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Oden
12-22-2011, 06:24 AM
Q: Another man asked about Siuan's Talent of seeing ta'veren. Was she able to see them after she was stilled?
RJ: No.
Q: Could she see them after she was healed?
RJ: Yes.
Q: So, if the ability to see them was based on the Power, what about the Ogier Elder who knew Rand was ta'veren?
RJ: For Siuan, yes, for the Ogier, no. The Ogier was able to see (or feel, I can't remember which RJ said) the Pattern shifting around Rand.

Can anybody learn how to see (or feel) the Pattern shifting around random Ta'veren? I'm guessing that Elders' long life give them 300 years more of learning. Otherwise, is it something only the peaceful Ogier, the Treebrothers, can learn?

Zombie Sammael
12-22-2011, 06:47 AM
Can anybody learn how to see (or feel) the Pattern shifting around random Ta'veren? I'm guessing that Elders' long life give them 300 years more of learning. Otherwise, is it something only the peaceful Ogier, the Treebrothers, can learn?

If it was "feel" that would kinda make more sense. I'd suggest that the Ogier, as beings not native to this world, are possibly keener to its inner workings than ordinary humans (or other residents). The years of study and meditation Ogier elders engage in could allow them to learn to sense things others cannot.

Marie Curie 7
12-23-2011, 11:03 AM
Can anybody learn how to see (or feel) the Pattern shifting around random Ta'veren? I'm guessing that Elders' long life give them 300 years more of learning. Otherwise, is it something only the peaceful Ogier, the Treebrothers, can learn?

Loial speaks of an Ogier's ability to detect ta'veren as a Talent:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: Friends and Enemies

"Go or stay," Loial said, "together or apart, it doesn't matter. You are all three ta'veren. Even I can see it, and I don't have that Talent, just by what happens around you. And Moiraine Sedai says it, too."

Mat threw up his hands. "No more, Loial. I don't want to hear about that anymore."

Loial shook his head. "Whether you hear it or not, it is still true. The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Age, using the lives of men for thread. And you three are ta'veren, centerpoints of the weaving."


And so does Alar, the Ogier Elder:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 36 – Among the Elders

Alar eyed them each in turn, then settled to a study of Rand. She looked as if she knew things; all the Elders did, but she most of all. "Verin says you are ta'veren," she said at last, "and I can feel it in you. That I can do so means that you must be very strongly ta'veren indeed, for such Talents ever run weakly in us, if at all. Have you drawn Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, into ta'maral'ailen, the Web the Pattern weaves around you?"

Landro
12-27-2011, 05:18 PM
Does anybody have a good theory why Verin didn't share Traveling with Joline, Edesina and Teslyn?

It could be because one or more of them were black but I'd like to think Verin would have been able to deal with that if that was the case.

Seeker
12-27-2011, 05:55 PM
A better question would be how did they go through Verin's gateway without seeing the weaves? And if Verin is capable of weave reversal, which I doubt, why didn't either of these three react with surprise and shock.

In fairness, they might have done so when Mat wasn't looking but still.

David Selig
12-27-2011, 08:17 PM
Does anybody have a good theory why Verin didn't share Traveling with Joline, Edesina and Teslyn?

It could be because one or more of them were black but I'd like to think Verin would have been able to deal with that if that was the case.

Joline and Teslyn were from the Elaida faction of the Tower split, Verin supported the rebels.

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2011, 04:57 AM
Actually, Verin supported the DR, not any of the WT factions.

And it is possible that she led them through the gateway blindfolded, claiming that she was protecting Brown Ajah secrets. Those divisions between the Ajahs were a very long standing tradition, after all.

Seeker
12-28-2011, 01:15 PM
Actually, Verin supported the DR, not any of the WT factions.

And it is possible that she led them through the gateway blindfolded, claiming that she was protecting Brown Ajah secrets. Those divisions between the Ajahs were a very long standing tradition, after all.

It's possible but I doubt it because there's no mention of it in the book and Joline and Co would refuse.

Also, I don't think a blindfold would prevent you from seeing weaves since I don't think you see weaves with your eyes if you know what I mean.

I seem to recall RJ saying that a blind person could channel (which I took to mean that he could form weaves) but that he couldn't direct his efforts.

Terez
12-28-2011, 04:52 PM
A blind person could be trained to channel, but Aes Sedai apparently depend on sight (see Elayne, who couldn't hold her unraveling weaves because she couldn't see them). It's psychological.

Seeker
12-28-2011, 06:27 PM
Right, but if a blind person can be trained to channel (meaning that they can weave flows) then sight isn't necessary to detect flows. So, blindfolding the Aes Sedai won't do any good. They'll still be able to sense what Verin is weaving.

Personally, I think this was just an error because it's never mentioned by any of three sisters in Towers of Midnight. Probably a minor slip on Brandon's part as it feels like he wrote the scenes in question.

Seeker
12-28-2011, 06:35 PM
Does anyone know exactly what Nacelle experienced when she created a weave that allowed her to detect flows of saidin? Might this weave have been known during the Age of Legends - doubtful since Rand seems to think of it as a new discovery - and if so, might that explain how Lanfear was able to counter Rand's attacks with such flawless efficiency when they fought on the docs in Cairhien?

confused at birth
12-28-2011, 08:26 PM
Does anybody have a good theory why Verin didn't share Traveling with Joline, Edesina and Teslyn?


because she didnt want to?

maybe they didnt see her make the gateway, you normally cant learn to do something from looking at it complete.
you look at a good cake but that doesnt tell you how to bake it:D

Terez
12-29-2011, 12:50 AM
Yeah, Rand can follow a gateway by reading residues, but as we learned with Aviendha, that's a very rare Talent. You have to see the weave being made.
TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 23 - To Lose the Sun

Shalon would have given much to see how that weave was done, even if it had meant being near Cadsuane, but she had not been allowed into the stableyard until the gateway was complete, and seeing a sail spread on the yardarm did not teach you how to set a sail much less make one. All she knew was the name.

confused at birth
12-29-2011, 01:29 AM
So why did Elayne panic and try to destroy her gateway to hide it in from the Seanchan? she thought they might be able to figure out the basics from her leftovers







And if you ever drop half a cookie on the floor look at what you pick up before putting it in your mouth :eek:

Terez
12-29-2011, 01:57 AM
So why did Elayne panic and try to destroy her gateway to hide it in from the Seanchan? she thought they might be able to figure out the basics from her leftoversBecause she knew it was possible that one of the damane had the Talent for reading residues:


TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 6 - Threads


"Elayne," Aviendha began in a surprisingly anxious voice, and at the same time, Nynaeve said sharply, "Just what do you think you’re—"

There was only one way to stop it. Elayne plucked one of the discernible threads free of the weave; it wavered and flailed like a living tentacle; it fuzzed and spluttered, tiny fluffs of saidar breaking off and fading away. She had not noticed that when Aviendha unmade her weave, but she had only seen the tail of that, really. "Go on," she told Nynaeve. "I’ll wait for the rest until you are all out of sight." Nynaeve stared out, her jaw hanging. "It has to be done," Elayne sighed. "The Seanchan will be at the farm in hours, for sure. Even if they wait until tomorrow, what if one of the damane has the Talent to read residues? Nynaeve, I won’t give Traveling to the Seanchan. I won’t!"Of course, it's Elayne, and she's a little impulsive sometimes.

confused at birth
12-29-2011, 02:17 AM
Because she knew it was possible that one of the damane had the Talent for reading residues

which is fair enough if she thinks they already knew how to travel like when Aviendha was scared that one of the forsaken was watching them.

Rand can follow someone because he knows how to travel and the residues can tell him where to go but I doubt even he could have learned gateways from the residues

I always thought of it like running up to a DHD to get a gate address, you can find out where they went if you know how to use a gate but it cant help you help build a stargate (5 bucks says you cant guess what I am watching:D)


Of course, it's Elayne, and she's a little impulsive sometimes.

and it was pretty cool when it exploded, plus it made yet another way to have a group of half naked pretty women which seems to be a common theme for the series

David Selig
12-29-2011, 05:54 AM
Rand can follow someone because he knows how to travel and the residues can tell him where to go but I doubt even he could have learned gateways from the residues
Rand learned how to open a portal to enter TAR from Rahvin's residue IIRC, so it's possible.

I was wondering how long time has passed (in the books) between the start of tEotW and the end of ToM?
Steven Cooper's detailed timeline of the books can be found here - http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm .

GonzoTheGreat
12-29-2011, 06:29 AM
Rand learned how to open a portal to enter TAR from Rahvin's residue IIRC, so it's possible.
Not quite: he learned by copying what Ishamael had done in the Stone of Tear, then when he saw Rahvin's residue, he remembered and from then on could Travel too.

WinespringBrother
12-29-2011, 09:19 AM
Does anyone know exactly what Nacelle experienced when she created a weave that allowed her to detect flows of saidin? Might this weave have been known during the Age of Legends - doubtful since Rand seems to think of it as a new discovery - and if so, might that explain how Lanfear was able to counter Rand's attacks with such flawless efficiency when they fought on the docs in Cairhien?

Maybe this answers your 2nd question (though the quote is in direct reference to when Lanfear destroyed Rand's bonds of air:

Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands
Once more Lanfear took the decision from him. The impact of severed flows jolted him, and she dropped lightly to the floor. He stared as she stepped away from the wall, calmly brushing her skirts. "You can't do that," he gasped foolishly, and she smiled.

"I do not have to see a flow to unravel it, if I know what it is and where. You see, you have much to learn. I like you like this. You were always too stiff-necked and sure of yourself for comfort. It was always better when you were a bit uncertain of your footing. Are you forgetting Callandor, then?"

Rand later discussed this idea with Asmodean:

Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 32 - A Short Spear
“You have tried showing me how to shield a woman and failed. Try showing me how to avoid flows I cannot see, how to counter them.” Once Lanfear had sliced his weavings as neatly as with a knife. “Not easy, my Lord Dragon, without a woman to practice against.

Seeker
12-29-2011, 02:01 PM
Maybe this answers your 2nd question (though the quote is in direct reference to when Lanfear destroyed Rand's bonds of air:



Rand later discussed this idea with Asmodean:

Okay, so it's basically canon that you can slice flows based on knowing what they are (which you can tell from the effects) and that they are someplace between the object being effected and the weaver.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-30-2011, 12:23 PM
continuing elaboration = needed own thread