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Eltheriond
10-31-2011, 07:31 AM
Sorry if this has been posted before, but my Google-fu is not what it used to be. I am currently re-reading TEotW, and I stumbled upon this quote in the chapter "Remembrance of Dreams":

LOIAL: "I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to humans." (In reference to his Talent for Treesinging)

Does this reference basically nullify all those theories going around claiming that the Tuatha'an will "re-learn The Song" and do some awesome-amazing thing with it? Thoughts are appreciated.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 07:37 AM
Not necessarily. The "song" is a reference to the songs the Da'shain Aiel used to sing in the AOL, not to Treesinging. I rather think the thing with the song has actually been resolved as of TSR; the song is actually all those songs, which down the years have coalesced into one lost song that needs to be rediscovered, but in fact it never can be, because it was never one song at all, it was many. A nice metaphor for the AOL and everything that was lost at the end of that age.

Eltheriond
10-31-2011, 07:41 AM
You beat me to the punch ;)

I was going to say "before anyone mentions it, I realize 'The Song' and Treesinging are different things, this is just meant to be conjecture."

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 07:50 AM
Okay, well ignoring the fact that "the song" as such doesn't actually exist, I guess if humans led by Tuatha'an were able to learn how to Treesing all of a sudden, that would be pretty awesome. I'm not sure it's going to play out like that though, because it looks like that's impossible.

The Unreasoner
10-31-2011, 11:08 AM
"the song" as such doesn't actually exist
That's conjecture if I ever saw it.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 11:16 AM
That's conjecture if I ever saw it.

There is evidence demonstrating that it doesn't - it's a garbled reference to various AOL songs. There is not one magic song that will bring back the AOL and there never was.

The Unreasoner
10-31-2011, 12:57 PM
There is evidence demonstrating that it doesn't - it's a garbled reference to various AOL songs. There is not one magic song that will bring back the AOL and there never was.
Evidence schmevidence.

There's 'evidence' that Taim is a Darkfriend (and somewhat sane) too.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 01:48 PM
Evidence schmevidence.

There's 'evidence' that Taim is a Darkfriend (and somewhat sane) too.

Why have you suddenly decided to live up to your name?

JOS
10-31-2011, 01:51 PM
I think what they are really looking for is "The Voice".

The Unreasoner
10-31-2011, 04:19 PM
Why have you suddenly decided to live up to your name?
Well, it's not fair to leave that duty wholly to Weiramon.

And you and Sei'taer and Tomp made me feel bad, so I'm getting back to my roots.

ETA:
These are actually real points of mine though. I think there may be a song, if one far too complex for a mortal mind to grasp.
And my thoughts on Taim are in his thread.

Zombie Sammael
10-31-2011, 04:28 PM
Well, it's not fair to leave that duty wholly to Weiramon.

And you and Sei'taer and Tomp made me feel bad, so I'm getting back to my roots.

ETA:
These are actually real points of mine though. I think there may be a song, if one far too complex for a mortal mind to grasp.
And my thoughts on Taim are in his thread.

I know your... theory about Taim. I like it, but I think it is a little bit looney (I'm convinced he's a Demandred :P).

I think that what you are referring to would be distinct from the Song of the Tuatha'an. The Tuatha'an at least believe that their song was known during the AOL and lost. If the Song was too complex for a mortal to understand, how could that be?

There is certainly something within the relationship between the Tuatha'an, Aiel, Ogier Treesingers, and Nym, but whether we will ever see that explored is something I'm not so sure about. Unless some of the more "out there" theories are correct, I think that with battles and betrayals and revelations there will simply not be any time for singing.

The Unreasoner
10-31-2011, 04:37 PM
I'm convinced he's a Demandred
I actually do like the idea that Taim was Demandred, until too much of the fandom figured it out, and too quickly. So RJ changed his mind, but couldn't really fit him in anywhere else (which is why we can't find him), and he invented a whole new fantastic purpose for Demandred (one that renders it the 'biggest mystery of the series').

Not that I believe it, but I like it.

greatwolf
11-02-2011, 09:55 AM
There is certainly something within the relationship between the Tuatha'an, Aiel, Ogier Treesingers, and Nym, but whether we will ever see that explored is something I'm not so sure about. Unless some of the more "out there" theories are correct, I think that with battles and betrayals and revelations there will simply not be any time for singing.

I suppose you could say the "song" has been found in a way. Seedsinging in the AoL was done by Nym, Ogier and selected aiel. It produced blight resistant crops. But this has already occured in EotW when Loial did some treesinging at the eye. It had Nym, Ogier and aiel(Rand at least) in attendance and its effects were resistant to the blight.

The real questions now are: 1) Is a nym needed for seedsinging? (2) If so, can a nym die? Can it be rebuilt? Somestha lived for a long long time after the others were long dead. Yet his death left questions. Loial said "something" of him remained at the eye. So can he be sung back to life?

LTT knew about the seedsinging, but how much? Does he know how nym were made and can he make one or teach it? Will he find it necesary to do so?

Tree Brother
11-02-2011, 03:30 PM
The real questions now are: 1) Is a nym needed for seedsinging? (2) If so, can a nym die? Can it be rebuilt? Somestha lived for a long long time after the others were long dead. Yet his death left questions. Loial said "something" of him remained at the eye. So can he be sung back to life?

LTT knew about the seedsinging, but how much? Does he know how nym were made and can he make one or teach it? Will he find it necesary to do so?

Is "the Voice" hereditary? If so, the Tinkers are no longer Aiel (to much mixing with non-Aiel), so may not have that talent (or are less likely to have it). Which would be ironic, since they are looking for "the Song" which they probably cannot sing.

greatwolf
11-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Is "the Voice" hereditary? If so, the Tinkers are no longer Aiel (to much mixing with non-Aiel), so may not have that talent (or are less likely to have it). Which would be ironic, since they are looking for "the Song" which they probably cannot sing.

I don't think its a hereditary thing. Aiel were selected probably like anyone else. It may be their qualities (the convenant) that made them part of the process. If what happened at the eye is anything to go by, it isn't even necesary to have humans singing and indeed ogier seed singers do it without human aid.

The nym however, appear to have been made for the purpose. To convert the songs into plant life. Extraordinary plant life. Likely they do it better than the ogier.

Wantanswers
11-03-2011, 09:53 AM
That's conjecture if I ever saw it.

“We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!”
(The Shadow Rising, The Dedicated)
Originally they were looking for songs.In 3000 years memories became legends, and the songs became the Song.
Ten thousands Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song.
(The Shadow Rising, The Dedicated)
I consider the possibility that the Dai'shan Aiel performed (one or some of) their songs here.