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View Full Version : Prisons - Slavery by the backdoor


Tomp
12-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Saw this from the UK show QI.

Just throwing it out there. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc1gF-XicUM

Feel free to comment.

Sei'taer
12-06-2011, 05:13 PM
I think the three strikes law is stupid.

That said, I have no problem with prisoners working while they're in prison. I think they should work or go to school. The school part has to have it's own set of rules though, like maintaining a certain GPA to be allowed to continue.

I have a whole lot of opinions about our prison system that will never happen.

Ivhon
12-06-2011, 05:22 PM
I think the three strikes law is stupid.

That said, I have no problem with prisoners working while they're in prison. I think they should work or go to school. The school part has to have it's own set of rules though, like maintaining a certain GPA to be allowed to continue.

I have a whole lot of opinions about our prison system that will never happen.

100% agree with both points

Davian93
12-06-2011, 05:49 PM
That said, I have no problem with prisoners working while they're in prison.



http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/suicideshawshank.jpg
AGREES

Crispin's Crispian
12-06-2011, 07:05 PM
I have a lot of thoughts about it too, but I'll post just a few here. First, in order to call it "slavery" you would have to show evidence that people are being arrested so they can produce things in prison. I haven't see evidence for that, but damn if it doesn't sound like a fantastic plot for a book. (Mine! Don't take it!)

Second, I remember many years ago I had a discussion with my father about prison workers versus unions. It boiled down to the government contracting out prison labor to large companies who didn't want to pay the much higher union wages. While I don't have a particular philosophical problem pertaining to productive prisoners, I do question those who decry outsourcing to India or Mexico but are in favor of outsourcing to prisoners.

Third, it's not just about three strikes, it's also about mandatory minimum sentences. That was huge here in Oregon, and there's still a group that tries broaden the mandatory minimum net with every election. These laws take any discretion out of the hands of a judge and forces him or her to ignore all other circumstances.

Davian93
12-06-2011, 08:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Yeah, that would be tough to find...proof of this sort of scam that is.

Crispin's Crispian
12-06-2011, 09:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Yeah, that would be tough to find...proof of this sort of scam that is.

I did a little research after I posted that, and found this (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/06/americas-prisons)interesting commentary in the Economist. Not only is there an incentive to imprison people to do work, but also to keep the prison management industry in business.

Terez
12-06-2011, 10:59 PM
I did a little research after I posted that, and found this (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/06/americas-prisons)interesting commentary in the Economist. Not only is there an incentive to imprison people to do work, but also to keep the prison management industry in business.Key words:
For years criminal-justice reform failed because it was seen as soft on crime. No politician wants to advocate for murderers and child molesters (never mind that most prisoners are in for non-violent drug offences).
Fortunately, there is an Occupy Prisons (http://www.facebook.com/groups/234876979906508/) Facebook page.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2011, 05:00 AM
That said, I have no problem with prisoners working while they're in prison.As was mentioned in that QI fragment, the USA does have clear rules about not importing stuff made by prison labor. So this is yet another example of "do as we say, not as we do".

If the USA were to apply its own moral standard to itself, then prisons would be far less lucrative.

Sei'taer, do you have any problem with buying stuff that was made by forced labor of Chinese political prisoners?

Sarevok
12-07-2011, 05:09 AM
As was mentioned in that QI fragment, the USA does have clear rules about not importing stuff made by prison labor. So this is yet another example of "do as we say, not as we do".

It also mentions that those prisons produce things like dog-tags and helmets. If true, does that mean US soldiers have to leave those in Iraq and Afghanistan before boarding their plane home? :eek:
Otherwise, the US military would be the biggest smuggling ring in the world. :confused:

Sei'taer
12-07-2011, 08:55 AM
Sei'taer, do you have any problem with buying stuff that was made by forced labor of Chinese political prisoners?


I suppose that I must be. It appears you are too considering the rate of imports from China to the Netherlands. It fits well with your theory of moral relativism.


On topic, since I obviously offended GtG in another thread and he is now attempting to troll me. Prisoners in the Netherlands work four hours a day and earn 25 euros a week. That works out to about the same as prisoners in the US. The only place I could find in europe where prisoners don't work was some in Norway, called the "cushy prison" experiment. I even found an article that showed that some prisons were offering to buy prisoners from other countries in order to fill cells. That sounds more slavey than making them work.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2011, 09:55 AM
I don't think that if prisoners refuse to work in the Netherlands they're put into solitary confinement. I could be wrong about that, and if I am, then that too is evil.

The idea of letting them do work is not really bad. The idea of letting them do work and then paying them far below the minimum wage is bad. And the idea of punishing them if they refuse to work is even worse; that's what it really turns into a form of slavery.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 11:22 AM
I will admit I haven't dug in on all of this but I have questions

while imprisoned do they pay for:
healthcare
janitorial services to clean up their cells
food
water/electricity/utilities for the prison housing
property taxes
clothing
toilet paper
female toiletries
etc (shall I go on?)

remind me what stay at home mothers make????
oh, that's right, nothing. and they pay all of the above. and they create, carry, birth, feed, educate, clothe, transport and help control the future generations so they don't COMMIT CRIMES AND GO TO JAIL.

SLAVERY!!! SLAVERY!!!!! I bet it is a big plot and FORCED procreation is happening!!! JUST so they can produce evil-doers and force them to make office furniture!! So a small group of people can be RICH!!!!!
:rolleyes::eek::cool:

Gilshalos Sedai
12-07-2011, 11:33 AM
I will admit I haven't dug in on all of this but I have questions

while imprisoned do they pay for:
healthcare
janitorial services to clean up their cells
food
water/electricity/utilities for the prison housing
property taxes
clothing
toilet paper
female toiletries
etc (shall I go on?)

remind me what stay at home mothers make????
oh, that's right, nothing. and they pay all of the above. and they create, carry, birth, feed, educate, clothe, transport and help control the future generations so they don't COMMIT CRIMES AND GO TO JAIL.

SLAVERY!!! SLAVERY!!!!! I bet it is a big plot and FORCED procreation is happening!!! JUST so they can produce evil-doers and force them to make office furniture!! So a small group of people can be RICH!!!!!
:rolleyes::eek::cool:

The real reason to be "pro-life." /sagenod.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2011, 11:42 AM
tl;dqDoes that mean that the Americans aren't mad at the Iranians because they kept a bunch of embassy staff locked up, but because they didn't force those people to work?

The real reason to be "pro-life." /sagenod.Repped you for that.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 11:54 AM
Does that mean that the Americans aren't mad at the Iranians because they kept a bunch of embassy staff locked up, but because they didn't force those people to work?



Gonzo, part of your argument (hello, Iranian hostages) seems pointless when you completely dismiss the fact folks in prison HAD LAWYERS to try to keep them OUT OF JAIL and had a chance to prove their innocence and actually committed crimes that are, gee, written down and accepted by...wait for it...99% of the population.

My point was (which I admit was hard to decipher if you didn't even read it) maybe, maybe, maybe, the cost of incarceration is taken in to consideration when setting the wages for these folks (and I am talking the general prison population in the US). I don't know, I am taking a stab in the dark here. I also was trying to be sarcastic to point out what a load of crap this is to argue about. But what else is new around here????

Davian93
12-07-2011, 12:04 PM
Being a prisoner means you forfeit all sorts of rights (like the right to vote in elections)...so paying them less is okay in my book.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 12:06 PM
AND additionally, the show in the original post is a COMEDY QUIZ SHOW. Just wondering about the veracity of all the data. Cuz, ya know, data CAN'T be skewed at all. Ever. :D

Terez
12-07-2011, 12:14 PM
Gonzo, part of your argument (hello, Iranian hostages) seems pointless when you completely dismiss the fact folks in prison HAD LAWYERS to try to keep them OUT OF JAIL and had a chance to prove their innocence and actually committed crimes that are, gee, written down and accepted by...wait for it...99% of the population.Not even close (http://www.gallup.com/poll/150149/record-high-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx).

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 12:22 PM
Pull the details that show the folks in PRISON, not jail, PRISON, who are making the office furniture, etc in question are there due to occasional or personal MARIJUANA use. If you disagree with that law, change it. Like it was here in Michigan (at least for medical purposes). Oh, that's right. 99% of those folks can't be bothered to vote.

And thank you, for proving my point (sarcastically intended btw) that data can't be skewed.

Tomp
12-07-2011, 02:07 PM
AND additionally, the show in the original post is a COMEDY QUIZ SHOW. Just wondering about the veracity of all the data. Cuz, ya know, data CAN'T be skewed at all. Ever. :D

The show QI (quite interesting have a dire group of researchers finding (as it says) quite interesting information that the panelists then talk about in a comedic tone.

There has been instances where details have been wrong. For example this where the temperature is a little off http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7SOLBuy8HI

There was a thing about the moon that was inaccurate as well but I didn't find that now.

But generally they are accurate in their facts although sometimes angled a little in its presentation for a more comedic effect.

AbbeyRoad
12-07-2011, 03:14 PM
I always thought prisoners should work for themselves. I heard an idea once that I liked revolving around the concept that prisoners work for themselves. They farm their own food, cook it, sew their own clothes, etc. Obviously it has some problems, but it could reduce taxpayer dollars spent on criminals.

Davian93
12-07-2011, 03:16 PM
I always thought prisoners should work for themselves. I heard an idea once that I liked revolving around the concept that prisoners work for themselves. They farm their own food, cook it, sew their own clothes, etc. Obviously it has some problems, but it could reduce taxpayer dollars spent on criminals.

We could also decriminalize drugs and clear out probably a good third of our current inmates while also cutting down on violence in the Southwest.

But then, prison is a fine place for non-violent offenders. Afterall, having crack cocaine is definitely the same as violently raping someone.

Terez
12-07-2011, 08:07 PM
Pull the details that show the folks in PRISON, not jail, PRISON, who are making the office furniture, etc in question are there due to occasional or personal MARIJUANA use.I already provided a quote from Crispy's article above that states a well-known point: Most people in PRISON are there for non-violent drug offenses.


If you disagree with that law, change it. Like it was here in Michigan (at least for medical purposes). Oh, that's right. 99% of those folks can't be bothered to vote.
You really are an idiot aren't you?

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 09:11 PM
You really are an idiot aren't you?

:D Guess so, after all your opinion is the one that counts :D

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-07-2011, 09:13 PM
I already provided a quote from Crispy's article above that states a well-known point: Most people in PRISON are there for non-violent drug offenses.

And your rebuttal to ME was specifically about MARIJUANA and how age affects whether folks want it legalized. Which has nothing to do with anything. Drug offenses are a wee bit more complicated than that. Not everyone in prison is there for personal marijuana use. Regardless whether people feel it should be legalized, most folks recognize IT IS CURRENTLY AGAINST THE LAW. That is MY point. The laws are WRITTEN down and accepted as CURRENT law by most people--you know the laws and you choose whether to break them. I would swear most people who toke do so quietly, privately and do not flaunt it for legal reasons. Because they understand it is against the law.

AbbeyRoad
12-08-2011, 05:04 PM
Regardless whether people feel it should be legalized, most folks recognize IT IS CURRENTLY AGAINST THE LAW. That is MY point.
It's also against the law to speed and run stop signs, even at night when there isn't a car in sight. So surely no one has ever done that?

We should always question why a law is in place rather than simply accept that because it is a law, it is some sort of universal truth. In Missouri it is apparently illegal to have oral sex (*ahem I'm sorry: "fix a grilled cheese sandwich"*), but something tells me people don't recognize that law. In Kansas City, the installation of bathtubs with four legs resembling animal paws is prohibited. Not only is it illegal to have sex with the lights on in Virginia, one may not have sex in any position other than missionary.In Ottumwa, Iowa, "It is unlawful for any male person, within the corporate limits of the (city), to wink at any female person with whom he is unacquainted." In Los Angeles, you cannot bathe two babies in the same tub at the same time. In Zion, Ill., it is illegal for anyone to give lighted cigars to dogs, cats, and other domesticated animals kept as pets. In St. Louis, it's illegal to sit on the curb of any city street and drink beer from a bucket. In Maryland, you must sign a waver in order to get meat cooked any less than "well done" from any restaurant.

18.2-361. Crimes against nature.
A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute
animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the
anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to
such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class
6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.

B. Any person who carnally knows by the anus or by or with
the mouth his daughter or granddaughter, son or grandson,
brother or sister, or father or mother shall be guilty of a
Class 5 felony. However, if a parent or grandparent commits
any such act with his child or grandchild and such child or
grandchild is at least thirteen but less than eighteen
years of age at the time of the offense, such parent or
grandparent shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony.
The point being, just because something is a law does not mean it should be a law.

The government would make a lot of money from taxing marijuana, and save an incredible amount of money fighting it. The only reason marijuana is illegal and alcohol is legal is because they tried making alcohol illegal once and it didn't turn out so well; people apparently aren't as vocally volatile about marijuana.

Crispin's Crispian
12-08-2011, 05:49 PM
The point being, just because something is a law does not mean it should be a law.

Of course not, but the fact that a law is stupid doesn't mean you should bitch and moan if you get caught breaking it. Know anyone who runs a stop sign when no other car is in sight but the police car behind them? No, because that would be stupid.

Res_Ipsa
12-08-2011, 07:27 PM
Of course not, but the fact that a law is stupid doesn't mean you should bitch and moan if you get caught breaking it. Know anyone who runs a stop sign when no other car is in sight but the police car behind them? No, because that would be stupid.

Hey, deterrence works when the possibility of punishment is nigh . . . go figure.


On a side note:
http://www.redding.com/news/2011/oct/22/intruder-shooting-appears-justified/

You go girl. I like the 911 call where the operator is telling the woman not to shoot the man that cops were on their way/in the area. California not being a castle doctrine state there had to be an inquiry as to whether lethal force is justified.

More to the point of this thread the dude was just released due to overcrowding of the local jail.