessary and silly plot twist that significantly weakened the character. A way to avoid that would have been to have her be conscious and have her have the crucial information on how to get out...something along the lines of "Mat, remember the bargain you made...you asked for a way out...your Spear, its the way out!"

Boom, character saved. Instead, she's a helpless weak woman who can't survive without a man.

In my defense, I've been busy writing my own stuff. I haven't really had a lot of chances to read, period. This is the longest I've ever taken to read a book. LOL So, thanks for humoring me.

Gonzo: doesn't matter what WILL happen. Sanderson may "fix" her character and redeem her. Or he may not. What matters is that right now? She's been diminished to "get her man."

Kimon
10-17-2011, 12:07 PM
Let's examine how badly her character was crippled. For one, why the hell did she have to be naked? Moiraine's never shown to be self-conscious of her body, so the Eelfinn couldn't have been feeding off her shame at being naked. Plot-wise, there was no reason for it.

Her raising test in New Spring did seem to focus quite a bit on challenges to her sense of modesty and constantly disappearing clothes.

ShadowbaneX
10-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Then you know, you could actually talk about that instead of cracking jokes....

Umm, Gil, dear? This IS Theoryland. That's sorta what we do here.

I do agree though, it is a bit crippling of the character, and I can think of three reasons why:
-RJ lost it
-like many other authors, he's inserting his own fetishes in to his stories (do we need to bring up Faile's abduction?)
-she went in to this, sacrificed her ability for knowledge that will help Rand in the last battle (Min's vision)

Also, there aren't many woman that are strong but cannot channel. Only Morgase really comes to mind and she threw it all away for a guy as well, so take that for what you will.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 12:23 PM
Gonzo: doesn't matter what WILL happen. Sanderson may "fix" her character and redeem her. Or he may not. What matters is that right now? She's been diminished to "get her man."Actually, I disagree with that.

She was diminished to win the fight against Lanfear. That is what shook her to pieces. That is what cost her so much.
Then, right after having been tortured for months on end, she took a gamble and made Thom an offer he couldn't accept. If he had botched that, then they would both have ended up unhappy I expect. But now it's out of the way, and no longer an impediment to their happiness ever* after.

* About 30 hours, give or take a bit, until the Lord of the Dark vanquishes the Dragon.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 12:27 PM
Also, there aren't many woman that are strong but cannot channel. Only Morgase really comes to mind and she threw it all away for a guy as well, so take that for what you will.There's Berelain, Sorilea, Laras and Valan Luca*. Just to name a few. Not to mention all those Sea Folk wavemistresses.

* Who may or may not count as a woman, but he deserves a mention anyway.

Tamyrlin
10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Not only did they have to rescue the smartest, most cunning woman in the series from semi-demonic life-forms, she was naked. And unconscious. And weak. In the entire series, she was possibly the most admirable Aes Sedai. And she was reduced to a prize to be won.


If she hadn't been naked, unconscious and weak, in other words, if Jordan hadn't stripped her in every way possible for the reader, would we have believed the sacrifice made to get to her was necessary and not simply plot convenient so Mat could give up his eye? Would we have believed the Finns would have given her up if they hadn't pretty much taken everything they could have from an emotional level from her? In fact, maybe she wasn't naked at first. It might have been another layer of their emotional rape that they initiated.


Let's examine how badly her character was crippled. For one, why the hell did she have to be naked? Moiraine's never shown to be self-conscious of her body, so the Eelfinn couldn't have been feeding off her shame at being naked. Plot-wise, there was no reason for it. It was only to show that visually, to us the readers, that she'd been reduced to her most vulnerable parts. Clothing, symbolically, is armor. It's protection. It hides our flaws and weaknesses. So, she's now imprisoned with her flaws and weaknesses laid bare for Thom to find. And when he braves her prison, he immediately re-armors her. Thus symbolically providing a means to defend herself again.


I disagree that the nakedness couldn't fit into the plot considering what we know of the Finns. Just because Moiraine wasn't self-conscious before she went it from an outward display, does not mean she had no emotion about her nakedness and that it couldn't be exploited in many ways by the Finns and fed off by them as part of the complete torture they put her through. Also, considering they strip off the flesh of those that they capture...not hard to believe they'd strip the clothing off prior to the flesh stripping. Plot-wise, it worked.


She's unconscious throughout her entire rescue, not once being able to participate in it. I could deal with the princess in the tower trope, if like Princess Leia Organa, she then takes charge of her own rescue and leads them out. (Yes, I know, it's Matt's show. SHE STILL COULD HAVE BEEN AWAKE!) Being unconscious through the entire rescue mission was rather cheap and reduced her to just another obstacle/dead weight Matt and Thom had to deal with in their escape. This is the fate that awaited Moiraine? The one Aes Sedai to have found and guided the Dragon Reborn from his sleepy little village to the one-man wrecking ball/savior he is now? To be carried ignominiously like a sack of potatoes, sleeping through her own mission? How dignified.


Why does Moiraine deserve special treatment from the author's perspective? He played the non-damsel to damsel to (what I hope is non damsel) trope. Heh. Whatever role she has left to play, this experience will have been important to it. If she simply sits it out and fawns over Thom for the last book, then I will bemoan the stupidity of this whole thing with you but I'm reserving it until we have a much more complete understanding.

To the plot, if anyone could have gotten up after being tortured by the Finns for that long and not only walked themselves out but carried off the escape from a leadership perspective, it might have been like "hurrah, Moiraine is awesome!" but it would also have felt really really lame and cheap and made the Finns look way too stupid and all of the sacrifices made unnecessary.


And then, when she finally wakes up after they're all safe and sound, she tells Thom and Mat she's weaker in the power than an Accepted in the Tower. The only thing giving her any ability whatsoever is an angreal. So, she's artificially boosted in strength. AND THEN OFFERS TO GET RID OF IT TO APPEASE THOM'S SKITTISHNESS ABOUT AES SEDAI. Hell, she even offers to leave the order. So, not only is she weakened, and passive, she's offering to pitch the thing that has given her her identity and strength and a reason to live for decades all for a man? Don't forget, she's a Blue. Which means when she backs a cause she backs a cause, but yet, here she is, instead of being determined to see her one raison d'etre through, that of ushering the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle, or at least, even checking up on him, she's willing to throw everything, EVERYTHING, away for Thom.

This is not the basis for a healthy relationship, Mo. I hate to tell you this, but seriously? Giving up everything you ever held dear to hold on to a man is stupid.


We have to take into account what she saw in the Rings in Rhuidean. We know she saw things that happened after she left and likely variations on them. To assume that she isn't aware of those and that she isn't continuing to test those things she saw, would be unwise from our perspective as readers. In other words, your explanation of the meaning of Moiraine's apparent willingness to give up who we came to believe she was, is not the only believable explanation. I could make a plausible case that Moiraine was testing some of those "paths" she saw in her future not knowing what she was coming out to now that she had been rescued. Thom's answer likely told her something about the state of the world.

ShadowbaneX
10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Berelain's lost it over Galad, Sorilea can channel, Laras, whatever her skills, is ultimately still a servant. It would be interesting to see Sorilea vs Moiraine though. Or Moiraine vs Cadsuane.

Kimon
10-17-2011, 12:51 PM
Berelain's lost it over Galad, Sorilea can channel, Laras, whatever her skills, is ultimately still a servant. It would be interesting to see Sorilea vs Moiraine though. Or Moiraine vs Cadsuane.

How about Min, Faile, and Sulin. Min helped keep Rand sane, and has been a more effective adviser for him than any but Nynaeve and Moiraine. Faile, while annoying still has never been the simpering variety of annoying. And Sulin has stood up to Rand effectively on a number of occasions, most notably at the docks in Cairhien.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 12:56 PM
If she hadn't been naked, unconscious and weak, in other words, if Jordan hadn't stripped her in every way possible for the reader, would we have believed the sacrifice made to get to her was necessary and not simply plot convenient so Mat could give up his eye? Would we have believed the Finns would have given her up if they hadn't pretty much taken everything they could have from an emotional level from her? In fact, maybe she wasn't naked at first. It might have been another layer of their emotional rape that they initiated.

Mat could have given up his eye in any number of ways, Tam, don't give me that. It just so happened that it was deliberately set up so that Moiraine was at her weakest when she was rescued. I don't have an issue with the nudity in and of itself. I have an issue with how it was treated.


I disagree that the nakedness couldn't fit into the plot considering what we know of the Finns. Just because Moiraine wasn't self-conscious before she went it from an outward display, does not mean she had no emotion about her nakedness and that it couldn't be exploited in many ways by the Finns and fed off by them as part of the complete torture they put her through. Also, considering they strip off the flesh of those that they capture...not hard to believe they'd strip the clothing off prior to the flesh stripping. Plot-wise, it worked.

Plot-wise, it was also an outward manifestation of her inward weakness. It was also one that was not exhibited as being overcome, but rather taken care of for her. By Thom.


Why does Moiraine deserve special treatment from the author's perspective? He played the non-damsel to damsel to (what I hope is non damsel) trope. Heh. Whatever role she has left to play, this experience will have been important to it. If she simply sits it out and fawns over Thom for the last book, then I will bemoan the stupidity of this whole thing with you but I'm reserving it until we have a much more complete understanding.

You're right. If Sanderson "fixes" this, I'll be a happy camper and this trial will go down as a heroic right-of-passage, so to speak. But as it stands now, it's a rather ridiculous weakening of an otherwise strong female character.


To the plot, if anyone could have gotten up after being tortured by the Finns for that long and not only walked themselves out but carried off the escape from a leadership perspective, it might have been like "hurrah, Moiraine is awesome!" but it would also have felt really really lame and cheap and made the Finns look way too stupid and all of the sacrifices made unnecessary.

I disagree. She still could have been a prisoner, just unable to leave. She didn't have to be stripped of everything she was, Tam. There was no "sacrifice" here. She got lucky they learned their lesson with Lanfear, essentially.


We have to take into account what she saw in the Rings in Rhuidean. We know she saw things that happened after she left and likely variations on them. To assume that she isn't aware of those and that she isn't continuing to test those things she saw, would be unwise from our perspective as readers. In other words, your explanation of the meaning of Moiraine's apparent willingness to give up who we came to believe she was, is not the only believable explanation. I could make a plausible case that Moiraine was testing some of those "paths" she saw in her future not knowing what she was coming out to now that she had been rescued. Thom's answer likely told her something about the state of the world.

No, we don't have to take it into account. Because those will be dealt with in her future actions. This is about her escape, not her future.

Tamyrlin
10-17-2011, 01:19 PM
Mat could have given up his eye in any number of ways, Tam, don't give me that. It just so happened that it was deliberately set up so that Moiraine was at her weakest when she was rescued. I don't have an issue with the nudity in and of itself. I have an issue with how it was treated.

Plot-wise, it was also an outward manifestation of her inward weakness. It was also one that was not exhibited as being overcome, but rather taken care of for her. By Thom.


It's too simple to make the nakedness about Moiraine and Thom. The Finns were playing Mat too. She was on display to evoke Mat's desire to rescue her and to give up his FRICKIN EYE. They displayed her in a way that would affect Mat too.


You're right. If Sanderson "fixes" this, I'll be a happy camper and this trial will go down as a heroic right-of-passage, so to speak. But as it stands now, it's a rather ridiculous weakening of an otherwise strong female character.


I'll host the party for us, but I have a hard time believing this will be our lasting memory of Moiraine.


I disagree. She still could have been a prisoner, just unable to leave. She didn't have to be stripped of everything she was, Tam. There was no "sacrifice" here. She got lucky they learned their lesson with Lanfear, essentially.


No sacrifice? That diminishes what Mat and Farstrider gave up to bring Moiraine out. They wanted Mat and his eye and they presented Moiraine in such a way as give them the best chances for that outcome. The Finns are not stupid.


No, we don't have to take it into account. Because those will be dealt with in her future actions. This is about her escape, not her future.

We should take into account Moiraine's potential motivations for anything Moiraine has ever said and will say, considering Jordan painted a clear path from her letter to Rand about knowing what would happen after she got out, if she got out, to this moment. If Moiraine was serious, that she would have given it all up and run away with Thom, then I would agree with your sentiment, but I don't accept that Moiraine has given up nor that she would have, nor that she planned to do so.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 01:26 PM
It's too simple to make the nakedness about Moiraine and Thom. The Finns were playing Mat too. She was on display to evoke Mat's desire to rescue her and to give up his FRICKIN EYE. They displayed her in a way that would affect Mat too.
MAT wasn't the one who risked scalding to save her.


I'll host the party for us, but I have a hard time believing this will be our lasting memory of Moiraine. Hope you're right. But I have no faith any more. She was my last best hope for a mature, strong female character.



No sacrifice? That diminishes what Mat and Farstrider gave up to bring Moiraine out. They wanted Mat and his eye and they presented Moiraine in such a way as give them the best chances for that outcome. The Finns are not stupid.
I wasn't talking about the Finns. And uh... you forget Olver won the Snakes and Foxes game he was playing with Talmanes. That by itself diminishes any sacrifice and cheapens Farstrider's death and makes Moiraine's rape utterly and completely pointless.


We should take into account Moiraine's potential motivations for anything Moiraine has ever said and will say, considering Jordan painted a clear path from her letter to Rand about knowing what would happen after she got out, if she got out, to this moment. If Moiraine was serious, that she would have given it all up and run away with Thom, then I would agree with your sentiment, but I don't accept that Moiraine has given up nor that she would have, nor that she planned to do so.
Then you make her a lying, manipulative bitch willing to play on the affections of the man she loves. That's not in character, either.

fdsaf3
10-17-2011, 01:28 PM
Don't forget, she's a Blue. Which means when she backs a cause she backs a cause, but yet, here she is, instead of being determined to see her one raison d'etre through, that of ushering the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle, or at least, even checking up on him, she's willing to throw everything, EVERYTHING, away for Thom.

I had a similar thought when I read those scenes. After some thought, I came to the realization that her cause had ended. The Last Battle is starting, and Rand made it. Maybe not as whole or as smoothly as she would have hoped, but he made it. Everyone is going to have to pitch in for the Last Battle, but as far as I'm concerned she is entitled to a bit of a break.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 01:39 PM
I had a similar thought when I read those scenes. After some thought, I came to the realization that her cause had ended. The Last Battle is starting, and Rand made it. Maybe not as whole or as smoothly as she would have hoped, but he made it. Everyone is going to have to pitch in for the Last Battle, but as far as I'm concerned she is entitled to a bit of a break.

She's not done yet. Or she wouldn't make the offer, she'd just tell him they should retire and enjoy their last days before the world ends.

Davian93
10-17-2011, 01:51 PM
We know its not over because Min had the vision stating that Moiraine was the key to Rand's victory...thus she obviously knows something that will help him win the Last Battle.

Tamyrlin
10-17-2011, 02:32 PM
MAT wasn't the one who risked scalding to save her.


To me the scalding was the least of what was sacrificed. I'm assuming they would have dropped that prison cell as part of the conditions if they had waited; Thom jumped in because he's gallant and all that. The Finns wanted Mat. That is why they kept her and held her and put her on display.


Hope you're right. But I have no faith any more. She was my last best hope for a mature, strong female character.


She's still mature and strong and fallible, but weakened by her run-in with the Finns. Hell, Rand was taken prisoner and is still mentally disturbed from that event. Although, I can agree, when putting his escape against hers, for Moiraine a more Rand-like escape would have been nice where Finns burned and she took control, but the conditions of her torture and escape fit the realm and the characters involved enough for me to believe it was something more than a simple damsel in distress moment.


I wasn't talking about the Finns. And uh... you forget Olver won the Snakes and Foxes game he was playing with Talmanes. That by itself diminishes any sacrifice and cheapens Farstrider's death and makes Moiraine's rape utterly and completely pointless.


How does Olver winning the game diminish all of the sacrifices made to get Moiraine out?


Then you make her a lying, manipulative bitch willing to play on the affections of the man she loves. That's not in character, either.
[/quote]

Moiraine isn't manipulative? Why would it make her a bitch? The scenario I put forward was for Moiraine to hear herself asking Thom a question in the future Rings and learning that his answer meant a variety of different things. Why would she screw with the future like that by not asking simply because it seemed out of her character at the time she saw it? Plus, maybe she saw in the future if he did answer yes, that it was a future she could live with happily. It's hard to know what seeing the future laid out like that would do to any of us.

And if it wasn't that scenario, and it was truly what she was thinking that she would give it up, I wasn't proposing that she would lie. I was proposing the concept that she said it believing that he would never ask her to give it up, but re-affirming between them that he accepted her life as an Aes Sedai. Was it possible that he would have said yes? Yes. But was it likely? No. And maybe it was just poorly written.

But then again I read way too much into the plot and meaning of these books than actually ever comes to be. :)

Landro
10-17-2011, 02:35 PM
She got lucky they learned their lesson with Lanfear, essentially

All we know about what happened to Lanfear is second hand knowledge. Just because the Finns said so doesn't mean they didn't lie. They could have lied on purpose just so they could siphon some more emotions from Moiraine.

ShadowbaneX
10-17-2011, 02:40 PM
Min doesn't get much respect from most people. Sure, the Wise Ones do, but they can channel and realise her ability. The Aes Sedai treat her as a tool and most other people just see her as a path to Rand.

Faile has some merits, but again, a lot of those are tied to Perrin.

Sulin is a good warrior, but as we saw in aCoS she just wants to be a soldier, not a leader.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 03:04 PM
All we know about what happened to Lanfear is second hand knowledge. Just because the Finns said so doesn't mean they didn't lie. They could have lied on purpose just so they could siphon some more emotions from Moiraine.

I don't have my books with me, nor anyway to search at the moment, but IIRC, she says she witnessed her death. Given that women can feel each other hold Saidar, she wouldn't need the Eelfins to tell her a damned thing.

Kimon
10-17-2011, 03:10 PM
I don't have my books with me, nor anyway to search at the moment, but IIRC, she says she witnessed her death. Given that women can feel each other hold Saidar, she wouldn't need the Eelfins to tell her a damned thing.

She didn't witness her death, and makes clear that she isn't sure whether Lanfear is alive or dead:

"They claimed to have killed Lanfear by draining her too quickly, though I think they may have been trying to make me afraid. A man was there once, when they woke me. He said I was not the one he wanted."

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 03:11 PM
To me the scalding was the least of what was sacrificed. I'm assuming they would have dropped that prison cell as part of the conditions if they had waited; Thom jumped in because he's gallant and all that. The Finns wanted Mat. That is why they kept her and held her and put her on display.

Mat showed almost no reaction to her being nude other than mild embarrassment.



She's still mature and strong and fallible, but weakened by her run-in with the Finns. Hell, Rand was taken prisoner and is still mentally disturbed from that event. Although, I can agree, when putting his escape against hers, for Moiraine a more Rand-like escape would have been nice where Finns burned and she took control, but the conditions of her torture and escape fit the realm and the characters involved enough for me to believe it was something more than a simple damsel in distress moment.

No, it didn't. Moiraine is smarter than that. Hell, she's smarter than Rand.



How does Olver winning the game diminish all of the sacrifices made to get Moiraine out?

Because it shows they can be beaten. All Mat had to do was... oh... open Verin's letter and let Mo wait a bit.


Moiraine isn't manipulative? Why would it make her a bitch? The scenario I put forward was for Moiraine to hear herself asking Thom a question in the future Rings and learning that his answer meant a variety of different things. Why would she screw with the future like that by not asking simply because it seemed out of her character at the time she saw it? Plus, maybe she saw in the future if he did answer yes, that it was a future she could live with happily. It's hard to know what seeing the future laid out like that would do to any of us.[quote] That, Tam, is YOUR speculation. It wasn't put forward in the scene. And yes, while Moiraine is manipulative, she's exhibited there are lines she wouldn't cross. Starting off her relationship with Thom with a lie would be too stupid for words. And Moiraine isn't stupid. She also does care for Thom.

[quote]
And if it wasn't that scenario, and it was truly what she was thinking that she would give it up, I wasn't proposing that she would lie. I was proposing the concept that she said it believing that he would never ask her to give it up, but re-affirming between them that he accepted her life as an Aes Sedai. Was it possible that he would have said yes? Yes. But was it likely? No. And maybe it was just poorly written.

But then again I read way too much into the plot and meaning of these books than actually ever comes to be. :)

That's still as manipulative as me asking Bryan if these pants make my ass look big. /joke

Frankly, Tam, she didn't have to ask in the fashion in which she did. And you don't know that she had to. We're not given that knowledge at all.

Kimon
10-17-2011, 03:25 PM
Because it shows they can be beaten. All Mat had to do was... oh... open Verin's letter and let Mo wait a bit.



We have two relevant dream-prophecies by Egwene...

tPoD Ch 15:
Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

Presumably these two were Verin and Moiraine, the two letters, Verin's or Moiraine's. He couldn't deal with both.

But there is also this...

tFoH Ch 15:
Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 03:29 PM
We have two relevant dream-prophecies by Egwene...

tPoD Ch 15:


Presumably these two were Verin and Moiraine, the two letters, Verin's or Moiraine's. He couldn't deal with both.

But there is also this...

tFoH Ch 15:


OK... so you're saying Jordan let it all get set up so that he could let his freak flag fly? Good to know.

I don't really give a rat's ass what the prophecies said. My point was that it didn't have to go down that way and did an unspeakable thing in breaking down a strong character for absolutely no purpose.

Weiramon
10-17-2011, 03:45 PM
Burn me, it's a beginning, but not the beginning (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617&highlight=damsel).

Gilshalos Sedai
10-17-2011, 03:50 PM
Burn me, it's a beginning, but not the beginning (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617&highlight=damsel).

I'm aware of the archived thread. I promised Frenzy I'd reopen the argument if, when I got there in the books, I was just as pissed off as she was.

I reopened it.

The Unreasoner
10-17-2011, 04:50 PM
You know when I saw the thread title, I thought it was an Egwene-bashing thread.

But with Moiraine's case specifically, if it were an isolated incident, I wouldn't have thought much of it. But many women of power have found it stripped from them, as has been noted. I'd even add Elaida and Cadsuane to the list. Elaida could have been a much more impressive bad guy. Cadsuane became an obnoxious caricature in recent books.

Now, I do not think that Siuan's case has been adequately addressed, but I feel that her part is more or less done. Moiraine though almost certainly still has more to do. Whether it will seem to be 'worth it' remains to be seen.

I will point out that whatever we take from the books (even post AMoL), it seems fairly clear that Moiraine was never intended to be a weak character. I would think that her storyline was not intended to show a woman weakened, then saved by a man. So, at least in the mind of RJ, Moiraine will ultimately be a strong and independent character at the end of the day.

Whether or not the reader shares that view...we will have to RAFO.

Toss the dice
10-17-2011, 08:01 PM
OK... so you're saying Jordan let it all get set up so that he could let his freak flag fly? Good to know.

I don't really give a rat's ass what the prophecies said. My point was that it didn't have to go down that way and did an unspeakable thing in breaking down a strong character for absolutely no purpose.

I pretty much disagree with your entire opening argument, and hopefully I'll have time to get a little more in-depth as to why.

I don't understand why you think Moiraine's character was tarnished. They found her naked. So what? She was fed upon, which reduced her ability to channel and they found her physically weak. So what? So why does Mat think that Moiraine looks stronger than she ever has before? Read the scene again and maybe you'll figure it out the second time around.

Moiraine has always been the #1 Aes Sedai when it comes to superior character compared to the rest of them. After her ToG rescue, it is quite obvious to everyone but you that she is even stronger in character than before. She has been put through extremely trying times, somewhat akin to basic training in the military. She has been broken down and reforged even better than before, given a new perspective, a new focus, blah blah. Hey wait a minute...wasn't Rand reforged in a similar fashion? Surprise surprise, he is Jesus now. Badass Jesus. I don't count that a negative thing, and neither is the new Moiraine.

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2011, 03:29 AM
She's still mature and strong and fallible, but weakened by her run-in with the Finns. Hell, Rand was taken prisoner and is still mentally disturbed from that event. Although, I can agree, when putting his escape against hers, for Moiraine a more Rand-like escape would have been nice where Finns burned and she took control, but the conditions of her torture and escape fit the realm and the characters involved enough for me to believe it was something more than a simple damsel in distress moment.But the big difference is not that Rand is tougher than Moiraine. He may be, but I'm not at all sure of that.

The really big difference is that the *finn are competent, and the AS are not. That is why Rand could walk (well, crawl) away from what had happened, while Moiraine was out for the count until she was entirely safe.

AS have captured a number of Forsaken, and all those got away (until Perrin showed Egwene how to use TAR, at least). The *finn captured one Forsaken that we know of, and she did not get away, but either died or was bought free.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 09:41 AM
I pretty much disagree with your entire opening argument, and hopefully I'll have time to get a little more in-depth as to why.

I don't understand why you think Moiraine's character was tarnished. They found her naked. So what? She was fed upon, which reduced her ability to channel and they found her physically weak. So what? So why does Mat think that Moiraine looks stronger than she ever has before? Read the scene again and maybe you'll figure it out the second time around.

Moiraine has always been the #1 Aes Sedai when it comes to superior character compared to the rest of them. After her ToG rescue, it is quite obvious to everyone but you that she is even stronger in character than before. She has been put through extremely trying times, somewhat akin to basic training in the military. She has been broken down and reforged even better than before, given a new perspective, a new focus, blah blah. Hey wait a minute...wasn't Rand reforged in a similar fashion? Surprise surprise, he is Jesus now. Badass Jesus. I don't count that a negative thing, and neither is the new Moiraine.

Everyone but me, eh? Really? So everyone in this thread who've said they agreed with me... they don't count?

It very well might be a "rebirth," in which case, it's part of her hero's journey and I'll stop objecting. But that's not apparent as it stands now. As it stands, a strong female character has been abused and weakened with a great deal of rape imagery and offers to give up her last remaining power base for a man. What you're talking about is in the future. As the scene stands now, I find it offensive.

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2011, 09:48 AM
Is the "I'll give up the angreal" really such a big concession as you make it out to be?

We know that there were already a lot of AS in the Hall who wanted Moiraine to give back the angreal she'd "borrowed" in the earlier books. Would they let her keep such a thing now that she is hardly even worthy of the title AS anymore? Because that's how they think, with their "inherent strength is all" attitude.
Sure, based on her current reputation and status she may manage to fight them off for a couple of years. Big deal, when she has a natural life expectancy of over 250 more years anyway.

So I think that she wouldn't really expect to be able to keep the angreal anyway.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 09:50 AM
Considering that's outside of her control and not a voluntary relinquishment for "Twooo Wuv," that doesn't really matter, Gonzo.

Also, again, that's in the future. That is not right now.

Frenzy
10-18-2011, 10:25 AM
I don't understand why you think Moiraine's character was tarnished. They found her naked. So what?
Did you not see what Gilshalos wrote in her very first post that the lack of clothing was a plot device for the readers' benefit to highlight Moiraine's utter helplessness?
She was fed upon, which reduced her ability to channel and they found her physically weak. So what?
This was never an issue, other than being used to set up a completely meaningless exchange between Moiraine & Thom and her frivolous attempt to show love by offering to give up even more power. If that scene didn't happen, Moiraine's being weakened & fed upon would've been just fine. and believable. and useful to demonstrate her sacrifice and strength of will.

So why does Mat think that Moiraine looks stronger than she ever has before? Read the scene again and maybe you'll figure it out the second time around.
Oh, i'm pretty sure she got it. Moiraine was stronger and more beautiful and blah blah because she was humbled, weak, cast down, etc. That's revolting.

Moiraine has always been the #1 Aes Sedai when it comes to superior character compared to the rest of them.
Hence why some of us so pissed off
After her ToG rescue, it is quite obvious to everyone but you that she is even stronger in character than before. She has been put through extremely trying times, somewhat akin to basic training in the military. She has been broken down and reforged even better than before, given a new perspective, a new focus, blah blah.
you did not just say that, did you? Really? Wow, i bet that uppity little dame should be downright thankful she got broken down and reforged and saved by her man. Because she obviously was a weak ungrateful wench before she got turned right by her experiences.

Is THAT was is obvious to everyone but us? Because if it is, then frack you very much i'll keep my blissful ignorance.

Hey wait a minute...wasn't Rand reforged in a similar fashion?
Hey wait a minute...didn't Rand participate in his own rescue by breaking a shield, blowing up his box, and Stilling multiple Aes Sedai? Or did they haul his naked unconscious ass out of the proverbial fire when i wasn't looking.
Surprise surprise, he is Jesus now. Badass Jesus. I don't count that a negative thing, and neither is the new Moiraine.
Rand serves a different purpose in the story than Moiraine, so badass jesus is an appropriate character development. Moiraine's character, as it stands now, has been ripped to shreds. THE best character in the series, turned into a quivering pile of useless. And you and your "everyone else" don't have a problem with this?

Toss the dice
10-18-2011, 11:37 AM
I think people are reading way too much into Moiraine's weak and "helpless" state after she was rescued. She had been through so much and we got to see her essentially taking a break from the torture during 15 or so minutes after they were out of the ToG. Now, I WILL have a problem with it and think more along your lines if she CONTINUES to be that way. Do you think she will continue to act the same way she did immediately after her rescue? I very much do not. She has obviously changed mentally, and is even stronger now than she was before. She is more real, more open -- even more distanced from what a "good" Aes Sedai should be like. And she is also tougher, because of her ordeal. I really don't know what you're complaining about.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 11:47 AM
So, it's OK that she was stripped of her power because she'll come through it stronger?


She's not "taking a break." I'm sorry, what hero in this series have we seen get to "take a break?" Why should she get to be so special all of a sudden?

Toss the dice
10-18-2011, 12:04 PM
So, it's OK that she was stripped of her power because she'll come through it stronger?


She's not "taking a break." I'm sorry, what hero in this series have we seen get to "take a break?" Why should she get to be so special all of a sudden?

I never said Moiraine being stripped of her Power would be preferable to her NOT being stripped of her Power, regardless of the fact that she is now stronger due to her ordeal. You seem to have a very personal aversion to the fact that Moiraine lost her Power, just because. It's not a positive thing by any means, and Moiraine is one of my favorite characters, but I'm not going to literally start bawling in my living room because of it.

Plenty of other people have had things taken from them, including Mat. Moiraine surely went through much more hell and torture than Mat did in the ToG, but I would say Mat's end result is quite a bit worse than Moiraine's. She may have lost a lot of Power, but she isn't stilled, and she has the angreal, at least for now. Mat lost an eye. I'd take Moiraine's condition in a heartbeat over his.

She sure the hell is taking a break. She has been in the ToG being fed upon for the last however long, being tortured. As the part with her leaves off, she's sitting on the ground wrapped in Thom's cloak, about 15 minutes after getting out of the Tower. They're doing nothing but waiting, until it's time for Grady to make the gateway so they can get back, and she's recovering.

It's pretty obvious that now you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing. Dig that hole.

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2011, 12:19 PM
So, it's OK that she was stripped of her power because she'll come through it stronger?I don't think she'll get out of it stronger than she was going in. I do think that going in, knowing that at the very best she would come out of it as she did now, was a rather sure sign of her strength.

I also think that while she was sitting there, outside the ToG, she was just starting to begin recovering from shock. Look at Senator McCain: he wasn't tortured nearly as badly as Moiraine was, it was decades ago, and he still can't stop talking about it.

She's not "taking a break." I'm sorry, what hero in this series have we seen get to "take a break?"Perrin, while earning his hammer in Tear, waiting for Rand to storm the Stone.
Mat, dicing in Cairhien and environs, while waiting to be launched at Sammael.
Rand, strolling down the mountain after having seen the Light.
Morgase, being treated as a noble again after she decided to reveal her identity.
Tuon, going traipsing off on a blind date with her future husband, rather than getting butchered with the rest of the imperial family in Seandar.
Lan, after his wedding and before launching himself into a futile assault on superior forces.

Why should she get to be so special all of a sudden?She is Moiraine, you know. That means that she is rather special.

Still, taking a break isn't really a sign of specialness, as my list should indicate. I am quite sure a lot more examples can be found, too.

Frenzy
10-18-2011, 12:55 PM
Still not sure what purpose her being a rag doll sack of potatoes during her rescue and a lovestruck ninny mouthing meaningless platitudes after her rescue served, other than a ham-fisted attempt to write a daring rescue of the maiden most fair by the dashing heroes standing up to impossible odds against a formidable foul otherworldly evil.

WinespringBrother
10-18-2011, 01:04 PM
I don't think she'll get out of it stronger than she was going in. I do think that going in, knowing that at the very best she would come out of it as she did now, was a rather sure sign of her strength.

I also think that while she was sitting there, outside the ToG, she was just starting to begin recovering from shock. Look at Senator McCain: he wasn't tortured nearly as badly as Moiraine was, it was decades ago, and he still can't stop talking about it.

Perrin, while earning his hammer in Tear, waiting for Rand to storm the Stone.
Mat, dicing in Cairhien and environs, while waiting to be launched at Sammael.
Rand, strolling down the mountain after having seen the Light.
Morgase, being treated as a noble again after she decided to reveal her identity.
Tuon, going traipsing off on a blind date with her future husband, rather than getting butchered with the rest of the imperial family in Seandar.
Lan, after his wedding and before launching himself into a futile assault on superior forces.

She is Moiraine, you know. That means that she is rather special.

Still, taking a break isn't really a sign of specialness, as my list should indicate. I am quite sure a lot more examples can be found, too.

I'm happy to have my favorite character back, though somewhat disappointed in the presentation. Hopefully the ToG sequence is not indicative of what is to come.

However, characters do get breaks after experiencing traumas, so to add to your list (in no particular order):

Rand after Dumai's Wells, took a day to recover/mourn/disperse his forces, before returning to deal with Cairhien

Rand after his injuries at Fain's hands at the rebel camp in TCOS, took 2 days (IIRC) while unconscious healing. ETA: Rand was hauled around like a sack of potatoes by Darlin Sisnera, until they found alternate transportation.

Egwene after being hurt by Lanfear in TFOH took weeks before she was supposed to be healthy enough to go back to tel'aran'rhiod though she went anyway

Rand took 5 days to wake up/heal after his fight with Ishamael at Falme in TGH

Perrin rested a day after being healed by Alanna while in the Two Rivers in TSR

Mat was told by Moiraine to rest a day after being healed from darkhound saliva in Rhuidean in TFOH

Landro
10-18-2011, 01:09 PM
Frenzy, you're not giving Moraine proper credit. She wasn't some helpless damsel. She had the guts to take on Lanfear even though she knew she was nowhere near as strong. She willingly paid the price for getting rid of Lanfear. Calling her some helpless damsel is an insult to her sacrifice.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 01:12 PM
I never said Moiraine being stripped of her Power would be preferable to her NOT being stripped of her Power, regardless of the fact that she is now stronger due to her ordeal. You seem to have a very personal aversion to the fact that Moiraine lost her Power, just because. It's not a positive thing by any means, and Moiraine is one of my favorite characters, but I'm not going to literally start bawling in my living room because of it.

So, she's stronger due to her ordeal. Right. You know what? Nevermind. I'll leave this point stand. For now.

And stop making personal assumptions about me. You don't know me, you've never met me and I've never spoken to you that I remember in my entire history of this board. You don't get to address what I think or feel personally until I've argued and fought with you for ten+ years or met you in person.


Plenty of other people have had things taken from them, including Mat. Moiraine surely went through much more hell and torture than Mat did in the ToG, but I would say Mat's end result is quite a bit worse than Moiraine's. She may have lost a lot of Power, but she isn't stilled, and she has the angreal, at least for now. Mat lost an eye. I'd take Moiraine's condition in a heartbeat over his.

You're still missing the point. Mat gave it up voluntarily. And I'm not ignoring Mat's plight. I've already said why I'm arguing this, here, now and not anything else.

She sure the hell is taking a break. She has been in the ToG being fed upon for the last however long, being tortured. As the part with her leaves off, she's sitting on the ground wrapped in Thom's cloak, about 15 minutes after getting out of the Tower. They're doing nothing but waiting, until it's time for Grady to make the gateway so they can get back, and she's recovering. That's not the "break" I was talking about. I was referring to her offer of giving up everything for "Twoo Wuv."


It's pretty obvious that now you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing. Dig that hole.
Again, with the personal assumptions.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 01:15 PM
Frenzy, you're not giving Moraine proper credit. She wasn't some helpless damsel. She had the guts to take on Lanfear even though she knew she was nowhere near as strong. She willingly paid the price for getting rid of Lanfear. Calling her some helpless damsel is an insult to her sacrifice.

What was the price that she was required to pay?

Were we told?

THAT's what I take issue with. There is no explanation for her appearance and the imagery surrounding her rescue. Instead, we're left with the destruction of a formerly strong character in rather disturbing circumstances.

Crispin's Crispian
10-18-2011, 02:36 PM
Still not sure what purpose her being a rag doll sack of potatoes during her rescue and a lovestruck ninny mouthing meaningless platitudes after her rescue served, other than a ham-fisted attempt to write a daring rescue of the maiden most fair by the dashing heroes standing up to impossible odds against a formidable foul otherworldly evil.

I guess I'm not really sure what you were hoping for. You were hoping Mat and Thom would stroll in smoking their pipes and telling dirty chauvinist jokes, only to stumble onto Moiraine, who while actively fending off the *'Finn (after 250-odd days) then has to whip out a second set of weaves to save their stupid asses from certain death?

OK, I'll admit that would kick ass. But how realistic is that? Moiraine knew going in that she would have to be saved, and so did we. I think it would be pretty unrealistic to have her still showing the wherewithal to actively participate in the rescue after so long. A little guidance might have been helpful and possible, I guess, but I don't find it unreasonable or demeaning whatsoever that she was unable to do anything. It would be a challenge for any author to write a scene like that without being criticized for sexism. The minute we knew there had to be a rescue, the potential for "demeaning a strong woman" raised its head.

Moreover, her attitude after being rescued never struck me as anything other than relieved, both that she was saved and that she really would be able to marry Thom. I guess I'm a romantic at heart, but I rather like the idea that Moiraine showed her sensitive side for once. It doesn't weaken her at all. Indeed, it's rather in keeping with the whole love-fest enlightenment ceremony Rand performed up on Dragonmount. Of course Moiraine is going to come to the conclusion that love conquers all. She's the second smartest character in the books!

Davian93
10-18-2011, 02:38 PM
She's the second smartest character in the books!

1. Bela
2. Moiraine


I agree.

Landro
10-18-2011, 02:47 PM
What was the price that she was required to pay?

At the time she made her choice, she knew she would deprive Rand of an AS adviser he trusted and she did not know if her rescue would succeed which would might cost her her life.

The price she ended up paying was depriving Rand of an adviser he trusted as well as losing a significant portion of her strength in the OP.

Moiraine isn't the first character to be crippled. Rand, Mat, Siuan, Leanne have preceded her and Perrin will likely follow.

Moiraine's loss of strength in the OP isn't a major obstacle. Aside from Damer (maybe) being able to Heal her, she still has a very strong Angreal and she could also draw on the strength of a circle like Egwene did when the Seanchan attacked.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 02:57 PM
At the time she made her choice, she knew she would deprive Rand of an AS adviser he trusted and she did not know if her rescue would succeed which would might cost her her life.

The price she ended up paying was depriving Rand of an adviser he trusted as well as losing a significant portion of her strength in the OP.

Moiraine isn't the first character to be crippled. Rand, Mat, Siuan, Leanne have preceded her and Perrin will likely follow.

Moiraine's loss of strength in the OP isn't a major obstacle. Aside from Damer (maybe) being able to Heal her, she still has a very strong Angreal and she could also draw on the strength of a circle like Egwene did when the Seanchan attacked.

You've also missed the point where it's not the loss of strength I take issue with. It was how it was presented.

Davian93
10-18-2011, 03:03 PM
"I'm sorry, Moiraine, we didn't think to bring any shoes for you. Also, the only food we have is some fresh cold cuts and sandwich bread which is over in that kitchen tent..could you be a dear and fetch it for us...preferably in sandwich form?"

"Oh yes Thom, anything for you, you big strong man!"


Basically my take on it.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 03:08 PM
Seeing as how Princess Leia's already been referenced, I'm guessing having the boys get in there, find Moiraine, then she helps them escape, perhaps by figuring out the clue of the ashandarei, or, you know, just being clothed might have been a start.

There's being rescued and there's being the loot for defeating the GM's nefarious plots. It could have been that those three were needed to go in there to get to Moiraine and free her. It didn't necessarily mean that she couldn't have then been required through knowledge she'd gained, to help them get out again.

As it was, it was Mat's inability to realize that his spear was something more (although to his credit, none of us realized it either), that got Jain killed. Hell, even if Moiraine had been coherent enough to even suggest that it was something about the ashanderai that was needed to help them get out, that would have been a start, and easily could have been given away by them gloating about him not realizing it.

Or, you know, clothes.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 03:11 PM
Aside from Damer (maybe) being able to Heal her, she still has a very strong Angreal and she could also draw on the strength of a circle like Egwene did when the Seanchan attacked.

I've got a feeling that if someone were able to say, Heal Lanfear/Cyndane they likely would have done that.

Also, the strength of the circle that Egwene used is going to pale in comparison to the circle of Rand, Nynaeve & callandor (www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=197), but that's another topic.

Davian93
10-18-2011, 03:11 PM
Clothes and consciousness would have been nice.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 03:13 PM
you forgot the "oh, and can you leave the cloak? I'm getting a little chilly."

JOS
10-18-2011, 03:28 PM
I read everyones comments, but didn't want to construct a piecemeal response with quotes interjected this afternoon, so here goes a general response to the conversation:

I think she will snap out of it for the most part, a bit of PTSD after 250 some odd days of having her mind tortured.

I don't think we have to worry about this being a permanent state for Moiraine, as she has been the "take action and kick ass" type even back into New Spring.

I think the whole rescue sequence was an attempt to show her with more human vulnerabilities. Letís face it, she has been all passion and mission through the series, willing to kill or steamroll anyone in the way of her mission. Kind of one dimensional. RJ probably wanted her to be more accessible as a character. Despite this, I think RJ/Brandon overdid it a bit, and it is made worse by leaving a scene like this at the end of the book. I think the original intent for ToM was to include a few more scenes (like the Black Tower battle) and we may have seen her in a stronger state in a few scenes prior to the long wait for aMoL.

I also expected a little more urgency from her to get to Rand and do whatever it is she needs to do to save the world. At this point, I still think it is PTSD that we are seeing and that it was over done.

Crispin's Crispian
10-18-2011, 03:52 PM
Seeing as how Princess Leia's already been referenced, I'm guessing having the boys get in there, find Moiraine, then she helps them escape, perhaps by figuring out the clue of the ashandarei, or, you know, just being clothed might have been a start.

There's being rescued and there's being the loot for defeating the GM's nefarious plots. It could have been that those three were needed to go in there to get to Moiraine and free her. It didn't necessarily mean that she couldn't have then been required through knowledge she'd gained, to help them get out again.

As it was, it was Mat's inability to realize that his spear was something more (although to his credit, none of us realized it either), that got Jain killed. Hell, even if Moiraine had been coherent enough to even suggest that it was something about the ashanderai that was needed to help them get out, that would have been a start, and easily could have been given away by them gloating about him not realizing it.

Or, you know, clothes.

I don't understand why Moiraine would have any idea about Mat's spear. Mat's deduction on the fly was unrealistic enough as it was--having Moiraine somehow figure it out would be patently ridiculous. But I'm quibbling.

Sure, it would have been nice if she could have helped out. Even a token fireball at the end would have made things more interesting. I do disagree that her inability take part is in any way demeaning.

What is so bad about Moiraine being vulnerable? I do agree completely with Gil that her nakedness is symbolic, but vulnerability is not a character trait. I would think that Moiraine saving the shit out of everyone in the first book would tip the scales a bit.

And don't forget Perrin's Dream:

Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest

Here we have Mat not only naked but bound, and strongly associated with the Eel'finn. Maybe there's something to this.

The Unreasoner
10-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Again, I think it needs to be noted that even if we see Moiraine's character demeaned or otherwise insulted/weakened, this was probably not Jordan's intention. We may close AMoL feeling cheated on Moiraine's storyline, but however it ends, it will probably be in a way that 'redeemed' Moiraine, at least in Jordan's mind. Maybe the Siuan/Bryne dialogue in the Amyrlin's Anger chapter was intended to give closure to Siuan's storyline, and somehow restore Siuan's dignity while justifying her loss of power. TtD may be right: maybe we were intended to buy into the notion that Moiraine being symbolically raped by the Finn made her stronger. I would be disappointed if it stopped there, but I still think that however this all ends, Jordan intended Moiraine to finish as a 'strong' woman character.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 04:02 PM
oh, and I'll just leave this here (http://www.sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2011-10-09.gif).

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 04:15 PM
I don't understand why Moiraine would have any idea about Mat's spear. Mat's deduction on the fly was unrealistic enough as it was--having Moiraine somehow figure it out would be patently ridiculous. But I'm quibbling.

Sure, it would have been nice if she could have helped out. Even a token fireball at the end would have made things more interesting. I do disagree that her inability take part is in any way demeaning.

What is so bad about Moiraine being vulnerable? I do agree completely with Gil that her nakedness is symbolic, but vulnerability is not a character trait. I would think that Moiraine saving the shit out of everyone in the first book would tip the scales a bit.

And don't forget Perrin's Dream:



Here we have Mat not only naked but bound, and strongly associated with the Eel'finn. Maybe there's something to this.

Moiraine: Hey Mat. I know we're running for our lives right now, but when they were feeding on my ability to channel, I heard them talk about your spear and laugh a lot like it was some big joke. I think it might be important.

Mat: that's not what Tuon said! Errr, I mean...

As for the other, it's something that this thread got me thinking about. Try for a minute to think of a strong female character in the series that cannot channel and is actually, well and truly, independent. I've yet to find a single character that qualifies. The few close candidates are Birgitte & Sulin and both of them have shown that they'd rather just be soldiers, rather than actual independent leaders.

As for the nakedness, well, I posted that Sinfest comic around here somewhere.

Perrin's dream is interesting, and if it'd actually happened it might be different. Until it's no longer a Dream though it just makes me wonder about Perrin.

JOS
10-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Perrin's dream is interesting, and if it'd actually happened it might be different. Until it's no longer a Dream though it just makes me wonder about Perrin.

Are you suggesting that Faile is a beard? ;)

Weiramon
10-18-2011, 05:17 PM
As for the other, it's something that this thread got me thinking about. Try for a minute to think of a strong female character in the series that cannot channel and is actually, well and truly, independent.

Burn me, there's Amathera, Panarch of Tarabon. Although the Assembly of Lords rejected her claim, she prevailed.

Yet another example of a strong woman who shrugs off nakedness to become . . . an even stronger character who has no need to be a simpering fool beholden to an aged and doddering commoner.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Are you suggesting that Faile is a beard? ;)

that would be part of the joke...either that or Perrin is a little uncertain about things. There, now that the joke is completely dead, shall we move on?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Burn me, there's Amathera, Panarch of Tarabon. Although the Assembly of Lords rejected her claim, she prevailed.

Yet another example of a strong woman who shrugs off nakedness to become . . . an even stronger character who has no need to be a simpering fool beholden to an aged and doddering commoner.

Burn me, she ended up a naked slave dancing girl and rescued by Juilin Sandar. Another Princess In a Tower?

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 05:46 PM
Gil...I wasn't even going to dignify that comment with a response.

Weiramon
10-18-2011, 05:54 PM
Another Princess In a Tower?

Burn my soul, I think you are seeing a pattern that simply isn't there. It's not as though that Sanche woman was once the most powerful woman in the world, and was left screaming and naked as she was stilled, later to become the bootservant of an aged and doddering has-been captain of a ragtag rabble of peasants and general ne'er-do-wells.

Nor is there a hint of a Seanchean captain, raised to the Blood, left to become a shipless wanderer, beholden to an aged and doddering Illianer smuggler.

Why, you might as well claim the First of Mayene established herself as a capable defender of her city's interests and administrator of the Lord Dragon's occupation of Cairhien, only to throw it away over the first handsome fellow to look in her direction.

Or claim that a Queen of Andor swooned over some usurper, later to retreat from her duties to simper after yet another commoner.

No, there is simply no pattern of strong, independent woman turning into simpering lovestruck playtoys, and Moiraine Damodred is just another nail in the coffin of such far-fetched thoughts.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Gil...I wasn't even going to dignify that comment with a response.

Oh, I dunno... It got me the above amusing response.

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 06:43 PM
you might not be as dense as you try to sound Weiramon.

jana
10-18-2011, 08:30 PM
Moiraine is no weaker now than she was before the rescue. There'll be more satisfactory proof of that in the next book. That's all I have to say about that. (Well, her legs might be a little weak since she hasn't walked in months, but she can lift weights for that).

Brita
10-18-2011, 08:49 PM
(Well, her legs might be a little weak since she hasn't walked in months, but she can lift weights for that).

Nothing a little healing can't fix, I'm sure. Handy thing, that channeling business :) I wonder if they have cancer in WoT World?

ShadowbaneX
10-18-2011, 08:49 PM
Sorry Jana, but she's actually been greatly weakened from where she was in tFoH. It's possible that BS can salvage Moiraine's character in the last book, but he's really going to have to work at it. She was the strongest character in the series when she disappeared. As of her rescue, she's been seriously weakened and for seemingly no good reason other than the author wanted to do it that way.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 03:54 AM
I wonder how much of this scene was inspired by RJ's actual experience with things like, you know, actual war, the condition of people after having been tortured for a couple of months, the "take away the clothing of prisoners as that makes them more vulnerable" that is pretty much standard in severe torture, and so forth.

In short, why should RJ have pandered to the Victorian sensibilities of some readers by pretending that the *finn were more decent than, say, the Abu Ghraib soldiers, while throughout the series he has been portraying them as in some ways akin to evil. Not, perhaps, evil by absolute standards, but definitely by human standards.
Add to that that the *finn feed on (human) emotions, and if you then ask how they could get most from the situation, then the way it worked out would be just about it.

And I still think that expecting her to be fully in control of herself after having been through that much torture is not reasonable.
If she had walked out of there in charge of the rescue party, wearing her own clothes, and as inscrutable as she ever was, then the whole episode would've been no more than a vacation for her. In that case, she would not have sacrificed anything other than chance to meddle in world affairs for a while.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 06:13 AM
There's literature as a reflection of the real world and then there's literature as, well, literary devices. It's the second sense that I believe most people are protesting. Yes, real life sucks. During war people are horrible monsters and will do anything.

These books are not real life though, they're fiction and as I've previously said, in this work of fiction is exceedingly hard to find strong female characters, that aren't in some way tied to, or significantly defined by who they have as a partner.

Moiraine was one of the few left who were defined that way and of the other few options, Sorelia & Cadsuane being #'s 1 & 2, those two are less interested in Rand and more interested in the Aiel & the Prophecy respectfully.

That's not to say that Moiraine was uninterested in Rand fulfilling the Prophecies, she was also interested in getting Rand where he needed to go, but she also seemed to care about Rand himself and not just what he was supposed to do...and they went and stripped her naked and made her in to a prize to be escaped with, not a person that was being saved.

Moiraine didn't need to lead her escape, she just had to be conscious, preferably clothed, and at least able to help. Give some timely suggestions which aided in the escape, show a reason why she's so important to the Light's victory and not just as Thom's twu lost luv that he'd move heaven and earth to save.

Hell, you could have replaced Moiraine with a sword, an ter'angreal or some other macguffin critical to Rand's success and it probably would have come off even been because at least it wouldn't have been some naked helpless chick.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 09:06 AM
There's literature as a reflection of the real world and then there's literature as, well, literary devices. It's the second sense that I believe most people are protesting. Yes, real life sucks. During war people are horrible monsters and will do anything.

These books are not real life though, they're fiction and as I've previously said, in this work of fiction is exceedingly hard to find strong female characters, that aren't in some way tied to, or significantly defined by who they have as a partner.

Moiraine was one of the few left who were defined that way and of the other few options, Sorelia & Cadsuane being #'s 1 & 2, those two are less interested in Rand and more interested in the Aiel & the Prophecy respectfully.

That's not to say that Moiraine was uninterested in Rand fulfilling the Prophecies, she was also interested in getting Rand where he needed to go, but she also seemed to care about Rand himself and not just what he was supposed to do...and they went and stripped her naked and made her in to a prize to be escaped with, not a person that was being saved.

Moiraine didn't need to lead her escape, she just had to be conscious, preferably clothed, and at least able to help. Give some timely suggestions which aided in the escape, show a reason why she's so important to the Light's victory and not just as Thom's twu lost luv that he'd move heaven and earth to save.

Hell, you could have replaced Moiraine with a sword, an ter'angreal or some other macguffin critical to Rand's success and it probably would have come off even been because at least it wouldn't have been some naked helpless chick.

Emphasis mine. Thank you, SBX.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 09:57 AM
Emphasis mine. Thank you, SBX.

For more or less regurgitating what you said in your OP? Why? I know you objected to it for literary reasons, I read your posts. I guess most others haven't because they're using non-literary reasons to defend it.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 10:02 AM
But should RJ have abandoned reality in favor of neat literary tricks here?

If Moiraine had just walked out of the ToG with her full powers and in complete control of her hairdo, then what would her 'sacrifice' in tackling Lanfear have meant?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 10:07 AM
But should RJ have abandoned reality in favor of neat literary tricks here?

If Moiraine had just walked out of the ToG with her full powers and in complete control of her hairdo, then what would her 'sacrifice' in tackling Lanfear have meant?

Yeah, because that's what I'm saying she should have done.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 10:08 AM
Not saying that Muppet and you know it. There was a way in which RJ could have put Moiraine in the Tower, have her help prison, had her suffer and make that time seem a true sacrifice without serious damaging or humiliating her...that wasn't what he wrote though.

This section was poorly executed and possibly poorly written as well. As previously said, simply letting her keep her clothes or be conscious would have been a start. As it was, and as I said earlier this morning, you could have replaced her with an inanimate object, and the scene would have been better. The fact that it was the strongest remaining female character in the series that this was done too is just bad writting.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 10:08 AM
For more or less regurgitating what you said in your OP? Why? I know you objected to it for literary reasons, I read your posts. I guess most others haven't because they're using non-literary reasons to defend it.

Because it needs to be reiterated every 4th page or so?

Frenzy
10-19-2011, 10:21 AM
Because it needs to be reiterated every 4th page or so?

What? you said something a whole page ago and expect me to remember? Who the hell do you think you are?!

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 10:30 AM
What? you said something a whole page ago and expect me to remember? Who the hell do you think you are?!
perhaps people would remember it better if you put it in a quote block. Those are the most important parts of the discussion right? The quotes?

David Selig
10-19-2011, 10:33 AM
Hell, she even offers to leave the order. So, not only is she weakened, and passive, she's offering to pitch the thing that has given her her identity and strength and a reason to live for decades all for a man? Don't forget, she's a Blue. Which means when she backs a cause she backs a cause, but yet, here she is, instead of being determined to see her one raison d'etre through, that of ushering the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle, or at least, even checking up on him, she's willing to throw everything, EVERYTHING, away for Thom.
Where did she offer to leave the Aes Sedai? Even without the angreal, she's still an Aes Sedai.

I very much dislike the "damsel in distress" plots in this series, Jordan's love for the "a woman gets captured" plotlines (I've lost count of how many of those we've had so far even counting only the major 6-7 female characters) and his often implausible reasons for getting the women naked (like most Aes Sedai rituals). But at last this time Moiraine didn't get in trouble because she was stupid and/or reckless, she had to intervene to save the Dragon who was being a complete moron at the time.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 10:49 AM
As previously said, simply letting her keep her clothes or be conscious would have been a start.Yes, but on the other hand, that would have been very unrealistic.

As Mat kept saying, the *finn knew that they were coming. Heck, they even got advance warning, when he started making music and tossing fireworks around for no particular reason.
The *finn feed on human emotions. So they wanted the rescue party to be as emotional as possible, and for that the method chosen was a lot more effective than the proposed "let her seem all right".

... and his often implausible reasons for getting the women naked (like most Aes Sedai rituals).There is a very good reason for the nakedness in those rituals: that is to prevent male channelers from sneaking in and being declared AS. The fact that the AS forget that they'd be able to feel whether or not someone can channel sai'dar is just a minor oversight on their part. Completely understandable too, if you know your AS.

But at last this time Moiraine didn't get in trouble because she was stupid and/or reckless, she had to intervene to save the Dragon who was being a complete moron at the time.Exactly. She had known what she was doing. She had knowingly chosen a fate worse than death. Showing a little bit of the aftermath was, in my view, intended to give the readers some clue as to what she'd been going through.

arioch
10-19-2011, 10:52 AM
Hm yes let's conveniently forget the times the male characters got their asses in a fire and had to have the female main characters save their bacon. RJ is a very big believer in "what goes around, comes around" in his storytelling in Wheel of Time.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 11:02 AM
Hm yes let's conveniently forget the times the male characters got their asses in a fire and had to have the female main characters save their bacon. RJ is a very big believer in "what goes around, comes around" in his storytelling in Wheel of Time.

And this has what to do with my point?

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 11:04 AM
Gonzo, why would it have been unrealistic for them to have let her keep her clothes. Ok, I could sorta get keeping her unconscious for most of it IF that was some sort of stasis field that was maintaining her, ie keeping her alive. Regardless of that though, in their flight, she could have become conscious and aided to their escape, even with just a sentence or two.

As for the clue as to what she's been going through we know from Setalle Anan what it's like to lose the ability to channel. We know from Siuan & Leane what it's like to have the ability to channel reduced. We know from Birgitte what it's like to be trapped in the Tower with little hope of success or escape. We've been shown what it's been like for her, there's no need for this.

The nakedness though? Why do they have to keep her naked? There's no reason. Don't give me that "because it's more emotional, because given Thom & Jain's history, that's nothing they haven't seen before and well, we all know how many woman Mat's been after. No, I don't buy that what-so-ever. In fact if she'd been clothed & conscious it might have even had more emotional impact that in the state she was in.

Arioch: Hm, yes let's conveniently forget the number of strong independent male characters there are in the series...and then remember how many strong, independent female characters there used to be...and then let's also forget how many of the former are still around (quite a few) and how many of the latter are still around (well, none).

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 11:06 AM
Sorry Jana, but she's actually been greatly weakened from where she was in tFoH. It's possible that BS can salvage Moiraine's character in the last book, but he's really going to have to work at it. She was the strongest character in the series when she disappeared. As of her rescue, she's been seriously weakened and for seemingly no good reason other than the author wanted to do it that way.

For no good reason? You mean to tell me you just want Moiraine to come back exactly the same, having no ill effects from an incredibly harrowing experience? That would be a completely stupid plot line! How could she not be weakened? But wait, you're not saying you wanted her to be physically well. You're saying her character was weakened because some men came to save her naked body and because she said she loved Thom and would sacrifice the OP for him?

I guess I don't see either of those things as a weakening of her character. I'm doing my first reread in a long time, and I'm part-way through TDR right now. If you compare the Moiraine of the first three books to the Moiraine post-ToG, the difference is not a weakening, but a development.

Throughout TDR, she's completely obsessed with her cause, and shows no affection or care for anyone outside of how they can help that cause. She's strong, sure, but also cold and unfeeling. She opens up a small amount later, but it's not really until we see her interacting with Thom post-ToG that we see a broadening of her character. Indeed, I would call it strengthening, because she is now willing to open herself up to something other than the cause.

I said it before, but that particular theme is going to be very important. It's a parallel to Rand: strength is not the same as hardness, and strength does not require suppressing emotions.

I guess that's why people hate Egwene, too. Emotional women are weak, unless they get angry like Nynaeve. :rolleyes:

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 11:13 AM
Arioch: Hm, yes let's conveniently forget the number of strong independent male characters there are in the series...and then remember how many strong, independent female characters there used to be...and then let's also forget how many of the former are still around (quite a few) and how many of the latter are still around (well, none).
I don't know... I always kind of thought Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene have maintained their strength and independence. I heard a rumor that Tuon is fairly strong, too, and not really beholden to anyone. And Tylee the Seanchan. I also don't think we've heard the last of Berelain.

Don't get me wrong--I'll be the first to point out that the most powerful characters in the books are men, both good and evil. And on the Shadow's side, all the powerful women have now become subservient to the powerful men (or Halfmen)...or died. I'd love to see a female Great Captain, or Nynaeve in a leadership role.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 11:20 AM
For no good reason? You mean to tell me you just want Moiraine to come back exactly the same, having no ill effects from an incredibly harrowing experience? That would be a completely stupid plot line! How could she not be weakened? But wait, you're not saying you wanted her to be physically well. You're saying her character was weakened because some men came to save her naked body and because she said she loved Thom and would sacrifice the OP for him?

I guess I don't see either of those things as a weakening of her character. I'm doing my first reread in a long time, and I'm part-way through TDR right now. If you compare the Moiraine of the first three books to the Moiraine post-ToG, the difference is not a weakening, but a development.

Throughout TDR, she's completely obsessed with her cause, and shows no affection or care for anyone outside of how they can help that cause. She's strong, sure, but also cold and unfeeling. She opens up a small amount later, but it's not really until we see her interacting with Thom post-ToG that we see a broadening of her character. Indeed, I would call it strengthening, because she is now willing to open herself up to something other than the cause.

I said it before, but that particular theme is going to be very important. It's a parallel to Rand: strength is not the same as hardness, and strength does not require suppressing emotions.

I guess that's why people hate Egwene, too. Emotional women are weak, unless they get angry like Nynaeve. :rolleyes:

Yeah... SDog, I absolutely DESPISE Egwene. Always have. :rolleyes:

You really weren't listening when I explained what pissed me off.

But clearly, you've decided what I've analyzed is valid because I hate emotional women. Right.

Frenzy
10-19-2011, 11:27 AM
For no good reason? You mean to tell me you just want Moiraine to come back exactly the same, having no ill effects from an incredibly harrowing experience?
No. Well, at least i'm not saying that. There's nothing wrong with her suffering the effects of her incarceration, or even having her OP spigot reduced. That isn't what i object to. It's her complete departure from character, and her complete inability to participate in her rescue other than by sending for Matt. It's her empty gestures of twoo wuv. It's the writer stating that she's stronger and better for being tortured, mindraped, and lessened.

But wait, you're not saying you wanted her to be physically well. You're saying her character was weakened because some men came to save her naked body and because she said she loved Thom and would sacrifice the OP for him? I guess I don't see either of those things as a weakening of her character.
Then we disagree. Fair enough. i'm just annoyed that some can't understand my/our interpretation of events, or dismiss them as invalid.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 11:30 AM
You mean Nynaeve "I can still channel-I can still be me-if I never become Aes Sedai. But I would never be myself again if I abandoned him." That Nynaeve? Let's not even go in to her test where, oddly enough, she was stripped, beaten and subjected to any number of horrible scenarios in an attempt to break her. That's not familiar at all.

You mean Elayne "I'll share my man with two other woman because I've got no other choice?"

You mean Egwene "Oh dear god, don't I have enough to do right now and you want me to plan a wedding as well? Well, I guess I can do that"?

Tuon is suffering from those "I wish Mat was here" problems.

Tylee is another good option and unlike Sulin & Birgitte at least has command. I can conceed that one, although like all the other Seanchan is a little too submissive to the whole Empress thing.

Berelain waged a massive campaign to get Perrin "to make her stronger" even when it was obvious when she lost and has now gone head over heels for Galad.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 11:37 AM
No. Well, at least i'm not saying that. There's nothing wrong with her suffering the effects of her incarceration, or even having her OP spigot reduced. That isn't what i object to. It's her complete departure from character, and her complete inability to participate in her rescue other than by sending for Matt. It's her empty gestures of twoo wuv. It's the writer stating that she's stronger and better for being tortured, mindraped, and lessened.


Exactly.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 11:38 AM
not what I said SDog....actually, Frenzy said it pretty well.

Mainly, it would have been possible her to go through the incarceration, be put through the proverbial wringer, without making her essentially a macguffin to be won. She could have been awake and provided the critical clue to Mat to get him thinking why the *'finns gave him the spear, she could have channeled however weakly (someone else had the angreal) to set off some of those fireworks to gain them a few extra moments. There's a great many things should could have done to aided in the escape, to make it require all of them to escape.

She doesn't need to Moiraine the Grey it, appear out of nowhere stronger and more powerful than ever. She can show the wear and tear of months or years of suffering at the hands of the *'finns, but there could have been a way of doing it that at least let her keep some dignity.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 11:42 AM
I guess it just didn't occur to me at the time that her character was any different. And looking back on it, I still don't think I have enough exposure in those few moments post-ToG to declare that her character was weakened.

Don't get me wrong--I understand how you can see it that way. I just think you're all wrong. :p

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 11:48 AM
I hated it too Gil. If I recall, Frenzy railed about this too. BUT. I think the key here is this:

The *finn feed on human emotions. So they wanted the rescue party to be as emotional as possible, and for that the method chosen was a lot more effective than the proposed "let her seem all right".


The Finns feed on emotion. Moiraine's strength and character have been proven over and over...she also knew she likely would die in her fight with Lanfear. The Finn were likely feeding on her bravery the MINUTE she melted into their realm. And continued to feed on it, possibly to the point of draining her of some of her core strength.

So if I were a Finn, and I sucked all (or most of) the bravery out, what would I turn to next? The highest level of emotions left in the woman, her embarassment and modesty as well as her fear of being perceived as weak. Make her naked and trap her = elicit emotion they need.

She IS different, the Finns action of draining emotion for that long must have an effect.

arioch
10-19-2011, 11:48 AM
You don't want to get into that kind of slapfight with WoT as the source, keeping in mind that Rand and Perrin at least are posterchildren for male characters who can't think straight around women at all.

Main characters of both sexes have that "I've gotta do what I've gotta do" thing going on while their thought processes are always "why is <this person of the opposite sex> got my head all in a tangle". This is absolutely not supposed to reflect poorly on them as far as their gender go.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 11:53 AM
You mean Nynaeve "I can still channel-I can still be me-if I never become Aes Sedai. But I would never be myself again if I abandoned him." That Nynaeve? Let's not even go in to her test where, oddly enough, she was stripped, beaten and subjected to any number of horrible scenarios in an attempt to break her. That's not familiar at all.

Love != weakness. And her character is hardly defined by her marriage to Lan. It's a big part of it, but she's been mostly independent of him for the entire series.


You mean Elayne "I'll share my man with two other woman because I've got no other choice?"

And how has this affected her leadership, her ability to act on her own, etc.? She has shown very little dependence on Rand, often deliberately. Love != weakness.

You mean Egwene "Oh dear god, don't I have enough to do right now and you want me to plan a wedding as well? Well, I guess I can do that"?

I really don't know what this means. Please explain how Egwene is a weak female character.


Tuon is suffering from those "I wish Mat was here" problems.Suffering? Kindly point out where Tuon's character has been weakened by her relationship to Mat.

Tylee is another good option and unlike Sulin & Birgitte at least has command. I can conceed that one, although like all the other Seanchan is a little too submissive to the whole Empress thing.
So you're basically looking for a woman who reports to no one and has no love life?

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 11:55 AM
Yes, of course. And naturally, given a choice between having a more satisfying experience out of it, or letting her retain some dignity, the *finn would have let her keep her clothes on.

Look at the freaking Abu Ghraib pictures!
There it is not the American torturers who are naked. It isn't the innocent prisoners who are allowed to keep their clothes on.
Why do you want to believe that the *finn would be more stupid than those stupid American grunts who got convicted?

I don't think the *finn would have derived any sexual pleasure out of seeing a naked woman. But they sure would have derived pleasure from a prudish Cairhienin's reaction to going without clothes.
I don't think the *finn would have derived any direct pleasure from having Moiraine near comatose. But they sure would've liked the added despair that created in the rescuers, who were still fresh instead of all wrung out.

So doing it this way does make sense from a literary viewpoint. Pretending that the *finn would be just as moral as Hamas when that turned over Shalit makes a lot less sense.

Edited to add:
Why are you lot all barging in like that? This post should've gone after SBX's post #101 in this thread.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Yeah... SDog, I absolutely DESPISE Egwene. Always have. :rolleyes:

You really weren't listening when I explained what pissed me off.

But clearly, you've decided what I've analyzed is valid because I hate emotional women. Right.

I was listening. Ask my wife: I'm a good listener considering I'm a man.

I have no idea how you feel about Egwene--I wasn't really addressing you personally. I do see a distinct argument here that Moiraine's expression of love for Thom means she's now weaker. That's BS.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 11:57 AM
sure, I do. It's been far too long since I've been in a slap fight in the series...although if it's ok with you, I'll do something a little more manly than slap fighting...not entirely my style.

The characters main problems are more of a lack of communication than anything else. If they actually started explain a few things much as Perrin started to do in the last book, everyone would be much better off. As it is, people aren't explaining things and going off and doing stupid things that aren't required. As for having their asses pulled out of the fire, what does that have to really do with anything?

Moiraine went and sacificed herself, to protect Rand from something, at that point, he couldn't bring himself to do. In Moiraine's case is was that she was able to escape, just inable to do it for whatever emotional reason, it's that she was made to be useless, a macguffin that sits on a velvet cushion waiting for the hero to come along, slay the dragon, and put it in a tall tower and for people to come along and exclaim over it's beauty.

That's not what Moiraine is. She's intelligent and capable and while put in to a situation she couldn't escape from, should have at least been in a position to offer advice and guidance, since, you know, from a literary point of view she's the wise advisor character in the series. Instead she's naked and unconscious and just a prize.

Rarely have any of the male characters been put in that situation and the few times was a) Rand in Toman's Head where Min saves him, not exactly the same & b) Rand in LoC in which he starts beaten, but not naked, and stills three sisters, something no woman could achieve unaided, by reflex & anger.

So, yeah, not comparible at all. Slap away if you like.

Frenzy
10-19-2011, 12:01 PM
gonzo, would it surprise you that i don't particularly care that Moiraine was naked? i know others do, and i see their pov, but to me Moiraine's lack of clothing isn't the linchpin to my objections to the 3 chapters in question.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 12:03 PM
ah, ok, I misread what you're saying. I thought you were implying that they'd feed of Mat & co because of her nakedness. Ok, I could sorta understand that point...don't agree that it needed to be done, but I can understand where her emotions might have been more...poignant because of it. Didn't entirely need to be done for literary reasons though.

Does she still need to be unconsciousness though? Got anything for that?

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 12:04 PM
...put it in a tall tower and for people to come along and exclaim over it's beauty.
Wait, when did this happen? I thought we weren't talking about the next book, yet.


That's not what Moiraine is. She's intelligent and capable and while put in to a situation she couldn't escape from, should have at least been in a position to offer advice and guidance, since, you know, from a literary point of view she's the wise advisor character in the series. Instead she's naked and unconscious and just a prize.And maybe, just maybe, her time as an advisor is over. Maybe her character has moved beyond that, since all the other characters have had months to outgrow her attention. Especially if there was essentially nothing she could offer that would sound realistic.

Rarely have any of the male characters been put in that situation and the few times was a) Rand in Toman's Head where Min saves him, not exactly the same & b) Rand in LoC in which he starts beaten, but not naked, and stills three sisters, something no woman could achieve unaided, by reflex & anger.

Well, Mat would have died if not for a whole bunch of women. And all because he was a greedy sot who wouldn't listen to Moiraine in the first place. Sure, he wasn't in a box, but he certainly needed to be rescued.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Well, there was the time that Rand was stuffed into a lightless cell in Far Madding too. I do not quite see how he could have gotten himself out of there, though I suppose that if 100,000 Aiel had started attacking the city, the council would've considered some sort of negotiations.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:14 PM
I was listening. Ask my wife: I'm a good listener considering I'm a man.

I have no idea how you feel about Egwene--I wasn't really addressing you personally. I do see a distinct argument here that Moiraine's expression of love for Thom means she's now weaker. That's BS.

No. Her offer to throw away the last remaining power she HAS for Twoo Wuv is what pissed me off, SDog. Her love for Thom was presented in a way so that it appeared to be weakening force for her, on top of the *finns torture.

And even if it was a "test" question, a) she certainly sounded serious, b) that relegates it to, "Do these jeans make my ass look fat?"

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:19 PM
I hated it too Gil. If I recall, Frenzy railed about this too. BUT. I think the key here is this:




The Finns feed on emotion. Moiraine's strength and character have been proven over and over...she also knew she likely would die in her fight with Lanfear. The Finn were likely feeding on her bravery the MINUTE she melted into their realm. And continued to feed on it, possibly to the point of draining her of some of her core strength.

So if I were a Finn, and I sucked all (or most of) the bravery out, what would I turn to next? The highest level of emotions left in the woman, her embarassment and modesty as well as her fear of being perceived as weak. Make her naked and trap her = elicit emotion they need.

She IS different, the Finns action of draining emotion for that long must have an effect.

Uh, there's no evidence that their feeding is permanent (and she still might regain her saidar link -- doesn't excuse the fact that she was literally stripped of everything she was -- just so she could be rescued -- which, by the way, completely defeats her Merlin-ish symbolism -- he was never rescued. And sorry for the run-on parenthetical). Unless they take a body part from you. They fed off the pain of Mat losing his eye and wow... he's still hurting, isn't he?

She still has her bravery, etc. My point was that even if the nudity was to torture her, there were other ways to go about it, and she still could have been conscious.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Wait, when did this happen? I thought we weren't talking about the next book, yet.

And maybe, just maybe, her time as an advisor is over. Maybe her character has moved beyond that, since all the other characters have had months to outgrow her attention. Especially if there was essentially nothing she could offer that would sound realistic.


Well, Mat would have died if not for a whole bunch of women. And all because he was a greedy sot who wouldn't listen to Moiraine in the first place. Sure, he wasn't in a box, but he certainly needed to be rescued.

First, I was more refering that Moiraine was treated more as a inanimate object in her rescue as opposed to say, a character.

Second, no, she still has information that is critical to Rand's success. Her time as a guide and an advisor isn't done yet.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure which incident you're refering to with Mat. Care to be more specific?

Gonzo: whan Rand was released from that cell though, he was still able to operate. He was still a character capable of thinking, feeling and operating. They didn't need to haul him out of there over someone's shoulder wrapped in a cloak. There's a difference.

arioch
10-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Except you don't know if she needs her strength in saidar for what she has remaining to accomplish. She probably does (know, not need).

If she is to be one of the two controlling Rand on Callandor, I don't think it's her strength that's going to make the difference.

That makes her a stronger character, not weaker.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
No. Her offer to throw away the last remaining power she HAS for Twoo Wuv is what pissed me off, SDog. Her love for Thom was presented in a way so that it appeared to be weakening force for her, on top of the *finns torture.

And even if it was a "test" question, a) she certainly sounded serious, b) that relegates it to, "Do these jeans make my ass look fat?"

I guess I see what you're saying, but like I mentioned I never thought of it that way. I don't think it was a "test"....god I hope not. That would be a weakening, and in a really bad way.

I saw it as an expression of love that she hadn't been able to make before. It's partly why Mat was so surprised, too. Basically, yes, she was willing to throw the cause aside for Thom, which is a huge leap in her character development. I don't consider it a weakening.

Weiramon
10-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Burn my soul this is much ado about nothing. When the loyal Lord Mazrim Taim rescued the Lord Dragon at Dumai's Well, the Lord Dragon was naked and unconscious and unable to carry out his duties for several days. It's not like he just exploded out of a box, crippled the Aes Sedai who had shielded him, and took command to bring his allies under protection. No, it was left to Lord Taim to deal with everything, including the bodies littering the field of battle, as well as all the Aes Sedai, who had betrayed the Lord Dragon. The stories are that the Lord Dragon was later carried into Cairhien unconscious in a wagon, wrapped in the arms of some tavern maid. No doubt immediately upon waking he offered to give up uniting the nations for the Last Battle and marry this scullery maid instead, but she declined. Why, the future would have teetered on the edge of a blade.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:24 PM
Yes, of course. And naturally, given a choice between having a more satisfying experience out of it, or letting her retain some dignity, the *finn would have let her keep her clothes on.

Look at the freaking Abu Ghraib pictures!
There it is not the American torturers who are naked. It isn't the innocent prisoners who are allowed to keep their clothes on.
Why do you want to believe that the *finn would be more stupid than those stupid American grunts who got convicted?

I don't think the *finn would have derived any sexual pleasure out of seeing a naked woman. But they sure would have derived pleasure from a prudish Cairhienin's reaction to going without clothes.
I don't think the *finn would have derived any direct pleasure from having Moiraine near comatose. But they sure would've liked the added despair that created in the rescuers, who were still fresh instead of all wrung out.

So doing it this way does make sense from a literary viewpoint. Pretending that the *finn would be just as moral as Hamas when that turned over Shalit makes a lot less sense.

Edited to add:
Why are you lot all barging in like that? This post should've gone after SBX's post #101 in this thread.

They can go ahead and feed off her embarrassment. You do realize that eventually, even a prudish Cairheinin isn't going to give a shit any more? Unless they turned the thermostat down and fed off her approaching hypothermia?

So, again, what was the literary point in the imagery of one of the strongest women in the series locked up naked and unconscious in a phallic symbol, waiting for men to rescue her?

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 12:25 PM
First, I was more refering that Moiraine was treated more as a inanimate object in her rescue as opposed to say, a character.
Fair enough.


Second, no, she still has information that is critical to Rand's success. Her time as a guide and an advisor isn't done yet.Information sharing isn't guiding. I guess she can be an advisor, but she no longer needs to play the Gandalf role.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure which incident you're refering to with Mat. Care to be more specific?Mat was dragged unconscious back from Toman Head by a group of women (sorry but Hurin didn't play a big part there). Then he was Healed and cared for by an even bigger group of women. He certainly would have died if not for the women that saved him. He played no part in his own rescue, though in fairness he was wearing clothes during the Healing. He got naked later, though.

arioch
10-19-2011, 12:26 PM
What I'd like to reiterate here is that strength as a character has not very much to do with how much of an archetypical male view they have of themselves as self-sufficient self-actualizing ubermensch.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Cyndane says that her link probably isn't going to recover unfortunately. That said, she probably won't be lacking for power in what she needs to do in the Last Battle if I'm right.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:28 PM
I guess I see what you're saying, but like I mentioned I never thought of it that way. I don't think it was a "test"....god I hope not. That would be a weakening, and in a really bad way.

I saw it as an expression of love that she hadn't been able to make before. It's partly why Mat was so surprised, too. Basically, yes, she was willing to throw the cause aside for Thom, which is a huge leap in her character development. I don't consider it a weakening.

She's a Blue, SDog. Which means her cause is herself. She just offered to give UP herself for her man.

Without getting personal, you realize that's what women have historically been required to do, right? Yeah, there are outliers and whatever, but really. It's not character growth. And no, I didn't find her incapable of love before. Driven, yes. Cold? No. I saw her as selfless. Self-sacrificing. And the last bit of self she has she throws it at Thom's feet?

Uh... no thank you.

arioch
10-19-2011, 12:31 PM
There's nothing in Ch57 A Rabbit for Supper that's anything like Moiraine saying she'd give up her cause for Thom.

Before we go too far down that particular rabbithole (too late, in this thread) I just thought we should make that clear.

In fact, the very act and move to bind a Warder in Randland's current socio-political climate has the implication that Thom will be joining Moiraine's cause.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Mat was dragged unconscious back from Toman Head by a group of women (sorry but Hurin didn't play a big part there). Then he was Healed and cared for by an even bigger group of women. He certainly would have died if not for the women that saved him. He played no part in his own rescue, though in fairness he was wearing clothes during the Healing. He got naked later, though.

Mat was not a grown up at that point. He wasn't a fully capable adult with a list of travels and accomplishments as long as his arm. He just wasn't. And he wasn't in that position because of a massive sacrificial move to take out a Forsaken. No, he was in that position because since he was a foolish boy, he went and stole something shiny he shouldn't have.

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 12:44 PM
Lol this thread is hilarious. Of all the things in ToM, I would have never guessed people would have issue with this.

You know what else I'm thinking...again? This is one more time where 1 or more female members of Theoryland have taken offense about something in the books where they feel a woman was degraded. More and more, I'm coming to realize just how many females on this board are man-hatey. Or I guess at the very least sensitive about anything they perceive goes against a fellow woman.

I find it funny. :)

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 12:47 PM
Lol this thread is hilarious. Of all the things in ToM, I would have never guessed people would have issue with this.

You know what else I'm thinking...again? This is one more time where 1 or more female members of Theoryland have taken offense about something in the books where they feel a woman was degraded. More and more, I'm coming to realize just how many females on this board are man-hatey. Or I guess at the very least sensitive about anything they perceive goes against a fellow woman.

I find it funny. :)

Wow. That is so insulting I cannot even respond right now.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 12:53 PM
Wow. That is so insulting I cannot even respond right now.

Don't bother.

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Mat was dragged unconscious back from Toman Head by a group of women (sorry but Hurin didn't play a big part there). Then he was Healed and cared for by an even bigger group of women. He certainly would have died if not for the women that saved him. He played no part in his own rescue, though in fairness he was wearing clothes during the Healing. He got naked later, though.

To be fair, Mat became unconscious after they had been on the road for awhile, on their way back to Tar Valon. Or at least he was conscious for the time it would take him to "gamble with Hurin for coppers everday." TDR may say more specifically, during the chapter when the girls are talking on their way back. For some reason I seem to recall someone's pov mentioning that he had been unconscious for the last few or several days, which would mean he basically made it 90%+ of the way to Tar Valon while conscious.

I also don't see Mat's "rescue" as anything similar to the multitude of rescues the women have underwent. He was a fool in Shadar Logoth when he picked up the dagger. Yet he wasn't just sitting in a dungeon helpless, clothed or not. He more or less traveled around the world while he was infected. Even leaving TEotW aside, he journeyed with the Shienarans to find the Horn and dagger, went to Toman Head, blew the Horn, and helped the Heroes of the Horn drive the Seanchan back into the sea. Then when it was over, he had to go back to Tar Valon with Verin, Hurin, and the girls so he could be Healed. Somewhere along the way (I'm guessing maybe halfway to Tar Valon at least), he finally fell unconscious. Then was later Healed by a circle of sisters, while shouting at them that he was no Aes Sedai meat in the Old Tongue. Not long after that, he escaped Tar Valon with Thom.

Mat deserves plenty of criticism for being stupid enough to pick up the dagger in the first place (even though that was apparently his destiny), but I don't see his "rescue" as a rescue in the normal sense, at least comparable to what we're used to in WoT. If you want to consider it a rescue, then you might as well include everyone else that has ever been Healed from severe injuries.

Frenzy
10-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Wait, TtD is a dude? whoa, that's like totally pertinent to the current topic. Much more pertinent than people calling shenanigans on gender-based denigration. Which, btw, isn't the point of this thread. But we already covered the need to repeat ourselves for those slow on the uptake and lacking on the upkeep...

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 01:08 PM
She's a Blue, SDog. Which means her cause is herself. She just offered to give UP herself for her man.

Without getting personal, you realize that's what women have historically been required to do, right? Yeah, there are outliers and whatever, but really. It's not character growth. And no, I didn't find her incapable of love before. Driven, yes. Cold? No. I saw her as selfless. Self-sacrificing. And the last bit of self she has she throws it at Thom's feet?

Uh... no thank you.
We see it differently, then. Being Blue only makes her one-dimensional. Being a Blue in love adds more dimension.

I do understand the historical requirement, but in this case it's genuine and not forced. Maybe I give too much credit to the author on that front.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 01:10 PM
Lol this thread is hilarious. Of all the things in ToM, I would have never guessed people would have issue with this.

You know what else I'm thinking...again? This is one more time where 1 or more female members of Theoryland have taken offense about something in the books where they feel a woman was degraded. More and more, I'm coming to realize just how many females on this board are man-hatey. Or I guess at the very least sensitive about anything they perceive goes against a fellow woman.

I find it funny. :)Wow. You're not very observant, are you?

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 01:12 PM
I merely cited it as a counterpoint that male characters never require rescue. Call it rescue or not, I don't really care.

I wasn't really trying to argue anything, just highlighting a point in the books where Mat's very life depended on help from women. It's a juxtaposition, if nothing else.

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 01:17 PM
Wow. You're not very observant, are you?

I guess that depends on the day. For the comment I made, I was talking about the OP. She's a woman right?

I merely cited it as a counterpoint that male characters never require rescue. Call it rescue or not, I don't really care.

I wasn't really trying to argue anything, just highlighting a point in the books where Mat's very life depended on help from women. It's a juxtaposition, if nothing else.

Yeah I know. I was simply giving out my thoughts and remembrance on the matter.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 01:18 PM
There's nothing in Ch57 A Rabbit for Supper that's anything like Moiraine saying she'd give up her cause for Thom.

Before we go too far down that particular rabbithole (too late, in this thread) I just thought we should make that clear.

In fact, the very act and move to bind a Warder in Randland's current socio-political climate has the implication that Thom will be joining Moiraine's cause.

I believe the passage at issue is this:

"Dearest, Thom," she said. "I would have you for a husband if you would have me for a wife."

.... (Skipping Mat's shocked response)

"Hush, Mat," Thom said. He did not take Moiraine's offered hand. "You know I've never much liked women who channel the One Power, Moiraine. You know it held me back in the past."

"I don't have much of the Power now, Dearest Thom. Without this angreal, I wouldn't be strong enough to be raised Accepted in the White Tower. I will throw it away if you wish it of me." She lifted her other hand, barely staying modest. She pulled off the angreal.

"I don't think so, Moiraine," Thom said, kneeling down, taking her hands. "No, I won't rob you of anything."

"But with it, I'll be very strong, stronger in the power than when I was taken."

"So be it." (Thanks to Seeker for finding it for me.)

I've bolded the parts that bother me. Now, when I analyze this passage there's an order that leaps out: He tells her he's never liked women who can channel and it's held him back in the past.

This is essentially an admission of the fact that her Aes Sedai-ness, her power, her ability, is what kept him away from her in the past (not the fact that she was a cold-hearted, driven, manipulative harpy in a pretty package -- just the whole channeling thing). That while she was strong and fully capable, he couldn't deal.

But it's OK now that she's naked and wrapped in his cloak.

Moiraine admits to being weakened. (OK, fine. Anyone would be after that ordeal. Not my issue.) She then tells him that the angreal is the only thing giving her power. OK, fine, she has other strengths -- a lot of them her strength of will and her intelligence. And then offers to throw it away, something she bargained for from her torturers, to make herself more acceptable to him. Her offer to throw the angreal away comes on the heels of a mention of the White Tower. White tower = Aes Sedai. And we know how the Aes Sedai feel about strength in the Power. While she sacrificed her power to save Rand, she's offering to give up the rest for Thom. With the angreal, which, since only Thom and Mat know about it won't be taken from her, she can retain the illusion of strength which would keep her position among the Aes Sedai secure (After all, Cadsuane's got one and no one's taking it away from her). In throwing it away, for Thom, she is in effect, offering to give up her place in the White Tower since she's no longer, "strong enough to be raised Accepted." (WE know that's not the case any more because of Egwene. SHE does not. So she is here, offering to give up her life, her cause, so that Thom will accept her.)

When she moves to take off the angreal, Thom stops her on his knees. Probably because she's sitting on the ground, but it's the only remotely equalizing thing he's done so far. He then tells her that he won't "rob her of anything." This gesture, when she's already relinquished her power, then gives the power back to her from his own hands.

Now, it can be argued that this is an example of two people giving each other strength in a difficult time. But given that one was just rescued, naked and helpless, by the other, clearly there's a weaker party here.

The worst part is that this passage comes across as Thom giving Moiraine permission to continue to channel. She reminds him, that with the angreal, she'll be stronger than before. His response isn't "So what?" "Who cares?" "Good, you can save my ass next time." It's "So be it." As if her channeling is his cross to bear.

arioch
10-19-2011, 01:20 PM
To be quite honest, that's you conflating strength in the Power with personal strength, neither of which has anything to do with their strength as their character.

Counter-example: Sorilea.

And I notice you didn't address my last line in the post.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 01:20 PM
Wow. You're not very observant, are you?

Don't worry, SDog. This is yet another place where Toss The Dice has decided he knows me well enough to make judgements on me.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 01:21 PM
Did he just call me a woman? Am I woman? Does my mom know?! Man, this is gonna be awkward...

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 01:21 PM
To be quite honest, that's you conflating strength in the Power with strength as a character.

Counter-example: Sorilea.


And who is this addressed to?

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 01:33 PM
The worst part is that this passage comes across as Thom giving Moiraine permission to continue to channel. She reminds him, that with the angreal, she'll be stronger than before. His response isn't "So what?" "Who cares?" "Good, you can save my ass next time." It's "So be it." As if her channeling is his cross to bear.

Thom never gave Moiraine permission to continue to channel, and even if he theoretically did, she still would. He did say it was alright with him (preferable even) if she kept the angreal that would make her even stronger in the Power than she used to be naturally.

And your part about Thom deciding to be with her when she is in a weakened state is grossly wrong. You do remember that Thom has been doing nothing but obsessing over Moiraine's letter and the woman herself for months now right? The fact that she is weakened and "helpless" by your opinion means absolutely nothing to Thom in his desire to marry her. He truly loves her and didn't like seeing her like that for the expected reasons, because of her former torture and the fact that she was cold and had no tea.

Moiraine being Aes Sedai (meaning she could channel) is what held Thom back in the past, but he has had a long time to think about the woman he has had affection for, has had plenty of time to obsess and ruminate her due to her letter. He ALSO has seen a lot and had a lot of dealings with Aes Sedai since early on in the books. He doesn't specifically LIKE the fact that his wife will be able to channel, but it certainly isn't a deal-breaker like it used to be. He loves her, has loved her for awhile, and he wants her to be happy. Giving her his "blessing" with the angreal was a way to show that even regarding his (lessened yet existing) feelings about channeling, it's not very important to him next to Moiraine herself.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:38 PM
Lol this thread is hilarious. Of all the things in ToM, I would have never guessed people would have issue with this.

You know what else I'm thinking...again? This is one more time where 1 or more female members of Theoryland have taken offense about something in the books where they feel a woman was degraded. More and more, I'm coming to realize just how many females on this board are man-hatey. Or I guess at the very least sensitive about anything they perceive goes against a fellow woman.

I find it funny. :)


SBX and I are females? Good to know.

Its BS because one of the best characters, if not the very best character in the book is destroyed as a result of this scene.

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
SBX and I are females? Good to know.

Are you or SBX the OP? Or was it the "1 or more" that confused you? Just a FYI, "1 or more" CAN mean 1. Or more. I made the comment in regards to the OP though, who I assume is 1 person. Maybe she's a siamese twin.

Brita
10-19-2011, 01:47 PM
And your part about Thom deciding to be with her when she is in a weakened state is grossly wrong. You do remember that Thom has been doing nothing but obsessing over Moiraine's letter and the woman herself for months now right? The fact that she is weakened and "helpless" by your opinion means absolutely nothing to Thom in his desire to marry her. He truly loves her and didn't like seeing her like that for the expected reasons, because of her former torture and the fact that she was cold and had no tea.

Moiraine being Aes Sedai (meaning she could channel) is what held Thom back in the past, but he has had a long time to think about the woman he has had affection for, has had plenty of time to obsess and ruminate her due to her letter. He ALSO has seen a lot and had a lot of dealings with Aes Sedai since early on in the books. He doesn't specifically LIKE the fact that his wife will be able to channel, but it certainly isn't a deal-breaker like it used to be. He loves her, has loved her for awhile, and he wants her to be happy. Giving her his "blessing" with the angreal was a way to show that even regarding his (lessened yet existing) feelings about channeling, it's not very important to him next to Moiraine herself.

It just doesn't read like that, and now that we have the quote, it really doesn't read like that. I think the whole rescue/love admission was rushed, under-written and incredibly disappointing. You can spin it however you like, read all sorts of equalizing factors and caveats to make it more palatable, but the scene is what it is- disappointing. And it is even worse when it had the potential to be one of the best scenes in the series.

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 01:50 PM
It just doesn't read like that, and now that we have the quote, it really doesn't read like that. I think the whole rescue/love admission was rushed, under-written and incredibly disappointing. You can spin it however you like, read all sorts of equalizing factors and caveats to make it more palatable, but the scene is what it is- disappointing. And it is even worse when it had the potential to be one of the best scenes in the series.

I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps part of the problem is that I am seeing the text as how it is intended. I agree that the scene was disappointing and under-written.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:51 PM
I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps part of the problem is that I am seeing the text as how it is intended. I agree that the scene was disappointing and under-written.

How do you know what RJ/BS intended with that scene?

Besides which, if a substantial portion of the readership interpret it differently, wouldn't that suggest some level of failure on the part of the author?

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 01:57 PM
How do you know what RJ/BS intended with that scene?

Of course, my opinion (as well as everyone else's) of how RJ/BS intended that scene would be based on my perspective or whoever in question's perspective. Seeing as how this question you posed partially falls under the "I think therefore I am" angle of the world, it's pretty much invalid by default. If you want me to explain further, I can.

Besides which, if a substantial portion of the readership interpret it differently, wouldn't that suggest some level of failure on the part of the author?

I suppose that would depend on the book or series in question. But for this, I agree that it would be a failure on the part of the author on some level.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 02:14 PM
It just doesn't read like that, and now that we have the quote, it really doesn't read like that. I think the whole rescue/love admission was rushed, under-written and incredibly disappointing. You can spin it however you like, read all sorts of equalizing factors and caveats to make it more palatable, but the scene is what it is- disappointing. And it is even worse when it had the potential to be one of the best scenes in the series.

I also agree that it was rushed and disappointing, but I guess I was disappointed for different reasons. :/

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 02:24 PM
I guess that depends on the day. For the comment I made, I was talking about the OP. She's a woman right?
Not my point. I'm talking about your sweeping generalizations about how all these "female members" feel and react. If you are ever bothered to read posts from women around here, you'd know how ignorant you sound.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:25 PM
I also agree that it was rushed and disappointing, but I guess I was disappointed for different reasons. :/

When I got to page 750* of an 800* page book and the Tower Rescue hadn't occurred, I knew I would be disappointed in it. I know that RJ wrote 90% of these pages (from the interviews during the book tour this was confirmed) but ToM still read very much like a typical B. Sanderson novel with several hundred pages of setup followed by a "tempest" of action over the final 100 pages.


*all page numbers are estimates used for illustrative purposes as I dont have the book in front of me

arioch
10-19-2011, 02:41 PM
When I got to page 750* of an 800* page book and the Tower Rescue hadn't occurred, I knew I would be disappointed in it. I know that RJ wrote 90% of these pages (from the interviews during the book tour this was confirmed) but ToM still read very much like a typical B. Sanderson novel with several hundred pages of setup followed by a "tempest" of action over the final 100 pages.


*all page numbers are estimates used for illustrative purposes as I dont have the book in front of me

More numbers I'm going to pull out of my ass:

Number of pages in LoC: 720
Number of chapters in LoC: 55

Number of pages in Dumai's Wells chapter: NOT ALL THAT MANY

Toss the dice
10-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Not my point. I'm talking about your sweeping generalizations about how all these "female members" feel and react. If you are ever bothered to read posts from women around here, you'd know how ignorant you sound.

I've read quite a few posts and quite a few threads on here. And I don't remember making any sort of "sweeping generalizations." Something about 1 more time...implying that it tends to happen here from time to time, further implying it happens much more here that my experience anywhere else. (for example real life)

Think percentage-wise, rather than sweeping generalizations or straight numbers. For example, it happens from time to time in real life, but that is out of a pool of literally thousands of people I interact with every X amount of time. Here, the pool is much, much less. So when it pops up like it does on here, it tends to be noticeable.

I find it ironic how pretty much the sole reason for your post was to accuse me of generalizing, where in reality you are generalizing the things I say and mean quite literally. Another might call it putting words in my mouth, but I like generalizing better for irony's sake. People tend to do that when they're hunting for something to criticize someone for, because they dislike them for another reason or another incident. I suppose I find that funny too. :)

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:50 PM
More numbers I'm going to pull out of my ass:

Number of pages in LoC: 720
Number of chapters in LoC: 55

Number of pages in Dumai's Wells chapter: NOT ALL THAT MANY

And yet Dumai's Wells was one of the best if not the best scene in all the books while the Tower rescue fell somewhat flat. That's basically the gist of the discussion. Dumai's Wells was short but it didnt feel rushed...the rescue did for some reason.

Edit: Also, the leadoff to that final confrontation at Dumai's Wells was far longer than the entire Tower rescue...which is a better comparison of story arcs. You need to start at Rand's kidnapping in Cairhien for a fair comparison and start with Mat, Thom and Jain leaving Camelyn for Ghenjei.

Crispin's Crispian
10-19-2011, 03:08 PM
I find it ironic how pretty much the sole reason for your post was to accuse me of generalizing, where in reality you are generalizing the things I say and mean quite literally. Another might call it putting words in my mouth, but I like generalizing better for irony's sake.


Let's look at what you said, then.


Lol this thread is hilarious. Of all the things in ToM, I would have never guessed people would have issue with this.

You know what else I'm thinking...again? This is one more time where 1 or more female members of Theoryland have taken offense about something in the books where they feel a woman was degraded. More and more, I'm coming to realize just how many females on this board are man-hatey. Or I guess at the very least sensitive about anything they perceive goes against a fellow woman.

I find it funny.
You're generalizing in the sense that you're making a theme out of your anecdotes. My point was to criticize that act, because IMO the truth bears out a different story. I'm pretty sensitive to over-sensitivity (sounds ironic; isn't) and I'd be the first one to agree that some here are over-sensitive about some things. But what you're claiming just isn't true.

Moreover, while you may never say the words, "all these women" or "most women," the implication is pretty clear. You think there is a problem with just how many women are "man-hatey" or overly sensitive. When you make it a problem, you're generalizing it.


Think percentage-wise, rather than sweeping generalizations or straight numbers. For example, it happens from time to time in real life, but that is out of a pool of literally thousands of people I interact with every X amount of time. Here, the pool is much, much less. So when it pops up like it does on here, it tends to be noticeable.
I guess I disagree. People get pissed at the veiled misogyny of Egwene-, Faile-, and Sarah Palin-hating. People get pissed at sexist jokes (sometimes). I don't see anyone getting overly pissed at things they should be pissed about. Not very often, anyway.


People tend to do that when they're hunting for something to criticize someone for, because they dislike them for another reason or another incident. I suppose I find that funny too. :)Cute smiley. I don't even know you, so I really haven't a reason to dislike you. Condescending comments (with or without smilies) don't really help, though.

And for the most part I've agreed with what you've posted in this thread (and don't remember any others), so you're 0/2 here.

Maybe you have one of those persecution complexes I find more common on the Internetz. But I wouldn't know, yet. :)

arioch
10-19-2011, 03:48 PM
And yet Dumai's Wells was one of the best if not the best scene in all the books while the Tower rescue fell somewhat flat. That's basically the gist of the discussion. Dumai's Wells was short but it didnt feel rushed...the rescue did for some reason.

Edit: Also, the leadoff to that final confrontation at Dumai's Wells was far longer than the entire Tower rescue...which is a better comparison of story arcs. You need to start at Rand's kidnapping in Cairhien for a fair comparison and start with Mat, Thom and Jain leaving Camelyn for Ghenjei.

If anything, Moiraine's rescue buildup was done over the course of 8 books.

The real problem with the rescue is that we are not given the typical amount of insight into the 'finns as we do with the human characters, such that when Mat "has to" give up his eye for Moiraine, it falls fairly flat. Ok, so he has to give up his eye ... because the author said so?

In contrast, when Rand loses his hand, it's because he instinctively tries to save Min from Semirhage and couldn't fumble up a shield in time. Very human response, Semirhage's panicked snap shot is understandable, etc.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 04:56 PM
If anything, Moiraine's rescue buildup was done over the course of 8 books.

The real problem with the rescue is that we are not given the typical amount of insight into the 'finns as we do with the human characters, such that when Mat "has to" give up his eye for Moiraine, it falls fairly flat. Ok, so he has to give up his eye ... because the author said so?

In contrast, when Rand loses his hand, it's because he instinctively tries to save Min from Semirhage and couldn't fumble up a shield in time. Very human response, Semirhage's panicked snap shot is understandable, etc.

I almost wonder if what Mat gave up to the finns wasn't so much his actual eye but the pain involved in the process of losing it as they feed on the emotional impact of the event.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 05:00 PM
I hate posting from my phone here. Author's intent matters very little in a created work IF IT DIDN'T GET CONVEYED PROPERLY.

(pretend that last was in italics, please, since I can't figure out the damned HTML this way.)

Cloudrunner
10-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Okay I have been a Theoryland member for a long time but I don't post very often. :cool: I read posts almost everyday and this one I feel needs a response.
The very idea that a strong female character is diminished by being helpless after a ludicrously long period of torture and in need of rescue is patently absurd. It is realistic. The "I don't need no help from no damned man" crap needs to go away.:eek:
The point is that we are all human and sometimes we need help. Look at the near disaster Rand got himself into by shutting himself away and thinking he had to bear it all on his own?
From the very beginning WOT has been about turning "traditional" gender roles on their head. The world we were introduced to is a Matriarchal society. Women hold the greatest power - saidar. And part of the ongoing narrative is how screwed up things become when one gender dominates. The AOL utopia is egalitarian. RJ keeps bringing up the concept that the greatest works were done by men and women together.:D
RJ didn't tear down Moiraine - he deepened the character. A truly strong person is strong enough to admit when they need help. Moiraine sacrificed pride for victory. She saw the potential futures and swallowed her pride and did what had to be done. How many characters in this series have done that? They all scream about doing what has to be done but they aren't asked to sacrifice their pride in doing it. Morgase steps down in self pity... deeming herself unworthy. Moiraine knows she is going to have to be rescued<and it appalls her>but she knows that it is necessary to win... actually to have any hope of winning. That is a Heroine.
Maybe a rethinking of what a strong character really is may be in order.

Green Man 22
10-19-2011, 05:55 PM
I don't post that often but I really enjoy reading everyone's comments. I am a guy, so I guess maybe I am not looking at the events of the rescue from the same perspective.

My take from the comments in Moiraine's letter was that Moiraine would never know if she would be rescued unless they successfully got her out. She saw a bunch of different ways things could go if they tried, but she had no way to know if the attempt would ever be made. Maybe her not knowing what would happen was part of the torture, and the Finns had power to keep her unconscious in their realm.

I was fine with her being unconscious and not really involved in the rescue, although it would have been cool if she was awake and tossing fireballs (fire to blind). I thought the point was more about Mat sacrificing his eye to save the world (rescue Moiraine), and Jain sacrificing his life for the rest of them to escape. That said, the rescue was too late in the book and the sequence of events seemed much too short, which could also explain her lack of involvement in the escape.

As to her comments after they escaped the Tower, you can look at it a couple of different ways.

1. You can be offended and see it as an issue with her character changing (weakening).

2. You could interpret what she says as confirming that whatever she needs to do to help Rand win, it doesn't have to do with the power. As has been mentioned several times, she is devoted to the cause, and there is no way she would willingly give up the power if she needed it to help Rand. Remember, the limited time out of ToG hasn't given her much time to reveal much about her captivity or her wishes, so this could be forthcoming.

And yes, the Moiraine-Thom interaction was too mushy-gushy (poorly written in my opinion). Maybe it is due to side effects of the sleep-drug type power of the Finns? In other words, maybe she will snap out of it with a little more time to recover.

If Moiraine is still able to make a significant contribution, even without the power, I actually admire her more. She has been more defined by her leadership ability than her actual ability in the OP. I guess I don't see the leadership part going away once she has a little time to recover.

arioch
10-19-2011, 06:00 PM
sacrificed pride for victory


The setup of the Accepted test as it is is no accident.


"You are washed clean of false pride. You are washed clean of false ambition. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul." As the Red Aes Sedai stepped back, Sheriam came to take Nynaeve's arm.


Aes Sedai in general seem to have forgotten this lesson. Nynaeve, Moiraine, Egwene, etc. will teach it back to them.


She has been more defined by her leadership ability than her actual ability in the OP.


Exactly.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Cloudrunner, please reread the OP, and you might find out that that a good deal of this debate is about the literary criticisms for what happened, not how 'realistic' it might be.

Further, we're not saying that she needed to jump up, kick everyone in the balls, pull her braid and hell "damned men! I've been waiting here for years and now you finally get around to rescuing me! Took you long enough! RAAAAR! GRRRLPOWRRRR!" What we're saying is that she should have at least been able to contribute to her own escape, rather than just being an inanimate lump that had to be swaddled up and cradled in someone's arms out of the Tower.

Help: "to give or provide what is necessary to accomplish a task or satisfy a need; contribute strength or means to; render assistance to; cooperate effectively with; aid; assist"

Notice what it says in there? It doesn't say anything about asking someone to do it entirely for them. For them to have "helped" Moiraine out of there she would have needed to play some part in it. Instead she was unconscious the entire time so they literally did everything for her.

So yes, in this case, she should have been a character that needed help to escape, not a character that needed to be rescued. What we got was the latter, what was needed was the former.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 06:05 PM
Hold me Dav! This might be a really strange turn of events, but we can make it through if we're togeth...wait. (Rereads thread) Actually, according to the series we need men to help us get through this.

Damn, never mind. :(

Weiramon
10-19-2011, 06:46 PM
RJ didn't tear down Moiraine - he deepened the character. A truly strong person is strong enough to admit when they need help. Moiraine sacrificed pride for victory. She saw the potential futures and swallowed her pride and did what had to be done. How many characters in this series have done that? They all scream about doing what has to be done but they aren't asked to sacrifice their pride in doing it. Morgase steps down in self pity... deeming herself unworthy. Moiraine knows she is going to have to be rescued<and it appalls her>but she knows that it is necessary to win... actually to have any hope of winning. That is a Heroine.
Maybe a rethinking of what a strong character really is may be in order.

Burn my eyes, that's how I see it as well.

Prior to her ordeal with these Finns fellows, the Lady Moiraine Damodred was a weak-bottomed character, easily diverted from any cause-de-jour she happened to be gallavanting after. Why, even a chance meeting with the Lord Dragon and the looming Last Battle were but a whimsy for her, to be abandoned to look at musty old books in a flyspeck village.

Now that she has been freed from this Tower, we can see how her rape has made her stronger, focusing her on what is truly important - giving up mere trinkets, abandoning her previous wayward course, all to ensure that her man is not intimidated by challenges to his prejudices.

Would that more young, pretty women find such strength for older men with thinning and greying hair.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 06:52 PM
Okay I have been a Theoryland member for a long time but I don't post very often. :cool: I read posts almost everyday and this one I feel needs a response.
The very idea that a strong female character is diminished by being helpless after a ludicrously long period of torture and in need of rescue is patently absurd. It is realistic. The "I don't need no help from no damned man" crap needs to go away.:eek:
The point is that we are all human and sometimes we need help. Look at the near disaster Rand got himself into by shutting himself away and thinking he had to bear it all on his own?
From the very beginning WOT has been about turning "traditional" gender roles on their head. The world we were introduced to is a Matriarchal society. Women hold the greatest power - saidar. And part of the ongoing narrative is how screwed up things become when one gender dominates. The AOL utopia is egalitarian. RJ keeps bringing up the concept that the greatest works were done by men and women together.:D
RJ didn't tear down Moiraine - he deepened the character. A truly strong person is strong enough to admit when they need help. Moiraine sacrificed pride for victory. She saw the potential futures and swallowed her pride and did what had to be done. How many characters in this series have done that? They all scream about doing what has to be done but they aren't asked to sacrifice their pride in doing it. Morgase steps down in self pity... deeming herself unworthy. Moiraine knows she is going to have to be rescued<and it appalls her>but she knows that it is necessary to win... actually to have any hope of winning. That is a Heroine.
Maybe a rethinking of what a strong character really is may be in order.

Again. Missed the point.

She was helpless. She didn't have to be. Had it been about her "admitting her weakness" or whatever, fine. But again, you missed the point of my posts.


And can we really quit throwing around exactly how long we've all been here? It's rather childish. This is not the first post I've seen with this assertion.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Again. Missed the point.

She was helpless. She didn't have to be. Had it been about her "admitting her weakness" or whatever, fine. But again, you missed the point of my posts.


And can we really quit throwing around exactly how long we've all been here? It's rather childish. This is not the first post I've seen with this assertion.

~resists urge...~

Screw it, in the 8 years, 2 months I've been a member of Theoryland, I've seen and read a lot of arguments and I have to agree that many seem to have missed the point of Gil's issue with the scene.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 07:21 PM
~resists urge...~

Screw it, in the 8 years, 2 months I've been a member of Theoryland, I've seen and read a lot of arguments and I have to agree that many seem to have missed the point of Gil's issue with the scene.

Am I somehow not being clear? I mean, I admit to being rusty. I've been here since 1999, but I've avoided the General for a while. I could be rusty, I guess.

Dav, would you be a dear and please tell lil ol' me where I went wrong? You being a big strong man and everything. ~bats eyelashes~

David Selig
10-19-2011, 07:28 PM
But why is participating in this particular case so crucial? Why does Moiraine have to help every time? Nobody would call a soldier who gets captured because that was the only way to save the commander, and then had to get rescued and takes a passive role during the rescue, weak. Everyone will consider him a hero.

How many times was Rand saved without participating at all? Even if we discount the first three books or so, where he was still much in control of his powers, we have the rescue from the Far Madding cells (in which he ended up because his plan was really stupid, BTW), his Healing by Flinn, Corele and Samitsu in ACOS, Moridin saving him in Shadar Logoth, Cadsuane and the others saving him after Semi has knocked him unconscious with that fireball in KoD, I am probably forgetting a few others... But nobody is calling him weak. Sometimes people need help from others and can't contribute to their own rescue, that doesn't necessary make them weak.

Moiraine admits to being weakened. (OK, fine. Anyone would be after that ordeal. Not my issue.) She then tells him that the angreal is the only thing giving her power. OK, fine, she has other strengths -- a lot of them her strength of will and her intelligence. And then offers to throw it away, something she bargained for from her torturers, to make herself more acceptable to him. Her offer to throw the angreal away comes on the heels of a mention of the White Tower. White tower = Aes Sedai. And we know how the Aes Sedai feel about strength in the Power. While she sacrificed her power to save Rand, she's offering to give up the rest for Thom. With the angreal, which, since only Thom and Mat know about it won't be taken from her, she can retain the illusion of strength which would keep her position among the Aes Sedai secure (After all, Cadsuane's got one and no one's taking it away from her). In throwing it away, for Thom, she is in effect, offering to give up her place in the White Tower since she's no longer, "strong enough to be raised Accepted." (WE know that's not the case any more because of Egwene. SHE does not. So she is here, offering to give up her life, her cause, so that Thom will accept her.)
Unless she's holding saidar all the time, the Aes Sedai will soon know she's using an angreal and what her actual strength in the Power is. And weak or not, she can still channel. Even the Aes Sedai idiocy has limits, I don't see why she would expect to be kicked out of the Tower. I doubt Tower Law includes provisions for dismissing Aes Sedai whose strength in the Power below a certain level - losing only a part of your strength was unheard of before the current events.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 07:37 PM
But why is participating in this particular case so crucial?

Because it's essentially her re-introduction after however many books she's been gone. Sort of like a second first impression.

Why does Moiraine have to help every time? Nobody would call a soldier who gets captured because that was the only way to save the commander, and then had to get rescued and takes a passive role during the rescue, weak. Everyone will consider him a hero.

Please tell me where I said Moiraine was weak other than by her own admission? I said she was forcibly portrayed as weak by bad writing. NOT THE SAME THING.

How many times was Rand saved without participating at all? Even if we discount the first three books or so, where he was still much in control of his powers, we have the rescue from the Far Madding cells (in which he ended up because his plan was really stupid, BTW), his Healing by Flinn, Corele and Samitsu in ACOS, Moridin saving him in Shadar Logoth, Cadsuane and the others saving him after Semi has knocked him unconscious with that fireball in KoD, I am probably forgetting a few others... But nobody is calling him weak. Sometimes people need help from others and can't contribute to their own rescue, that doesn't necessary make them weak.

Stop comparing Moiraine to the Jesus Analog, m'K? He's been broken and beaten for a reason. I don't even see where he enters into this.


Unless she's holding saidar all the time, the Aes Sedai will soon know she's using an angreal and what her actual strength in the Power is. And weak or not, she can still channel. Even the Aes Sedai idiocy has limits, I don't see why she would expect to be kicked out of the Tower. I doubt Tower Law includes provisions for dismissing Aes Sedai whose strength in the Power below a certain level - losing only a part of your strength was unheard of before the current events.

She said it herself. She wouldn't even make Accepted now. And by pre-Egwene rules, she wouldn't. And that means the Tower would distance itself from her. You're forgetting the culture in the Tower where Stilled women were shunned and avoided and "gently suggested" that they should leave as if the Stilling were somehow contagious. As far as she knows, the culture's no different.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 07:40 PM
Am I somehow not being clear? I mean, I admit to being rusty. I've been here since 1999, but I've avoided the General for a while. I could be rusty, I guess.

Dav, would you be a dear and please tell lil ol' me where I went wrong? You being a big strong man and everything. ~bats eyelashes~

Well honestly, Bryan made the first mistake when he let you on a computer. He never should have allowed you access to the outside world. Had he done his job as a man, you'd likely be knee deep in sandwich making right now without all these silly thoughts bouncing around in your head.

Seriously though, I dont see what you did wrong. Its a valid literary criticism of what could have been one of the best written scenes in the series.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 07:43 PM
On a side note, I could actually see Egwene quietly but very firmly demanding that angreal be "returned" to the White Tower as it is needed for the Last Battle, blah blah blah. Egwene the girl would feel bad about it but Egwene the Amyrlin is timeless and the Amyrlin needs to do what is best for the Tower...best in this case being putting that angreal in the hands of a more powerful channeler.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 07:43 PM
Well honestly, Bryan made the first mistake when he let you on a computer. He never should have allowed you access to the outside world. Had he done his job as a man, you'd likely be knee deep in sandwich making right now without all these silly thoughts bouncing around in your head.

Seriously though, I dont see what you did wrong. Its a valid literary criticism of what could have been one of the best written scenes in the series.

ROTFLMAO.

Literary criticism is a lost art?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 07:43 PM
On a side note, I could actually see Egwene quietly but very firmly demanding that angreal be "returned" to the White Tower as it is needed for the Last Battle, blah blah blah. Egwene the girl would feel bad about it but Egwene the Amyrlin is timeless and the Amyrlin needs to do what is best for the Tower...best in this case being putting that angreal in the hands of a more powerful channeler.

Like Nynaeve needs more of a boost. LOL

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 08:10 PM
More likely she's going to give it to some Accepted as part of some convoluted plot to attract the attention of the Forsaken and the 'idiot' Accepted will get herself killed because of it.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-19-2011, 08:11 PM
More likely she's going to give it to some Accepted as part of some convoluted plot to attract the attention of the Forsaken and the 'idiot' Accepted will get herself killed because of it.

Hey now. There's a different thread for that. Don't muck up my Moiraine thread with your Egwene hate.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 08:15 PM
More likely she's going to give it to some Accepted as part of some convoluted plot to attract the attention of the Forsaken and the 'idiot' Accepted will get herself killed because of it.

Well, she wouldn't outright give it...she'd talk about it with another aes sedai IN FRONT of that accepted and then act surprised and dismayed when the accepted seizes the initiative based on that comment.

Okay, I'll stop now.

jana
10-19-2011, 10:30 PM
Sorry Jana, but she's actually been greatly weakened from where she was in tFoH. It's possible that BS can salvage Moiraine's character in the last book, but he's really going to have to work at it. She was the strongest character in the series when she disappeared. As of her rescue, she's been seriously weakened and for seemingly no good reason other than the author wanted to do it that way.

No need to apologize since you're wrong :P

She said it herself. She wouldn't even make Accepted now. And by pre-Egwene rules, she wouldn't. And that means the Tower would distance itself from her. You're forgetting the culture in the Tower where Stilled women were shunned and avoided and "gently suggested" that they should leave as if the Stilling were somehow contagious. As far as she knows, the culture's no different.

This is where some of you are blind, I think. I obviously haven't read the book yet so I don't know. But I'm fairly certain Moiraine's going to kick even more @ss than ever because even though she's weak in the power she will still be strong in all other ways and not be subservient to anyone. That makes her better than she was before. The whole power level thing is way over rated. It never defined who she is and it won't now, either.

With the angreal, which, since only Thom and Mat know about it won't be taken from her, she can retain the illusion of strength which would keep her position among the Aes Sedai secure.

This would make her a joke in my eyes. "I'll pretend I'm strong so they won't disrespect me." I'm okay with people being upset about her wanting to give up the angreal, but this isn't a good argument at all.

Lupusdeusest
10-20-2011, 12:57 AM
I've been resisting getting involved, but I feel I should add something.
Mat and co knew they would come out with Moi if they came out at all. They knew if she was killed (or rather "killed") even knowing her imminent demise she would have been unlikely to pack for it.

Why didn't they pick up some (even poorly fitting) women's clothes on the way there? Or been.. prepared for a need for clothes? If anything, they could use the clothes for bandages in case of injury.

Even if they had suspected a quick change in tower may have been too dangerous, there is still the strong possibility that she'd be ragged and singed from Lanfear at least.



(Surely Setalle could have packed for them?)

Enigma
10-20-2011, 06:33 AM
They are going into an alien and mysterious realm facing countless potential enemies with abilities and skills that Mat & co can only guess at. They have no idea how far they will have to travel, or how long the mission will last, and you suggest that they bring a chance of clothing?

I would suspect that things like rations, water, fireworks, weapons etc might be more of an issue and they can only carry so much without a pack horse. If they are to be mobile enought to be able to move quickly not to mention fight, that cuts down on what they can carry furhter.

As for is Moiraine reduced by the scene. I suppose that depends on how you look at the scene and Moiraine. If you saw Moiraine as a superwoman who was all powerful, taking on Forsaken etc then yes she would be diminished but I take a different view. No one is all powerful except the creator. Even zen Rand is not invinciple nor is the Dark One.

When we were first introduced to Moiraine we saw her very much througth the eyes of Rand and the other Two Rivers people. The world was a lot simpler. Aes Sedai were all powerful, male channelers were monsters but so were the Red Ajah and the Forsaken were demi gods. Except they were not. Moiraine was a powerful Aes Sedai but she was only one woman who was doing her best to save the world. She had to put on a good show for the gang but I'm sure that she had her moments of doubt of fear and uncertainty as to what she should do. When she went to investigate Sammael in TDR she kept Lan away because she thought she was going to die and she wanted him to look after Perin & co, but she still went.

With respect it is the fact that she was not all powerful or all knowing that made her acheivements all the more impressive. She punched way above her weight for as long as we have known her.

In the Tower she was seen as humiliated if not degraded and one of the cornerstones of her life, her ability with the OP has been greatly reduced and she was totally dependant on others for her rescue. Party that was probably done to show that the snakes and foxes while not evil like the DO, are still nasty creatures. Party RJ seemed to have a slight fetish about naked women. Lastly it could have been there to show that if you constantly mess with powers greather that you, eventually it will come back and bight you in the ass. Think of what happened to Nicola in the last book as well.

Moiraine has a fair idea of what was waiting for her but she still tackled Lanfear and saved Rand. Knowing the price she would pay I think the scene in the Tower shows just how brave and committed Moiraine has been through out the series.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 08:00 AM
No need to apologize since you're wrong :P



This is where some of you are blind, I think. I obviously haven't read the book yet so I don't know. But I'm fairly certain Moiraine's going to kick even more @ss than ever because even though she's weak in the power she will still be strong in all other ways and not be subservient to anyone. That makes her better than she was before. The whole power level thing is way over rated. It never defined who she is and it won't now, either.



This would make her a joke in my eyes. "I'll pretend I'm strong so they won't disrespect me." I'm okay with people being upset about her wanting to give up the angreal, but this isn't a good argument at all.

Again. Ignoring EVERY POINT I've made. You are talking about her as if her future accomplishments have already occurred, they haven't.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 08:03 AM
In the Tower she was seen as humiliated if not degraded and one of the cornerstones of her life, her ability with the OP has been greatly reduced and she was totally dependant on others for her rescue. Party that was probably done to show that the snakes and foxes while not evil like the DO, are still nasty creatures. Party RJ seemed to have a slight fetish about naked women. Lastly it could have been there to show that if you constantly mess with powers greather that you, eventually it will come back and bight you in the ass. Think of what happened to Nicola in the last book as well.

Moiraine has a fair idea of what was waiting for her but she still tackled Lanfear and saved Rand. Knowing the price she would pay I think the scene in the Tower shows just how brave and committed Moiraine has been through out the series.

You know, that might have been the goal, but that's not what was shown.

jana
10-20-2011, 08:39 AM
Again. Ignoring EVERY POINT I've made. You are talking about her as if her future accomplishments have already occurred, they haven't.

I'm basing her future off of her past. This is theoryland so I'll call it a theory. People who think she won't come up with a way to not be demeaned because of her weakness in the One Power weren't paying attention during the first five books. She was great because of who/what she was, not because of her OP strength. People who think this one little tiny thing in her life determines her future and makes her weaker and nothing else counts are being silly. She's stronger for surviving it. Why is she weaker for acting a bit off for the first few hours after being tortured for 8+ months?? And if she had helped a lot in the rescue, most of you would be complaining about how she should have been able to escape by herself. I guarantee it, no matter how many times it's said "well she could have just lit the fireworks." (I've already seen the argument that she could have escaped by herself, more times than I can count).

As for the stuff I ignored, I agreed with a lot of the posts other people made, so didn't feel the need to reply.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 08:43 AM
I'm basing her future off of her past. This is theoryland so I'll call it a theory. People who think she won't come up with a way to not be demeaned because of her weakness in the One Power weren't paying attention during the first five books. She was great because of who/what she was, not because of her OP strength. People who think this one little tiny thing in her life determines her future and makes her weaker and nothing else counts are being silly. She's stronger for surviving it. Why is she weaker for acting a bit off for the first few hours after being tortured for 8+ months?? And if she had helped a lot in the rescue, most of you would be complaining about how she should have been able to escape by herself. I guarantee it, no matter how many times it's said "well she could have just lit the fireworks." (I've already seen the argument that she could have escaped by herself, more times than I can count).

As for the stuff I ignored, I agreed with a lot of the posts other people made, so didn't feel the need to reply.

But I'm not discussing a theory. I'm discussing what's right there in plain text. You want to speculate how Moiraine will recover from this, start a new thread. You haven't even addressed the points I've made.

And I never said my issues were based entirely on her OP strength. So quit putting words in my mouth.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-20-2011, 09:55 AM
I really didn't have a problem with the Ghenjei Tower sequence... until after they got out of it. That's when the gag-reflex started working. Everything about those few pages was so incredibly wrong. Just... wrong.

Moiraine simpering at Thom (out of character for the reasons Gil, Frenzy, SBX and Dav have already amply shown).

Thom being all caring and nurturing but at the same time alpha-male posessive. so out of character for him, if you think about it. Sure, he cares about people but most of the time he lets (=encourages) them do their own thing, he advises and helps out but he doesn't forbid or dictate. Ever. He even gives Mat the advice that sometimes helping a someone means helping them do what they want/need to do! (That's in LoC, when Mat has just arrived in Salidar)

Mat's reaction to the whole thing: "my eye just got gouged out but I'm fine with it and besides, more importantly, there's icky kissing going on. ewww" first off, Mat's such a selfish whiny little bastard (I mean HOW many times does he adjust his scarf?), and he's not concerned about losing an eye? and Mat, THE Ladies Man of the series is bothered by some intimacy??? really?

all in all that whole sequence should have been left out entirely as far as I'm concerned.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 09:58 AM
I've bolded the parts that bother me. Now, when I analyze this passage there's an order that leaps out: He tells her he's never liked women who can channel and it's held him back in the past.

This is essentially an admission of the fact that her Aes Sedai-ness, her power, her ability, is what kept him away from her in the past (not the fact that she was a cold-hearted, driven, manipulative harpy in a pretty package -- just the whole channeling thing). That while she was strong and fully capable, he couldn't deal.No, the point was that he did not want to deal with a channeler. The fact that she was strong was a pre, not something that turned him off.

Compare it to Mat, who was quite happy being Rand's friend until he found out that Rand could channel. Then Mat needed a lot of time to come to terms with that, and decide "all right, I'll ignore that bad habit of his".

Thom did the same. He too eventually decided to overlook the bad habit even though it still bothered him a bit. Her being temporarily weakened was not what brought him to his acceptance, it was merely what let Moiraine talk about it from her side.

If Thom hadn't wanted to hook up with a strong and powerful woman, then he would have left Morgase alone until after she'd abdicated.

Tree Brother
10-20-2011, 10:11 AM
But I'm not discussing a theory. I'm discussing what's right there in plain text. You want to speculate how Moiraine will recover from this, start a new thread. You haven't even addressed the points I've made.

It may be time to restate exactly what the issue is again. It has been a page or so. ;)

There is no problem with "price paid", etc. Correct? The main issue is the whole "I will leave it all for you Thom" part? Which is not exactly in character?

Since this is an opinion thread :) I will just say that I saw nothing wrong with the whole carrying her out like a sack of potatoes thing.

She choose this possible outcome from the many futures she saw. She had a good idea of the price that would need to be paid for eliminating Lanfear (short term), and whatever else she would gain from the 'Finn visit. She made this sacrifice (including the need to be rescued). I am fine with how the escape was written. {The fact that Jain died, when he probably didn't have too... that was sad and unfortunate. But in character, I think.}

Regarding the parts outside of the tower. I think there is a very good chance that those scenes were ones that would have been revised 10 times before they were printed. And I am not sure RJ anticipated the way the books are being split as well.

I do wonder why that part wasn't edited to read a bit differently. I guess I came up with excuses for why it could be this way, and work. (maybe this was a section that BS decided should included as is, without edits -- or maybe RJ only wrote the escape, then said: Thom and Morianne have a loving reunion, and BS wrote that part -- anyone have comments on the writing style pre and post the tower?)

I am sure it will all work out in the next book -- which is not what this thread is about.


(I apologize, Treebrother. I completely screwed up your post. I'm going to try to fix it. I hit the wrong button. I meant to hit "quote." I am NOT used to having mod powers again. -- I hope I fixed it and I'll hit the right button this time. Again, please forgive me.)

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 10:29 AM
It may be time to restate exactly what the issue is again. It has been a page or so. ;)

Maybe. :D

There is no problem with "price paid", etc. Correct? The main issue is the whole "I will leave it all for you Thom" part? Which is not exactly in character?

Well, I don't like the lack of participation in her own rescue. It renders her a hindrance and an inanimate object and she didn't have to be. But yes, that's where my stomach really turned.

Since this is an opinion thread :) I will just say that I saw nothing wrong with the whole carrying her out like a sack of potatoes thing.

That's fine. You're welcome to disagree, as long as you actually address my points. Which you've done.

She choose this possible outcome from the many futures she saw. She had a good idea of the price that would need to be paid for eliminating Lanfear (short term), and whatever else she would gain from the 'Finn visit. She made this sacrifice (including the need to be rescued). I am fine with how the escape was written. {The fact that Jain died, when he probably didn't have too... that was sad and unfortunate. But in character, I think.}


I actually found Jain's death rather pointless given the aforementioned helplessness of Moiraine. But... we'll agree to disagree.

Regarding the parts outside of the tower. I think there is a very good chance that those scenes were ones that would have been revised 10 times before they were printed. And I am not sure RJ anticipated the way the books are being split as well.

I do wonder why that part wasn't edited to read a bit differently. I guess I came up with excuses for why it could be this way, and work. (maybe this was a section that BS decided should included as is, without edits -- or maybe RJ only wrote the escape, then said: Thom and Morianne have a loving reunion, and BS wrote that part -- anyone have comments on the writing style pre and post the tower?)

I am sure it will all work out in the next book -- which is not what this thread is about.


The style doesn't really change. It's still Mat's head, but it's written the way RJ used to write Mat (slightly petulant), not the more humorous way Sanderson does. I'm not sure it really matters, though. Not playing the blame game. I'm just annoyed.

She offered to give up something she sacrificed two years of her life for. If she hadn't asked for the Angreal, she might have been able to ask for her release instead.

DahLliA
10-20-2011, 10:45 AM
I think you're all reading way too much into a few paragraphs. Moiraine was awesome before the rescue and she'll be awesome in the last book.

as for her being naked, I bet RJ read all the complaints about the dress-descriptions in WH and decided "screw it. I'll just let her be naked":p

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Am I somehow not being clear? I mean, I admit to being rusty. I've been here since 1999, but I've avoided the General for a while. I could be rusty, I guess.

Dav, would you be a dear and please tell lil ol' me where I went wrong? You being a big strong man and everything. ~bats eyelashes~

You know, I've been here since January of 2000, so over 11 and a half years. In all that time, I've seen a lot of missed points, I've addressed a lot of missed points, and this--this is no missed point.

You wrote:

She's unconscious throughout her entire rescue, not once being able to participate in it. I could deal with the princess in the tower trope, if like Princess Leia Organa, she then takes charge of her own rescue and leads them out. (Yes, I know, it's Matt's show. SHE STILL COULD HAVE BEEN AWAKE!) Being unconscious through the entire rescue mission was rather cheap and reduced her to just another obstacle/dead weight Matt and Thom had to deal with in their escape. This is the fate that awaited Moiraine? The one Aes Sedai to have found and guided the Dragon Reborn from his sleepy little village to the one-man wrecking ball/savior he is now? To be carried ignominiously like a sack of potatoes, sleeping through her own mission? How dignified.


IMO, it is unrealistic to expect much from Moiraine at this point. She's been in the ToG for two years, and we know from Lanfear's experience that it can't be pleasant. We know it's all but impossible to escape the Ael'finn and Eel'finn, and we also know they apparently use skin as evening wear. I'm not exactly sure what you were expecting, but I sure as hell wasn't expecting Moiraine to be waiting there with an uzi. Remember, we got to see Princess Leia in the Death Star, interacting with Darth Vader and the Imperial staff. We knew she was alive, conscious, and very much in control of herself. We had no such information about Moiraine, and many indications that things would be ugly.

This doesn't miss the point. You see, you're criticizing the fact that she took no part in her rescue. I (and others) are suggesting that it might be unrealistic for her to participate, let alone lead it. The authors had a choice between toeing the chauvinist line (which this does, I agree) and risking complete implausibility.

Unfortunately, I think they got it wrong on both. It can come off as sexist, but it's also pretty unrealistic. D'oh.

One quick point regarding the angreal: Moiraine's power level would still be detectable by any and all AS, unless she learned to mask it. The angreal would allow her to draw more, but when she wasn't actively channeling she would seem just as weak as she now is. The angreal is not going to help her if the AS still use OP strength as a measure of leadership.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:08 AM
You know, I've been here since January of 2000, so over 11 and a half years. In all that time, I've seen a lot of missed points, I've addressed a lot of missed points, and this--this is no missed point.

You wrote:



IMO, it is unrealistic to expect much from Moiraine at this point. She's been in the ToG for two years, and we know from Lanfear's experience that it can't be pleasant. We know it's all but impossible to escape the Ael'finn and Eel'finn, and we also know they apparently use skin as evening wear. I'm not exactly sure what you were expecting, but I sure as hell wasn't expecting Moiraine to be waiting there with an uzi. Remember, we got to see Princess Leia in the Death Star, interacting with Darth Vader and the Imperial staff. We knew she was alive, conscious, and very much in control of herself. We had no such information about Moiraine, and many indications that things would be ugly.

This doesn't miss the point. You see, you're criticizing the fact that she took no part in her rescue. I (and others) are suggesting that it might be unrealistic for her to participate, let alone lead it. The authors had a choice between toeing the chauvinist line (which this does, I agree) and risking complete implausibility.

Unfortunately, I think they got it wrong on both. It can come off as sexist, but it's also pretty unrealistic. D'oh.

One quick point regarding the angreal: Moiraine's power level would still be detectable by any and all AS, unless she learned to mask it. The angreal would allow her to draw more, but when she wasn't actively channeling she would seem just as weak as she now is. The angreal is not going to help her if the AS still use OP strength as a measure of leadership.

YOU aren't missing my points, SDog. We just don't agree. Which is why I haven't been arguing with you. Telling me I'm denigrating Moiraine because I don't like her rescue or that I'm equating strength in the OP as strength of character is missing my point.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 11:14 AM
As an aside: Moiraine could've had the Randland equivalent of the Stockhold Syndrome. Wouldn't that have been something, if she'd been an unwilling rescuee? :p

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:18 AM
As an aside: Moiraine could've had the Randland equivalent of the Stockhold Syndrome. Wouldn't that have been something, if she'd been an unwilling rescuee? :p

It would be more interesting than what we got.

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 11:21 AM
YOU aren't missing my points, SDog. We just don't agree. Which is why I haven't been arguing with you. Telling me I'm denigrating Moiraine because I don't like her rescue or that I'm equating strength in the OP as strength of character is missing my point.

Yeah, I just wanted to talk about how long I've been at Theoryland.

But really, I don't think the "realistic" crowd is missing your point all that much either. You guys keep saying we are, but I disagree. FWIW

Tamyrlin
10-20-2011, 11:21 AM
Moiraine defending the Finns...damn, wish he would have gone that way.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:23 AM
Yeah, I just wanted to talk about how long I've been at Theoryland.

But really, I don't think the "realistic" crowd is missing your point all that much either. You guys keep saying we are, but I disagree. FWIW


Figured. Still been here longer than you. :D

Yeah, they are SDog, if that's what they're accusing me of.

arioch
10-20-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm going to make this post again.


“Dearest Thom,” she said. “I would have you for a husband, if you’ll have me for a wife.”

“What?” Mat said, standing up. He raised a hand to his forehead, nearly knocking his hat free. “What did you say?”

“Hush, Mat,” Thom said. He did not take Moiraine’s offered hand. “You know I’ve never much liked women who can channel the One Power, Moiraine. You know it held me back in the past.”

“I don’t have much of the Power now, dearest Thom. Without this angreal, I wouldn’t be strong enough to be raised Accepted in the White Tower. I will throw it away, if you wish it of me.” She lifted out her other hand, barely staying modest. She pulled off the angreal.

“I don’t think so, Moiraine,” Thom said, kneeling down, taking her hands. “No, I won’t rob you of anything.”

“But with it I’ll be very strong, stronger in the Power than before I was taken.”

“So be it, then,” he said. He put the bracelet back on her wrist. “I’ll marry you now, if you wish it.”

Jordan, Robert; Sanderson, Brandon (2011-01-31). Towers of Midnight (Wheel of Time) (p. 826). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.


NOWHERE in those paragraphs is Moiraine offering to give up herself to attach herself to Thom. NOWHERE.

If you conflate her strength in the Power to her strength as a character and as a motivator of action, you are flat out wrong.

This is not a theory discussion.

This is plain fact.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm going to make this post again.



NOWHERE in those paragraphs is Moiraine offering to give up herself to attach herself to Thom. NOWHERE.

If you conflate her strength in the Power to her strength as a character and as a motivator of action, you are flat out wrong.

This is not a theory discussion.

This is plain fact.

Glad you're here to tell me these things. Because truly, I have no idea how to analyze text and infer its meaning.

arioch
10-20-2011, 11:27 AM
Glad you're here to tell me these things. Because truly, I have no idea how to analyze text and infer its meaning.

Apparently you don't.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Apparently you don't.

Riiiggghhhtttt..

So, you don't know that writers choose their words deliberately to convey a certain message with each and every sentence?

This is not theory because I'm analyzing the text. I am not projecting what will happen in the future.

You disagree with me, fine. Then make your point with what is written. Don't project what you think will happen in the future to cover this dreck right here, right now.

arioch
10-20-2011, 11:32 AM
Let's put it another way.

Moiraine's strength in the power hasn't been an issue since book 3 when she balefired Be'lal. Yet her strength as a character didn't fully take shape until books 4 and 5.

Why do you think this is?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:34 AM
:cool:Let's put it another way.

Moiraine's strength in the power hasn't been an issue since book 3 when she balefired Be'lal. Yet her strength as a character didn't fully take shape until books 4 and 5.

Why do you think this is?

Uh, her strength as a character was established from Winternight when she told off the people of Eamon's Field for being cowards.

arioch
10-20-2011, 11:35 AM
:cool:

Uh, her strength as a character was established from Winternight when she told off the people of Eamon's Field for being cowards.

Yeah, and do you think her strength as a character was established by the lengths of the fire she threw out from the ends of her staff, or from her self-possession, knowledge, etc.?

Brita
10-20-2011, 11:39 AM
It would be more interesting than what we got.

Moiraine defending the Finns...damn, wish he would have gone that way.

Yes! But there is no way that could be resolved in the one book we have left :(

In the 24 years I've been reading fantasy, the 16 years I've been reading WoT, the 3 years I lurked and the 4 years I've participated in TL, that is the most disappointing scene I have read, both in literary and emotional impact.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:44 AM
Yeah, and do you think her strength as a character was established by the lengths of the fire she threw out from the ends of her staff, or from her self-possession, knowledge, etc.?

Annnnnddddd, you've illustrated where you are missing my point.

I don't give a shit about her strength in the One Power except as it pertains to her being an Aes Sedai which, as we saw in her previous characterization, was an integral part of her personality. She liked being an Aes Sedai. She enjoyed being a Blue. She took pride in these things and integrated them into her identity. There is no established basis at this point in time to show she's evolved beyond this. None. To go back to my previous points about Aes Sedai and any Stilling or harm to their channeling ability, they shun those women like the bloody plague. Just ask Setalle Anan. She will not be welcome in the Tower, with or without the angreal. Which means she won't truly be Aes Sedai as far as she knows. Her one chance to hang on to it, might be that Angreal, and she offers to toss it aside for twooo wuv.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 11:48 AM
If I understand it correctly, then one of the issues is with the following sentences:
She glanced at Mat, and her eyes were still appraising. Yes, this was the same Moiraine. Humbled, cast down. That made her seem stronger to him for some reason.]The thing which is being overlooked here is that this is how Mat sees it. He has always been a bit uncomfortable around AS. The most intimidating AS he's met is Moiraine. She still intimidates him.

Actually, when she returns to the Tower, she can demonstrate the new, exceptionally rare, Talent of Taming Mat (TM).

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:49 AM
If I understand it correctly, then one of the issues is with the following sentences:
The thing which is being overlooked here is that this is how Mat sees it. He has always been a bit uncomfortable around AS. The most intimidating AS he's met is Moiraine. She still intimidates him.

Actually, when she returns to the Tower, she can demonstrate the new, exceptionally rare, Talent of Taming Mat (TM).

Nah, to me, that just demonstrates Mat's continued idiocy with the ladies. LOL

arioch
10-20-2011, 11:50 AM
Annnnnddddd, you've illustrated where you are missing my point.


I get it now, conflating Tower membership with character strength.

I ask you this. Was Siuan Sanche any less of a person, or as a character, when she was stilled? Is she any less after she was imperfectly healed?

Sure, she stands LOWER IN THE TOWER. But who gives a fuck? Besides the arrogant Aes Sedai, whose viewpoint conflating Strength In The Power as Strength of Character and Righteousness of Person have been demonstrably wrong OVER and OVER again in the text?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:57 AM
I get it now, conflating Tower membership with character strength.

I ask you this. Was Siuan Sanche any less of a person, or as a character, when she was stilled? Is she any less after she was imperfectly healed?

Sure, she stands LOWER IN THE TOWER. But who gives a fuck? Besides the arrogant Aes Sedai, whose viewpoint conflating Strength In The Power as Strength of Character and Righteousness of Person have been demonstrably wrong OVER and OVER again in the text?

Where the hell did I say I was conflating character strength with Tower Membership. I said MOIRAINE equated her identity with being Aes Sedai. *I* do not.

ShadowbaneX
10-20-2011, 12:48 PM
who's to say that she isn't? I mean she kept the other information she got out of the *'finns to herself for now. She could totally be evil...

ShadowbaneX
10-20-2011, 12:50 PM
Yes! But there is no way that could be resolved in the one book we have left :(

In the 24 years I've been reading fantasy, the 16 years I've been reading WoT, the 3 years I lurked and the 4 years I've participated in TL, that is the most disappointing scene I have read, both in literary and emotional impact.

You haven't read Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, have you?

Davian93
10-20-2011, 12:51 PM
who's to say that she isn't? I mean she kept the other information she got out of the *'finns to herself for now. She could totally be evil...

I'm going to go back and reread the entire series under the assumption that Demandred is actually Moiraine and has been from the start.

Moiraineadred!!!

Brita
10-20-2011, 12:52 PM
You haven't read Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, have you?

No, I haven't. And I gather I shouldn't...

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 12:54 PM
No, I haven't. And I gather I shouldn't...

You'll throw the book at the nearest wall.

ShadowbaneX
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
It'll go along perfectly with my Messana is actually Egwene theory.

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 01:45 PM
Figured. Still been here longer than you. :D

Maybe, but I'm smarter. :p

And anyway, what does it matter, right? I mean, we're not comparing tally marks on the cell wall. You can't really mark a padded cell very well...

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 01:46 PM
Maybe, but I'm smarter. :p

And anyway, what does it matter, right? I mean, we're not comparing tally marks on the cell wall. You can't really mark a padded cell very well...

You can.... Just have to chew it real well.

jana
10-20-2011, 01:54 PM
Where the hell did I say I was conflating character strength with Tower Membership. I said MOIRAINE equated her identity with being Aes Sedai. *I* do not.

I don't agree that she does, and that's probably the biggest disagreement we have. Moiraine has never really cared what Tower authorities have thought or have told her to do. She does what she wants. I don't think she feels like she's giving that much up by losing the angreal. I don't think she's cared how much respect she gets by other Aes Sedai since around the time of New Spring. Her being Aes Sedai is secondary to helping the Rand/the world.

I remember thinking when I read New Spring the first time, when there was a paragraph about how Blue Ajah aren't allowed to get married. I figured it wouldn't take more than a heartbeat for Moiraine to decide she doesn't give a crap what the rule is, she'll get married if she wants to, even if it means getting kicked out.

I do think it could have been written a bit better. I could have done without the "but with it I'll be more powerful than..." She didn't need to offer it twice.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 01:59 PM
You'll throw the book at the nearest wall.

I hear this but then others say its one of the best fantasy books out there...which is it?!?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:09 PM
I don't agree that she does, and that's probably the biggest disagreement we have. Moiraine has never really cared what Tower authorities have thought or have told her to do. She does what she wants. I don't think she feels like she's giving that much up by losing the angreal. I don't think she's cared how much respect she gets by other Aes Sedai since around the time of New Spring. Her being Aes Sedai is secondary to helping the Rand/the world.

I remember thinking when I read New Spring the first time, when there was a paragraph about how Blue Ajah aren't allowed to get married. I figured it wouldn't take more than a heartbeat for Moiraine to decide she doesn't give a crap what the rule is, she'll get married if she wants to, even if it means getting kicked out.

I do think it could have been written a bit better. I could have done without the "but with it I'll be more powerful than..." She didn't need to offer it twice.

Uh, you can be rebellious and still be proud of being something, you know.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:09 PM
I hear this but then others say its one of the best fantasy books out there...which is it?!?

I'll PM you.

arioch
10-20-2011, 02:25 PM
Uh, you can be rebellious and still be proud of being something, you know.

You can be weak in the Power and still be proud of being what that that Power is supposed to represent, you know.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:29 PM
You can be weak in the Power and still be proud of being what that that Power is supposed to represent, you know.

But she's willing to give it up. For Thom.

arioch
10-20-2011, 02:32 PM
But she's willing to give it up. For Thom.

To give up a bauble, not herself, not her cause, not her mission.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:40 PM
To give up a bauble, not herself, not her cause, not her mission.

An angreal is NOT a bauble. It is not her, it represents all of those things. By giving up the angreal, she's giving up what makes her, her. Otherwise, why would Thom say, "I'll not rob you of that."

Even HE understands what her offer means.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 02:44 PM
But she's willing to give it up. For Thom.

Perhaps she's seen the size of Thom's "harp" and realizes she's not so much giving up that power but gaining a very powerful harp instead.

arioch
10-20-2011, 02:45 PM
An angreal is NOT a bauble. It is not her, it represents all of those things. By giving up the angreal, she's giving up what makes her, her. Otherwise, why would Thom say, "I'll not rob you of that."

Even HE understands what her offer means.

No, she gave up that part of herself knowing she would give up that part of herself to save the Dragon Reborn from Lanfear.

Just because a trinket can temporarily restore her Power that she already gave up herself to her doesn't make it a part of her.

You are the one who is besmirching her character.

Power is a statistic. How she deals with that statistic is her character, not the statistic itself.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:49 PM
No, she gave up that part of herself knowing she would give up that part of herself to save the Dragon Reborn from Lanfear.

Just because a trinket can temporarily restore her Power that she already gave up herself to her doesn't make it a part of her.

You are the one who is besmirching her character.

She gave up two years of her life for this damned thing, how is it NOT a part of her? She could have asked for her release in the same condition she arrived. Instead she asked for a bloody Angreal. And then offers to give it up. If he'd accepted her bargain, that's two years of her life that's worth nothing. And she's in love with a man that doesn't value part of her. And yes, her power is part of her. Just as it is for every magic user, ever.

How the fuck am I besmirching her character when the author(s) did it first? I'm defending her character.

arioch
10-20-2011, 02:51 PM
She gave up two years of her life for this damned thing, how is it NOT a part of her? She could have asked for her release in the same condition she arrived. Instead she asked for a bloody Angreal. And then offers to give it up. If he'd accepted her bargain, that's two years of her life that's worth nothing. And she's in love with a man that doesn't value part of her.

How the fuck am I besmirching her character when the author(s) did it first? I'm defending her character.

You're doing a remarkably poor job of it.

You're still missing the point.

And the angreal wasn't her quest reward for saving the Dragon Reborn.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 02:55 PM
You're doing a remarkably poor job of it.

You're still missing the point.

And the angreal wasn't her quest reward for saving the Dragon Reborn.

She said it was one of the things she bargained for from the *finns. That's two years of her life she lost for that damned thing.

I think you're just trolling now.

Zombie Sammael
10-20-2011, 03:00 PM
Not adding much, but story wise the reason Moiraine couldn't ask for her release in the same condition she entered was because that would have precluded or altered the conditions which led to Rand to meeting Cadsuane, which may well have caused further problems down the line related to Rand's experience on Dragonmount. It's possible Moiraine knew this or had some inkling of it, and quite likely that she understood the conditions necessary for her release and the consequences should they not be met (she wrote a letter about it).

While this increases the power of her sacrifice to some extent, it doesn't diminish the damage done to her character by the means of her rescue or reduction in power status.

Seeker
10-20-2011, 03:05 PM
No, she gave up that part of herself knowing she would give up that part of herself to save the Dragon Reborn from Lanfear.

Just because a trinket can temporarily restore her Power that she already gave up herself to her doesn't make it a part of her.

You are the one who is besmirching her character.

Power is a statistic. How she deals with that statistic is her character, not the statistic itself.

Let's remember what that scene is about. Pay attention to Thom's body language.

"Dearest, Thom," she said. "I would have you for a husband if you would have me for a wife."

.... (Skipping Mat's shocked response)

"Hush, Mat," Thom said. He did not take Moiraine's offered hand. "You know I've never much liked women who channel the One Power, Moiraine. You know it held me back in the past."

"I don't have much of the Power now, Dearest Thom. Without this angreal, I wouldn't be strong enough to be raised Accepted in the White Tower. I will throw it away if you wish it of me." She lifted her other hand, barely staying modest. She pulled off the angreal.

"I don't think so, Moiraine," Thom said, kneeling down, taking her hands. "No, I won't rob you of anything."

"But with it, I'll be very strong, stronger in the power than when I was taken."

"So be it."

Thom does not take Moiraine's hands until after she offers to give up the angreal. The angreal is not a part of Moiraine but it is the source of her strength in the Power. Without it, she would barely be able to channel.

In short, she must be willing to weaken herself before Thom accepts her. THAT is what makes the scene offensive.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Let's remember what that scene is about. Pay attention to Thom's body language.



Thom does not take Moiraine's hands until after she offers to give up the angreal. The angreal is not a part of Moiraine but it is the source of her strength in the Power. Without it, she would barely be able to channel.

In short, she must be willing to weaken herself before Thom accepts her. THAT is what makes the scene offensive.

EXACTLY.

Apparently, this has to be posted every 20th post or something as people keep missing it.

jana
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Not adding much, but story wise the reason Moiraine couldn't ask for her release in the same condition she entered was because that would have precluded or altered the conditions which led to Rand to meeting Cadsuane, which may well have caused further problems down the line related to Rand's experience on Dragonmount.
Actually it was because every time she went through the ter'angreal she saw that there was no way to escape, including asking for a release. She gave up a different demand for the angreal. Not two years of her life. (It was actually 10 months, to be picky).

I knew from . . . previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 03:13 PM
Actually it was because every time she went through the ter'angreal she saw that there was no way to escape, including asking for a release. She gave up a different demand for the angreal. Not two years of her life. (It was actually 10 months, to be picky).


It's still her time served.

And thank you, Seeker.

jana
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
It's still her time served.
I know. As I said I was just being picky :p

yks 6nnetu hing
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
No, she gave up that part of herself knowing she would give up that part of herself to save the Dragon Reborn from Lanfear.

Just because a trinket can temporarily restore her Power that she already gave up herself to her doesn't make it a part of her.

You are the one who is besmirching her character.

Power is a statistic. How she deals with that statistic is her character, not the statistic itself.
Ok, Gil correct me if I'm reading your posts wrong...

What Gil is saying is this: Moiraine was a strong rolemodel figure (Gandalf/Merlin archetype). Part of that came from her ability to channel and the other part came from her knowledge, character and will. The thing is though, her ability to channel has formed her into being her probably more than any other factor. If she hadn't been as strong in the power as she was, she probably wouldn't have befriended Siuan and then it would've been unlikely that the two of them would have made a pact as Accepted to find and guide the Dragon Reborn. All her life has been aimed at finding Rand, helping him reach TG. And in all of that her strength in OP has given her leverage - be it in being able to leave the tower to go through dusty libraries. Not to even mention that if Moiraine had never been able to channel, she would probably have become the next queen of Cairhien - not necessarily a "weak" character but definitely not the Moiraine we all know.

What I'm trying to say is, while her character and will may be intrinsic to herself, simply being able to channel saidar has had a humongous effect on her personality. It is a part of who she is.

Now her ability is less. which is a blow to her but as mentioned several times before, this is not the main problem. The problem is that she seems to be perfectly willing to throw away the one thing she has that would help her in the most direct way help Rand. The thing (=helping the Dragon Reborn ito TG and in TG, that is) she's been working for for the past 20+ years. The very reason she spent 2 years in essentially a coma. She's offering to give up her life's work, something that has formed her into being her. THAT is something that on the one hand has everything to do with OP (it is an angreal, after all) and on the other hand it doesn't have anything to do with the OP, it has to do with Moiraine Damodred and her life's mission of the past 20+ years.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 03:19 PM
Ok, Gil correct me if I'm reading your posts wrong...

What Gil is saying is this: Moiraine was a strong rolemodel figure (Gandalf/Merlin archetype). Part of that came from her ability to channel and the other part came from her knowledge, character and will. The thing is though, her ability to channel has formed her into being her probably more than any other factor. If she hadn't been as strong in the power as she was, she probably wouldn't have befriended Siuan and then it would've been unlikely that the two of them would have made a pact as Accepted to find and guide the Dragon Reborn. All her life has been aimed at finding Rand, helping him reach TG. And in all of that her strength in OP has given her leverage - be it in being able to leave the tower to go through dusty libraries. Not to even mention that if Moiraine had never been able to channel, she would probably have become the next queen of Cairhien - not necessarily a "weak" character but definitely not the Moiraine we all know.

What I'm trying to say is, while her character and will may be intrinsic to herself, simply being able to channel saidar has had a humongous effect on her personality. It is a part of who she is.

Now her ability is less. which is a blow to her but as mentioned several times before, this is not the main problem. The problem is that she seems to be perfectly willing to throw away the one thing she has that would help her in the most direct way help Rand. The thing (=helping the Dragon Reborn ito TG and in TG, that is) she's been working for for the past 20+ years. The very reason she spent 2 years in essentially a coma. She's offering to give up her life's work, something that has formed her into being her. THAT is something that on the one hand has everything to do with OP (it is an angreal, after all) and on the other hand it doesn't have anything to do with the OP, it has to do with Moiraine Damodred and her life's mission of the past 20+ years.


Thank you, yks.

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 04:00 PM
So why not just assume that her love for Thom is such that it eclipses everything else? How is that a reflection of her character? Indeed, it speaks volumes about her character, and is only offensive if you want to read it that way.

Why do we suddenly not trust Moiraine to make the right decision, but instead blame the author for ruining her character?

If she was so great for so long, why assume she would ruin it now? THIS is what people mean when they talk about the next book. You can focus on the here and now all you want, but until you have more information why not trust Moiraine's instinct?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 04:06 PM
So why not just assume that her love for Thom is such that it eclipses everything else? How is that a reflection of her character? Indeed, it speaks volumes about her character, and is only offensive if you want to read it that way.

Why do we suddenly not trust Moiraine to make the right decision, but instead blame the author for ruining her character?

If she was so great for so long, why assume she would ruin it now? THIS is what people mean when they talk about the next book. You can focus on the here and now all you want, but until you have more information why not trust Moiraine's instinct?

Because we have nothing to go on. And too many female characters have not recovered in this series from their "emasculation" for lack of a better word. Whereas the men have been allowed to. There's no explanation. We don't even get a short POV in the last chapter from her.

No characters' fate is in their own hands. It's all in RJ's/BS's.

And it's not just Moiraine, SDog. Did you miss the part Seeker quoted?

Green Man 22
10-20-2011, 04:13 PM
You are all still assuming that Moiraine needs the power and her association as Aes Sedai in order to be able to help Rand.

In the 4-5 pages that Moiraine has been out of the tower and conscious, she has refused to reveal her other requests (although we assume they are for things that would help Rand). Isn't it possible that she now knows that she doesn't need the power or status of AS in order to help Rand?

Maybe she asked for the proper way to seal the Dark One? I know questions like that could be punished, but she already knew (sort of) what she was getting into, and she knew she couldn't get out without being rescued.

arioch
10-20-2011, 04:13 PM
And too many female characters have not recovered in this series from their "emasculation" for lack of a better word.

Because the only strength a woman can have is how male she is, gotcha.

Why is your perception of Moiraine caught up in various penis-length measuring contests?

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Because the only strength a woman can have is how male she is, gotcha.


Yep. You're trolling. Cause that's exactly what I said. Mmm hmmm.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
You are all still assuming that Moiraine needs the power and her association as Aes Sedai in order to be able to help Rand.

In the 4-5 pages that Moiraine has been out of the tower and conscious, she has refused to reveal her other requests (although we assume they are for things that would help Rand). Isn't it possible that she now knows that she doesn't need the power or status of AS in order to help Rand?

Maybe she asked for the proper way to seal the Dark One? I know questions like that could be punished, but she already knew (sort of) what she was getting into, and she knew she couldn't get out without being rescued.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm going with what's written.

arioch
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Yep. You're trolling. Cause that's exactly what I said. Mmm hmmm.

That is exactly what you said. "emasculate"

You don't have a better word for it because that's the only word for it.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 04:22 PM
That is exactly what you said. "emasculate"

You don't have a better word for it because that's the only word for it.


Because women are assumed to have no strength or power to remove, therefore there is no word for it.

arioch
10-20-2011, 04:28 PM
Because women are assumed to have no strength or power to remove, therefore there is no word for it.

Keep digging!

Brita
10-20-2011, 04:29 PM
e∑mas∑cu∑late/iˈmaskyəˌlāt/
Verb:

Make (a person, idea, or piece of legislation) weaker or less effective.
Deprive (a man) of his male role or identity: "he feels emasculated because he cannot control his sons' behavior".

There are two definitions, and the first fits what Gil is saying, and has nothing to do with how "manly" she is, but by being weakened.

Because women are assumed to have no strength or power to remove, therefore there is no word for it.

Snap!

Green Man 22
10-20-2011, 04:30 PM
I also love that you are jumping all over Thom for his body language having to do with Moiraine's offer.

Let me get this straight. A guy has just gone through hell in the Tower, has been planning and dreaming of saving Moiraine all this time, they just barely escape with their lives (except for Jain), and they have just been out of the tower (a few minutes).

"Mat half thought he [Thom] would try to boil water in his own hands, if only to get some warm tea for Moiraine."

That is hardly the picture of someone with conditional love.

Then Moiraine gets to flatten him with her marriage proposal (stealing his thunder), and when he doesn't instantly accept, you jump on him for it and say he would only accept her if weakened?

That seems to be a rather harsh view of Thom. She offers her hand (he doesn't immediately accept), they talk for another 10 seconds and then he kneels (not a chauvinist move) and accepts her, tells her he won't rob her of anything (basically that he won't allow her to sacrifice anything for him), and says that he'll marry her.

Give the guy a break!

That said, I definitely agree that most of the ambiguity (which offends some) is caused by the rather poor writing of this portion.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-20-2011, 04:32 PM
You are all still assuming that Moiraine needs the power and her association as Aes Sedai in order to be able to help Rand.


that's not really the main thing. Sure, Moiraine could continue in her path without the OP much like Siuan did. But the difference is that Siuan didn't have a choice, Moiraine does.

to put it very crudely, her choice is to support Rand with the One Power, her presence, guidance, knowledge and will.

Or to support Rand without the One Power but with her presence, guidance, knowledge and will.

Either which way I'm sure Rand would be rather happy to have her back, but again this is beside the point. The point is that Moiraine has a device which she has specifically bargained for, at great cost to herself, a device to help further her lifelong goal. Now that she's free to use the thing though, she is made to feel as if (and she accepts this as the only way things can be) she will not be loved unless she gives it up. Sure, it could be that Moiraine's love for Thom is something out of storybooks (teeheee), but if it is, it all happened off screen, so to speak. What has been emphasised over and over and over again about Moiraine is her dedication to finding and helping the Dragon Reborn, at any cost to herself. It is beyond uncharacteristic to suddenly want to give that up for a selfish reason of any kind.

then there's the third option of throwing it all away and living in a cozy little cottage with Thom while the world keels over. But frankly, I just can't see the both of them doing that.

Green Man 22
10-20-2011, 04:33 PM
I'm not assuming anything. I'm going with what's written.

But you are assuming, because it has not been written anywhere that Moiraine has to have a lot of strength in the One Power and she has to have the association of an Aes Sedai if she is going to be able to help Rand in any way. You will not find that written anywhere in the books. It just isn't there.

Seeker
10-20-2011, 04:34 PM
Okay, okay, let me shed some light on this.

The issue is not whether Moiraine is strong in the One Power. You don't have to be a channeler to be a strong female character. The issue is that Thom will not accept her unless she "humbles" herself and Moiraine is okay with that.

As a strong woman, she should object to Thom's reaction. Her response should be something like, "Well, Thom, channeling is a part of who I am. If you're not comfortable with it, perhaps we aren't right for each other."

Love that eclipses everything else isn't love, it's obsession.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 04:36 PM
But you are assuming, because it has not been written anywhere that Moiraine has to have a lot of strength in the One Power and she has to have the association of an Aes Sedai if she is going to be able to help Rand in any way. You will not find that written anywhere in the books. It just isn't there.

And where did I say that?