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WinespringBrother
10-28-2011, 12:38 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Olver I am not Gaidal Cain.

Olver, the orphaned refugee Cairhienen. The not reborn-sidekick-of-Birgitte. The loaded Chekhov's Gun that has been sitting on the mantle, that has been commented on by Robert Jordan to the effect of, he has a purpose besides being a not-so-red-herring. When last seen, he was armed with a knife and following Talmanes as he rallied the Band to save Caemlyn. So, what does the future hold for Olver? What heroics will he attempt?

Davian93
10-28-2011, 12:39 PM
Olver is clearly the key for saving Camelyn...I say he dies a glorious death in the process.

Zombie Sammael
10-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Guys, I've got this idea, right... I think Olver might be Gaidal Cain.

The Unreasoner
10-28-2011, 12:52 PM
How long is a TL week?

Davian93
10-28-2011, 12:53 PM
How long is a TL week?


10 days.

WinespringBrother
10-28-2011, 01:05 PM
How long is a TL week?


10 days.

LOL

It is 7 days, beginning on Fridays... I thought Ishara was going to resume her oversight of the COTW's on her return, [eta: but she didn't] so I decided at the last minute to post Cads on Wednesday for last week, then added Olver on the normal schedule...

Crispin's Crispian
10-28-2011, 03:11 PM
Guys, I've got this idea, right... I think Olver might be Gaidal Cain.

Pssh. :rolleyes: I came up with that idea at least six years ago.

I'm with Dav, though. He'll die a glorious death, and someone will flip out because of it and kill a lot of Trollocs.

Or, Brandon pulls a Steven Erikson and Olver gets stabbed in an alleyway by a Gray Man and dies alone and crying for Mat. The Gray Man is later killed, but we don't realize it's him until the next book and then we're all excited about justice.

arioch
10-28-2011, 03:25 PM
but we don't realize it's him until the next book

Book taking place after AMOL confirmed!

WinespringBrother
10-28-2011, 04:26 PM
Book taking place after AMOL confirmed!

Well it could be mentioned in the encyclopedia:

Olver (990-1000) ...

Davian93
10-28-2011, 05:52 PM
LOL

It is 7 days, beginning on Fridays... I thought Ishara was going to resume her oversight of the COTW's on her return, [eta: but she didn't] so I decided at the last minute to post Cads on Wednesday for last week, then added Olver on the normal schedule...

From Encyclopedia WoT: There are 10 days to the week1, 28 days to the month and 13 months to the year. Several feast days are not part of any month; these include Sunday (the longest day of the year), the Feast of Thanksgiving (once every four years at the spring equinox), and the Feast of All Souls Salvation, also called All Souls Day (once every ten years at the autumn equinox).

The early books said 7 but the newer books say 10 starting with LoC.

The Unreasoner
10-28-2011, 06:42 PM
From Encyclopedia WoT: There are 10 days to the week1, 28 days to the month and 13 months to the year. Several feast days are not part of any month; these include Sunday (the longest day of the year), the Feast of Thanksgiving (once every four years at the spring equinox), and the Feast of All Souls Salvation, also called All Souls Day (once every ten years at the autumn equinox).

The early books said 7 but the newer books say 10 starting with LoC.
...thanks :D

Tomp
10-28-2011, 06:49 PM
Olver clearly is Demandred, when he's not in the shape of Bela.

The Unreasoner
10-28-2011, 07:13 PM
Maybe every soul has a sort of 'double':
Olver/Cain, Demandred/Taim, and (I hate what I am about to do) Bela/Narg.

WinespringBrother
10-28-2011, 08:07 PM
From Encyclopedia WoT: There are 10 days to the week, 28 days to the month and 13 months to the year. Several feast days are not part of any month; these include Sunday (the longest day of the year), the Feast of Thanksgiving (once every four years at the spring equinox), and the Feast of All Souls Salvation, also called All Souls Day (once every ten years at the autumn equinox).

The early books said 7 but the newer books say 10 starting with LoC.

The Unreasoner was being a smart-aleck by observing that I started 2 character of the week threads this week ;) or at least that is the impression I was under. If they change the Theoryland week to 10 days, that is gonna really be annoying!

Zombie Sammael
10-29-2011, 04:24 AM
Maybe every soul has a sort of 'double':
Olver/Cain, Demandred/Taim, and (I hate what I am about to do) Bela/Narg.

There's certainly a running theme of duality in various ways throughout the books. Rand/Ishamael is far from the only other example.

Davian93
10-29-2011, 09:10 AM
The Unreasoner was being a smart-aleck by observing that I started 2 character of the week threads this week ;) or at least that is the impression I was under. If they change the Theoryland week to 10 days, that is gonna really be annoying!

Ahh...bad Unreasoner...BAD!

The Unreasoner
10-29-2011, 04:39 PM
Ahh...bad Unreasoner...BAD!
*goes and sits in the corner*

Rand al'Fain
10-29-2011, 09:09 PM
Olver will be the "Napoleon Boneparte" of his generation.

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2011, 06:44 AM
Olver will be the "Napoleon Boneparte" of his generation.Or, more likely, the Caligula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula).

Rand al'Fain
10-30-2011, 07:06 PM
Or, more likely, the Caligula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula).
I don't see him going insane. Or becoming Emperor, though he is basically be the adopted son of Mat and Tuon.

Lupusdeusest
10-31-2011, 09:19 AM
Maybe all the assailants of Caemlyn will be "female", and he shall charm them to submission and be snuggled to their many "impressive bosoms".
Mat will consequently be so jealous that he Snaps.

Ishara
10-31-2011, 10:15 AM
LOL

It is 7 days, beginning on Fridays... I thought Ishara was going to resume her oversight of the COTW's on her return, [eta: but she didn't] so I decided at the last minute to post Cads on Wednesday for last week, then added Olver on the normal schedule...

I suck, I know. I'll do better this week...

Okay, so down to business:

Olver is the biggest red-herring we've seen in the series. RJ spent a LOT of time building this kid up as a character - too much time, I think, for him to simply be there as a red-herring in the Birgitte - Gaidal Cain story.

So fine, he's not Gaidal Cain. But what, or who, is he? Just some random Carihienan orphan who has closer ties to the best General the Dragon has than anyone else in the world? Who has the affection of the Queen of Andor, and the Empress of the Seanchan? This kid is awfully well connected, and savvy enough to know it too. He's being informally tutored by Thom, not to mention the men of the Band. So, if he's not a character of old reborn, I think he's got the makings of someone significant in the future.

Davian93
10-31-2011, 10:27 AM
I suck, I know. I'll do better this week...

Okay, so down to business:

Olver is the biggest red-herring we've seen in the series. RJ spent a LOT of time building this kid up as a character - too much time, I think, for him to simply be there as a red-herring in the Birgitte - Gaidal Cain story.

So fine, he's not Gaidal Cain. But what, or who, is he? Just some random Carihienan orphan who has closer ties to the best General the Dragon has than anyone else in the world? Who has the affection of the Queen of Andor, and the Empress of the Seanchan? This kid is awfully well connected, and savvy enough to know it too. He's being informally tutored by Thom, not to mention the men of the Band. So, if he's not a character of old reborn, I think he's got the makings of someone significant in the future.

Maybe he was going to have a major role in the Mat/Tuon Outrigger novels?

yks 6nnetu hing
10-31-2011, 10:43 AM
Maybe he was going to have a major role in the Mat/Tuon Outrigger novels?

blech.

I quite like the Olver is Demandred theory, but I don't think Demandred would be able to keep in character for so long.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 10:46 AM
blech.

I quite like the Olver is Demandred theory, but I don't think Demandred would be able to keep in character for so long.

Don't you mean Olver is a Demandred (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=167589#post167589)?

Crispin's Crispian
10-31-2011, 12:17 PM
But what, or who, is he? Just some random Carihienan orphan who has closer ties to the best General the Dragon has than anyone else in the world?
Yes, this. He is just this, and his undignified death (mentioned above) is going to be the catalyst that makes Mat betray Rand.

Don't ask me how, exactly, but mark it. ;)

The Unreasoner
10-31-2011, 12:55 PM
Olver and Hatch will save the storeroom of the Dragons.

Shenanigans will ensue while we watch them try to figure out how to use them.

Enigma
11-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Might Olver have been in the story so that we could see some of the game of snakes & foxes and know that it was linked to Mat rescuing Moiraine. How often could Mat realistically play a child's game unless there was a child around?

Ishara
11-01-2011, 02:05 PM
That may be true - but we're all attached the kid now, so if he was simply a device to push the story along then he should have been made less endearing. As it stands, I don't think he can be fairly treated as a plot device anymore (if that's what he was before).

The Unreasoner
11-01-2011, 06:05 PM
There's certainly a running theme of duality in various ways throughout the books. Rand/Ishamael is far from the only other example.
EDIT:
I meant to say:
I was thinking more of a straight up double, than the complementary/dual thing. Olver=Gaidal, more than Olver+Gaidal are two sides of the same coin.

(It's this new Notepad++ build I was testing out, it was supposed to make it easier to post to multiple sites. Apparently there are still a few bugs in the resulting scripts. Or I screwed up. The asshole I was responding to had to google Olver and Gaidal)

Zombie Sammael
11-01-2011, 06:18 PM
You're out of your fucking mind if you think I'm going to help you out with that. DNA might be massively parallel, but what difference does it make if the industry takes the quantum route instead? Don't presume to place limits on the parallel nature of that (and before you say the technology isn't there yet, POW I'm rubber you're glue: The same goes for your DNA pipe dream). Or, as I've said <STRONG>a thousand fucking times</STRONG>, optical would be able to do pretty much everything DNA can, and in polynomial time. Look at thirdrockfromSol's design. Factoring semiprimes could be done at a <em>constant</em> rate. Not polynomial, like the best quantum algorithms I've seen (and understood. God I miss regular physics), but constant. Sure, you need dedicated hardware, but I can think of maybe a half-dozen basic structures with their own logic gates (or gate like things) that could be generalized to do any necessary task. You could even run it with with a 'normal' computer (Turing machine, for you precision assholes), as some sort of peripheral device. I don't know how to get the data stream into the ******* but who cares? Look at Apple's Thunderbolt. Much as I hate Apple and everything they stand for, they occasionally hit one out of the park.

(BTW, does anyone have a ipsw for itouch 2g that they can send me over the micromicromicro VPN? I'm trying to download it from Apple directly, but it's projected to take over 10 hours. It's around 300 MB, but I'm at 48 Mbps, so it shouldn't take <em>that</em> long.

This is definitely the funniest post you have made on these boards, and even further the best response you have ever made to a relatively innocuous comment by me.

Crispin's Crispian
11-01-2011, 06:29 PM
This is definitely the funniest post you have made on these boards, and even further the best response you have ever made to a relatively innocuous comment by me.

I concur. That was well worth the read.

I've long theorized that the Pattern is not dissimilar from a quantum computer, at least in the sense of generating multiple outcomes from a single event. If you factor in non-locality, each soul may have been paired with its parallel anti-soul at the time of creation, and they are always linked in non-space-time. The DNA aspect is irrelavant if you're talking about fiction, because the principles applied to particles should theoretically be applied to macro-beings on a Pattern level. Of course, we've covered this with Mirror Worlds, so what we really need to see is Herid Fel in a Mirror World building an iPhone.

The Unreasoner
11-01-2011, 06:30 PM
Well, I edited the post.
Is there some new profanity filter? Or is this the first time I used the word 'f*cker'?

Whoops. Guess not. Maybe the filter was in notepad

The Unreasoner
11-01-2011, 06:32 PM
I concur. That was well worth the read.

I've long theorized that the Pattern is not dissimilar from a quantum computer, at least in the sense of generating multiple outcomes from a single event. If you factor in non-locality, each soul may have been paired with its parallel anti-soul at the time of creation, and they are always linked in non-space-time. The DNA aspect is irrelavant if you're talking about fiction, because the principles applied to particles should theoretically be applied to macro-beings on a Pattern level. Of course, we've covered this with Mirror Worlds, so what we really need to see is Herid Fel in a Mirror World building an iPhone.
We were talking about DNA computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_computing)

Crispin's Crispian
11-01-2011, 06:50 PM
We were talking about DNA computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_computing)

Why would you be doing that on a WoT board? That's just nuts.

:cool:



ETA:
we need a "head-shaking" emoticon

Zombie Sammael
11-02-2011, 06:33 AM
Unreasoner, you have successfully derailed a thread by accident. Even with TL's somewhat... loose definition of "on topic" I think that's a first.

The Unreasoner
11-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Unreasoner, you have successfully derailed a thread by accident. Even with TL's somewhat... loose definition of "on topic" I think that's a first.
Feel free to edit my quote out of your post.
Although, I feel like this needs a little closure, so I thought I'd post an excerpt of what people were saying on the other end. They have some odd thoughts on what TL is (I'm ALUCA):
thirdrockfromSol: wtf is aluca talking about?
*RogerHammertime: He's testing my new notepad build, it's supposrd to automatically generate scripts to tweet and shit...obviously he fucked it up somehao. This looks like it was
*RogerHammertime: supposed to go to that wheel of time fanfic site he's been trolling
thirdrockfromSol: whats wheel of time?
martymcSUPERfly: HES REALLY GOING AT IT WITH VEGANVEALBURGER ISNT HE. WHO CARES ABOUT DNA OR PHYSICS.
veganvealburger: Shut up you time travelling shit
ALUCA: I haven't been 'trolling' anything.
*RogerHammertime: Yeah, it's a shame Google doesn't exist
thirdrockfromSol: @veganvealburger- optical is the way to go. DNA isn't true parallel
martymcSUPERfly: YEAH GOOGLE IT YOU DUMASS
veganvealburger: what's the point of having both a thread and a chat for the same discussion? Especially if ALUCA is losing his mind
thirdrockfromSol: can't you just tell me?
ALUCA: Sometimes you really need to use italics. My minds fine. I just ran into a small bug
martymcSUPERfly: WHEL OF TIME IS A SITE FOR EX &T MEMBERS THAT ONLY POSTED IN BI
*RogerHammertime: There are no bugs. You screwed up. Check your profile list info in the config xml
*RogerHammertime: marty and thirdrock are banned for 3 hours. Learn to use google or gtfo third rock. marty-you just annoy the hell out of me

The Unreasoner
11-02-2011, 06:56 PM
Why would you be doing that on a WoT board? That's just nuts.
I actually almost brought it up (and cellular automation in general) to argue against Tam's idea of a reset button, but I realized it would take more effort to fully explain the analogy than I thought the point was worth.

The Unreasoner
11-02-2011, 07:09 PM
Anyway, to continue my intended line of thought, there was a time that I thought a single soul could inhabit two bodies. Specifically, I thought Aviendha and Min shared a soul, based largely on some similar thought processes, and their scene together in WH. Also, I liked the idea of 'soulmates' (like with Birgitte and Gaidal), so I had no idea what to do about three wives. Two isn't much better, but I found it easier to argue for min and avi sharing a soul than either with Elayne.

I only saw RJ once, and I was going to ask about it, but at the last minute I asked about SH and Moridin instead (a gut instinct. Plus RJ seemed to be in a gruff mood that day, and I didn't want to be seen as wasting his time with a 'loony' theory, and the difficulty I would have explaining it to ask about it probably seals that deal).

But when Zombie (jokingly. I think) tossed out the 'multiple Demandreds' idea, it came back to me, and I've been tossing it around the old noggin. Then I remembered that (in addition to Demandred/Taim), Olver was on the list of people with potential doubles (Gaidal Cain).

It's not the duality thing (saidar/saidin, moridin/rand, TP/OP) so much, as that is always sort of complementary. What I had in mind was something far more crazy, and I wanted to point that out.

Zombie Sammael
11-02-2011, 07:31 PM
Anyway, to continue my intended line of thought, there was a time that I thought a single soul could inhabit two bodies. Specifically, I thought Aviendha and Min shared a soul, based largely on some similar thought processes, and their scene together in WH. Also, I liked the idea of 'soulmates' (like with Birgitte and Gaidal), so I had no idea what to do about three wives. Two isn't much better, but I found it easier to argue for min and avi sharing a soul than either with Elayne.

I only saw RJ once, and I was going to ask about it, but at the last minute I asked about SH and Moridin instead (a gut instinct. Plus RJ seemed to be in a gruff mood that day, and I didn't want to be seen as wasting his time with a 'loony' theory, and the difficulty I would have explaining it to ask about it probably seals that deal).

But when Zombie (jokingly. I think) tossed out the 'multiple Demandreds' idea, it came back to me, and I've been tossing it around the old noggin. Then I remembered that (in addition to Demandred/Taim), Olver was on the list of people with potential doubles (Gaidal Cain).

It's not the duality thing (saidar/saidin, moridin/rand, TP/OP) so much, as that is always sort of complementary. What I had in mind was something far more crazy, and I wanted to point that out.

I think that even if your theory isn't true, we've seen that there are many smaller cycles within the great cycle of the ages. Our age is probably not intended to be the Third Age, or even the Fourth (current front runner is the First among most, I think) but nevertheless there are many parallels between our time and the AOL, and our history and the Third Age, etc. So even though one soul might not necessarily inhabit two bodies, there's no reason to think that two souls couldn't serve a similar or even the same purpose. Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are probably not the only two warrior-lovers in existence, but they may be the most iconic. This is the trouble with being a Hero of the Horn; even if you lived a hundred thousand times, legends you had nothing to do with would still end up being attributed to you.

So no, I don't think Olver can actually be Gaidal Cain any more than Demandred can be Taim, but he can be a lot like Gaidal Cain, and his deeds might even end up attributed to Cain.

The Unreasoner
11-02-2011, 07:59 PM
I think that even if your theory isn't true, we've seen that there are many smaller cycles within the great cycle of the ages. Our age is probably not intended to be the Third Age, or even the Fourth (current front runner is the First among most, I think) but nevertheless there are many parallels between our time and the AOL, and our history and the Third Age, etc. So even though one soul might not necessarily inhabit two bodies, there's no reason to think that two souls couldn't serve a similar or even the same purpose. Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are probably not the only two warrior-lovers in existence, but they may be the most iconic. This is the trouble with being a Hero of the Horn; even if you lived a hundred thousand times, legends you had nothing to do with would still end up being attributed to you.

So no, I don't think Olver can actually be Gaidal Cain any more than Demandred can be Taim, but he can be a lot like Gaidal Cain, and his deeds might even end up attributed to Cain.
Hmm. I'm having a little trouble connecting your second paragraph to the first. It seems a little like the 'competing to be the Dragon' debate.

But say Olver and Gaidal are born at the same time, but Gaidal is stillborn. Could Olver be Birgitte's lover in that lifetime, without being Gaidal? Could the wheel anticipate the stillbirth and cram the soul into two bodies?

Ishara
11-03-2011, 09:41 AM
Hmm. I'm having a little trouble connecting your second paragraph to the first. It seems a little like the 'competing to be the Dragon' debate.

But say Olver and Gaidal are born at the same time, but Gaidal is stillborn. Could Olver be Birgitte's lover in that lifetime, without being Gaidal? Could the wheel anticipate the stillbirth and cram the soul into two bodies?

This possibility was actually addressed by BS - not sure where off the top of my head. Could be one of the car interviews.

Essentially, the premise that Hero souls are spun out is accurate, and that it should have been a baby, making Olver too old to be Cain. But that doesn't preclude the body that the Hero soul is psun out into from dying and the soul returning to TAR waiting to be spun out again. Mind you, if the Pattern spun out a Hero soul, you'd think it would at least prevent the Hero soul from dying until it had done its job. But that's just me.

Zombie Sammael
11-03-2011, 09:45 AM
This possibility was actually addressed by BS - not sure where off the top of my head. Could be one of the car interviews.

Essentially, the premise that Hero souls are spun out is accurate, and that it should have been a baby, making Olver too old to be Cain. But that doesn't preclude the body that the Hero soul is psun out into from dying and the soul returning to TAR waiting to be spun out again. Mind you, if the Pattern spun out a Hero soul, you'd think it would at least prevent the Hero soul from dying until it had done its job. But that's just me.

One can imagine a scenario where it might become necessary for even a hero soul to die in order to prevent a greater crisis. Given the Wheel's tendency to manipulate chaos theory, killing baby Gaidal Cain now might be the only thing stopped the Dark One from winning in the next Age of Legends.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2011, 11:37 AM
One can imagine a scenario where it might become necessary for even a hero soul to die in order to prevent a greater crisis. Given the Wheel's tendency to manipulate chaos theory, killing baby Gaidal Cain now might be the only thing stopped the Dark One from winning in the next Age of Legends.

ZS and Ishara, I all that implies far more predestination than the books seem to indicate. By the accounts with which I'm familiar, Heroes are spun out to perform certain tasks that help the Pattern stay in balance. Yes, to an extent the Pattern dictates what the Heroes do, but they are still free agents. If the Wheel could just Weave things the right way, it wouldn't need to spin out Heroes to do it. It relies on the agency of the Heroes to fix things--that's why they are Heroes.

Zombie Sammael
11-03-2011, 11:54 AM
ZS and Ishara, I all that implies far more predestination than the books seem to indicate. By the accounts with which I'm familiar, Heroes are spun out to perform certain tasks that help the Pattern stay in balance. Yes, to an extent the Pattern dictates what the Heroes do, but they are still free agents. If the Wheel could just Weave things the right way, it wouldn't need to spin out Heroes to do it. It relies on the agency of the Heroes to fix things--that's why they are Heroes.

It's the free will debate, isn't it? i.e. Does free will exist in the world of WOT or not? Evidently, human actions are capable of damaging the Pattern (freeing the DO) so that suggests that there is, but on the other hand, what if the Pattern actually needs the DO for some specific purpose? In a way, the DO as consequence for breaking out of the pattern does prevent the "threads" from actually exploring what's outside the age lace, which if the metaphor of the spinning wheel is taken to it's logical conclusion would cause far worse damage, so maybe it does need the DO. On the other hand, why make that consequence something which is also capable of destroying the pattern in a similar way?

It seems (from the comments made in TEOTW) that free will is available up to a certain extent, and that small changes can be accommodated by the pattern, but that larger changes shouldn't be available, and that the release of the DO is the consequence of what happens when people with too much power (in this case, the One Power) start exercising free will.

How does all this square with the idea of an infant hero dying before completing their purpose? I suppose it would really depend upon how much damage would be done to the pattern by not completing that purpose. There probably isn't some specific time limit on when Heroes can be spun out, so it might be possible to reincarnate the necessary hero again almost immediately, but on the other hand, a few months would make a massive difference to eventual consequences, and that's assuming there's an available parental unit of exactly the same composition in exactly the same area.

The best illustration of this is probably Rand himself. If he had died that day on the slopes of Dragonmount, there is no way he could just have been instantly re-reincarnated as necessary - too much of the Chaos Theory manipulation I was talking about had already happened. There are numerous ways in which this might have happened; we have to assume the DO is at least comparable to the Wheel in terms of intelligence. The Wheel would, one assumes, had to have used one of the other heroes, very likely the Female Dragon we've been told about (unless she has already been reincarnated herself).

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-03-2011, 12:00 PM
omg I finally came to this thread, which I have been avoiding precisely because...

GAIDAL ISN'T OLVER

Grady's son is Gaidal:


TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 10 - After the Taint
Perrin shook his head and banished the image. "We'll get you home, Grady," he promised. "You'll have some time with her before the end comes." Grady nodded, glancing at the sky as a low rumble of thunder came from the north. "I just want to talk to her, you know? And I need to see little Gadren again. I won't recognize the lad." "I'm sure he's a handsome child, Grady." Grady laughed. It felt odd, but good, to hear that from the man. "Handsome? Gadren? No, my Lord, he might be big for his age, but he's about as pretty as a stump. Still, I love him something fierce." He shook his head, amused. "But I should be off learning this trick with Neald. Thank you, my Lord."

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have opened that can. Oh well... ;)

It seems (from the comments made in TEOTW) that free will is available up to a certain extent, and that small changes can be accommodated by the pattern, but that larger changes shouldn't be available, and that the release of the DO is the consequence of what happens when people with too much power (in this case, the One Power) start exercising free will.

I think the release of the DO is one consequence, but it is a consequence for which the Wheel has prepared. The DO [him]self is another story though. He's like chaos incarnate, and the Pattern can't account for his direct action. That's why the Creator sealed him up in the first place.

I've always wondered if humans were supposed to be able to tap the One Power. That is, did the Pattern plan for that, or was it an accident akin to drilling the Bore? As far as we know, Rand is the only Hero who can channel, and we know the Horn predates the Age of Legends. Hmm...

Zombie Sammael
11-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have opened that can. Oh well... ;)



I think the release of the DO is one consequence, but it is a consequence for which the Wheel has prepared. The DO [him]self is another story though. He's like chaos incarnate, and the Pattern can't account for his direct action. That's why the Creator sealed him up in the first place.

I've always wondered if humans were supposed to be able to tap the One Power. That is, did the Pattern plan for that, or was it an accident akin to drilling the Bore? As far as we know, Rand is the only Hero who can channel, and we know the Horn predates the Age of Legends. Hmm...

One assumes the female Dragon would need to be able to channel as well, in order to fulfil that role.

Ishara
11-03-2011, 03:14 PM
ZS and Ishara, I all that implies far more predestination than the books seem to indicate. By the accounts with which I'm familiar, Heroes are spun out to perform certain tasks that help the Pattern stay in balance. Yes, to an extent the Pattern dictates what the Heroes do, but they are still free agents. If the Wheel could just Weave things the right way, it wouldn't need to spin out Heroes to do it. It relies on the agency of the Heroes to fix things--that's why they are Heroes.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Heroes are predestined to be healthy grown-ups until they can fulfill their purpose - just that they ARE predestined to be spun out. That's the whole point of being tied to the Wheel, no?

And Saucy, LOL. Still too old, I think.

Crispin's Crispian
11-03-2011, 04:28 PM
Yes, of course. I just wonder whether their actual actions are predestined, or if it's just really likely they won't die in a horse and cart accident at age five or something.

The Unreasoner
11-04-2011, 05:35 PM
we need a "head-shaking" emoticon
Ask, and you shall receive:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/1004.gif

Crispin's Crispian
11-04-2011, 05:43 PM
Ask, and you shall receive:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/1004.gif

LOL...took you a full day to find it?
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/1004.gif

The Unreasoner
11-04-2011, 05:58 PM
lol I wasn't really looking...but I saw it in a post on another board today, and thought of your comment. It's not part of the 'usual' emoticons, but as long as we can post images it works out fine. They have some pretty cool ones on the site.

The Unreasoner
11-04-2011, 06:03 PM
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/071.gif
^for the uber hilarious

Mathematics:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1088.gif

For UFO stuff:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/abduct.gif

And:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/126.gif
...No fucking clue on this one (well, I have one)

eht slat meit
11-05-2011, 12:33 AM
I'm inclined to think of Olver as a red herring, a child with the potential to be a hero, but there is one scenario in which I could see him being Gaidal. I'm not sure I'd present it as a theory, because it relies on Moghedien being uncharacteristically silent in her PoV post-removal or a mistake on Birgitte's part and a post-ripping action by Moghedien that indicates she believes she has more power over the Pattern than she does.

We've already seen Moghedien pull the "child" trick on Birgitte, when she joined Nynaeve in TAR for their fight. Theoretically, she could do the very same thing to Gaidal and then rip him out of TAR, resulting in a child with the mind of a child, his adult memories in the backseat.

Enter Olver.

It could work, and there's a heckuvalot of insinuation in Min's viewing of Birgitte that -something- has. When Nynaeve is talking to Birgitte about Gaidal's possible rebirth, it is mentioned (and the PoV insight is questionable) that Birgitte is always spun out after Gaidal. If this is true, then Min's viewing is a -future- viewing, of various Birgitte personas with a younger Gaidal Cain.

She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after. ~ TFoH Ch14

Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man. ~ WH Ch12