Speculation on the Ages

[M_2K]

In an Age known as the Third Age by some....

Every book starts the same way. We know that there are seven Ages, and that this one is the Third Age, but there are so many unanswered questions.

1. How long is an 'Age' and are they all the same length?

2. How far along the wheel can be remembered? If WoT has some of our myths and we have some of theirs, is our 'Age' as far away from the third as we are from it?

3. Why are the Ages numbered so? What happens at the start of the first and the end of the seventh?

4. A list of known Ages:

FIRST AGE - No channelers (see below)

SECOND AGE - Jordan said that the discovery of channeling marked the beginning of the Age before this one. The question is: was this the beginning of the Age of Legends, or was the Age of Legends still part of the Third Age.

Also the Age when the Horn of Valere was made.

THIRD AGE - At least the last three thousand years from the Breaking until the present day. I might be inclined to make the Second Age the Age of legends - which brings the debate to when channeling was discovered in relation to the age of legends.

FOURTH AGE - We suspect that the Fourth Age starts when the series ends (or when Elayne has her twins). Calian and Shiva are the twins that are rumoured to mark the end of one Age and the beginning of another. I would say it is likely that they marked the start of the second Age as the first two channelers.

Tar Valon becomes Great Arvalon? Does the White Tower still exist?

FIFTH AGE?

SIXTH AGE?

SEVENTH AGE - Could this be our 'Age'

Any thoughts?

[irerancincpkc]

1. No, they vary in how long they last.

2. I believe they can be remembered as long as people can tell the stories. As it says at the beginning of each book, everything eventually fades.

3. There are no beginnings or endings to the turning, so are the numbers really all that important? I'm not sure... I need a reread. :D

I know people have thought about the seventh age being us, the Technology Age, or something like that...

[Terez]

I'd say it's more likely that we're the Fifth Age. We destroy ourselves with technology and evolution starts all over again, which means that the Sixth Age takes millions of years. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

1. The Ages do not have the same length. The Second Age lasted a lot longer than the Third has, so far, and it does not seem as though the Third will make up for it.

2. How far things can be remembered probably depends on the Age. There seem to be hardly any First Age memories around in the Third Age, but I suspect that in the Fourth Age there will be at least some knowledge of the Second Age left. That is strongly suggested by the fact that Rand is going to be remembered, and he links those two Ages.

3. The numbering is probably based on Tolkien's numbering system. If anyone has a better explanation, then I haven't seen that.

4. The Age of Legends is indeed the Second Age. As far as I remember, RJ has said that the Horn of Valere was not made in Age, that it is older than that.

[M_2K]

..if the sixth age was millions of years, how did we manage to pass legends onto the Third Age?

In my view, you have to take evolution out of it. I know there is a 'dinosaur' in Tanchico, but couldn't this equally be some form of Seanchan exotic or something from a portal world?

Remember that jordan has said that, in this world, the sun doesn't go supernova. Time is cyclical here. It is fantasy, after all. I just think that Jordan probably knew what the function or beginning/ending of all the Ages was.

[M_2K]

I haven't heard a better explanation either. :)

[Terez]

..if the sixth age was millions of years, how did we manage to pass legends onto the Third Age?
Hmm, good point. I guess RJ didn't think it through all that well, did he? :D

[Crispin's Crispian]

I almost think it doesn't matter what we call them. The story takes place in what is called the Third Age by some...but just some. Where you start the numbering is arbitrary. I think it's more likely the Ages are differentiated by their events, rather than their numbering.

[Weird Harold]

In an Age known as the Third Age by some....

Every book starts the same way. We know that there are seven Ages, and that this one is the Third Age, but there are so many unanswered questions.

The "Storyteller's cant" at the beginning of each book doesn't say there are seven ages, that comes from other sources in the books. There is a clue as to why it is "Called theThird Age by some" -- every age takes a turn as the Third Age, "Called the Present Age by others."

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

IOW, the Numerical Age designations are relative numbers and the present is always the "Third Age;" the previous Age is always the "Age of Legends" or "Second Age;" the age before that is always the "Age of Myths" or "First Age."

In the other direction, the "Fourth" is always "The New Age" or "Coming Age" depending on which side of the divider you're on. I don't know that there are clear definitions of the fifth and sixth but the "Age of Wonders" and the "Age of Miracles" could fit -- The ages of "We'll eventually be able to..." and "who knows where technology can take us..."

The Seventh Age is the "Mists of Time," Where even Myths are forgotten except for "Dreams of past or future Glory."


1. How long is an 'Age' and are they all the same length?

How Long are History, Prehistory and Paleo-history?

How long were the Stoneage, Bronze AGe, Iron Age, and Industrial Age?

Even better defined Ages, like Zodiacal Ages (eg the Age of Aquarius,) are subject to dispute about when they change and how long they last.

2. How far along the wheel can be remembered? If WoT has some of our myths and we have some of theirs, is our 'Age' as far away from the third as we are from it?

In another thread, we've been discussing the fact that Birgitte remembers lives from multiple Turnings of the Wheel -- and the other Heroes of the Horn hint at correspondingly long memories while waiting in T'A'R -- so the Archetypal mtths and legends remain accessible to dreamers -- whether simple lucid dreamers of our own world or dreamwalkers of the WOT.

3. Why are the Ages numbered so? What happens at the start of the first and the end of the seventh?

See above.

What happens at the end of the Seventh and beginning of the First is the same thing that marks the change of any Age -- a World Changing Event or Discovery that may or may not be noted as world-changing at the time. IN the Real World, Historians determine what event or discovery changed the world enough to begin a "New Age" but there is seldom complete agreement among them so there are overlapping "Ages" at any given time.

In the WOT, the Ages are determined by "Events" events of Cosmological signifigance -- but was the "Event" that began the Third Age the drilling of the Bore to release Evil into the World or the Strike at Shayol Gul that Sealed the Bore, or the Tainting of Saidin, or the Breaking of the World the Taint caused, or the Death of the last Male Aes Sedai arbitarily assigned as the end of the Breaking?

Or is the whole War of Power/Breaking period an "interegnum between ages?"

[M_2K]

The "Storyteller's cant" at the beginning of each book doesn't say there are seven ages, that comes from other sources in the books. There is a clue as to why it is "Called theThird Age by some" -- every age takes a turn as the Third Age, "Called the Present Age by others."


well, I didn't say that it did mention there were seven ages at the start of every book. ;) Simply that this was the Third Age (of Seven). The Seven Ages comes from the Guide.

IOW, the Numerical Age designations are relative numbers and the present is always the "Third Age;" the previous Age is always the "Age of Legends" or "Second Age;" the age before that is always the "Age of Myths" or "First Age."

Hmmm, that is interesting. I dunno, I don't really see why not, but I don't seem convinced. Firstly, how does one define 'Myth' and 'Legend' and then define a time period to those? It is mostly chance what is remembered. Besides which, that definition is looking from the outside of the wheel in. But, then again, who in the wheel knows of the Seven Ages? Maybe it is imparted ancient wisdom?

In the other direction, the "Fourth" is always "The New Age" or "Coming Age" depending on which side of the divider you're on. I don't know that there are clear definitions of the fifth and sixth but the "Age of Wonders" and the "Age of Miracles" could fit -- The ages of "We'll eventually be able to..." and "who knows where technology can take us..."

The Seventh Age is the "Mists of Time," Where even Myths are forgotten except for "Dreams of past or future Glory."




How Long are History, Prehistory and Paleo-history?

How long were the Stoneage, Bronze AGe, Iron Age, and Industrial Age?

Even better defined Ages, like Zodiacal Ages (eg the Age of Aquarius,) are subject to dispute about when they change and how long they last.



But that really isn't the same thing as the Ages in WoT. They are marked by the rebirth of Calian and Shiva, the heralds of Ages. Jordan has also stated a few times that the changing of Ages is precluded by old things coming again and other such portents. In WoT, these 'new things' are all very recent - within the last 50 years at the most. That is a pretty sharp definition when compared to the millennia it takes for an Age to pass.

In another thread, we've been discussing the fact that Birgitte remembers lives from multiple Turnings of the Wheel -- and the other Heroes of the Horn hint at correspondingly long memories while waiting in T'A'R -- so the Archetypal mtths and legends remain accessible to dreamers -- whether simple lucid dreamers of our own world or dreamwalkers of the WOT.


Yes, Hawkwing seems to remember facing the Dragon and siding with him multiple times but, interestingly, the Dragon Soul cannot have been reborn in the current Age before. I'm sure that has been covered in the other thread.

And, of course, the Heroes exist whether the Horn exists in that Age or not, because they are bound by the Pattern. The Horn, IMO , simply summons them. I really like the idea of using Dreamers to impart knowledge of the Seven Ages to people who would otherwise have know knowledge of it.


What happens at the end of the Seventh and beginning of the First is the same thing that marks the change of any Age -- a World Changing Event or Discovery that may or may not be noted as world-changing at the time. IN the Real World, Historians determine what event or discovery changed the world enough to begin a "New Age" but there is seldom complete agreement among them so there are overlapping "Ages" at any given time.



In the WOT, the Ages are determined by "Events" events of Cosmological signifigance -- but was the "Event" that began the Third Age the drilling of the Bore to release Evil into the World or the Strike at Shayol Gul that Sealed the Bore, or the Tainting of Saidin, or the Breaking of the World the Taint caused, or the Death of the last Male Aes Sedai arbitarily assigned as the end of the Breaking?

Or is the whole War of Power/Breaking period an "interegnum between ages?"


But remember Calian and Shiva! Also, as I said above, the Ages are marked by times of change. I would classify this as the Collapse (though the drilling was the start of the collapse - the beginning of the end) with the end of the Age being the Tainting of Saidin accompanied by the birth of the two heroes.

[GonzoTheGreat]

IOW, the Numerical Age designations are relative numbers and the present is always the "Third Age;" the previous Age is always the "Age of Legends" or "Second Age;" the age before that is always the "Age of Myths" or "First Age."

In the other direction, the "Fourth" is always "The New Age" or "Coming Age" depending on which side of the divider you're on.
You seem to be saying that no matter which Age they're in, the locals will call it the Third Age. That is not correct, according to the books:
TSR, Epilogue

And when the blood was sprinkled on ground where nothing could grow, the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.

from The Wheel of Time by Sulamein so Bhagad, Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun, the Fourth Age

[Sodas]

I have always thought of the Ages are particular points in the telling of the overall story. This is how I see it...

1st Age : The Post-Modern Age

It has already been quoted in this thread, but the beginning of the AOL started w/ people learning to channel. Combine that with finding the Mercedez-Benz symbol amongst the items has always lead me to believe that our Age had only recently occured. It makes sense to me that the Age of Legends is what happened when the people of this Age learned to channel. One more note, I think that the people will be generally united, and it's evolution into the Age of Peace will lead to one super-nation.

2nd Age : The Age of Peace

This is considered by Jordan a boring Age. The Rods of Dominion were described by Jordan as Governers. That is why I believe this was one unified nation. I believe the transition into this Age lead to the good channelers, Aes Sedai, to become ruler of that super-nation. Their rule was relatively good, with continued advancement across the board. Until, at the pinnacle of their civilization, they created the Bore.

3rd Age : The Dark Age

Obviously, this is covered in the books. There is major tumult and chaos over the course of the Age, with the taint a major factor in the distrust of the male channelers. Without both sides of the OP, the civilization is marked by War, while the Shadow waits.

4th Age : Age of Dreams and Battles

With the return of Wolfbrothers, and with the mentions of future battles, it could be an Age of War between nations and the Shadow once again. It's a question of how successful Rand really is in sealing the Bore. My guess is that it might take an Age just to rid the world of the Blight. And that could mean more Slayer types just from trying. But overall, this is a good Age. There should be a common enemy to fight, and the Light will have the advantage. I think this Age ends when the Dark's remnants are defeated, the Trollocs/Myrddraal dead, and the Blight gone.

5th Age : Pre-civilization Age

An Age that starts out positively, but ends up with the Tower of Babel. This is will begin splitting the nations and cultures apart.

6th Age : Historical or biblical Age

I consider this the Biblical Ages. I have always felt, from the day I started reading WoT, that the glow from Saidin is ment could be interpretated by uneducated eye to be the work of an Angel. I feel this Age is where Channeling will eventually be lost to make way for the rise of civilizations.

7th Age : Modern Age

This is the Age I think we belong to. This probably starts with the birth of religions and so on. This is also the era of industrialization and globalization, but not one unified nation. I feel this era will end with a fight between nations, ending with one unified super-nation. This leads to the creation of one language, to be used by everyone.


Remember, this is all just a guess. But that was what was asked, right?

[Weird Harold]

You seem to be saying that no matter which Age they're in, the locals will call it the Third Age. That is not correct, according to the books:

That citation is much like a Hippy diary dated "Age of Aquarius Year Ten" -- it's a designation that will change over the course of the Age so that the "Fourth Age" or "New Age" will Morph into general usage of "The Present" or "The Current Age" so that somewhere near the middle of an age, the consensus will be "this is the Third Age"

The point is that most people don't know or care what the age they live in is designated but the Age just past is Always a "Golden Age" and the Age just ahead is going to be better than this one.

[Weird Harold]

Hmmm, that is interesting. I dunno, I don't really see why not, but I don't seem convinced. Firstly, how does one define 'Myth' and 'Legend' and then define a time period to those? It is mostly chance what is remembered.

Not really chance -- good stories get remembered, boring stories get forgotten.

Myths and Legends are generally diffrentiated by the amount of dovumentable evidence to support them. If there's enough evidence to indicate a grain of Truth it's a legend, if it's just an old -- usually improbable -- story it's a Myth.

Besides which, that definition is looking from the outside of the wheel in. But, then again, who in the wheel knows of the Seven Ages? Maybe it is imparted ancient wisdom?

The Heroes of the Horn know and remember whole Turnings of the Ages so the "correct" information is available if difficult to obtain or document.

But that really isn't the same thing as the Ages in WoT. They are marked by the rebirth of Calian and Shiva, the heralds of Ages.

True, the Ages in the WOT are changed instantaneously by cosmic forces -- the Pattern spins out Calian and Shivan (Shiva without the 'N' is the Hindu God the name was borrowed from) and the instant of their birth/conception/ majority/rise to fame is the moment recognised as the changing of the Ages -- whether they're born at the changing of the ages or a decade later, they're the public announcment by the Wheel that a New Age has arrived.

But...

Calian and Shivan aren't the only indicator(s) of the changing of the Ages, nor are they the "event" that marks the actual change-over. Tarmon Gai'don is that "event" for this age, but how many people will recognise T'G when it finally comes? Battles come in all sizes and don't always involve armies or even weapons, so what kind of Battle is the "last battle?"

And, of course, the Heroes exist whether the Horn exists in that Age or not, because they are bound by the Pattern. The Horn, IMO , simply summons them. I really like the idea of using Dreamers to impart knowledge of the Seven Ages to people who would otherwise have know knowledge of it.

How many times in how many religions does a pronoucement of God's Will begin with "God spoke to me in a dream..."

It is the logical mechanism and the only place/people who know the whole story are known to exist.

[Realnow]

Sorry to seem foolish, but do we know for a fact that our world is intended to be the same as the WoT one?

Like Middle Earth I suppose?

And personally I would contend that the Horn is eternal. I would reason that since the Heroes are omni-present throughout the Ages. It seems that since the Heroes have always been around and have seen infinite turnings of the Wheel that they must have been in existence since Creation.

I suppose that we don't know how those souls became bound to the Horn, but my best guess is that they always have been; and that the Horn must be the work of the Creator. That or perhaps, every 7th age the Horn is lost or destroyed and every 1st age it is remade, with the souls waiting in limbo for this. But that seems rather disjointed to me, as meta-physically what is keeping those souls from rejoining the pattern?

[Ozymandias]

Sorry to seem foolish, but do we know for a fact that our world is intended to be the same as the WoT one?

Like Middle Earth I suppose?


First off, we know not all ages are the same length, just as we know there have been innumerable Ages. Also, we don't know that our world is supposed to reflect the world of WoT; just the same as LotR its only a suggestion or a hint, there are too many obvious discrepancies (such as geography) to make it obvious we're talking about the same place.

That concept of continuity with our own world has always been, in my mind, a way of demonstrating how the world (the fantasy world) evolves and matures from what it was. Obviously, we view our own world as the pinnacle of human achievement to date, so the world should evolve towards the present, in the mind of the reader. We associate a great deal more with the rudimentary trains we see in WoT than the Nym, or some other fabulous construct of the Power. Lord of the Rings functions the same way... Man gradually becomes more alike to us, as his rivals like Hobbits or Elves disappear or hide. This is always contrasted with the in-story idea that the world is in decline as it becomes more and more like our own. That aspect has always been particularly fascinating, to me.

And personally I would contend that the Horn is eternal. I would reason that since the Heroes are omni-present throughout the Ages. It seems that since the Heroes have always been around and have seen infinite turnings of the Wheel that they must have been in existence since Creation.

I suppose that we don't know how those souls became bound to the Horn, but my best guess is that they always have been; and that the Horn must be the work of the Creator. That or perhaps, every 7th age the Horn is lost or destroyed and every 1st age it is remade, with the souls waiting in limbo for this. But that seems rather disjointed to me, as meta-physically what is keeping those souls from rejoining the pattern?

The Horn isn't necessarily eternal, and I think it may be misleading to term Heroes as bound to the Horn. The Horn does not create Heroes. Its only function exists as a conduit for Heroes to enter the world. So saying that a Hero is "bound to the Horn" does not mean the Horn is eternal. Think of it as a oath of loyalty. If a King commands his nobles to come to him, they're bound to him and bound to come. That doesn't mean that the nobles have no existence outside that oath. The Horn is eternal in the sense that its function represents a timeless nature of the Wheel that persists through its turnings; the Horn as an object is not necessarily eternal.

The idea that the destruction of the Horn releases the souls to rejoin the Pattern is ignoring the fact that the Pattern has set those souls aside; they're already a part of the Pattern, they've just been kept around. And we know Heroes haven't been bound forever; new Heroes CAN join, which implies that to be a Hero does not mean your an eternal part of the Wheel.

Basically, I think you've totally misinterpreted the phrase "bound to the Horn". The Horn is an object (is the Horn a ter'angreal, is another interesting question, and if not, how does it function) like any other, but with a specific purpose. It isn't some cosmic thing that exists and persists throughout Time. Its destruction or loss does not mean Heroes cannot enter the world, or that they cease to exists when the Horn does; it just means that there is no way of calling them forth and a given time and place; the Horn circumvents the Pattern's weaving, in the sense that you can call them forth before their appointed time of rebirth.

[Marie Curie 7]

Remember that jordan has said that, in this world, the sun doesn't go supernova. Time is cyclical here. It is fantasy, after all. I just think that Jordan probably knew what the function or beginning/ending of all the Ages was.

Actually, to be specific, RJ indicated that the sun wouldn't go nova.

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?
Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop..that it is really quite immense.

Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?
Jordan: In this universe, no.

(Our sun doesn't have enough mass to go supernova. It will become a red giant, which would still probably be very bad for life on earth. So what RJ likely meant, and you, too, I imagine, was that in the WoT universe our sun isn't going to do any of these sorts of bad things.) :)

First off, we know not all ages are the same length, just as we know there have been innumerable Ages. Also, we don't know that our world is supposed to reflect the world of WoT; just the same as LotR its only a suggestion or a hint, there are too many obvious discrepancies (such as geography) to make it obvious we're talking about the same place.

It's far more than just a suggestion that our world is supposed to be the WoT world in another Age. RJ mentioned this a number of times. For example:

Wotmania Quote Collection (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58)

Q: I was wondering if you could comment on some of the clues that Randland (as we call it) seems to be written as a future Earth.
RJ: Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future and in our past, depending on which way you look.


Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

Q: Is the world of the books another world?
RJ: The intention is that the world of the books is our world at a different time. The concept is that time is a wheel, so if you go far enough into our future or into our past, you come to the time in the books. Because of that, they have legends that originate in our time, and we have legends that originate in theirs.


America On-Line chat #1 1996

Scotty1489 would like to know: Is our earth a future or past turn of the Wheel?
RJ: Both. The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel.


I suppose that we don't know how those souls became bound to the Horn, but my best guess is that they always have been; and that the Horn must be the work of the Creator. That or perhaps, every 7th age the Horn is lost or destroyed and every 1st age it is remade, with the souls waiting in limbo for this. But that seems rather disjointed to me, as meta-physically what is keeping those souls from rejoining the pattern?

The Horn was made in an earlier Age than the Age of Legends. From RJ:

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

We also see from that some knowledge (of the Horn) was passed on from at least the First Age through the Age of Legends into the Third Age.

Also, the Horn was not directly the work of the Creator. Again, from RJ:

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren't gods.

[Ozymandias]

Marie - Despite what RJ says, I don't see how our world can be a past/future version of theirs. I mean, aside from the patently obvious differences of geography (which we know is mutable, I guess), the genetic factor (or it seems to be genetic) of a magical Power source, and the fact that WE retain no legends of their time, all goes to disprove that basic assumption.

I realize it sounds retarded to say "no, this fantasy world isn't ours", but if we work within the context of the series, we see that its probably impossible for Rand's world to be ours in a past/future time. Perhaps we exist as a Mirror World, or a World like that of the *Finns, neither Mirror nor Reality (as perceived in the text).

Even more telling may be the religious aspect. Though its been noted that there isn't really a formal religious structure in Randland, there is a totally pervasive and completely accepted dualist cultic belief in the Creator and the Dark One, which is also shown to have existed for at least the previous Age, and some structures within the books imply strongly, as does common sense, that this religious ALSO persisted in Ages prior to that. The fact that we have solid evidence for it being followed for two Ages, strong evidence for a third (the Fourth Age), and logically a fourth (the 1st Age), implys that this belief system is an eternal part of the social structure of Randland. No such structure exists in our world, nor has it ever on such a pervasive scale. The only similar religious or cultic structure that comes to mind is Zoroastrianism.

The point being, the resemblance to our world and our past or future is never anything more than superficial. No reader could ever possibly confuse our world with theirs if they thought about it for more than a few seconds. The world of Lord of the Rings has a MUCH more believable world-setting than WoT, which lends more credence to those books.

Perhaps you view our worlds as parallels existing in totally separate dimensions, much like T'A'R and Randland exist side by side. Two completely separate universes that touch on another on rare occasions. Hence, there is a small cultural and social exchange that is vaguely remembered eons later by a population in Randland that has been well schooled in the technological and magical prowess of their forebears.

Hmmm... lots of stuff to think about, there. I may add the Zoroastrian/dualist idea to a list of ones I'm exploring in my own head. Along with my study on parallels in Arthurian legend.

[Sodas]

Ozy,
What Jordan means by legends from their time wouldn't be things like actual books or literature. It's in names, like Graendal and Gholem, which are religious or cultural legends.

[Ozymandias]

Ozy,
What Jordan means by legends from their time wouldn't be things like actual books or literature. It's in names, like Graendal and Gholem, which are religious or cultural legends.

Firstly, Graendal IS books/literature.

Obviously these things wouldn't come through whole, but just fragments. My point is that the presence of a dualist religion which has invaded every single person, including those who aren't people, implies that WE would have knowledge of THEIR legends if we were looking at a continuous timeline. Or timecircle. Whatever.

It makes much more sense to view these universes as worlds that brush against each other every so often, permitting the infrequent and partial exchange of knowledge and ideas. Hence, the concept of a golem, or an artificially created without true form, exists in Randland despite the fact that the specific definition and application of such a creature is lost (the gholam of the stories could be viewed as a twisted interpretation of the golem legends).

Same with Graendal. The name for a gluttonous, evil monster exists in Randland, along with a basic understanding of what the word means, but there is no context for it. If the actual Graendal legend had survived, do you think our beautiful Chosen would have decided to pick the moniker of a hideously ugly, slimy monster as her new name in the Shadow? Doubtful. And if the name had survived as a cultural relic, some sort of context would have come down with it. And one of the defining characteristics of Graendal in our world is how hideously ugly he is. However, its not beyond imagination that a dreamer touching the world of Randland would only leave the impression of a glutton.

The fact is we have no memory of their world, and their memory of ours is so fragmented as to be completely unreliable as witness or evidence to the continuity of some of our cultural structures and icons.

[GonzoTheGreat]

That citation is much like a Hippy diary dated "Age of Aquarius Year Ten" -- it's a designation that will change over the course of the Age so that the "Fourth Age" or "New Age" will Morph into general usage of "The Present" or "The Current Age" so that somewhere near the middle of an age, the consensus will be "this is the Third Age"

The point is that most people don't know or care what the age they live in is designated but the Age just past is Always a "Golden Age" and the Age just ahead is going to be better than this one.
That contention would be very seriously strengthened if the people in the Age of Legends called their own Age the Third one. It would be very seriously weakened (shot down completely, not to put too fine a spin on it) if they called their Age the Second.

I can't remember, but are there any examples where the Forsaken comment on the numbering of the Ages?

[Terez]

By the way, I also agree that everything that is "known" in the world about its theology comes from contact with the Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod. Birgitte's conversation with Gaidal indicates that the precepts have been broken many times before.

Ozy, try not to worry too much about the stuff that doesn't make sense. RJ created WoT, and if he says it's intended to be a past or future earth, then it is, no matter how imperfectly you think he managed to convey it.

[Weird Harold]

That contention would be very seriously strengthened if the people in the Age of Legends called their own Age the Third one. It would be very seriously weakened (shot down completely, not to put too fine a spin on it) if they called their Age the Second.

I can't remember, but are there any examples where the Forsaken comment on the numbering of the Ages?

I can't think of any instance when any of the Forsaken -- or LTT refer to the AOL as anything named except possibly the 'War of Power.'

Likewise, I can't think of any case where any of the characters refer to the present as the Third Age either.

The designations of the Ages is strictly a thing of Historians and Scholars (and in our world, Astronomers, Astrologers, and other Stargazers.) The general populace worry more about the 'end of the world' and a "new Breaking' than they do about what the Ages are named.

[Terez]

Likewise, I can't think of any case where any of the characters refer to the present as the Third Age either. Not to deny your point about scholars, but there's this:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 18 - A Taste of Solitude

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

PS - I thought after I posted to search all the books for "third age" and "second age", and got nothing other than the first paragraph of each Chapter 1, and the various epigram-type things. And Fel, of course. :)

[M_2K]

I wouldn't have remembered that in a million year, or several Ages. ;)

Certainly makes things interesting. I would assume that Aes Sedai and many well educated people would also know this is the Third Age.

At least it answers who the 'some' are.

[Marie Curie 7]

Marie - Despite what RJ says, I don't see how our world can be a past/future version of theirs. I mean, aside from the patently obvious differences of geography (which we know is mutable, I guess), the genetic factor (or it seems to be genetic) of a magical Power source, and the fact that WE retain no legends of their time, all goes to disprove that basic assumption.

And my point was that it was RJ's stated intent that our world is both a future and a past world of Randland - whether or not you think RJ did a good job at making the connection is immaterial to that point.

Also, I disagree that we retain no legends from the Third Age of Randland. The way that RJ set this up is that Third Age of Randland got legends based on historical events that have happened during our time - these include, for example, the legends of Mosk and Merk, Lenn and Salya, and Anya the Wise Couselor. And RJ meant for historical events that occurred in Randland during the Third Age to appear as part of our legends - maybe as Arthur and the Sword in the Stone, for example.

Even more telling may be the religious aspect. Though its been noted that there isn't really a formal religious structure in Randland, there is a totally pervasive and completely accepted dualist cultic belief in the Creator and the Dark One, which is also shown to have existed for at least the previous Age, and some structures within the books imply strongly, as does common sense, that this religious ALSO persisted in Ages prior to that. The fact that we have solid evidence for it being followed for two Ages, strong evidence for a third (the Fourth Age), and logically a fourth (the 1st Age), implys that this belief system is an eternal part of the social structure of Randland. No such structure exists in our world, nor has it ever on such a pervasive scale. The only similar religious or cultic structure that comes to mind is Zoroastrianism.

Again, I disagree that the differences in religious practices between our current Age and the Third Age rule out that our world and Randland are the same. RJ speaks extensively in the Budapest interviews about why the religious structure (or lack of it) is what it is in Randland, and his reasons essentially hinge upon the existence of the One Power and channeling in the Third Age (and other Ages where channeling exists):

Q: Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?
RJ: No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...

Q [interrupts]: Oh, is that a spoiler?? No no!
RJ: No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief , a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.

Q: But the Creator does not interfere!
RJ: The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

Q: Of the unseen.
RJ: Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead - and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of and lay their hand on you. In the name of God be healed and your wounds are healed. Or, In the name of God rise up and walk and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks - I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.

So based upon RJ's reasoning, one could easily imagine how he set it up so that religions and religious worship and so on would experience significant growth during Ages in which there was no channeling of the One Power, like ours.

Hmmm... lots of stuff to think about, there. I may add the Zoroastrian/dualist idea to a list of ones I'm exploring in my own head. Along with my study on parallels in Arthurian legend.

Zoroastrianism and its relationship to WoT is discussed in the Wotmania FAQ (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=124), as is links to Arthurian legend.

[Ozymandias]

Ozy, try not to worry too much about the stuff that doesn't make sense. RJ created WoT, and if he says it's intended to be a past or future earth, then it is, no matter how imperfectly you think he managed to convey it.

My problem is that saying that he created this world and what he says, goes, creates an inherent paradox in his statement of intent.

He did NOT create the world, he is merely telling the story of a past Age. Thats his stated position (since he says WoT is merely another Age from our own). Therefore, he isn't an all knowing Creator and his word is law. So we can question it, and since it isn't at all certain that that world is our own, and could very well be a parallel world, we have to entertain that possibility.

[The Immortal One]

Even more telling may be the religious aspect. Though its been noted that there isn't really a formal religious structure in Randland, there is a totally pervasive and completely accepted dualist cultic belief in the Creator and the Dark One, which is also shown to have existed for at least the previous Age, and some structures within the books imply strongly, as does common sense, that this religious ALSO persisted in Ages prior to that. The fact that we have solid evidence for it being followed for two Ages, strong evidence for a third (the Fourth Age), and logically a fourth (the 1st Age), implys that this belief system is an eternal part of the social structure of Randland. No such structure exists in our world, nor has it ever on such a pervasive scale. The only similar religious or cultic structure that comes to mind is Zoroastrianism.

Are you saying that there are no dualistic religions like this today? If you are, I entirely disagree.

Most religions have a 'God' figure and a 'Devil' figure, like the Creator and the Dark One.

Especially in the more ancient religions; even though they are usually polytheistic where the 'High/Master/Overgod/Father of the Gods' (often represented by life and the sun) and the 'Devil/Demonic/Evil God' (often represented by darkness or flames) are surrounded by a pantheon of lesser gods and deities as well as other miscellaneous mystical servants.



And as for this:
The fact is we have no memory of their world, and their memory of ours is so fragmented as to be completely unreliable as witness or evidence to the continuity of some of our cultural structures and icons.
Nobody ever said there was direct proof - other than RJ's word that Randland is the same world as ours, but to say that there is no memory or indirect evidence is wrong (in my opinion); every other week somebody discovers some vague, obscure reference to our own myths and legends in WoT or some reference to todays world in a WoT story or legend. There are dozens of FAQs on the internet which show hundreds of these vague references.

And if a few seem incomplete, like a defining characteristic of the Graendal being ugly, are missing then that's simply another proof that thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of years can distort history into a fairy tale.

It wouldn't take much to assume that the years and Ages between WoT and our world would be enough to turn the vicious, gluttonous, evil Forsaken Graendal into the vicious, gluttonous, ugly, evil monster Graendal of myth.



Hence, the concept of a golem, or an artificially created without true form, exists in Randland despite the fact that the specific definition and application of such a creature is lost (the gholam of the stories could be viewed as a twisted interpretation of the golem legends).
And what are you talking about here? Are you thinking of Gollum from the Lord of the Rings? The more classical interpretation and it's meaning and definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem) is exactly like the Randland one - an artificially created being basically humanoid in shape which has no free will and must follow the will of it's master.


For those of you who can't be bothered to read my post it simply says that I believe that our world and the WoT world are meant to be one and the same - even though any proof we have from myths and legends is vague and often fragmentary.

[Realnow]

First off, we know not all ages are the same length, just as we know there have been innumerable Ages. Also, we don't know that our world is supposed to reflect the world of WoT; just the same as LotR its only a suggestion or a hint, there are too many obvious discrepancies (such as geography) to make it obvious we're talking about the same place.

That concept of continuity with our own world has always been, in my mind, a way of demonstrating how the world (the fantasy world) evolves and matures from what it was. Obviously, we view our own world as the pinnacle of human achievement to date, so the world should evolve towards the present, in the mind of the reader. We associate a great deal more with the rudimentary trains we see in WoT than the Nym, or some other fabulous construct of the Power. Lord of the Rings functions the same way... Man gradually becomes more alike to us, as his rivals like Hobbits or Elves disappear or hide. This is always contrasted with the in-story idea that the world is in decline as it becomes more and more like our own. That aspect has always been particularly fascinating, to me.

Well actually Tolkien had whole sets of world maps that showed the shifting of Middle Earth into the modern topography. They are in a few Tolkien reference books I have. So it really was more than a hint, and it was meant to be that in the 4th age, elves and magic began leaving the world; this leads to the Age of Men.

I suppose the general idea is that perhaps RJ was going for the same sort of angle? I've noticed many people theorize channeling could be ended this age, or next perhaps. (if this age, would fit nicely with LOTR, ^^)



The Horn isn't necessarily eternal, and I think it may be misleading to term Heroes as bound to the Horn. The Horn does not create Heroes. Its only function exists as a conduit for Heroes to enter the world. So saying that a Hero is "bound to the Horn" does not mean the Horn is eternal. Think of it as a oath of loyalty. If a King commands his nobles to come to him, they're bound to him and bound to come. That doesn't mean that the nobles have no existence outside that oath. The Horn is eternal in the sense that its function represents a timeless nature of the Wheel that persists through its turnings; the Horn as an object is not necessarily eternal.

I don't think that the Heroes really volunteered in any way though, so an oath doesn't really fit. Its more they were predestined (their souls) to always be prepared to be called upon to fix the Pattern.

The idea that the destruction of the Horn releases the souls to rejoin the Pattern is ignoring the fact that the Pattern has set those souls aside; they're already a part of the Pattern, they've just been kept around. And we know Heroes haven't been bound forever; new Heroes CAN join, which implies that to be a Hero does not mean your an eternal part of the Wheel.

I'm sorry but can you help me remember when new heroes join? Slipped my mind, and that would really change things. Has any hero become unbound though? (other than dying in TAR)

Basically, I think you've totally misinterpreted the phrase "bound to the Horn". The Horn is an object (is the Horn a ter'angreal, is another interesting question, and if not, how does it function) like any other, but with a specific purpose. It isn't some cosmic thing that exists and persists throughout Time. Its destruction or loss does not mean Heroes cannot enter the world, or that they cease to exists when the Horn does; it just means that there is no way of calling them forth and a given time and place; the Horn circumvents the Pattern's weaving, in the sense that you can call them forth before their appointed time of rebirth.

You took me way to literally with that "bound to the Horn" phrase; its not a focal point of what I'm saying anyway. I would contend that the figurative Horn, or simply the Heroes themselves are a "cosmic thing" that persists. This is clear from conversations with Birgitte. She has seen uncountable Turnings of the wheel.

The nature of the Wheel leads me to believe also that the Heroes have always been bound to the Pattern (if thats better than Horn). I suppose the actual Horn may be remade every 1st age (thats what you assume, correct?).

But what if by chance it wasn't one Turning? And its legend was lost, would the Heroes be trapped out of the world forever? Thats why I think its reasonable to say that the Horn itself could be the original Horn, and persists through Breakings and Turnings.

[Weird Harold]

I suppose the actual Horn may be remade every 1st age (thats what you assume, correct?).

But what if by chance it wasn't one Turning? And its legend was lost, would the Heroes be trapped out of the world forever? Thats why I think its reasonable to say that the Horn itself could be the original Horn, and persists through Breakings and Turnings.

I have proposed the idea that nobody made the Horn of Valere, it is a tangible piece of the Pattern itself that is extruded in the form whatever current legend requires it to have. IIRC, RJ did say that it wasn't always a "horn" but could be almost any musical instrument as the Age required.

Perhaps the Horn is a product of T'A'R that is cast out into the real world when there is a Need for it?

[Terez]

I have proposed the idea that nobody made the Horn of Valere, it is a tangible piece of the Pattern itself that is extruded in the form whatever current legend requires it to have. IIRC, RJ did say that it wasn't always a "horn" but could be almost any musical instrument as the Age required. Here's what RJ did say about it:

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME" (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26)

For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren’t gods.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004 (http://www.wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=152)

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.
I think that the extrapolation that it could have been another instrument in other Ages or other Turnings was a deduction on the part of the fans, and never confirmed by RJ.

The first comment, from the blog, I find interesting because it seems to imply that the makers of the Horn were not mere mortals. Not gods, but the "you might say" bit implies that it's not so simple. Perhaps RJ was implying that the Heroes made the Horn. In any case, he did make it clear that the Horn was made by someone.

The second bit says that the Horn was an artifact from "an earlier Age", not from any particular Age. So, there's nothing to indicate that the Horn was made in the First Age. (The Portal Stones were said to have been made in that Age, but not the Horn.) It could have been made several Turnings ago, for all we know.

[Realnow]

I have proposed the idea that nobody made the Horn of Valere, it is a tangible piece of the Pattern itself that is extruded in the form whatever current legend requires it to have. IIRC, RJ did say that it wasn't always a "horn" but could be almost any musical instrument as the Age required.

Perhaps the Horn is a product of T'A'R that is cast out into the real world when there is a Need for it?

Yes this is the theory I'd have to go with. I hadn't heard that RJ said that, but it cements my point. Its a figurative Horn that is omnipresent throughout every Turning; thats my take as well.

[Weird Harold]

I think that the extrapolation that it could have been another instrument in other Ages or other Turnings was a deduction on the part of the fans, and never confirmed by RJ.

I'm almost sure that there is another RJ comment about the HoV out there along the lines of there being a different "Dragon Soul" if the Wheel/Pattern requires a Female Dragon.

Things like the Horn, the Dragon Banner, Callandor, Mat's Ashendarai and other real-world mythical allusions are likel essential elements that the Wheel/Pattern will provide at the appropriate time and protect/preserve as necessary to make them available at the time of Need.

Whether they're recreated with every turning or just returned to the "strange bint in a lake" that gave them to the Hero in the first place, doesn't really matter.

The Horn is, IMHO, likely returned to the Heroes for safe keeping in T'A'R or recreated in T'A'R as it is needed so that it wither turly eternal or totally ephemeral and which it is doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

[Terez]

I'm almost sure that there is another RJ comment about the HoV out there along the lines of there being a different "Dragon Soul" if the Wheel/Pattern requires a Female Dragon. Nope. If there is, then whoever finds it can have some rep, but I'm pretty sure I got everything when I made the Interview Database (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372). :D

[Sodas]

Firstly, Graendal IS books/literature.

Obviously these things wouldn't come through whole, but just fragments. My point is that the presence of a dualist religion which has invaded every single person, including those who aren't people, implies that WE would have knowledge of THEIR legends if we were looking at a continuous timeline. Or timecircle. Whatever.
I don't understand why this is implied to be neccesarily so far back. The whole premise by Jordan is that "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

There is no other implication, their memories should be myth to us. And our memories should be myth to them.

It makes much more sense to view these universes as worlds that brush against each other every so often, permitting the infrequent and partial exchange of knowledge and ideas. Hence, the concept of a golem, or an artificially created without true form, exists in Randland despite the fact that the specific definition and application of such a creature is lost (the gholam of the stories could be viewed as a twisted interpretation of the golem legends).
But that just isn't the case. Jordan defined his universe, and I think you need to respect that. I think if you have heard him talk about this in person, you might not think this even remotely possible.
Same with Graendal. The name for a gluttonous, evil monster exists in Randland, along with a basic understanding of what the word means, but there is no context for it. If the actual Graendal legend had survived, do you think our beautiful Chosen would have decided to pick the moniker of a hideously ugly, slimy monster as her new name in the Shadow? Doubtful.
Memory fades. I think that is the biggest point your missing here.

And if the name had survived as a cultural relic, some sort of context would have come down with it. And one of the defining characteristics of Graendal in our world is how hideously ugly he is. However, its not beyond imagination that a dreamer touching the world of Randland would only leave the impression of a glutton.
It's actually a proven reaction for humans to demonize their enemies. That is why most propaganda is designed to do just that, definning the opponent as ugly or repulsive. It's easy to see how the names of the Forsaken are commonly also considered demons.
The fact is we have no memory of their world, and their memory of ours is so fragmented as to be completely unreliable as witness or evidence to the continuity of some of our cultural structures and icons.
But we have the myth's of their world. That is what Jordan was saying. And they have myth's of ours.

[M_2K]

Here's what RJ did say about it:

The first comment, from the blog, I find interesting because it seems to imply that the makers of the Horn were not mere mortals. Not gods, but the "you might say" bit implies that it's not so simple. Perhaps RJ was implying that the Heroes made the Horn. In any case, he did make it clear that the Horn was made by someone.

The second bit says that the Horn was an artifact from "an earlier Age", not from any particular Age. So, there's nothing to indicate that the Horn was made in the First Age. (The Portal Stones were said to have been made in that Age, but not the Horn.)[/FONT][/SIZE] It could have been made several Turnings ago, for all we know.

In my view, the Heroes are eternal, but the Horn is not. If one of the Heroes was also the person fated to forge the Horn in one of his/her incarnations, that would make perfect sense as a mechanism to bring it back.

Also interesting about 'an earlier Age', because I thought it had specifically mentioned it as the First Age. Apparently not! :)

Just as an aside, when were the Portal Stones made?

[Terez]

In my view, the Heroes are eternal, but the Horn is not. If one of the Heroes was also the person fated to forge the Horn in one of his/her incarnations, that would make perfect sense as a mechanism to bring it back. Well, it would make more sense to me if it was made by a "dead" Hero rather than an incarnate one - that would fit better, in my opinion, with RJ's implication that it was not made by mere mortals.

Also interesting about 'an earlier Age', because I thought it had specifically mentioned it as the First Age. Apparently not! :)

Just as an aside, when were the Portal Stones made? There is something more specific in the books, which I can't find, but here's a bit from the BWB:

TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 3 - The Age of Legends

Ruins of portal stones have been discovered in various parts of the world. Gray stone cylinders approximately three spans tall and a full pace thick, these stones are covered with hundreds of deeply incised diagrams and markings. The portal stones are said to be gateways to alternative realities within the Pattern. The knowledge of their use has been lost, but it is believed that Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends used them freely. Indications are that they may predate the Age of Legends.
I'm pretty sure that there's a bit in the books that says they're from the Age before the Age of Legends. Maybe someone else can find it.

EDIT: found it:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 13 - From Stone to Stone

"Rand, that fragment said the Stones came from an older Age than the Age of Legends, and even the Aes Sedai then did not understand them, though they used them, some of the truly powerful did. They used them with the One Power, Rand. How did you think to use this Stone to take us back? Or any other Stone we find?"

For a moment Rand could only stare at the Ogier, thinking faster than he ever had in his life. "If they are older than the Age of Legends, maybe the people who built them didn't use the Power. There must be another way. The Darkfriends got here, and they certainly couldn't use the Power. Whatever this other way is, I will find it out. I will get us back, Loial." He looked at the tall stone column with its odd markings, and felt a prickle of fear. Light, if only I don't have to use the Power to do it. "I will, Loial, I promise. One way or another."

[The Immortal One]

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 13 - From Stone to Stone

"Rand, that fragment said the Stones came from an older Age than the Age of Legends, and even the Aes Sedai then did not understand them, though they used them, some of the truly powerful did. They used them with the One Power, Rand. How did you think to use this Stone to take us back? Or any other Stone we find?"

For a moment Rand could only stare at the Ogier, thinking faster than he ever had in his life. "If they are older than the Age of Legends, maybe the people who built them didn't use the Power. There must be another way. The Darkfriends got here, and they certainly couldn't use the Power. Whatever this other way is, I will find it out. I will get us back, Loial." He looked at the tall stone column with its odd markings, and felt a prickle of fear. Light, if only I don't have to use the Power to do it. "I will, Loial, I promise. One way or another."

Doesn't necessarily mean the First Age - only that they were there before the Second Age.



Besides didn't I read somewhere that the One Power was discovered (by Tamyrlin) at the beginning of the Age of Legends? That the discovery of the One Power was such a huge *EVENT* that the Wheel turned and a new Age began?

And if the Stones were meant to be used by the Power (or built with the Power - after all they are still in fairly good shape for being small stone columns sitting out in the weather for more than four thousand years. And of course the way they can't be moved suggests the involvement of the Power in some way).

Perhaps they came from the previous Fourth or Fifth Age.

[Realnow]

Maybe that discovery of the OP you speak of was actually a rediscovery, and the OP was around in say the 6th age, lost in the 7th, and refound at the end of the 1st. We could never fathom all the different possibilities though.

[The Immortal One]

Maybe that discovery of the OP you speak of was actually a rediscovery, and the OP was around in say the 6th age, lost in the 7th, and refound at the end of the 1st. We could never fathom all the different possibilities though.

It's almost obvious that the One Power has been known in EVERY turning of the Wheel (how else could each Dragon seal up the Dark One), though what Age it was 'lost' in is unknown.

My point was that it's almost impossible for the Portal Stones to have been created in the First Age and, since we have written evidence that they are from an Age before the Age of Legends, they must be from the last Seventh Age or even older.


How long was the Age of Legends? I got the impression that they had had thousands of years of peace and civilisation (long enough to forget even the idea of war), so even if the First Age was only a few years long the Portal Stones are at least 10,000 years old - rather incredible when you think about the fact that the Stonehenge or the pyramids of Egypt are only about 5,000 or 6,000.


(And that's not even considering the implications of the seven Ajah-coloured tiers around the Stones)

[Weird Harold]

It's almost obvious that the One Power has been known in EVERY turning of the Wheel (how else could each Dragon seal up the Dark One), though what Age it was 'lost' in is unknown.


Thus all of the theories about how Rand is going to somehow make the OP inaccesible so that an "Age of Technology" can evolve from his academies and flourish.

I think the OP is just "further away" during some ages because the majority of it is tied up in some Great Working and is only accessible in small puddles and streams our myths and legends of magic call "Power Nodes" and "Ley Lines"

Others have dubbed the idea the Tidal Theory of OP loss or OP Ice AGe, because it starts with the idea that Steddings are metaphysical "islands" rising above the "sea-level" of the True Source.

It continues with the proposition that in orde rto Heal the Bore so that it is completely undetectable, Rand is going to create a weave that continues to draw the OP and will grow like the galciers of an Ice Age to lower the Sea level of the True Source so that Steddings are revealed as mountaintops and the metaphysical topography becomes like seabed exposed by lowered sea levels during an Ice Age.

Access the the OP will be lost through the Fourth Age and reduced to Legend and then Myth through the fifth and sixth and virtually forgotten and/or dismissed as superstition in the Seventh.

Sometime in the Seventh Age or early in the First age, the weave binding the OP begins to fail and the sea-level begins to rise until at the end of the First Age, it's high enough for a very strong Sparker to rediscover.

(And that's not even considering the implications of the seven Ajah-coloured tiers around the Stones)

I've proposed the idea that it is "Portal Stone Tier Colored Ajahs" rather than the reverse.

It doesn't say where the various factions came together to form the modern Aes Sedai, but a portal stone's stadium-like construction would make it a logical choice to be designated neutral territory. It might be that the Ajahs took their colors from the tier they occupied around a portal stone while the "White Tower" got organised.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I doubt the Portal Stone theory for White Tower formation.
BWB, Chapter 9, Formation of the White Tower

“Sitting each for her ajah, if they still can be called so as they are, were Elisane Tishar, Mitsora Caal, Karella Fanway, Azille Narof, Saraline Amerano, Dumera Alman, Salindi Casolan, Catlynde Artein, Biranca Hasad, Mailaine Harvole, Nemaira Eldros, Lideine Rajan, and several others.
Twelve women, not to mention “several others,” doubtless representing groups too small to be significant, each sitting for her ajah! Not yet Ajah, but the “if they still can be called so as they are” seems particularly meaningful, indicating great changes in the view of ajah. Comparing the two definitions and what we know of Ajah today, it seems that the most likely change was from “temporary” to “permanent.” Other fragmentary documents found with the letter, which speak of various women threatening to walk out of the meetings, also strongly suggest that what occurred here was a meeting of independent groups. Later events strongly suggest that while the decision to build Tar Valon was an outcome of the conference, the true goal may well have been to unify these separate entities.

[Weird Harold]

I doubt the Portal Stone theory for White Tower formation.
There is no mention of Ajah Colors there.








Clearly, the original association of seven colors with "Ajahs" would have been a plural association because there were originally more than seven factions. The color associations would be for groups of factions that allied on particular issues. From your citation, it would seem that the colors became associated with single Ajahs around the same time as they transitioned from "ajahs" to "Ajahs" but it doesnt' mean that the colors were associated with general groupings of common purposes.

[The Immortal One]

I think the OP is just "further away" during some ages because the majority of it is tied up in some Great Working and is only accessible in small puddles and streams our myths and legends of magic call "Power Nodes" and "Ley Lines"

Interesting - I hadn't heard of this idea before.


Others have dubbed the idea the Tidal Theory of OP loss or OP Ice AGe, because it starts with the idea that Steddings are metaphysical "islands" rising above the "sea-level" of the True Source.

However this seems unlikely - for a start the Steddings cannot be reached in TAR either and that has very little to do with the power. It seems more likely to me that they are islands rising, not above the True Source, but into another world - the world through the Book of Translation, which is why the Ogier are less affected by the Longing there.

[Marie Curie 7]

Besides didn't I read somewhere that the One Power was discovered (by Tamyrlin) at the beginning of the Age of Legends? That the discovery of the One Power was such a huge *EVENT* that the Wheel turned and a new Age began?

Well, we know that the One Power was discovered at the end of the First Age or the beginning of the Age of Legends. And it was discovered through trial and error:

Tor Question of the Week

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)