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Hugoye
11-14-2011, 09:15 PM
I've asked a variation of this question before but did not receive an answer that seemed to hold consistently, so I'll try to rephrase:

What criteria are used to determine the name by which a Hero bound to the Horn is known? Rand seems to be known as "Lews Therin" by the other heroes, including those, like Hawkwing, who were not alive to know him as Lews Therin. We also know that Hawkwing himself is apparently known as Artur Hawkwing. This led me to believe that the criterion is last held name.

But I don't think (and I may be wrong so please correct me if need be) that this would explain Birgitte and Gaidal Cain. Hawkwing doesn't explicitly name them, but they are described as Birgitte and GC, so I think it's fair to assume that this is how they were known. Moreover, Birgitte clearly self-identifies as Birgitte, rather than as Teadra, Jethari Moondancer, etc. And she refers to GC as "Gaidal."

I'm unsure at which point they held these specific names, so I suppose it's possible that these were their most recent names, but I don't get this impression from the books.

Might the criterion perhaps be that a Hero is known by his/her most famous name? How would this be determined?

eht slat meit
11-14-2011, 09:39 PM
My guess is that the events that bound them to the Wheel in the first place are what determines the name by which a Hero(ine) is known. Not necessarily an effect of the binding, but a social side-effect of the fame they acquired in doing so.

Weird Harold
11-15-2011, 01:44 AM
What criteria are used to determine the name by which a Hero bound to the Horn is known? Rand seems to be known as "Lews Therin" by the other heroes, including those, like Hawkwing, who were not alive to know him as Lews Therin. We also know that Hawkwing himself is apparently known as Artur Hawkwing. This led me to believe that the criterion is last held name.
This is the common.y accepted rule, but thre may be ecxeptions.

Might the criterion perhaps be that a Hero is known by his/her most famous name? How would this be determined?

this is probably the second most popular explanation.

I don'think it is the names they were tied to the Wheel originally, because those names would be as lost to Time over the infinite Turns since the Heros were first bound.

Ishara
11-16-2011, 03:01 PM
And in the case of Birgitte, is it the name of her avatar - the archetype - that is the one used, where in "real" life that wasn't her name at all?

Terez
11-16-2011, 04:33 PM
No, it was her name - presumably the name of her most recent incarnation. That's why she told the girls that's the name they would know.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2011, 04:14 AM
No, it was her name - presumably the name of her most recent incarnation. That's why she told the girls that's the name they would know.I am not at all convinced that it was indeed her most recent incarnation. The "Jethari Moondancer" one, that ended in the Tower of Ghenjei, was very recent too. And yet Mat hadn't even heard about it.
I think that it is more likely that the Birgitte incarnation was during the War of Power, when she foiled Moghedien's scheme.

Ishara
11-17-2011, 06:41 AM
Um, I'm certain (and with no time to check, crap!) that there was actually a different name there - she maybe told Nynaeve in their time with a certain caped crusader?

Also, coming from TAR, Birgitte was clearly aware of her legendary status and the myths around her. I'd say that was the driving factor behind her giving the girls that name to use - not mention the fact that they had already given her that name when thinking of her.

eht slat meit
11-17-2011, 11:09 PM
I am not at all convinced that it was indeed her most recent incarnation. The "Jethari Moondancer" one, that ended in the Tower of Ghenjei, was very recent too. And yet Mat hadn't even heard about it.
I think that it is more likely that the Birgitte incarnation was during the War of Power, when she foiled Moghedien's scheme.

That would be "Teadra".

Hugoye
11-17-2011, 11:11 PM
No, it was her name - presumably the name of her most recent incarnation. That's why she told the girls that's the name they would know.

If the story of Jethari Moondancer was popular about a hundred years prior to ToM, it may be reasonable to assume Jethari actually lived not long before that. This is especially so since Birgitte assumes, I think reasonably, that the story got out at all because someone - she guesses an Aes Sedai - thought to ask the Finns about it; such a person would had to have been concerned with Jethari's fate, and so probably knew Jethari. It therefore seems reasonable that whoever put the story out around a hundred years prior to the events in ToM also lived within a generation of Jethari. So let's say Jethari lived at most 200 years before ToM (which is also long enough for the tale of Elmiara to generate from her legend).

In order for "Birgitte" (rather than Jethari) to have been her most recent incarnation, then, she would have had to have lived, at most, somewhere between 100 and 150 (or so) years before ToM. And presumably she would have been famous (and named Birgitte!!!) during this incarnation. This being the case, wouldn't a whole host of Aes Sedai (not to mention Ogier) have been able to recognize her, once ripped from TAR?

The fact that no one seems to recognize her might indicate that "Birgitte" was probably a much earlier incarnation (old enough that some of the oldest Aes Sedai then alive - Vandene and Adeleas - wouldn't have recongized her from her latest incarnation).

...Which brings me to another question, I suppose. What determines how a Hero looks in TAR? Does the Hero look like his/her most recent incarnation?

eht slat meit
11-18-2011, 01:35 AM
I imagine that if it were that easy to grab up Heroes, the world would be a very different place. There's the assumption that they are ever the same, which doesn't fit the "lesser hero" role they often take on, and more importantly the fact that in-world people (as opposed to the Reader Almighty) don't have that level of insight into the weavings of the Wheel.

Terez
11-18-2011, 06:18 AM
If the story of Jethari Moondancer was popular about a hundred years prior to ToM, it may be reasonable to assume Jethari actually lived not long before that.She said it was still being told, not that it happened at that time. She was surprised the story wasn't familiar to Mat. Most likely, during her life as Birgitte, she had heard the tales of Jethari Moondancer, and of course didn't know they were about her until after she died.

Hugoye
11-18-2011, 07:54 AM
She said it was still being told, not that it happened at that time. She was surprised the story wasn't familiar to Mat. Most likely, during her life as Birgitte, she had heard the tales of Jethari Moondancer, and of course didn't know they were about her until after she died.

This might be true, but the question would still apply. If she knew about the story being popular about 100 years prior to ToM because that is when she was incarnated as Birgitte - presumably her best known incarnation from the perspective of the Randlanders (as you pointed out earlier in the thread) - then how would none of the Aes Sedai recognize her? Any number of the ones in the Tarasin Palace with Elayne and Birgitte would have been old enough, especially Vandene and Adeleas.

Terez
11-18-2011, 08:08 AM
This might be true, but the question would still apply. If she knew about the story being popular about 100 years prior to ToM because that is when she was incarnated as Birgitte - presumably her best known incarnation from the perspective of the Randlanders (as you pointed out earlier in the thread) - then how would none of the Aes Sedai recognize her? Any number of the ones in the Tarasin Palace with Elayne and Birgitte would have been old enough, especially Vandene and Adeleas.She was recognized in Falme by people who weren't alive then. As far as they know, Birgitte is long-dead. So why would they think it was Birgitte by god Silverbow? (Despite the name.) Only a few people know that is even possible. Also, Birgitte might not have been particularly acquainted with Aes Sedai in that life.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2011, 08:16 AM
She was recognized in Falme by people who weren't alive then. As far as they know, Birgitte is long-dead. So why would they think it was Birgitte by god Silverbow? (Despite the name.)The name, the face, the bow, the shooting ability and such are indeed quite inconclusive clues, each on their own. Not even Valan Luca saw through that disguise.

Only a few people know that is even possible. Also, Birgitte might not have been particularly acquainted with Aes Sedai in that life.Just as Mat, Perrin and Rand have met hardly any AS in this life as Heroes. Just as almost no AS would recognise Lan.

You make a case, I have to say. I'm not entirely sure it is a convincing case, but it is a case nonetheless. :p

Terez
11-18-2011, 08:25 AM
The name, the face, the bow, the shooting ability and such are indeed quite inconclusive clues, each on their own. Not even Valan Luca saw through that disguise.Min had recognized her in Falme, but didn't realize who she was in Salidar. She didn't realize that until Winter's Heart.

Just as Mat, Perrin and Rand have met hardly any AS in this life as Heroes. Just as almost no AS would recognise Lan.1. I said 'might not have been'.
2. Even if she was acquainted with some Aes Sedai, there's no reason to think Vandene and Adeleas would have been among them. Mat happens to have been to the Tower and to the Salidar camp, so he's hardly a good random example. Lan is a Warder, and is therefore a downright ridiculous comparison. Perrin would be better - relatively few Aes Sedai would recognize him.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2011, 09:13 AM
Perrin would be better - relatively few Aes Sedai would recognize him.Just the ones that were in Fal Dara, when Moiraine had brought the Horn there, and Siuan took a delegation to have a look at the Dragon Company. And the ones that met him on the way to Dumai's Wells. As well as those who were captured there. And Annoura. Oh, and any AS who got a look at one of the "wanted, dead" notices that are apparently dumped in humongous quantities all over Randland.

I'm not entirely sure that Perrin is as unrecognisable as you seem to think.

Terez
11-18-2011, 09:24 AM
Just the ones that were in Fal Dara, when Moiraine had brought the Horn there, and Siuan took a delegation to have a look at the Dragon Company. And the ones that met him on the way to Dumai's Wells. As well as those who were captured there. And Annoura. Oh, and any AS who got a look at one of the "wanted, dead" notices that are apparently dumped in humongous quantities all over Randland.

I'm not entirely sure that Perrin is as unrecognisable as you seem to think.That's because you're a troll. I said 'relatively'. There are 1000 Aes Sedai. Probably fewer than 100 would recognize him. Even fewer would still be alive 100 years later.

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2011, 11:41 AM
That's because you're a troll. I said 'relatively'. There are 1000 Aes Sedai. Probably fewer than 100 would recognize him. Even fewer would still be alive 100 years later.

Well, how many AS today would recognize Jain Farstrider if they met him? Probably some from the Borderlands, but he was fairly easily able to disguise himself as Noal...um...Farstrider. Before Rand & Co., no one was anywhere near as big a celebrity as Jain.

Now sure, Jain might not be a Hero, but everybody knows his name (heh...damn, RJ should have named him Norm instead of Noal).

In 100 more years, how many AS would recognize him? Not many, I'd bet.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2011, 12:06 PM
Difference is that Birgitte looks like she did when she was at the height of her fame in her previous life. Assuming that that's what she looks like now, of course, which is actually the point under discussion.

Suppose that 100 AS could indeed recognise someone like that. There's about 1,000 AS. So with every AS, there is 10% chance of recognition. A bit less, because of attrition, but considering the longevity of AS and the decrease in their numbers, it wouldn't be all that many less than 10% after such a time.
Even if only one in 15 AS could recognise Birgitte right now, that is still a significant proportion. She has met dozens of them, already, after all, and does not seem particularly worried over being recognised when she goes to the Field of Merrilor. So, it seems logical to assume that she does not look like she did during the lifetime of any currently living AS.

Since her looks are tied to her name, at least to some extend, I would say that the name "Birgitte" is older than just a few centuries. How much older, I do not know, though. As Terez pointed out, my simple "it was during the AOL" approach somewhat fell apart when faced with facts.

The difference with Jain/Noal is that the latter had changed quite a bit as a result of aging (and being Ishamael's captive for a while, too).

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Difference is that Birgitte looks like she did when she was at the height of her fame in her previous life. Assuming that that's what she looks like now, of course, which is actually the point under discussion.

Suppose that 100 AS could indeed recognise someone like that. There's about 1,000 AS. So with every AS, there is 10% chance of recognition. A bit less, because of attrition, but considering the longevity of AS and the decrease in their numbers, it wouldn't be all that many less than 10% after such a time.
Even if only one in 15 AS could recognise Birgitte right now, that is still a significant proportion. She has met dozens of them, already, after all, and does not seem particularly worried over being recognised when she goes to the Field of Merrilor. So, it seems logical to assume that she does not look like she did during the lifetime of any currently living AS.

Since her looks are tied to her name, at least to some extend, I would say that the name "Birgitte" is older than just a few centuries. How much older, I do not know, though. As Terez pointed out, my simple "it was during the AOL" approach somewhat fell apart when faced with facts.

The difference with Jain/Noal is that the latter had changed quite a bit as a result of aging (and being Ishamael's captive for a while, too).See the "New Heroes" thread. If indeed Birgitte's appearance is tied to her mythological archetype, then she will probably always appear that way when she is spun out.

Clearly not all Heroes always look the same, though, since Rand and Lews Therin were pretty different.

Terez
11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I think some physical characteristics might always be the same. Lews Therin was, for example, as tall as Rand, and Gaidal Cain is always ugly.

Weird Harold
11-18-2011, 04:03 PM
Difference is that Birgitte looks like she did when she was at the height of her fame in her previous life. Assuming that that's what she looks like now, of course, which is actually the point under discussion.

Actually, we don't know that Birgitte actually resembles what she looked like in any incarnation. Birgitte Silverbow in T'A'R looks like her Legend, which may or may not havee any relationship to her living appaearance.

Even if that weren't true, any AS who knew Birgitte -- in any incarnation -- knows that Birgitte Silverbow is dead, and has been dead fo a long time. Anyone seeing Birgitte Trehalion might remark on the similarity of appearance but would have no reason to guess that the similarity was more than a coincidental resemblance to a dead person.

eht slat meit
11-18-2011, 08:33 PM
There was a reason this was sticking in my head, and that I've been qualifying my surety. I couldn't remember exactly why I was sure her appearance changes from one incarnation to the next, but now I remember - it's because of Min's viewing. It's not solid proof of course, but the implications of Gaidal Cain are enough evidence to make me sure I'm not coming out of left field with it.

Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man. ~ WH, ch12

That's also part of why I'm almost certain that Olver is Gaidal Cain.

Weird Harold
11-18-2011, 11:27 PM
There was a reason this was sticking in my head, and that I've been qualifying my surety. I couldn't remember exactly why I was sure her appearance changes from one incarnation to the next, but now I remember - it's because of Min's viewing. It's not solid proof of course, but the implications of Gaidal Cain are enough evidence to make me sure I'm not coming out of left field with it.

~ WH, ch12


IIRC, there is a description of Teadra as having short brown hair that is a better indication of Birgitte's appearnce changing with each incarnation. I don't think anyone disputes that her appearance does change. The question is whether her blonde braid and impressive bosom represent tbe actual characteristics of her (last) incarnation as "Birgitte Silverbow."

That's also part of why I'm almost certain that Olver is Gaidal Cain.

You're absolutely wrong -- per RJ, "Olver is too old to be Gaidal Cain"

eht slat meit
11-18-2011, 11:57 PM
You're absolutely wrong -- per RJ, "Olver is too old to be Gaidal Cain"

Wasn't aware of that, guess I missed it when reading through the interview stuff.

I will say that doesn't seem to be absolutely true by the rules of Randland, however, and had that been the extent of the answer, I would have said he was playing it tricky with a badly phrased question.

However, after some looking, it seems that he did give a straight "No" answer to Gaidal Cain as Olver question. Too bad, though it does still leave open the option for Birgitte to be rebound to the Horn, if Moghedien actually severed her. Something -has- to happen for that to Viewing to come true, obv.

Oh, right, as I was saying... barring some hidden trick, it would be a simple matter for Moghedien to force Gaidal into a child's form (as she did to Birgitte) and then rip him out of TAR (as she did to Birgitte). No memory of who he is, and an untold story of how he was saved from death. She had the means and the motive. Obviously didn't happen that way with a "No" answer from RJ to say as much, but entirely plausible under the rules of Randland. No messy time theories, no horribly convoluted logic.

And on that note, all of the previous writing in this post is a product of having way too much time on my hands to rationalize an already rejected theory.

Yay!

Terez
11-19-2011, 02:58 AM
Birgitte wasn't severed from the Horn; Min saw that she is still tied to Gaidal. Her normal birth-cycle was short-circuited, but that seems to be the only major consequence aside from her near-death which was prevented by Elayne.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2011, 03:55 AM
Birgitte wasn't severed from the Horn; Min saw that she is still tied to Gaidal. Her normal birth-cycle was short-circuited, but that seems to be the only major consequence aside from her near-death which was prevented by Elayne.Maybe, maybe not.

There's pretty strong evidence suggesting that if wolves die in the Wolf Dream (TAR) then they're finished forever. The same might be true for the Heroes in TAR too.
And that raises the question of whether or not Birgitte counts as "being in TAR" for this specific purpose. It may be that this is her very last life, no matter how long it lasts.

Oh, and Gaidal Cain is Gadren Grady's son, mentioned in ToM, chapter 10, After the Taint.

Terez
11-19-2011, 04:32 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

There's pretty strong evidence suggesting that if wolves die in the Wolf Dream (TAR) then they're finished forever. The same might be true for the Heroes in TAR too.
And that raises the question of whether or not Birgitte counts as "being in TAR" for this specific purpose. It may be that this is her very last life, no matter how long it lasts.I doubt she counts as being 'in Tel'aran'rhiod' seeing as how she's not there any more. RJ said Min's viewings are always about the future, and Min saw many, many more lives for Birgitte, so we know she won't die permanently. One might argue that she will somehow be returned to Tel'aran'rhiod, but that doesn't explain why she would be tied to Gaidal in a life where he is much younger than her. If she's returned, theoretically she would be spun out like normal and be younger than him as usual. She's got all this heartbreak about not being able to find Gaidal, but we know that Min will clear that up for her by the end of the book.


Oh, and Gaidal Cain is Gadren Grady's son, mentioned in ToM, chapter 10, After the Taint.Still a troll. He's too old, having been about four years old by Rand's estimation in LOC. But you knew that, didn't you? And since you're a troll, I'll pre-empt your argument that Rand's estimation was off by noting beforehand that it's ridiculous to think that he would have mistaken a newborn - which he must have been, to be eligible - for a four-year-old. I'll also pre-empt your argument that Grady might have another son by pointing out that it would be odd if he was only interested in seeing the one. Brandon even attempted to preempt it by saying he was big for his age, but I don't buy it. Even if RJ said in the notes that it was Gadren, I don't buy it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2011, 06:27 AM
He's too old, having been about four years old by Rand's estimation in LOC. But you knew that, didn't you?No, I didn't. Well, technically, having read that book, I suppose that I did, but I'd forgotten the specifics of this child, and I had not (yet) bothered to properly compile all data on Grady's family into one big (all right, small, as there's not all that much) heap.
I'll admit that this rather shoots that idea out of the water.

Seeing how all boys and most men are remarkably ugly, I don't think that Birgitte has any reason for complaint. It does explain why all those women react as they do to the one single exception (Galad).

padfoot89
11-19-2011, 06:34 AM
Perhaps Heroes have the appearance and name of their most famous incarnation as opposed to most recent ?

confused at birth
11-19-2011, 02:07 PM
Min saw many, many more lives for Birgitte, so we know she won't die permanently

that doesnt mean that she is still bound just that she will be in the future.

its Birgitte if anyone could get to be a hero again its her.

maybe she will kill Elayne and be welcomed back and made the leader of the heroes:D

Terez
11-19-2011, 02:13 PM
that doesnt mean that she is still bound just that she will be in the future.If you read the rest of my post, it should be clear to you that it means she still is bound. If not, then I can't help you...

confused at birth
11-19-2011, 02:20 PM
read it just didnt totally agree

she knows who she is this time so she would look for any sign that he is around.

She said that they always seek each other when they are alive and and he is still bound and was born before she got kicked out so she would still be part of his destiny.

Terez
11-19-2011, 02:27 PM
read it just didnt totally agreeIt seems more likely you didn't understand.

confused at birth
11-19-2011, 02:31 PM
It seems more likely you didn't understand.

Could be I have tried to not pay attention since obama got in because they might figure out a way to tax me.

I will say that I dont agree but go with your theory if it makes you feel better:D

Terez
11-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Thanks for confirming that you are an idiot.

Hugoye
11-19-2011, 05:24 PM
Even if RJ said in the notes that it was Gadren, I don't buy it.

Well listen, if it's in the notes then it's in the notes. RJ clearly was aware as early as LOC of the time factor in determining how old GC would be at any point during the rest of the series, since Olver is introduced (please correct me if I'm wrong) in LOC. Since Olver's sole purpose (until AMOL at least) seems to be serving as a red herring for GC, RJ would hardly have made Olver too old, while making the real GC too old as well...in the very same book.

...That said, Gadren Grady may just be another red herring for GC, since Terez makes a pretty good point about the four year old in LOC. If, however, Gadren Grady does indeed turn out to be GC, we would probably have to explain the reference in LOC as not actually referring to Sora and Jur Grady's child:

The women were not gathering around Taim. In a silent line of worried eyes, they held hard to the children and watched. The youngest, a plump pale-haired woman, a boy of four playing with her fingers, was Sora Grady.

It's possible (although it wouldn't be - and wasn't - my first reading instinct) to understand this passage to mean that the women [in general] were watching over the children [in general]. Sora may have been watching someone else's child. In fact, the passage nowhere identifies the four year old EXPLICITLY as Sora's son.

As noted, this isn't the simplest reading of the passage. If Gadren Grady does turn out to be GC, then I suppose we'd have to posit that this passage was another red herring designed to put clever readers off the scent. :p

Terez
11-19-2011, 05:31 PM
Well listen, if it's in the notes then it's in the notes.Well yes, but that doesn't make it consistent with the rules that he's laid out. You can only stretch suspension of disbelief so far.


Olver's sole purpose (until AMOL at least) seems to be serving as a red herring for GC
RJ specifically said that wasn't his sole purpose.

Hugoye
11-19-2011, 05:38 PM
Well yes, but that doesn't make it consistent with the rules that he's laid out. You can only stretch suspension of disbelief so far.

It's consistent if you go with my suggested reading. Not great, though, I grant.

RJ specifically said that wasn't his sole purpose.

I know that - that's what I was referring to when I said "until AMOL at least." But as of now, that seems to be the only role he has played from the reader's standpoint (even if, as is very possible, AMOL ends up conferring retroactive importance upon something he has done in the earlier books).

Hugoye
11-19-2011, 05:45 PM
Well yes, but that doesn't make it consistent with the rules that he's laid out. You can only stretch suspension of disbelief so far.

Also, as I said, if your concern is a valid one then I'm sure RJ was aware of it because Olver is introduced in the very same book as the four year old with Sora Grady. RJ must have known that people would think Olver was GC (I mean gosh, even readers who figured out right away that the timeline wasn't right would have immediately thought "GC red herring"!), and he would hardly have offered the "too old" answer if the real GC - introduced just a few chapters apart - had the same problem.

Lupusdeusest
11-19-2011, 06:51 PM
Is the looking at summoned Heroes and knowing all their names simply a gift for those bound to the Horn? Re: Rand's knowledge of Padraig/Patrick etc.

Rand al'Fain
11-19-2011, 06:55 PM
Is the looking at summoned Heroes and knowing all their names simply a gift for those bound to the Horn? Re: Rand's knowledge of Padraig/Patrick etc.

Probably. Also, another factor would be knowing them in previous lives, as Rand, unlike most people, actually ragains all of his memories from past lives during his epiphany, and certain things would spontaneuosly come to him prior to that.

Weird Harold
11-19-2011, 08:15 PM
Perhaps Heroes have the appearance and name of their most famous incarnation as opposed to most recent ?
A definite possibility. In most cases, it would be just a semantic difference since the same incarnation would be selected.