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Davian93
10-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Attempted ban on the potato struck down: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20111018_ap_senatevotesforunlimitedpotatoesinschoo ls.html


At least the Senate was smart enough to draw a line in the sand. Potatoes are not the reason kids are fat.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 08:57 AM
Why do potatoes count as vegetables?
I consider them an alternative for rice or pasta, neither of which are vegetables either.

And, to link in to the OP: thinking that potatoes are vegetables may explain why some kids are fat, especially if their parents think this.

ShadowbaneX
10-19-2011, 09:07 AM
If you're eating nothing but french fries and think that you're being healthy the problem isn't with the potato.

Sei'taer
10-19-2011, 09:24 AM
You should see the shit they serve kids at lunch. In our district and a few others in different places (I've asked people in other states) ketchup is considered a vegetable along with fries. Chocolate milk and strawberry milk are deemed healthier than regular milk.

Last week we went to eat with our son and the kids were eating hot ham and cheese sandwiches with jello and condiments. I guess the ketchup on the sandwich was one of the daily vegetables.

People wonder why our kids in school are obese...maybe it's the daily dose of white bread, three or four chocolate milks, some ketchup and two popsicles that they eat for lunch everyday.

If you're curious, go to your local schools webpage and look at the lunches and see what they are having and count up the calories on it. We send our lunch to school everyday, so we know he is getting good healthy food. The kids who are getting fucked are the ones that everyone is supposedly helping by giving them this shitty food for free. This is one of the pet peeves of mine. The gov't makes up rules about stuff like this, but then makes them so broad and stupid that ketchup and fries can be considered healthy vegetable serving. I know some kids need help, and I'm all for helping them, but starting a kindergatner out for life on a lunch of processed bullshit with a side of fat, greasy crap is not the way to help them along, poor or otherwise.

Now, I'm just going to stick with this because I don't even want to get into my other problems with administrative overhead that causes this kind of shit along with the abuse of our tax dollars that doesn't even help our kids.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 09:41 AM
Sei, whatever gives you the strange idea that it's about helping kids?
That angered the potato industry, some school districts and members of Congress from potato-growing states, who say USDA should focus on the preparation instead and that potatoes can be a good source of fiber and potassium.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 09:48 AM
I found the TV show that Jamie Oliver did incredibly interesting. Sad, but interesting. If you didn't see it, it was based upon a movement he led in Britain to help fight obesity, and the US program was aimed at healthier lunches in the schools.

The roadblocks he hit due to red tape and just, well, stick in the mud "we don't do it that way" attitudes were sad. :(

Here is the link...it gives you avenues to get involved

http://www.jamieoliver.com/us/foundation/jamies-food-revolution/home

Davian93
10-19-2011, 09:50 AM
In our district and a few others in different places (I've asked people in other states) ketchup is considered a vegetable along with fries. Chocolate milk and strawberry milk are deemed healthier than regular milk.



http://thenibble.com/REVIEWS/MAIN/condiments/ketchup/images/ronald-reagan-information.com-230.jpg
APPROVES

Davian93
10-19-2011, 09:52 AM
Potatoes dont cause obesity...eating more calories than you burn causes weight gain, nothing else. Its BS to attack carbs as bad. The potato is a perfectly healthy food if you eat it right...the skin of a potato has a ton of good things in it.

Also, a large part of childhood obesity has to do with a lack of physical activity both in school and at home. Parents need to take responsibility instead of blaming it on school lunches.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 09:58 AM
Then again, it does depend on what those school lunches consist of.
Susan Collins that would block the USDA from putting any limits on serving potatoes or other vegetables in school lunches.Serving unlimited amounts of french fries isn't really a good way of providing healthy food for children, you know.

And yes, I know that's not what she said. It is what this results in, though, so I don't think it is an inexcusable criticism.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 10:01 AM
Then again, it does depend on what those school lunches consist of.
Serving unlimited amounts of french fries isn't really a good way of providing healthy food for children, you know.

And yes, I know that's not what she said. It is what this results in, though, so I don't think it is an inexcusable criticism.

I dont usually even eat fast food but for some reason I could really go for some McDonalds french fries now. I think I'll go buy some.

GonzoTheGreat
10-19-2011, 10:04 AM
I dont usually even eat fast food but for some reason I could really go for some McDonalds french fries now. I think I'll go buy some.I think I'll credit Obama with saving the American potato industry. And in contrast to Bush with the car industry, a bailout wasn't necessary. Obama could do it with words alone.

Frenzy
10-19-2011, 10:14 AM
agreed; that show was sad and interesting.

my kids' school does cool stuff like teriyaki chicken rice bowls, empenadas, hot ham & cheese on wheat, hummus wraps, and all locally-grown too. Pretty hippy dippy for a public school, and a LONG way from the mystery meat & buttered noodles i remember as a kid :D

Sei'taer
10-19-2011, 10:25 AM
Potatoes dont cause obesity...eating more calories than you burn causes weight gain, nothing else. Its BS to attack carbs as bad. The potato is a perfectly healthy food if you eat it right...the skin of a potato has a ton of good things in it.

Also, a large part of childhood obesity has to do with a lack of physical activity both in school and at home. Parents need to take responsibility instead of blaming it on school lunches.

Potatoes aren't bad. When you fry processed potatoes (processed meaning they treat them with sugar so they will fry deeper and look nicer) add in plain white bread with processed chicken nuggets and ketchup and supernasty sugary chocolate milk and call that a healthy lunch then you are doing it wrong.

Parent's need to take responsibility for a lot more than just making sure their kids get exercise, but that's a whole different issue. If you could get school lunch for free and you thought it was healthy, wouldn't you do it also? I figure you probably would. I was told we could get school lunches for a discount, but after going and seeing the shit they feed kids, then I refused to do it and instead send lunch from home.

Here's what Jake took for lunch today:

Ham and cheddar cheese on whole wheat bread and a pickle
Blueberry yogurt
Apple juice
A mandarin orange (this is actually for afternoon snack...usually takes a water to go with it)


Here's what the school lunch was

Cheese quesadilla
salsa
Jello fruit cocktail
choice of milk
Frog Spit lemon lime popsicle (I'm not making that up, that's the name of the thing on the menu!)

Just a word about Jake, he's five, he weighs 63 pounds and is 51 inches tall. The first week of school the gym coach told us that he was obese. We had him checked at the doctor (because I was pissed) and the doctor sent a note to the coach that basically said you don't know what the fuck you're talking about so shut up. Jake doesn't really understand candy and all the hype about it, he's allergic to eggs so cake and brownies and such are out. I recently found a recipe for chocolate chip cookies that don't have eggs so he's just discovered cookies and likes them, but he knows they are a treat and not just for chewing on. This morning he came in after breakfast and said he was still hungry and asked if he could have a carrot...lmao!

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 11:11 AM
TBH, if you want to blame a group for the potato=veggie thing, blame USDA. They were instrumental in that campaign many years ago. However, potatoes, like everything else, are good, in moderation, and you can even have them as fries every now and then, and it isn't a bad thing.

If you want to blame something else, you an also blame the drive to get P.E. classes out of school due to things like fear of injury (lawsuits FTW!), fear of causing self-esteem issues, and fear of bullying, things all being pushed hard against and that have been laid at the feet of P.E. And sports programs at schools more times than I can count and something that was actually beig fought while I was in school here and was at least briefly removed from the graduation requirements. Yeah, no need for P.E.! Wow, kids are getting fatter faster than before... Hmmm. Oh, and they are actig out more in class and are being larger discipline issues.

No, there is nothing connected, and government will solve everything for us if we just ask nicely. Oh, wait, all those parents asking to protect their snowflakes from issues in P.E. Asked nicely and the gov't complied with their wishes. Done deal then. There is no problem.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 11:33 AM
The idea that "Parents know best" is a ludicrous myth with no basis in reality.

For another example of this fallacy, see all the parents that dont vaccinate their children because Jenny McCarthy told them their kids would become autistic.

Sei'taer
10-19-2011, 11:56 AM
The idea that "Parents know best" is a ludicrous myth with no basis in reality.

For another example of this fallacy, see all the parents that dont vaccinate their children because Jenny McCarthy told them their kids would become autistic.

I should be offended by this, but I know you don't have any kids so you can't really understand how it works (it's not a cut at you. You are incredibly intelligent and a damn nice guy and I can see that when you have kids you will be as involved in their lives as I am, if not more). I may not know what's best for my children in every facet of their life, but I know them far better than some coach who see's them once a week or some counselor who talks to them once a year. I know them better than their their teachers do. I know who has problems in what areas, I know what they like to do and what they don't, I know what they're allergic to and what they can eat, I know a lot about them, I know their personalities inside and out and you cannot tell me that I am the only parent on the planet that knows that.

I care about them much more than their teacher does. I know them. The idea that gov'ts and school systems can take a cookie cutter approach to kids is pure stupidity also. Kids don't learn the same, eat the same, play the same, talk the same, take tests the same. We're all different and I happen to like it that way.

My son has two black children in his class and he was drawing a birthday card for one of them. He asked where his brown crayon was because she had a really pretty dark tan. My wife started to say something and I stopped her. She told me later that she didn't want to offend anyone if he drew a picture of her that way. I said that I would be much more offended if he drew me any other way than the way I looked and if we said something he might decide that there was a reason to make a difference between them and his other classmates.

When we met her mother at a b'day party she told us that Jake was just a wonderful kid and that her daughter was so proud of that card because he was the only one that had given her one. She said it hung on the refrigerator the whole week of her birthday. I straight up asked her about the picture (to the horror of my wife) and she laughed and said it was beautiful and she was glad he had drawn a picture of her.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Taer, you're kinda in the minority though. Lots of parents likely never should have had children.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 12:01 PM
Taer, you're kinda in the minority though. Lots of parents likely never should have had children.

It is a big circular issue. If PE was left in schools, we wouldn't have this problem because Dodge Ball would've taken out the idiots who shouldn't have kids later in life and don't know that KETCHUP and FRENCH FRIES are not a good lunch for a 7 year old.

The Circle of Life is a wunnerful thing :D

Davian93
10-19-2011, 12:03 PM
Dodgeball was awesome. I miss dodgeball.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 12:10 PM
Dodgeball was awesome. I miss dodgeball.

And that my son, is why you have no children. :D

Sei'taer
10-19-2011, 12:30 PM
I lOved dodgeball too and a game we called bombardment that was basically smear the queer but not so derogatory a term.

Davian, I don't think I'm in the minority. I think that the gov't has wanted people like me to believe I'm in the minority for a long time...probably since I was a little kid, or even before. I remember when school started to change when I was in third or fourth grade which was mid to late 70's. Apparently that trend has continued.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Taer, you're kinda in the minority though. Lots of parents likely never should have had children.

The hubris of that statement is astounding. That is the mistaken idea that somehow you know better or can decide for others how to live their lives. Every parent does know best because there is no better authority than the parent and their child. Not yours. I bet you would be spitting mad if some busy body came in and told you that they knew what was best for your child. Not to mention the almost sure falsehood that is your "minority" line. Do you realize how wrong that line of thinking is?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 12:42 PM
I lOved dodgeball too and a game we called bombardment that was basically smear the queer but not so derogatory a term.

Davian, I don't think I'm in the minority. I think that the gov't has wanted people like me to believe I'm in the minority for a long time...probably since I was a little kid, or even before. I remember when school started to change when I was in third or fourth grade which was mid to late 70's. Apparently that trend has continued.

In all seriousness, I agree. Parents for the most part know what is best for their kids and most try pretty hard to do right by them. My kid is 10 months old and just learning to eat real food. I know not to give him french fries and chicken fingers...he is getting green beans, carrots etc. Daycare promotes this also, absolutely no sugary drinks are allowed, and they provide lists of nutritious finger foods for the wee-ones. I don't see any of the mom's sending chicken nuggets in the lunch bucket.

I will certainly keep an eye on lunch time as he grows up.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 12:45 PM
I lOved dodgeball too and a game we called bombardment that was basically smear the queer but not so derogatory a term.

Davian, I don't think I'm in the minority. I think that the gov't has wanted people like me to believe I'm in the minority for a long time...probably since I was a little kid, or even before. I remember when school started to change when I was in third or fourth grade which was mid to late 70's. Apparently that trend has continued.

I think the truth is somewhere in between, as always. The overwhelming majority of parents are actively doing what they think is best for their kids - even the Jenny McCarthy acolytes. Sadly, most do not have the combination of intellect, common sense, time and resources that ST might have.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:29 PM
The hubris of that statement is astounding. That is the mistaken idea that somehow you know better or can decide for others how to live their lives. Every parent does know best because there is no better authority than the parent and their child. Not yours. I bet you would be spitting mad if some busy body came in and told you that they knew what was best for your child. Not to mention the almost sure falsehood that is your "minority" line. Do you realize how wrong that line of thinking is?

You must have a higher opinion of humanity than I do then...or you simply haven't met the same idiot parents I've met.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 01:35 PM
You must have a higher opinion of humanity than I do then...or you simply haven't met the same idiot parents I've met.

speaking of which...have you all heard about THIS moron? (she says proudly. another Michigander making the news!!)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/18/us/michigan-driver-daughter/



(CNN) -- A 9-year-old girl, propped on a booster seat behind the steering wheel of a van, was her father's "designated driver" during a recent wee-hours foray to a gas station, according to police in Michigan.

When an officer stopped the van, the girl's response, police said, was, "What did you stop me for? I was driving good."

Earlier, as surveillance cameras recorded the scene, the father told a Detroit-area store clerk that he had been drinking.

"I've got a designated driver," the man said, according to the tape, after strolling into a Citgo gas station with his daughter about 3 a.m. on October 8.

"Listen, we're leaving and she's driving," the man said, according to the surveillance tape.

The father appeared intoxicated and refused to take a breathalyzer test after the two were stopped, Brownstown, Michigan, Detective Lt. Robert Grant said. The man was charged with one felony count of child endangerment, a misdemeanor count of child abuse and habitual-offender fourth offense based on previous convictions, Grant added.

A preliminary hearing for the father was held Tuesday, and bail was set at $25,000.

The store's cameras captured footage of the child emerging from the driver's door of a red van after it pulled alongside a gas pump and jerked to a full stop.

"She drives us here," the man said on camera. "Nine years old, in the truck, we're here. She drove all the way here."

The pair climbed back into the van and continued traveling before a witness called police to the report the incident.

"Is the vehicle staying on the road?" asked the dispatcher, in a recorded conversation provided to CNN by police.

"Yeah, she's driving pretty good," the male caller, who did not identify himself on the call, said in the recording. "I'm telling you, I can't believe it."

The tipster added that the young girl made sure to use her turn signals as she drove, maneuvering northbound before police pulled her over.

Her father, Grant said, then exited the passenger side door and was arrested.

Upon opening the driver's door, police said they found the 9-year-old sitting atop a child booster seat directly behind the van's steering wheel.

The father previously had been convicted on felony counts involving stolen property, illegal possession of a firearm and unarmed robbery, Grant said.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 01:36 PM
You must have a higher opinion of humanity than I do then...or you simply haven't met the same idiot parents I've met.

I don't and I am sure I have. I worked in some pretty horrible jobs in undergrad, and my mom is from eastern Kentucky where it is perfectly normal to have more kids to increase your welfare support. But that does not mean I believe I have a right to decide who can procreate.

All of that does not change my mind one bit because it is dangerous to head down that road.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
I don't and I am sure I have. I worked in some pretty horrible jobs in undergrad, and my mom is from eastern Kentucky where it is perfectly normal to have more kids to increase your welfare support. But that does not mean I believe I have a right to decide who can procreate.
All of that does not change my mind one bit because it is dangerous to head down that road.

Yup, because that's what I said...god you're a fvcking jacka$$.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:47 PM
speaking of which...have you all heard about THIS moron? (she says proudly. another Michigander making the news!!)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/18/us/michigan-driver-daughter/



(CNN) -- A 9-year-old girl, propped on a booster seat behind the steering wheel of a van, was her father's "designated driver" during a recent wee-hours foray to a gas station, according to police in Michigan.

When an officer stopped the van, the girl's response, police said, was, "What did you stop me for? I was driving good."

Earlier, as surveillance cameras recorded the scene, the father told a Detroit-area store clerk that he had been drinking.

"I've got a designated driver," the man said, according to the tape, after strolling into a Citgo gas station with his daughter about 3 a.m. on October 8.

"Listen, we're leaving and she's driving," the man said, according to the surveillance tape.

The father appeared intoxicated and refused to take a breathalyzer test after the two were stopped, Brownstown, Michigan, Detective Lt. Robert Grant said. The man was charged with one felony count of child endangerment, a misdemeanor count of child abuse and habitual-offender fourth offense based on previous convictions, Grant added.

A preliminary hearing for the father was held Tuesday, and bail was set at $25,000.

The store's cameras captured footage of the child emerging from the driver's door of a red van after it pulled alongside a gas pump and jerked to a full stop.

"She drives us here," the man said on camera. "Nine years old, in the truck, we're here. She drove all the way here."

The pair climbed back into the van and continued traveling before a witness called police to the report the incident.

"Is the vehicle staying on the road?" asked the dispatcher, in a recorded conversation provided to CNN by police.

"Yeah, she's driving pretty good," the male caller, who did not identify himself on the call, said in the recording. "I'm telling you, I can't believe it."

The tipster added that the young girl made sure to use her turn signals as she drove, maneuvering northbound before police pulled her over.

Her father, Grant said, then exited the passenger side door and was arrested.

Upon opening the driver's door, police said they found the 9-year-old sitting atop a child booster seat directly behind the van's steering wheel.

The father previously had been convicted on felony counts involving stolen property, illegal possession of a firearm and unarmed robbery, Grant said.


He's a parent. As Res has told me, ALL parents know better than you or I how to raise a child. We should praise him for having the foresight to teach his small child how to drive a motor vehicle at such a young age. We have no right as people or as a society to interfere with said parenting method.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 01:58 PM
He's a parent. As Res has told me, ALL parents know better than you or I how to raise a child. We should praise him for having the foresight to teach his small child how to drive a motor vehicle at such a young age. We have no right as people or as a society to interfere with said parenting method.

So the only way to stop this is to institute breeding policies, is that your position?

Davian93
10-19-2011, 01:59 PM
So the only way to stop this is to institute breeding policies, is that your position?

The funny thing is I am actually just regurgitating your viewpoint (that all parents know better) while you are deliberately distorting and falsifying mine. However, that does make you a very good candidate for future office on the GOP ticket so you should be proud.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:00 PM
The hubris of that statement is astounding. That is the mistaken idea that somehow you know better or can decide for others how to live their lives. Every parent does know best because there is no better authority than the parent and their child. Not yours. I bet you would be spitting mad if some busy body came in and told you that they knew what was best for your child. Not to mention the almost sure falsehood that is your "minority" line. Do you realize how wrong that line of thinking is?

your words....

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:02 PM
your words....

He's right wing...you cannot use his own exact words to hang him by his petard. We're supposed to forget he said that while believing that I somehow suggested eugenics by my comment of "many parents are stupid".

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:02 PM
The funny thing is I am actually just regurgitating your viewpoint (that all parents know better) while you are deliberately distorting and falsifying mine. However, that does make you a very good candidate for future office on the GOP ticket so you should be proud.

Lots of parents likely never should have had children. - Is what you said,

How am I distorting your view? The only way you change that is institute some form of a breeding policy predicated that you or someone other than you know what is better for others. It is not your child, and yes I agree that bad things happen to kids but you wont be able to stop it and all you can do is punish it. Your concept is prior restraint, which flies in the face of our legal system. Do you know what is best for others kids? Can you present some evidence to show that the linked article is common or even above 1% of 1% of the population? Are there 30,000 exact headlines like this on a 300million population? 10% of 30k? What is the number that makes you believe there is an epidemic of this behavior so as to require that the dumb parents stop breeding.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:05 PM
Lots of parents likely never should have had children. - Is what you said,

How am I distorting your view? The only way you change that is institute some form of a breeding policy predicated that you or someone other than you know what is better for others. It is not your child, and yes I agree that bad things happen to kids but you wont be able to stop it and all you can do is punish it. Your concept is prior restraint, which flies in the face of our legal system.

Saying someone shouldn't do something doesnt mean that I believe it should be banned. I get that in your authoritarian world view, all of your opinions should be ironclad laws with no modification but in my world (I call it reality), having an opinion is not the same as forcing said opinion on others. For example, I find abortion repugnant and would never want my fiance to have one...however, I do not impose my moralistic judgement on others. You are an indivdual who does the exact opposite. That is how we are different people.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Saying someone shouldn't do something doesnt mean that I believe it should be banned. I get that in your authoritarian world view, all of your opinions should be ironclad laws with no modification but in my world (I call it reality), having an opinion is not the same as forcing said opinion on others. For example,

So you support a concept but do not take it to its logical end? My views, I have taken them to their logical course. Where do you think that standard comes from. Otherwise you are just spouting off like Gonzo. More to the point, what you are articulating is very fashionable to say, and it is dangerous. But even if it is just an opinion shouldn't it be based on something? Can you not support it?

I find abortion repugnant and would never want my fiance to have one...however, I do not impose my moralistic judgement on others. You are an indivdual who does the exact opposite. That is how we are different people.

So I should be allowed to murder people? At some point we decide where ones morality stops. Through meiosis, I have a good reason to believe a human life is born at conception and is deserving of protection. The quality of life argument is about the same as I can make that argument that a 1day old does not possess the quality of life that any adult does.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:14 PM
Can you present some evidence to show that the linked article is common or even above 1% of 1% of the population? Are there 30,000 exact headlines like this on a 300million population? 10% of 30k? What is the number that makes you believe there is an epidemic of this behavior so as to require that the dumb parents stop breeding.


Ahh, but I dont need to as you said "All". Thus, you must have meant "All". That said, this parent should not be criticized in your world view. I also assume in your world that there are no laws against child abuse or statutory rape by a parent/guardian. There wouldnt need to be as parents always know best and thus there is no reason to ban something that simply doesn't happen.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:15 PM
He's right wing...you cannot use his own exact words to hang him by his petard. We're supposed to forget he said that while believing that I somehow suggested eugenics by my comment of "many parents are stupid".

Sorry. I forgot. Only other people's words are to be taken literally.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:17 PM
Sorry. I forgot. Only other people's words are to be taken literally.

Its that or the typical "I didnt REALLY mean that, I was joking" defense that is given.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Its that or the typical "I didnt REALLY mean that, I was joking" defense that is given.

No, you use that defense of the two of us. You said something stupid then claim umbrage with the "I would not enforce this view" defense. You two make a cute couple by the way.

Also, I am not so big a jackass that I think I know better than others what is best for their kids, as you obviously do. I happen to believe in legal consequences to their actions but not prior restraint as you so obviously BELIEVE even if you would not act on it.

Ahh, but I dont need to as you said "All". Thus, you must have meant "All". That said, this parent should not be criticized in your world view. I also assume in your world that there are no laws against child abuse or statutory rape by a parent/guardian. There wouldnt need to be as parents always know best and thus there is no reason to ban something that simply doesn't happen.

I never said a parent should not be criticized, you said some people should not be allowed to have kids. Quite a world of difference mr. black and white. My views were clearly expressed in support of punishing those who break the law but not on "stopping idiots from breeding."

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Taer, you're kinda in the minority though. Lots of parents likely never should have had children.

Here are the literal words, Res. Where does Dav say that prior restraint should be invoked? Where does he say that people should be prevented from having children?

You are making assumptions as to his position that have ZERO literal evidence.

"Lots of children likely never should have had children."

"Lots of moviegoers likely never should have seen 'Magnolia'"

EDIT: You choose to read in nefarious eugenic intent and thought because it let's you play your little game of demonizing someone else and making yourself look hyper-reasonable. In reality, it just makes you look like a putz.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:30 PM
Again, you simply refuse or simply cannot understand my opinion. The difference between having an opinion and wanting to FORCE it on others is significant. I get that you cannot separate the two as you feel all of your opinions are 100% correct and SHOULD be forced on others but we aren't the same. You see everything as black and white...it makes sense on a certain level as you are a law student and that's simply part of the curriculum...there is ALWAYS a right or wrong answer for you. I have an opinion that many parents are dumb. The entire history of the world and humanity has shown this to be true...a majority of people in general are fairly stupid. There is a huge difference between forcing your opinions on others and hoping to get others to agree with your opinion.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:32 PM
Here are the literal words, Res. Where does Dav say that prior restraint should be invoked? Where does he say that people should be prevented from having children?

You are making assumptions as to his position that have ZERO literal evidence.

"Lots of children likely never should have had children."

"Lots of moviegoers likely never should have seen 'Magnolia'"


In Res's world:

I dont like mint ice cream=I think mint ice cream should be banned and those who attempt to make it should be inprisoned or culled from the herd.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-19-2011, 02:34 PM
Lots of parents likely never should have had children.

that is the quote you are now all agonizing over, correct?


Where exactly is the comment that breeding should be controlled?

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:34 PM
"Lots of moviegoers likely never should have seen 'Magnolia'"

Based on your(I do not mean you) idea that it is a bad movie based on inherently subjective media

"Lots of children likely never should have had children."

based on your, view that some people are unfit parents based on inherently subjective criteria



The entire history of the world and humanity has shown this to be true...a majority of people in general are fairly stupid. There is a huge difference between forcing your opinions on others and hoping to get others to agree with your opinion.

So you would not include yourself in the "stupid" group? That is my problem with these statements bc invariably they (the person saying others) never mean themselves but by their reasoning others could apply the same standard that they feel makes others deficient. I once heard an art special ed teacher say that sometimes someone just needs to take a bat to the head for society. I am sure she did not mean to enforce that view but I still find the view troubling. And since you are a history major who is intelligent you should understand that people frequently do enforce those views they only thought. A psychologist could tell you that frequently people fantasize before they do what would ordinarily seem wrong.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Based on your(I do not mean you) idea that it is a bad movie based on inherently subjective media



based on your, view that some people are unfit parents based on inherently subjective criteria

PRECISELY!!!

Nowhere am I saying that the movie Magnolia be banned, the director shot and the actors imprisoned. Merely my opinion that the movie pretty much sucked and I should not have seen it (and yes, it is my personal opinion - although I recognize and appreciate the effort to not put words in my mouth).

Nowhere is Dav saying that certain people should be prevented from having children - only his opinion that some people should not have had children

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:40 PM
that is the quote you are now all agonizing over, correct?


Where exactly is the comment that breeding should be controlled?

In his mind...which apparently is a chaotic and confused place.

Of course, anyone who has paid any attention over the past 8+ years I've been posting on TL would know that I am an ardent support of nazistic eugenics programs.

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:40 PM
PRECISELY!!!

Nowhere am I saying that the movie Magnolia be banned, the director shot and the actors imprisoned. Merely my opinion that the movie pretty much sucked and I should not have seen it (and yes, it is my personal opinion - although I recognize and appreciate the effort to not put words in my mouth).

Nowhere is Dav saying that certain people should be prevented from having children - only his opinion that some people should not have had children

Read my edit please, I added some content.

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 02:40 PM
When my girls were in preschool the past two years, the school had a strict no sugar policy and we sent lunch for them every day. I had several comments from their teachers that the girls always had a very balanced and nutritious lunch. My husband and I had decided before we had kids that we would budget for buying real wholesome foods with minimal or no processing. And even though there are some days that a box of mac n cheese looks really easy to fix, we don't buy it or try to get a healthier version, like Annie's or Whole Foods brands instead of Kraft. And the one time my husband did buy a box of Kraft, my kids refused to eat it because it tasted "yucky."

I really identify with the obesity in kids struggle because I've had weight issues most of my life. And I don't want my girls to have to deal with those same issues. My weight issues stem from a few different areas (hormonal imbalances make it hard for me to take weight off, sedentary lifestyle, crappy-ass genetics on both sides of my family), but the main reason the problems have developed is because we didn't have a lot of money growing up and we ate a lot of processed crap and put on a lot of extra weight. Now that I'm an adult, I'm unfortunately reaping those consequences much like the rest of my family (we are NOT small people). My parents started on Atkins this year, raising their own beef cattle, pigs, and sheep and growing most (if not all) their produce in their garden. My dad's lost 50+ pounds since March and my mom's lost 45 pounds. I'm seriously considering doing it myself, if nothing else because I'm mortified that my mom and I are pretty much the same weight now.

I breastfed both my girls until they were a year old for a host of reasons, one of which is that breastfed babies are less likely to be obese later on in life. But who I am to criticize any woman for not breastfeeding her child, even though I fully believe (and research and my own empirical evidence backs this up) that breastfeeding is healthier for a baby than formula? Some women just don't produce enough milk. Or their lifestyle doesn't allow for her to easily breastfeed. Or she just doesn't like the sensation. Or she gets an infection. Having gone through a pretty wretched ordeal where a former friend thought she knew how to raise my kids better than me and filed a false CPS report (the BS report was found COMPLETELY unfounded), I absolutely agree that most parents know what's best for their children. I've also known people who don't do right by their children (my cousins' mother, for example), but by and large, the majority of people in my acquaintance raise their kids the RIGHT WAY FOR THEM.

For example, I don't agree with our family friends who homeschool their kids, but that's their right. I keep up with her two boys on their progress and how they're doing socially, but I've known them since the oldest was 3 and she was pregnant with the youngest, so I have a vested interest in their well-being. But that still doesn't give me any right to say anything about how she chooses to raise her kids. They're not being abused or neglected, they're being educated and socialized, and they're healthy and happy. She and I have even debated the merits of homeschooling vs institutionalized education, and she knows my feelings on the subject as much as I know hers. But it's not a deal breaker by any means for our friendship or how we treat each other's kids. She has her reasons for homeschooling her kids, and I understand those reasons even if I don't choose to homeschool my kids for my own reasons.

And I need to weigh in (no pun intended) on the vaccination issue. I think there is a problem with the preservatives in some of the vaccines, but it's not the mercury issue. I think it's the preservatives the drug companies use in the live vaccines (MMR, chicken pox), namely MSG or glutamate analogues. I think autism has a genetic component that develops when certain environmental factors trigger the genes, and I firmly believe that MSG and similar preservatives are the catalyst. And because the MMR and chicken pox vaccines use MSG-based preservatives, when the kids get that poison injected into their veins, some kids with a predisposition for autism develop issues right away. One reason I think the preservatives are a viable culprit is because Merck came out with a combo MMR/varicella (chicken pox) vaccine a few years ago. The MMR vaccine has a smaller amount of preservatives (hydrolized gelatin, which is a form of glutamic acid or an MSG analogue). However, the chicken pox vaccine contains straight up MSG as well as the hydrolized gelatin, and the combo vax contains more of both compounds. The rate of febrile seizures for kids under 4 who received the ProQuad vaccine was twice that of individual MMR & chicken pox vaccines. The CDC now recommends to not give the combo vax to children under age 4 because of the risk of seizures. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5903a1.htm

So, you may ask, why do I think the link exists between the seizures and MSG? My mother has an incredible sensitivity to MSG, and she started having seizures when I was 12 or 13 whenever she would ingest any foods with MSG in them. Most of my teenaged years were spent watching my mom flop around on the couch for collectively hours a day because she had a piece of deli ham or sharp cheddar cheese. Do you know how hard it is to completely cut MSG out of your diet? She finally figured out the collective thread in her "trigger foods" was MSG. Processed meats use different forms of glutamic acid (hydrolyzed this, autolyzed that, or straight up MSG), aged cheeses develop more glutamic acid the longer they sit around (parmesan cheese has the most amount of naturally occuring MSG in any known food, twice that of soy sauce). And, even though my mom was in her 30s when she started developing her problems, she had many neurological issues crop up, some of the symptoms akin to autism or Alzheimer's. Now that she's cut the MSG completely out of her diet and is on the right meds, she will have a seizure every once in a blue moon, and her behavior and memory issues are almost completely back to normal.

So, given my mom's history of MSG-based seizures, along with her accompanying neurological issues, I had to make some decisions. We decided to do the MMR because I think the benefits of protecting from those diseases trumps the preservatives, and from what I could tell by researching it online, it has a relatively small amount. Plus, I don't let my kids have that crap in their diet, so I felt the risk was minimal. However, we are refusing the chicken pox vaccine (even though Texas started requiring it in 2006 for public school registration) because it has the hydrolized gelatin as well as straight up MSG listed on the label. I cannot in good conscience to that to my kids, knowing the family's medical history and my own thoughts on how it affects the younger kids.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Nowhere am I saying that the movie Magnolia be banned, the director shot and the actors imprisoned.

Maybe you should watch it again...

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
Well, I will go out on a limb and say that based on a random survey of approximately 31,572 children* I've met or seen, there's not one of them that I think should be having children.

*being those people that are under the age of 17.

I will say, unless the person is an acknowledged expert in a field I am trying to apply or teach to my children, I have a feeling that I'll be skeptical of the other person before I'll be skeptical of me when it comes to my child. If my own thoughts and research bear out enough of their ideas, then I would be less skeptical.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
My parents started on Atkins this year, raising their own beef cattle, pigs, and sheep and growing most (if not all) their produce in their garden. My dad's lost 50+ pounds since March and my mom's lost 45 pounds. I'm seriously considering doing it myself, if nothing else because I'm mortified that my mom and I are pretty much the same weight now.



FWIW, there are some dangerous long-term effects of the atkins diet as it essentially causes your metabolic system to shut down if you do it long enough. (Translated for Res: I believe Atkins is inherently dangerous and should be illegal)

And I need to weigh in (no pun intended) on the vaccination issue. I think there is a problem with the preservatives in some of the vaccines, but it's not the mercury issue. I think it's the preservatives the drug companies use in the live vaccines (MMR, chicken pox), namely MSG or glutamate analogues. I think autism has a genetic component that develops when certain environmental factors trigger the genes, and I firmly believe that MSG and similar preservatives are the catalyst. And because the MMR and chicken pox vaccines use MSG-based preservatives, when the kids get that poison injected into their veins, some kids with a predisposition for autism develop issues right away. One reason I think the preservatives are a viable culprit is because Merck came out with a combo MMR/varicella (chicken pox) vaccine a few years ago. The MMR vaccine has a smaller amount of preservatives (hydrolized gelatin, which is a form of glutamic acid or an MSG analogue). However, the chicken pox vaccine contains straight up MSG as well as the hydrolized gelatin. And the rate of febrile seizures for kids under 4 who received the ProQuad vaccine was twice that of individual MMR & chicken pox vaccines. The CDC now recommends to not give the combo vax to children under age 4 because of the risk of seizures. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5903a1.htm



Overall, the risk to society and the individual from not vaccinating far, far outweighs the known and proven risks of vaccinating. The one study that ever suggested that vaccines=autism was conclusively debunked as fraudalent and the researchers themselves even admitted they essentially made it up. However, you have legitimate medical concerns based on your family's history that need to be addressed. That's normal.(Translated for Res: Those who do not vaccinate should be sent to special work camps where work will set them free and where we can better provide for the current war effort).

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
Maybe you should watch it again...

I highly doubt you believe in Eugenics, but the comment is indicative in my subjective view of a bad line of thought. And it is a fact that even today breeding tests remain fashionable. And everyone says they should include someone else other than themselves.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:53 PM
So you would not include yourself in the "stupid" group? That is my problem with these statements bc invariably they (the person saying others) never mean themselves but by their reasoning others could apply the same standard that they feel makes others deficient. I once heard an art special ed teacher say that sometimes someone just needs to take a bat to the head for society. I am sure she did not mean to enforce that view but I still find the view troubling. And since you are a history major who is intelligent you should understand that people frequently do enforce those views they only thought. A psychologist could tell you that frequently people fantasize before they do what would ordinarily seem wrong.

I don't know whether this will be a surprise to you or not. MOST people have homicidal and suicidal thoughts from time to time. In and of themselves, they are not red flags. I am not a psychologist, however the same procedure is used as an assessment for all mental health care workers regardless of degree/license.

I really don't mean to come off condescending, here, Res. I honestly appreciate that homicidal/genocidal/*.cidal statements make you uncomfortable. People - outside of courtrooms, law school and a few other like venues - speak loosely and emotionally. They will say things they don't really mean, "If my fucking phone rings one more time Im gonna go postal..." Most people speak and communicate symbolically, emotionally and metaphorically most of the time. While that is a liability in the context of debate or litigation, to be able to accurately interpret and accept this mode of communication is essential for human relationship. Our right hemispheres are just as important as the left.


EDIT: Read your edit. Thank you for that story.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Maybe you should watch it again...

Go to hell. I have never in my life seen such a self-masturbatory exhibition of pseudo-symbolic horsecrap. Notice that the same guy is writer, director and executive producer. Clear indication to me that this was some first-year film school pipe dream project that got shat on and as soon as he had the cash to make it happen he controlled every aspect of bringing his purile vision to life.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 03:02 PM
Go to hell. I have never in my life seen such a self-masturbatory exhibition of pseudo-symbolic horsecrap. Notice that the same guy is writer, director and executive producer. Clear indication to me that this was some first-year film school pipe dream project that got shat on and as soon as he had the cash to make it happen he controlled every aspect of bringing his purile vision to life.

So, perhaps imprisonment is not such a bad idea...;)

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 03:05 PM
So, perhaps imprisonment is not such a bad idea...;)

Or forced artistic castration. Im ok either way,.

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 03:06 PM
Bowlwoman, I don't want your children to be guinea pigs, but I kinda do want to perform glutamate experiments on them in regards to the activation of neurological conduction genes. :D

(No, don't take me seriously, the gov't doesn't let me do any fun research in my job-but if I can get the grant on my own, could I pretty please borrow your kiddos for some mad scientist style experimentation, I promise I'll try to put them back exactly like you gave them to me!) :D

Res_Ipsa
10-19-2011, 03:13 PM
EDIT: Read your edit. Thank you for that story.

So we agree I should not take things so seriously on the internet.

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 03:13 PM
FWIW, there are some dangerous long-term effects of the atkins diet as it essentially causes your metabolic system to shut down if you do it long enough. (Translated for Res: I believe Atkins is inherently dangerous and should be illegal)

Atkins has changed over the years, and in its current incarnation it's actually closer to South Beach. My mom had the same concerns when she first looked into it, but the diet she follows now isn't really significantly different than the one I followed when I was gestational diabetic, except she doesn't have the option to include small amounts of grains or milk like I did. And I was eating for two! :)

My dad is a nurse, and he had a complete physical workup in August for his hospital's fitness challenge. For the first time in his life, ALL of his bloodwork came back normal. They checked every single system, and he was perfect. Considering my grandpa (his dad) died at age 56 from his third heart attack, the fact that my dad is now 57 and healthy as a horse is a VERY. GOOD. THING.

Overall, the risk to society and the individual from not vaccinating far, far outweighs the known and proven risks of vaccinating. The one study that ever suggested that vaccines=autism was conclusively debunked as fraudalent and the researchers themselves even admitted they essentially made it up. However, you have legitimate medical concerns based on your family's history that need to be addressed. That's normal.(Translated for Res: Those who do not vaccinate should be sent to special work camps where work will set them free and where we can better provide for the current war effort).

Which is exactly why my husband and I talked about it and decided to vaccinate. He was dead set against it until we had the first meeting with the pediatrician, and he didn't want to risk our kids with a disease that's preventable. The chicken pox vaccine is a different story, though, because chicken pox is rarely fatal and I utterly refuse to inject MSG into my kids. Nope. Ain't gonna do it.

And I think the study about autism = vaccination looked at the thimerosal component, not the other preservatives, but I may be wrong. The basis for my thoughts that MSG could contribute the autism come mainly from my experiences with my mom and the fact that many autistic kids respond well to elimination diets and start to reverse some or all of their symptoms. Other people are looking at that link as well http://www.autismangelspurse.com/Monosodium%20Glutamate%20and%20Autism%20The%20Erb% 20Theory.html.

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Bowlwoman, I don't want your children to be guinea pigs, but I kinda do want to perform glutamate experiments on them in regards to the activation of neurological conduction genes. :D

(No, don't take me seriously, the gov't doesn't let me do any fun research in my job-but if I can get the grant on my own, could I pretty please borrow your kiddos for some mad scientist style experimentation, I promise I'll try to put them back exactly like you gave them to me!) :D

I was discussing with Gil on another thread about meeting up at the Ren Fest this weekend, so if you can catch them, they're yours. :D

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 03:16 PM
Mwahahahahaha!

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 03:19 PM
So we agree I should not take things so seriously on the internet.

None of us should, myself included.

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 03:20 PM
I was discussing with Gil on another thread about meeting up at the Ren Fest this weekend, so if you can catch them, they're yours. :D

ooohhh...oooohhhh.... I have some ahh research that needs doing too. Can I have your kiddos when BB is done?

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 03:21 PM
Mwahahahahaha!

Full disclosure: my mom also has Chiari I malformation, and we think that her malformed brain may be contributing her to extreme MSG sensitivity (by allowing the MSG to possibly cross the brain/blood barrier). So, you're going to have to bring an MRI machine to see if the girls have Chiari I first to make sure your control is adequate. But then again, I took folic acid like it was candy when I was pregnant because of my mom's Chiari, so you may be out of luck. :D

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 03:21 PM
ooohhh...oooohhhh.... I have some ahh research that needs doing too. Can I have your kiddos when BB is done?

Free babysitting? And you're local. Name the time and place. :D

See? Parents know best. Here I am peddling my kids out on the Interwebz for experimental medical research. I am an AWESOME mom. /SARCASM

Ivhon
10-19-2011, 03:24 PM
Free babysitting? And you're local. Name the time and place. :D

Wait. That didn't turn out how I planned it at all...

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 03:27 PM
Wait. That didn't turn out how I planned it at all...

You'll learn as your kids get older how to get creative about securing childcare. It's an art.

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 03:56 PM
Hmmm, need an MRI. That could be rough, 'cause we may have three other folks and we only drive the one little car. Maybe I can be creative with the trunk space.

I find it sad that I actually want to do this. Where are my damn grad school apps again, I think I just found a thesis.

And now, back to your originally scheduled obesity debate...

bowlwoman
10-19-2011, 04:38 PM
I find it sad that I actually want to do this. Where are my damn grad school apps again, I think I just found a thesis.

Well, we do call JoJo a monkey, so just think of it as animal research. :D

fdsaf3
10-19-2011, 05:42 PM
I've always wanted to get a pediatrician, an epidemiologist, and a few other medical specialists in a room together and talk about why so many kids are being diagnosed with so many medical issues these days.

For reference, I'm 26. I estimate that puts me on the low end of the age scale here, but not by much.

If a kid growing up was allergic to anything, it was kind of rare. Maybe we just didn't talk about it as much, I don't know. Now it seems like kids are allergic to everything, everyone has ADD, etc. It's weird. I'm really curious if kids these days really do have more medical issues than we did growing up (and I remember my mom saying that kids in my generation had more going on than kids in her generation). I see two separate but not mutually exclusive possibilities:

1. Kids have more medical issues now than 15-ish years ago.

2. As medical science has improved our ability to diagnose and treat illness, we have now begun to over diagnose illnesses and issues in youth. (side note: probably adults too, but this thread is about children).

If 1, I'm curious to know why. If 2, I'm curious to know if we need to readjust our definitions of things. Maybe we are being too inclusive of things which fall under umbrella definitions, i.e. behavior disorders and Aspberger's.

Just throwing that out there.

The Unreasoner
10-19-2011, 05:54 PM
The hubris of that statement is astounding. That is the mistaken idea that somehow you know better or can decide for others how to live their lives.
Yet we all do it. All the time. The line is, I would think, between believing we know better (and yet allowing what we see as 'wrong' to go on anyway) and imposing that belief on others. Which is easily seen in the issue of gay rights, or in allowing corporations to fire dozens of workers.
Every parent does know best because there is no better authority than the parent
That's debatable. Who was Casey Anthony's lawyer?
I bet you would be spitting mad if some busy body came in and told you that they knew what was best for your child.
Emotions are seldom rational. I'm sure a significant proportion of the prison population is 'spitting mad' at the people who put them there.
All of that does not change my mind one bit because it is dangerous to head down that road.
Or it goes to Utopia, depending on who you ask. Not me, certainly, but I'm sure there are some who think that. But what if those people honestly believe that their view is the objective Right? Should they seek to make it a reality?
He's right wing...you cannot use his own exact words to hang him by his petard.
Certainly, one could take the Res of this thread and set him against the Res of a gay rights thread and get a somewhat coherent debate. Refusing to regulate procreation rights seems to allow the right to not procreate. Which I could have sworn was the foundation of Res's position against gay rights.
So you support a concept but do not take it to its logical end? My views, I have taken them to their logical course.
There is nothing wrong with this. I just hope you honestly believe that they are The Way Things Ought To Be.
Otherwise you are just spouting off like Gonzo. More to the point, what you are articulating is very fashionable to say, and it is dangerous. But even if it is just an opinion shouldn't it be based on something? Can you not support it?
It's been a while since I watched CSPAN, but if I remember correctly, even the guys making the laws can just spew shit if they want (and of course Herman Cain: #IDontHaveTheFactsToBackThisUp). And an unfiltered spout like Gonzo may at times be a nuissance, but by its nature can often make significant points not considered before.So I should be allowed to murder people?
*Reads the thread again, as this either came out of nowhere or will be very entertaining*
"Lots of moviegoers likely never should have seen 'Magnolia'"
You sir, are obviously a latte-drinking, volvo-driving, elitist...person of taste. Or maybe you just demand more respect for story structure. Whatever.
Again, you simply refuse or simply cannot understand my opinion. The difference between having an opinion and wanting to FORCE it on others is significant.
It is. In fact, attempting to impose one's opinions on others...well, the hubris of that action would be astounding. But, (something Res seems to periodically overlook/focus on) is that there are some objective rights and wrongs. It's why we have laws. And physics. And I have no problem attempting to stop people from going against such things.The entire history of the world and humanity has shown this to be true...a majority of people in general are fairly stupid.
Maybe it's only because I'm a human supremacist, but even if this is true, I'm not sure it is a bad thing. Anyway, 'people' can be dumb, but 'persons' are usually clever enough.
I believe Atkins is inherently dangerous and should be illegal
You might be joking, but I'd run with that. Let's throw veganism in there too.
Overall, the risk to society and the individual from not vaccinating far, far outweighs the known and proven risks of vaccinating. The one study that ever suggested that vaccines=autism was conclusively debunked as fraudalent and the researchers themselves even admitted they essentially made it up. However, you have legitimate medical concerns based on your family's history that need to be addressed. That's normal.(Translated for Res: Those who do not vaccinate should be sent to special work camps where work will set them free and where we can better provide for the current war effort).
This may be an unusual example. People with compromised immune systems often cannot get vaccinated themselves (I think that was what you were alluding to). So, a person who willfully goes without vaccination (or witholds it from those in his care) is threatening the health of others.

On the HPV vaccine specifically, I wonder why no one brought up the fact that the girls are (even if they are given a sort of 'license to fornicate') being protected from some possible results of rape. Is Michelle Bachmann pro-rapist rights to inflict as much damage as possible? (I realize rape is bad enough, even without disease and/or pregnancy, but still.)
[QUOTE=Res_Ipsa;166183]even today breeding tests remain fashionable.
They're also smart. If you're talking about what I think you are. Who knows what sort of genetic timebomb two lovebirds could create?

[i]in all seriousness, a friend of mine is the adopted son of a couple who lost their biological son to some genetic disease recessive in both of them. It was a 1:1000000 thing, but I think the cost/benefit analysis of such tests makes them desirable. No one wants to go through losing a child.
I've always wanted to get a pediatrician, an epidemiologist, and a few other medical specialists in a room together and talk about why so many kids are being diagnosed with so many medical issues these days.
Some of it is a sort of scapegoat for 'my kid isn't perfect' I think. Although we are also getting better at diagnosing some things, so we catch some real things more efficiently too. For allergies specifically, I think I heard something about 'the effect of clean living.' Iirc, clean living naturally leads to not being exposed to certain things, and so the body never learns how to 'deal with' things like peanuts or whatever.

It's a good question.

fdsaf3
10-19-2011, 05:56 PM
It kind of sounds like the start of a bad joke: an epidemiologist, pediatrician, and heart surgeon walk into a bar.....

Zaela Sedai
10-19-2011, 06:25 PM
I personally love the over diagnosis and then blaming it on vaccines... It's ok though because the rest of us who do vaccinate our children will protect yours...:rolleyes:


That being said, I miss the days of mass chicken pox infestation parties, all kids should have to go through that, but I digress.

Sei'taer
10-19-2011, 06:45 PM
That being said, I miss the days of mass chicken pox infestation parties, all kids should have to go through that, but I digress.

It's funny, I'm 41, I've been exposed to chicken pox many times, as an adult and as a child. I was the primary caregiver for two of my kids who had chicken pox and I've never had chicken pox. My two youngest got the vaccine, my daughter because Rett Syndrome and chicken pox don't mix well and my son because he had to have it for school. The doctors ask me all the time if I want the vaccine but I pass on it. Just don't see the sense in wasting one if I'm not going to get it anyway.

Davian93
10-19-2011, 06:48 PM
I've had chicken pox and shingles...shingles sucked.


I agree with Zae on herd immunity. All the people that opt out don't get how important herd immunity is for those that medically can't get vaccinations. There is no reason on earth we should be having whooping cough outbreaks in this day and age.

Bryan Blaire
10-19-2011, 09:36 PM
throw veganism in there too
I swear I thought you wrote something else instead of veganism in there, and I became very sad for a bit. :D

Just goes to show ya where my brain goes. :D

Basel Gill
10-19-2011, 09:47 PM
Potatoes dont cause obesity...eating more calories than you burn causes weight gain, nothing else. Its BS to attack carbs as bad. The potato is a perfectly healthy food if you eat it right...the skin of a potato has a ton of good things in it.

Also, a large part of childhood obesity has to do with a lack of physical activity both in school and at home. Parents need to take responsibility instead of blaming it on school lunches.

How incredibly...conservative of you. ;)

Khoram
10-19-2011, 10:46 PM
For reference, I'm 26. I estimate that puts me on the low end of the age scale here, but not by much.

If a kid growing up was allergic to anything, it was kind of rare. Maybe we just didn't talk about it as much, I don't know. Now it seems like kids are allergic to everything, everyone has ADD, etc. It's weird. I'm really curious if kids these days really do have more medical issues than we did growing up (and I remember my mom saying that kids in my generation had more going on than kids in her generation). I see two separate but not mutually exclusive possibilities:

1. Kids have more medical issues now than 15-ish years ago.

2. As medical science has improved our ability to diagnose and treat illness, we have now begun to over diagnose illnesses and issues in youth. (side note: probably adults too, but this thread is about children).

If 1, I'm curious to know why. If 2, I'm curious to know if we need to readjust our definitions of things. Maybe we are being too inclusive of things which fall under umbrella definitions, i.e. behavior disorders and Aspberger's.

Just throwing that out there.

Well, I'm 20, so I'm probably the youngest of the group - unless we have some really young members on this site.

What I can tell you is that I've noticed the same thing - I barely get sick anymore cause I've already been exposed to nearly everything a kid can get exposed to - I have friends, however, that are allergic to pretty much anything you can think of, from peanuts to milk to ragweed (which, pretty much everybody's allergic to ;)).

I find that we don't so much over-diagnose people, but that we think that cleanliness is godliness. It's nice to be clean, but being overly clean allows the bacteria to build up defenses to what we're using to kill them in the first place. I think that society nowadays is too concerned over how clean somebody or something is - it's almost like Bill Murray's character, Bobby Wiley, in "What About Bob?", who's obsessive-compulsive about everything -particularly cleanliness. We've become trapped in this never-ending cycle of "Clean".

Now, I know for a fact that when I do have kids, they won't be getting vaccines left, right and center - I'll let them go through chicken pox (cause I'm EVIL, I tells ya!) but they'll get the most important ones - I just have to think of which ones. ;)

Oh, and kids these days don't play outside as much, in the mud and leaf piles, so they aren't exposed to that kind of filth, which is why they suffer more from allergies and the like.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 06:44 AM
I find that we don't so much over-diagnose people, but that we think that cleanliness is godliness. It's nice to be clean, but being overly clean allows the bacteria to build up defenses to what we're using to kill them in the first place. I think that society nowadays is too concerned over how clean somebody or something is - it's almost like Bill Murray's character, Bobby Wiley, in "What About Bob?", who's obsessive-compulsive about everything -particularly cleanliness. We've become trapped in this never-ending cycle of "Clean".

...

Oh, and kids these days don't play outside as much, in the mud and leaf piles, so they aren't exposed to that kind of filth, which is why they suffer more from allergies and the like.

I'm friends with our kids' pediatrician (friend of a friend who turned into my own friend) and we have kids the same age, so we're around each other's kids for birthday parties, play dates, etc. We had them over for dinner one night, and the kids were playing in the backyard. Meredith (my oldest, who was 3 at the time) took a huge handful of dirt and leaves and cedar needles and sand and random chunks of sidewalk chalk and crammed it into her mouth right in front of the pediatrician. I was mortified and got her to spit it out and said I was really sorry to the doctor. She told me it was actually good for kids to eat a bit of dirt now and then because they're doing studies that prove that "too clean" kids have many more problems later on. She said that researchers now believe (and have several studies under their belts) that link too clean intestines to Crohn's disease. Basically, the kids need some grit and dirt every once in a while to keep the body in balance in terms of allergies and apparently good intestinal health. So, while I don't actively encourage my kids to go out and eat mudpies, I don't freak out about it now if they do.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 06:47 AM
It's funny, I'm 41, I've been exposed to chicken pox many times, as an adult and as a child. I was the primary caregiver for two of my kids who had chicken pox and I've never had chicken pox. My two youngest got the vaccine, my daughter because Rett Syndrome and chicken pox don't mix well and my son because he had to have it for school. The doctors ask me all the time if I want the vaccine but I pass on it. Just don't see the sense in wasting one if I'm not going to get it anyway.

I got it in 5th grade, but I had such a light case of it that I'm almost worried that I'll get it again. I got sick on a Sunday night and was back in school on Friday morning. My sister was in 2nd grade and was out for a week and a half, and my brother who was in Kindergarten was out for full 2 weeks.

Maybe my light case was just like getting a bigger dose of a vaccine and I'll be okay if and when I get exposed again. And it was free. :D

Davian93
10-20-2011, 07:53 AM
I got it in 5th grade, but I had such a light case of it that I'm almost worried that I'll get it again. I got sick on a Sunday night and was back in school on Friday morning. My sister was in 2nd grade and was out for a week and a half, and my brother who was in Kindergarten was out for full 2 weeks.

Maybe my light case was just like getting a bigger dose of a vaccine and I'll be okay if and when I get exposed again. And it was free. :D

Chicken Pox=Itchy and annoying
Shingles (typical 2nd go round)=painful, very painful. I also remember Camel getting it at some point and his description was pretty similar...though I think his case was far more severe than mine.

Khoram
10-20-2011, 09:32 AM
I'm friends with our kids' pediatrician (friend of a friend who turned into my own friend) and we have kids the same age, so we're around each other's kids for birthday parties, play dates, etc. We had them over for dinner one night, and the kids were playing in the backyard. Meredith (my oldest, who was 3 at the time) took a huge handful of dirt and leaves and cedar needles and sand and random chunks of sidewalk chalk and crammed it into her mouth right in front of the pediatrician. I was mortified and got her to spit it out and said I was really sorry to the doctor. She told me it was actually good for kids to eat a bit of dirt now and then because they're doing studies that prove that "too clean" kids have many more problems later on. She said that researchers now believe (and have several studies under their belts) that link too clean intestines to Crohn's disease. Basically, the kids need some grit and dirt every once in a while to keep the body in balance in terms of allergies and apparently good intestinal health. So, while I don't actively encourage my kids to go out and eat mudpies, I don't freak out about it now if they do.

That's what ALL kids should be doing these days - playing outside and eating mudpies instead of playing video games. Leave the video games to the adults :D - or at least to the teens.

Granted, it's gross, but if there are bugs in said mudpies, you can also expect them to get a healthy dose of added protein, which is always good (bugs also happen to be quite rich in protein). XD


Oh, and my dad got the chicken pox when he was 19 - not fun. Supposedly, it's dangerous to catch the chicken pox when you're older, but I wouldn't know - I've already gone through them years and years ago. :D

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 10:03 AM
I'd like to point out that sometimes, allergies and the link to an overly clean environment is a load of horseshit.

I'm allergic to just about everything organic you can be allergic to and a few chemical compounds I shouldn't be allergic to. And it's not because I was a sheltered, sterilized child.

Sometimes, your immune system just gets shit bassackwards. Or you're of Scandinavian descent and have a high probability of developing and an auto-immune disorder and this is the form your body chose. Kinda like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 10:08 AM
As an aside, I want to say that I consider it very interesting that the American Senate apparently has nothing better to do than start a campaign against childhood and in favor of obesity. Not many national parliaments would have the guts to do that.

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Heh, Gonzo, they like to play with so much more petty things than that... Hence part of my sig. However, the American public just keeps electing the same people because "My Congressman or Senator can't be part of the problem!"

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 11:44 AM
I'd like to point out that sometimes, allergies and the link to an overly clean environment is a load of horseshit.

I'm allergic to just about everything organic you can be allergic to and a few chemical compounds I shouldn't be allergic to. And it's not because I was a sheltered, sterilized child.

Sometimes, your immune system just gets shit bassackwards. Or you're of Scandinavian descent and have a high probability of developing and an auto-immune disorder and this is the form your body chose. Kinda like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

Sorry dear, we've had that conversation before: for the great majority, allegic reactions tend to develop due to a lack of exposure or an over-exposure to allergens. It's not horse-poo poo. ;)

It's also not an auto-immune disorder, because it isn't attacking self cells, it is a reaction to non-self. Allergies can be linked to an over-active immune system that is due to a genetic relationship with a person with an auto-immune disease, but it is not itself an auto-immune response/disorder.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 11:50 AM
I have to congratulate us on keeping this thread more or less on topic. Now, we have devolved from talking about the harmful potato to eating dirt, but maybe if more kids ate dirt and stayed away from the potatoes the problem would just go away organically. :D

Or maybe they should stop washing the potatoes and kill two birds with one stone.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:51 AM
Sorry dear, we've had that conversation before: for the great majority, allegic reactions tend to develop due to a lack of exposure or an over-exposure to allergens. It's not horse-poo poo. ;)

It's also not an auto-immune disorder, because it isn't attacking self cells, it is a reaction to non-self. Allergies can be linked to an over-active immune system that is due to a genetic relationship with a person with an auto-immune disease, but it is not itself an auto-immune response/disorder.

Fine, whatever, Mr. Biologist. :P

It's still not always true.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 11:52 AM
I have to congratulate us on keeping this thread more or less on topic. Now, we have devolved from talking about the harmful potato to eating dirt, but maybe if more kids ate dirt and stayed away from the potatoes the problem would just go away organically. :D

Or maybe they should stop washing the potatoes and kill two birds with one stone.

You know... I was just going to suggest that last bit... LOL

Davian93
10-20-2011, 11:52 AM
I have to congratulate us on keeping this thread more or less on topic. Now, we have devolved from talking about the harmful potato to eating dirt, but maybe if more kids ate dirt and stayed away from the potatoes the problem would just go away organically. :D

Or maybe they should stop washing the potatoes and kill two birds with one stone.

I think we've hit on the solution.

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 11:58 AM
Just don't eat the ones that have encysted nematodes and you're good. The nematodes likely wouldn't hurt you at all, but honestly, things good get whacky and then explode.

Next time I'm bringing my immunology texts to work. :D

Ivhon
10-20-2011, 12:06 PM
I have to congratulate us on keeping this thread more or less on topic. Now, we have devolved from talking about the harmful potato to eating dirt, but maybe if more kids ate dirt and stayed away from the potatoes the problem would just go away organically. :D

Or maybe they should stop washing the potatoes and kill two birds with one stone.

potatoes grow in dirt.

Just felt that needed to be pointed out.

Khoram
10-20-2011, 12:10 PM
potatoes grow in dirt.

Just felt that needed to be pointed out.

Do you wash your potatoes before eating them, though?

I'll let you guys know how dirty potatoes taste ;) I'm the youngest; ergo, I have the best chances of surviving if anything bad were to happen. :D

*knock on wood*

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 12:13 PM
potatoes grow in dirt.

Just felt that needed to be pointed out.

Well, yeah. That's the whole point of not washing them. They get the potatoes AND the dirt in one fell swoop.

Ivhon
10-20-2011, 12:14 PM
Do you wash your potatoes before eating them, though?


No. Not beyond what the store does.

I have actually always had a decent amount of dirt in my diet. I have always lived by the 5 second rule and frequently have lightly or unwashed vegetables.

For the record, I have no allergies and rarely get sick. One story does not a correlation make, of course.

Khoram
10-20-2011, 12:21 PM
No. Not beyond what the store does.

I have actually always had a decent amount of dirt in my diet. I have always lived by the 5 second rule and frequently have lightly or unwashed vegetables.

For the record, I have no allergies and rarely get sick. One story does not a correlation make, of course.

And yet... :rolleyes:

Same here - I tend to rinse the vegetables and fruit that I eat - nothing more. I've never *knock on wood (again)* gotten sick from something I ate. Lucky me. :D

Davian93
10-20-2011, 12:24 PM
No. Not beyond what the store does.

I have actually always had a decent amount of dirt in my diet. I have always lived by the 5 second rule and frequently have lightly or unwashed vegetables.

For the record, I have no allergies and rarely get sick. One story does not a correlation make, of course.

Unless I know the source, I rinse everything for a good 10-15 sec...just enough to clean off the worst of the worst...especially if its pesticide-covered veggies.

From organic farmstands in my local area and if I know the grower, I dont worry so much. I've found that in the summer, we buy 90% of our produce/vegetables for local sources that we know.

Juan
10-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Why waste your time with fruits and vegetables? Just go straight to the source: dirt.

http://youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=xnFzdx2HUZ0

Watch that, it's freaking hilarious.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Bad mommy or proving a point?

I am currently making lunch for me and the girls. Frozen fish sticks and fries. Now, the fish sticks are premium tilapia filets with panko breading and no real preservatives to speak of and the fries are organic roasted red potato wedges with skin. Both are oven baked and not further fried. I have homemade tarter sauce made with organic ingredients, canola mayo, and homemade pickle relish (canned by me last year).

I'm also serving organic carrot sticks and organic broccoli florets (ranch dip optional -- I was going to make hummus, but I'm out of cumin) with organic red grapes for dessert.

The cost of my meal is possibly an additional $.50 beyond what the typical school kid would eat should all prices be adjusted for wholesale/retail comparison, but it's also feeding three people. And the quality is going to be so much better than the processed crap.

Yesterday we had Frito pie for lunch. Hubby brought home a bag of fritos (no preservatives or soy oil), and I threw together a quick and dirty chili. Top with sprinkled aged cheddar, and it was so yummy. It cost about the same as a Frito pie from Sonic would cost, but the comparison stops there. It was SO good.

Yes, I have some processed foods for lunch. But they are as unprocessed as I can get and still have a quick and nutritious lunch. And with two kiddos under 5, that's a feat, let me tell you.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 12:47 PM
Processed food is not bad in and of itself. Its only bad if its all they ever eat and they never exercise enough to burn off the calories.


Mmm...fish sticks.


On the tilapia, be wary of the source...apparently chinese raised tilapia has all sorts of terrible chemicals in it. I know a guy in the Tilapia industry and he gave me that heads up once.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 12:49 PM
On the tilapia, be wary of the source...apparently chinese raised tilapia has all sorts of terrible chemicals in it. I know a guy in the Tilapia industry and he gave me that heads up once.

Good to know. I'll check the packaging.

ETA: no info on the packaging, so I looked on Gorton's website. No info there either. So, I called their HQ. Very nice lady read me a script about how wonderful their products are, but she did look up the product and confirmed that the fisheries are in and the processing is done in China. So, looks like I'll be paying more for the Whole Food's brand fish sticks, or else I'll just buy some fresh fish and bread/bake my own.

I knew buying conventional always bites me in the ass. I'm not an organic food nazi, but I'm quickly heading down that path.

Khoram
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
Processed food is not bad in and of itself. Its only bad if its all they ever eat and they never exercise enough to burn off the calories.


Mmm...fish sticks.


On the tilapia, be wary of the source...apparently chinese raised tilapia has all sorts of terrible chemicals in it. I know a guy in the Tilapia industry and he gave me that heads up once.

Do you just know everybody, Dav? It seems to me that you do. :D

This thread coupled with my German class, where we're learning foods, is making me really hungry. I want fish sticks now, and I don't know if we have any back home. :(

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
Also, be wary of just going by the organic label... It doesn't necessarily mean no pesticides, or even reduced pesticides, just non-synthetic... However, while the regs are getting better and I'm re-reading them right now, there is both a list of allowed synthetics for use on organic food and you used to be able to use pesticides that were derived from organic sources, but produced synthetically. There are still residue requirements, obviously, and while it does get you away from completely synthetically derived pesticides, it doesn't make them pesticide free, so you should still clean them up some.

Also, everyone should always take good care when selecting and using really leafy veggies, such as spinach and varieties of lettuce, because they are common hosts for slugs and snails. These leave behind slime trails that do not wash off by simple 15 second rinsings and can still harbor microorganisms, which could give you nasty diseases (such as stuff that affects the brain). Luckily most of this is foreign source, and USDA or CBP inspectors generally get to reject shipments that harbor mollusks that carry that stuff, but it isn't always fool proof, so just take a quick look for slime trails on leafy veggies. If you find them, just toss the contaminated stuff.

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 01:31 PM
Also, be wary of just going by the organic label... It doesn't necessarily mean no pesticides, or even reduced pesticides, just non-synthetic... However, while the regs are getting better and I'm re-reading them right now, there is both a list of allowed synthetics for use on organic food and you used to be able to use pesticides that were derived from organic sources, but produced synthetically. There are still residue requirements, obviously, and while it does get you away from completely synthetically derived pesticides, it doesn't make them pesticide free, so you should still clean them up some.

Also, everyone should always take good care when selecting and using really leafy veggies, such as spinach and varieties of lettuce, because they are common hosts for slugs and snails. These leave behind slime trails that do not wash off by simple 15 second rinsings and can still harbor microorganisms, which could give you nasty diseases (such as stuff that affects the brain). Luckily most of this is foreign source, and USDA or CBP inspectors generally get to reject shipments that harbor mollusks that carry that stuff, but it isn't always fool proof, so just take a quick look for slime trails on leafy veggies. If you find them, just toss the contaminated stuff.

There's also the small fact that in some places leafy veggies are irrigated with waste water. good for the plants, bad for us.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 01:54 PM
In my part of VT, "organic" truly means no pesticides. I'm talking about from local producers, not "organic" at the supermarket...which is just a money grab.

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 02:05 PM
Fine, whatever, Mr. Biologist. :P

It's still not always true.

Yes. My part-Scandinavian brother wasn't sheltered as a child, and he's allergic to a lot of stuff too. Indeed, we had many cats and dogs growing up, and he's allergic to both. He has dust mite allergies, and he never cleaned his room.

Regarding the "overdiagnosis" issue, I'll just say that my teachers wanted to medicate me for ADD when I was a kid. My parents refused because (a) they didn't think I needed it, and (b) we knew another kid who was a medicated zombie. Now my son has it, and takes some meds during the school day. One of my nephews also has been diagnosed and medicated.

Anecdotes ahoy!

Davian93
10-20-2011, 02:21 PM
Yes. My part-Scandinavian brother wasn't sheltered as a child, and he's allergic to a lot of stuff too. Indeed, we had many cats and dogs growing up, and he's allergic to both. He has dust mite allergies, and he never cleaned his room.

Regarding the "overdiagnosis" issue, I'll just say that my teachers wanted to medicate me for ADD when I was a kid. My parents refused because (a) they didn't think I needed it, and (b) we knew another kid who was a medicated zombie. Now my son has it, and takes some meds during the school day. One of my nephews also has been diagnosed and medicated.

Anecdotes ahoy!


Yeah, my teachers wanted to medicate me for ADD too but luckily my parents were far too smart to-

SQUIRREL!!!!!!!!!

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Yes. My part-Scandinavian brother wasn't sheltered as a child, and he's allergic to a lot of stuff too. Indeed, we had many cats and dogs growing up, and he's allergic to both. He has dust mite allergies, and he never cleaned his room.

Regarding the "overdiagnosis" issue, I'll just say that my teachers wanted to medicate me for ADD when I was a kid. My parents refused because (a) they didn't think I needed it, and (b) we knew another kid who was a medicated zombie. Now my son has it, and takes some meds during the school day. One of my nephews also has been diagnosed and medicated.

Anecdotes ahoy!
In that situation, SDog, since you said many cats and dogs and never cleaned his room, he probably actually developed them early due to over-exposure. However, a Scandinavia family line doesn't automatically mean it, but there are some indicators that there's a pre-disposition to all immune issues in a lot of those lines, including things like allergies (hypersensitivity syndromes), asthma (both internal triggered and external triggered), and serious auto-immune disorders.

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 02:32 PM
In my part of VT, "organic" truly means no pesticides. I'm talking about from local producers, not "organic" at the supermarket...which is just a money grab.

I'm talking about the specifically federally regulated Organic label you would see at a market like Whole Foods or HEB Central Market. Obviously there are going to be variations throughout the country as some states may have more restrictive Organic label requirements, and the closer to the source you can buy, the more you can assure yourself of the veracity of the "No" whatever you don't want claims.

I would still look for slime trails and not just wash for a few seconds...

Davian93
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm talking about the specifically federally regulated Organic label you would see at a market like Whole Foods or HEB Central Market. Obviously there are going to be variations throughout the country as some states may have more restrictive Organic label requirements, and the closer to the source you can buy, the more you can assure yourself of the veracity of the "No" whatever you don't want claims.

I would still look for slime trails and not just wash for a few seconds...

I'm a bit more careful with lettuce type veggies than I would be with carrots/potatoes/apples.

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 03:06 PM
I'm a bit more careful with lettuce type veggies than I would be with carrots/potatoes/apples.

Cool.

Maybe this safety officer thing has now gone too far. It has affected my Interwebz.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
Cool.

Maybe this safety officer thing has now gone too far. It has affected my Interwebz.

We can talk about security adjudication and emergency management if you'd like...

Khoram
10-20-2011, 03:20 PM
I'm a bit more careful with lettuce type veggies than I would be with carrots/potatoes/apples.

Granted, finding a slug on your apple wouldn't be very pleasant, now would it? :D

Same here - we generally go through the leaves of lettuce or baby spinach right before putting them in the bowl. It isn't nice to find said slimy leaves every once in a while. :(

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 03:30 PM
We can talk about security adjudication and emergency management if you'd like...

No way, I'm already an emergency responder and will probably start as one of our emergency management team members this year. No security, thanks.

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 03:31 PM
Granted, finding a slug on your apple wouldn't be very pleasant, now would it? :D

It'd be a whole lot weirder finding the slug in the apple. :D

Khoram
10-20-2011, 03:41 PM
It'd be a whole lot weirder finding the slug in the apple. :D

Slug, yes. Worm? No. ;)

I don't really want to eat any apples anytime soon, now. *blegh*

Gilshalos Sedai
10-20-2011, 03:46 PM
So long as it's not half of one...

Crispin's Crispian
10-20-2011, 04:11 PM
In that situation, SDog, since you said many cats and dogs and never cleaned his room, he probably actually developed them early due to over-exposure. However, a Scandinavia family line doesn't automatically mean it, but there are some indicators that there's a pre-disposition to all immune issues in a lot of those lines, including things like allergies (hypersensitivity syndromes), asthma (both internal triggered and external triggered), and serious auto-immune disorders.

I don't pretend to be a doctor, and I'm aware that Scandinavian blood != allergies. ;) However, my brother does also have asthma, and had it from the time he was very young. I lucked out and do not have asthma and have very few allergies. I also grew up with cats and dogs and didn't clean my room.

It's just interesting, is all. I hadn't heard the Viking connection until Gil brought it up. My brother might not be such a proud Norwegian if he knew that...

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 04:20 PM
And oddly enough, it may go hand in hand with the apparent immunity to HIV because of a more common lack of a cell surface marker required (in all known current strains) by HIV to perform its ingress into cells. I haven't heard of any actual substantiation by medical testing of the connection though, it's still in the hypothesis or maybe on going testing stages.

Who knows.

Now where's the "Don't want no fat kids in America" conversation at? :D

Khoram
10-20-2011, 04:25 PM
Now where's the "Don't want no fat kids in America" conversation at? :D

All those "fat kids in America" means that the rest of the world's kids are thinner, which is nice*. Thanks for sacrificing yourselves (well, your kids), you guys! :D

Leave them there, then - that way they won't eat what's left in the other countries. Then we'd really have a food shortage! :eek:
*depending on what part of the world you're in, mind you. ;)

Bryan Blaire
10-20-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't pretend to be a doctor

I do, but only on TV! :D

The Unreasoner
10-20-2011, 05:20 PM
Also, be wary of just going by the organic label... It doesn't necessarily mean no pesticides, or even reduced pesticides, just non-synthetic
It is possible to grow 'true' organic vegetables that are also pretty shitty (bland/aesthetically deformed/diseased).

Maybe non-organic food is like taking a class pass/fail. It's easier to pass, but it's worth less. Going letter-grade/organic doesn't mean you won't get a D though.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 05:54 PM
There's a list of foods that I refuse to buy if it's not organic because the conventional growing methods/pesticides are bad news. Not saying the organic ones don't use chemicals, but at least those are more tolerable.

The list includes:
strawberries
potatoes
apples
grapes
dairy*
most vegetables in general if I have an organic option

*We actually get raw whole milk from a localish dairy, but we do buy other dairy products at the grocery store. It depends on the food if I buy it organic or not. Cheese and yogurt I'm not so concerned about it being organic, but I do make sure that the milk is rBGH and antibiotic free. However, I do buy organic butter and half and half, and if I buy yogurt other than whole Greek yogurt (which we sub 1:1 for sour cream), then I try to get organic if possible.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 06:13 PM
Raw milk is a big craze right now. I drank it growing up but I'm lactose intolerant so I dont drink a ton of milk anymore...if I do, its Lactaid or another similar lactose-free milk.

The major danger with raw milk is if the cows are sick or if your local farmer isn't up on his sanitation and cleanliness. Some of those bacterias aren't things to mess with.

Basically...KNOW YOUR SOURCE.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Basically...KNOW YOUR SOURCE.

We do. It's a local dairy that directly delivers to the milk drop not far from me. They're licensed by the state and have their milk tested every other day. They've never had any adverse effects from anyone drinking their milk. Also, our pediatrician knows and we have her cell number (that whole friend thing) in case anything does happen to the girls after hours.

Davian93
10-20-2011, 07:58 PM
We do. It's a local dairy that directly delivers to the milk drop not far from me. They're licensed by the state and have their milk tested every other day. They've never had any adverse effects from anyone drinking their milk. Also, our pediatrician knows and we have her cell number (that whole friend thing) in case anything does happen to the girls after hours.

I was more pontificating in general than directing it at you...you very clearly know what you're doing with it.

bowlwoman
10-20-2011, 08:03 PM
I was more pontificating in general than directing it at you...you very clearly know what you're doing with it.

Gracias. :) Yes, in general you have to know your source. That's why I'm happy we have a source in our area that delivers to us locally. It's $7 a gallon, but I pay $5.50 for Central Market or Whole Foods brand organic, and we don't drink NEARLY as much of the raw as we do the pasteurized organic. The dairy has Jersey cows, very similar to Guernsey cattle.

And bringing raw milk back full circle to the fat kids/autism discussion: A2 milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A2_milk)

Davian93
10-20-2011, 08:15 PM
Gracias. :) Yes, in general you have to know your source. That's why I'm happy we have a source in our area that delivers to us locally. It's $7 a gallon, but I pay $5.50 for Central Market or Whole Foods brand organic, and we don't drink NEARLY as much of the raw as we do the pasteurized organic. The dairy has Jersey cows, very similar to Guernsey cattle.

And bringing raw milk back full circle to the fat kids/autism discussion: A2 milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A2_milk)

Jerseys produce very rich and tasty milk...much better than your standard holstein...great for cheese and butter too.

Ishara
10-20-2011, 09:29 PM
Raw milk is a big craze right now. I drank it growing up but I'm lactose intolerant so I dont drink a ton of milk anymore...if I do, its Lactaid or another similar lactose-free milk.

The major danger with raw milk is if the cows are sick or if your local farmer isn't up on his sanitation and cleanliness. Some of those bacterias aren't things to mess with.

Basically...KNOW YOUR SOURCE.

Um, we pasteurize milk for a really good reason, don't we? Drinking raw milk smacks of not vaccinating your kids to me...am I wrong?

There's a man here in Ontario who has had numerous run-ins with the provincial police and is currently on a hunger strike about raw milk. He's a dairy farmer and has been trying to sell it for years, and arrested because it's illegal here.

Globe and Mail article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario/ontario-court-rules-against-raw-milk-farmer/article2183777/)

Ontario court rules against raw milk farmer

The future of Canada’s most prominent raw milk advocate has turned sour.

Dairyman Michael Schmidt was found guilty of 15 out of 19 charges related to distributing unpasteurized milk from his farm in Durham, Ont. The verdict, written by Mr. Justice Peter Tetley of the Ontario Court of Justice, reverses a decision made last year by a justice of the peace, who acquitted Mr. Schmidt of the same charges.

It is unclear what the decision means for the future of Mr. Schmidt’s farm, a cow-share operation in which raw milk and related products are provided to about 150 shareholders. Raw milk from the farm is not sold commercially.

Mr. Schmidt has continued his business throughout his legal battle with health authorities, which began in earnest in 2006. Still, his rural property has seen several raids. For now, the German-born agriculturalist said he plans to appeal the decision – and keep milking.

“It’s a call to arms,” he said of the guilty verdict. “Now we know, there’s a lot ahead of us to fight.”

Indeed, Mr. Schmidt’s legal battle now spans two provinces. Earlier this week, he was served with contempt of court charges that threaten a $55,000 fine. They stem from his involvement in Our Cows Inc., a Chilliwack, B.C. cow share that authorities attempted to shut down last year. Operator Alice Jongerden was charged with contempt for distributing raw milk, considered a hazardous substance under provincial health laws; Mr. Schmidt stepped in and figured out how to keep milk flowing to members by relabelling products as cosmetics “not for human consumption.”

The move was a reflection of Mr. Schmidt’s mastery of unearthing legal loopholes that allow consumers to obtain raw milk without violating the law. He and his members argue their fight with health authorities is, in essence, about civil liberties – the right to consume whichever food products they choose.

“Should people have the right to put their cow with a farmer who milks it for them so they can have their own milk? That is the core question here,” Mr. Schmidt said.

Raw milk advocates await the final answer.

Zaela Sedai
10-20-2011, 10:16 PM
Just the statement

"We have the doctors cell number..." makes me think, then why the hell would you even bother. Not to mention thinking about raw milk just makes my gag reflex go haywire. I had a good friend with a dairy farm and that shite was nasty, I never could bring myself to actually swallow it... (har...har)

That being said, I know you know what works for you and yours ;)

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2011, 02:32 AM
The move was a reflection of Mr. Schmidt’s mastery of unearthing legal loopholes that allow consumers to obtain raw milk without violating the law. He and his members argue their fight with health authorities is, in essence, about civil liberties – the right to consume whichever food products they choose.If people had that right, then the War on Drugs would've been finished long ago.

Davian93
10-21-2011, 07:47 AM
Um, we pasteurize milk for a really good reason, don't we?

We pasteurize overall because not every farmer (or his/her cows) is clean and healthy. Farmers notoriously cut corners to save money so they'll not clean the milking equipment or not clean the barn or just be slobs in general. Pasteurization cuts down on worries resulting from such practices by legally ensuring that any potential dangerous bacteria is killed. If you have a good, safe source of raw milk that you trust, the dangers are minimal. Its just when you look at is as an industry wide issue that it becomes a worry.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-21-2011, 08:31 AM
Just the statement

"We have the doctors cell number..." makes me think, then why the hell would you even bother. Not to mention thinking about raw milk just makes my gag reflex go haywire. I had a good friend with a dairy farm and that shite was nasty, I never could bring myself to actually swallow it... (har...har)

you know what's truly revolting? raw goat's milk. Even more revolting is being forced to drink it because supposedly it´s "good for your asthma". Thank god I developed lactose intolerance... about the same time I got rid of the asthma actually, weirdly enough. probably the fault here for both of these occurrences was puberty.

as for organic, it makes sense if you either know exactly where it's coming from or you know the rules by which the company selling it is defining "organic". As for me and organic, I always always always buy free-range eggs.

Davian93
10-21-2011, 09:13 AM
Buy eggs? Hell, I usually give them away.

Bryan Blaire
10-21-2011, 09:25 AM
Buy eggs? Hell, I usually give them away.

Keep that up and you might be about to become a world wide supplier... ;)

Res_Ipsa
10-21-2011, 11:16 AM
you know what's truly revolting? raw goat's milk. Even more revolting is being forced to drink it because supposedly it´s "good for your asthma". Thank god I developed lactose intolerance... about the same time I got rid of the asthma actually, weirdly enough. probably the fault here for both of these occurrences was puberty.

as for organic, it makes sense if you either know exactly where it's coming from or you know the rules by which the company selling it is defining "organic". As for me and organic, I always always always buy free-range eggs.

Elayne shares your revolt for goats milk and being forced to drink it as its "good for pregnancy."

We pasteurize overall because not every farmer (or his/her cows) is clean and healthy. Farmers notoriously cut corners to save money so they'll not clean the milking equipment or not clean the barn or just be slobs in general. Pasteurization cuts down on worries resulting from such practices by legally ensuring that any potential dangerous bacteria is killed. If you have a good, safe source of raw milk that you trust, the dangers are minimal. Its just when you look at is as an industry wide issue that it becomes a worry.

Seems it is a both sides argument, the FDA can be tyrannical and the model of insanity and yet we like not having to worry about any number of health issues and diseases that modern methods have eradicated. Just look at pork, we eradicated trichinosis because of those standards (at least in the US, not sure about elsewhere).

fdsaf3
10-21-2011, 11:27 AM
Keep that up and you might be about to become a world wide supplier... ;)

I feel like this is a Catch-22 reference, but I'm not sure.

Davian93
10-21-2011, 11:41 AM
Res, I am of the opinion that FDA standards and enforcement are a good thing. People shouldn't have to worry about dying of esaily containable bacteria/viral infections just because Joe Meatpacker is lazy/doesn't give a sh!t about cleanliness.

GonzoTheGreat
10-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Res, I am of the opinion that FDA standards and enforcement are a good thing. People shouldn't have to worry about dying of esaily containable bacteria/viral infections just because Joe Meatpacker is lazy/doesn't give a sh!t about cleanliness.Why not leave that to the free market, though? Or to the individual states, for that matter?

Bryan Blaire
10-21-2011, 12:03 PM
Res, I am of the opinion that FDA standards and enforcement are a good thing. People shouldn't have to worry about dying of esaily containable bacteria/viral infections just because Joe Meatpacker is lazy/doesn't give a sh!t about cleanliness.

IIRC, that's actually an FSIS thing first, then the FDA gets involved. I don't work with USDA-FSIS much though. I know they do meat-packers and testing, regs there, along with veggies and eggs. Probably overlaps a lot with FDA.

Davian93
10-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Speaking of the importance of vaccination:

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-10-21/Unvaccinated-behind-largest-US-measles-outbreak-in-years/50852098/1

Ishara
10-24-2011, 11:55 AM
I was going to edit my previous post, but figured it made more sense to bump the thread...

Bowlwoman, I would hate for you to think that I was being all judgy about the raw milk thing, it was more of a genuine question. I've just re-read the thread though, and with my reference to vaccines, I can see that you have misinterpreted my post to be critical of you specifically. Not so! ;)

bowlwoman
10-24-2011, 12:50 PM
I was going to edit my previous post, but figured it made more sense to bump the thread...

Bowlwoman, I would hate for you to think that I was being all judgy about the raw milk thing, it was more of a genuine question. I've just re-read the thread though, and with my reference to vaccines, I can see that you have misinterpreted my post to be critical of you specifically. Not so! ;)

Not at all! To tell you the truth, the idea of drinking raw milk squicked me out at first. I didn't mind the kids or the hubby drinking it, but I couldn't wrap my head around it. Then I read the article about the A2 milk and other literature and decided if I'm going to drink it, then I'll drink the raw. I don't drink much of it, but I do on occasion or to make hot drinks with. It's the weirdest in the summer when the cows eat lots of green grass and the milk is a yellow color. :D

As Dav mentioned, to do raw milk, it's important to either know the cow personally or know the dairy is up to pristine standards and preferably licensed. I'm just lucky we have the means, the opportunity, and the ability to make this choice for ourselves. That article about the Ontario farmer makes me haz a sad.

Given my family's history of heart issues, I think it's healthier for us to drink the raw milk even though there are the risks involved with no pasteurization. And, much like the vaccine issue, I think the benefits outweigh the potential small risks. Apparently pasteurizing milk really alters the proteins and makes them more problematic for the arteries (by oxidizing the fats). We also drink a lot less milk by drinking the raw (I think it's the A1 vs A2 thing again), so in terms of cost it winds up being the same or less than store-bought organic.

Terez
10-24-2011, 01:04 PM
After watching this documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y) I don't ever want to drink milk ever again.

Sei'taer
10-24-2011, 01:15 PM
It is possible to grow 'true' organic vegetables that are also pretty shitty (bland/aesthetically deformed/diseased).

Maybe non-organic food is like taking a class pass/fail. It's easier to pass, but it's worth less. Going letter-grade/organic doesn't mean you won't get a D though.

What do you consider organic? that's the question. If you grow your own garden and you don't do anything to it with chemicals and such, is it organic? Probably not. It's organically grown, not organic food. Most seeds and plants that you would buy are non-organic. If a tomato, for instance, says organic, but is grown to a cetain age and shipped green only to be treated in a hothouse so it will ripen and ship better, I wouldn't consider that organic.

If it's grown hydroponics/aquaponics is it organic? Probably not...but there are ways to assure that they are. Most people don't want to go to that trouble though. I've seen people go on and on about growing their own good and how it's so organic and tastes so much better and they use compost as fertilizer, but then they buy the seeds and seedlings treated with miracle gro or some other crap. This is a semantic issue, because while it's not organic, all you have to do is say "it's organically grown" and you're off the hook for using those kinds of seeds.

I'm working on some things for a business that has climbed deep down into these issues.

Davian93
10-24-2011, 01:17 PM
My chicken's eggs can never be legally certified as "organic" because I fed them medicated feed when they were chicks.

Doesnt matter if they ate/free ranged organic feed the rest of their lives, they'll never be "organic" as a result of that technicality. I could market them as "cage free" or "free range", nothing more.

bowlwoman
10-24-2011, 04:27 PM
My parents' garden and my father-in-law's vineyard are both grown using "sustainable agriculture practices" i.e., as organic as possible without adhering to strict labeling standards or being certified. They basically do everything they can do ensure their seed/root/seedling stock is sourced without growth chemicals/hormones and don't use chemical fertilizers or pest/weed control. My parents order as many heirloom seeds as they can to weed out (pun intended) the GMO and tasteless hybrids. So, it just depends on how far you're willing to go.

I usually buy seedlings for my small vegetable box and herb pots/beds, but I always get mine at Whole Foods or the local nursery that have been started without chemicals and not in Miracle Gro potting mix. We also have a decent compost pile in the backyard, and while I don't guarantee that everything that winds up in there is organic or hasn't had chemicals applied to it (by far the majority hasn't), it makes my vegetables grow very well. I routinely find volunteer potatoes or onions growing out of the compost from the peelings and roots that I throw out. It's kinda fun. :)