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yks 6nnetu hing
12-28-2011, 10:18 AM
I've been pretty snarky about Israel before, but seriously, I had no idea it has gotten this bad!

Here's the link to the article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/27/shimon-peres-condemns-extremists?newsfeed=true)



Shimon Peres condemns ultra-orthodox extremists as tensions escalate

Israel's president says minority threaten national values as TV news shows sobbing 8-year-old recounting ordeal
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem

Naama Margolese, 8, with her mother Hadassa in their home in Beit Shemesh. Her story on Israeli television news drew fresh attention to the tensions between ultra-orthodox extremists and the rest of the population. Photograph: Oded Balilty/AP


Israel's president urged "the entire nation" to support the battle "to save the majority from the hands of a small minority" on Tuesday, amid rising tensions between the country's secular and religious Jews on one side and extremist ultra-orthodox groups on the other.

"We are fighting for the soul of the nation and the essence of the state," Shimon Peres said as thousands of Israelis gathered for a protest following an attack on an eight-year-old girl for dressing "immodestly".

Tuesday's demonstration in the town of Beit Shemesh took place close to a school at which girls as young as six have been targeted by zealous ultra-orthodox, or Haredi, men for dressing in regulation knee-length skirts and tops with sleeves to at least the elbow.

Haredi protesters have spat and shouted "whore" and "Nazi" at the pupils and their mothers. Earlier this week, Israeli television news broadcast footage of Naama Margolese, eight, sobbing as she described being abused and spat at on the street by Haredi men. The girl comes from an orthodox Jewish family and attends Orot girls school, which serves religious Jewish families in the area.

Two days of rioting and attacks on television crews by zealous Haredi men in Beit Shemesh followed the broadcast.

Beit Shemesh has become a focal point of tensions between extremist Haredi groups, whose numbers in the city are increasing, and its majority religious-nationalist population. The Haredim are opposed to the location of the girls' school next to an ultra-orthodox enclave.

But there has been mounting concern in recent months over broader demands by extremist Haredim to remove images of women from advertising billboards in Jerusalem, enforce gender segregation on public transport, in shops and medical centres, and ban women soldiers from taking part in singing and dancing events organised by the army.

Last week a woman bus passenger made headlines when she refused to comply with a demand from a Haredi man on the bus that she move to the rear. A policeman called by the driver also asked the woman to move. When she continued to refuse, the Haredi man disembarked.

Despite an Israeli court ruling outlawing enforced segregation on buses earlier this year, "voluntary segregation" is permitted. Women mainly sit at the back and men mainly at the front on some routes in Jerusalem.

Peres told reporters at his official residence that Tuesday's protest against ultra-orthodox extremism was "a test in which the entire nation will have to mobilise to rescue the majority from the claws of a small minority that is chipping away at our most hallowed values".

He added: "No person has the right to threaten a girl, a woman or any person in any way. They are not the lords of this land."

His comments followed similar criticism of extremist ultra-orthodox groups by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, earlier this week. He told cabinet colleagues there was no place for harassment or sex discrimination in Israel's "democratic, Western, liberal state".

The police, he said, would arrest people who "spit, harass or raise a hand". But, Netanyahu added, this was a social issue, not just a legal one, and required action by public figures and religious leaders. The US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, also criticised gender segregation and the exclusion of women from the public sphere earlier this month, saying it was reminiscent of extremist regimes.

The Haredim in Israel are about 10% of the population, but form a far higher proportion in cities such as Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh.

Extremist protesters are a small minority within the ultra-orthodox community and many Haredi leaders have spoken out against their views and actions. Peres acknowledged that most Haredim did not support the extremists. "The ultra-orthodox public in Israel as a whole opposes these phenomena and condemns them," he said. "It is important that they continue to do so and to speak in a loud and clear voice."


WTF? calling moderate, yet still observant Orthodox Jews "Nazis"????



For a more... let's say: "polarized" view, here's an opinion piece from Aljazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/20111228131232259788.html)

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2011, 10:50 AM
From that Aljazeera piece:
I won't get my hopes up for the adults accepting and acting upon this reality any time soon. But as she grows up, we can hope that Naama's firsthand experience of exclusion, oppression, bigotry and even hatred, will help her see the equal humanity of the Israeli Other - Palestinians - more fully than her parent's generation has been able to do.
It does not work that way. If that worked, then this problem would not exist in Israel in the first place.
Humans who have been on the wrong* side of abuse are more likely to become abusive themselves, not less likely.

* Neat, isn't it. Makes one wonder what the right side is.

Ivhon
12-28-2011, 10:52 AM
I've been pretty snarky about Israel before, but seriously, I had no idea it has gotten this bad!

Here's the link to the article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/27/shimon-peres-condemns-extremists?newsfeed=true)



WTF? calling moderate, yet still observant Orthodox Jews "Nazis"????



For a more... let's say: "polarized" view, here's an opinion piece from Aljazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/20111228131232259788.html)

So....this is different form Shariah law, how?

Just more evidence that the Israelis are not so different from the Arabs they hate. And the Christians in this country are not so different either. Just a matter of entrenchment.

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2011, 11:13 AM
So....this is different form Shariah law, how?Fewer prophets.
Which, admittedly, doesn't seem to have all that many practical repercussions.

Tomp
12-28-2011, 11:22 AM
The only peaceful fanatics are WoT-fanatics, at least so far.

We now have one creator and one prophet. (RJ and BS) :)

Davian93
12-28-2011, 11:43 AM
The only peaceful fanatics are WoT-fanatics, at least so far.

We now have one creator and one prophet. (RJ and BS) :)

BS is not a prophet, he is merely currently infused with the Spirit of the Creator while he finishes the Work.

Also, you genuflect on the wrong knee, heathen!!!


GET HIM!

Tomp
12-28-2011, 11:52 AM
BS is not a prophet, he is merely currently infused with the Spirit of the Creator while he finishes the Work.

Also, you genuflect on the wrong knee, heathen!!!


GET HIM!

That was how far the peaceful bit lasted. :(

I guess "heroes of the horn" are saints.

Davian93
12-28-2011, 11:55 AM
That was how far the peaceful bit lasted. :(

I guess "heroes of the horn" are saints.

Yes, if you worship us and build us altars, we may decide to intercede with the Creator on your behalf. However, our ways are mysterious and oftentimes it will appear as if we ignore your requests.

Frenzy
12-28-2011, 11:57 AM
doesn't it warm the heart and rile the gut to see that hatred and stupidity transcend racial and national boundaries?

Ivhon
12-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes, if you worship us and build us altars, we may decide to intercede with the Creator on your behalf. However, our ways are mysterious and oftentimes it will appear as if we ignore your requests.

For the record, the best way to get my active involvement is through sacrifices of beer and rare steak at the various alters of Ivhon.

And my intercessions are DEFINITELY sought after as I carry a tremendous amount of weight....

Sei'taer
12-28-2011, 01:32 PM
For the record, the best way to get my active involvement is through sacrifices of beer and rare steak at the various alters of Ivhon.

And my intercessions are DEFINITELY sought after as I carry a tremendous amount of weight....

~casually flips through the Book of Ivhon~ Not seeing it in here. Could you point me to the correct verse?

Tomp
12-28-2011, 01:44 PM
For the record, the best way to get my active involvement is through sacrifices of beer and rare steak at the various alters of Ivhon.

And my intercessions are DEFINITELY sought after as I carry a tremendous amount of weight....

If you carry a tremendous amount of weight maybe beer and rare steak isn't the answer.
How about a glass of water and a nice salad. :D

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-28-2011, 03:14 PM
But there has been mounting concern in recent months over broader demands by extremist Haredim to remove images of women from advertising billboards in Jerusalem, enforce gender segregation on public transport, in shops and medical centres, and ban women soldiers from taking part in singing and dancing events organised by the army.


because if you pretend I don't exist, then I don't, right? Take my picture out of adverts, tell me to sit in the back and spit on me and I will quietly succumb? Yipes doesn't begin to describe the level my eyebrows rose at both articles. Thanks for sharing.

Love the part about the soldiers. Let 'em carry grenades and guns, fight and die for me, but dammit, they WILL NOT DANCE!

Res_Ipsa
12-28-2011, 04:22 PM
Yes, if you worship us and build us altars, we may decide to intercede with the Creator on your behalf. However, our ways are mysterious and oftentimes it will appear as if we ignore your requests.

Until we realize you are just mortals and burn your altars and shrines and then set up ourselves as gods. Sounds like a greek tragedy.

Davian93
12-28-2011, 05:00 PM
because if you pretend I don't exist, then I don't, right? Take my picture out of adverts, tell me to sit in the back and spit on me and I will quietly succumb? Yipes doesn't begin to describe the level my eyebrows rose at both articles. Thanks for sharing.

Love the part about the soldiers. Let 'em carry grenades and guns, fight and die for me, but dammit, they WILL NOT DANCE!

http://www.ilovestickyrice.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/kevin-bacon-footloose.jpg

Sinistrum
12-28-2011, 07:55 PM
Clearly because there are some assholes in Israeli society then that means that the entire society is somehow responsible for the Palestinian mess. Or perhaps that means they deserve to succomb to what Palestinians want to do to them (ie destroy their country and drive them into the sea). Or that there is a moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians. I love Theoryland. So many logical fallacies abound.

Frenzy
12-29-2011, 12:29 AM
Clearly because there are some assholes in Israeli society then that means that the entire society is somehow responsible for the Palestinian mess. Or perhaps that means they deserve to succomb to what Palestinians want to do to them (ie destroy their country and drive them into the sea). Or that there is a moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians. I love Theoryland. So many logical fallacies abound.
Hey, i'd say there are as many cave-trolls living in the US, screaming their racial and/or gender bias/hatred to anyone who will listen. But i don't think anyone denounces the entire US because we have a bucket-load of ignorant assholes.

anyone here, anyway.

for the most part.

ANYway, anyone else creeped out that a group of grown men ganged up and threatened and harassed a 6-year-old girl?

Frenzy
12-29-2011, 12:34 AM
You know what this sick sad world needs? More Prairie Shit! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWmf3Waio9E)

yks 6nnetu hing
12-29-2011, 02:41 AM
Clearly because there are some assholes in Israeli society then that means that the entire society is somehow responsible for the Palestinian mess. Or perhaps that means they deserve to succomb to what Palestinians want to do to them (ie destroy their country and drive them into the sea). Or that there is a moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians. I love Theoryland. So many logical fallacies abound.

ah, but the problem is, and if you had actually read the article carefully you might have noticed it, as it's pointed out several times, including in the title: the moderates are (as in most societies, really) being moderate and going on with their daily lives. The extremists on the other hand are pressuring to put their religious ideas above everyone else's rights and institutionalize it in politics as well as society.

There are lots of people in Israel who do not agree with the extremists (=are moderate or even secular) but have so far lived and let live. Now this incident happened with the little girl and the moderates are protesting against the minority of religious extremists dictating the way everyone in Israel has to live.

At this point the Palestinians (Aljazeera opinion piece) are using this brilliant opportunity to point out the very similar situation Palestinians have, which should ring a bell on a rational and emotional level.

Although, sadly, Gonzo is right - in most cases being subjected to hate, violence and discrimination, particularly at a young age, only makes the subject as bad as the abuser or even worse.

GonzoTheGreat
12-29-2011, 04:38 AM
Clearly because there are some assholes in Israeli society then that means that the entire society is somehow responsible for the Palestinian mess. Or perhaps that means they deserve to succomb to what Palestinians want to do to them (ie destroy their country and drive them into the sea). Or that there is a moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians. I love Theoryland. So many logical fallacies abound.
May I applaud your use of cognitive dissonance, sir? It is an impressive example, even for your own not inconsiderable standards.

First you say that not all Israeli should be blamed for what some of them do and want, followed immediately by saying that all Palestinians should be blamed for what some of them (allegedly) want to do. Then you end it all by applauding logical fallacies.

fdsaf3
12-29-2011, 07:10 PM
Yes, if you worship us and build us altars, we may decide to intercede with the Creator on your behalf. However, our ways are mysterious and oftentimes it will appear as if we ignore your requests.

It's less impressive when you realize that all I have to do to get you to come out of your eternal party in TAR is go downstairs in my parents house and blow into my rusty old trumpet.

You'd better be careful.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-29-2011, 08:16 PM
It's less impressive when you realize that all I have to do to get you to come out of your eternal party in TAR is go downstairs in my parents house and blow into my rusty old trumpet.

You'd better be careful.

There is a really inappropriate joke buried here. I just can't do it though.

Sei'taer
12-29-2011, 10:58 PM
There is a really inappropriate joke buried here. I just can't do it though.

Damn insightful too!

fdsaf3
12-30-2011, 09:30 AM
There is a really inappropriate joke buried here. I just can't do it though.

I must admit that I don't see anything aside from the relatively obvious "rusty old trumpet = sexual innuendo" reference.

???

Firseal
12-30-2011, 10:32 AM
I guess "heroes of the horn" are saints.

Yes.

Wait, I just looked at some of the others.

Maybe.

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2011, 10:36 AM
You're not sure of Saint Saucy? :eek:

Firseal
12-30-2011, 10:44 AM
because if you pretend I don't exist, then I don't, right? Take my picture out of adverts, tell me to sit in the back and spit on me and I will quietly succumb? Yipes doesn't begin to describe the level my eyebrows rose at both articles. Thanks for sharing.

Love the part about the soldiers. Let 'em carry grenades and guns, fight and die for me, but dammit, they WILL NOT DANCE!

The thing about prejudice - of which this is another of the delightful 52 flavors - is that once it gets entrenched it is devilishly hard to root out. The slave trade and the accompanying social designs necessary to make it platable to colonists in the New World got put to the sharp bit 150 years ago, but the bitter, hideous ingrained injustices it created that Americans generally mean when we talk about racism, that's still going strong. That muck got created and fermented in a few hundred years. The level of gender bias in the Middle East has thousands of years of bullshit to back it up. (As does the Irsaeli / Palestinian hogwash) This isn't something that gets fixed overnight.

In that view, as horrible as this is - and it's plenty goddamn horrible - it's a fight in the open now. That's to the good. And while forbidding female soldiers from dancing is the sort of stupid, seemingly-innocuous-but-not petty vileness that needs to be rooted out, cut down, and burned, don't forget that just saying there are women who can be soldiers means that one fight has already been won, and the dancing thing is a scirmish compared to wresting the right to fight for one's home and people from the grasp of a-holes who would prefer women stay somewhere walled off, be quiet, and breed.

(Yes, I know. Multiple misspellings in this one. Sorry.)

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Nitpick: at least some of those Israeli extremists would sort of prefer to do away with the idea of female soldiers too. Most of them dislike the idea of having to serve themselves more, which is a bit of a problem for them. Once they've caught on to the American solution of using mercenaries they'll be able to have a proper all male army once again, I'm sure.

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2011, 11:35 AM
Nitpick: at least some of those Israeli extremists would sort of prefer to do away with the idea of female soldiers too. Most of them dislike the idea of having to serve themselves more, which is a bit of a problem for them. Once they've caught on to the American solution of using mercenaries they'll be able to have a proper all male army once again, I'm sure.

Yeah . . . you, a Dutchman, should not talk about mercenaries at all. I love this moral relativism thing, it basically means I can just bring up anything any remotely relevant and I get to gut check your argument. Plus, being European means that, according to my extremely in depth mathematical analysis, for every 1 American mistake, you have made at least 50 if not 100. After all, Europe was screwing up the entire world long before we came along.

This is why I prefer substantive arguments but you persist in your argument method so I will have fun with it.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-30-2011, 12:12 PM
You're not sure of Saint Saucy? :eek:

:P

wait, who is DOUBTING my saintliness?

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2011, 12:46 PM
Yeah . . . you, a Dutchman, should not talk about mercenaries at all.
Why not?

If the Dutch do not have any personal experience with it, then you can't blame them for it either, can you?
But if they do, then I could easily say that I was basing my objections to the use of mercenaries on that experience.

So, I'll bounce this ball straight back at you: why do you think that using mercenaries is a good idea, even though it has been known for at least 500 years that there are very serious problems with it?

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2011, 01:42 PM
Why not?

If the Dutch do not have any personal experience with it, then you can't blame them for it either, can you?
But if they do, then I could easily say that I was basing my objections to the use of mercenaries on that experience.

So, I'll bounce this ball straight back at you: why do you think that using mercenaries is a good idea, even though it has been known for at least 500 years that there are very serious problems with it?

Pretty sure this is a trap if you want to have an intelligent argument.

I won't give you a history lesson on the Dutch use of mercenaries but I think you are confusing what a mercenary is and what the US employs in civilian contractors. There is a difference. However, I am against paying private entities a better salary than our own troops to do the same thing. However, we both know that if the salaries of troops were higher then there would be a cry against making "war" attractive in the monetary sense. Your side of the spectrum makes arguing inherently frustrating because you pretend to smell like roses while you really rut in the mud with the rest of us.

Firseal
12-30-2011, 02:17 PM
Yeah . . . you, a Dutchman, should not talk about mercenaries at all. I love this moral relativism thing, it basically means I can just bring up anything any remotely relevant and I get to gut check your argument. Plus, being European means that, according to my extremely in depth mathematical analysis, for every 1 American mistake, you have made at least 50 if not 100. After all, Europe was screwing up the entire world long before we came along.

This is why I prefer substantive arguments but you persist in your argument method so I will have fun with it.

Um. Wow. Hey, Gonzo, I found someone who is so holier-than-thou, he puts me on YOUR side immediately.

Oh, right, I've heard about this guy. Has Theoryland discovered the script equivilent of a mute button yet?

Oh, and really, screwing up the world is a humanity thing. Blaming it on one nationality, especially if it allows you to try and claim that your country screwing the world over isn't as bad because it's only been around to fuck up for two centuries and counting (235, 228, or 223 years depending on when you are counting from, if you want a nice substantive number) is a horrible argument. If a man in court said that he killed an abusive grandmother from across the street with an axe, but it didn't count because he had a mostly clean record and she was being horrible long before he was born, the jury would take two seconds to convict.

But, I digress. Especially since this will probably get a twelve paragraph response full of righteous anger and bad logic. Which I will just ignore.

Gonzo, I sympathize with you. How do I stop? It is hurting my vim.

Firseal
12-30-2011, 02:18 PM
:P

wait, who is DOUBTING my saintliness?

Gonzo. Would you like to borrow the Paddle of Pain?

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2011, 02:30 PM
But, I digress. Especially since this will probably get a twelve paragraph response full of righteous anger and bad logic. Which I will just ignore.

Way to cover your bases. I have not said this in a while but you should really learn to read (read:understand) what was said. The whole point is what I hate the "ohh look what your side" moral relativism argument. I especially like that, in light of that obvious flaw in your argument, you point to a expected future instance of "bad logic" on my part. Besides, I did not notice you jumping on Davian and others when they jumped on Gonzo for whatever it was for a Dutchman criticizing some aspect of some other country that the Dutch were instrumental in. (They were actually using moral relativism) That however is my whole point, I don't like those arguments hence why I make a very pointed obvious reference to them as such and "gut checking an argument akin to "no he did it." I am not sure why I am explaining the obvious to you because by your own words you have displayed a lack of understanding of what I actually said. Perhaps it is because I am trusting in your ability as a human to honestly judge your own statements and correct them when they are shown to be incorrect.

Frenzy
12-30-2011, 02:42 PM
you totally missed the Oedipal undertones

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2011, 02:44 PM
you totally missed the Oedipal undertones

Are you my mommy?

I will avoid the obvious grilled cheese reference.

Firseal
12-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Way to cover your bases. I have not said this in a while but you should really learn to read (read:understand) what was said. The whole point is what I hate the "ohh look what your side" moral relativism argument. I especially like that, in light of that obvious flaw in your argument, you point to a expected future instance of "bad logic" on my part. Besides, I did not notice you jumping on Davian and others when they jumped on Gonzo for whatever it was for a Dutchman criticizing some aspect of some other country that the Dutch were instrumental in. (They were actually using moral relativism) That however is my whole point, I don't like those arguments hence why I make a very pointed obvious reference to them as such and "gut checking an argument akin to "no he did it." I am not sure why I am explaining the obvious to you because by your own words you have displayed a lack of understanding of what I actually said. Perhaps it is because I am trusting in your ability as a human to honestly judge your own statements and correct them when they are shown to be incorrect.

My statements were incorrect. I read your response when I hoped I wouldn't. While I never made any claim at being human, I am accepting that I need to show that such a statement turned out to be incorrect.

The problem with what you have said and what you are saying is that you preemptively assumed that he was being morally relativistic - or at least more so than the normal human baseline as such. That is, you ascribed a motive to him that he had not in any way, with his comment, even hinted at. Beyond, of course, pointing out (quite rightly) that our country has had a disgraceful record with regards to mercenaries, but that it was a tactic that such people as these Irsaeli hardliners would cheerfully sign up for. Which are both true things, if requiring a small digression down a garden path. He did not say that his country had a better record. Which it hasn't had, really, though they learned their lesson and we are still learning ours.

As you ascribed this motive and subtext to him, you did so with me, in assuming both that I did not understand you and that I could not comprehend your point - which was a playground smear at his country dressed up as a commentary that he should not judge because his culture (as well as the cultures of his entire continent; I wonder how you'd like being judged by the ethical standards of Mexico, Nicaragua, or Honduras), and a preemptive strike to boot. Maybe you don't like him. Maybe you even hate him. But you picked a fight with nasty words when nothing of the sort was on the table.

I understand perfectly what you said. I just simply think that you said them not as any moral superior, but as someone looking for the cruel joy of cutting into others. Moreover, you in order to make your points read things into what both Gonzo and I said, coming up with motives and leanings which we did not have, in order to substantiate your own arguments, so you could claim to stand from a somewhat objective point and still call us subjective and relativistic. Gut checking does not prove objectivity, it proves where your emotions lay. It's the mind that does what you wanted to do there. But here I am, explaining the obvious to you. I just performed a head check, and realized that wasn't necessary.

P.S. Gonzo, it's nice to see you again. Been, what, a year? Two? I still don't agree with you much. See again you eventually/possibly.

fdsaf3
12-30-2011, 02:59 PM
post

Hey dude/dudette (my apologies, I don't know the gender of everyone here), you can add users to your ignore list. If you go to your control panel (click "user CP", but I'm sure you know this), click on "edit ignore list" on the left hand column. Then add whomever you want to that list.

Easy peasy.

Firseal
12-30-2011, 03:32 PM
Hey dude/dudette (my apologies, I don't know the gender of everyone here), you can add users to your ignore list. If you go to your control panel (click "user CP", but I'm sure you know this), click on "edit ignore list" on the left hand column. Then add whomever you want to that list.

Easy peasy.

Brilliant!

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2011, 03:39 PM
My statements were incorrect. I read your response when I hoped I wouldn't. While I never made any claim at being human, I am accepting that I need to show that such a statement turned out to be incorrect.

Hey, you already have shown yourself a more honest individual than myself bc I rarely openly admit when I make a mistake. I am very stubborn in that regard. I will keep arguing a point I know is wrong bc I do not want to admit defeat and then I correct my thinking after the fact (or attempt to do so).


The problem with what you have said and what you are saying is that you preemptively assumed that he was being morally relativistic - or at least more so than the normal human baseline as such. That is, you ascribed a motive to him that he had not in any way, with his comment, even hinted at. Beyond, of course, pointing out (quite rightly) that our country has had a disgraceful record with regards to mercenaries, but that it was a tactic that such people as these Irsaeli hardliners would cheerfully sign up for.

Call it an educated guess w/ Gonzo. That is why my second post was cautious and thinking it was a trap. Gonzo likes to Troll and his go to argument is "well look at how the US does things."



Which are both true things, if requiring a small digression down a garden path. He did not say that his country had a better record. Which it hasn't had, really, though they learned their lesson and we are still learning ours.

That is not the emphasis of moral relativism. As I argued it is merely a "gut check" meant to put one on the defensive and it really never substantively addresses issues.


As you ascribed this motive and subtext to him, you did so with me, in assuming both that I did not understand you and that I could not comprehend your point - which was a playground smear at his country dressed up as a commentary that he should not judge because his culture (as well as the cultures of his entire continent;

It was not a smear at all, it was applying my statement to an equally ludicrous proposition. I took it for hyperbole when I said "my mathematical process" for deriving 50 if not 100 times the fault level. That was meant to highlight the fruitless nature of the argument and not a serious argument when I expanded its scope to all of Europe. In law school, we argue by fact patterns not not made up positions of "what if." However, some people like to argue what if, and when they do I introduce equally out of scope arguments meant to highlight their absurdity.

I wonder how you'd like being judged by the ethical standards of Mexico, Nicaragua, or Honduras), and a preemptive strike to boot.

Not my point. I would tell anyone in those countries judging me to screw off and in turn I would expect them to say the same thing.

Maybe you don't like him. Maybe you even hate him. But you picked a fight with nasty words when nothing of the sort was on the table.

I don't hate him. Sini hates him. Gonzo says stupid things like "US soldiers are murderers" in an attempt to bait people into arguing. It is hard to take anyone seriously when they say things like that.

I understand perfectly what you said. I just simply think that you said them not as any moral superior, but as someone looking for the cruel joy of cutting into others.

We all assume things don't we. It is easy to think me morally superior because I am a very strong proponent of the USA. The trick is, I fully expect other citizens of other countries to be just as proud of their country as I am of mine and argue accordingly. It is easy to assume I am being "morally superiror," but let me give an example to flesh out how I view it. Sociologists look at ethnocentrism and assume it is illegitimate. Whereas it is my position it is the only legitimate position to have. Do you (not you) honestly live out your life w/ the full benefit of others in mind and only of a mind to act for their benefit through you? Of course not. In the same way, I trust others to act to their own benefit and in doing so I will act for mine. That is why I do not like moral relativism, it is argues facially only and ignores the underlying causes of why we act the way we do.

Moreover, you in order to make your points read things into what both Gonzo and I said, coming up with motives and leanings which we did not have, in order to substantiate your own arguments, so you could claim to stand from a somewhat objective point and still call us subjective and relativistic.

I don't know you. I took your statement (having never argued w/ you before) at face value of just another person criticizing me. Plus, you said you had "heard of me." I like to argue and when I argue I attack. Most people on this board at the end of the argument want to have a sitcom ending where everyone is laughing. I do not think that way and in the end, it is hard to understand me on a board w/out knowing me in real life. Which is why I spend so much time explaining my arguments after someone freaks out at me.

Gut checking does not prove objectivity, it proves where your emotions lay. It's the mind that does what you wanted to do there. But here I am, explaining the obvious to you. I just performed a head check, and realized that wasn't necessary.

Gonzo is probably laughing at both of us right now. He wins, we lose.

Sei'taer
12-30-2011, 11:25 PM
Hey dude/dudette (my apologies, I don't know the gender of everyone here), you can add users to your ignore list. If you go to your control panel (click "user CP", but I'm sure you know this), click on "edit ignore list" on the left hand column. Then add whomever you want to that list.

Easy peasy.

Firseal is actually a construct accidentally created by the mad psychosis that got left laying around TL for years. I blamed it on Frenzy in the past, but I'm not so sure anymore. Uno has more and more seemed a likely candidate...and maybe Frenzy did have a hand in it on some level.

Anyway, it doesn't really exist except on an existential level.

Frenzy
12-31-2011, 12:41 AM
Firseal is actually a construct accidentally created by the mad psychosis that got left laying around TL for years. I blamed it on Frenzy in the past, but I'm not so sure anymore. Uno has more and more seemed a likely candidate...and maybe Frenzy did have a hand in it on some level.
Of course it's my fault, except that it's Dragon Theif's fault. It's always Dragon Theif's fault.

Usually i just encourage Firseal to new heights, depths, breadths, and other dimensions of Firsealiness.

GonzoTheGreat
12-31-2011, 04:20 AM
Moreover, you in order to make your points read things into what both Gonzo and I said, coming up with motives and leanings which we did not have, in order to substantiate your own arguments, so you could claim to stand from a somewhat objective point and still call us subjective and relativistic.
Based on a rather inadequate sample, that seems to be a feature of members of the American legal profession. If you decide to examine that hypothesis, then you would need to check out a lot more lawyers. Don't use the ones that inspired this suspicion, though, as that would result in flawed* statistics.

Res_Ipsa, do you have any kind of opinion on the issue which was brought up in the OP?
To name but two options:
-You could side with religious freedom and applaud the grown up men who use freedom of expression to harass little girls.
-You could side with the moral relativists who say that those religious bigots may discriminate themselves but not others.

* Yes, I know. In psychology and such they do that all the time. But I have a more physics oriented education, and I prefer to get actually dependable results, rather than results that confirm my starting bias.

fdsaf3
12-31-2011, 11:03 AM
Firseal is actually a construct accidentally created by the mad psychosis that got left laying around TL for years. I blamed it on Frenzy in the past, but I'm not so sure anymore. Uno has more and more seemed a likely candidate...and maybe Frenzy did have a hand in it on some level.

Anyway, it doesn't really exist except on an existential level.

So......

TL = the Matrix?

:confused::confused::confused:

GonzoTheGreat
12-31-2011, 11:30 AM
So......

TL = the Matrix?

:confused::confused::confused:
No, no, no. The Matrix is not real, that's just something that is put together on the Internet. Facebook is another example of that type of thing. Even Firseal is more real than those constructs.

Sei'taer
12-31-2011, 11:54 AM
No, no, no. The Matrix is not real, that's just something that is put together on the Internet. Facebook is another example of that type of thing. Even Firseal is more real than those constructs.

Plus, if this was the Matrix, Tam would be a lot cooler.

Firseal
12-31-2011, 07:00 PM
Plus, if this was the Matrix, Tam would be a lot cooler.

If this was the Matrix, we'd all be wearing black leather with sunglasses and slick hair - and I've heard enough reports of TL get togethers to know just how many ways that would go horribly, horribly wrong.

Plus, you know, the superpowers would be abused in record time, and then the Agents would recruit Sinistrum and give up oppressive hunting of free humanity for political activism, and we'd all be screwed.