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WinespringBrother
10-26-2011, 12:25 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Cadsuane Melaidhrin.

Cadsuane is definitely one of the more polarizing characters in WOT-dom, given her on-screen treatment of Rand and Moiraine. Even Brandon is on record stating that he wanted her to get what's coming to her after her abuse of Tam al'Thor in TGS. As a big Moiraine fan myself, I hated Cadsuane at first, but that feeling has changed to an uneasy respect. She is harsh, uncompromising, has no use for custom or acknowledging anyone's station in life, yet clearly has Rand's and the Pattern's best interests at heart. She does show respect for those who she feels has earned it, such as Sorilea and Amys, and she does honor her commitments. To sum up, she is a great person to ally with and a very dangerous adversary, tearing down anyone who gets in her way, whether they are of the Shadow or not. She is a cautious and methodical planner, and surely there are some past schemes of hers that have yet to come to fruition in helping the Light win the Final Battle. So what does she have up her sleeve? Will she get through the Final Battle without alienating her allies too far? And what will happen in her inevitable reunion with Moiraine?!?

eht slat meit
10-26-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm speculating that Cadsuane's eventually going to work out that Sorilea's a darkfriend and one that gave Elza the domination band (based on an Aiel Traitor theory I wrote way back when ToM came out) and take her off the board. Given that Sorilea's not been seen since before Rand went into hyper-Aiel "I See You, Darkfriend" Mode, I'd further guess that Cadsuane will take the full dose of blame for the murder since she isn't liked or trusted anyway, and after being executed for it, will be revealed to be correct and finally teach Rand and the asha'man what she was prophesied to do - a measure of humility in self-sacrifice, something none of them really have.

Crispin's Crispian
10-26-2011, 01:13 PM
I'm speculating that Cadsuane's eventually going to work out that Sorilea's a darkfriend and one that gave Elza the domination band (based on an Aiel Traitor theory I wrote way back when ToM came out) and take her off the board. Given that Sorilea's not been seen since before Rand went into hyper-Aiel "I See You, Darkfriend" Mode, I'd further guess that Cadsuane will take the full dose of blame for the murder since she isn't liked or trusted anyway, and after being executed for it, will be revealed to be correct and finally teach Rand and the asha'man what she was prophesied to do - a measure of humility in self-sacrifice, something none of them really have.You know...I rather like this theory. I was going to posit that with the return of Moiraine and with Rand now enlightened, Cadsuane isn't really necessary.

This deals with her nicely and lets her go out with dignity.

Rand al'Fain
10-26-2011, 09:46 PM
You know...I rather like this theory. I was going to posit that with the return of Moiraine and with Rand now enlightened, Cadsuane isn't really necessary.

This deals with her nicely and lets her go out with dignity.
I personally, don't see it. Just seems too random for Caddy to go out that way. Plus if Rand's DF sensing thing is real, he'd be able to tell anyways.

I do think she'll die, but more so in a blaze of glory, annhilating Trollocs while defending Rand somehow.

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2011, 04:43 AM
... teach Rand and the asha'man what she was prophesied to do - a measure of humility in self-sacrifice, something none of them really have.Are you sure about that?
I do not think that the Asha'man that are with Perrin really lack in humility, and they've been working hard enough to talk about self-sacrifice too. And I am not at all sure that someone like Damer Flinn needs much more humility than, say, the average AS has.

The main Asha'man who lack humility are Rand, who simply cannot afford to let others take over, and Taim and his followers, who have been promised they'll get to rule the world really soon, so they too have reason for lack of humility. But that latter group isn't too likely to change their ways if Cadsuane is unjustly executed.

eht slat meit
10-27-2011, 05:04 AM
Are you sure about that?
I do not think that the Asha'man that are with Perrin really lack in humility, and they've been working hard enough to talk about self-sacrifice too. And I am not at all sure that someone like Damer Flinn needs much more humility than, say, the average AS has.

The main Asha'man who lack humility are Rand, who simply cannot afford to let others take over, and Taim and his followers, who have been promised they'll get to rule the world really soon, so they too have reason for lack of humility. But that latter group isn't too likely to change their ways if Cadsuane is unjustly executed.

Sure about it? No way. However, I'll point out that the Asha'man of the Black Tower have absolutely no positive influence on their training, and their leader is the soul of power and arrogance. Those that aren't corrupted may be decent people in general, but being basically decent and arrogant aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

A lesson in humility or shame isn't something most people like, but at least they're not so far gone as to require a Breaking like the White Tower got.

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2011, 05:22 AM
I think they'll get a worse Breaking, and be more honest about it too. Has the White Tower publicly admitted that there are over a hunderd Black Ajah members on the loose? I don't think so. I do think that Taim's defection to the Shadow will be acknowledged by Logain. Thus letting him win the humility contest against Egwene easily.

David Selig
10-27-2011, 07:50 AM
The average Asha'man seems much less arrogant than Cadsuane herself. And how can she teach others something she totally lacks?

SamJ
10-27-2011, 08:16 AM
I can think of a couple of potentials:

Either 'what must be endured can be', which is in some ways at the centre of who she is. I think it's part of what she uses to pick the AS who follow her (i.e. that some have had experiences which have taught them that). Anyway, it's unlikely to be pleasant. But I'm not sure I can think of the right mechanism for her to do this.

Or, the fact that AS know more than the Asha'men. I think there is something in this because (a) it's something she can teach to them all including the bad ones; and (b)it's true and they won't like it. There are AS with centuries of knowledge. Cadsuane expemplifies this accumulated experience and learning. I can imagine circumstances where this could be forcibly shown to the Asha'men - potentially connected to the plan for the LB (?. I can also imagine how Egwene and other AS might use this to try and be senior partners (at least for a few decades!)

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2011, 08:47 AM
A problem with the "AS know more than Asha'man" idea is that for this purpose, Rand is ranked as an Asha'man, but he is now also a full AS from the Second Age. Thus, he still has to learn it, but he knows a lot more about being AS than any other AS currently alive (if you discount the Forsaken, at least).
I doubt Cadsuane actually knows more than Rand, now that he has LTT's full memories available.

Ishara
10-27-2011, 09:04 AM
I've always been so curious about Cadsuane's early life as well. Who *was* Norla? Why the Black Hills? What did she learn there? And how on earth would some gummy Wilder have all those ter'angreal? How long did it take cadsuane (or Norla) to figure out what they all do?

As for her future, I envision one of two ends for her: fiery blaze of glory taking at least 3 of the Forsaken with her (arbitrary, yet appropriate number),

OR

A quiet life of retirement in the Two Rivers with Tam as her Warder. (ha ha ha)

Truthfully, I don't think she has it in her, for all of her prioritizing of Rand and the Pattern, to go quietly if and when Moiraine supercedes her place with Rand.

She may recognize that she's been replaced, but I think she's know that she still had a lot to offer both Rand and the world, with her knowledge and tough-love.

She may be able to have a frank discussion with Min as well, once she's got some extra time on her hands...

Davian93
10-27-2011, 09:08 AM
I think they'll get a worse Breaking, and be more honest about it too. Has the White Tower publicly admitted that there are over a hunderd Black Ajah members on the loose? I don't think so. I do think that Taim's defection to the Shadow will be acknowledged by Logain. Thus letting him win the humility contest against Egwene easily.

That's an internal White Tower issue, Gonzo. So what that there are known BA AS in Rand's immediate followers...The Amyrlin has bigger things on her mind like getting married and subjugating other female channelers under her hegemony.

Zombie Sammael
10-27-2011, 09:11 AM
That's an internal White Tower issue, Gonzo. So what that there are known BA AS in Rand's immediate followers...The Amyrlin has bigger things on her mind like getting married and subjugating other female channelers under her hegemony.

Did we scrap the rule about Egwene bashing? Shame if we did.

Davian93
10-27-2011, 09:12 AM
Did we scrap the rule about Egwene bashing? Shame if we did.

No...I violated it. Sometimes I cant help it.

eht slat meit
10-27-2011, 12:00 PM
The average Asha'man seems much less arrogant than Cadsuane herself. And how can she teach others something she totally lacks?

By -being- the lesson, rather than instructing in it. Lessons like that have a lot more impact on their audiences.

Enigma
10-27-2011, 03:13 PM
Login could be in need of a touch of caddy's treatment. He comes across as a decent sort most of the time but the little we have seen of him around and interacting with rand he is a bit of an ass.

For most of the non Taim Asha'man people might call them arrogant but how much of that is their refusal to bow and scrape for the Aes Sedai or nobility. Elaine though Taim was arrogant but how much of that was was him not acting like Elayne thought a commoner should?

Tomp
10-27-2011, 03:36 PM
Maybe the lesson she will teach Rand and the rest of the Asha'man is by showing a herself as a bad example. This will make them think: we must better ourselves, what she did was just wrong and look at the horrible consequences that came of it.

The Unreasoner
10-27-2011, 03:59 PM
I sort of run into a wall with the whole 'executed as punishment' thing. Rand at his most cold wouldn't order Semmirhage's death, but Rand Sedai will? Or is this another incarnation of the 'Dark Rand' theory?

eht slat meit
10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
I sort of run into a wall with the whole 'executed as punishment' thing. Rand at his most cold wouldn't order Semmirhage's death, but Rand Sedai will? Or is this another incarnation of the 'Dark Rand' theory?


He doesn't have to be directly involved to be a party to it happening. I mean, at some point here there are going to be a lot of darkfriend and Forsaken women biting the dust at the hand of Rand's allies, something that he is directly responsible for, whatever sensibilities he may still possess.

I mean, that's something we all expect to happen, right? Moghedien, Lanfear, Graendal, and a bunch of Black Ajah ARE going to die?

I should also point out that he's already crossed that threshold by killing Semirhage and Elza. He might not like doing it again, but...

WinespringBrother
11-11-2011, 08:54 AM
So it looks like Cadsuane is the subject of the reveal for The Great Hunt 2011. Would be nice to find out what she was up to after New Spring!

fionwe1987
12-03-2011, 04:46 PM
Are we really certain Moiraine will replace Cadsuane as Rand's adviser? I thought the set of events in ToM, from Rand acknowledging her role in his return to sanity, to her acknowledging his growth, was all about cementing her role as his Aes Sedai adviser. Sure, Moiraine is someone Rand likes a lot more. But I don't think she even wants to be his full time adviser. Moiraine has some facts for him, but after that, I don't think she wants to return to help him with the political challenges he faces. And, as the senior most Aes Sedai alive, Cadsuane is better suited to that anyway.

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2011, 05:06 PM
Considering the fact that by the time Moiraine gets back to Rand, he has less than 24 hours to live, "full time advisor to the Dragon Reborn" won't be an overly time consuming job.

jana
12-03-2011, 08:04 PM
Are we really certain Moiraine will replace Cadsuane as Rand's adviser? I thought the set of events in ToM, from Rand acknowledging her role in his return to sanity, to her acknowledging his growth, was all about cementing her role as his Aes Sedai adviser. Sure, Moiraine is someone Rand likes a lot more. But I don't think she even wants to be his full time adviser. Moiraine has some facts for him, but after that, I don't think she wants to return to help him with the political challenges he faces. And, as the senior most Aes Sedai alive, Cadsuane is better suited to that anyway.
I pretty much agree with Gonzo. I don't think he's going to have an adviser after the whole Shayol Ghul incident, and there isn't much time left before that. I feel like he's made up his mind on what he'll say to the people Egwene's gathered.

Man... my upstairs neighbors are trying to play a Billy Joel song on piano (and doing badly) and it's really distracting.

Edit: Okay, they've moved onto trying to play Martha My Dear and it's going slightly better.

GonzoTheGreat
12-04-2011, 04:30 AM
There isn't much time left, true, but both Moiraine and Cadsuane are smart enough to know that "advisor to the DR when he defeated the DO" would be quite a nice addition to an Aes Sedai's resume. So while the post may not have too many actual duties, it is definitely one worth fighting over.

Enigma
12-05-2011, 05:06 AM
Perhaps Rand will appoint one of them to be his ambassidor to the White Tower. After all both factions of the WT sent an one to him. Saying that with one book left and the brown stuff really hitting the fan, both Cadsuane with her ter'angreal and angreal and Moiraine with her angreal are major hitters for the forces of the light and they could both be too busy in battle for any other role.

fionwe1987
12-05-2011, 04:26 PM
There's a whole book left to cover the events after the Field of Merillor. I assure you, a trip to SG and then the aftermath are not all that remain.

The political problems Rand faces are far from over. His disagreement with Egwene about the Seals may have been manufactured to ease the book split, but they're definitely going to have words on his probable Seanchan plans (I'm assuming he'll propose a peace with them as a condition for going to SG), and that is something no one on his side is really going to support him on. Since everything seems to be set up towards another male-female split along the lines of what happened in the AoL, I think this Seanchan plan, along with the Black Tower, will be the issue. At which point having an Aes Sedai who will listen to him, and who has shown to have his interests at heart will be very important. And given that Cadsuane is the one who's seen his recent transformation, and been the person to show the most profound change in her behavior towards him, I think she's going to be that adviser.

Enigma
12-06-2011, 07:34 AM
It would probably help Rand to have someone like Moiraine negotiating on his behalf given how she is held in such high status. Likewise with Cadsuane, a lot of sisters may not like her but they all respect her. One thing to remember though is this that Rand does not need to negotiate if he choses not to.

Egwene, the AS and various Kings/Queens/Nobles might think that they are important but at the end of the day someone has to go and face the Dark One. Prophecy says if there is any chance for the Light to win that person has to be Rand. He can set out his terms and well if anyone things he is being unreasonable Rand can tell them that he is more that happy to do it their way provided that they go to SG to meet the DO. Otherwise if they want him to go this is the price he is demanding and its non negotiable.

fionwe1987
12-06-2011, 12:45 PM
It would probably help Rand to have someone like Moiraine negotiating on his behalf given how she is held in such high status. Likewise with Cadsuane, a lot of sisters may not like her but they all respect her. One thing to remember though is this that Rand does not need to negotiate if he choses not to.

Egwene, the AS and various Kings/Queens/Nobles might think that they are important but at the end of the day someone has to go and face the Dark One. Prophecy says if there is any chance for the Light to win that person has to be Rand. He can set out his terms and well if anyone things he is being unreasonable Rand can tell them that he is more that happy to do it their way provided that they go to SG to meet the DO. Otherwise if they want him to go this is the price he is demanding and its non negotiable.

And how did that work out for LTT?

Fact is, Rand made it clear he needs the women to help this time. It is also fact that Egwene has more or less made a decent alliance of women channelers, and none of those groups considers Rand's plan to be good. Now, a few women like Nynaeve and Cadsuane might be okay with Rand's plan, but there's no guarantee they will defy Egwene, or that even if they do, it will be enough.

GonzoTheGreat
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
Rand also has the fifty AS in Logain's group, plus quite a few more who have already sworn to serve him.

And, as far as I've been able to discover, Egwene hasn't bothered informing the Sea Folk of Rand's plans. She did discuss it with the Wise Ones, but that was in another meeting.

fionwe1987
12-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Rand also has the fifty AS in Logain's group, plus quite a few more who have already sworn to serve him.
None of whom are at the pinnacle of strength or skill. And more importantly, if they decide to support Egwene, the only way they can be made to help is by compelling them through the bond, something I doubt Rand will be happy ordering.

And, as far as I've been able to discover, Egwene hasn't bothered informing the Sea Folk of Rand's plans. She did discuss it with the Wise Ones, but that was in another meeting.
True, but how long do you think it will take her? They have established lines of communication ready, and already trust each other a little. Whereas Rand has largely ignored them. And if he should come out with a pro-Seanchan policy, they'll swing to Egwene's side in a hurry.

Enigma
12-06-2011, 05:48 PM
I seem to recall Nynaeve promising Rand she would be there to help him at the last battle. Aviendhan is quite strong as well and will probably help. Then there is the super strong ex seanchan damane who is going to help him die she does not seem to be blindly following Egwene's orders and will help Rand in what ever way she can.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2011, 04:15 AM
Elayne may decide to follow the one who actually has a chance at success rather than the one who happened to be shoved into a job no one else wanted to have.
And of course Rand has yet another (ex-)girlfriend flittering around somewhere, all eager to fetch his slippers and do his bidding in every way in exchange for some kind words (and release from the mindtrap).

Then there's thousands of channelers in Shara, who Egwene hasn't given any thought at all. But they have paid attention to current affairs, and they've already asked when the Dragon will finally get around to breaking the world again.
Of course, I think that Demandred is suckering that lot into fighting for the Shadow, but I could be wrong about this.

fionwe1987
12-07-2011, 04:58 AM
I don't doubt quite a few women will support Rand. But also note this: Nynaeve said she'd be there with him in SG. That hardly means she won't argue with him about what needs to be done there. With Aviendha, it all depends on Rand's plan for the Seanchan. With Elayne, it seems clear she is taking Egwene's side.

Most importantly, what if a circle of 72 is what Rand believes is needed? He may be able to scrounge up 36 women (maybe), but they're unlikely to be the strongest or most skilled, and the vast bulk of angreal and sa'angreal are in the Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2011, 06:41 AM
Then again, none of them has really heard Rand's arguments, yet.

For instance, I do not think that Egwene has even considered the fact that the DO has already broken a bunch of those seals, and should thus be expected to break the others when he thinks the time is right for him to do so. That simple fact changes the issue radically, from "let's break the seals" to "let's break the seals when it is convenient for us instead of letting the DO decide when he wants to do this".
I do not think that Egwene could come up with a good reason to let the DO dictate the moment of the Last Battle, when Rand would prefer another time for that.

fionwe1987
12-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Then again, none of them has really heard Rand's arguments, yet.

For instance, I do not think that Egwene has even considered the fact that the DO has already broken a bunch of those seals, and should thus be expected to break the others when he thinks the time is right for him to do so. That simple fact changes the issue radically, from "let's break the seals" to "let's break the seals when it is convenient for us instead of letting the DO decide when he wants to do this".
I do not think that Egwene could come up with a good reason to let the DO dictate the moment of the Last Battle, when Rand would prefer another time for that.
But then, Rand himself admitted he has no plan. He wants to break the Seals, but he doesn't have the final answer to how to defeat/re-seal the DO away. At which point, some clever person, say Egwene, will ask what the hurry is to break the Seals and allow the DO greater power to wreak havoc. Why not monitor the other Seals, and break them once a final plan has been decided upon?

This fundamental flaw in the argument between Egwene and Rand is what convinces me that the whole breaking of the Seals argument was manufactured as a result of the way ToM had to be structured. The real argument is going to be about the Seanchan, but Rand and Egwene couldn't discuss that in Chapter 3, way before Aviendha had her vision in Rhuidean. So, this artificial conflict was created as a substitute, since the factions for and against a possible peace with the Seanchan are going to be much the same.

In aMoL, Rand will make his "demands", which amount to an enforced peace with the Seanchan, something all the rulers, Egwene, the Wise Ones, the Sea Folk, Aviendha, etc. will oppose. Add in the Black Tower, and a male female schism like in the AoL will almost come in the way of defeating the Dark One.

Then, suddenly, news of Caemlyn will arrive, as will news from Naeff about the BT... the combined forces at Merrilor will split to deal with the two situations, leaving the White Tower bare to the Seanchan attack. Demandred will attack multiple cities, causing widespread chaos.

In the middle of this, the only way to succeed will be for the two sides to reach out to each other and work to end the chaos and figure out the way to defeat the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2011, 04:32 AM
In the middle of this, the only way to succeed will be for the two sides to reach out to each other and work to end the chaos and figure out the way to defeat the DO.Wouldn't that be easier to do if they were not all busy doing twenty things at once spread out all over the continent?

Of course, it is possible that when Rand pulls those seals out of the bag he's keeping them in they all turn out to be broken already. That'd leave both sides of the argument looking a bit stupid, wouldn't it?

Weiramon
12-08-2011, 04:22 PM
Then again, none of them has really heard Rand's arguments, yet.

For instance, I do not think that Egwene has even considered the fact that the DO has already broken a bunch of those seals, and should thus be expected to break the others when he thinks the time is right for him to do so. That simple fact changes the issue radically, from "let's break the seals" to "let's break the seals when it is convenient for us instead of letting the DO decide when he wants to do this".
I do not think that Egwene could come up with a good reason to let the DO dictate the moment of the Last Battle, when Rand would prefer another time for that.

Burn my soul, that's right!

It's not as though that young puppet of an Amyrlin has some book written by a Brown Sister laying out the Great Lo . . . I mean the Dark One's plans.

Best she be crushed at this Field of Merrilor, and then mount a charge at Shayol Ghul. These reports of fires in Caemlyn are likely just stories from peasants about Illuminator's works going off.