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arioch
11-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Something in my head has been tumbling around since the vitriol on the bonding issue yesterday, so I did some googling and I don't think this has been brought up on theoryland (or elsewhere either, like DM).

The 'finn told Rand:


"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."


I think the key phrasing here is actually "must be as one".

What is new in the Third Age? The Bond. It is no coincidence that in the Age of Legends nobody clued in to this, yet in the Third Age 3 distinct channelling factions have discovered variations on it on their own: the Aes Sedai, with the Warder Bond, the Asha'man with their "wife" bond, and the Aiel with the "first sister" bond.

The bond is brand new. Everything else discovered so far has been either lost Talents, or something to restore what was lost (channelling ability or sanity) that was already theorized but thought impossible. But the bond was not even theorized in the Age of Legends.

What is interesting about the bond is that it seems to combine bonder and bondee, Spirit-ually, as one. What happens to one person in the bond, happens spiritually to the other (if biologically compatible, as in gender). Birgitte and Elayne can feel drunk or aroused off of each other. Opposing sex bonds can still feed off of each other.


He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him.


Bind? Bond?


“I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon,” Moiraine said. “I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come.” She looked at Mat. “You should not spurn the Warder bond so easily, Mat. The blessings it provides will be of great use to men in these days.”

Mat pulled his hat back on. “That may be true, but you’ll never see me bloody trapped by one. No offense, Moiraine. I like you well enough. But to be bonded to a woman? Isn’t going to happen to Matrim Cauthon.”

“Is that so?” Thom asked, amused. “Didn’t we determine that your Tuon would be capable of channeling, should she decide to learn?”

Mat froze. Bloody ashes. Thom was right. But channeling would make her marath’damane. She would not do such a thing. He did not have to worry.

Did he?


I don't know that I have accumulated enough to toss into a postable theory here, but I do think it's kind of taking shape, and it really is suggestive.

Also, it would very neatly explain Ishamael and Mazrim Taim.

As an aside, the Prophecy version of the alliance structure (as opposed to the 'finn version) is even more suggestive:


The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2011, 01:23 PM
So you are theorizing the bond, as an act, is the result that is phrophesized? I am not following this completely...the lands can be bonded? Or the people of the north can be bonded to the southerners?

Interesting.

I don't understand the link to Ishmael and Taim...please elaborate.

Is the idea that Rand must be bonded to another male (Logain? Moridin?) to be tied together physically enough that he (his body) could die, yet live (switch bodies or merge)?

arioch
11-04-2011, 01:34 PM
So you are theorizing the bond, as an act, is the result that is phrophesized? I am not following this completely...the lands can be bonded? Or the people of the north can be bonded to the southerners?

Interesting.

I don't understand the link to Ishmael and Taim...please elaborate.

Is the idea that Rand must be bonded to another male (Logain? Moridin?) to be tied together physically enough that he (his body) could die, yet live (switch bodies or merge)?

Taim has been kind of sharing Moridin's schtick for a while now, down to favoring a hand like Moridin is (because Rand lost one). I think it would be neatly explained if Moridin's feeling it due to the balefire stream crossing, but Taim is feeling it because Ishamael/Moridin bound him as a compelled Warder.

I don't know that the bond will play a role in the "to live, you must die" part, but I do think the bond will be used to get most of the way towards a resolution to most of the outstanding remaining conflicts. Given what we know of the proposed outriggers, for example, and the quoted passage above, I think it's incredibly likely that Fortuona will (secretly?) learn to channel and will bind Mat as her Warder.


Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly,
for he will marry you and carry you away.
Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face,
for he will marry you and set you free.
Beware the man of the red hand,
for him you will marry and none other.


And if she learns to channel, what could Mat actually set her free from ... perhaps an a'dam? (if we discount the kidnapping)

arioch
11-04-2011, 01:38 PM
The bond removes divisions (between Aes Sedai and Asha'man, between channellers and non-channellers, etc.) metaphorically making two people one person. If more bonds were established among both sides of a conflict (what the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man have been trying to do for the past couple books, whether they know it or not), it could result in greater diplomacy and increased tendency to peaceful resolutions.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-04-2011, 01:48 PM
And if she learns to channel, what could Mat actually set her free from ... perhaps an a'dam? (if we discount the kidnapping)

Already happened. Mat set Tuon free when he allowed her to leave him...he had promised he would and he kept his word.

arioch
11-04-2011, 01:52 PM
Already happened. Mat set Tuon free when he allowed her to leave him...he had promised he would and he kept his word.

I don't really like that as a fulfilling of the Foretelling, because the Foretelling doesn't say he would kidnap her.

I think the entirety of the Foretelling is said to Tuon with her "current state" in mind, which was when she was on the ship, not when she was kidnapped by Mat and taken all the way across Altara.

hinkel
11-04-2011, 05:15 PM
I don't really like that as a fulfilling of the Foretelling, because the Foretelling doesn't say he would kidnap her.

Sure it does...

for he will marry you and carry you away

arioch
11-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Sure it does...

I just really think it's too straightforward for a Foretelling, and that there are so many different ways to interpret "carry you away" and "set you free", particularly as the sentences are arranged such that you might think both carry/set take place AFTER the marriage takes place--especially when the latter half of the ceremony Tuon concludes after Mat already told her to go with Karede.

arioch
11-04-2011, 11:00 PM
Instead of getting bogged down with quibbling over one thing, let's draw a fuller picture of many such items. Consider this:


“Men who can channel are given a choice,” Harine said. “They can either step from the bow of their ship holding a stone which is also tied to their legs, or they can be dropped off on a barren isle with no food or water. The second is considered the more shameful option, but some few do take it, to live for a brief time longer.”

Not much different from what his own people did in gentling men, truth be told. “Saidin is cleansed now,” he said to her. “This practice must stop.”

She pursed her lips, regarding him. “Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”

“It is true,” he said firmly.

“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”



“What do you think, Elza?” Rand said, turning from Corele to the other Aes Sedai. “About the taint and what Harine said?”

The round-faced woman hesitated. She walked with hands behind her back, dark green dress marked only by subtle embroideries. Utilitarian, for an Aes Sedai. “If my Lord Dragon says that the taint has been cleansed,” the woman said carefully, “then it is certainly improper to express doubt of him where others can hear.”

Rand grimaced. An Aes Sedai answer for certain. Oath or no oath, Elza did as she wished.

“Oh, we were both there at Shadar Logoth,” Corele said, rolling her eyes. “We saw what you did, Rand. Besides, I can feel male power through dear Damer here when we link. It has changed. The taint is gone. Right as sunlight, it is, though channeling the male half still feels like wrestling with a summer whirlwind.”


It took an Aes Sedai with an Asha'man Warder to say it straight out. It'll probably take many more such bondings and Aes Sedai offering Three Oaths-backed pronouncements before the majority of people actually start believing it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-05-2011, 05:11 AM
It took an Aes Sedai with an Asha'man Warder to say it straight out. It'll probably take many more such bondings and Aes Sedai offering Three Oaths-backed pronouncements before the majority of people actually start believing it.But those other AS won't know what it felt like when the Taint was there, so they can't honestly declare that things are different now.

greatwolf
11-05-2011, 10:01 PM
But those other AS won't know what it felt like when the Taint was there, so they can't honestly declare that things are different now.

No, but it'll help for the populace to know AS are willing to live with men who can channel. It may be the best way to pronounce them safe. Or maybe normal is a better term. And up for grabs.

That said, i hope Arioch will tell us what he has in mind

The bond is brand new. Everything else discovered so far has been either lost Talents, or something to restore what was lost (channelling ability or sanity) that was already theorized but thought impossible. But the bond was not even theorized in the Age of Legends.

But they seem to be similar to linking from the aol. Though links were not lost, they were used more in the aol to achieve more. Especially saidin-saidar links. And iirc, the link between mydraal and trollocs also existed in the aol. Your point is taken though.

What is interesting about the bond is that it seems to combine bonder and bondee, Spirit-ually, as one. What happens to one person in the bond, happens spiritually to the other (if biologically compatible, as in gender).

Not all. We don't know that this happens with the aiel type of bond. And while the adam shares some of these properties, it and the others vary in many ways.

Enigma
11-06-2011, 08:00 AM
No, but it'll help for the populace to know AS are willing to live with men who can channel. It may be the best way to pronounce them safe. Or maybe normal is a better term. And up for grabs.

There is also the fact that Asha'man have been serving with several armies recently and proved reliable. The people with Perrin can attest to this as can those who with Rodel Ituralde.

greatwolf
11-07-2011, 07:31 AM
There is also the fact that Asha'man have been serving with several armies recently and proved reliable. The people with Perrin can attest to this as can those who with Rodel Ituralde.

Yes they're reliable, but for how long is what people will be wondering. But knowing that they are safe from insanity would help people and boost their confidence that the light can win the LB. In addition it lets people know that what the DO can do can be reversed.

That in turn, could make the pattern itself stronger and at the same time weaken the DO. At the very least, fewer will be tempted to turn to the shadow when the hour grows darkest.

In truth I don't expect Rand to think like this, he just a 20yr old who's been abruptly pushed into the role of supreme leader and saviour. He's solely focused on what he should do and getting to TLB and cannot see what others are doing or how it would help him.

But LTT should know better. He's had enough leadership experience to know the value of things like teamwork, delegation and motivation. If Rand were LTT, he'd instinctively know these things the way Mat unwittingly plots battles.

So the problem is that despite the "integration" LTT isn't fully back yet, and the FoL are heading into the most perilous period without a supreme leader to hold them together and see them through.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2011, 08:16 AM
I don't see what Rand could do about it, to be honest.
He can say that the Taint is gone, but he's been doing that anyway, so that wouldn't be different.
He can give a speech, saying "people you've never met and never heard of now somewhat trust (some) Asha'man", but that's not gonna reach a lot of people, and it would convince even fewer.

It might help if AS started mentioning it, of course. There are a lot more female AS than male ones, so they would have the advantage of numbers. And, on top of that, there's the Three Oaths, which, presumably, make them trustworthy, or at least believable.

Enigma
11-07-2011, 11:51 AM
At the moment what the general population thinks about the Asha'man is really irrelevent unless it does have some strenghening effect on the pattern. Its the high ranking officers and leaders who are comming into close contact with the Asha'man not some random farmer or merchant.

In the long run as long as the Asha'man stick together in the BT it will sort itself out. It might take years for doubt to be removed from the general populations mind, perhaps even a generation but as long as the Asha'man stick together no one aside from the Seanchan and the Shadow stand any chance of destroying them.

People in Andor might be still fearful of the Asha'man but they can't burn them out or drive them off so they will have to put up with them and eventually they will get used to having the BT there.

greatwolf
11-07-2011, 06:35 PM
I could really disagree with a lot of things you said Enigma,

At the moment what the general population thinks about the Asha'man is really irrelevent

Even when they're ready to kill the ashaman at the first sign of abnormal behaviour? With TLB at hand? The ashaman inspire fear and the taint is a chaos agent of sorts that helps to make the DO stronger. In a way, the ashaman serve as a reminder to the populace of the DO's power and the unsucessful attempt by aol AS to resist him.

If Rand wins the LB somehow and leaves that behind, then his victory may be very short lived. It would be almost as bad as leaving the taint behind.

unless it does have some strenghening effect on the pattern.

It should.

Its the high ranking officers and leaders who are comming into close contact with the Asha'man not some random farmer or merchant.

At TLB, they'll certainly be in contact with common soldiers and farmers. And the image the populace has of them could be telling there. Imagine soldiers who do not want to serve near ashaman!

Also recruiting ashaman from among the populace would be easier if people didn't see them as monsters.

In the long run as long as the Asha'man stick together in the BT it will sort itself out.

How? with their families? Remain in a camp for life? Will the BT isolate itself from the world perpetually?

no one aside from the Seanchan and the Shadow stand any chance of destroying them

Well we don't know the capabilities of sharans or the seafolk, but i suspect the WOs may number up to six thousand channelers. (At five hundred per clan) That enough to give the BT a hefty headache.

People in Andor might be still fearful of the Asha'man but they can't burn them out or drive them off so they will have to put up with them and eventually they will get used to having the BT there

Really? Like the jews got used to Arabs. Sorry.

Terez
11-07-2011, 06:46 PM
three become one = bond

two must be as one ≠ bond

greatwolf
11-07-2011, 06:48 PM
He can say that the Taint is gone, but he's been doing that anyway,

But he's never addressed the common folk on the issue (or any other except maybe al car dal)

It might help if AS started mentioning it, of course.

A proclamation from the WT seems to carry a lot of weight everywhere. And people are not robots or dense. Quite often they can tell truth without using the oath rod.