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Ishara
12-13-2011, 08:11 AM
SO. Has anyone had accupuncture done? regularly? Does it work? Did you like it? Is massage therapy better?

I paid someone to jab needles in my EAR last week, and I figured I should ask. LOL

Terez
12-13-2011, 08:20 AM
I have a friend who went to school for it in Houston and swears by it, but she's also a pretty big believer in astrology, so take that for what it's worth.

Ivhon
12-13-2011, 09:49 AM
Ive tried it a couple of times...don't much like it.

On the other hand, I am giving serious consideration to getting a massage therapy license

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-13-2011, 09:51 AM
SO. Has anyone had accupuncture done? regularly? Does it work? Did you like it? Is massage therapy better?

I paid someone to jab needles in my EAR last week, and I figured I should ask. LOL

A friend's sister runs a shop in the Boston area and is quite good. I was given some accupressure headache relief/techniques from her which worked great for me.

I have not personally tried the actual acupuncture beyond the ear thing either (that worked for the intended issue), but everyone I know who does says very good things...

Davian93
12-13-2011, 10:27 AM
I have a friend who went to school for it in Houston and swears by it, but she's also a pretty big believer in astrology, so take that for what it's worth.

Does she look like this?

http://images.wikia.com/harrypotter/images/4/4d/1270889509174_f.jpg

AbbeyRoad
12-13-2011, 05:54 PM
It can work, but that could be attributed to placebo affect or unintended consequences. Being trained in western medicine, I'm ingrained to despise any eastern medicine. However, my mother is a chiropractor and I've seen enough acupuncture to believe it can help, if not always in the way they think it does. We don't know enough of the working of the human body to rule anything out. In short; if you feel better afterwards, why not?

Res_Ipsa
12-13-2011, 07:51 PM
I think there is some value in it but I do not take the approach that bc it is ancient it must be good; there is a reason why we live 40years on average longer.

GonzoTheGreat
12-14-2011, 05:50 AM
I think there is some value in it but I do not take the approach that bc it is ancient it must be good; there is a reason why we live 40years on average longer.
Sewers. And clean drinking water.
Sure, medicine also has a bit of an impact, but nowhere near as much as those two.

Davian93
12-14-2011, 08:30 AM
Sewers. And clean drinking water.
Sure, medicine also has a bit of an impact, but nowhere near as much as those two.

Okay, Okay...besides that, what ELSE has Rome ever done for us?!?

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-14-2011, 10:19 AM
Okay, Okay...besides that, what ELSE has Rome ever done for us?!?

1. Togas, which in turn, led to
2. THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI)

which I personally feel could be a mantra for every Theorylander here who grabs hold and won't let go of their beliefs

So, Rome gave us Theorylanders.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-14-2011, 10:31 AM
1. Togas, which in turn, led to
2. THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI)

which I personally feel could be a mantra for every Theorylander here who grabs hold and won't let go of their beliefs

So, Rome gave us Theorylanders.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est)

it's amazing how little politics has changed in 2000+ years.

AbbeyRoad
12-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Okay, Okay...besides that, what ELSE has Rome ever done for us?!?
Logic.

Res_Ipsa
12-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Most importantly, Rome gave us forum signatures in Latin phrases.

AbbeyRoad
12-14-2011, 05:59 PM
Sewers. And clean drinking water.
Sure, medicine also has a bit of an impact, but nowhere near as much as those two.
Don't forget diet and hygiene.

confused at birth
12-14-2011, 07:52 PM
it can work if the person doing it knows what they are doing

just dont sneeze when they are being put in and never fall asleep because you might forget the needles are there and roll over :eek:

yks 6nnetu hing
12-15-2011, 04:01 AM
Most importantly, Rome gave us forum signatures in Latin phrases.

And pretentious people who resent those just on principle. Both pretty meh to me. back in HS we got to pick: take a test on Roman history or learn 100 Latin phrases. it's pretty amazing how handy those phrases come every now and then.

the best one actually comes from the 1960's when a linguist was lost in Brussels. At the time the French/Flemish language tensions were pretty intense and while he did know French, he didn't know Flemish and he didn't particularly want to get the crap beaten out of him, he didn't want to ask a random person. all of a sudden he sees a catholic monk on the street. He approaches the monk and says:
"Ubi est Hortus Botanicus?"
to which the monk looks at him weirdly for a few seconds and answers:
"Via tertia dextra"

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2011, 05:09 AM
Okay, Okay...besides that, what ELSE has Rome ever done for us?!?
Fast food joints.
Which invention, admittedly, will have reduced the average lifespan by a decade again.

Res_Ipsa
12-15-2011, 05:19 AM
And pretentious people who resent those just on principle. Both pretty meh to me. back in HS we got to pick: take a test on Roman history or learn 100 Latin phrases. it's pretty amazing how handy those phrases come every now and then.

the best one actually comes from the 1960's when a linguist was lost in Brussels. At the time the French/Flemish language tensions were pretty intense and while he did know French, he didn't know Flemish and he didn't particularly want to get the crap beaten out of him, he didn't want to ask a random person. all of a sudden he sees a catholic monk on the street. He approaches the monk and says:
"Ubi est Hortus Botanicus?"
to which the monk looks at him weirdly for a few seconds and answers:
"Via tertia dextra"

You mistake my intention. Trust me, I like latin phrases as well as the next person, law school is full of them, inter alia, but I was mostly just making a wisecrack. After all my sig does say pretentious pig latin phrase here.

Davian93
12-15-2011, 08:24 AM
I took 4 years of Latin in high school...one of the smarter decisions I ever made I think. Sure, I've never really used it other than as a basis for knowing word meanings in romance languages and occasionally English, but it was still fun and useful.

maacaroni
12-15-2011, 09:12 AM
The mechanism of acupuncture makes little sense to me. It is as irrational as reiki, homeopathy and indeed, chiropracy (please note that many chiropractors think it can cure colic and mental health problems amongst other things.)

Until they are proven in clinical trials, I am very reluctant to buy into any of them, in fact, I am downright hostile. I think they are all jostling for position in the group called 'quackery/placebo therapies.'

I would also lump in those charlatans offering last hope pseudo-cures like this lot: http://www.burzynskiclinic.com/ . Taking six figure sums from children with terminal cancer sickens me to the core.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-15-2011, 09:48 AM
The mechanism of acupuncture makes little sense to me. It is as irrational as reiki, homeopathy and indeed, chiropracy (please note that many chiropractors think it can cure colic and mental health problems amongst other things.)

Until they are proven in clinical trials, I am very reluctant to buy into any of them, in fact, I am downright hostile. I think they are all jostling for position in the group called 'quackery/placebo therapies.'

I would also lump in those charlatans offering last hope pseudo-cures like this lot: http://www.burzynskiclinic.com/ . Taking six figure sums from children with terminal cancer sickens me to the core.
The healing power of positive thinking (otherwise known as placebo effect) is actually scientifically proven. So I guess these procedures are as useful as praying, if you believe, though some can be more harmful than praying.

Ishara
12-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Wikipedia leads me to believe that it is at least more effective than praying, so I'll keep you all posted!

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2011, 01:17 PM
Wikipedia leads me to believe that it is at least more effective than praying, so I'll keep you all posted!
Well, with praying it is possible to do a double blind test, where the test subjects don't know whether or not anyone is praying for them. I'm not sure anyone has figured out yet how to do that with acupuncture, so there the placebo effect can't be avoided as easily.

Ishara
12-15-2011, 02:17 PM
I read that, too. ;)

Cor Shan
12-15-2011, 02:36 PM
Well, with praying it is possible to do a double blind test, where the test subjects don't know whether or not anyone is praying for them. I'm not sure anyone has figured out yet how to do that with acupuncture, so there the placebo effect can't be avoided as easily.

I think the best way would be to poke them in random spots as the control.

Also I have no idea what happened in Yks's joke.

Brita
12-15-2011, 06:50 PM
The mechanism of acupuncture makes little sense to me. It is as irrational as reiki, homeopathy and indeed, chiropracy (please note that many chiropractors think it can cure colic and mental health problems amongst other things.)

Until they are proven in clinical trials, I am very reluctant to buy into any of them, in fact, I am downright hostile. I think they are all jostling for position in the group called 'quackery/placebo therapies.'

I would also lump in those charlatans offering last hope pseudo-cures like this lot: http://www.burzynskiclinic.com/ . Taking six figure sums from children with terminal cancer sickens me to the core.

Unfortunately, a well run clinical trial costs a lot of money, and there isn't a lot of money (or return in investment) to be made in acupuncture.

Ivhon
12-15-2011, 11:08 PM
Unfortunately, a well run clinical trial costs a lot of money, and there isn't a lot of money (or return in investment) to be made in acupuncture.

Additionally, inconclusive trials don't get published - conclusive ones do. Therefore, you can have 10 inconclusive trials and one conclusive one and the literature will only include the findings from the conclusive one.

Which is all to say that while the Western empirical medical model is perhaps the best tool we have, it is not the only tool (for example, look at all the lives ruined by empirically validated, clinically tried drugs that actually turned out to not be all that).

Please note that I am NOT saying that the medical model is not important, or that clinical trials for drugs and procedures aren't. They are vital. I am just saying that it is necessary to be critical. Just because something is not blessed by Western Medicine does not necessarily mean that it is quackery. Conversely, just because something is blessed by Western Medicine does not mean that it is necessarily the most effective or safest treatment. There are tons of factors that have nothing to do with "objectivity" that influence studies/trials/data and the results that are or are not published about them.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-16-2011, 06:48 AM
Also I have no idea what happened in Yks's joke.

translation:

"where are the Botanical Gardens?"
"[take the] third street left"

Latin in everyday use, in the 20th century, you just have to know who to talk to ;)

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2011, 07:20 AM
translation:

"where are the Botanical Gardens?"
"[take the] third street left"

Latin in everyday use, in the 20th century, you just have to know who to talk to ;)
But what happened to the water?

Or, in other words: what's the joke? :p

Ivhon
12-16-2011, 08:15 AM
But what happened to the water?

Or, in other words: what's the joke? :p

I think it has to do with the priest. The punchline always has to do with the priest...

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-16-2011, 11:41 AM
I don't care if there isn't scientific support for some homeopathic stuff...some of it does work. And if it cannot hurt, I am usually willing to try it. At least after research.

I mean, come on, humans can be aroused by touch and smell, so why COULDN'T concentrated pinpricks to specific areas elicit a reaction if done correctly?

(I now expect Dav to respond with "Giggity") :D

Davian93
12-16-2011, 12:14 PM
I don't care if there isn't scientific support for some homeopathic stuff...some of it does work. And if it cannot hurt, I am usually willing to try it. At least after research.

I mean, come on, humans can be aroused by touch and smell, so why COULDN'T concentrated pinpricks to specific areas elicit a reaction if done correctly?

(I now expect Dav to respond with "Giggity") :D

I resent the term "pinprick"...

Cor Shan
12-16-2011, 03:39 PM
I think it has to do with the priest. The punchline always has to do with the priest...

Yeah, its like the exact same set up as a joke, then its just latin in everyday use. Which is cool.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-16-2011, 04:49 PM
Yeah, its like the exact same set up as a joke, then its just latin in everyday use. Which is cool.

that, and it's a true story. Like the one about the last official duel fought on my Alma Mater's premises. with forks.

Sarevok
12-16-2011, 05:29 PM
translation:

"where are the Botanical Gardens?"
"[take the] third street left"


*right

yks 6nnetu hing
12-16-2011, 05:41 PM
*right

lol, you're right. it always takes me about 4 times of changing my mind before I figure out which is left and which is right. Excellent quality while giving people instructions, btw.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2011, 07:06 AM
lol, you're right. it always takes me about 4 times of changing my mind before I figure out which is left and which is right. Excellent quality while giving people instructions, btw.
And yet it is so simple, if you just remember Theoryland: Sinistrum comes from sinister. Do you need any more than that?

Figbiscuit
12-20-2011, 06:14 AM
Bit late to the party here, but for what it's worth, if it makes you feel better then go for it. I have an open minded belief to many types of Eastern medicine, I recently had my first Shiatsu massage which was awesome and I will definitely be having further treatments. The same friend who did that has just qualifed as an acupuncture practitioner so I will hopefully be sampling some of that too, and if and when I do I'll let you know how I get on.

I had a Reiki session recently for the first time in a few years, and I'd forgotten just how good it makes me feel.

The shiatsu I am having now is an attempt to help heal a damaged shoulder muscle. The only help, therapy or advice I have ever received from my doctor was to take anti-inflamatories until it didn't hurt anymore. Possibly the most unhelpful advice ever, nor did she refer me for any physio or further treatment. Anything I choose to do now is at my own expense. Frankly I am willing to try anything now just for it to stop impeding on my life :(

Ishara
12-22-2011, 12:54 PM
I had a Reiki session recently for the first time in a few years, and I'd forgotten just how good it makes me feel.

The shiatsu I am having now is an attempt to help heal a damaged shoulder muscle. The only help, therapy or advice I have ever received from my doctor was to take anti-inflamatories until it didn't hurt anymore. Possibly the most unhelpful advice ever, nor did she refer me for any physio or further treatment. Anything I choose to do now is at my own expense. Frankly I am willing to try anything now just for it to stop impeding on my life :(


Ha ha. I just a little judgy moment over Reiki. Sorry! But really, what IS it?

And the issues with my ankle and my inability to fix it are what drove me to acupuncture in the first place. I've done physio and it doesn't help. We know *what* the the problem is, but there seems to be no addressing it beyond the constant intake of heavy anti-inflammatories. Which I have stopped, to discover that what I thought I thought was bad daily pain was actually nothing compared to what it was without the meds. Good times!

So far though, I just have lots of tiny bruises, and no real effect.

Anaiya Sedai
12-27-2011, 03:21 AM
I had acupuncture regularly while trying to conceive Cas and in early pregnancy to try to avoid another miscarriage.
mixed results, but I got a baby out of it in the end. I did go every week, though.
I also had Reflexology when I was overdue, to try to start labour, which didn't work, but it was amazingly relaxing. zero balancing feels great, too.

Figbiscuit
01-03-2012, 11:43 AM
Ha ha. I just a little judgy moment over Reiki. Sorry! But really, what IS it?

And the issues with my ankle and my inability to fix it are what drove me to acupuncture in the first place. I've done physio and it doesn't help. We know *what* the the problem is, but there seems to be no addressing it beyond the constant intake of heavy anti-inflammatories. Which I have stopped, to discover that what I thought I thought was bad daily pain was actually nothing compared to what it was without the meds. Good times!

So far though, I just have lots of tiny bruises, and no real effect.

If I am going to insist on posting here, I really should make more effort to check the boards more often :o

To be totally honest I'm not sure exactly what Reiki does :confused: I can't say that I'd have Reiki rather than chemo if I were being treated for cancer, but I would definitely have it as a supplementary treatment. I believe it is something to do with realignment or promotion of energy flows within the body. Probably totally useless to fix a physical issue, however for me, in terms of promoting a more relaxed and peaceful state of mind, and also the awesome nights sleep I always get after a session keep me a firm supporter of it as an alternative therapy.

fdsaf3
01-03-2012, 12:39 PM
Additionally, inconclusive trials don't get published - conclusive ones do. Therefore, you can have 10 inconclusive trials and one conclusive one and the literature will only include the findings from the conclusive one.

Which is all to say that while the Western empirical medical model is perhaps the best tool we have, it is not the only tool (for example, look at all the lives ruined by empirically validated, clinically tried drugs that actually turned out to not be all that).

Please note that I am NOT saying that the medical model is not important, or that clinical trials for drugs and procedures aren't. They are vital. I am just saying that it is necessary to be critical. Just because something is not blessed by Western Medicine does not necessarily mean that it is quackery. Conversely, just because something is blessed by Western Medicine does not mean that it is necessarily the most effective or safest treatment. There are tons of factors that have nothing to do with "objectivity" that influence studies/trials/data and the results that are or are not published about them.

Oh, fastball down the middle! This one's right in my wheelhouse!

I'll try and contain myself, though I should note that I could probably write a book on this subject and have more to say.

Long story short, I agree completely with Ivhon. Medical research is extremely difficult, and the results from one study are never enough to revolutionize the industry. The phrase that most laypeople use (and really infuriates me, BTW) is "correlation is not causation". Yep, way to throw around a trite and overused phrase that most people don't really understand. What bothers me about using this phrase as it applies to medical research is that yes, it is quite difficult to show treatment X causes improvements in the outcome of interest Y for disease Z. That said, if I find a statistically significant positive association between one of those treatments and an outcome of interest with correlation of .99, you'd better believe that treatment is going to get some further attention in the medical community.

So yeah, it's hard (maybe almost impossible) to prove causality in medical science.

Ivhon's other points are interesting too. Say I'm conducting a clinical trial for cancer treatment. I find a new treatment drug is as effective as the current standard treatment regimen at a fraction of the cost! It's revolutionary! I write up my findings and submit them to the most popular and respected medical journal I can find: the JAMA. There are a few possibilities on how this plays out:

1. The editors at JAMA love my article so much that they publish it immediately. This is extremely unlikely to happen. More likely, we have:

2. The editors at JAMA like the article, but it needs to be refined prior to publication. They send me feedback on what edits they'd like to see before it is resubmitted. Note that these edits are purely subjective feedback given by these editors. Different individuals might recommend different things to focus on for resubmission. It's a crap shoot.

3. Maybe the editors at JAMA are having a bad week, or maybe they don't like me. The review process is supposed to be blind, but in specific research fields at major research institutions (where I work, of course), it's usually pretty obvious who is trying to publish what. My article is turned down for publication without any comments or recommendations for how to get it published.

In cases 1 or 2, my article will probably get published in JAMA. My peers will read it, and it may or may not go on to be a landmark study in treating the cancer I was studying. In case 3, my article will not be published in JAMA. Maybe I go to a second-tier (or third-tier) journal, and maybe my findings get published there. The lower the tier of publication, the lower the readership and the lower the scientific validity. It's sad but true. The chances of my findings being an important part of reshaping treatment of the cancer I was studying approach zero very quickly. I end up renouncing the scientific community, hang up my lab coat, and go work at Jiffy Lube for the rest of my life.

My point is that publication of materials is *very much* a political process. You have to finesse the right egos, have the right contacts, etc. Joe Schmoe working out of his basement who happens to find the most brilliant, revolutionary finding in the history of medical research will never have that study published in a top-class medical journal. Sorry Joe, should have had your brilliant discovery while working for a well-known medical research center.

And *IF* your findings get published, and *IF* those findings lead to a change in the treatment of a medical disease, and *IF* you don't happen to work for a pharmaceutical company who can rush through drug treatment approval processes run by the FDA, your revolutionary treatment will become standard practice between 10-20 years from now. Of course, old-school physicians will probably still use the old methods, and insurance companies won't reimburse physicians who use the new method. But at least you've made an impact in medical practice!

(Yes, I am quite bitter about this whole process. I have so much to say about this that confining myself to this post has been difficult. Sigh. I don't mean to disparage the medical research institution, but my experience in it has only made me aware of how inefficient and ridiculously slow it is to respond to the ever-changing world of disease and illness.)

Davian93
01-03-2012, 01:11 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

GonzoTheGreat
01-03-2012, 01:15 PM
The phrase that most laypeople use (and really infuriates me, BTW) is "correlation is not causation". Yep, way to throw around a trite and overused phrase that most people don't really understand.
Nitpick: what you say is inaccurate. A more accurate formulation would be: a trite and overused phrase that most people really don't understand.

Zombie Sammael
01-03-2012, 01:32 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395979_10151103540725360_727355359_22115772_504612 929_n.jpg

...but then I took an arrow to the knee.

fdsaf3
01-03-2012, 02:54 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

:D:D:D:D:D

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-04-2012, 02:25 PM
the guy who sits next to me said this today to his underling in all seriousness...almost tsking her for something she said. I immediately printed the cartoon and tossed it over the wall.

I love you guys.