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Tomp
11-10-2011, 03:23 AM
I haven't read through all posts so there's a possibilty that this has alrerady been adressed.

Which characters that has died since the end of TGH do you think have joined the army that's tied to the horn.

There's two that comes to mind immediately.

The first is Ingtar, but he died just before the horn was sounded so that may be wrong.
The second is more likely and that's Jain Farstrider.


Which others may have been tied to the horn of Valere do you think?

Terez
11-10-2011, 03:24 AM
This is more of a theory-type question. Do you mind if I move your post to a new thread? This thread is more for factual questions.

Tomp
11-10-2011, 03:25 AM
If it was my post you meant, sure

eht slat meit
11-10-2011, 03:35 AM
If an extreme act of redemption is an action that can bind a new Hero to the Horn, I'd put Verin Mathwin on the list, with Jain Farstrider as a lesser possibility.

The Unreasoner
11-10-2011, 04:24 AM
What makes you all so sure they aren't Heroes already?

Even Hurin might be. Hawkwing could have been observing some precepts when he spoke of the 'adding'

Tomp
11-10-2011, 04:32 AM
What makes you all so sure they aren't Heroes already?

Even Hurin might be. Hawkwing could have been observing some precepts when he spoke of the 'adding'

Maybe you're living up to your name or I'm stupid or a combination. BUT surely there are two requirements for being tied to the horn.
1. You have to be a hero.
2. You have to be dead.

Hurin only qualifies on (maybe) one of those requirements.

The Unreasoner
11-10-2011, 04:51 AM
Oh I don't think you're stupid, I'm just trying to open this discussion a bit more. Maybe I'm being Unreasonable here.

But Hurin has been dead at some point. So has Birgitte. And Gaidal, who is a Hero, and alive atm.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2011, 04:56 AM
But Hurin has been dead at some point. So has Birgitte. And Gaidal, who is a Hero, and alive atm.They were dead, but they got over it.

Which was actually the point of the Revelation on the Mount, wasn't it?

The Unreasoner
11-10-2011, 05:06 AM
They were dead, but they got over it.
Well Done! That's the point I was deliberately not making.
lol

Tomp
11-10-2011, 05:37 AM
Sorry Unreasoner, I confirmed both :)

Ishara
11-10-2011, 08:19 AM
I think we're casting our love and affection for characters onto what a true Hero of the Horn is, or should be.

Yes, Ingtar and Verin redeemed themselves at the last. But they were Darkfriends. They did terrible, EVIL things. I still love them both, but in my mind that disqualifies them from the calling.

New Heroes? Perrin and Mat. End stop.

Jokeslayer
11-10-2011, 08:38 AM
Yes, Ingtar and Verin redeemed themselves at the last. But they were Darkfriends. They did terrible, EVIL things. I still love them both, but in my mind that disqualifies them from the calling.

Unlike the saintly LTT?

Tomp
11-10-2011, 08:40 AM
What I was looking for when starting this thread (of the pattern of theoryland :)) was persons who've died during the series and who may return at the last battle when Mat blows the horn. Not people who will join it eventually, but people who we'll see again in the last battle.



BTW as a side note.
Mat - Oden similarities stretches to the horn as well. The heroes of the horn is similar to the fallen heroes in norse mythology:
Feasting in valhalla (waiting in TAR)
Who will be led into battle by Oden (Mat) during the events of Ragnarök (during the last battle).
But you probably already has considered this in other posts.

Ishara
11-10-2011, 08:57 AM
Unlike the saintly LTT?

I feel like defeating the DO, or trying to - in every.single.life he lives makes up for that, no? Plus, he committed the massacre while mad - not of sound mind, whereas Ingtar and Verin most definitely knew what they were doing, and did it for selfish reasons.

Tomp
11-10-2011, 09:04 AM
I think Ingtar redeemed himself after his talk with Rand and sacrificing himself. That was a decision reached by "the heart", not the brain.

eht slat meit
11-10-2011, 11:35 AM
Yes, Ingtar and Verin redeemed themselves at the last. But they were Darkfriends. They did terrible, EVIL things. I still love them both, but in my mind that disqualifies them from the calling.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hawkwing initiate a war against the Aes Sedai, cultivate an attitude that would lead to the enslavement of female channellers and initiate a brutal leadership over the peoples he'd united, all at the apparent prompting of a Forsaken?

I mean, the whole damane thing happened after he was bound to the Horn, but clearly he must have done something -redeeming- to make up for those other grievous failures.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2011, 11:43 AM
But those things don't matter, eht slat meit:
"Aes Sedai are different," Egwene said.

Ishara
11-10-2011, 12:29 PM
I think Ingtar redeemed himself after his talk with Rand and sacrificing himself. That was a decision reached by "the heart", not the brain.
Redeemed himself? Sure, I guess. But his sacrifice doesn't catapult him into hero status. If his sacrifice redeemed himself, it was simply putting him back into the ledger as a good guy - not enough to move him over another column.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hawkwing initiate a war against the Aes Sedai, cultivate an attitude that would lead to the enslavement of female channellers and initiate a brutal leadership over the peoples he'd united, all at the apparent prompting of a Forsaken?

I mean, the whole damane thing happened after he was bound to the Horn, but clearly he must have done something -redeeming- to make up for those other grievous failures.

Um, not the greatest things, sure. But not evil, either. I think there's a distinction.

GGK deals with this in a *really* interesting way, with Arthur continuing to return to a world(s) that needs him, but as punishment for his crime of murdering the infants to avoid prophecy. It's not a reward, and it's certainly not a priviledge. It's meant to be a punishment - to live out the same broken story of Arthur/ Guinevere/ Lancelot as part of coming back. redemption is something simply not availble to one such as he - despite all the good that came before and after the murder of the innocents.

It sort of makes you wonder about the Heroes - it's a mercy really, that their memories don't follow them into real lives. But how must those who come to fight from TAR feel, knowing that they will one day be forced to spin out and live a similar life, over and over again?

You see this with Rand too, just prior to his revelation. It's terrible and cruel that he knows what his role is in the Pattern. His destiny sucks. And it sucks forever - not just for this one life, but forever. It's fortunate that his love(s) have been happy ones, to make it worthwhile.

Davian93
11-10-2011, 01:04 PM
In Arthur's defense, they did kill his son Stevan after all.

Oh wait, wrong GGK novel.

Toss the dice
11-10-2011, 01:45 PM
I don't think any "applicable" candidates are Heroes. Or, at least, none of the ones that are already dead are even remotely close to a "distinguished" person. If Hurin was considered qualified to be a Hero, then thousands of others would be qualified as well. I know it doesn't exactly work like that, as any Hero can live boring, even mundane lives for some of them. But Hurin is far from distinguished, and since all we really have to go on is what they've actually done in this current life - well, you might as well simply start picking out people at random if you don't give what they've done great weight in regards to their worthiness.

All in all, it is far from easy to tell if anyone could be a Hero from what they've accomplished or done in their current life, but I say no to any of the current dead candidates.

The Immortal One
11-11-2011, 05:20 AM
Unlike the saintly LTT?

I agree with Ishara. Everything (that we know of) that Lews Therin Telamon did was good and heroic. The only time we know he he nasty things is when he was driven insane by the Dark One.

All in all, it is far from easy to tell if anyone could be a Hero from what they've accomplished or done in their current life, but I say no to any of the current dead candidates.

I mostly agree, though like Tomp said Jain Farstrider is one of the few who seem to meet the criteria for a Hero of the Horn. He's done enough heroic deeds for a book to be written about him, he's gained a extra name (in the Age of Legends he likely would have been called Jain Charin Farstrider - or the Old Tongue equivalent).

Besides being 'heroic' a Hero of the Horn is spun out to do the Will of the Pattern. Look at the little we know of Jain's history.

He was involved in the fall of Malkier (as a good guy)
he was peripherally involved with Isam - who himself has played a large part in the story
he was the one who told the Ogier at Stedding Shangtai that story about the Eye of the World - eventually leading Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Thom, Nynaeve, Lan, Moiraine and Loial to the Eye
he was in Ebou Dar the entire time Mat, Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Nalesean, Olver and the Redarms were there - watching Jaichim Carridin (the darkfriend), and also saving Mat's life when he faced the gholam
since then he has been in Mat's company, following the whims of a Ta'veren
and finally, he gave his own life to save Mat, Thom and Moiraine in the Tower of Ghenjei


Besides the main characters, none of which have died, he seems to have influenced the pattern a great deal more than most.

Jokeslayer
11-11-2011, 06:01 AM
I feel like defeating the DO, or trying to - in every.single.life he lives makes up for that, no? Plus, he committed the massacre while mad - not of sound mind, whereas Ingtar and Verin most definitely knew what they were doing, and did it for selfish reasons.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Verin chose the BA over death and then worked against them. I'm not saying she never did anything "bad", but I don't think it's fair to say she's evil.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2011, 06:06 AM
I agree with Ishara. Everything (that we know of) that Lews Therin Telamon did was good and heroic. The only time we know he he nasty things is when he was driven insane by the Dark One.Specifically: when he was under the influence of the DO's Compulsion.

Weird Harold
11-11-2011, 04:11 PM
...like Tomp said Jain Farstrider is one of the few who seem to meet the criteria for a Hero of the Horn. He's done enough heroic deeds for a book to be written about him, ...

I think Jain Farstrider was already a HotH, spun out to fulfill some plan of the Pattern. Whether he was already a hero or not, it is his fame that assures him of a place in Valhalla.

Any deceased character needs that place in the public conciousness to be considered as a HotH -- Hurin, Ingtar, and Verin have performed deeds worthy of inclusion in a gleeman's stories and likely enough to become popular tales, even though there were/are no tales about them during their lives.

The one thing common to all HotH is that there are stories about them so that people remember them and recognise their names/deeds

Landro
11-11-2011, 04:39 PM
Birgitte has told that some of her past lives were normal and boring. So just because a person didn't perform any heroic actions during his/her last lifetime, doesn't mean they can't still be tied to the horn.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2011, 03:47 AM
So Morgase could be a Hero anyway, even though this time she's had nothing but boredom?

The Unreasoner
11-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Well Done! That's the point I was deliberately not making.
lol
To clarify:
Idle joke, mocking myself.

Sorry Unreasoner, I confirmed both
Perhaps I'm just not following, but are you saying Hurin is dead?

I think we're casting our love and affection for characters onto what a true Hero of the Horn is, or should be.

Yes, Ingtar and Verin redeemed themselves at the last. But they were Darkfriends. They did terrible, EVIL things. I still love them both, but in my mind that disqualifies them from the calling.
It's possible we're a bit biased. But so what? Both Verin and Ingtar played a pretty critical role. Verin very probably saved the Tower. Without Ingtar, the critical moment of PL Proclamation would have been impossible. And he was mentioned in the Prophecies. I don't know that I would believe his role was a redundant one when it was foretold 3000 years earlier. I doubt it even would be possible to foretell something unimportant 3000 years prior.
New Heroes? Perrin and Mat. End stop.
Maybe we are disagreeing on what constitutes a 'new' Hero again, but I sincerely doubt they were not tied to the Horn already.

What I was looking for when starting this thread (of the pattern of theoryland ) was persons who've died during the series and who may return at the last battle when Mat blows the horn. Not people who will join it eventually, but people who we'll see again in the last battle.
Ah. Well, that's fun too. I read it as 'people who are not currently tied to the Horn, but will be added for their acions in their current life.' Which, I think could make for a great discussion. The criteria would seem to be:

1. Hero-caliber deeds (so we can debate the meaning of that)
2. The deeds must be unique, vital, and unprecedented -something new, something unexpected, or else they would already be a Hero, and their actions would be found 'necessary' before the fact (so, no Foretellings can predict 'new' Heroes)

I think this rules out Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, and Ingtar. But Hurin and Verin are still on the table.
I feel like defeating the DO, or trying to - in every.single.life he lives makes up for that, no? Plus, he committed the massacre while mad - not of sound mind, whereas Ingtar and Verin most definitely knew what they were doing, and did it for selfish reasons.
I think the Wheel may have very different notions of good and evil. Selfishness may not be that bad, really. The Forsaken are stupid in their selfishness: they will never get what they want. Self-preservation (very probably the Wheel's primary directive) seems to be 'good', the question is (one that comes up frequently in the books): is it worth the price? (and from the Epiphany, I would guess 'yes' for the Pattern and the Dragon. Still 'no' for the Forsaken).

In a way, Moridin is the least selfish of all the characters (and I think Demandred will try and fail to kill him, when he figures it out). And he is as bad as a guy can be, for the Pattern. Semmirhage may be more effed up, but it doesn't matter to the Wheel.

Redeemed himself? Sure, I guess. But his sacrifice doesn't catapult him into hero status. If his sacrifice redeemed himself, it was simply putting him back into the ledger as a good guy - not enough to move him over another column.
Well, one wonders how high the bar really is. I mean, if Birgitte and Gaidal are Heroes, I don't find it hard to believe that Ingtar could move to another column. I don't think he did, but I entertain the notion he might have already been linked. One could argue that Birgitte's current life being less than extraordinary is the result of being ripped out (normally Heroes are sent to fix a problem/satisfy a need, Birgitte's usual 'purpose' may not currently exist), but it doesn't sound like they were up to much in their other Third Age lifetimes. They fought in some revolutions, did some 'quests', got some XP. But did the Pattern need them? Did it need them? Evidently so. But I think the bar is alot lower than we are setting it (and remember, they're reborn all the time. WOT-Jesus, WOT-Mohammed, WOT-Gandhi, WOT-MLK may all be just one HotH).

It sort of makes you wonder about the Heroes - it's a mercy really, that their memories don't follow them into real lives. But how must those who come to fight from TAR feel, knowing that they will one day be forced to spin out and live a similar life, over and over again?

You see this with Rand too, just prior to his revelation. It's terrible and cruel that he knows what his role is in the Pattern. His destiny sucks. And it sucks forever - not just for this one life, but forever. It's fortunate that his love(s) have been happy ones, to make it worthwhile.

This is sort of the essence of one of my theories that I'd like to see published. But I will say that Birgitte at least seems to 'love the flamewar' (the LB) and hate/is bored on 'the ESC couch' (TAR)

The Angry Druid
11-14-2011, 10:51 PM
I think the whole "heroic = goody goody" debate is a bit off base.

Artur Hawkwing wanted to kill all the Aes Sedai around (surely an evil act, many of them, in fact), yet he is tied to the Horn.

I don't see why Verin (or Ingtar, for that matter) would be disqualified if Hawkwing wasn't. Though neither had the overall impact that Hawkwing had, so far at least. Though the purging of the Black Ajah, and the recovery of the Horn may be MORE critical in the final analysis.

My candidates would be:

1. Hopper. Training Perrin in T'A'R is going to be huge. It already has been.

2. Jain Farstrider/Noal. He too, did some evil acts, methinks. All that stuff he can't quite remember. Still, the good should outweigh it.

3. Verin (her evil acts always had a greater good purpose around them: reveal the BA before the LB).

4. Tamra Ospenya. Great Amyrlin by all accounts. None of the boys would have recognized her in tGH.

5. Gitara Moroso. Same boat as Tamra.

6. Ingtar. He said most of his crimes were small things. Recovering the Horn is a big deal.

7. Seana. Wise One dreamwalker. Bet she did a lot of good.

8. Pedron Niall. Maybe misguided, but still, he did a lot for the Light.

9. Geofram Bornhald. Same as above.

10. Pick a heroic Asha'man, or one of Cadsuane's companions who died at the cleansing.

Lastly, who was and wasn't not bound before is also another conversation. From our perspective, none of the above were bound before, so if they appear at the LB, it will be new to US.

Still, Hopper and Farstrider would be my two best best, Verin next.

The Unreasoner
11-14-2011, 11:41 PM
All wolves spend time in T'A'R between lives. But I don't think wolves can be HotH. But in a way, I think they all are.

So while Hopper would be on my new Hero short list, I don't think it will pan out.

No Cadsuane on your list? Or Lan? They might already be Heroes, of course. I'm nearly certain Moiraine is.

On Hawkwing:
There is no reason to think the only life of his we know of is the one that bound him to the Horn.

Ishara
11-16-2011, 02:54 PM
In Arthur's defense, they did kill his son Stevan after all.

Oh wait, wrong GGK novel.

:p

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Verin chose the BA over death and then worked against them. I'm not saying she never did anything "bad", but I don't think it's fair to say she's evil. We don't know what she did though. She herself thinks of the things she's done in the name of the BA, and wasn't pleased about them. That makes mes think more evil than bad.

I think Jain Farstrider was already a HotH, spun out to fulfill some plan of the Pattern. Whether he was already a hero or not, it is his fame that assures him of a place in Valhalla.

Any deceased character needs that place in the public conciousness to be considered as a HotH -- Hurin, Ingtar, and Verin have performed deeds worthy of inclusion in a gleeman's stories and likely enough to become popular tales, even though there were/are no tales about them during their lives.

The one thing common to all HotH is that there are stories about them so that people remember them and recognise their names/deeds

Okay, sure. Stories of people is part of the mythos that surrounds the HotH. But so is merit. Of those three, I'd say only Ingtar's story was worthy of a myth-story, and he's still disqualified (as far as I'm concerned) by his acts prior to his sacrifice.

I think we need to spend some time considering the difference between bad and/ or negative and/ or agressive versus evil. Hawkwing going after the Aes Sedai wasn't evil. Misguided, yes (and again, I think we have a good argument for Compulsion at the hands of Ishmael, similar to LTT), but not evil in and of itself.

Verin could have killed babies for all you know. That would be evil. Making a positive outcome out of the bad situation of becomig BA isn't selfless, it's both covering her ass and making the best of something. She didn't begin researching the BA out of a desire to eradicate it, but rather to study it. She was making the best of things by continuing to study and record them after her inclusion.

Tomp
11-16-2011, 03:55 PM
It would be interesting if Tigraine (Shaiel) was among the heroes

eht slat meit
11-16-2011, 05:11 PM
I think part of the problem here is the presumption that a Hero is determined by good or surpassingly righteous intent. That perception is a product of modern culture, and isn't necessarily reflective of the true definition of "hero".

To cite Merriam-Webster:
a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage

Not one of those includes any mention of goodness and light. Several of the candidates favored by members of this forum could qualify. That's not to say that the modern perception of what makes a hero is a bad one, but it -is- more restrictive than the original definition that more accurately represents RJ's characters.

LTT and Hawkwing are kings, and because of that stature, are must adhere to principles that include sacrifice in the name of a greater good. They can be of heroic proportion, yet still commit grievous wrongs - Rand balefiring an entire population just to take out a single Forsaken, Hawkwing invading and conquering (with all the death and misery that entails) other lands to unite the world. The truth of these men suggests that it is possible to commit acts others would commit atrocities, and still be bound or remain bound to the wheel as a Hero.

It's probably that original 'heroic' mien that binds them to the Horn... not a rigorous set of goodly and righteous standards that only a storybook hero can pass. The act of showing great strength, courage, or nobility in a single deed that is representative of one's true character.

A character that will serve the wheel every time it is spun out into the world again.

Weird Harold
11-16-2011, 11:43 PM
Okay, sure. Stories of people is part of the mythos that surrounds the HotH. But so is merit. Of those three, I'd say only Ingtar's story was worthy of a myth-story, and he's still disqualified (as far as I'm concerned)by his acts prior to his sacrifice.

I think that the "story" -- or more precisely, the dreams the story inspires -- are THE determining factor; without the story and the dreams there is no recognitition and without recognition, the HOTH become faded and faceless. A Hero whose Myth has faded is like Rand"s perception of 'Oscar,' known also as 'Otar' and a couple of other names.) He isn't recogniseable under a single myth because he isn't a currently well-known figure.

As for Merit, merit is another word for the spin Gleemen put on the tales they tell. If they emphasize the final sacrifice over the misdeeds leading up to the sacrifice, the the public perception is of a heroic life worthy of a seat in Valhalla.

Ishara
11-17-2011, 06:38 AM
I think that the "story" -- or more precisely, the dreams the story inspires -- are THE determining factor; without the story and the dreams there is no recognitition and without recognition, the HOTH become faded and faceless. A Hero whose Myth has faded is like Rand"s perception of 'Oscar,' known also as 'Otar' and a couple of other names.) He isn't recogniseable under a single myth because he isn't a currently well-known figure.

As for Merit, merit is another word for the spin Gleemen put on the tales they tell. If they emphasize the final sacrifice over the misdeeds leading up to the sacrifice, the the public perception is of a heroic life worthy of a seat in Valhalla.

Olver. That's my vote. Just based on that.

But in a more serious vein, Thom makes the point that myths develop and change over time - that one day HE might be the Hero in a story. The actions of our characters in these moments cannot be guaranteed to get them anywhere in terms of myth and story.

Weird Harold
11-17-2011, 04:43 PM
Olver. That's my vote. Just based on that.

But in a more serious vein, Thom makes the point that myths develop and change over time - that one day HE might be the Hero in a story. The actions of our characters in these moments cannot be guaranteed to get them anywhere in terms of myth and story.
The Wheel probably provides appropriate inspiration to Gleemen so that those who are Heroic by the Wheel's standards get the publicity required to maintain their existance in T'A'R.

Ishara
11-18-2011, 06:06 AM
That's too Deus Ex Machina for my liking, especially when you consider the stories we've heard based on events in our Age. Those are not based on some gleeman's imagination laced with inspriration from the Pattern.

Those are true events that have been changed over the Ages - but still based in fact. The moon landing is an epic event, sure, but to turn it into the stuff of legends took a LONG time, enough time that people forgot what the moon even was, and forgot that it was even an option to dream of going there.

Maybe Verin's tale will morph into a young girl taking on a fortress of evil withces - or just one witch - but my point is that for it to turn into a story at all, it has to get out. Egwene has to release the knowledge that the Blacks had infested the Halls of the Tower and that one person's sacrifice made their discovery possible. I don't know that she'll do that.

Same as with Ingtar: who's around to tell his story? Rand. Who has significantly more imporatnt things to do and think about and recount now. If he was going to tell all the sordid details of Ingtar's sacrifice, he would have done in the Great Hunt to the other Saldaens. He didn't, so as not to shame him. No one else knows. The likelihood of that truning into a story of heroics is therefore unlikely.

JOS
11-18-2011, 11:31 AM
who's around to tell his story?

Loial is writing it, of course.

Ishara
11-18-2011, 02:06 PM
Loial is writing it, of course.

Loial was not there for the actual event. And Rand din't tell Loial what really went down though.

Weird Harold
11-18-2011, 04:16 PM
Loial was not there for the actual event. And Rand din't tell Loial what really went down though.

Rand told no one about Ingtar being a DF, so whatever details Loial gets are going to paint him as a "Hero Without Question" since only Rand knew of his evil past.

That's too Deus Ex Machina for my liking, especially when you consider the stories we've heard based on events in our Age. Those are not based on some gleeman's imagination laced with inspriration from the Pattern.

The Wheel Of Time is a complte Deus Ex Machina universe. Why should it surprise you that the Wheel manipulates Gleemen to control information and public opinion?

Tomp
11-18-2011, 04:45 PM
Hurin probably tells a lot of people of the events leading up to Rand proclaiming himself. Where they make a dramatic exit from Falme witnessing Ingtar staying behind, hearing his shout of defiance as he sacrifice himself, making their escape possible.

The Angry Druid
11-18-2011, 10:11 PM
All wolves spend time in T'A'R between lives. But I don't think wolves can be HotH. But in a way, I think they all are.

So while Hopper would be on my new Hero short list, I don't think it will pan out.

No Cadsuane on your list? Or Lan? They might already be Heroes, of course. I'm nearly certain Moiraine is.

On Hawkwing:
There is no reason to think the only life of his we know of is the one that bound him to the Horn.

Good point on Hawkwing.

As for the list, I think the OP phrased the initial question in terms of Heroes we could see when the Horn is sounded at the Last Battle. Therefore, I really didn't consider any characters who are still alive.

If we are going to open THAT up, then Rand/LTT (whom is already bound), Moiraine, Lan, Siuan, Perrin, and Mat will all be there.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2011, 03:47 AM
Rand told no one about Ingtar being a DF, so whatever details Loial gets are going to paint him as a "Hero Without Question" since only Rand knew of his evil past.And Ingtar's colleagues and superiors in the DF. That could turn out to be somewhat embarrassing, if they start flapping their mouths. Which they might, once the DO is gone away, leaving them to do the explaining.

Tree Brother
11-21-2011, 10:19 AM
Heroes of the Horn are "Corrective Mechanisms" thrown out by the pattern when needed. And the pattern is not exactly good or evil. I would think that to be added to the list of Heroes, you would need to be receptive to use by the pattern, rather than be "Heroic" (if that makes sense).

http://www.wotdb.com/interviews/question/746