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Zombie Sammael
12-17-2011, 04:46 PM
This is a theory I've been working on for a while, but I wanted to wait until I'd finished my re-read to post it. I do intend to submit it as a theory, but I wanted to try and get some discussion going on the WOT board as we appear to be in a super-lull atm. I expect that has a lot to do with the time of year that it is, but it would be nice to have something to argue about over Christmas, wouldn't it (other than if Dad's cheating at Monopoly, that is)? So without further ado, here goes:

As of chapter 22 of TGS, Rand al'Thor appears to be capable of channeling the True Power, a feat previously only performed to our knowledge by Ishamael/Moridin in the current age, and by around 30 channelers in the AOL. It stands to reason to think that among these 30 were the 12 other Forsaken we know of in the current age, but as of the current end of the series, other than Moridin the only other Forsaken to have access to the TP is Graendal , and even then only a sliver. We don't know if she's used it, but if you put the power of darkness on a mantle piece in act 2, it stands to reason it'll go off in act 3, so if she hasn't she probably will in AMOL.

Most of what we know about the True Power comes from a couple of chapters of ACOS, and the prologue to TPOD where Moridin uses it whilst playing Sha'rah. In fact, he uses it to almost crush the Fisher piece, which represents Rand, before setting it back on the board. Apart from this, he also uses it in the infamous balefire incident in Shadar Logoth during ACOS. That incident is partly the subject of this theory. It is assumed by many that Ishamael channeled the True Power almost exclusively from a certain point onwards, and that the eyes and mouth of flame he exhibited are an extremely advanced form of the Saa. The apparently quick disintegration of Ishy's corpse in TDR might also be an effect of this, as we know from ACOS that there is a physical price to using the TP.

However, there is also one other time when we can know the True Power definitely is used. This example is most often neglected by readers, mainly because of where it takes place: right at the start of the series. In the prologue to TEOTW, Ishy heals LTT of Madness using the True Power. Here's the relevant passage:

I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.” His sudden smile was cruel. “But I fear Shai’tan’s healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!” He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.
Pain blazed in Lews Therin, and he screamed, a scream that came from his depths, a scream he could not stop. Fire seared his marrow; acid rushed along his veins. He toppled backwards, crashing to the marble floor; his head struck the stone and rebounded. His heart pounded, trying to beat its way out of his chest, and every pulse gushed new flame through him. Helplessly he convulsed, thrashing, his skull a sphere of purest agony on the point of bursting. His hoarse screams reverberated through the palace.
Slowly, ever so slowly, the pain receded. The outflowing seemed to take a thousand years and left him twitching weakly, sucking breath through a raw throat. Another thousand years seemed to pass before he could manage to heave himself over, muscles like jellyfish, and shakily push himself up on hands and knees."

Note that Ishamael as much as tells LTT he's going to use the TP to heal him, and also the shadow effect, believed to be associated with TP use from examples of both Moridin and Rand using it (and also arguably Mazrim Taim).

It's generally assumed that Rand's ability in TGS to use the TP is because of the "crossing the streams" of Balefire he and Moridin experienced in ACOS. For reasons I will go into below, I do not think this is the case.

I believe Rand is able to use the True Power because he was healed by it in the quoted scene in the prologue of TEOTW.

[Note that I am assuming that LTT and Rand are one and the same, and ignoring any arguments about one soul or two, or real or construct, as they are totally irrelevant to this theory]

There are numerous reasons why I believe this to be the case. I'll start with a quote from RJ:
Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to Heal insanity.
Contrast that with this quote from Brandon:
Matt: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?
Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording: generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it. It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.
So what does this tell us? Well, there is an unasked question here, ignoring whether or not Rand had the DO's permission for the moment. The first quote might seem to say something it doesn't: that anyone who desires it can have access to the True Power if the DO would but let it. Obviously, that isn't the case: if the DO could just make an instant army of True Power-ed Darkfriends he'd do so, and would have conquered the world centuries ago, if not secured his release. It would appear that you have to at least be a channeler to use it, but again, if he could just give permission to everyone in the Black Ajah, why not do it?

There is an additional characteristic possessed by everyone except Rand who can channel the True Power: they're all Forsaken. There appear to be a couple of contradictory statements about whether Forsaken immortality is an effect of the True Power or not, but we can ignore that for the minute, because the one characteristic shared by everyone who's a Forsaken, can channel the TP, and isn't Rand al'Thor, is that they've all been to Shayol Ghul, and been in the presence of the Dark One.

"It is possible to talk with [the Dark One]. Go to Shayol Ghul, into the Pit of Doom, and you can . . . hear him. You can . . . bathe in his presence.” A different light shone on her face, now. Ecstasy.

Becoming a Forsaken isn't just a matter of being the best Darkfriend. You have to go to SG and do this. I suggest that this is a prerequisite for using the True Power as well, and hence is the reason why we've (so far) only seen the Forsaken confirmed using it (Taim is, at the moment, unconfirmed).

So how can Rand use it? There are two possibilities, and what it actually comes down to is whether he has permission or not. The first is the widely held view that it has to do with the link with Moridin, and that the DO was essentially confused as to who was drawing the TP, and so let Rand get away with it and destroy Semirhage.

My problem with this is that everything channeling the TP allows Rand to do benefits the Dark One. For reasons unknown, the DO seems to need Rand to turn to his side in order to win, and simply having him as a captive of the male a'dam doesn't seem to be enough. For a start, there's the ultimate weakness of the male a'dam that it allows the male as much control as the female(s), and since Rand is so willful, it's possible that what happened with the a'dam was simply that timetable getting accelerated. Then there's the fact that as a result of what Semirhage did, we got Dark Rand, and also the various negative effects use of the True Power has on individuals, including insanity. Making Rand more insane was definitely something the Dark One was out to do, and allowing him access to the True Power in this situation definitely benefits him.

So it's probably not the case that the Dark One was confused about who was using his power at the time. Therefore Rand's True Power usage is not necessarily a function of the blurring between him and Moridin, which definitely is taking place. The problem regarding that merging is that it appears to be more of a physical phenomenon rather than metaphysical. It involves Moridin experiencing pain from Rand's stump, and both men experiencing physical sickness when the other embraces the source. Both also experience visions of the other.

So if Rand had the DO's permission to use the TP, how does he fulfil the second apparent prerequisite of needing to visit SG to get access? Apparently, he doesn't, but again, if it's via the link with Moridin, it could be confusion on the Dark One's part, or that he's somehow drawing it through the link. However, this would suggest that Rand and Moridin are far more linked than they appear to be. As I stated above, there are many physical symptoms of the link, but few that appear related to the soul. One major argument in favour of this line of thinking is Rand's experience atop Dragonmount; he's able to overcome and protect against the darkness in his mind and soul somehow, and yet still seems to be linked to Moridin through TOM. This suggests the link isn't soul-related, yet.

There is, then, one other possibility: Rand has touched the Dark One in some other way. Now, the quotes I've already posted imply that channeling tainted Saidin isn't enough, coupled with the fact that if it was, why not an army of tainted male dreadlords years ago? So is there another circumstance which would allow Rand to fulfil that requirement?
Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?
Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern. That is not a direct answer to your question but I think there are enough implications in there that certain things can be discussed.
[I realize now, after listening to Brandon’s answer that I was making an assumption about the One Power too, that it is separate from the Creator because of what we have been given in the books and the BWB, but I should have asked if instead the One Power is the essence of the Creator...]
I suggest that there is: being healed by it in TEOTW. Brandon says in the quote above that the TP is the essence of the DO. Plus, there is Lanfear's quote about the ecstasy of bathing in the Dark One's presence; compare that with LTT's experience when being healed by the True Power. Agony and ecstasy are like two sides of the same coin, especially when you contrast someone as far in the dark as Lanfear with someone as far in the light as The Dragon.

Thus, the healing in TEOTW appears to fulfil the second requirement of being touched by the Dark One, and Rand apparently fulfils both requirements for using the TP without the link between himself and Moridin being necessary to it. The next big question, of course, is so what?

I'd say knowing this tells us a little bit more about the link with Moridin, which is likely to be pivotal to AMOL. It suggests that perhaps the link isn't quite as strong or as deep as we thought, and lends weight to some of the theories about killing Rand prior to TG being necessary for some reason, by giving us a reason for that to happen: given the physical nature of the link, killing Rand might also kill Moridin, perhaps just as he's about to do something dastardly. It lends a bit more strength to the idea of Rand's death being necessary despite his salvation atop Dragonmount; a return of Dark Rand would be very disappointing given that it would diminish the power of that scene. This is probably the main benefit, aside from metaphysical knowledge of how things work.

So, that's the theory. I fully expect it to be in pieces by the end of the week if not sooner, but I wanted to try and stimulate some discussion. Theoryland, do what Theoryland does!

The Angry Druid
12-18-2011, 12:15 AM
Very interesting theory, and well researched.

Too late for me to go into details, but I like the inventiveness of it.

Though, as you yourself say in another context, I don't think the TP being used on oneself is enough, by itself, to allow access. If that was true, than Moridin/Ishy could just go around and TP heal people and have a bunch of people who could have access (kind of risky, however).

I think the DO's permission is required in most cases. And I'm a buyer in the "crossing the streams" theory. We've seen too much evidence of bleeding over between Moridin and Rand to think there isn't something there. Though BOTH things could still be true, they aren't mutually exclusive.

I for one, think one needs the ability to channel, and the DO's permission, or have some funky merging with one who does. Rand has both (at least initially).

Oh, and I'd like to point out that RJ's quote on healing insanity seems to be directly contradicted by Nynaeve healing insanity with the One Power in ToM, and I think it is also referenced in a passage talking about Semirhage's abilitites at some point.

Lupusdeusest
12-18-2011, 01:17 AM
I could throttle Semirhage for what she did.

It still could have been deliberate. I'm divided on the issue too.
Something i have always wondered - it seems the TP hasn't halves, as the OP does. Could a male therefore see a female's weaves without aid of weave or t'a, then? and vice versa?
(And can we play into this the theme of men-and-women-working-together?)





(Just noticed I cracked my centenary a couple of posts ago! Hooray for finally being a contributing member!)

The Unreasoner
12-18-2011, 03:02 AM
My TGS/ToM timelines are a bit rusty, but have we seen Moridin post-DM epiphany?

The Unreasoner
12-18-2011, 03:05 AM
Could a male therefore see a female's weaves without aid of weave or t'a, then? and vice versa?
Graendal could see Moridin's weaves for TP gatways. I am a firm believer in the power of diversification and strong gender-based differences. Which is why OP>TP.

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2011, 05:40 AM
Out of curiosity: wouldn't the whole "Strike on Shayol Ghul" flap be an even better occasion when LTT might have come into contact with the DO?

Zombie Sammael
12-18-2011, 06:56 AM
It still could have been deliberate. I'm divided on the issue too.
Something i have always wondered - it seems the TP hasn't halves, as the OP does. Could a male therefore see a female's weaves without aid of weave or t'a, then? and vice versa?
(And can we play into this the theme of men-and-women-working-together?)





(Just noticed I cracked my centenary a couple of posts ago! Hooray for finally being a contributing member!)

No-one can see TP weaves except the person doing the weaving:

Q: What was the deal with that sentence concerning True Power detectability?
RJ: The True Power is only detectable by the 'single person' wielding it, and it cannot be seen by others, as the One Power can.

As for the quote you mention, that only implies to me that Semirhage's actions in taking Rand captive weren't what the Dark actually wanted or needed. It's also Moridin being personally upset that his hand hurts, of course.

My TGS/ToM timelines are a bit rusty, but have we seen Moridin post-DM epiphany?

I don't believe we have, actually. His appearances in TOM were pre-Dragonmount.

Out of curiosity: wouldn't the whole "Strike on Shayol Ghul" flap be an even better occasion when LTT might have come into contact with the DO?

Of course. The trouble with that is that it's less verifiable. We know he had to touch Saidin to the bore, but not if he himself had to actually be present in the Pit of Doom to do it. Since channeling at the Pit of Doom is suicide, I would say probably not. We also know the TP and the taint are different, so being touched by the taint as LTT and the rest obviously were probably isn't enough to allow TP access; only the TP is described as the essence of the Dark One. Now, I'd actually be open to the idea that the taint actually flowed backwards from the DO to Saidin; that is, that LTT and the Hundred were used as a conduit for the taint going into Saidin, hence why they went mad on the spot. I still don't think that's quite enough, as by that point the DO would be sealed, and I don't think the taint is quite as close to pure DO as the TP is. So that's why the strike at SG doesn't strike me as being the right time. But it is a possibility.

Oden
12-18-2011, 08:13 AM
I always thought that the soul gets clean by the time the person dies. Is there anything else that comes along from one lifetime to another?
Rand's half healed-never healing wound from Falme is the connection I believe suit better.

Also, the DO can restrict the Forsaken from using the TP. That means that the DO has control over it. The why for the DO's restriction must be significant. If all of the Forsaken were to use the TP the DO might lose some power in the world (i.e. SH, weather and Blight expansion). The DO might not have had enought infuence before the Seals started breaking to constribute TP to more than Ishamael.

Zombie Sammael
12-18-2011, 09:57 AM
I always thought that the soul gets clean by the time the person dies. Is there anything else that comes along from one lifetime to another?
Rand's half healed-never healing wound from Falme is the connection I believe suit better.

Also, the DO can restrict the Forsaken from using the TP. That means that the DO has control over it. The why for the DO's restriction must be significant. If all of the Forsaken were to use the TP the DO might lose some power in the world (i.e. SH, weather and Blight expansion). The DO might not have had enought infuence before the Seals started breaking to constribute TP to more than Ishamael.

Memories evidently can carry over from one life to the next after death, as we saw with Rand. More significantly, channeling ability is also something that is associated (to some extent) with the soul, so it seems to me that if the basic ability to channel the TP was there (without the additional requirement of permission) it would be retained across lives.

As to the second point, we know that the OP is finite. I guess what you're suggesting is that the DO/TP too can be used up. The trouble with that is that if the TP is the essence of the DO, why not just let people channel him out of his prison?

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2011, 10:35 AM
It seems unlikely that simply using the TP would be enough to free the DO. If it could be done that way, then Ishamael/Moridin would have managed it by now.

I think that the total amount of TP which can be used in the world is severely limited, probably because it has to pass through the walls of the DO's prison. This means that it would never be a really serious option as a complete replacement for the OP for the forces of the Shadow.

Thus, as far as the DO is concerned, the TP is both a limited resource, and one that is only of limited use. Then the best he can do with it is offer some select few of his minions the use of it, while leaving all the others wishing that they too would be favored enough to earn this.

Oden
12-19-2011, 08:04 AM
Memories evidently can carry over from one life to the next after death, as we saw with Rand. More significantly, channeling ability is also something that is associated (to some extent) with the soul, so it seems to me that if the basic ability to channel the TP was there (without the additional requirement of permission) it would be retained across lives.

As to the second point, we know that the OP is finite. I guess what you're suggesting is that the DO/TP too can be used up. The trouble with that is that if the TP is the essence of the DO, why not just let people channel him out of his prison?

The memories, right. I didn't think of those.

Regarding the OP
Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.


The second point I tried to make was that the DO can't supply all channeling DFs with TP because the seals and the prison are preventing him.

Zombie Sammael
12-19-2011, 08:14 AM
The memories, right. I didn't think of those.

Regarding the OP



The second point I tried to make was that the DO can't supply all channeling DFs with TP because the seals and the prison are preventing him.

But obviously the seals and the prison don't prevent him from providing some DF Channelers with the TP, so what's the upper limit? Is the reason only Moridin had the TP because it was over-exerting the DO to give it to others, and is that why only a trickle was allowed to Graendal? How does that square with Rand's use of it? He channelled enough to BF Semirhage and Elza. What about Taim? He certainly appears to be both willing and able to give permission as he chooses, to as many as he chooses, especially if there were 30 people using it in the AOL. What other constraint could there be than those loyal to him and willing to enter the Pit of Doom to prove it?

GonzoTheGreat
12-19-2011, 08:22 AM
As far as we know, in the time that they could still do so, none of the Forsaken apart from Ishamael used the TP. But when it was taken away from them, and then granted to just one in a "limited offer", Graendal started using it again.
So I would bet that it is mainly psychology which is the reason why the TP is not made a lot more widely available.

Oden
12-19-2011, 08:34 AM
He certainly appears to be both willing and able to give permission as he chooses, to as many as he chooses, especially if there were 30 people using it in the AOL. What other constraint could there be than those loyal to him and willing to enter the Pit of Doom to prove it?

This is where theories come to play.
I think that the DO can only supply 10 "wagon loads" of TP at a time.
The DO gives 4 people (I'm including Taim) permission to use it, one of those only one tenth of a "wagon load". When Rand killed Semirhage and Elsa he used, say, 6 "wagon loads". At that time the other 3 could only use 4 "wagon load" combined.
The DO restricts it in order to give a greater amount of power to those allowed to use the TP.

BTW, is the DO genderless? If that is the case, we should call the DO "it".

Zombie Sammael
12-19-2011, 08:46 AM
This is where theories come to play.
I think that the DO can only supply 10 "wagon loads" of TP at a time.
The DO gives 4 people (I'm including Taim) permission to use it, one of those only one tenth of a "wagon load". When Rand killed Semirhage and Elsa he used, say, 6 "wagon loads". At that time the other 3 could only use 4 "wagon load" combined.
The DO restricts it in order to give a greater amount of power to those allowed to use the TP.

BTW, is the DO genderless? If that is the case, we should call the DO "it".

But I'm not sure what evidence there is for that. I mean, I assume this essentially still goes to the assertion I made in my theory that to channel the TP you have to be in contact with the DO, and the only people who've had that are Chosen and, potentially, those who've had the TP used on them. Now, I can see the argument that the DO restricts usage in order to promote competition between the Chosen. That goes along with what we know his plans to be. But I don't see what evidence there is to suggest he can only supply a certain amount of TP at a time. I'd think that if you've got that connection with him, it's there.

We should refer to the DO as "it" as it is genderless, but in the series, he's referred to as a he. It actually makes sense in this particular series given that women are the only ones who are able to channel the OP safely, i.e. male=bad and female=good.

fdsaf3
12-20-2011, 02:45 PM
As to the second point, we know that the OP is finite.

We do?

Based on what? Wouldn't this imply (or even state directly) that the OP can be totally used up? What about during the Cleansing when Rand passed through the entirety of saidin through the tube of saidar? If he was working with the finite total volume (for lack of a better term) of saidin, does that mean that no other male channeling could occur at the time? Then how do you explain other male channelers being able to channel during the battle?

If there's a reference for saidin/saidar being finite, I'd like to see it (not challenging accusing, I'm just curious). I prefer to think of the halves of the one power as being infinite, but perhaps with a low cardinality (sorry for so much math-speak).

Crispin's Crispian
12-20-2011, 03:44 PM
I think the OP is infinite but bounded, so to speak. The best analogy I can come up with is an infinitely deep well with a finite circumference.

The Taint was finite, and covered only the surface of the well, such that channeling saidin had to be done through the Taint. Rand siphoned off all of the Taint without channeling all of the One Power.

However, it is also possible that it is finite. Rand was never channeling all of it at any one point, so others were free to use it. This is analogous to a swimming pool filter. People can still swim in the pool even as the filter is skimming off all the dead wasps and kiddie pee.

Marie Curie 7
12-23-2011, 10:59 AM
I think the OP is infinite but bounded, so to speak. The best analogy I can come up with is an infinitely deep well with a finite circumference.

The Taint was finite, and covered only the surface of the well, such that channeling saidin had to be done through the Taint. Rand siphoned off all of the Taint without channeling all of the One Power.

However, it is also possible that it is finite. Rand was never channeling all of it at any one point, so others were free to use it. This is analogous to a swimming pool filter. People can still swim in the pool even as the filter is skimming off all the dead wasps and kiddie pee.


RJ settled this a while back. The One Power is finite:

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9895)

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

fdsaf3
12-23-2011, 12:48 PM
Dang it, stop coming in and ruining my thoughts with your proof and your quotes! :D

But seriously, this doesn't make sense to me. If the One Power is finite, that means it can all be used at one time (duh).

When Rand was atop Dragonmount channeling enough Saidin to destroy the Choedan Kal, how much of the finite amount of the One Power was he channeling? How about when Saidin was cleansed? You'd figure that it was a large percentage in either case, right? So theoretically, if I am understanding this properly, someone could attempt to channel the One Power and not be able to due to there not being "enough" available?

Interesting. I would assume that the finite amount is impossibly huge. I wonder what would happen if all channelers in the world with as many angreal and sa'angreal as there are in the world attempted to use it all up.

GonzoTheGreat
12-23-2011, 12:56 PM
Interesting. I would assume that the finite amount is impossibly huge. I wonder what would happen if all channelers in the world with as many angreal and sa'angreal as there are in the world attempted to use it all up.
Unsuited for research, but you could still teach (adapted from: LoC, Prologue, The First Message).

Alternatively: didn't LTT carry out that experiment already?

Weird Harold
12-23-2011, 09:31 PM
I wonder what would happen if all channelers in the world with as many angreal and sa'angreal as there are in the world attempted to use it all up.

Reread the sections dealing with the Channeling problems caused by the Bowl of the Winds. The simplistic explanation for those troubles is that the BotW locally (nearly) depleted the OP and the turbulence of OP rushing in from surrounding areas caused the Channling problems.

Rand al'Fain
12-24-2011, 01:15 AM
Reread the sections dealing with the Channeling problems caused by the Bowl of the Winds. The simplistic explanation for those troubles is that the BotW locally (nearly) depleted the OP and the turbulence of OP rushing in from surrounding areas caused the Channling problems.

However, that was only to a certain area, as many of the channelers/sul'dam commented that the closer to Ebou Dar, the harder it was to control it, while farther away, it got easier.

For a bit of a contradictory info, very shortly after they finished using the Bowl of Winds, Elayne created a Gateway and had no trouble with it until she started to unravel it 1 thread at a time. And from Aviendha's own words, not only do you need to have a knack for it personally, but you have to train for a long time in order to do it right. And about all we know, up until Rand attacks the Seanchan and gets closer and closer to Ebou Dar, is that when the Gateway collapsed, is that it exploded.

Weird Harold
12-24-2011, 05:16 AM
However, that was only to a certain area, as many of the channelers/sul'dam commented that the closer to Ebou Dar, the harder it was to control it, while farther away, it got easier.

For a bit of a contradictory info, very shortly after they finished using the Bowl of Winds, Elayne created a Gateway and had no trouble with it until she started to unravel it 1 thread at a time. And from Aviendha's own words, not only do you need to have a knack for it personally, but you have to train for a long time in order to do it right. And about all we know, up until Rand attacks the Seanchan and gets closer and closer to Ebou Dar, is that when the Gateway collapsed, is that it exploded.
The BotW only affected a limited area, but the effect scales up to world-wide for a scaled-up drain on the OP.

The BotW did effect Elayne's gateway and especially her ability to unravel it. When the lag-time involved in the effect manifesting combined with Elayne's inexperience in unraaveling weaves, the "slippery" strands of her weave aren't particularly remarkable -- even though they are the first symptoms of the OP being overused.

Thre are differences between the BotW and the Cleansing -- most notably the time that the OP was tied up in the weave before returning to the reservoir. One can posit that the BOTW was used where the OP was shallower than near Shadar Logoth or Dragonmount.

Consider also, traditional folk magic -- Ley lines, "places of power," ancient structures that concentrate power, etc. Given RJ's attempts to tie our real world myths and legends into the WOT, that traditional folk-magic could be the result of massive amounts of OP tied up powering the patch on the DO's prison -- the dregs of a once near-limitless reservoir.

Rand al'Fain
12-24-2011, 12:22 PM
Okay, I guess. But a quick question:

Does RJ ever say or left notes saying that the OP is finite? Because Moiraine distinctly says to Eggy when first training her in EotW, that the OP cannot be used up, and we have heard nothing from any channelers, including the Forsaken, that the OP can be used up. And prior to the battles with Rand's forces, there is no mention of the Seanchan channelers having problems in or around Ebou Dar, only during the battles that are within proximity to Ebou Dar do we get the unstable OP.

Just asking because there has been little to nothing that actually says, or even hints at, the OP being finite, at least from what I've read.

suttree
12-24-2011, 01:04 PM
Okay, I guess. But a quick question:

Does RJ ever say or left notes saying that the OP is finite? Because Moiraine distinctly says to Eggy when first training her in EotW, that the OP cannot be used up, and we have heard nothing from any channelers, including the Forsaken, that the OP can be used up. And prior to the battles with Rand's forces, there is no mention of the Seanchan channelers having problems in or around Ebou Dar, only during the battles that are within proximity to Ebou Dar do we get the unstable OP.

Just asking because there has been little to nothing that actually says, or even hints at, the OP being finite, at least from what I've read.

Yes he does...

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?
RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

Rand al'Fain
12-24-2011, 02:16 PM
Yes he does...

Okay, that helps, thanks!

Seeker
12-24-2011, 04:26 PM
My problem with this is that everything channeling the TP allows Rand to do benefits the Dark One. For reasons unknown, the DO seems to need Rand to turn to his side in order to win, and simply having him as a captive of the male a'dam doesn't seem to be enough. For a start, there's the ultimate weakness of the male a'dam that it allows the male as much control as the female(s), and since Rand is so willful, it's possible that what happened with the a'dam was simply that timetable getting accelerated. Then there's the fact that as a result of what Semirhage did, we got Dark Rand, and also the various negative effects use of the True Power has on individuals, including insanity. Making Rand more insane was definitely something the Dark One was out to do, and allowing him access to the True Power in this situation definitely benefits him.

I don't think the Dark One NEEDS Rand to convert to his side. I think it's merely the most convenient way to win.

There are other methods if Rand chooses not to go to the Shadow (or remains sane enough to avoid destroying the world).

Terez
12-24-2011, 04:50 PM
Okay, that helps, thanks!RTFT.

GonzoTheGreat
12-24-2011, 05:08 PM
RTFT.
Noobs can't know everything (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=172718&postcount=18).

Weird Harold
12-25-2011, 04:12 AM
Does RJ ever say or left notes saying that the OP is finite?

Marie Curie posted that interview quote six posts before you asked.

And prior to the battles with Rand's forces, there is no mention of the Seanchan channelers having problems in or around Ebou Dar, only during the battles that are within proximity to Ebou Dar do we get the unstable OP.


The BotW and Elayne's Exploding Gateway (Pat Pending) happened a little over one hundred miles from Ebou Dar and not much further from Illian. It was closer than that to the lines between advancingnSeanchan forces and Rand's counter-attack -- both forces who experienced problems channeling.