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View Full Version : WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?


Great Lord of the Dark
11-20-2011, 09:26 PM
You are Demandred. You will be Nae'blis, it has been promised by the Great Lord Himself. Moridin is just keeping your chair warm.

All you have to do is obey. You have been told who will live, and who will die. For now you wait. You have gathered for war, and you are ready.

The Dragon's forces are striking victory after victory. So many of the Chosen have been Balefired. But your moment will come. Soon. You are a serpent at the breast. When you strike, it will be sudden, unanticipated, unstoppable.

And it will be Balefire.

Who have you been told will die?
Who will you balefire at the Great Lord's command?
Will you undo them an hour? A day? A month?
What will the outcome of their death by balefire be?

There is no point in balefiring Lan. None of his actions being undone would impede the forces of the Dragon since the Borderlanders would still have massed following the Golden Crane, and the Malkieri Lord they all swear rode west at their head. No, Balefire on Lan is pointless.

Nynaeve, now there's a worthy target. Undo any recent healing of Rand or his allies. Undo any Gateways she wove and unmobilize any armies or allies she moved. Could you unleash such a torrent to undo the Cleansing of Saidin and leave Rand and his Asha'man crippled with sudden madness and wasting sickness? You do have an angreal, don't you?

Aviendha?
Min?
Birgitte?
Tuon?
Tylee?
Bashere?
Rhuarc?
Loial?

Who is your target, and why?

eht slat meit
11-20-2011, 10:08 PM
Finish the job Semirhage started. Clearly didn't take the first time if LTT-Rand is still trying to negotiate with them in fulfillment of the Cycle prophecies.

thefistsofheaven
11-20-2011, 10:39 PM
honestly, they should have just balefire Lanfear in the AoL. she is the one who drilled into the bore. problem solved.

in answer to ur question oh great lord, instead of trying to find those ppl u just told me about, trying to find them in a sea of ppl will put myself in too much danger. i would still balefire Lanfear cause i can find her very easily. but only to the time when she went into the Portal Stone and brought Rand out. even though everyone will have the memory of everything that has happened. balefire does not turn back time itself, so rand would have spent all those time in another world unable to effect it one bit. and so Mat would have been dead, seanchen has taken over the world, callandor never drawned, black tower never founded, etc..etc.

Isabel
11-20-2011, 10:52 PM
Welcome back, GLOTD :) :)))

About Nynaeve being a target. It depends if Demandred has an angreal and how strong.
The cleansing is a while ago, so the balefire has to be quite strong for it to undo the cleansing.

WinespringBrother
11-20-2011, 11:31 PM
Can I get back to you on that? *sweats* Seems to me that may overstress the Pattern just a little too much to my liking kthxbai

GonzoTheGreat
11-21-2011, 04:14 AM
When Rand is all happy about seeing Moiraine on the Field of Merrilor, balefire Mat with sufficient strength to keep Moiraine and Thom stranded in the ToG. As that also gets rid of one of the three ta'veren, that is at least a strong double blast for the Shadow (counting Thom as not really important).

Just after Taim has been killed, balefire Logain, thus brining Taim back to life and wrecking the whole victory of the Light serving Asha'man.

Oh, and balefire Egwene, just on general principles.

Jonai
11-21-2011, 04:55 AM
Demmykins isn't going to be able to balefire back far enough to undo the cleansing. Rand with the fat man only blew Rahvin back far enough to get a free pizza from Dominos in the old days. The whole Lanfear thing would have destroyed the world. I do like the Logain and Mat ideas though.

But really, Demmykins needs to steal Callandor and balefire Graendal to bring back...well you know who. Cuz every Nae'blis needs a theme song.

confused at birth
11-21-2011, 01:32 PM
Demmykins needs to steal Callandor

if he did that he could balefire Gawyn and let Egwene be murdered yay.

she dead tower falls apart and the bondage freak is back

bonus points since he would have killed bad people and still helped the shadow:D

Ishara
11-21-2011, 02:51 PM
Okay people, consider this your friendly reminder to post on-topic and in full sentences using words that resemble those in the English language.

And if we could nip that whole "Demmykins" thing in the bud, that would be great.:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
11-21-2011, 03:01 PM
Okay people, consider this your friendly reminder to post on-topic and in full sentences using words that resemble those in the English language.

And if we could nip that whole "Demmykins" think ing the bud, that would be great.:rolleyes:I'll admit that the bolded words resemble words in the English language, so you're following your own rule. Well done, that.

If you balefire gunpowder, would it explode before it was mixed?
Which does naturally bring up Aludra as a candidate for balefiring, as the 13+13 trick probably wouldn't work on her.

jana
11-21-2011, 03:49 PM
free pizza from Dominos

Gross.

I've said my piece.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Yes, I also thought you might get the biggest bang out of balefire by unleashing it on a good guy who just won an epic victory. You undo the last few hours (which seems the max that anyone can do without Choedan Kal) and ressurect anyone they killed. Chaos ensues. Try giving orders when you can't trust your memory of where your troops have been deployed.

The trouble is balefire undoes actions but not ideas.

For example,
Mat says to Rand "The Dark One's left knee is his weak spot," then gets himself balefired.

Now that he's been undone, Mat never said anything to Rand.

But Rand clearly remembers Mat telling him the Dark One's weak spot!

So maybe negating orders on the battlefield by balefiring commanders is not such an effective tactic, unless the point is just to cause general disarray.

You also can't make Rand unlearn a key piece of information by balefiring the person who told him.

But on a similar tack with the Tower of Ghenjei rescue, could you balefire your own minion, Lanfear, and somehow trap Rand who performed the rescue?

Rand enters Moridin's palace and rescues Lanfear. On the way out, she opens a door for Rand. They escape. On arrival at Rand's safehouse, Demandred balefires Lanfear. Lanfear never opened the door in Moridin's palace. Rand is still stuck behind that door because he never opened it himself. He's been captured by the stasis field Moridin erected just after Rand left originally. Moridin sets up a trap that captures Rand when the balefire effect undoes Lanfear's actions! Back in camp, the heroes see Lanfear get balefired, Rand vanish, and the balescream as the Pattern tries to rectify the paradox (How did Lanfear get balefired if Rand is the one who made the Gateway to Rand's camp?)

I think using Lanfear as bait, as a female (Rand's chivalry is his weakness),and as someone who can offer insight into both the Dark One and the nature of his original prison is too tempting for Rand to pass up.

Another tricky plan would be to let a lowlife Rand minion like Juilin kill Demandred, or just knock him out. The other baddies have orders to balefire Juilin AFTER he gets Demandred out of the way. Juilin's actions are undone, and from out of nowhere, Demandred pops back to life and consciousness, and lays into Rand from behind. Is he a gambler enough to take that kind of risk for that gain? He is if the Great Lord tells him to!

Anyway, Brandon likes rule-based magic. Balefire is nothing but rules. Demandred still hasn't unleashed the balefire.

So, any other wild balefire scenarios we can play out to defeat the most hated Dragon?

WinespringBrother
11-21-2011, 09:57 PM
Yes, I also thought you might get the biggest bang out of balefire by unleashing it on a good guy who just won an epic victory. You undo the last few hours (which seems the max that anyone can do without Choedan Kal) and ressurect anyone they killed. Chaos ensues. Try giving orders when you can't trust your memory of where your troops have been deployed.

The trouble is balefire undoes actions but not ideas.

For example,
Mat says to Rand "The Dark One's left knee is his weak spot," then gets himself balefired.

Now that he's been undone, Mat never said anything to Rand.

But Rand clearly remembers Mat telling him the Dark One's weak spot!

So maybe negating orders on the battlefield by balefiring commanders is not such an effective tactic, unless the point is just to cause general disarray.

You also can't make Rand unlearn a key piece of information by balefiring the person who told him.

But on a similar tack with the Tower of Ghenjei rescue, could you balefire your own minion, Lanfear, and somehow trap Rand who performed the rescue?

Rand enters Moridin's palace and rescues Lanfear. On the way out, she opens a door for Rand. They escape. On arrival at Rand's safehouse, Demandred balefires Lanfear. Lanfear never opened the door in Moridin's palace. Rand is still stuck behind that door because he never opened it himself. He's been captured by the stasis field Moridin erected just after Rand left originally. Moridin sets up a trap that captures Rand when the balefire effect undoes Lanfear's actions! Back in camp, the heroes see Lanfear get balefired, Rand vanish, and the balescream as the Pattern tries to rectify the paradox (How did Lanfear get balefired if Rand is the one who made the Gateway to Rand's camp?)

I think using Lanfear as bait, as a female (Rand's chivalry is his weakness),and as someone who can offer insight into both the Dark One and the nature of his original prison is too tempting for Rand to pass up.

Another tricky plan would be to let a lowlife Rand minion like Juilin kill Demandred, or just knock him out. The other baddies have orders to balefire Juilin AFTER he gets Demandred out of the way. Juilin's actions are undone, and from out of nowhere, Demandred pops back to life and consciousness, and lays into Rand from behind. Is he a gambler enough to take that kind of risk for that gain? He is if the Great Lord tells him to!

Anyway, Brandon likes rule-based magic. Balefire is nothing but rules. Demandred still hasn't unleashed the balefire.

So, any other wild balefire scenarios we can play out to defeat the most hated Dragon?

You need to get out more, GL ;) (oh sorry, my bad, we are still working on that prison cell thingy) but there are a couple of points of information I must point out:

1) Mat Cauthon seems to be immune to direct weaves, so balefiring him might be a problem.

2) Observations of reversing actions using balefire seem to be a mixed bag. For example, when Rand al'Thor balefired King Gaebril, it undid the lightning attacks that killed Jasin Natael and Mat Cauthon, but not Gaebril's flight to the dreamworld where al'Thor chased and killed him *to avenge his friends that were killed by said lightning. Just thinking about that circular causality gives me a headache!

*ETA

Great Lord of the Dark
11-21-2011, 10:27 PM
I used Mat as an example, but his ter'angeal escape clause would apply, of course.

On point 2 however, there is no circular causality. Gabriel died and his actions of the previous half hour were undone. Rand still believes he saw Gaebril make a portal to T'A'R and follows, even though NO ONE WAS THERE! Rand was conducting an imaginary battle against an imaginary foe who had already been killed. Rand was seeking revenge as you describe, except the people he was avenging were still alive. Rand was delusional, as most people find they have been when caught in balefire effects. The cool thing is how Rand can learn attacks and defenses during his one-sided battle with the man who wasn't there!

greatwolf
11-22-2011, 03:33 AM
I used Mat as an example, but his ter'angeal escape clause would apply, of course.

On point 2 however, there is no circular causality.

What happens when you try balefire on a taveren? Is it like trying to BF the pattern itself? How will the pattern react to its weaving being undone? Of course, that's if it allows it to be undone in the first place.

Most BF effects are simply the result of the pattern trying to fill in the void left by the removal of an object or person prior to present time. But how will it cope with its "own" actions being removed?

Maybe it will do the most effective thing: prevent it! Alter chance around the taveren! Demandred will most likely get killed if he tries BF on any of the taveren. Here's a recollection:

Where is this place? he wondered. More important, where is Ba'alzamon?
As if to answer him, a blazing shaft like the one Moiraine had made shot out of the shadows among the columns, straight toward his chest. His wrist twisted the sword instinctively; it was instinct as much as anything else that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him. His uncertain balance between existence and destruction wavered. Surely that torrent would consume him.
The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor – and parted on its edge, forking to stream past on either side. He felt his coat singe from its near passage, smelled the wool beginning to burn. Behind him, the two prongs of frozen fire, of liquid light, struck huge redstone columns; where they struck, stone ceased to exist, and the burning bars bored through to other columns, severing those instantaneously as well. The Heart of the Stone rumbled as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone fragments. What fell into the light, however, simply was not, anymore.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2011, 03:38 AM
Balefire Alanna, and the Dragon will go into a berserker rage an hour before you do this. That will mess up his plans, won't it?

Lupusdeusest
11-22-2011, 05:53 AM
I do like the sounds of activating the Omega-13 on Alanna.

Landro
11-22-2011, 06:52 AM
I do like the sounds of activating the Omega-13 on Alanna.

I'm not sure if 13 seconds would do the trick ;)

greatwolf
11-22-2011, 09:34 AM
Balefire Alanna, and the Dragon will go into a berserker rage an hour before you do this. That will mess up his plans, won't it?

That may not even be so because of the other bonds. In rescuing a warder whose AS has died, three things are said to be needed and Rand has all three (iirc). He's bonded, has a higher purpose and has three women who love him. Sorry no rage.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-22-2011, 09:49 AM
Let's say Alanna gets balefired back an hour. What happens?

First, her actions are undone, most likely some healing, linking, fireballs and other assorted damage. Any circle or link she particpated in was either never formed or was weaker. Some baddies may suddenly discover they rae less hurt, or are actually not dead. The effect is the same as for any battlefield balefiring. If she was linked with some men, maybe the circle never formed. All battle particpants, good or bad, would have believed that the circle was formed and acted accordingly. Suddenly, things have changed, they all assess the situation and go back to finishing the battle.

Anything Alanna told anyone, they still know.

Anything Rand felt through the bond for the last hour, he still believes he felt. Her happiness, alarm, anger, all of that is still what Rand felt up until the balefiring moment.

Then suddenly, he has lost his Aes Sedai. He acts as any warder would as though she had just died that moment, even though it happened an hour earlier. He has not behaved any differently, because for an hour, his behaviour has been based on a reality that never existed. He may not have been bonded any more for that hour, but he believed he was bonded and acted as a bonded Warder with a live Aes Seadi would act.

I think with all the other bonds Rand has with others, his reaction to Alanna's death would be muted as compared to other warders reactions that we have seen.

So, Alanna is a tempting target, but balefiring her may be no more effective than balefiring any other high-ranking ally of Rand's.

Regarding balefiring of ta'veren, I assume the Forsaken have given up on direct ta'veren assaults given the poor success rate over the last two books. This is why I think a balefire trap with secondary characters is a more plausible plan with a better chance of success. Balefire works best as a situation-creator, not an assassination attempt. Think of the rules, and trap Rand with them.

A shrapnel trap could work well. Set up an exploding weave behind a door that has been opened by Rand's ally. Balefire the ally, Rand reappears behind the door. His presence activates the weave you set after he walked through the door. Ka-Boom!

WinespringBrother
11-22-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm not sure that our understanding of how balefire works is complete. It apparently does not undo all actions. Besides the previous given example of Rand and Rahvin, there is also the scene where Rand balefired Semirhage, but that did not undo the placing of the collar on Rand, since it did not reappear in an unblown-up state, which it would have been if all threads were reset. Also if the collar placement were undone, Elza would not have entered the room, since she did that after the collar was placed.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-22-2011, 10:50 AM
Let's look at the scenario.

Rand uses the True Power to destroy the collar. I don't see how True Power use would affect the balefire result.

Rand balefires Semirhage and Elza. So the things they did never happened. Even an hour of undone actions would still allow everything to work out: Rand was still clapped in a collar, and still tried to kill Min. Even though Semirhage ordered Rand to kill Min, she never actually uttered the order. But Rand believes she did! He further believes that he is unable to resist the order and uncontrollably tried to kill her even though no collar was around his neck. Rand has been behaving as though Semirhage's escape and collar theft took place and staying within the confines of the imaginary scenario he believes he was living.

Given that the busted up collar is in Cadsuane's hands shortly after and is till broken instead of being safely locked in her warded box, I would say that Rand undid maybe only 20 seconds of Semirhage's and Elza's miserable lives.

Balefire undoes the physical things that were done by the one who was balefired, but does not undo the behaviour of those who beleived they were interacting with the one who was balefired.

WinespringBrother
11-22-2011, 11:21 AM
I'm only trying to point out, that when the balefire do be unleashed finally, we may learn some cool new uses/properties for/of that weave. And maybe some coherent explanation for how it works :D:eek::p

Great Lord of the Dark
11-22-2011, 12:25 PM
I agree that we may learn more cool balefire properties, or have it better explained.

And it better be better explained, because there are maybe 3 Theorylanders who have a good understanding of how it works, and I suspect most readers who just shrug and say 'things get undone, cool.'

By Brandon's own first law, if the magic is being used to get heroes out of jams, the rules surrounding its use have to be well understood or readers will lose interest. It would be a shame to generate a collective shrug and feel the solution was contrived after the last 13 books. RJ made several attempts to explain balefire, and we've had many examples of its use that are clear, if not thoroughly explained. He left us some figuring to do on our own.

Anyway, I'm optimistic given Brandon's success with his other magic systems and their rules being used as solutions in the final battles of his other series. I expect we'll see a refresher explanation fo balefire in the first 8 chapters of the new book.

Seeker
11-30-2011, 12:32 AM
I think it' Morgase.

Demandred has been ordered to balefire Morgase.

That way, her annoying squaking children will never have existed and the Dark One can go back to reading his paper.

Oden
11-30-2011, 08:18 AM
To prevent her children you have to Balefire away 20 years or so. The amount of Power Rand used at Asan'gar was vast. He did not remove Halima's freeing of Moghedien, even if that was a matter of months, not years.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Ah, but when getting rid of Gawyn, Demandred would have the Pattern itself helping him, now wouldn't he?

thomwoosley
11-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Why limit the target to one person? Balefire them all. The whole reason they stopped using balefire in the AoL was that it damaged the Pattern.

This time the DO wants to destroy the Wheel and shred the Pattern. So, balefire anyone and everyone. Balefire the cities. Balefire with the strongest weave you can to tear the Pattern.

I interpret the DO's question somewhat literally. Unleash the balefire I take as meaning use without restraint.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Yeah, but the problem is that Demandred doesn't want the Pattern obliterated, he wants to be in charge of it. So the DO has to be a bit subtle in order to trick his minion into going along with the plan.

Zombie Sammael
11-30-2011, 01:34 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that Demandred doesn't want the Pattern obliterated, he wants to be in charge of it. So the DO has to be a bit subtle in order to trick his minion into going along with the plan.

Not so much with Moridin, though. Why has Moridin been messing about with the Dragon when he could just be Balefiring everything?

Crispin's Crispian
11-30-2011, 03:05 PM
Not so much with Moridin, though. Why has Moridin been messing about with the Dragon when he could just be Balefiring everything?

The answer is fairly simple. Balefiring everything won't release the Dark One, but something about capturing Rand was critically important (see Moridin's game of sha'rah).

Now, however, that doesn't appear to be a valid option. In ToM, Rand says to Min:


"It's all right, Min. The time when it could silence me quietly—and therefore win—has passed. The confrontation is assured and the scream that begins the avalanche has been sounded."

[and]

"The time for hiding is past, Min. The Shadow made its play for me and lost. It is a war, not subterfuge, that turns the day now."

eht slat meit
11-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Not so much with Moridin, though. Why has Moridin been messing about with the Dragon when he could just be Balefiring everything?

From my pov, that's actually a really deep (in terms of story, not philosophy) question, maybe deeper than intended.

I'm guessing that Moridin is the Nae'bliss not just as some cheap trinket of a reward, but because his outlook most closely reflects that of the DO itself. It doesn't need some lust-blinded, or power-grubbing, or vengeance-seeking Chosen as its champion, but someone who - either in outlook or goal - is most closely affiliated with its cause.

What is that cause exactly? It's been suggested over the course of the series that this goal is less about killing the Dragon than corrupting him.

If the DO seeks Pattern annihilation, that's certainly achievable with the Dragon at hand, but why bother when one possesses a nihilistic Chosen who would likely do the same without compunction?

It's playing a subtler game, I think, with something else entirely in mind. True access to Randland, maybe?

All those millenia ago, an operation called the Bore was performed, one that allowed the DO's influence to spill over the world unhindered. There were no seals to block It, and It possessed a far greater level of access than it had now... but ultimately it still lost - LTT and Company sealed its prison. If the DO was free before that imprisoning, how did they corner it? Was it truly free, or is that its sole point of access?

To try and put it more precisely - the DO only seems to be able to affect the Pattern through its minions and its immediate presence (Blight).

If the Pattern (src: wot wiki) can only be directly impacted by the actions of those souls upon it, wouldn't the DO need someone like the Dragon, who has a direct link to the land in order to have that same impact? Moridin is useful, but Moridin doesn't have that link.

My speculation is that for some reason the Pattern is what the DO truly covets, perhaps to corrupt it and remake it in its image, or some other dark purpose that does not include utter destruction (at least not while it is imprisoned) It cannot touch the Pattern directly, thus it seeks those who can and have the power to touch it in ways that matter.

In order to get the Dragon, the DO has to make the Wheel use its corrective mechanisms. Balefire and other assorted methods of corruption and damage accomplish that.

$0.02

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2011, 03:29 PM
I think that destroying the Pattern would not necessarily destroy the Wheel. So it is possible that the entire world (and all humans) would be unraveled by excessive use of balefire, while the DO would still be locked in his prison. Then he would not have any chance at breaking out, because there wouldn't be any tools (humans, Ogier, rats, chain letters and such) he could use for chipping away on the prison bars.

Use of balefire would allow the DO to have things (people, whatever) that could be used against him to be removed. And of course it undermines the Pattern, thereby making people lose hope, thus making it more likely that they'll turn to the only source of strength left: the DO.

Zombie Sammael
11-30-2011, 03:56 PM
From my pov, that's actually a really deep (in terms of story, not philosophy) question, maybe deeper than intended.

I'm guessing that Moridin is the Nae'bliss not just as some cheap trinket of a reward, but because his outlook most closely reflects that of the DO itself. It doesn't need some lust-blinded, or power-grubbing, or vengeance-seeking Chosen as its champion, but someone who - either in outlook or goal - is most closely affiliated with its cause.

What is that cause exactly? It's been suggested over the course of the series that this goal is less about killing the Dragon than corrupting him.

If the DO seeks Pattern annihilation, that's certainly achievable with the Dragon at hand, but why bother when one possesses a nihilistic Chosen who would likely do the same without compunction?

It's playing a subtler game, I think, with something else entirely in mind. True access to Randland, maybe?

All those millenia ago, an operation called the Bore was performed, one that allowed the DO's influence to spill over the world unhindered. There were no seals to block It, and It possessed a far greater level of access than it had now... but ultimately it still lost - LTT and Company sealed its prison. If the DO was free before that imprisoning, how did they corner it? Was it truly free, or is that its sole point of access?

To try and put it more precisely - the DO only seems to be able to affect the Pattern through its minions and its immediate presence (Blight).

If the Pattern (src: wot wiki) can only be directly impacted by the actions of those souls upon it, wouldn't the DO need someone like the Dragon, who has a direct link to the land in order to have that same impact? Moridin is useful, but Moridin doesn't have that link.

My speculation is that for some reason the Pattern is what the DO truly covets, perhaps to corrupt it and remake it in its image, or some other dark purpose that does not include utter destruction (at least not while it is imprisoned) It cannot touch the Pattern directly, thus it seeks those who can and have the power to touch it in ways that matter.

In order to get the Dragon, the DO has to make the Wheel use its corrective mechanisms. Balefire and other assorted methods of corruption and damage accomplish that.

$0.02

I have held for a while that the DO's goal is not total destruction, as is widely believed, but a horrific remaking of the world according to his own twisted desires. So, I agree with your reasoning her, as well as what Gonzo said. Just destroying the Pattern isn't anywhere near enough for the Dark One to win, not least because if he does so, the Wheel can still spin a new pattern. First corrupting the Pattern is necessary, even if the ultimate goal is to destroy the Wheel. This also explains why certain turnings where the Dragon sided with the DO did not lead to the destruction of the world: phase one was completed, but stopped before reaching phase two (perhaps why we have Mat and Perrin, not just Rand, and also Logain and Egwene and others, too). Since the Dragon is one with the land - which might in this instance read "the Pattern" - corrupting the Dragon is at least an important step to corrupting the Pattern.

eht slat meit
11-30-2011, 03:58 PM
Then he would not have any chance at breaking out, because there wouldn't be any tools (humans, Ogier, rats, chain letters and such) he could use for chipping away on the prison bars.


The most intriguing part of that, to my eyes, is this question: What is the nature of the DO's prison, and is it truly a prison?

If it is a prison, does that mean that during the time between Meirin's researchers opening the Bore and LTT's companions sealing it - does that mean that time period was one where the DO freely roamed the world?

If it's not a prison, precisely, what is it? A rough gateway?

Zombie Sammael
11-30-2011, 04:17 PM
The most intriguing part of that, to my eyes, is this question: What is the nature of the DO's prison, and is it truly a prison?

If it is a prison, does that mean that during the time between Meirin's researchers opening the Bore and LTT's companions sealing it - does that mean that time period was one where the DO freely roamed the world?

If it's not a prison, precisely, what is it? A rough gateway?

I think it's best described by analogy. Imagine you are in a prison cell made of stone. You cannot affect anything on the outside of the cell whatsoever. Now imagine someone drills into the cell, about large enough for you to reach an arm through. You cannot get out, but you can touch the world outside to some extent. That's the bore. From there, you can touch the outside, and you can also work to make the hole bigger so that you can get out. If someone then patches that imperfectly, you'd be restricted in touching the world until you'd got through the patch.

The DO is actually more like liquid than a person in some respects, so he's able to flow through the tiniest of cracks, but the bulk of himself remains trapped. The tiny parts that escape and go off on their own become bubbles of evil, and more and more appear as he grows closer to escaping.

During the time between the bore and the sealing, he was able to touch the world but only to this limited extent. When he gets out, that will allow him to properly affect the world, and destroy it or remake it as he chooses.

eht slat meit
11-30-2011, 05:29 PM
I think it's best described by analogy. Imagine you are in a prison cell made of stone. You cannot affect anything on the outside of the cell whatsoever. Now imagine someone drills into the cell, about large enough for you to reach an arm through. You cannot get out, but you can touch the world outside to some extent. That's the bore. From there, you can touch the outside, and you can also work to make the hole bigger so that you can get out. If someone then patches that imperfectly, you'd be restricted in touching the world until you'd got through the patch.

The DO is actually more like liquid than a person in some respects, so he's able to flow through the tiniest of cracks, but the bulk of himself remains trapped. The tiny parts that escape and go off on their own become bubbles of evil, and more and more appear as he grows closer to escaping.

During the time between the bore and the sealing, he was able to touch the world but only to this limited extent. When he gets out, that will allow him to properly affect the world, and destroy it or remake it as he chooses.

Oh geez, I'm such a 'tard. It didn't even occur to me to look in BWB, which I'm basically just repeating without even realizing it. Yeah, your analogy is almost right, except that according to the BWB, it's outside the Pattern, not a cell exactly. But yeah, similar concept.

jana
11-30-2011, 05:34 PM
someone should have told the Dark One it's not polite to talk in caps.

Marie Curie 7
11-30-2011, 09:48 PM
someone should have told the Dark One it's not polite to talk in caps.

From the mouth of the Creator:

AOL Chat 2, October 21, 1994 (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/fa3a418f3e9e0076)

Question: When you get writers block, what do you do to get it back into form?

RJ: i'VE NEVER HAD WRITER'S (SORRY) block—but I've sometimes had caps lock.

Zombie Sammael
12-01-2011, 03:37 AM
Oh geez, I'm such a 'tard. It didn't even occur to me to look in BWB, which I'm basically just repeating without even realizing it. Yeah, your analogy is almost right, except that according to the BWB, it's outside the Pattern, not a cell exactly. But yeah, similar concept.

Hah. I no longer own the BWB, but that's probably where I get this from. In any case, I believe that at one point someone suggests the Pattern IS the DO's prison, so the prison is inside of but not actually a part of it. I could be misremembering though.

eht slat meit
12-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Hah. I no longer own the BWB, but that's probably where I get this from. In any case, I believe that at one point someone suggests the Pattern IS the DO's prison, so the prison is inside of but not actually a part of it. I could be misremembering though.

That actually makes a good deal of sense, and would explain the presence of the Blight. The corruption suggests to me that the DO maintains its presence at the seals of the Bore. I can't see such a thing being by choice (though we don't have any insight to the DO's brain to base a conclusion on), indicating its either trapped, or requires that proximity to continue influencing those who aren't directly tied to it.