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View Full Version : Should Paterno be prosecuted too?


Kimon
11-06-2011, 10:13 AM
This is some incredibly damning information, and the Grand Jury Report is especially disturbing. Considering the length of time that Jerry Sandusky (a former PSU assistant coach) had been sexually assaulting these children (at least 8 boys over 15 years at PSU), that a Grad Assistant (in 2002) with the PSU football program reported that he saw one of these assaults, but unfortunately reported it only to Paterno and the the Athletic Director - both of whom did nothing about it, except apparently telling Sandusky to stop assaulting these kids on PSU property. The AD (Tim Curley) has been charged with perjury and failure to report, as was another PSU official (Gary Schultz). Yet Paterno knew about it too. Shouldn't he also be liable at least to the charge of failing to report a case of reported child abuse?

Here's a link to the Grand Jury Report (warning, it's long, and disturbing)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/documents/sandusky-grand-jury-report11052011.html

Davian93
11-06-2011, 11:57 AM
As a huge PSU fan....YES, YES HE SHOULD.

Sorry JoePa but you done fvcked up here.

Frenzy
11-06-2011, 01:31 PM
i don't know about Pennsylvania Law, but in Cali yes JP would be financially and criminally liable for not reporting the harassment/abuse. His employer would also be liable for his failure to act. i know this because i just finished my mandatory annual Harassment training, and they were very clear on this point.

My step-dad served 3 months on a grand jury reviewing child abuse/neglect cases. It really messed him up. So no thank you, i won't read the Grand jury report. Though i like my step-dad's idea of a emergency 24-hr daycare-type clinic for stressed-out parents at the end of their ropes to drop off their kids without fear for an hour or two while the parent gets themselves back under control, instead of having them snap and hurt their children. Many many cases of abuse and homicide could be prevented with something as simple as a little support while the parent takes a time-out.

But that's a different thread.

Rand al'Fain
11-07-2011, 05:07 AM
Either way, PSU is not getting out of this unscathed.

Davian93
11-07-2011, 07:12 AM
Either way, PSU is not getting out of this unscathed.

Its somewhat a shame this didnt happen 1-2 years ago. Had it come out then, we might have been able to shove Paterno out the door in favor of Al Golden. Golden wanted to take over for JoePa before he moved from Temple to Miami but JoePa wont leave. Golden turned a pathetic joke of a college team at temple into a very respectable program and he's a PSU Alum.

Too late now of course.

Crispin's Crispian
11-07-2011, 01:57 PM
Its somewhat a shame this didnt happen 1-2 years ago. Had it come out then, we might have been able to shove Paterno out the door in favor of Al Golden. Golden wanted to take over for JoePa before he moved from Temple to Miami but JoePa wont leave. Golden turned a pathetic joke of a college team at temple into a very respectable program and he's a PSU Alum.

Too late now of course.

Yeah, that really is a shame. Exploiting those boys again would have been really helpful.

The weird thing about the GJ report is that it never talks about an interview with Paterno. He was the middle man between the G.A. and the athletic director and VP, but he could have corroborated either side's "story."

Davian93
11-07-2011, 02:16 PM
Apparently, from what I've been reading and from talking to several PSU Alums that are following this very closely, JoePa did everything he was legally required to do as his report to the University VP (who also directed the campus police dept) satisfied his obligation for reporting under PA law.

Still, morally he should have followed up on this just a bit.

Ivhon
11-08-2011, 09:20 AM
Apparently, from what I've been reading and from talking to several PSU Alums that are following this very closely, JoePa did everything he was legally required to do as his report to the University VP (who also directed the campus police dept) satisfied his obligation for reporting under PA law.

Still, morally he should have followed up on this just a bit.

Been listening all morning and for YEARS after the reporting, JoPa welcomed Sandusky onto the field - with children. May skirt by legally, but if you know child abuse is happening and do nothing to stop it you are a dirtbag. End of story. Is he already in the HoF? Should be looked at...

Now....


I didn't know Penn State was a Catholic school...

Davian93
11-08-2011, 09:51 AM
Been listening all morning and for YEARS after the reporting, JoPa welcomed Sandusky onto the field - with children. May skirt by legally, but if you know child abuse is happening and do nothing to stop it you are a dirtbag. End of story. Is he already in the HoF? Should be looked at...

Now....


I didn't know Penn State was a Catholic school...


I pretty much agree. JoePa fulfilled his legal obligations but he seriously failed on his moral obligations.

One of my friends as well as his brother both played on the team during this time period. The friend was on the roster from 93-97 and his brother from 98-02 and both swear they had zero knowledge of anything going on and that there were no rumors at all about Sandusky at the time. The older friend was a teammate of Mike McQueary (the guy who witnessed the shower act) and friends with him. The friend also mentions he worked with Sandusky for a while at PSU and thought he was the nicest guy and a great coach too.

I take it with a grain of salt as its the whole "sanctity of the locker room" thing but who knows. I completely believe the abuse occurred and that Sandusky should go to PMITA prison for the rest of his short, miserable life.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 12:28 PM
Per the NYTimes, JoePa is finished at PSU and will be asked to leave his position as Head Coach.

61 years with the university and this is how it ends.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-said-to-be-planning-paternos-exit.html?_r=3

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 01:31 PM
I don't know what the laws on the books in Pennsylvania, but I think Paterno and the grad assistant should have been been prosecuted for failure to report. There is simply no excuse for having knowledge of the kind of incident the grad assistant witnessed and not reporting it to the police. None.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 01:42 PM
I don't know what the laws on the books in Pennsylvania, but I think Paterno and the grad assistant should have been been prosecuted for failure to report. There is simply no excuse for having knowledge of the kind of incident the grad assistant witnessed and not reporting it to the police. None.

Per PA law, JoePa satisfied his reporting obligation when he told the University VP who is also in charge of the university police dept (ie basically the Police Chief for PSU). That's why the DA didnt seek charges against him and has focused on Spanier and the others instead for failure to report as JoePa just barely satisfied his legal obligation per PA statutes. As a PA government employee, JoePa was also required to report the misconduct to his supervisor which of course is the Athletic Director...which he did do. The grad assistant (current WR Coach Mike McQueary) satisfied his requirements with his report to JoePa.

Legally correct, morally failing.

Ivhon
11-08-2011, 01:46 PM
I pretty much agree. JoePa fulfilled his legal obligations but he seriously failed on his moral obligations.

One of my friends as well as his brother both played on the team during this time period. The friend was on the roster from 93-97 and his brother from 98-02 and both swear they had zero knowledge of anything going on and that there were no rumors at all about Sandusky at the time. The older friend was a teammate of Mike McQueary (the guy who witnessed the shower act) and friends with him. The friend also mentions he worked with Sandusky for a while at PSU and thought he was the nicest guy and a great coach too.

I take it with a grain of salt as its the whole "sanctity of the locker room" thing but who knows. I completely believe the abuse occurred and that Sandusky should go to PMITA prison for the rest of his short, miserable life.

"sanctity of the locker room" extends ONLY so far as interpersonal problems, no further. There is zero case for privileged information in a GAME. MY ethics/laws on confidentiality - which is about as extensive as it gets in civilian life (especially in TX) - do not protect against not reporting this kind of thing. Bsolutely no excuse for the coach of a GAME not to do the right thing.

"sanctity of the locker room" my ass. We enable this shit by continually giving our sports "heros" a pass on stuff that would get any of the rest of us bent over a prison bunk for years.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 01:49 PM
"sanctity of the locker room" extends ONLY so far as interpersonal problems, no further. There is zero case for privileged information in a GAME. MY ethics/laws on confidentiality - which is about as extensive as it gets in civilian life (especially in TX) - do not protect against not reporting this kind of thing. Bsolutely no excuse for the coach of a GAME not to do the right thing.

"sanctity of the locker room" my ass. We enable this shit by continually giving our sports "heros" a pass on stuff that would get any of the rest of us bent over a prison bunk for years.

I meant it in the sense of my friend not being willing to be honest about if he heard any rumors at the time he was there and even worked with Sandusky...not about not reporting the actual misconduct.

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I just suspect my friend might not be being 100% honest about it.

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 03:03 PM
Great loophole he jumped through there. :rolleyes: The guy needs to be straight up fired. Though with the university president neck deep in this I don't know who would go about doing so.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Great loophole he jumped through there. :rolleyes: The guy needs to be straight up fired. Though with the university president neck deep in this I don't know who would go about doing so.

From the guy I know with contacts inside, the entire coaching staff is pretty much gone by the end of the week from JoePa on down. The former grad student/now WR coach is gone as well. The AD, VP, etc are all out too.

They're gonna clean house very shortly. You should google the Grand Jury report (or just click on the link in the first post of this thread)...its pretty damning for Sandusky and quite disturbing overall. 8 known victims and there are reports today that there might be more out there as the investigation is far from over.

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 03:20 PM
I did which is why I'm so pissed off about this. The grad student caught the shithead red handed sodomizing a ten year old he had pinned up against the school shower wall and his only response was to tell daddy and coach. What rational moral human being does that?! Here's a thought. Youre a grown man. Get in there and pull the pervert off the kid. Or hey theres this nifty little phone service. Its been around for a bit so maybe you've heard of it. Its called 911. Maybe you should try calling it! What utterly contemptable excuses for humanity the whole lot of them are.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 03:25 PM
I did which is why I'm so pissed off about this. The grad student caught the shithead red handed sodomizing a ten year old he had pinned up against the school shower wall and his only response was to tell daddy and coach. What rational moral human being does that?! Here's a thought. Youre a grown man. Get in there and pull the pervert off the kid. Or hey theres this nifty little phone service. Its been around for a bit so maybe you've heard of it. Its called 911. Maybe you should try calling it! What utterly contemptable excuses for humanity the whole lot of them are.


I agree. I'll give him maybe a little slack because he had known Sandusky his entire life (his dad was a coach there too and they lived on the same block) so it was probably a pretty major shocker to see a trusted father figure doing that. If fvcked up the janitor who didnt even know Sandusky too and neither man tried to break it up.

Still, you need to grow a pair there and stop that type of indecency when you see it...not run and call daddy.

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 07:11 PM
The more I read about this the more it drives me nuts. Regarding Sandusky's actions, they read like he took it straight out of the child molestor playbook, aka grooming behavior. For those not familiar, here's a pretty good run down.

http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/grooming.html

It begins when the predator chooses a target area. He may visit places where children are likely to go

You mean like running a foundation for disadvantaged youth?

Victim selection and recruitment are next. There is no prototypical victim of child sexual abuse. Any child may be victimized. Not surprisingly, predators often target children with obvious vulnerabilities.

Hmmm, I wonder if at risk youth qualify.

Predators engage or "recruit" their victims in different ways. Many use a combination of forced teaming and charm. They may offer to play games, give rides, or buy treats and gifts as tokens of friendship.

Like trips to Penn State games, sleep overs at Coach's house, and private workouts?

Predators use the grooming process to break down a child's defenses and increase the child's acceptance of touch. The first physical contact between predator and victim is often nonsexual touching designed to identify limits: an "accidental" touch, an arm around the shoulder, a brushing of hair. Nonsexual touching desensitizes the child. It breaks down inhibitions and leads to more overt sexual touching—the predator's ultimate goal.

Like bear hugs, wrestling, blowing bubbles on a child's stomach and touching the thigh in the car maybe?

A predator will usually introduce secrecy at some point during the grooming process. Initially, secrecy binds the victim to the predator: "Here's some candy. But don't tell your friends because they'll be jealous, and don't tell your mother because she won't like you eating between meals." Later on, secrecy joins hands with threats: "If you tell your mother what happened, she'll hate you. It'll kill her. Or I'll kill her. Or I'll kill you.

Such as I'll stop inviting you to football games and camps if you tell anyone or try to stop what I'm doing to you perhaps?

Terez
11-08-2011, 07:51 PM
Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that he had like 8 adopted children and also took in a steady flow of foster children? Also, isn't it just a little bit fucked up that he wrote a book called 'Touched'?

Davian93
11-08-2011, 08:41 PM
Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that he had like 8 adopted children and also took in a steady flow of foster children? Also, isn't it just a little bit fucked up that he wrote a book called 'Touched'?

His ice cream flavor at the PSU Creamery was Bananas with chocolate and a caramel swirl...the name was "Sandusky Blitz". You cant make this sh!t up.

From what 2 separate PSU friends have told me, the 8 current victims are apparently just the tip of the iceberg and that this is going to get far, far worse before it gets better. The rumors flying around State College are very bad apparently.

No way in hell he just started molesting in the 1990s and that's as far back as they've gotten victims so far.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 09:02 PM
The list of victims is apparently up to 20 names now...from 8 on Sunday.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/number-of-victims-in-sandusky-sex-case-reportedly-nearing-20/related/

Like I said, tip of the damn iceberg.

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 09:05 PM
I hope they are able to ID the victims in counts II and VII. Those are the two big ones that need to be prosecuted to sustain the others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the indictment represented to the grand jury either.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 09:11 PM
I hope they are able to ID the victims in counts II and VII. Those are the two big ones that need to be prosecuted to sustain the others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the indictment represented to the grand jury either.

Is one of those the shower rape that the GA walked in on? Because they've IDed him and the mother of the victim was on local tv in PA basically destroying Mike McQueary for his failure to call the police after witnessing it. I mean, massively, epically destroying him.

I have no interest in rereading the grand jury report again to confirm...

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 09:17 PM
Yes, and the other is the janitor that walked in on him in the shower. That is good. That count alone should be enough to convict him.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 09:20 PM
Yes, and the other is the janitor that walked in on him in the shower. That is good. That count alone should be enough to convict him.

Is there a statute of limitations on that sort of crime or is it waived in cases where its a minor? I vaguely recall that being an issue with some of the priest abuse cases...hence the reason they went the civil court route with many of them IIRC.

Needless to say, PSU's $1 Billion endowment will be taking a hefty hit regardless of how many years Sandusky gets in PMITA prison.

Ozymandias
11-08-2011, 09:28 PM
Dav and others seem to have nailed it. Paterno should not be prosecuted, as he did all that he was legally obligated to do. It does give PSU a good excuse to boot him, as he has been particularly ineffective for a while now, but aside from that it will tarnish his legacy beyond repair. Besides turning Penn State into a football powerhouse almost singlehandedly, JoePa's great legacy was his unbending moral stance. As many sportswriters have pointed out, he has never been touched by NCAA violations or scandals as so many other football factories have been... its a shame this happened under his watch, and morally, you have to criticize him.

But no, he certainly should not be criticized. Not doing the moral thing is far different than committing a criminal act.

Davian93
11-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Dav and others seem to have nailed it. Paterno should not be prosecuted, as he did all that he was legally obligated to do. It does give PSU a good excuse to boot him, as he has been particularly ineffective for a while now, but aside from that it will tarnish his legacy beyond repair. Besides turning Penn State into a football powerhouse almost singlehandedly, JoePa's great legacy was his unbending moral stance. As many sportswriters have pointed out, he has never been touched by NCAA violations or scandals as so many other football factories have been... its a shame this happened under his watch, and morally, you have to criticize him.

But no, he certainly should not be criticized. Not doing the moral thing is far different than committing a criminal act.

All that and yet this is likely the worst scandal to ever hit a Division 1 school. This will likely be worse for their program than Marshall's plane crash was for theirs.

NCAA has no basis to punish them but it doesnt matter...just the news coverage alone is the equivalent of dozens of lost scholarships.

Sinistrum
11-08-2011, 09:39 PM
Don't know about Penn, but in Texas, its 10 years after a person's 18th birthday.

Ivhon
11-08-2011, 10:25 PM
Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that he had like 8 adopted children and also took in a steady flow of foster children? Also, isn't it just a little bit fucked up that he wrote a book called 'Touched'?

He almost certainly was. Probably by one of his coaches...

Ivhon
11-08-2011, 10:39 PM
But no, he certainly should not be criticized. Not doing the moral thing is far different than committing a criminal act.

Sorry. Who are you to tell me who I can and can't criticize? We criticize people all the time around here for things FAR less consequential than abetting a child rapist.

I'll criticize the hell out of him whether or not he broke any laws.

If you welcome someone you know or should know is an untreated, unprosecuted child rapist to your table (or football locker room, in Paterno's case), you are a dirtbag. Plain and simple.

Has he been proven in court to have broken any laws? Not yet. And as such he shouldn't go to jail. Nevertheless, I will criticize his morals, his ethics and his character until the cows come home. I will also, for many of the same reasons, criticize Michael Jackson (may he rot in hell), OJ, Casey Anthony, the Pope and any number of other people who are dirtbags despite not having been convicted of a crime.

Hero worship all you like, but the man is scum.

EDIT: changed "molester" to "rapist" to more accurately reflect the severity of this situation.

AbbeyRoad
11-08-2011, 11:50 PM
What about the University VP and Athletic Director? At least Paterno notified his superiors; those 2 were apparently informed of the situation and did nothing about it...

Terez
11-08-2011, 11:56 PM
That's why they have been charged. From what I understand, they turned themselves in yesterday.

Davian93
11-09-2011, 08:04 AM
What about the University VP and Athletic Director? At least Paterno notified his superiors; those 2 were apparently informed of the situation and did nothing about it...

That's not true...they did lots of things:

1. Dismiss McQueary's story.
2. Bury the evidence.
3. Actively didn't question anyone or run any sort of real investigation.
4. Engaged in a coverup to prevent embarrassment of the program and university.

etc
etc.

Its unfair to say they did nothing here.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2011, 08:10 AM
That's not true...they did lots of things:

1. Dismiss McQueary's story.
2. Bury the evidence.
3. Actively didn't question anyone or run any sort of real investigation.
4. Engaged in a coverup to prevent embarrassment of the program and university.

etc
etc.

Its unfair to say they did nothing here.One would almost think they were Roman Catholics. But that's probably religious profiling. I'm sure such activity can also be displayed by those who aren't members of the "mother church".

Terez
11-09-2011, 08:25 AM
I didn't know Penn State was a Catholic school...
One would almost think they were Roman Catholics.
Too slow.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2011, 10:43 AM
Too slow.Well, then, in that case, it is just an example of the Judeo-Christian culture which is supposed to be so good, isn't it?

Ivhon
11-09-2011, 11:09 AM
Paterno's statement talks ONLY of protecting and serving the University. Not the victims. Nothing different than the whole last 10 years when he did nothing so that the University would not be embarrassed.

And he has chosen to step down at the end of the season.

Not good enough.

Davian93
11-09-2011, 11:59 AM
Lets be clear here though...the real A-holes are the AD, VP and University President. JoePa shouldn't be the sole scapegoat in all this.

Sinistrum
11-09-2011, 12:12 PM
Sure thats true davian and the charity that sandusky was using is also at fault. The real problem is that those associated with the university, but most especially paterno, are using the status and power of their positions to shield themselves from the rightful consequences of their actions. Paterno shouldn't be allowed to retire at the end of the year. He should be fired, immediately. Same with spanier and mcqueady. None of them are manning up and taking responsibility and joepa is the most visable symbol of that. What they are doing now is the same damn thing they did in 2002 and its a symptom of the same damn greed, arrogance, power intoxication, and lack of human decency that got them in this mess to begin with. In behaving the way they are they are showing zero remorse for anything they've done or didn't do. Once again joepa is the most visable example of this.

Ivhon
11-09-2011, 12:22 PM
Lets be clear here though...the real A-holes are the AD, VP and University President. JoePa shouldn't be the sole scapegoat in all this.

He should not. The AD, VP and University President are far more culpable - as are, arguably, the McQuearys

However, he should not walk away scott free. Which is what retiring at the end of the year on his own terms entails. Make no mistake, Paterno's actions were motivated by University first, his friend second....the children were an afterthought. The retirement statement - thoroughly vetted by University lawyers as it undoubtedly was - only reinforces his top priority.

I would have been satisfied - and probably would have applauded - "I wish I would have done more (he went this far). I did not, therefore I am retiring effective immediately and will spend the rest of my life working to make sure that nothing like this happens to defenseless children anywhere else (instead of continuing to serve the University - to which his service indirectly contributed to the current situation)."

What he did is damage control, nothing more.

Now. The AD, VP and President will be fired (as opposed to being allowed to resign on their own terms) and face criminal and ultimately civil charges - as they should.

It is unknown what the McQuearys face - both son and father need to account for walking away from a child being RAPED in front of him on the one hand, and telling the son to leave the building and come do damage control on the other. Why not HELP THE POOR KID?!?!

So I'll be clear. Paterno has the least culpability of all the players involved. However, he is essentially being given a pass because of his accomplishments in coaching a GAME. He does not deserve that pass.

EDIT: As it stands, all of the other key players are earning the scorn of the public as well as whatever criminal and civil repercussions may follow. Paterno still has a bunch of (misguided) apologists that persist in seeing him as a hero for his accomplishments around a GAME. He doesn't deserve it.

EDIT EDIT: Not sure what it means when I am lockstep with Sini on a hardline stance on this stuff.

Davian93
11-09-2011, 12:44 PM
JoePa has done a ton of good for things far beyond just a GAME. Give him some credit in that regard.

He needs to leave this week but he shouldn't be the scapegoat and that is what the PSU administration and Board of Trustees is attempting to do to save their own asses.

My biggest disgust is with McQueary, his father, the janitor, the cops who interviewed Sandusky back in 1998 and merely told him "Now dont go showering with boys again" instead of investigating, the AD, the VP, Spanier, etc etc...everyone involved in a massive coverup. Odds are, this goes far far deeper than even 20 victims. I would bet on hundreds going all the way back into the 1970s and I wouldn't be shocked if former players were among them. I also wouldn't be shocked if McQueary was also a victim at some point as he grew up next to Sandusky, their fathers were friends/co-workers, he was friends with the adopted kids and likely spent the night at his house too. That would go a long way towards explaining his inability to act when he saw it happening to another kid.

JoePa is like 20th on my list of "This guy is culpable". For all we know, he was told by the AD and VP that they had done an investigation and the accusation was baseless. The problem is we simply don't know what happened after JoePa reported to them and we likely never will as both individuals have already allegedly lied under oath to the Grand Jury and are facing charges.

Davian93
11-09-2011, 01:03 PM
Breaking News has Spanier gone today. He's been fired by the Board of Trustees apparently.

Its a start.

fdsaf3
11-09-2011, 01:11 PM
I don't know enough about what's going on to have an opinion, but my gut reaction is that the university is going to act to make it look like it's doing something. It's way too late, obviously, but at least it's doing X, Y, and Z!

I'm just hoping that all the victims are able to come forward and the full nature of this comes to light so that anyone affected can start the healing process. I have a distant family member who was convicted of child molestation, and it really sent ripples throughout the community. This event seems like it's multiple levels beyond what my family member did.

Bottom line for me is that the University can do whatever it wants to take steps to fire or discipline the relevant parties. But the most important thing is creating an atmosphere of healing for the victims. I just hope that this process doesn't become more about Penn State or the football program than it is about a sick individual and the actual victims of the abuse.

Ivhon
11-09-2011, 01:30 PM
I just hope that this process doesn't become more about Penn State or the football program than it is about a sick individual and the actual victims of the abuse.

This has been and continues to be the problem.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-09-2011, 03:35 PM
This has been and continues to be the problem.

THIS.

Sinistrum
11-09-2011, 06:20 PM
I just hope that this process doesn't become more about Penn State or the football program than it is about a sick individual and the actual victims of the abuse.

And it will continue to be a problem so long as the current Penn State power structure remains in tact. That's why everyone involved needs to be removed. It was them thinking of the university and the football program that led to the cover up in the first place.

Uno
11-09-2011, 09:26 PM
Dash it, if you witness what amounts to rape of underage people, don't go to your superior, go to the police. It's a criminal, not an administrative, matter.

Kimon
11-09-2011, 10:15 PM
Dash it, if you witness what amounts to rape of underage people, don't go to your superior, go to the police. It's a criminal, not an administrative, matter.

What's sickening is that they did. Gary Schultz was the overseer of the campus police, and he helped cover up what had happened. This should have all come to light in 1998, or at the very least in 2002 when McQueary reported on it again. They facilitated this sexual predator all in what clearly seems to have been an attempt to safeguard the integrity and reputation of the football team.

Ivhon
11-09-2011, 10:27 PM
What's sickening is that they did. Gary Schultz was the overseer of the campus police, and he helped cover up what had happened. This should have all come to light in 1998, or at the very least in 2002 when McQueary reported on it again. They facilitated this sexual predator all in what clearly seems to have been an attempt to safeguard the integrity and reputation of the football team.

What's sickening is that it takes this kind of thing to bring to light what happens all the time at most universities. Namely, sweeping rape under the rug because it makes the school look bad.

EDIT: Paterno fired.

Kimon
11-09-2011, 11:04 PM
EDIT: Paterno fired.

University President Graham Spanier also has been forced to resign.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7214380/joe-paterno-president-graham-spanier-penn-state

fdsaf3
11-09-2011, 11:30 PM
In a perfect world, ESPN would stop reporting on all of this mess. To me, this isn't a sports story any more. This is something way, way bigger.

Just my two cents. I know ESPN is going to keep running stories and overdoing the coverage, though.

Yellowbeard
11-09-2011, 11:35 PM
Probably been said already, but Mcquary in 2002 interrupting a live-in action-happening right then occurrence of a 10-year old boy being sexually abused, and he just walked away? Reports it the next day to university admin?

If I'm in that situation, I'm not worried about who the proper chain of command is, and what not. In the heat of a moment like that...I AM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. I would not have left the child there with him, and Sandusky would have been...disabled...so the cops would know right where to find him to arrest him.

I think the cops in that situation would have no problem writing into the arrest report that he must have slipped in the shower trying to escape and broke both his legs in the fall.

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 12:06 AM
About damn time Joepa and Spanier got the boot. Now McQueady needs to go and that charity just needs to be shut down.

Terez
11-10-2011, 12:17 AM
I'm wondering how the wife isn't complicit.

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 12:25 AM
I'm wondering how the wife isn't complicit.

Who's? Sandusky's? All I will say on that is its wise never to underestimate the power of self-delusion.

In other news, the Penn State students are rioting and turning over news media trucks. So one old man who was complicit in almost a decade and a half of child abuse gets fired, and their response is to riot? Stay classy Penn State. What a bunch of idiots.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2011, 05:27 AM
If I'm in that situation, I'm not worried about who the proper chain of command is, and what not. In the heat of a moment like that...I AM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. I would not have left the child there with him, and Sandusky would have been...disabled...so the cops would know right where to find him to arrest him.Assuming, of course, that you won the fight. If not ...

Davian93
11-10-2011, 08:26 AM
Who's? Sandusky's? All I will say on that is its wise never to underestimate the power of self-delusion.

In other news, the Penn State students are rioting and turning over news media trucks. So one old man who was complicit in almost a decade and a half of child abuse gets fired, and their response is to riot? Stay classy Penn State. What a bunch of idiots.

Yeah...it makes TOTAL sense that JoePa was fired before Curly...the guy actually INDICTED for perjury in a coverup. TOTAL SENSE.

Give me a fvcking break here...JoePa is being scapegoated for what the AD and VP did.

McQueary has a chance to stop the abuse in process and runs off to daddy...yet he'll be on the sideline on Saturday. Yeah, the right guys got punished in this one.

Ishara
11-10-2011, 09:09 AM
If I'm in that situation, I'm not worried about who the proper chain of command is, and what not. In the heat of a moment like that...I AM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. I would not have left the child there with him, and Sandusky would have been...disabled...so the cops would know right where to find him to arrest him.

I think the cops in that situation would have no problem writing into the arrest report that he must have slipped in the shower trying to escape and broke both his legs in the fall.

This made me inhale coffee. FYI.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 09:53 AM
So...its starting to look like the initial scandal was not even close to the worst part of all this:

Allegation: Sandusky "Pimped Out" Kids (http://phillysportsdaily.com/college/2011/11/10/allegation-sandusky-pimped-out-kids/)

If true...WTF Penn State, WTF!!!

Terez
11-10-2011, 10:05 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:10 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html

The rumor on campus at the time was that it was gambling/mafia related.



Here's a great article on Sandusky from this April: http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/madden-sandusky-a-state-secret/article_863d3c82-5e6f-11e0-9ae5-001a4bcf6878.html

The article comments are pretty funny...especially the ones from April ripping the author for daring to slander the great Jerry Sandusky.

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 10:11 AM
So because some of us agree that joepa deserved consequences and deserved what he ultimately got that somehow equates to thinking the rest of them deserve a free pass? I smell a logical fallacy. Look I've said it before and I'll say it again. Joepa was the most VISABLE person in this. It makes absolute sense to get rid of him first and then deal with everyone else.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:17 AM
So because some of us agree that joepa deserved consequences and deserved what he ultimately got that somehow equates to thinking the rest of them deserve a free pass? I smell a logical fallacy. Look I've said it before and I'll say it again. Joepa was the most VISABLE person in this. It makes absolute sense to get rid of him first and then deal with everyone else.

How do you justify not firing the guy legally culpable to the point of being indicted first? JoePa needs to go but McQueary and Curly should have been gone first or at worst at the same time.

They also fired him over the phone...total classless move to a guy who has been at the university for 61 years.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-10-2011, 10:28 AM
OK, why in the hell did the students riot over this?

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 10:33 AM
How do you justify not firing the guy legally culpable to the point of being indicted first? JoePa needs to go but McQueary and Curly should have been gone first or at worst at the same time.

They also fired him over the phone...total classless move to a guy who has been at the university for 61 years.

Because its damage control and lawsuit mitigation by the university. Instead of progressively moving up the line to the more visible players - which looks reactive - Penn State gets to pretend that they are taking strong, swift, decisive action. "Look how seriously we are taking this! We are soooooo horrified by what happened that we are taking the strong and pro-active disciplinary action of firing the great Joe Paterno! Yesyes! We are serious about rectifying our mistake! *pleasedontsueus*"

Cynical and all that it is, thats how the world works. In the end, Paterno deserved to be fired. No doubt McQuary will be fired shortly as well. It just doesn't look as dramatic to start at the bottom and move up as it does to start at the top.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:39 AM
Funny, the victims seem to think PSU shouldn't have fired Paterno:

Penn State board of trustees 'got it wrong,' says attorney advising Jerry Sandusky's alleged victims


Enlarge JOE HERMITT, The Patriot-News Penn State coach Joe Paterno and his wife Sue on the front porch of their house, address students after Penn State University Board of Trustees announced the resigning of president Graham Spanier and firing of football coach Joe Paterno. Paterno announced his retirement at the end of the season earlier Wednesday. JOE HERMITT, The Patriot-News Joe Paterno fired by Penn State University Board of Trustees gallery (24 photos)


A Harrisburg civil attorney who has been advising some of the alleged victims of former Penn State defensive coach Jerry Sandusky released a statement today about the board of trustees action last night firing coach Joe Paterno."The board of trustees got it wrong. They should have consulted the victims before making a decision on Mr. Paterno," Ben Andreozzi said. "They should have considered these victims watch TV and are aware of the students' reaction and may not want to be associated with the downfall of Mr. Paterno. The school instead elected to do what it felt was in its own best interest at the time. Isnít that what put the school in this position in the first place?"
Andreozzi is working with Let Go Let Peace Come In, an organization providing services to child sex abuse victims, which is offering free counseling to the alleged victims.
"The way the Board reached its decision raises more concerns than the decision itself. There is no indication the Board considered the impact of the decision on the abuse victims," Andreozzi continued. "The school let the victims down once, and I think they owed it to the victims to at least gauge how the immediate termination decision would impact them as opposed to Mr. Paterno's resignation at the end of the year. These victims do not live in a bubble.

"They see the students reaction to the termination, and to think this does not weigh on their minds would be naive."

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:40 AM
OK, why in the hell did the students riot over this?

Because they recognize a screw job when they see it. Paterno is being destroyed for something that Sandusky, Curly and the University VP are guilty of. Its easier to destroy an icon than punish the actual wrongdoers.

Terez
11-10-2011, 10:42 AM
They're all guilty. The timing of their firings means little, though I don't see why they couldn't fire them all at once.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Because they recognize a screw job when they see it. Paterno is being destroyed for something that Sandusky, Curly and the University VP are guilty of. Its easier to destroy an icon than punish the actual wrongdoers.

I remember college. I don't think the students are being that logical.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:44 AM
I remember college. I don't think the students are being that logical.

I dont think a non-Penn Stater, non-Pennsylvanian can appreciate the level of respect and awe that Joe Paterno has in the state and in Happy Valley. He's probably the most beloved figure in the history of the state and a living legend.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 10:47 AM
I dont think a non-Penn Stater, non-Pennsylvanian can appreciate the level of respect and awe that Joe Paterno has in the state and in Happy Valley. He's probably the most beloved figure in the history of the state and a living legend.

Ah. So its ok for him to be complicit in all this because he's a living legend. Not ok for everybody else. But if you win enough football games something of this magnitude shouldn't touch you. Gotcha.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 10:49 AM
Ah. So its ok for him to be complicit in all this because he's a living legend. Not ok for everybody else. But if you win enough football games something of this magnitude shouldn't touch you. Gotcha.

Was he complicit? Was that proved? Last I checked, it wasn't. He got a report, he gave it to the Commissioner of Police. That commissioner and a university VP were both charged with perjury, not JoePa. For all we know, JoePa followed up and was told that their investigation didnt find anything. There is ZERO proof that JoePa did anything other than what he was supposed to do when he immediately told the Commissioner of police for the University.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 11:27 AM
Was he complicit? Was that proved? Last I checked, it wasn't. He got a report, he gave it to the Commissioner of Police. That commissioner and a university VP were both charged with perjury, not JoePa. For all we know, JoePa followed up and was told that their investigation didnt find anything. There is ZERO proof that JoePa did anything other than what he was supposed to do when he immediately told the Commissioner of police for the University.

Here is his fireable offense: Conduct unbecoming to an employee of Penn State University and the State of Pennsylvania.

The legal standard is the lowest there is. He passed that. He failed ethically and morally and in terms of at-will employment that is justification for termination. By your estimation (as stated several times in this thread) and Paterno's own admission - he didn't do enough. That right there is justification for the firing. Yes you are right, his culpability is relatively low on the scale, but every. single. person. involved in this needs to go. And Im quite sure they will. And if they don't I will join with you in righteous indignation.

Long and short of it, Paterno fucked up enough to lose his job. Winning a lot of football games does NOT buy you out of this.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-10-2011, 11:30 AM
Here is his fireable offense: Conduct unbecoming to an employee of Penn State University and the State of Pennsylvania.

The legal standard is the lowest there is. He passed that. He failed ethically and morally and in terms of at-will employment that is justification for termination. By your estimation (as stated several times in this thread) and Paterno's own admission - he didn't do enough. That right there is justification for the firing. Yes you are right, his culpability is relatively low on the scale, but every. single. person. involved in this needs to go. And Im quite sure they will. And if they don't I will join with you in righteous indignation.

Long and short of it, Paterno fucked up enough to lose his job. Winning a lot of football games does NOT buy you out of this.

Yeah, I'm with Ivhon. Being a "living legend" doesn't excuse the negligence here. And yes, everyone involved needs to face some sort of disciplinary action at least, criminal negligence at most.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 11:47 AM
Yeah, I'm with Ivhon. Being a "living legend" doesn't excuse the negligence here. And yes, everyone involved needs to face some sort of disciplinary action at least, criminal negligence at most.

I think it completely depends on what level of coverup was conducted by the AD and VP. They very well might have lied to JoePa's face and then buried it. JoePa was a 75 year old man when the accusation occurred. He did what he thought he was supposed to do and what the investigating DA has said he was supposed to do. Even the victims say JoePa shouldn't have been fired.

All the while, everyone is ignoring the actual rapist in all this in Sandusky.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-10-2011, 11:48 AM
I think it completely depends on what level of coverup was conducted by the AD and VP. They very well might have lied to JoePa's face and then buried it. JoePa was a 75 year old man when the accusation occurred. He did what he thought he was supposed to do and what the investigating DA has said he was supposed to do. Even the victims say JoePa shouldn't have been fired.

All the while, everyone is ignoring the actual rapist in all this in Sandusky.

Why isn't he in jail?

Davian93
11-10-2011, 11:50 AM
Why isn't he in jail?

Because he posted $100K in bail as required by the judge.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-10-2011, 12:07 PM
Because he posted $100K in bail as required by the judge.

That's a dumbassed judge.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 12:16 PM
Is Sandusky on suicide watch?

Davian93
11-10-2011, 12:24 PM
Is Sandusky on suicide watch?

He's at home on bail. Hopefully he'll grow a pair and swallow a handgun shortly.

It would be cleaner than what awaits him in prison.


As for the judge...yeah, I have no idea why he's allowed out on bail and what the conditions of that bail are (ankle bracelet?, monitored, etc). $100K isn't exactly a lot of money for him either or for the severity of the alleged crime.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 12:30 PM
He's at home on bail. Hopefully he'll grow a pair and swallow a handgun shortly.

It would be cleaner than what awaits him in prison.


As for the judge...yeah, I have no idea why he's allowed out on bail and what the conditions of that bail are (ankle bracelet?, monitored, etc). $100K isn't exactly a lot of money for him either or for the severity of the alleged crime.

As he is not my client (and I am clearly not fit to work with sexual predators), I'm not interested in what is best and easiest for him. Therefore I want him to stand trial and go to jail.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 12:38 PM
As he is not my client (and I am clearly not fit to work with sexual predators), I'm not interested in what is best and easiest for him. Therefore I want him to stand trial and go to jail.

It would be nice to know the full extent of what happened...something we wont get without a full trial and no plea bargaining crap.

It should be intersting to see if the Child Pimping charges are corroborated too. I suspect they are accurate and that will turn it into a vast conspiracy of child rape by a supposed charity.

Ishara
11-10-2011, 01:16 PM
I think it completely depends on what level of coverup was conducted by the AD and VP. They very well might have lied to JoePa's face and then buried it. JoePa was a 75 year old man when the accusation occurred. He did what he thought he was supposed to do and what the investigating DA has said he was supposed to do. Even the victims say JoePa shouldn't have been fired.All the while, everyone is ignoring the actual rapist in all this in Sandusky.

But Dav, it seems from that statement that didn't want him to be fired because they fear the backlash. These victims don't live in a bubble, nor are they stupid. They know full well how popular the man is, and what a blow it will be to the school/ team/ state/ whatever. By firing him and not acting against Sandusky first, the victims stand to be "blamed" for his termination.

What I don't undersdtand, and forgive me because I flat out refuse to read the original document, is why Sandusky wasn't fired as soon as the Grand Jury issue began? If we had a client who was charged with anything that significant, we'd fire them first and figure it out later. If he's proven innocent and files a claim for his job back, fine, we'll talk, but we'd have a DAMN fine argument for saying that his conduct was enough to irreparably harm the reputation of his employer and that the employment relationship is irreperably broken.

Why didn't Penn State do this and cut their losses before it became a published document?!

fdsaf3
11-10-2011, 01:16 PM
Here's a hypothetical question that came up between a friend and me last night. Note that this is supposed to be a hypothetical and is not intended to posit an alternative explanation of what happened.

Here we go.

Suppose Paterno heard of the suspected child molestation incident in 1998 or 2002 (can't remember off the top of my head when he is supposed to have heard about it for the first time). Now suppose that Joe Paterno called up his lawyer and asked him what his obligations were as a football coach, faculty member of Penn State, etc. Now suppose that his lawyer gives him the advice to submit a report alerting his superiors (AD, President, whoever) of the possible molestation.

If that's how it went down, would Joe Paterno be off the hook now? Meaning, if he got legal advice and followed it, does that mitigate his moral responsibility? My friend and I had a lively discussion about this last night, and I'd be interested to know what some of you think (especially those of you legally trained people out there!).

For what it's worth, I still do not know enough facts about this case to have an opinion. I do believe, however, that firing Paterno seems more like a topical fix than anything meant to actually remedy the situation.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2011, 01:17 PM
What I don't undersdtand, and forgive me because I flat out refuse to read the original document, is why Sandusky wasn't fired as soon as the Grand Jury issue began? If we had a client who was charged with anything that significant, we'd fire them first and figure it out later. If he's proven innocent and files a claim for his job back, fine, we'll talk, but we'd have a DAMN fine argument for saying that his conduct was enough to irreparably harm the reputation of his employer and that the employment relationship is irreperably broken.

Why didn't Penn State do this and cut their losses before it became a published document?!
He was already retired at that point. He was allowed to use University facilities as an emeritus, and for his non-profit organization.

Ishara
11-10-2011, 01:20 PM
He was already retired at that point. He was allowed to use University facilities as an emeritus, and for his non-profit organization.

Ah. helpful. But still, cut his access at minimum and issue a statement about cutting said access to cover your ass! This Employer is not getting good advice...

Davian93
11-10-2011, 01:26 PM
Ah. helpful. But still, cut his access at minimum and issue a statement about cutting said access to cover your ass! This Employer is not getting good advice...

Which is why Spanier and Curley should have been the first to go. JoePa is just the visible head of the football program, not the university, not the Athletic Department. And, in all honestly, he's a figurehead and nothing more. He hasn't been a day to day manager in over 15 years from what people in the program tell me. He's a tired 84 year old man who will likely die within a month now as a result of losing the one thing that meant anything at all to him. Even at the time of the initial accusation, he was just a figurehead.

Also, he's not legendary because he won games at PSU. He's legendary because of all the things he did off the field. The time he committed, the focus he put on academics over athletics, the charities he built, the money he gave to the university and other causes, etc etc. He was also the lowest paid coach of any major program by a significant margin. Most top programs guys make $2-4 million if not more. He made something like $300 K a year and gave a ton of it back to the school in various grants.

McQueary walks in on an ongoing rape and runs away...still has his job.

JoePa reports the crime to the Commissioner of Police...gets fired and pilloried by the nation.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Here's a hypothetical question that came up between a friend and me last night. Note that this is supposed to be a hypothetical and is not intended to posit an alternative explanation of what happened.

Here we go.

Suppose Paterno heard of the suspected child molestation incident in 1998 or 2002 (can't remember off the top of my head when he is supposed to have heard about it for the first time). Now suppose that Joe Paterno called up his lawyer and asked him what his obligations were as a football coach, faculty member of Penn State, etc. Now suppose that his lawyer gives him the advice to submit a report alerting his superiors (AD, President, whoever) of the possible molestation.

If that's how it went down, would Joe Paterno be off the hook now? Meaning, if he got legal advice and followed it, does that mitigate his moral responsibility? My friend and I had a lively discussion about this last night, and I'd be interested to know what some of you think (especially those of you legally trained people out there!).

For what it's worth, I still do not know enough facts about this case to have an opinion. I do believe, however, that firing Paterno seems more like a topical fix than anything meant to actually remedy the situation.

legal responsibility < ethical responsibility < moral responsibility

That's what seems to be the point of this thread. There are those involved in this case that have (Sandusky) or seem to have (AD, VP, President) clearly failed in their legal responsibilities.

What makes this an interesting debate is not the guys who are the biggest scumbags, here - that is pretty cut and dry. It is the divergence of ethics, morals and law surrounding Paterno himself. Paterno did nothing illegal - he fulfilled his legal obligations based on what we know. On that we all pretty much agree.

The question is whether or not Paterno (a man whose reputation in large part is built on being perceived as a moral and ethical figure) failed in his ethical and moral responsibilities and whether it is appropriate that he suffer social (as opposed to legal) penalties for those failings. Also, whether or not the actions that built his reputation as a man of character or that made him the winningest football coach ever should absolve him of those selfsame ethical and moral responsibilities.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 01:36 PM
Ihvon, how does your opinion change if it comes out that Curley and Schultz lied to JoePa about their investigation and told him nothing came of it?

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 01:43 PM
Which is why Spanier and Curley should have been the first to go. JoePa is just the visible head of the football program, not the university, not the Athletic Department. And, in all honestly, he's a figurehead and nothing more. He hasn't been a day to day manager in over 15 years from what people in the program tell me. He's a tired 84 year old man who will likely die within a month now as a result of losing the one thing that meant anything at all to him. Even at the time of the initial accusation, he was just a figurehead.

Also, he's not legendary because he won games at PSU. He's legendary because of all the things he did off the field. The time he committed, the focus he put on academics over athletics, the charities he built, the money he gave to the university and other causes, etc etc. He was also the lowest paid coach of any major program by a significant margin. Most top programs guys make $2-4 million if not more. He made something like $300 K a year and gave a ton of it back to the school in various grants.

McQueary walks in on an ongoing rape and runs away...still has his job.

JoePa reports the crime to the Commissioner of Police...gets fired and pilloried by the nation.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I agree with everything but the bolded. Paterno is getting pilloried by the nation, sure. But so far as I can see on the reporting and in this thread, less so than anyone else - as it should be. His culpability is lower than the janitor, the McQuearys (however you spell it), the administration characters and Sandusky.

That said, he still made a severe lapse in judgment that easily justifies his termination.

That McQueary hasn't been fired yet or the order of firings is, IMO, entirely irrelevant. To say that Paterno shouldn't be fired because McQueary wasn't fired is like arguing that the guy who drove the getaway car shouldn't be tried and jailed because the guy who carried the gun and robbed the bank hasn't been convicted yet.

And yes, you are absolutely right that the discussion of Paterno distracts from Sandusky. However - for the reasons I listed in the above post - it just isn't an interesting debate because there is no...debate.

Protagonist: Sandusky is a dirtbag perv that deserves to die!
Antagonist: And be raped in jail!
Pro: Yeah!
Ant: Yeah!
Pro: Okay
Ant: Ummm....next thread?

This is interesting and dominates conversation because that is where the gray area that we have to examine within ourselves lies. Answers aren't necessarily clear and we have to figure out how we feel in all this context through dialogue.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Was it still a lapse in judgement if that same Police Commissioner came back to him and said the complaint was bogus? That's the part that none of us know. We simply do not know what feedback, if any, JoePa ever received from the initial complaint to Curley and Schultz. He also probably thought it would be dumb to confront Sandusky during what was supposedly an open investigation against him.

Once JoePa is able legally to provide his side of the story I think it behooves us to hear him out and not condemn the man.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 01:59 PM
Ihvon, how does your opinion change if it comes out that Curley and Schultz lied to JoePa about their investigation and told him nothing came of it?

It doesn't really.

I am a figure in the public eye and one of the big reasons I am in the public eye is that I have a reputation as a man of unfailing integrity and moral character.

A reputable source tells me that someone with whom I have a close professional and perhaps personal relationship (I don't know about the personal relationship between Paterno and Sandusky) was seen violently raping a 10 year old boy in the showers of MY football locker room (and it is Paterno's, make no mistake).

I make good and damn sure - on my own, not relying on the chain of command - that this person is in the clear, because due to my close association with him, his actions potentially reflect on me (as is seen in this case). This is Paterno's first mistake. He didn't follow up thoroughly on his own.

I keep this man as far from me personally and professionally as I possibly can if there is ANY question (not just in the legal sense where it is beyond reasonable doubt, or preponderance of evidence - Im talking if I have a 1% gut feeling) whatsoever as to his culpability. If anyone - more importantly if I - can ever come back in the future and say "I should have done more," then I want that guy as far from me and my sterling reputation as possible. This is Paterno's second and bigger mistake (given the scenario you paint where he was lied to). Even with the lies, there were enough red flags that he should have had concerns over Sandusky and he should have been using his prodigious influence to keep the perv out of the building and completely dis-associated with him.

And that's the problem, here. Lies or no, he should have done more to either look into it or to distance himself from it. Given the scope of this thing, if Paterno had used his resources of being the legend he is, he could have blown this thing up. If not, he could have used his influence to keep Sandusky so far away that he would now be able to say "I did everything I could to prevent this," instead of "had I known, I wish I could have done more."

This is the burden of being famous for being a person of character.

EDIT: Bolded to highlight key concepts in response to your response while I was typing :) Namely - I don't allow anyone with a whiff of this kind of misconduct near me or my reputation. In case this very scenario blows up in my face.

Real life example: I have an acquaintance whom I used to admire philosophically, professionally and personally (really funny guy). Some time ago, there were allegations coming from several sources that he was having inappropriate relationships with employees and supervisees. Nothing has been demonstrated as to his culpability - he still has his license and practice. I have no idea if any of it or all of it is true. However, there is enough smoke around this guy for me to not to have anything to do with him because if any of it IS true I don't want any of his shit to stick to my reputation. And it would.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 02:06 PM
He was a 75 year old figurehead by this point...

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 02:12 PM
How do you justify not firing the guy legally culpable to the point of being indicted first?

I don't. That was the point of my last post. As has already been pointed out whether Paterno should have been fired is entirely irrelevant to whether others should have been fired.

They also fired him over the phone...total classless move to a guy who has been at the university for 61 years.

I find it to be entirely ironic. He gets fired over the device he should have picked up to avoid all of this in the first place. I think he got precisely the level of respect he deserves in this instance.

Cynical and all that it is, thats how the world works. In the end, Paterno deserved to be fired. No doubt McQuary will be fired shortly as well. It just doesn't look as dramatic to start at the bottom and move up as it does to start at the top.

This.

They should have considered these victims watch TV and are aware of the students' reaction and may not want to be associated with the downfall of Mr. Paterno.

For your article Davian. Ishy's right on the money. The victims aren't sticking up for Joepa so much as worrying about becoming further victims due to reprisals.

They're all guilty. The timing of their firings means little, though I don't see why they couldn't fire them all at once.

This too.

I remember college. I don't think the students are being that logical.

Especially this. I know for a fact they aren't because I've got a friend or two from Penn State that is being the exact opposite of logical on this matter.

He's probably the most beloved figure in the history of the state and a living legend.

Thus illustrating the problem with cults of personality. The fact that Pennsylvania is having such a hard time swallowing this and doing what's right means squat about the analysis of what is right. Whenever you raise someone to the level of icon or demigod, invariably they will disappoint you.

He got a report, he gave it to the Commissioner of Police.

Who was not a certified peace officer and had absolutely no power to conduct investigations or make arrests and was purely an administrator. Nice try but that excuse is nothing more than a cop out.

Suppose Paterno heard of the suspected child molestation incident in 1998 or 2002 (can't remember off the top of my head when he is supposed to have heard about it for the first time). Now suppose that Joe Paterno called up his lawyer and asked him what his obligations were as a football coach, faculty member of Penn State, etc. Now suppose that his lawyer gives him the advice to submit a report alerting his superiors (AD, President, whoever) of the possible molestation.

If that's how it went down, would Joe Paterno be off the hook now?

Absolutely not. A lawyer can only advise a person on their LEGAL duty. As to why that is not enough to get him off the hook, see Ivhon's explanation about the difference between legality, ethics, and morals.

Ihvon, how does your opinion change if it comes out that Curley and Schultz lied to JoePa about their investigation and told him nothing came of it?

Mine doesn't at all. The bottom line for me is that it was entirely unacceptable for him to report this solely to school administrators who are not peace officers and have no power to investigate, arrest, or punish this kind of offense. They could have lied to him until they were blue in the face and it wouldn't matter. He still had an independent and separate duty to report what he knew to POLICE. Not a police administrator, actual, honest to god peace officers. I think the question people sticking up for JoePa need to asks themselves is if it were your child that he received a report about being abused, who would you want it reported to? IMHO, if you answer anyway other than either police of CPS, then you need to have any ability to procreate destroyed and any current parental rights you have terminated.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 02:16 PM
Was it still a lapse in judgement if that same Police Commissioner came back to him and said the complaint was bogus? That's the part that none of us know. We simply do not know what feedback, if any, JoePa ever received from the initial complaint to Curley and Schultz. He also probably thought it would be dumb to confront Sandusky during what was supposedly an open investigation against him.

Once JoePa is able legally to provide his side of the story I think it behooves us to hear him out and not condemn the man.

There is nothing legally preventing him from telling his side of the story right now or at any time since this broke. He could not be prosecuted for doing so. If he were all THAT, he would have spoken his truth and be damned with the consequences - its the right thing to do, right?

EDIT: Err...pretty sure about the legal thing. Not aware of a cour-mandated order of silence (which would have been violated by the statements already made, anyway) and certainly there are no national security risks here. So can't see where there is a legal bar to Paterno exercising his first amendment rights to speak. Now. There might be monetary consequences from the university (and what kind of morals does it speak to if he can be bought?) or personal consequences in the court of public opinion (see previous parenthetical).

Davian93
11-10-2011, 02:24 PM
There is nothing legally preventing him from telling his side of the story right now or at any time since this broke. He could not be prosecuted for doing so. If he were all THAT, he would have spoken his truth and be damned with the consequences - its the right thing to do, right?

Before he was fired, he was bound by the NDA in his contract with PSU and by his role as a state employee not to speak to the press without prior permission. His son Scott Paterno is an attorney and he has been railing against both for the last couple days for using these rules to muzzle JoePa.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Before he was fired, he was bound by the NDA in his contract with PSU and by his role as a state employee not to speak to the press without prior permission. His son Scott Paterno is an attorney and he has been railing against both for the last couple days for using these rules to muzzle JoePa.

Correct me if Im wrong, the NDA doesn't carry criminal penalties, does it? It just means he can be fired/lose money for breaking it (see my edit above for moral character being bought). Dunno about the state bit, but would assume that it can't contain criminal provisions.

Boils down to the burden of Paterno being a man with a reputation for being a moral character. If he is so morally impeccable, he would not care if he lost his job and some money - he would do the right thing.

It is the sad and painful consequence of his reputation that enables this conversation at all. I mean - if it were Lane Kiffen or some other dirtbag coach we would be just shrugging our shoulders and saying "just deserts."

Davian93
11-10-2011, 02:33 PM
His reputation was earned off the field, not on it.

An entire lifetime of good works should not be flushed down the toilet by a pitchfork wielding mob before any sort of investigation takes place. That's crap. He deserved to at least tell his side of the story to the Board of Trustees. He deserved a face to face meeting to defend himself. Not a BS phonecall. The BOT is worried about CYA, not about finding out what really happened.


EDIT: His NDA might not be criminal but as a state official, he could be charged with interfering with a criminal investigation if he spoke to the press. That was what was being waved at him from all accounts. I actually know quite a few people in the program there and who have gone through it and there's far, far more going on than the national media knows yet. JoePa is simply taking the fall for all the cockroaches that are fleeing as the light turns on. He's the better media story so that's what the press are going with instead of the reality of what has gone down.

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 03:12 PM
His reputation was earned off the field, not on it.

I think I have acknowledged this in my more recent arguments. Unfortunately for him, that is hurting him in this case (see my above comments about Lame Kitten)

An entire lifetime of good works should not be flushed down the toilet by a pitchfork wielding mob before any sort of investigation takes place.

And by the same token - which is my point in all this - a lifetime of good works does not negate or absolve one of the responsibilities of one's mistakes. I don't negate the good that he has done on and off the field. I also don't sweep this incident of horrible judgment (no matter what else comes of this) under the rug because he did some good things. My take on this is that he is a basically good man - maybe slightly befuddled - who made a serious mistake. It's sad, but he is simply too involved to get a pass on this.

That's crap. He deserved to at least tell his side of the story to the Board of Trustees. He deserved a face to face meeting to defend himself. Not a BS phonecall. The BOT is worried about CYA, not about finding out what really happened.


Okay. All true, I suppose. And the net result is that he should still be fired.

EDIT: His NDA might not be criminal but as a state official, he could be charged with interfering with a criminal investigation if he spoke to the press. That was what was being waved at him from all accounts. I actually know quite a few people in the program there and who have gone through it and there's far, far more going on than the national media knows yet. JoePa is simply taking the fall for all the cockroaches that are fleeing as the light turns on. He's the better media story so that's what the press are going with instead of the reality of what has gone down.


Again, Ok. Penn State is full of it and CYA, sure. I hate the school admin, too. Again, hamstrung by his own reputation for morality (Lame Kitten, I would expect to toe whatever line to protect his job, money and the courts - a moral man I expect to do the right thing whatever the personal cost). Ok on better media story. Disagree on Paterno being a patsy. He is taking the fall for his own (in)actions. The cockroaches will or will not get what is coming to them in their own right, but Paterno is falling on his own merit.

My only ONLY argument with anything you are saying, Dav, is that Paterno is himself carrying enough culpability to warrant dismissal from his figurehead diety position - to be a figurehead, you must have an image that warrants it. He no longer does and therefor needs to go. All the rest I am right with you on. Penn State University is scummily CYA itself to save money on lawsuits. Disgusting. Sandusky is the real criminal here. Totally. The McQuearys have a lot more "blood on their hands" yep. Paterno makes a bigger media story, yep. Other people should have been fired first, sure.

Ultimately, though, none of that matters in the specific case of Joe Paterno. He made mistakes that tarnish the reputation for which he maintains his figurehead position. Those mistakes - though less egregious than many around this fiasco - are still enough to warrant his dismissal.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Two quick thoughts before I head home from work:

1. I dont disagree that JoePa should have been fired...I just disagree with the way it was done and the way others havent been fired.

2. I highly, highly suspect that there is far more to the story between McQueary and Sandusky and that there is a reason that the DA, Grand Jury, Board of Trustees, etc etc have treated him with kid gloves. He's also under a gag order from the DA as the star witness in the case so he can't speak out and the guy very well could have been a victim of Sandusky himself as a kid. Something hasn't come out yet about that relationship. Otherwise, the DA would have fried him I think. There's got to be a hidden reason nobody has gone after him on the legal side of things.

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 03:56 PM
Or it could be for something as simple as use immunity. Maybe the price of mcqueary's testimony was a pass on prosecution. If so that will eventually have to be disclosed.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 05:03 PM
Or it could be for something as simple as use immunity. Maybe the price of mcqueary's testimony was a pass on prosecution. If so that will eventually have to be disclosed.

That's a possibility as well. There is also a theory out there that he has Whistleblower immunity.

The word I heard yesterday was that the BOT was gonna fire him and that he had told his players he wouldn't be coaching Sat. That has suddenly changed...though the BOT doesnt want him on the sideline but rather in the coaching booth.

Terez
11-10-2011, 08:22 PM
As a huge PSU fan....YES, YES HE SHOULD.

Sorry JoePa but you done fvcked up here.
flip-flop!

Davian93
11-10-2011, 08:52 PM
flip-flop!

Oftentimes gut reactions aren't the most accurate after hearing everything.

AbbeyRoad
11-10-2011, 09:12 PM
if you answer anyway other than either police or CPS
Accusations of any child abuse whatsoever should be reported to CPS whether you're a football coach, a parent, a neighbor, or just a passerby. That's precisely what that organization does; protect children. If he had made just one call to CPS after it was reported to him, he could right now be saying "I did what I thought right; the rest was up to the findings of the investigations of Child Protective Services."

When you are the head coach of a football team, the organization is your responsibility. Anything negative reflects on you; therefore, if you catch a hint of wrongdoing you'd better make sure it is permanently taken care of. ESPECIALLY if that wrongdoing involves children, given the nature of your job.

Terez
11-10-2011, 10:22 PM
Oftentimes gut reactions aren't the most accurate after hearing everything.
I knew I could count on you for a Romneyism. :)

Ivhon
11-10-2011, 10:31 PM
Accusations of any child abuse whatsoever should be reported to CPS whether you're a football coach, a parent, a neighbor, or just a passerby. That's precisely what that organization does; protect children. If he had made just one call to CPS after it was reported to him, he could right now be saying "I did what I thought right; the rest was up to the findings of the investigations of Child Protective Services."

When you are the head coach of a football team, the organization is your responsibility. Anything negative reflects on you; therefore, if you catch a hint of wrongdoing you'd better make sure it is permanently taken care of. ESPECIALLY if that wrongdoing involves children, given the nature of your job.

This.

Sinistrum
11-10-2011, 11:45 PM
Was listening to Doug Gotlieb on ESPN radio on the way home and he made two points I thought were very interesting in terms of timeline for this.

First off, in 1998 you have Sandusky as the heir apparent to Paterno. The first allegation comes out and Nothing comes of a report to authorities. Then strangely enough Sandusky is told the next year that he will not be Paterno's heir and steps down as defensive coordinator. Coincidence?

Secondly, 2002, Mcqueary catches Sandusky in the act, reports it to Joepa and the administration gets involved. Nothing is reported to authorities. The next year Mcqueary is promoted from graduate assistant to administrative assistant. Coincidence?

Terez
11-11-2011, 12:27 AM
Was listening to Doug Gotlieb on ESPN radio on the way home and he made two points I thought were very interesting in terms of timeline for this.

First off, in 1998 you have Sandusky as the heir apparent to Paterno. The first allegation comes out and Nothing comes of a report to authorities. Then strangely enough Sandusky is told the next year that he will not be Paterno's heir and steps down as defensive coordinator. Coincidence?

Secondly, 2002, Mcqueary catches Sandusky in the act, reports it to Joepa and the administration gets involved. Nothing is reported to authorities. The next year Mcqueary is promoted from graduate assistant to administrative assistant. Coincidence?
And in 2005, the DA who handled the 1998 case - a guy who had a reputation for not doing anyone any favors - disappears. Friends think he didn't prosecute because he didn't have enough evidence. Now, you work for a prosecutor, don't you? Let's say you were him, and you had a good feeling that the allegations were true despite the lack of solid evidence. What would you do, assuming you're a decent human being?

AbbeyRoad
11-11-2011, 12:40 AM
And in 2005, the DA who handled the 1998 case - a guy who had a reputation for not doing anyone any favors - disappears.
This is a little less suspicious in comparison with some of the rest. Disregarding the 7 year gap, DA's handle a LOT of cases, and the chances his disappearance is contingent on this particular case are relatively small. His disappearance (and wiping of his hard-drive, as well as having googled "how to dispose of hard drives" right before dying) is certainly suspicious, but I'm not sure it has to do with this case.

Sinistrum
11-11-2011, 12:44 AM
Let's say you were him, and you had a good feeling that the allegations were true despite the lack of solid evidence. What would you do, assuming you're a decent human being?

I'd try it, let the jury hear his confession to the child's parent, and let them decide if it was enough to convict.

Terez
11-11-2011, 12:44 AM
The main reason I'm suspicious is that we've clearly got a complex cover-up scheme going on here, and by the timing it fits in with the rest. Also, JoePa is an Italian from NY, so I don't trust him (not knowing anything about him). :p There was a Joseph Paterno involved with the Gambino family in the 60s...

Terez
11-11-2011, 02:37 PM
Don't tell me I killed the thread with my mafia conspiracy theories!

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2011, 01:57 PM
Did anyone watch/hear the interview. I heard snippets, admittedly, but...wow.

Sandusky admits he 'horsed around,' but insists he's innocent
(http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/15/us/pennsylvania-sandusky-case/index.html)
State College, Pennsylvania (CNN) --
Former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky insisted in an interview Monday night he is "innocent" of charges that he sexually abused young boys, denying to NBC's Bob Costas that he's a pedophile.

In a telephone interview with NBC's "Rock Center With Brian Williams," Sandusky admitted that some details in the graphic 23-page grand jury report released earlier this month are correct.

"I could say I have done some of those things," he said. "I have horsed around with kids I have showered (with) after workouts. I have hugged them, and I have touched their legs without intent of sexual contact."

Still, Sandusky claimed he has been falsely accused of crimes. When pressed, the 67-year-old Sandusky said the only thing he did wrong was having "showered with those kids."

The stunning allegations led to the firing of legendary coach Joe Paterno and the departure of other officials because they didn't promptly contact police after accusations surfaced.

The national spectacle has outraged and embarrassed Penn State students and alumni. An alumni-led effort has raised $372,000 for abuse victims in less than a week, a Twitter message said on Tuesday.

Investigations have been launched by the Pennsylvania attorney general's office, the U.S. Department of Education, Penn State, and Second Mile, the charity founded by Sandusky.

Costas asked probing questions in his interview : "Are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys?"

Sandusky repeated the question, paused briefly, repeated the question again and responded. "Am I sexually attracted to underage boys? Sexually attracted? You know, I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. Um, I, I, but no, I'm not sexually attracted to young boys."

Costas told "The Dan Patrick Show" he originally thought he was going to interview Sandusky's lawyer Joe Amendola, but the attorney offered an interview with the accused coach. Costas said there were no ground rules for the interview, taped a few hours before it was aired.

"Literally 10, 15 minutes before we were going to sit down with Amendola, he, Amendola, said to me, 'What if I can get Sandusky on the phone, how would you feel about that?' And I said, 'Let's try and do it.' And so we just pivoted and made it Sandusky," Costas said.

Costas spoke briefly with Amendola, who sat with Costas during the phone interview.

Asked if Paterno had ever spoken to him about his behavior or expressed disapproval, Sandusky said simply, "No."

And asked if he felt guilty over the spreading fallout that has affected the university and prominent university figures including the fired Paterno, Sandusky responded, "I don't think it was my fault. I obviously played a part in this. ... I shouldn't have showered with those kids. That's what hits me the most."

Amendola said Monday night that showering with children does not equate automatically to sexual assault.

"Jerry Sandusky is a big, overgrown kid. He's a jock," Amendola told CNN's Jason Carroll. "The bottom line is jocks do that -- they kid around, they horse around."

But CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin said she thinks a crime has already been committed, based on Sandusky's own admissions.

"It's such a classic fact pattern for him to admit that he showered with these children and horsed around and confessed to touching them," she said on CNN's "AC360." "In my mind, that's already misdemeanor child sex abuse. So I disagree when the attorney says nothing criminal happened here. That, in and of itself, is criminal. ... I'm flabbergasted."

CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said Amendola finds himself in a difficult position in trying to explain his client's actions.

"It is better to say they took a shower together than to say that sex took place in the shower. But when you are admitting to showering with a 10-year-old, you've got a big problem already."

Veteran defense attorney Mark Geragos, who defended Michael Jackson against child molestation charges, urged caution in the case.
Penn State scandal timeline
Where is Jerry Sandusky?
Jack McCallum: Regrets over Penn State
Chronicling the Penn State tragedy

"Is there anyone who gives a presumption of innocence at this point? No," Geragos said. "Before we go and we say this is a done deal ... and condemn them and everything else, I think maybe we step back and take a deep breath for a second."

Sandusky was arrested on November 5, after the release of the grand jury report detailing crimes that he allegedly committed between 1994 and 2009. The grand jury identified eight young men allegedly targeted by Sandusky.

After his arrest, authorities have received more than a dozen calls from alleged victims of the former coach, a source close to the investigation told CNN last week. The source said it would take time to vet the allegations.

One incident described by then-graduate assistant coach Mike McQueary in 2002 allegedly happened on Penn State's campus.

McQueary said he told Paterno what he had seen, and Paterno then alerted then-athletic director Tim Curley, but law enforcement didn't learn of the alleged incident until years later.

In the interview with NBC's Costas, Sandusky flatly denied that McQueary witnessed what has been described in some accounts as Sandusky's rape of a young boy. He said instead that he and the boy were in the shower, "snapping towels" and engaging in horseplay.

Regarding the 2002 incident, Amendola said "the kid was messing around and having a good time" in the shower with Sandusky, adding that McQueary felt "uncomfortable" upon seeing it. He denied the more graphic details offered in that and other allegations, claiming that the prosecution's case lacked sufficient evidence and witnesses.

Amendola told NBC's "Today" show the apparent person in question claims the alleged rape never happened.

"We believe we've found him. And if we have found him, he's telling a very different story than Mike McQueary, and that's big news," Amendola said.

Amendola said that Victim 4 named in the grand jury presentment was at Sandusky's house as recently as two years ago. He was there with his girlfriend and baby and said he wanted Sandusky and his wife "to be part of his family." He said two others mentioned in the presentment saw Sandusky this summer and went to dinner with him.

"They have been throwing everything they can throw up against the wall," Amendola said of prosecutors' case. " And they're saying, (out of) all these accusations, some of them have to be true. But when you take it apart, they don't even have victims in several of their cases."

After Sandusky was charged this month with 40 counts of sexually abusing children, Judge Leslie Dutchcot freed him on $100,000 bail, against the wishes of prosecutors.

A biography of Dutchcot posted on the website of the law firm Goodall & Yurchak lists her as a volunteer for Second Mile, the charity Sandusky founded. It is not clear whether Dutchcot currently has any affiliation with the organization. CNN tried to contact the judge but has not received a response.

School trustees fired university President Graham Spanier and Paterno last week on the heels of Sandusky's arrest, while McQueary was put on administrative leave.

On Monday, in an indication of the scandal's fallout spreading beyond Penn State, U.S. Navy spokeswoman Lt. Cmdr. Alana Garas said that the U.S. Navy secretary recommended that Spanier "be removed from the board of advisers to the presidents of the Naval Postgraduate School and Naval War College."

Also on Monday, the board of directors for Second Mile announced that its CEO had resigned. The CEO of 28 years, Jack Raykovitz, a licensed psychologist, "and the board believe this is in the best interests of the organization," said a statement.

Second Mile vowed to cooperate fully with the ongoing state attorney general's investigation. It will conduct an internal investigation and has retained the Archer & Greiner law firm, which includes former Philadelphia district attorney Lynne Abraham.

The grand jury report says Sandusky molested young boys after developing close relationships with them through Second Mile.

Penn State announced a probe last week and the U.S. Department of Education wants to know whether Penn State failed to comply with the Clery Act, which requires colleges and universities "to disclose the number of criminal offenses on campus that are reported each year." The Office of Federal Student Aid is conducting the probe.

"In addition, in certain cases, the institution must issue a timely warning if a reported crime represents a threat to the campus community," the department said.

Second Mile said Sandusky has not been involved with its children since he told officials in November 2008 he was being investigated over "allegations made against him by an adolescent male."

Curley and Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz have been charged with failing to report the abuse to authorities and misleading investigators. Prosecutors determined they had a legal duty to report the alleged abuse, but McQueary and Paterno did not.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-15-2011, 02:14 PM
So... this is all just a witch hunt then?

Uh... ok.

Davian93
11-15-2011, 02:18 PM
So... this is all just a witch hunt then?

Uh... ok.

I kinda feel bad at this point. I mean, if he says he didn't do it, I think we should just leave it at that and we kinda all owe this poor man an apology.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-15-2011, 02:25 PM
I kinda feel bad at this point. I mean, if he says he didn't do it, I think we should just leave it at that and we kinda all owe this poor man an apology.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3WJyatXlFjZ-Jbk0Ns2bVisTNj0ePiGhIp3TJrJrnzIJv4KSV_vhY_lGx

Davian93
11-15-2011, 02:29 PM
A man's word is his bond, Gil.

Gilshalos Sedai
11-15-2011, 02:34 PM
A man's word is his bond, Gil.

~gigglesnort~ You said that out loud.

Kimon
11-15-2011, 06:13 PM
Not sure if this is just an attempt at some revisionist history by McQueary, but if true, this would seem to add another disturbing layer to the cover-up.

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-penn-state-scandal-mcqueary-20111115,0,1687969.story

Sinistrum
11-15-2011, 06:37 PM
I kinda feel bad at this point. I mean, if he says he didn't do it, I think we should just leave it at that and we kinda all owe this poor man an apology.

Blah blah blah due process blah blah blah beyond a reasonable doubt. Look, as I've pointed out before, in the real world (yanno that place where everyday life takes place) most people (Gonzo perhaps being the exception) don't need 12 random people off the street to tell them what is and isn't true. Most of us use two things called "reason" and "common sense" to determine what's going on around us. Trials are only designed to put the super duper stamp of approval on what most people can glean through the information released about any given criminal incident. We require that super duper stamp because unlike the court of public opinion, a court of law has drastically severe direct consequences to a person's liberty. Thus we want to make extra sure something is what most people recognize it to be in order to justify those consequences. Doesn't mean it still isn't what most people recognize it to be though before that stamp has been attached.

Additionally, just because something hasn't been "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" in a court of law doesn't make it untrue *cough cough* OJ Simpson *cough cough* Casey Anthony. There is an old saying amongst my colleagues regarding that point. There's what you know and what you can prove in court. There have been plenty of cases I've had to dismiss personally that I had no doubt what so ever that the crime actually happened but that I didn't have enough proof to get that super duper stamp of approval on. Doesn't mean I don't think the defendants are guilty and won't say so publicly. It just means I didn't have enough to go the extra mile above reason and common sense.

Not sure if this is just an attempt at some revisionist history by McQueary, but if true, this would seem to add another disturbing layer to the cover-up.

Could be a little bit of both quite frankly. I've also heard that McQueary is now saying he broke up the incident he observed too. Its all a little too convenient to me. Its basically responding to and refuting both of the main criticisms of his behavior after he started getting slammed on them. That said, I know how small towns operate. Especially a small town with such a rampant Cult of Personality, such as what you have here with JoePa and Penn State. Its not entirely inconceivable for the local police to be drinking the "must protect the university's rep and football related income at the cost of our ethics, morals and souls" koolaid too. This is why I'm hoping the FBI and U.S. attorney's office gets involved on this one. At this point, I'm not even sure if I trust the State AG to handle this correctly.

Davian93
11-15-2011, 09:20 PM
That said, I know how small towns operate. Especially a small town with such a rampant Cult of Personality, such as what you have here with JoePa and Penn State. Its not entirely inconceivable for the local police to be drinking the "must protect the university's rep and football related income at the cost of our ethics, morals and souls" koolaid too. This is why I'm hoping the FBI and U.S. attorney's office gets involved on this one. At this point, I'm not even sure if I trust the State AG to handle this correctly.

State College is probably even worse than that when it comes to being a "small town".

I dont see this being handled correctly by the local authorities. Hell, the judge that set bail as $100 K unsecured (basically, he didnt pay a penny, he's just on the hook for it if he flees) is a volunteer with Sandusky's Second Mile charity. She's known him for years and worked with him on the charity. How the hell she didn't recuse herself and how the hell the prosecutor didn't request that she recuse herself is mind boggling. Its small town politics at its finest there. Major ethics issue there.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2011, 03:59 AM
Ethics?
What does all this have to do with ethics?

Could be my lack of knowledge of the American legal system, which Sinistrum keeps pointing out, of course. But I haven't really seen any sign of ethics in this whole mess at all.

Ishara
11-16-2011, 08:59 AM
Or it could be for something as simple as use immunity. Maybe the price of mcqueary's testimony was a pass on prosecution. If so that will eventually have to be disclosed.

From the article posted above: School trustees fired university President Graham Spanier and Paterno last week on the heels of Sandusky's arrest, while McQueary was put on administrative leave.

That right there tells me that it's either he was also abused by Sandusky, or that he's seeking immunity. Or both. Besides which, firing him now would be seen as reprisal for testifying for the prosecution at this point.

Davian93
11-16-2011, 11:51 AM
From the article posted above:

That right there tells me that it's either he was also abused by Sandusky, or that he's seeking immunity. Or both. Besides which, firing him now would be seen as reprisal for testifying for the prosecution at this point.

McQueary is protected under Pennsylvania's Whistleblow Protection law...he can't be fired.

Ishara
11-16-2011, 02:48 PM
That's dumb. Protecting against reprisal is all well and good, but that blanket legisltaion doesn't address where the whistleblower has also participated, endorsed or condoned bad behaviour - which he clearly has. There should be consequences.

Davian93
11-16-2011, 03:10 PM
That's dumb. Protecting against reprisal is all well and good, but that blanket legisltaion doesn't address where the whistleblower has also participated, endorsed or condoned bad behaviour - which he clearly has. There should be consequences.


I would surmise that we dont have all the facts given that he provided a TON of testimony to the Grand Jury over a 3 year period and it was very very briefly summarized in the 23 page report. Now he's saying he broke up the rape and reported it to the police so who knows...I assume that we simply don't know all or even most of the facts.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2011, 04:41 AM
That's dumb. Protecting against reprisal is all well and good, but that blanket legisltaion doesn't address where the whistleblower has also participated, endorsed or condoned bad behaviour - which he clearly has. There should be consequences.It may very well be possible to get such consequences once all the facts have come out in open court. However, it is also reasonable that the accused can't ruin him financially by sacking him until this has played out in the courts.
It sure would be nice if we had such legislation over here, in the Netherlands. Instead, scores (well, quite a lot, at least) of successive governments have been debating "doing something", which does not seem quite as good, somehow.

Sinistrum
11-21-2011, 12:01 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-federal-investigators-considering-opening-case-111811

About damn time!

GonzoTheGreat
11-21-2011, 04:45 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-federal-investigators-considering-opening-case-111811

About damn time!Shouldn't you be decrying the overbearing Feds for trampling on States rights? :confused:

Davian93
12-12-2011, 02:25 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7341076/friend-contradicted-penn-state-nittany-lions-assistant-coach-mike-mcqueary-report-says

Shockingly, McQeary (the key witness) might not have been completely honest about what he told Joe Paterno after he allegedly witnessed the shower rape. Hmmm...will PSU's Board of Trustee's apologize to the hospitalized Joe Paterno before he dies of terminal cancer?

Sinistrum
12-13-2011, 07:11 PM
That article is completely irrelevant to any evaluation of Paterno's actions. What is relevant is Paterno's own statements to the Grand Jury.

Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a
Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called
Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate superior, to his
home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry
Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.


Doesn't matter if McQueary was completely honest to JoePa. In his own testimony to the Grand Jury, Paterno admitted he knew enough to where he should have known a sex crime against a child was being committed of some kind and that any moral, sane, and rational person should call the cops. So yeah, Penn State should take any proposed apology to JoePa, shine it up real nice, turn it sideways, and stick it straight up the old creton's ass.

GonzoTheGreat
12-14-2011, 05:44 AM
Suppose that you hear from someone that that person has witnessed a crime. Are you then supposed to go and report it to the police, or is that the job of the actual witness?
How about if it isn't second hand information, as in this case, but fifteenth hand?

It is quite likely that in this case he should indeed have spoken out about it more. But I do not think that it is as simple as "you've heard from someone that someone else may have committed a crime, so you are obliged to report that". If that were the case, then millions of Americans would have to be swamping police stations in order to report potential crimes committed by GWB and his merry men. We've heard about these alleged crimes, so there is such knowledge, the police is not yet pursuing it, so they should be informed. Day after day after day after day, until what?
At what precise point does the law say that you should stop wasting police time?

If the law does not mention a very specific point, then it becomes a matter of judgment. Which, in Paterno's case, was probably not very good. But I do not think he is the main culprit here. A lot of others had more reason to act on this but didn't.

Ivhon
12-14-2011, 08:49 AM
Suppose that you hear from someone that that person has witnessed a crime. Are you then supposed to go and report it to the police, or is that the job of the actual witness?
How about if it isn't second hand information, as in this case, but fifteenth hand?

It is quite likely that in this case he should indeed have spoken out about it more. But I do not think that it is as simple as "you've heard from someone that someone else may have committed a crime, so you are obliged to report that". If that were the case, then millions of Americans would have to be swamping police stations in order to report potential crimes committed by GWB and his merry men. We've heard about these alleged crimes, so there is such knowledge, the police is not yet pursuing it, so they should be informed. Day after day after day after day, until what?
At what precise point does the law say that you should stop wasting police time?

If the law does not mention a very specific point, then it becomes a matter of judgment. Which, in Paterno's case, was probably not very good. But I do not think he is the main culprit here. A lot of others had more reason to act on this but didn't.

All very good when talking about adults.

However, when it comes to potential child abuse, those people working in the education industry (including Paterno, since he worked for a school) have an ethical obligation to inform the police (not your boss, not your priest, not the campus mall cops, actual police). Not doing so is grounds for termination if not prosecution depending on the state. I know that my license (aka job) would be yanked in a heartbeat if I were to find myself in Paterno's situation.

You are right in that this was a judgment call. However, almost all of the things we do that have consequences are judgment calls, so I find this to be a weak argument.

He made a judgment call. It was severely flawed. He is paying the consequences for the error in judgment. As are several other people in this case.

And yes, you are also right that he is not the worst bad guy. His is just the most interesting case because of the judgment call issue just discussed.

The monster in this is Sandusky. Nobody has forgotten this. Which is why Sandusky has not merely lost his job, but is facing multiple charges of child abuse/molestation/whatever else they can tag on and is likely looking at spending the rest of his life paying the consequences for his even more severely flawed judgment. Those consequences not really being the jailtime itself, but rather the treatment he will be getting from the other inmates (who are very very hard on child molesters) while the guards just happen to be looking the other way.

Kimon
12-17-2011, 10:57 PM
Bit of a non sequitur, but the bad news keeps coming for PSU...

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7363615/reports-matt-mcgloin-curtis-drake-penn-st-nittany-lions-fight-locker-room