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View Full Version : Who I think will kill Padan Fain


LawnchairSoda
01-03-2012, 12:30 AM
I've just been thinking a bit recently that maybe Mat will end up killing Padan Fain. I know it seems like Rand will kill him, but I also felt that way about Couladin and Mat killed him. I believe that if Rand and Fain were to fight that Rand would just blink and shred Fain to pieces with the power, unless of course if Fain just snuck up and stabs him. Now if Mat ends up fighting him that would be a great fight. After all, they both still have the taint from the dagger still inside them. I could be wrong, but I think Mat still has a bit of that taint inside him? Also, didn't Fain have the Horn at some point? I know I'm stretching, but maybe he'd wanna kill Mat so he could blow it for himself? eh.....maybe, I don't know about that. But, doesn't Fain have an army of undead trollocs? So, an army of undead trollocs led by Fain attacking an army led by Mat along with the Heroes of the Horn. Zombies vs. Ghosts? Then they fight and Mat kills him, chops off his head like Couladin. Let me know what you think, pls :0

Lupusdeusest
01-03-2012, 12:51 AM
I believe it has been suggested before, although Fain isn't generally that prominent on the Who Kills Whom listings. Um. My brain hurts at the moment, otherwise I would pull up some examples.
You've asked for opinions, and I can't actually give you one. I'm torn even on what his fate might be - life, death, or Something Else (be it buttplug for Randland or what, sealing the anus of the DOP.)

Terez
01-03-2012, 03:11 AM
According to Siuan, the taint is completely gone, but one thing I have theorized before is that Mat might be immune to the dagger. I think it's shaping up for Fain vs Shaidar Haran, but whether or not Fain will survive it is kind of up in the air.

LawnchairSoda
01-04-2012, 12:55 AM
maybe Mat is immune to the dagger? great idea, didn't think of that

finnssss
01-04-2012, 02:07 AM
According to Siuan, the taint is completely gone, but one thing I have theorized before is that Mat might be immune to the dagger. I think it's shaping up for Fain vs Shaidar Haran, but whether or not Fain will survive it is kind of up in the air.


If anything has been set up, it's Perrin vs Fain.

Fain killed his entire family and the only witness left just happens to be in Perrin's army now.
Perrin's "mythology" is that of Justice. What's more Just than facing his family's killer?
Perrin's hammer burns shadow spawn with it's touch. Anyone wanna bet against it also doing the same to Mashadar?
Fain's "weapons" are illusion and Mashadar. Perrin's wolf senses see through the illusions, his hammer deals with Mashadar.

I do think the dagger will play a role with Shaidar Haran though, as in possibly infecting the DO through him/it but I doubt it will be in Fain's hands when it happens.

Terez
01-04-2012, 05:22 AM
Perrin and Fain might come across each other - like I said, it's up in the air as to whether Fain will survive the encounter with Shaidar Haran - but Fain's unique ability to control/torture Fades and his overwhelming desire to do anything he can to hurt the Dark One seems fundamental to Fain's role. We know he's going to Shayol Ghul to wait for Rand to come. It seems likely that Rand will die before he goes there. Fain will know when that happens, and it seems logical that he will find something in the near vicinity upon which to take out his frustration, and that seems unlikely to be Perrin. When Rand does go to Shayol Ghul, though, it's not unlikely that Perrin will be with him, or Mat for that matter. It's just unlikely that Fain won't have fulfilled his main purpose by that time, or at least the major part of it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2012, 06:59 AM
Perrin and Mat fighting Fain and Shaidar Haran?

finnssss
01-04-2012, 01:41 PM
Perrin and Fain might come across each other - like I said, it's up in the air as to whether Fain will survive the encounter with Shaidar Haran - but Fain's unique ability to control/torture Fades and his overwhelming desire to do anything he can to hurt the Dark One seems fundamental to Fain's role. We know he's going to Shayol Ghul to wait for Rand to come. It seems likely that Rand will die before he goes there. Fain will know when that happens, and it seems logical that he will find something in the near vicinity upon which to take out his frustration, and that seems unlikely to be Perrin. When Rand does go to Shayol Ghul, though, it's not unlikely that Perrin will be with him, or Mat for that matter. It's just unlikely that Fain won't have fulfilled his main purpose by that time, or at least the major part of it.

No I agree, the SL taint is going to play a big role at the end of the day but we don't need Fain for that to happen, just the dagger.
Some are suggesting that Mat might be immune to the taint now. Well, what about Rand? He's been cut by the damned thing and still lives. If anyone has some immunity, it's him.

Grig
01-04-2012, 02:43 PM
Well, what about Rand? He's been cut by the damned thing and still lives. If anyone has some immunity, it's him.

Rand only lives because Damer Flinn was able to isolate the taint and set it to fighting with the DO taint from the Ishywound. There's no reason to think Rand would have any sort of protection from the taint, as short of the Saidin barrier between him and the taint left by the dagger in the last attack, the taint was making quick work of killing him.

finnssss
01-04-2012, 03:40 PM
Rand only lives because Damer Flinn was able to isolate the taint and set it to fighting with the DO taint from the Ishywound. There's no reason to think Rand would have any sort of protection from the taint, as short of the Saidin barrier between him and the taint left by the dagger in the last attack, the taint was making quick work of killing him.

No, Rand lives because the DO's taint was fighting the SL taint.
Anyone else cut by that dagger died in seconds.
What Flinn did was wall both taints off together allowing Rand to regain consciousness and be able to function normally.

Grig
01-04-2012, 04:34 PM
No, Rand lives because the DO's taint was fighting the SL taint.
Anyone else cut by that dagger died in seconds.
What Flinn did was wall both taints off together allowing Rand to regain consciousness and be able to function normally.

Citation, please? Because until Damer walled them off, Rand was headed right to Death. The taints might have been fighting before then, but by all indications without the seal Rand's death was imminent despite that. The conflicting taints alone wasn't enough to prevent the SL taint from killing Rand.

eht slat meit
01-04-2012, 04:52 PM
No, Rand lives because the DO's taint was fighting the SL taint.
Anyone else cut by that dagger died in seconds.
What Flinn did was wall both taints off together allowing Rand to regain consciousness and be able to function normally.

I swear, every time I read about Rand's wound, it sounds like a metaphor for the Bore/DO's prison. Maybe that's going to be the end result for Gollum/Fain, falling into the Bore, to be eternally imprisoned alongside the DO?

finnssss
01-04-2012, 05:05 PM
Citation, please? Because until Damer walled them off, Rand was headed right to Death. The taints might have been fighting before then, but by all indications without the seal Rand's death was imminent despite that. The conflicting taints alone wasn't enough to prevent the SL taint from killing Rand.

Citation? Rand didn't die instantly like everyone else. What else do you need? Explain how that happens unless the DO's taint prevented it?
There was a battle going on between the two taints and that is what was killing Rand at that point. Flinn said as much in aCoS chptr 36.
He also says that he did not heal the wounds, just warded the two evils away together, separate from Rand.
He even goes so far as to say that maybe the two evils will kill each other off.

Zombie Sammael
01-04-2012, 05:13 PM
I swear, every time I read about Rand's wound, it sounds like a metaphor for the Bore/DO's prison. Maybe that's going to be the end result for Gollum/Fain, falling into the Bore, to be eternally imprisoned alongside the DO?

Sorry to keep doing this to you:

Q: (a takeoff on Leigh's review) I've seen this somewhere before : gollumgollumgollum
A: Fain will not end up like Gollum.

Q: Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
Brandon: No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, “Oh no he’s much crazier than that!” So I changed it accordingly.

As neat as the idea of Fain being trapped in the DO's prison or functioning as some sort of permanent seal seems, I doubt that's quite the solution, both because of these quotes, and because of the in-story metaphysics. When I say that second thing, what I mean is that the end of AMOL has to be a story of good triumphing over evil, and if Fain is in any way involved in sealing the DO's prison, then it's a story of evil triumphing over evil, and I think the fate of Shadar Logoth shows us that shouldn't happen. Even if Fain's just the mechanism, I worry that what the good guys would be doing would be making a bad situation ever worse by, over the course of many turnings of the Wheel, essentially "contributing" to the DO's evil by allowing him to eventually absorb the evil of SL and grow more powerful.

As to Rand's wound, in a way it seems like a gun that's already been fired. I'd also be rather disappointed if the means of sealing away the DO was quite so similar to the means of cleansing the taint. Unfortunately, that leaves me not really knowing quite what is up with Fain. Certainly he has a role to play, but I'm unsure of what that role might be.

finn
01-05-2012, 12:56 AM
As neat as the idea of Fain being trapped in the DO's prison or functioning as some sort of permanent seal seems, I doubt that's quite the solution, both because of these quotes, and because of the in-story metaphysics. When I say that second thing, what I mean is that the end of AMOL has to be a story of good triumphing over evil, and if Fain is in any way involved in sealing the DO's prison, then it's a story of evil triumphing over evil, and I think the fate of Shadar Logoth shows us that shouldn't happen. Even if Fain's just the mechanism, I worry that what the good guys would be doing would be making a bad situation ever worse by, over the course of many turnings of the Wheel, essentially "contributing" to the DO's evil by allowing him to eventually absorb the evil of SL and grow more powerful.

The metaphysics here could be that evil defeats itself (is self-defeating). If you look at the fate of Shadar Logoth, neither the city nor the DO's taint survived.

It goes back to Graedal's quote(ToM?) observing the principle about the Dark One being able to undo anything made by the Creator. Even cuendillar, which can withstand pattern-burning balefire, is ineffective. The only thing capable of withstanding and consuming his power is the evil of Shadar Logoth. The SL evil is a creation / reaction to the Dark One's own evil so it's not something he can easily undo. Fain who was distilled by the Dark One before Mordeth's attempt to consume him is a greater blend of the two evils than the dagger. Both evils were destroyed in the cleansing of Saidin and while Fain can turn Trollocs now, Myrdrraal who may be closer in essence to the dark one do not survive the attempt, so it's a good bet the two evils will eat at each other until neither remains.

Fain would be more like Wormtongue(turning on Saruman) than Gollum in that respect.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2012, 04:06 AM
Citation? Rand didn't die instantly like everyone else. What else do you need? Explain how that happens unless the DO's taint prevented it?
How about the fact that unlike those others, Rand was immediately helped by AS who used Healing on him?
First Cadsuane, followed less than a minute later by Samitsu:
"This," Samitsu said in a lecturing tone, lightly touching the scar, "seems like a cyst, but full of evil instead of pus. And this... " She drew the finger down the gash. "... seems full of a different evil." Suddenly she frowned at the Green standing over her, and her voice became sullen and defensive. "If I had the words, Cadsuane, I would use them. I have never seen the like. Never. But I will tell you this. I think if I had been one moment slower, perhaps if you had not tried first, he would be dead now. As it is... " With a sigh, the Yellow sister seemed to deflate, her face sagging. "As it is, I believe he will die."

maacaroni
01-05-2012, 06:03 AM
Fain is the buffer on the dark one's prison. I've consistently said it for years.

finnssss
01-05-2012, 02:38 PM
How about the fact that unlike those others, Rand was immediately helped by AS who used Healing on him?
First Cadsuane, followed less than a minute later by Samitsu:

It doesn't matter. Look at Kinsman, he was cut by the dagger and died before he could even take a single step.
By the time Rand took the hit and Cads took her first step towards him, he would of already been dead.
No one is capable of healing those wounds so all they were capable of doing was healing Rand so that he could survive the battle going on inside him a while longer.
Nothing else makes any sense and any doubts of why he still lives is cleared up by Flinn when he talks about how the two evils are fighting each other.
There is no other explanation.

Terez
01-05-2012, 02:48 PM
Oh, but there is. And it's a simple one. The older wound was enough to keep him alive for a very short time, but not so long that he didn't need help from Cadsuane and Samitsu and Flinn. Which is, of course, what Grig said in the first place.

Jemlin
01-05-2012, 02:59 PM
The metaphysics here could be that evil defeats itself (is self-defeating). If you look at the fate of Shadar Logoth, neither the city nor the DO's taint survived.

It goes back to Graedal's quote(ToM?) observing the principle about the Dark One being able to undo anything made by the Creator. Even cuendillar, which can withstand pattern-burning balefire, is ineffective. The only thing capable of withstanding and consuming his power is the evil of Shadar Logoth. The SL evil is a creation / reaction to the Dark One's own evil so it's not something he can easily undo. Fain who was distilled by the Dark One before Mordeth's attempt to consume him is a greater blend of the two evils than the dagger. Both evils were destroyed in the cleansing of Saidin and while Fain can turn Trollocs now, Myrdrraal who may be closer in essence to the dark one do not survive the attempt, so it's a good bet the two evils will eat at each other until neither remains.

Fain would be more like Wormtongue(turning on Saruman) than Gollum in that respect.

The evil from Shadar L. seems to directly oppose the Dark One's evil....but there is another opposition that is kinda new. Since Rand came down from the Mountain, he was not only able to reverse the taint and evil the D.O. had put in the world (turning the rotten apples whole again), but he also had new protection from the madness in his head, as well as some sort of ability to see those aligned with the D.O.

Personally, I think that new Creator based opposition is related to the whole "Belief and Order bring strength" theme that runs throughout the books. Like the sneaking "Other evil created to fight evil" of Shardar L...maybe there is a similar (yet a bit different) "Other good to aid Good" type.

Some weird combo of both to destroy the D.O.'s minions and then seal the bore?

finnssss
01-05-2012, 03:16 PM
Oh, but there is. And it's a simple one. The older wound was enough to keep him alive for a very short time, but not so long that he didn't need help from Cadsuane and Samitsu and Flinn. Which is, of course, what Grig said in the first place.

And what is so special about the older wound again?

And since neither Cads or Samitsu can actually heal either wound, what did they heal? They healed Rand.
Then when Flinn comes around, does he heal the wounds...nope. He's not capable of healing them either. So what does he do...he seals the evils from the two wounds away together and Rand gets better.

So just to sum up...the two evils are fighting each other in Rand's body and Rand is dieing.
The two evils are sealed away from Rand and now he's going to live.
Through cause and effect, what does logic dictate the answer to be?

Terez
01-05-2012, 03:22 PM
The evil from Shadar L. seems to directly oppose the Dark One's evil....but there is another opposition that is kinda new. Since Rand came down from the Mountain, he was not only able to reverse the taint and evil the D.O. had put in the world (turning the rotten apples whole again), but he also had new protection from the madness in his head, as well as some sort of ability to see those aligned with the D.O.1. The taint-reversing is a product of Rand's Fisher-King connection to the land. It wasn't the Dark One who was rotting the food before. It was Rand.

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

—From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 8002. I think he warded himself from the taint; the only other option seems to be a direct intervention by the Wheel, and seeing as how that rarely happens, and seeing as how Rand was holding more saidin at that time than anyone else ever had, it seems most likely he did it himself.

3. He probably doesn't have the ability to 'see' Darkfriends. He got a tip about Weiramon from Verin in the letter given to him by Tiana in the White Tower. He does have a pretty terrible effect on Darkfriends, which is why Weiramon couldn't meet his eyes, but Rand had to line them up and force that for him to be sure. Weiramon didn't react like Vram Torkumen and his wife, but likely their reaction had something to do with all the channeling Rand was doing. Some people think that means that Rand is channeling some sort of "Light Power", but more likely there is a mundane explanation for it, like many other things in the book.

Personally, I think that new Creator based opposition is related to the whole "Belief and Order bring strength" theme that runs throughout the books. Like the sneaking "Other evil created to fight evil" of Shardar L...maybe there is a similar (yet a bit different) "Other good to aid Good" type.Belief is for Rand—belief in the Dragon Reborn, which is at the moment lacking—and order has to do with the Seanchan, I think. The Seanchan ability to bring order is one of the more obvious themes in the books, and also Rand's inability to make the people believe in him.

"I am the Dragon Reborn," he whispered at the walls sometimes, and sometimes shouted at them. "I am the Dragon Reborn!" Silently and aloud he raged at those who opposed him, the blind fools who could not see and those who refused to see, for ambition or avarice or fear. He was the Dragon Reborn, the only hope of the world against the Dark One. And the Light help the world for it.

Zombie Sammael
01-05-2012, 03:53 PM
1. The taint-reversing is a product of Rand's Fisher-King connection to the land. It wasn't the Dark One who was rotting the food before. It was Rand.

Not sure of this assertion. The food isn't getting better anywhere other than where Rand physically is. Everywhere else it's still going wrong. I think the food rotting is the effect of the Dark One working on the world, and Rand is able to overcome it somehow. I'm of the school that says something unusual did happen to him on Dragonmount and that his various effects and abilities have altered, though to what extent is unclear. At least some of his "new" abilities are abilities we've seen before (I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Hadnan Kaderes in the Waste, "You've got to look at the eyes, Mat.").

If you were to suggest that Rand's pre-Dragonmount mindset was making the taint worse, I'd have to agree with that.

Terez
01-05-2012, 03:56 PM
Not sure of this assertion.Nevertheless, it's true. See the interviews.

Zombie Sammael
01-05-2012, 05:39 PM
Nevertheless, it's true. See the interviews.

I believe the quotes that you are referring to are specifically about Bandar Eban, not all food spoiling everywhere ever, and as I said, I think it's likely that Rand's mental state was causing the rot to be worse there; the interviews confirm this. What they don't say is that the food spoilage as early as Winter's Heart was caused by Rand's deteriorating mental state. Every barrel of food opened being rotten was, no doubt, a function of Rand's mental state in Bandar Eban interfering with his ta'veren effect. The failure of Saidar wards around food earlier on in the series had neither proximity to Rand nor the extreme emotional state to account for them. Like I said, making it worse, not making it outright.

Grig
01-05-2012, 06:12 PM
And what is so special about the older wound again?

If I read correctly, Terez was trying to allow for your initial point in implying that the older would slowed the Shadow Logoth taint a slight bit. However, based on the quote provided above, Rand still would have died within bare seconds without some form of One Power intervention. So obviously "the taints fighting" was not enough to keep him alive by itself.

So just to sum up...the two evils are fighting each other in Rand's body and Rand is dieing.
The two evils are sealed away from Rand and now he's going to live.
Through cause and effect, what does logic dictate the answer to be?

The obvious answer would be that the evils aren't killing him because they're sealed away. What point are you trying to make, again? It sounds like you're agreeing with me. Perhaps if you could do a similar listing where the evils are not sealed away from Rand, you could attribute his survival purely to their fighting instead of the fact that they're sealed away from him. But your example as given clearly gives the effect of "Rand doesn't die" with the cause of "Flinn sealed the two evils away from being able to affect him". So are you now agreeing with us, or are you just confused as to what point you're making?

eht slat meit
01-05-2012, 06:12 PM
Not sure of this assertion. The food isn't getting better anywhere other than where Rand physically is. Everywhere else it's still going wrong. I think the food rotting is the effect of the Dark One working on the world, and Rand is able to overcome it somehow. I'm of the school that says something unusual did happen to him on Dragonmount and that his various effects and abilities have altered, though to what extent is unclear. At least some of his "new" abilities are abilities we've seen before (I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Hadnan Kaderes in the Waste, "You've got to look at the eyes, Mat.").

If you were to suggest that Rand's pre-Dragonmount mindset was making the taint worse, I'd have to agree with that.

I'm not sure that I would call this "gaining new abilities" so much as realizing abilities that were already there. To put it in terms of Ishamael's game, the greater part of the series has had Rand running directionless, fulfilling prophecies while only fomenting his special brand of shadow-tainted ta'veren-induced chaos, but not actually moving forwards the Last Battle.

Only with the cleansing of the taint and restoration of that balance did things seem to change - Rand now attains access to greater power, the potential to realize more of whatever it is that makes him the Dragon and at that point Shadow began to take control (in the sense of puppet strings) tipping things entirely the wrong direction. Then back to the light again with VoG.

In fact, I'm not sure I'd call this whole "bringing the land to life" thing necessarily a new ability (the grain was chance, and looked to be a jab at Schroedinger's Cat), but more of a natural juxtaposition of Rand's Power and his role as the vessel of the Light. A special form of photosynthesis, perhaps.

Zombie Sammael
01-05-2012, 07:05 PM
I'm not sure that I would call this "gaining new abilities" so much as realizing abilities that were already there. To put it in terms of Ishamael's game, the greater part of the series has had Rand running directionless, fulfilling prophecies while only fomenting his special brand of shadow-tainted ta'veren-induced chaos, but not actually moving forwards the Last Battle.

Yeah, I placed it in inverted commas because I don't really think any of these abilities are new, only more pronounced.

Terez
01-05-2012, 07:06 PM
I believe the quotes that you are referring to are specifically about Bandar EbanNope.

Zombie Sammael
01-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Nope.

Perhaps you'd like to actually post the quote you're think of, then, as I've done a search myself and I have nothing that specifically says the corruption of the food is solely down to Rand's mental state and nothing else. There are one or two things that could be interpreted that way, but I don't think they're actually referring to that.

Terez
01-05-2012, 07:50 PM
Perhaps you'd like to actually post the quote you're think of, then, as I've done a search myself and I have nothing that specifically says the corruption of the food is solely down to Rand's mental state and nothing else. There are one or two things that could be interpreted that way, but I don't think they're actually referring to that.You can interpret it however you want; makes no difference to me. But you're wrong. Brandon said that the food was spoiling because of the Fisher King connection to the land, and it was not in reference to Bandar Eban. He did say that ta'veren was a factor at Bandar Eban, but he did not say it was a factor in the general spoilage.

finnssss
01-05-2012, 08:03 PM
If I read correctly, Terez was trying to allow for your initial point in implying that the older would slowed the Shadow Logoth taint a slight bit. However, based on the quote provided above, Rand still would have died within bare seconds without some form of One Power intervention. So obviously "the taints fighting" was not enough to keep him alive by itself.



The obvious answer would be that the evils aren't killing him because they're sealed away. What point are you trying to make, again? It sounds like you're agreeing with me. Perhaps if you could do a similar listing where the evils are not sealed away from Rand, you could attribute his survival purely to their fighting instead of the fact that they're sealed away from him. But your example as given clearly gives the effect of "Rand doesn't die" with the cause of "Flinn sealed the two evils away from being able to affect him". So are you now agreeing with us, or are you just confused as to what point you're making?

I'm not confused at all.
The DO's taint stopped the SL taint from killing him instantly. Even if, as Sami said, if she or even Cads was a little slower, that he might of died, there was still no evidence what so ever that he was going to die like Kinsman or anyone else the dagger had cut previously.
Something prevented that from happening and it wasn't Cads or Sami. It was the DO's taint as we find out from Flinn and of course from the cleansing of the male half of the source, they battle and cancel each other out.
Cads and Sami prevented Rand from dieing from the initial shock but he definitely wasn't out of the woods yet.
This is a classic circumstance of any major injury. Surviving the initial shock is as important and can be even more important than the actual injury.
Either way, he makes it through the initial shock but is not looking good.
Then Flinn comes along and seals away what is killing him now, namely the battle between the two taints.
Rand gets better.

There really isn't another logical way of interpreting it where every event and resolution is taken into account.
If you re-read the chapter and really think about, it makes by far the most sense and is the only explanation that fits everything that happened.

eht slat meit
01-05-2012, 08:07 PM
You can interpret it however you want; makes no difference to me. But you're wrong. Brandon said that the food was spoiling because of the Fisher King connection to the land, and it was not in reference to Bandar Eban. He did say that ta'veren was a factor at Bandar Eban, but he did not say it was a factor in the general spoilage.

Yeah, that's two entirely separate issues, as far as I can tell.

1. Spoilage, that general condition occurring throughout Randland, would seem to have something to do with the FK-Rand being in play by the Shadow. The opposite of a world where Rand makes green things grow about him is exactly that... a world rife with spoilage. Indirectly, that is indeed an effect of the Shadow, but more directly, Rand's and his connection to the land were responsible.

Which is why he's such a valuable piece to be corrupted.

2. Bandar Eban - This incident appears to be little more than his ta'veren nature twisting chance in Rand's favor to give him what he needed. Not returning life to already spoiled food, but altering the chance that the remaining bags would have consumable food in them. His "abilities" wouldn't work under those circumstances unless it's possible to "un"spoil food.

suttree
01-05-2012, 11:23 PM
Perhaps you'd like to actually post the quote you're think of, then, as I've done a search myself and I have nothing that specifically says the corruption of the food is solely down to Rand's mental state and nothing else. There are one or two things that could be interpreted that way, but I don't think they're actually referring to that.

The Fisher King connection is pretty clear on that, the darker Rand got the worse the spoilage became...

GonzoTheGreat
01-06-2012, 04:06 AM
It doesn't matter. Look at Kinsman, he was cut by the dagger and died before he could even take a single step.
When did that happen?
Abruptly something stung his right arm, and he stared down in consternation at the bloodstain spreading on his cloak. It did not feel like a deep cut, and no cutpurse would have slashed his forearm.
"He belongs to me," a man whispered behind him, but when he turned, there was only the crowd in the street, all going about their business. The few who noticed the dark stain on his cloak looked away quickly. In this place, no one wanted to be associated with even the smallest violence. They were good at ignoring what they did not want to see.
The wound throbbed, burning more than it had at first. Releasing his cloak to the wind, Kisman pressed his left hand over the bloody slash in his sleeve. His arm felt swollen to his touch, and hot. Suddenly he stared in horror at his right hand, stared as it turned as black and bloated as a week-old corpse.
Frantically he began to run, pushing people out of his way, knocking them down. He did not know what was happening to him, how it had been done, but he was sure of the result. Unless he could get out of the city, beyond the lake, up into the hills. He had a chance, then. A horse. He needed a horse! He had to have a chance. He had been promised he would live forever! All he could see were people afoot, and they were scattering before his charge. He thought he heard Guardsmen's rattles, but it might have been the blood pounding in his ears. Everything was going dark. His face hit something hard, and he knew he had fallen. His last thought was that one of the Chosen had decided to punish him, but for what, he could not have said.
Seems quite a few steps he could still take before that one he couldn't, I would say.

Which, of course, shows that my analysis (well, Samitsu's, if you want to be picky) was correct.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 06:07 AM
You can interpret it however you want; makes no difference to me. But you're wrong. Brandon said that the food was spoiling because of the Fisher King connection to the land, and it was not in reference to Bandar Eban. He did say that ta'veren was a factor at Bandar Eban, but he did not say it was a factor in the general spoilage.

I think that this is the quote you're referring to, but since you've not posted it yourself I can't be sure:



Q: Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand’s temperament?
A: Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the “land and the Dragon are one.”

At any rate, that is the only one that doesn't specifically mention Bandar Eban and the spoilage we saw there, which we know is different from the general spoilage, because Rand was later able to find several barrels of unspoiled grain.

This answer amounts to little more than a slightly more detailed "RAFO". It certainly doesn't say Rand exclusively is responsible for all the spoilage ever. No doubt the land and the Dragon are connected, but Rand's weakness and darkening mental state are as much to do with the Dark One than anything else. Why, then, couldn't the Dark One do something to the land that would have a negative effect on Rand, especially when we've seen him do various other things that have nothing at all to do with Rand? There is no reason to think the spoilage anywhere other than Bandar Eban was not an effect of the Dark One. If it was all to do with Rand, I expect food would have started to spoil in TFOH if not earlier. Instead, we have Saidar wards failing in WH in places that are nowhere near Rand. How can that possibly be to do with him except in the most abstract symbolic sense? It's the Dark One's work.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 06:15 AM
RE: The food spoilage discussion:

I'm going to agree with the mindset that the food spoilage is mostly the Dark One's touch on the land and through Dark Rand's Ta'veren nature is made exponentially worse by his presence. Now that we have Messiah Rand his presence in an area is affecting a kind of balance, which leads to the whole duality theme that is all over the books.

My reasoning behind the Dark One being responsible for the death of the land is this:


Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold,
each one perfectly ripe.
"I am going mad," Almen said, turning back to the man.
"It's not you who is mad, friend," the stranger said. "But the entire world. Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

Terez
01-06-2012, 07:21 AM
This answer amounts to little more than a slightly more detailed "RAFO".Only if you're a dumbass.


There is no reason to think the spoilage anywhere other than Bandar Eban was not an effect of the Dark One.
Plenty of reasons, starting with the Eye.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 07:37 AM
Only if you're a dumbass.



Plenty of reasons, starting with the Eye.

Terez, either post what you're actually saying is your theory, or don't bother replying. I get tired of your games, and so does everyone else.

fdsaf3
01-06-2012, 08:02 AM
Terez, either post what you're actually saying is your theory, or don't bother replying. I get tired of your games, and so does everyone else.

I'm with ZS. The guidelines given to newbies on the forums are to search the interview database and use book references to back up their arguments. ZS has done his due diligence by posting what he thought was the relevant quote to this discussion.

If there's a reason to say that his interpretation of the interview quotes is wrong, say it. Merely asserting "you're wrong" or "you're an idiot if you believe that" without explaining why is offensive and a waste of time.

Maybe you want to aspire to be more like Marie. Every post I see her make in the WOT board is full of quotes (most often because she's correcting someone like me who has no idea what they are talking about).

Terez
01-06-2012, 08:10 AM
Terez, either post what you're actually saying is your theory, or don't bother replying. I get tired of your games, and so does everyone else.1. Speak for yourself.


2. I'm not playing any games. What Brandon has said on the subject is clear.

Terez
01-06-2012, 08:11 AM
If there's a reason to say that his interpretation of the interview quotes is wrong, say it. Merely asserting "you're wrong" or "you're an idiot if you believe that" without explaining why is offensive and a waste of time.Sorry, but taking a quote that clearly says one thing and saying 'it doesn't say that' just makes you an idiot.

fdsaf3
01-06-2012, 08:41 AM
I'm sorry if I'm getting in the middle of something that I shouldn't. I didn't mean to take sides. All I meant in my previous post is that I trust ZS (who seems a reasonable fellow to me) to do his homework. In this case, that means scouring the interview database for relevant quotes. If, as you say, Brandon has been quite clear on the subject, then ZS should have found the relevant quotes.

My point, not meant to offend or inflame, was that either ZS missed the relevant quotes, the quotes aren't in the database and therefore aren't obvious, or they are ambiguous without the context of other discussions which have been had around the subject. I personally don't know since this isn't a subject I have done much investigation on.

Again, sorry if I stepped on any toes. I was just encouraging constructive conversation and information sharing. After all, we're all on the same team.

edit:

fourth option:

ZS willfully twisted the relevant quotes on this issue to support a theory that's not accurate. Again, I don't think this is the case. At least not in a malicious sense. I don't get the sense that ZS is antagonistic or "trolling" or anything like that.

Terez
01-06-2012, 08:57 AM
I'm sorry if I'm getting in the middle of something that I shouldn't. I didn't mean to take sides. All I meant in my previous post is that I trust ZS (who seems a reasonable fellow to me) to do his homework. In this case, that means scouring the interview database for relevant quotes. If, as you say, Brandon has been quite clear on the subject, then ZS should have found the relevant quotes.And he did. And the quote says exactly what I said it said. He's trying to say that Brandon didn't say what he said. Or didn't mean it. :rolleyes:

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 09:21 AM
Sorry, but taking a quote that clearly says one thing and saying 'it doesn't say that' just makes you an idiot.

That's the thing though: the quote doesn't say what you think it says. Here it is again, just in case you've forgotten what it did say:

Q: Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand’s temperament?
A: Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the “land and the Dragon are one.”

First of all, this is the only quote of this nature that is not specifically about Bandar Eban, which appears to be an example of Rand's ta'veren nature twisting probability rather than having a causative relationship with rotting food, as he was later able to open barrels of grain which were not spoiled.

Now, the answer Brandon gives us is that we should look at prophecies that mention the land and the Dragon being one, and also look into Fisher King "prophecies" (he probably means "sources"). As I said, a slightly more detailed RAFO, but of course, reading and finding out does show us that there are references suggesting that Rand is tied and connected to the land.

What it does not say is that the Dark One is not responsible for any of the corruption whatsoever. For a start, the Dark One has made many attempts to injure Rand and drive him to despair, so even if it is all down to Rand, the DO could still be said to be causative. But, if the Dragon is one with the land and you're a metaphysical being like the DO, one way to injure the Dragon would also be to corrupt the Land. We know he was doing that: there have been bubbles of evil, ghosts, disappearing villages, and people going crazy and attacking each other at nightfall, among other things. Corrupting the food supply would also be another way of doing that, and it's entirely reasonable to suppose, even without any other evidence, that the DO could do that, since he is evidently able to exert a considerable influence on the pattern. We have examples of food corrupting well after Rand's mental state began to deteriorate, but also well before it got to a point where his ta'veren influence was altering the probabilities to be in favour of solely negative outcomes.

However, even leaving aside all the other evidence, we have this quote, which Dajoran posted before (but I will post it again, just in case you're not paying attention):


Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold,
each one perfectly ripe.
"I am going mad," Almen said, turning back to the man.
"It's not you who is mad, friend," the stranger said. "But the entire world. Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

Here, Rand himself says that the Dark One's touch is corrupting the apples, and that his presence is able to stop that. The books are not an interview where the author is asked to say something quickly and may give an answer which is taken down inaccurately; they are something which he and several others have spent at very least several weeks thinking about, writing, and editing, based on the extensive notes of Robert Jordan. As such, they can be thought of as far more authoritative than the "word of God" interviews, which we have to complement the books, not contradict them. Rand says it is the Dark One corrupting the apples; from that it is at least reasonable to infer, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that the Dark One is responsible for other food corruptions. Rand's mental state might well be making it worse, I grant you, but the source is the DO. Why? Because if the Dragon is one with the land, then the land is one with the Dragon, and to score a hit on one is to also damage the other.

On a personal note, Terez, I have always known you to encourage people to look at the interviews, post quotes, and back up their arguments with sources as far as possible. I think it's very disingenuous of you not to bother doing that yourself. I expect your goal was to encourage people to look for themselves, but I'm afraid you are defending a position which is contrary to what the books actually say, and interpreting an interview quote to say something other than what it says.

Terez
01-06-2012, 09:23 AM
That's the thing though: the quote doesn't say what you think it says. Here it is again, just in case you've forgotten what it did say:It says exactly what I said it says. Unlike you, I can read. Go back and actually read the prophecy Brandon referenced—the one I quoted several posts ago—and maybe you'll get it.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 09:25 AM
I'm sorry, I have to butt in here because... just because...

Brandon said that the food was spoiling because of the Fisher King connection to the land

Can be dervived from but is not what is said here:

Q: Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand’s temperament?
A: Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the “land and the Dragon are one.”

This could be the correct interpretation of what Brandon said - but it is not the only way to read that statement. It's not rare for us to receive an Aes Sedai answer from Team Jordan. Which, I would agree with ZS, is akin to a RAFO - as what I take from this answer is that Brandon is giving a clue of where to look towards for an answer; he could have just said "Yes, Land bad 'cause Rand bad."

Also, if anyone paid attention to the quote I put above Rand talks about blocking the taint on the land from "His touch" (in reference to someone there not in the scene frame). Now unless Rand has split his consiousness (again) into a Messiah and a Wounded King, it is clear he is refering to a third party affecting the land.


EDIT: Whooopsie - I type too slow -_-

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 09:29 AM
I'm sorry if I'm getting in the middle of something that I shouldn't. I didn't mean to take sides. All I meant in my previous post is that I trust ZS (who seems a reasonable fellow to me) to do his homework. In this case, that means scouring the interview database for relevant quotes. If, as you say, Brandon has been quite clear on the subject, then ZS should have found the relevant quotes.

My point, not meant to offend or inflame, was that either ZS missed the relevant quotes, the quotes aren't in the database and therefore aren't obvious, or they are ambiguous without the context of other discussions which have been had around the subject. I personally don't know since this isn't a subject I have done much investigation on.

Again, sorry if I stepped on any toes. I was just encouraging constructive conversation and information sharing. After all, we're all on the same team.

edit:

fourth option:

ZS willfully twisted the relevant quotes on this issue to support a theory that's not accurate. Again, I don't think this is the case. At least not in a malicious sense. I don't get the sense that ZS is antagonistic or "trolling" or anything like that.

I can confirm that I am not trolling, although Terez might be, with a rather loose definition of the term "trolling". It's normally rather more obvious when I am.

I am not trying to twist Brandon's words, but as a relatively neutral participant, I'd ask you to say whether you think the quote which I've posted twice now says what Terez thinks it says, or whether it's slightly more ambiguous.

Terez
01-06-2012, 09:31 AM
Rand most likely doesn't understand his connection to the land. He's given no indication of it, beyond a dream he had about it in TEOTW, so I'll trust what Brandon says over what Rand thinks. And there's no room whatsoever for Brandon's answer to be an Aes Sedai answer. If it is supposed to be one, it's the dumbest Aes Sedai answer ever, and 100% misleading. Besides, all of Brandon's other comments on the subject take the connection for granted. Another one, for the slow:

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Tim Kington (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75026#poststop)

QUESTION
How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

BRANDON SANDERSON
We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

You have to be really obtuse to assume that he's giving an Aes Sedai answer in the other one just because he doesn't mention Bandar Eban and therefore his quote doesn't fit your theory. :rolleyes:

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 09:37 AM
[Edited away for being a terrible post]

ZS's reply below is far better.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 09:52 AM
It says exactly what I said it says. Unlike you, I can read. Go back and actually read the prophecy Brandon referenced—the one I quoted several posts ago—and maybe you'll get it.

Let's not throw around accusations about who can and can't read, since it appears to be your tunnel vision that's causing the problems here, not my reading comprehension. I'm the one arguing for a more open interpretation; you seem to have to think in only one way about things.

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

—From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800

(it normally helps to state where your quotes are coming from so that others can also check them out)

It actually helps us here a bit more to focus on what this isn't saying. What it doesn't say is "the Dragon Reborn's mental state is causing the corruption of food and the Dark One has nothing to do with it". What it does say is that the Dragon (Reborn, I should point out, though interviews also mention LTT) is one with the land, and somehow that fact is preventing good things from growing and people being healthy. It would help us to know what the sentence prior to the first one in this prophecy was, but at the start of ACOS, that would have been a spoiler, because in TOM, this happens:


Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold,
each one perfectly ripe.
"I am going mad," Almen said, turning back to the man.
"It's not you who is mad, friend," the stranger said. "But the entire world. Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

There it is again! That quote where Rand says outright that the DO is causing the corruption! Can you read it, Terez, or are you having some difficulties in that area? Good things are growing, and they appear to be healthy, and Rand tells us that they couldn't do that before because of "his" influence. There is no other logical candidate for the identity of "his" than the Dark One. It's not LTT who is "his", because at the end of TGS, LTT is merged with Rand, so how would Rand's presence keep a part of himself at bay. Neither is it Moridin, because Moridin is linked to Rand, so you'd think Rand's presence would make any effect he was exerting more pronounced, not less. It simply has to be the Dark One!

But if Rand's mental state was the sole cause of the rot, then why is it still happening after he's fine? Why does he have to actually physically be present in Bunt's orchard in order to restore the apples? Answer: it's not Rand alone, it's the touch of the Dark One. Dark Rand was making it worse, and whaddyaknow, the prophecy says that! When the "soul of fire remembers love" good things start growing and things start being healthy again, but it doesn't stop the food from rotting in the first place if the ol' heart of stone isn't actually physically present himself.

Here's another quote. I hope Terez can read things that are inside quote tags, as I was starting to think that her inability to do so might explain a lot.

"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

Now, this quote contains a lot of imagery. First of all, it says the Dark One's laying his hand upon the world*. It says women are going to be weeping, and men are going to be quailing, all of which has come to pass. It says the nations of the earth are going to be rent like rotting cloth. That's some interesting imagery right there, because although it obviously refers to the political strife caused by the rise of the Dragon empire and the return of the Seanchan, the word "rotting" is powerfully evocative, and takes us back to rotting food and spoiled grain. Nothing to make women weep and men quail quite like the prospect they might starve to death, is there? So here we have a prophecy which actually says that the Dark One is going to be laying his hand upon the world, and cause "rotting" whilst doing so.

There is more than one way to read everything. What you're trying to do, Terez, is force a football through a plug hole to fit a very narrow interpretation, which is neither borne out by the interview quotes, nor the books. It is not me who appears to be having reading problems.

*Of man. He's apparently not bothered about the world of woman, lucky ladies.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Rand most likely doesn't understand his connection to the land. He's given no indication of it, beyond a dream he had about it in TEOTW, so I'll trust what Brandon says over what Rand thinks. And there's no room whatsoever for Brandon's answer to be an Aes Sedai answer. If it is supposed to be one, it's the dumbest Aes Sedai answer ever, and 100% misleading. Besides, all of Brandon's other comments on the subject take the connection for granted. Another one, for the slow:


You have to be really obtuse to assume that he's giving an Aes Sedai answer in the other one just because he doesn't mention Bandar Eban and therefore his quote doesn't fit your theory. :rolleyes:

No, because this is specifically about Bandar Eban, which is a slightly different phenomenon. As I've said several times, in Bandar Eban Rand's poor mental state was causing the chance of opening a barrel of spoiled grain to be greatly increased. After Dragonmount, it caused the chance of opening a barrel of high quality grain to be greatly increased. But even leaving aside that in Bandar Eban, Rand was not causing grain to become spoiled, what Dajoran said still holds true: if there is a sickness in the land, then there is one in Rand, as vice versa.

I really think you're looking at that quote from the wrong direction. You're assuming that the grain became spoiled because of Rand in Bandar Eban, but it didn't. It was already spoiled; Rand's proximity increased the chances of finding the spoiled stuff. The wounds in Rand's side very much represent the corruption in the world, and they were caused by the Dark One, as was his taint-madness; as long as those two things remain, the Dark One is able to corrupt the land, and this includes causing food to rot. Rand is not the sole cause of the rotting food.

fdsaf3
01-06-2012, 10:25 AM
Because if the Dragon is one with the land, then the land is one with the Dragon, and to score a hit on one is to also damage the other.

Now, this is an interesting thought.

If the land is one with the dragon and the dragon is one with the land, we can represent this in mathematical terms with a true equivalence relationship, i.e. Rand(dragon) = land.

The Dark One influenced the seasons being stuck prior to the Bowl of Winds being used, but I'm not sure weather is the same thing as "the land". If we use a more literal interpretation and posit that "the land" was touched by the Dark One, then it *should* work that rotting food caused Rand's dark attitude, not only the other way around as we have been discussing.

This might be obvious to casual readers, but for me it's kind of a "woah" moment.

Rand is not causing the food to rot.

Ah, but here I disagree. I thought this was an argument about whether Rand was the sole cause of food rotting. I took it for granted we all agreed that Rand's attitude was causing the food to rot. I mean, that's pretty well-established right? Something tickles at my memory about the Dark One being involved in some way, but Rand accelerated/expanded the rotting process. Could be wrong, as I said it's merely a funny tickle in my memory. Either way, ZS, I do believe stating "Rand is not causing the food to rot [at least prior to his Dragonmount revelations]" is incorrect. Sorry dude.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 10:36 AM
Ah, but here I disagree. I thought this was an argument about whether Rand was the sole cause of food rotting. I took it for granted we all agreed that Rand's attitude was causing the food to rot. I mean, that's pretty well-established right? Something tickles at my memory about the Dark One being involved in some way, but Rand accelerated/expanded the rotting process. Could be wrong, as I said it's merely a funny tickle in my memory. Either way, ZS, I do believe stating "Rand is not causing the food to rot [at least prior to his Dragonmount revelations]" is incorrect. Sorry dude.

If we take that Rand was causing the food to rot prior to VoG - then his range was infinite - we have Perrin and his Weevil grain - various ladies and their spoiled tea etc.
All around Randland we were hearing reports that food spoilage was everywhere.


Post-VoG why is this not the opposite - after effecting such a huge range, why can he only force his influence on an orchard?

EDIT: And I'm not going to post this again - but the quote in ZS and my previous posts concerning Almen and Rand in the orchard.

This quote points out that Rand is affecting an influence against something - and it couldn't be himself.

GonzoTheGreat
01-06-2012, 10:40 AM
He is still being made ever sicker by the DO, but now he can fight back in limited ways.

Of course, earlier on, Perrin (and Mat too, I think) could also provide localised decreases in deterioration. That's one reason why so many people joined up with Perrin: around him things were not as bad they were elsewhere.

fdsaf3
01-06-2012, 10:43 AM
Tentative suggestion: maybe it's a longevity thing? I mean, there's a lag between when Rand's personality started shifting and reports of food spoiling right? So it would make sense that after his mindset gets "healed" (for lack of a better term) the land doesn't just spring back into being fine and dandy again.

Just a thought.

Now, this is usually the point (when I post something saying "just a thought") that a Hero comes in with a quote from the books and/or RJ/Brandon that directly contradicts what I'm thinking. It's the equivalent of them saying "No! Bad fdsaf3! read the books and interview database before you open your mouth!" :D

Edit:

And the other ta'veren were able to limit/halt the negative effects of food spoiling. That's why both randomly had people joining up with them when neither wanted to be a leader of men.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 10:45 AM
He is still being made ever sicker by the DO, but now he can fight back in limited ways.

Of course, earlier on, Perrin (and Mat too, I think) could also provide localised decreases in deterioration. That's one reason why so many people joined up with Perrin: around him things were not as bad they were elsewhere.

I think that this is a whole other mess, in that, it is to do with Mat and Perrin being linked to Rand in a way that hasn't been completely explained as of yet. This is just more evidence to that fact.

(In the way that when Min see's them all together and the whole 'fireflys fighting the shadow' viewing - mixed with the Ta'veren spy-cam's they have on each other.)

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 10:52 AM
Ah, but here I disagree. I thought this was an argument about whether Rand was the sole cause of food rotting. I took it for granted we all agreed that Rand's attitude was causing the food to rot. I mean, that's pretty well-established right? Something tickles at my memory about the Dark One being involved in some way, but Rand accelerated/expanded the rotting process. Could be wrong, as I said it's merely a funny tickle in my memory. Either way, ZS, I do believe stating "Rand is not causing the food to rot [at least prior to his Dragonmount revelations]" is incorrect. Sorry dude.

You are right, that was too bold a statement. My excuse is that I was using the argument style from Way Of Kings. Bonus points to whoever tells me what it was called.

If we take that Rand was causing the food to rot prior to VoG - then his range was infinite - we have Perrin and his Weevil grain - various ladies and their spoiled tea etc.
All around Randland we were hearing reports that food spoilage was everywhere.


Post-VoG why is this not the opposite - after effecting such a huge range, why can he only force his influence on an orchard?

EDIT: And I'm not going to post this again - but the quote in ZS and my previous posts concerning Almen and Rand in the orchard.

This quote points out that Rand is affecting an influence against something - and it couldn't be himself.

Exactly, and this is why post-Semirhage but pre-DM he was making an already deteriorating situation worse. It was pretty much explicitly shown that he was altering the probabilities towards bad things happening.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 10:53 AM
Tentative suggestion: maybe it's a longevity thing? I mean, there's a lag between when Rand's personality started shifting and reports of food spoiling right? So it would make sense that after his mindset gets "healed" (for lack of a better term) the land doesn't just spring back into being fine and dandy again.

Just a thought.

Now, this is usually the point (when I post something saying "just a thought") that a Hero comes in with a quote from the books and/or RJ/Brandon that directly contradicts what I'm thinking. It's the equivalent of them saying "No! Bad fdsaf3! read the books and interview database before you open your mouth!" :D

Edit:

And the other ta'veren were able to limit/halt the negative effects of food spoiling. That's why both randomly had people joining up with them when neither wanted to be a leader of men.

Well, my response to that would be the now-infamous Bunt scene, which shows that immediately after VOG he was able to counteract the rotting, just as immediately before he was making it worse, so a time delay doesn't seem to apply.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Tentative suggestion: maybe it's a longevity thing? I mean, there's a lag between when Rand's personality started shifting and reports of food spoiling right? So it would make sense that after his mindset gets "healed" (for lack of a better term) the land doesn't just spring back into being fine and dandy again.

This could of course be true, and is an very valid point against my argument.

Now, this is usually the point (when I post something saying "just a thought") that a Hero comes in with a quote from the books and/or RJ/Brandon that directly contradicts what I'm thinking. It's the equivalent of them saying "No! Bad fdsaf3! read the books and interview database before you open your mouth!" :D

Last time I use this quote ever:


Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold,
each one perfectly ripe.
"I am going mad," Almen said, turning back to the man.
"It's not you who is mad, friend," the stranger said. "But the entire world. Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

I believe that Rand is making a conscious effort here to keep something at bay - he is Rand Sedai now a 400+ year old soul who has been through this before - he has seen this before and knows how to halt it's spread - as well as knowing that there is a limit to this type of land healing as he can only hold it off "for a time".

He keeps referencing 'him' and 'his'. Rand knows what he is about here. This isn't just a case of a farmboy seeing things going good around him and assuming he is having a mini landwar with Shai'tan. This is the Dragon armed with his knowledge that made him Tamrylin and gave him his third name finally utilizing all the power at his command.

eht slat meit
01-06-2012, 11:26 AM
It was pretty much explicitly shown that he was altering the probabilities towards bad things happening.

I think that -this- is where the major point of departure comes in; you're ascribing the bad things happening to Rand's ta'veren nature, rather than his specific role as a HoTH: Champion of the Light. The two, as I understand it, are not one and the same, and I see the Connection-to-the-Land Abilities as a part of that latter role. He's a lot of things, and you have to draw lines between those roles, I think, to understand where one begins and another ends.

Understand that since Rand has this link to the land, whenever he is "in play" by the DO, things get worse, yes, but that is specific to -Rand-. There are only two places of significance that the DO can act... the Blight, specifically SG, and through his minions throughout the world. Perhaps also the weather, though he clearly doesn't have enough control over it to stop a bunch of channelers with an *angreal from changing it back to normal.

Increasing freedom is allowing him to spread his influence beyond those two mediums with isolated bubbles of evil that increase in number the further he is freed. However, it should be noted that these bubbles have acted in exactly that fashion - isolated incidents that gravitate towards specific places.

With his mortal minions, and his limited influence to spread fear and chaos, as well as his presence to help seed more of the poisonous Blight, that's already more than enough to get the ball rolling.

Now, add in the Fisher King Prophecy (One with the Land) from the KC that BS mentioned, and things go from bad to worse. The land itself was already in a state of deteriorating from the weather (which also causes spoilage) from other events, but when Rand is put in play by the Shadow, things go from bad to worse. The prophecy isn't very explicit in the time frame, only giving an upper limit of VoG, but I think that if we look back over Rand's history, taking into consideration his attitude that he is a Weapon, then that means the Shadow has had control of the Dragon for quite awhile now.

I mention that to address a point that has been raised: Okay, so Rand is ZEN Rand now, post-VOG, he's got his groove, so why isn't the world all good again?

The answer to that, for me, would be because the DO -now- has enough influence over the land to actively work to ensure that it stays the way Rand made it, and much the way the DO used to only be able to extend its poisonous presence directly to the area around it (Blight), Rand has the same limitation.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 12:07 PM
I think that -this- is where the major point of departure comes in; you're ascribing the bad things happening to Rand's ta'veren nature, rather than his specific role as a HoTH: Champion of the Light. The two, as I understand it, are not one and the same, and I see the Connection-to-the-Land Abilities as a part of that latter role. He's a lot of things, and you have to draw lines between those roles, I think, to understand where one begins and another ends.

Understand that since Rand has this link to the land, whenever he is "in play" by the DO, things get worse, yes, but that is specific to -Rand-. There are only two places of significance that the DO can act... the Blight, specifically SG, and through his minions throughout the world. Perhaps also the weather, though he clearly doesn't have enough control over it to stop a bunch of channelers with an *angreal from changing it back to normal.

Increasing freedom is allowing him to spread his influence beyond those two mediums with isolated bubbles of evil that increase in number the further he is freed. However, it should be noted that these bubbles have acted in exactly that fashion - isolated incidents that gravitate towards specific places.

With his mortal minions, and his limited influence to spread fear and chaos, as well as his presence to help seed more of the poisonous Blight, that's already more than enough to get the ball rolling.

Now, add in the Fisher King Prophecy (One with the Land) from the KC that BS mentioned, and things go from bad to worse. The land itself was already in a state of deteriorating from the weather (which also causes spoilage) from other events, but when Rand is put in play by the Shadow, things go from bad to worse. The prophecy isn't very explicit in the time frame, only giving an upper limit of VoG, but I think that if we look back over Rand's history, taking into consideration his attitude that he is a Weapon, then that means the Shadow has had control of the Dragon for quite awhile now.

I mention that to address a point that has been raised: Okay, so Rand is ZEN Rand now, post-VOG, he's got his groove, so why isn't the world all good again?

The answer to that, for me, would be because the DO -now- has enough influence over the land to actively work to ensure that it stays the way Rand made it, and much the way the DO used to only be able to extend its poisonous presence directly to the area around it (Blight), Rand has the same limitation.

Not quite, although I can see how it would come across that way. Basically, things like the seasons (it is seasons rather than just weather; the DO hasn't, for instance, made it snow constantly in Tear yet), the ghosts, the night-madness, all have little or nothing to do with Rand and yet the DO was still able to cause them. Same with bubbles of evil, though those appear to be direct attacks against ta'veren, so far, and I'm not sure if the other effects can be describes as NOT the same or similar to bubbles of evil. My suggestion is that if the DO had managed to have Rand killed in his cradle, he'd still at this stage be doing his best to corrupt the food, and that the severity of Rand's wounds, his taint-induced madness, and his depression, are simply making things worse. The "theory" part, if there is one, is the idea that the DO might be trying to attack Rand via attacking the land at the same time as attacking the land via Rand, since they are one. I think that pretty much aligns with what everyone except Terez (and perhaps Gonzo) has been saying thus far.

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 12:09 PM
Forgive my brevity, but I'm typing this out on my phone while I'm on the train.

But in saying that the Dark One can touch the weather we can suggest he can touch other things also. To dismiss it because a bunch of channellers corrected this touch is moot when it was a bunch of channellers who locked him away 3000 years ago.

This does not mean he cannot touch the weather again, but why do that if you are going to get thwarted. Maybe if there was an agriculture ter'angreal a bunch of channellers could fix the land also?

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Forgive my brevity, but I'm typing this out on my phone while I'm on the train.

But in saying that the Dark One can touch the weather we can suggest he can touch other things also. To dismiss it because a bunch of channellers corrected this touch is moot when it was a bunch of channellers who locked him away 3000 years ago.

This does not mean he cannot touch the weather again, but why do that if you are going to get thwarted. Maybe if there was an agriculture ter'angreal a bunch of channellers could fix the land also?

Or maybe Rand is the agricultural ter'angreal. :eek:

Dajoran
01-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Or maybe Rand is the agricultural ter'angreal. :eek:

If that where the answer all along Elayne would be oh so pleased - she could just make two copies of Rand (inferior 'cause she's like that) and give them to Aviendha and Min!

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 12:58 PM
If that where the answer all along Elayne would be oh so pleased - she could just make two copies of Rand (inferior 'cause she's like that) and give them to Aviendha and Min!

Were I the thread originator, I would close it at this point. As it is, I can't even rep you, because apparently I have to spread it around first. I don't see what my sex life has to do with the rep system, but as we're now (apparently) discussing Elayne's, perhaps it makes sense. Anyway, you win the thread.

Marie Curie 7
01-06-2012, 03:41 PM
Maybe you want to aspire to be more like Marie. Every post I see her make in the WOT board is full of quotes (most often because she's correcting someone like me who has no idea what they are talking about).

Heh. Terez has been, and still is, my Wheel of Time mentor, so to speak. My posting style, the use of quotes from the books and interviews part of it, comes directly from her influence. She is far better at it than I am, and is a true Quotemistress.

Marie Curie 7
01-06-2012, 03:46 PM
No, because this is specifically about Bandar Eban, which is a slightly different phenomenon. As I've said several times, in Bandar Eban Rand's poor mental state was causing the chance of opening a barrel of spoiled grain to be greatly increased. After Dragonmount, it caused the chance of opening a barrel of high quality grain to be greatly increased. But even leaving aside that in Bandar Eban, Rand was not causing grain to become spoiled, what Dajoran said still holds true: if there is a sickness in the land, then there is one in Rand, as vice versa.

I really think you're looking at that quote from the wrong direction. You're assuming that the grain became spoiled because of Rand in Bandar Eban, but it didn't. It was already spoiled; Rand's proximity increased the chances of finding the spoiled stuff. The wounds in Rand's side very much represent the corruption in the world, and they were caused by the Dark One, as was his taint-madness; as long as those two things remain, the Dark One is able to corrupt the land, and this includes causing food to rot. Rand is not the sole cause of the rotting food.

First off, with regard to the Bandar Eban event, Brandon said explicitly that Rand caused the food spoilage there. He didn't just accelerate the spoilage in food that had already started to spoil (though certainly Rand being in very dark Rand mode at that point likely made the effect more pronounced). He caused it:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Roseville, MN 30 October 2009 - jharoldson reporting

I . . . asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

In addition, you seem to be conflating the Fisher/ta'veren effects here. The 'twisting chance' effects of ta'veren are always 50/50, as we have seen throughout the books and as Brandon has reminded us:

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

Someone else asked if Rand's internal state of affairs was affecting the world around him. Brandon said there are two things going on – ta'veren and the Fisher King prophecy which says the Dragon is tied directly to the land. He says it seems to Rand that more bad stuff was happening in The Gathering Storm but that this could be either just Rand's perception or what is really going on. We should remember that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50 – an extra equal amount of good and bad going on. He would not tell us at this point whether there was really more bad stuff happening in The Gathering Storm or whether its Rand's perception as there was purposefully very few viewpoints from Rand himself in Towers of Midnight. Like the third book The Dragon Reborn, Towers of Midnight is meant to step away from Rand and view him from the viewpoints of others.

Zombie Sammael
01-06-2012, 04:31 PM
First off, with regard to the Bandar Eban event, Brandon said explicitly that Rand caused the food spoilage there. He didn't just accelerate the spoilage in food that had already started to spoil (though certainly Rand being in very dark Rand mode at that point likely made the effect more pronounced). He caused it:



In addition, you seem to be conflating the Fisher/ta'veren effects here. The 'twisting chance' effects of ta'veren are always 50/50, as we have seen throughout the books and as Brandon has reminded us:

Marie, allow me to reply to your quotes... with your quotes:



I . . . asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

What I read this as Brandon saying is that the food spoilage witnessed in Bandar Eban was as a result of a ta'veren effect. When you think about it, it had to have been; if he'd made the grain go bad, then the bit in TOM where he found good grain would not have worked. Rand even says as much:

"Peace, Iralin," Rand said softly. "It is not so bad as you think. He stepped forward and yanked free the tie on top of a sack. It fell to the side, and golden barley spilled from it across the floor of the hold, not a single speck of darkness on it. The barley looked as if it had just been harvested, each grain plump and full.
Millis gasped. "What did you do do to it?"
"Nothing," Rand said. "You merely opened the wrong sacks. The rest are all good."
"Merely..." Iralin said. "We happened to open the exact number of bad sacks without reaching one of the good ones? That's ridiculous."
"Not ridiculous," Rand said, laying his hand on Iralin's shoulder. "Simply implausible."

Now, earlier in the book we do have an example - Dajoran's quote - of Rand actually making food turn from rotten to good. He says he can only hold "him" (presumably the DO) off briefly and while he is present. As it is not his plan to remain in Bandar Eban, holding the DO off of that grain isn't going to work; it'd go bad again as soon as he left, and the starving people would be back to starving. So what's going on? Rand as good as tells us: when you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be true. It looks like Rand - having chosen light over dark on Dragonmount - now has access to a greater level of control over his ta'veren nature. Let's examine that with your second quote:



Someone else asked if Rand's internal state of affairs was affecting the world around him. Brandon said there are two things going on – ta'veren and the Fisher King prophecy which says the Dragon is tied directly to the land. He says it seems to Rand that more bad stuff was happening in The Gathering Storm but that this could be either just Rand's perception or what is really going on. We should remember that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50 – an extra equal amount of good and bad going on. He would not tell us at this point whether there was really more bad stuff happening in The Gathering Storm or whether its Rand's perception as there was purposefully very few viewpoints from Rand himself in Towers of Midnight. Like the third book The Dragon Reborn, Towers of Midnight is meant to step away from Rand and view him from the viewpoints of others.

You've interpreted this as Brandon saying ta'veren is always 50/50, but actually he was unwilling to go into whether or not Rand's state of mind was the root cause of the apparent change in probabilities - or whether he might just have been looking on the negative side. As an aside, from that we can infer that this is something which will come up in AMOL, as Brandon at least seems to be pretty cool about not RAFOing too much (unlike RJ). In any case, he says that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50. Something bad - like, say, a ta'veren turning severely towards a dark or evil mental state - might be able to have an impact on that. We know that human emotions can have a metaphysical impact within the world of WOT, because of what happened with Aridhol; unhealthy paranoia and hatred begat Mordeth's ghost, the taint of Shadar Logoth, and mashadar. Likewise, a sudden turn towards absolute good could have the effect of making good things more likely to happen. Note that I use qualifiers here; we haven't seen similar effects with Mat or Perrin because they're not as strongly ta'veren, but also because neither has turned strongly towards evil or to good (Perrin had a bit of a downer, but sorted himself out soon enough; Mat's been on a relatively even keel, though he'd deny it himself).

I'd also point out that the ta'veren effect actually is 50/50 (or appears that way); only spoiled grain was found before VOG, and only good grain found after. Rand appears to be influencing chance, but the pattern still requires balance. That's why Dark Rand was such a terrible prospect that there was a prophecy ordering him killed; he'd throw the system out of whack.

It's also the case that in neither quote - in no quote, in fact - does Brandon rule out or deny that the Dark One is causing food spoilage. He merely says that Rand is causing it. That doesn't mean that the Dark One is not working through Rand, or alternately that the Dark One is not working through the land.

Much has been made of the argument that we should trust Rand's instincts over the seals. I'm not so sure. But as Dajoran has pointed out, Rand now has over 400 years of AOL knowledge - much better quality information than is presently available even to the likes of Cadsuane or Verin - and I'd say we should at least trust to his instincts over his own powers.

Terez
01-06-2012, 09:23 PM
Heh. Terez has been, and still is, my Wheel of Time mentor, so to speak. My posting style, the use of quotes from the books and interviews part of it, comes directly from her influence. She is far better at it than I am, and is a true Quotemistress.I dunno if I am really better at it any more. And I'm definitely lazier these days. :D My mentor was Callandor. Between the three of us, we have been holding down the Quotemaster fort for about 10 years now. Of course, it doesn't help much when people can't read and/or are stupid.

fdsaf3
01-06-2012, 10:47 PM
Callandor intimidates me.

suttree
01-06-2012, 10:58 PM
Marie, allow me to
You've interpreted this as Brandon saying ta'veren is always 50/50,

Because that's pretty much what he says. You are spending a good deal of time trying to explain away why multiple BS quotes might not mean what he is saying fairly plainly...

eht slat meit
01-06-2012, 11:51 PM
But in saying that the Dark One can touch the weather we can suggest he can touch other things also.

To an extent, yes, that is true. However, he does not share Rand's connection to the land, and we know by text that it took more effort than just reaching out a hand to effect them to the extent he did.

He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased. ~ tPoD, ch2

It should be pointed out that weather and seasons, while influencing the land indirectly, are a byproduct of interaction of heat within and without the troposphere. Yeah, that's a google-lookup, and simplification to an extreme because it's not really my expertise, but heat generation isn't terribly precise. Risking bringing up another off-book debate entirely, but it's basically DO-induced warming. The scale involved makes it clear why that's a strain.

What this means is that while he might be able to touch other things and create effects that produce similar results to Rand's, that he can necessarily manipulate the land is not a given.

I'm not dismissing the idea necessarily, but I'd need to see more than the DO being able to touch the weather showing the ability to influence the land directly.


This does not mean he cannot touch the weather again, but why do that if you are going to get thwarted. Maybe if there was an agriculture ter'angreal a bunch of channellers could fix the land also?

Yeah, don't see any idea why he'd go to that strain of effort for no great benefit; it's a distraction from the coming battle. An agricultural sa'angreal is a nifty idea, and possible in terms of Randland, but I think only to a limited extent, as there is a crucial element for growth that is not reproduced by the five weaves of the OP: Light.

Hence, Rand's role.

Lupusdeusest
01-07-2012, 02:09 AM
Wouldn't an agricultural ter'angreal just be a Nym, though?

(And hasn't Rand been described as "unbalanced"? Trying not to get involved. Can we also tie in the darkness from TP channeling? A miasma or DO around him?)



(Edit: But we HAVE Light...)

Terez
01-07-2012, 02:13 AM
Callandor intimidates me.He intimidated me when I was a noob too. He's definitely a unique sort of person. I still talk at him on Facebook and/or chat sometimes.

finnssss
01-07-2012, 02:52 AM
Heh. Terez has been, and still is, my Wheel of Time mentor, so to speak. My posting style, the use of quotes from the books and interviews part of it, comes directly from her influence. She is far better at it than I am, and is a true Quotemistress.

Thankfully though, you only took the good out of Terez's "style", left the other crap on the side of the road and are much more respected for it.

Amazing how your points are listened to and get across to people so much better when there's no insulting or name calling going on eh :)

You're always a pleasure to read Marie, even if you're proving someone wrong or they don't agree with you on something.
True class.
Keep up the good work!

Terez
01-07-2012, 02:58 AM
Marie can be insulting when she wants to be. You just have to pay attention. ;)

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 04:55 AM
Because that's pretty much what he says. You are spending a good deal of time trying to explain away why multiple BS quotes might not mean what he is saying fairly plainly...

1. No it isn't. Read both the quote and my post.

2. Even if it is - which it isn't - the effect is still 50/50.

Marie can be insulting when she wants to be. You just have to pay attention. ;)

Marie cuts twice as deep as you ever have, Terez. You'll call someone an idiot for disagreeing with you. Marie will call someone an idiot and prove it to be factually true. ;)

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 05:01 AM
I'm not dismissing the idea necessarily, but I'd need to see more than the DO being able to touch the weather showing the ability to influence the land directly.

Ghosts, disappearing villages, bubbles of evil, and night time rioting are all examples of the DO being able to influence the world directly. In fact, we're starting to get to the point where you'd have to argue that the "land" (whatever that means) is specially protected somehow, perhaps by it's link with Rand. But the Dark One is able to influence Rand, in ways both subtle and overt, and therefore if Rand and the land are one, he must be able to influence both.

Terez
01-07-2012, 05:09 AM
Marie cuts twice as deep as you ever have, Terez. You'll call someone an idiot for disagreeing with you. Marie will call someone an idiot and prove it to be factually true. ;)Marie is a bit fresher at this than I am. She hasn't spent quite so many years (and posts) arguing with people who are both ignorant and fiercely opinionated. It's a bad combination. People like you who, instead of stopping to wonder if maybe there's a reason why Terez said x, immediately disagree and end up making yourself look like an idiot. And since you're stubborn, you continue to defend yourself. I've seen it happen before. You've even admitted as much, if I recall. I could prove it by digging up the post, wherever it is, and linking it, but like I said, I've been doing it for years, and it gets old.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 05:31 AM
Marie is a bit fresher at this than I am. She hasn't spent quite so many years (and posts) arguing with people who are both ignorant and fiercely opinionated. It's a bad combination. People like you who, instead of stopping to wonder if maybe there's a reason why Terez said x, immediately disagree and end up making yourself look like an idiot. And since you're stubborn, you continue to defend yourself. I've seen it happen before. You've even admitted as much, if I recall. I could prove it by digging up the post, wherever it is, and linking it, but like I said, I've been doing it for years, and it gets old.

If I had thought the quote you posted in the first place - oh, wait, you didn't post a quote, I did - had proved your point, I would have conceded. I'm pretty sure if you go and look you will find good examples of me doing just that. I'm belligerent, not stupid. In point of fact, I didn't think you'd got the proof you thought you had, and I think I've made a pretty damn good argument as to why. It's your own stubborn-ness leading you to ignore what are pretty good arguments against your interpretation of things.

None - not a single one - of these quotes reads: "The Dark One is not causing the rotting food, it is all down to Rand". Every single one is more ambiguous than that. You can read them in a very superficial way and assume Brandon is contradicting what is written in the books, or you can try to synthesize all the various different sources and come up with the right answer.

In the books we have examples of Rand saying the Dark One's causing the problem with food, and that it was twisted chance that caused the bad/good grain dichotomy in Bandar Eban. Your only recourse against that is to say Rand doesn't know what he's talking about - which just happens to fit in with a lot of your other theories - but in fact we have pretty good evidence to suggest that he does; namely, we know he has the memories of a 400 year old leader of AOL Aes Sedai.

To ignore the books is to ignore the primary source in favour of a secondary source. I don't know why you think that's a good idea, other than to shoehorn some of your own ideas into this.

Terez
01-07-2012, 06:04 AM
If I had thought the quote you posted in the first place - oh, wait, you didn't post a quote, I did - had proved your point, I would have conceded. I'm pretty sure if you go and look you will find good examples of me doing just that. I'm belligerent, not stupid. In point of fact, I didn't think you'd got the proof you thought you had, and I think I've made a pretty damn good argument as to why.You haven't. And you apparently weren't aware of any of the quotes in question when you first saw fit to blindly disagree with me just because you enjoy taking people on. People asked why the food was rotting. Brandon explained why. It's as simple as that, especially seeing as how it was foreshadowed way back in book 1. He's also hinted that the Dark One is not causing the Pattern to fall apart - it's balefire. And as RJ said, one of the themes of the books is that not everything you think you know is correct. The Dark One tainting food is one of those things. There's nothing in the books that suggests that he has anything to do with it. People believe it, including Rand, but what do they know? When Brandon says something from the omniscient perspective, it's quite different. He knows. And what he said is quite clear. If you want to suggest that he didn't actually say what he said, then you need to get a clearer answer out of him on Twitter. For now, you're just saying 'black is white'. It's stupid, and stubborn ignorant.

In the books we have examples of Rand saying the Dark One's causing the problem with food, and that it was twisted chance that caused the bad/good grain dichotomy in Bandar Eban. Your only recourse against that is to say Rand doesn't know what he's talking about - which just happens to fit in with a lot of your other theories - but in fact we have pretty good evidence to suggest that he does; namely, we know he has the memories of a 400 year old leader of AOL Aes Sedai.Lews Therin is not omniscient - far from it. There's no evidence that there was a problem with rotting food in the Age of Legends, so this is about as weak as it gets. RJ said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfXUgRwR-FU) this is one of the themes of the books. Sorry you don't like it.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 06:13 AM
You haven't. And you apparently weren't aware of any of the quotes in question when you first saw fit to blindly disagree with me just because you enjoy taking people on. People asked why the food was rotting. Brandon explained why. It's as simple as that, especially seeing as how it was foreshadowed way back in book 1. He's also hinted that the Dark One is not causing the Pattern to fall apart - it's balefire. And as RJ said, one of the themes of the books is that not everything you think you know is correct. The Dark One tainting food is one of those things. There's nothing in the books that suggests that he has anything to do with it. People believe it, including Rand, but what do they know? When Brandon says something from the omniscient perspective, it's quite different. He knows. And what he said is quite clear. If you want to suggest that he didn't actually say what he said, then you need to get a clearer answer out of him on Twitter. For now, you're just saying 'black is white'. It's stupid, and stubborn ignorant.

Lews Therin is not omniscient - far from it. There's no evidence that there was a problem with rotting food in the Age of Legends, so this is about as weak as it gets. RJ said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfXUgRwR-FU) this is one of the themes of the books. Sorry you don't like it.

I'm sorry you apparently don't like what is written in the books and prefer your own explanations. Show me the quote where Brandon says "The Dark One is not causing the rotting, it is all down to Rand and his connection with the land".


...


Stopped looking? Good, because you can't, because it doesn't exist. You are willing to ignore logic and reasoning to take on a frankly superficial level answers which are self-evidently designed to make the questioner think about the very themes you are talking about. Brandon's answers are not as clear cut as you'd like to think they are. Sorry, but things are not as simple as they seem - one of the themes of the series, as you say.

You are trying to insist up is down despite evidence to the contrary. That's what's stupid and stubborn. Lews Therin may not be omniscient, but I'll take him over what Terez thinks any day.

Terez
01-07-2012, 08:34 AM
I'm sorry you apparently don't like what is written in the books and prefer your own explanations. Show me the quote where Brandon says "The Dark One is not causing the rotting, it is all down to Rand and his connection with the land". 1. What is written in the books is in many cases subjective. Interview quotes are not.


2. I already provided the quotes. You're too stupid to understand them. I no longer care.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 08:39 AM
1. What is written in the books is in many cases subjective. Interview quotes are not.


2. I already provided the quotes. You're too stupid to understand them. I no longer care.

Well, I've made my arguments, and they're solid. You haven't managed to say anything other than "I think I'm right and you're an idiot for disagreeing", so we might as well leave it at that.

Terez
01-07-2012, 09:03 AM
Well, I've made my arguments, and they're solid.No, they're stupid.


You haven't managed to say anything other than
I don't have to say anything in this case. Brandon said it all. And the prophecies he referred to. Every single detail in the books backs up what he says, aside from the misguided notions of the characters who have no clue what's going on.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 09:25 AM
No, they're stupid.



I don't have to say anything in this case. Brandon said it all. And the prophecies he referred to. Every single detail in the books backs up what he says, aside from the misguided notions of the characters who have no clue what's going on.

Well, we'll see when AMOL comes out, won't we?

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-07-2012, 09:26 AM
at this point I think there is a standstill here. how 'bout agreeing to disagree and we can all move along ? :D

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 09:47 AM
at this point I think there is a standstill here. how 'bout agreeing to disagree and we can all move along ? :D

I think we'd actually done that. We're now playing "who gets the last word".

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2012, 09:48 AM
Are we allowed to do that?
“There is never peace with the Shadow.”

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-07-2012, 09:50 AM
I think we'd actually done that. We're now playing "who gets the last word".

Yes dear, that was clear to all of us. I was trying to step in and divert the thread rather than just closing it or deleting posts at this point. As I said, let's move along now. :p

eht slat meit
01-07-2012, 10:06 AM
Ghosts, disappearing villages, bubbles of evil, and night time rioting are all examples of the DO being able to influence the world directly. In fact, we're starting to get to the point where you'd have to argue that the "land" (whatever that means) is specially protected somehow, perhaps by it's link with Rand. But the Dark One is able to influence Rand, in ways both subtle and overt, and therefore if Rand and the land are one, he must be able to influence both.

The "world", a physical location within which people live, and the "land", the ecosystem upon which people and all other living things subsist, are two different things. Outside and inside, surface and internal Fundamentally different, because you can make one unlivable without necessarily killing the other.

It's not about the land being special, it's about there being a distinction between land and world.
More importantly, the difference between between what the DO an affect or not.

Ummmm, I think the words in play here are exogenic and endogenic. Outside influence versus inside. A bubble of evil is exogenic, spawning from "outside" (the DO in his prison). It can hurt, damage, kill, but the point is that it comes from without. The process of growth is endogenic, spawning from the land itself, and while it may be influenced, (heavily, and even to the point of nuclear winter) by outside sources, the process is natural.

So yes, the DO may influence the "land" indirectly through Rand, but I'd guess it only has the ability to directly touch the "world", that environment in they live to the most limited extent, and the effort would be more of a strain than what it was able to accomplish with seasons.

Again, The power to influence the world through outside forces such as seasons or Rand is not a small thing, and is enough to bring about complete extinction. But there is a differencew.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 10:29 AM
The "world", a physical location within which people live, and the "land", the ecosystem upon which people and all other living things subsist, are two different things. Outside and inside, surface and internal Fundamentally different, because you can make one unlivable without necessarily killing the other.

It's not about the land being special, it's about there being a distinction between land and world.
More importantly, the difference between between what the DO an affect or not.

Ummmm, I think the words in play here are exogenic and endogenic. Outside influence versus inside. A bubble of evil is exogenic, spawning from "outside" (the DO in his prison). It can hurt, damage, kill, but the point is that it comes from without. The process of growth is endogenic, spawning from the land itself, and while it may be influenced, (heavily, and even to the point of nuclear winter) by outside sources, the process is natural.

So yes, the DO may influence the "land" indirectly through Rand, but I'd guess it only has the ability to directly touch the "world", that environment in they live to the most limited extent, and the effort would be more of a strain than what it was able to accomplish with seasons.

Again, The power to influence the world through outside forces such as seasons or Rand is not a small thing, and is enough to bring about complete extinction. But there is a differencew.

I'm not sure. This reminds me a little of another... erm... discussion I had with Terez regarding her theory about the twice dawning day, that Rand's oneness with the land would cause time to reverse if he was balefired. As I recall, my argument there was similar to the one you're making here; Rand is one with the land, not the world or universe.

I can see how a bubble of evil definitely looks and sounds like an "outside" attack. The very idea of a bubble making contact with the pattern and going pop, unleashing havoc, sounds external. I have to say, I've never really liked the idea of the "bubble" in that sense; it seems to muck with the metaphysics, because it looks from another point of view as if the DO is trapped inside the four-dimensional pattern, rather than external to it. I guess the bubbles could be floating up through the bore, then popping as they fall back to the pattern, but I'm not sure if that explains how they seem to be attracted to ta'veren. The winds of chance blowing them in there direct, perhaps? Nevertheless, these are the words RJ used and I guess we have to stick with them. The bubbles always seemed deliberate to me, whether it was an attack on one of the tripod or the Aes Sedai, though.

In any case, other things like the disappearing towns, ghosts, and night-madness in Hinderstap don't seem directly attributable to an effect like the bubbles of evil. They are definitely direct effects on the world itself, as is the disruption of the seasons.

I think at the end of the day, I just don't see how Almen Bunt's apples can be down to Rand's mental state.

Terez
01-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Well, we'll see when AMOL comes out, won't we?You could always ask Brandon about it and we can see before then (or you can, since everyone else already sees). I don't expect it to be clarified any further in AMOL.

Callandor
01-07-2012, 11:22 AM
Now I know your name fdsaf3.

And you will pay....

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Now I know your name fdsaf3.

And you will pay....

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif
Welcome back.

suttree
01-07-2012, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry you apparently don't like what is written in the books and prefer your own explanations. Show me the quote where Brandon says "The Dark One is not causing the rotting, it is all down to Rand and his connection with the land".



We have been shown time and time again Rand doesn't know what he thinks he does. One of the central themes in the books is when coming from the characters "whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong".

Why would anyone need to provide what you ask above when we have such straightforward quotes already. Despite you repeating yourself BS quotes are fairly clear. They just happen to back up the Fisher aspects that we have practically been hammered over the head with throughout the series. So we have author quotes supporting an overwhelming amount of evidence from the text. To counter that you offer a throwaway line from TGS from an unreliable perspective.

Telling people to reread your posts isn't going to change all that. I for one have read them and found your position unpersuasive.

Marie Curie 7
01-07-2012, 11:45 AM
With regard to this comment:

I think at the end of the day, I just don't see how Almen Bunt's apples can be down to Rand's mental state.

Which also goes back to these comments:

Now, earlier in the book we do have an example - Dajoran's quote - of Rand actually making food turn from rotten to good. He says he can only hold "him" (presumably the DO) off briefly and while he is present. As it is not his plan to remain in Bandar Eban, holding the DO off of that grain isn't going to work; it'd go bad again as soon as he left, and the starving people would be back to starving. So what's going on? Rand as good as tells us: when you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be true. It looks like Rand - having chosen light over dark on Dragonmount - now has access to a greater level of control over his ta'veren nature.

I would suggest that you consider reading "Apples First" again. In that chapter, Rand does not make food turn from rotten to good. The apple trees had flowered and started to produce apples, albeit late. Then overnight, the little apples that were growing all withered and fell off the trees:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 1 – Apples First

The rows of trees were straight and perfectly spaced. Graeger-Almen's brother-in-law-always had been meticulous. But he was dead now, which was why Almen had come. The neat rows of trees continued on for spans and spans, carefully pruned, fertilized, and watered.

And during the night, every single one of them had shed their fruit. Tiny apples, barely as large as a man's thumb. Thousands of them. They'd shriveled during the night, then fallen. An entire crop, gone.

Then, the next day, Rand arrived, down from the slopes of Dragonmount, but he didn't turn the rotten apples into good apples. Those rotten ones melted away into the earth. Rather, new apples were made to grow on the trees, many more times a regular crop:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 1 – Apples First

He hesitated, then turned weary eyes toward the sky. Sunlight bathed his face. He gaped; it seemed so long since he'd seen pure sunlight. It shone down through a large break in the clouds, comforting, like the warmth of an oven baking a loaf of Adrinne's thick sourdough bread. Almen stood, raising a hand to shade his eyes. He took a deep, long breath, and smelled . . . apple blossoms? He spun with a start.

The apple trees were flowering.

That was plain ridiculous. He rubbed his eyes, but that didn't dispel the image. They were blooming, all of them, white flowers breaking out between the leaves. The flies buzzed into the air and zipped away on the wind. The dark bits of apple on the ground melted away, like wax before a flame. In seconds, there was nothing left of them, not even juice. The ground had absorbed them.

What was happening? Apple trees didn't blossom twice. Was he going mad?

And the new apples all grew and ripened during the brief time that Rand was there:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 1 – Apples First

"Yes," the lad said. Then he nodded toward the orchard. "Gather your people and collect those apples. They'll be needed in the days to come."

"The apples?" Almen said, turning. "But-" He froze. The trees were burgeoning with new, ripe red apples. The blossoms he'd seen earlier had fallen free, and blanketed the ground in white, like snow.

Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold, each one perfectly ripe.


The Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 11:54 AM
The Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.

Never did I argue against that.

suttree
01-07-2012, 12:12 PM
I think at the end of the day, I just don't see how Almen Bunt's apples can be down to Rand's mental state.

Really curious here. How could it possibly be down to anything else? It may be one of the more heavy handed scenes we have in the entire series concerning his pre and post VoG state.

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Really curious here. How could it possibly be down to anything else? It may be one of the more heavy handed scenes we have in the entire series concerning his pre and post VoG state.

Sorry - perhaps not the best way to put it. I don't see how it can be down to Rand's mental state that the apples rotted. Obviously the subsequent supply of good apples is down to his sudden mental upturn on DM.

fdsaf3
01-07-2012, 01:37 PM
Now I know your name fdsaf3.

And you will pay....

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

I remember reading post after post you used to make in the theory discussions on the old website, and (no offense to Terez or anyone else here) it always intimidated me how much you knew about the series and how forceful you were with your opinions. It's a scary combination.

But please tell me something other than my post caused you to come back here and post. :D

Welcome back!

Terez
01-07-2012, 01:58 PM
Sorry - perhaps not the best way to put it. I don't see how it can be down to Rand's mental state that the apples rotted.It's easy. There can be no health in us, nor can any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon...

Terez
01-07-2012, 02:00 PM
I remember reading post after post you used to make in the theory discussions on the old website, and (no offense to Terez or anyone else here) it always intimidated me how much you knew about the series and how forceful you were with your opinions. It's a scary combination.1. Ignorant + forceful is much scarier.

2. Why would that offend me?

Zombie Sammael
01-07-2012, 02:00 PM
It's easy. There can be no health in us, nor can any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon...

Terez, we've been over this. I'm going to respect the wishes of the other moderators and not keeping going over it until (a) the thread gets closed or (b) the topic is purged with fire and salt and we both end up deeply resenting one another.

AbbeyRoad
01-07-2012, 02:00 PM
I don't see how it can be down to Rand's mental state that the apples rotted. Obviously the subsequent supply of good apples is down to his sudden mental upturn on DM.
If his Dragonmount epiphany later caused the good apples to grow, then perhaps it logically follows that almost cracking the entire world like an egg could have caused some serious food spoilage?

Terez
01-07-2012, 02:02 PM
Terez, we've been over this.Indeed, and you still don't get it, despite the fact that it's simple and quite spelled out for you by multiple canon sources.

Lupusdeusest
01-07-2012, 04:25 PM
I'm getting an overwhelming urge to shout "NO U".

Terez
01-07-2012, 04:31 PM
It's fun isn't it?

fdsaf3
01-07-2012, 04:34 PM
I learned a long time ago to be respectful and deferential as much as possible. People on the internet have strangely prickly egos, and I didn't want anything I said to ruffle any feathers.

I figure it's probably better to be safe than sorry. I personally don't want to deal with angry or irritated Terez. :D

Terez
01-07-2012, 04:51 PM
So you're saying I intimidate you?

fdsaf3
01-07-2012, 05:49 PM
Duh.

eta- in the WoT discussion yes. Not so much in the non.

eht slat meit
01-07-2012, 08:16 PM
I can see how a bubble of evil definitely looks and sounds like an "outside" attack. The very idea of a bubble making contact with the pattern and going pop, unleashing havoc, sounds external. I have to say, I've never really liked the idea of the "bubble" in that sense; it seems to muck with the metaphysics, because it looks from another point of view as if the DO is trapped inside the four-dimensional pattern, rather than external to it. I guess the bubbles could be floating up through the bore, then popping as they fall back to the pattern, but I'm not sure if that explains how they seem to be attracted to ta'veren. The winds of chance blowing them in there direct, perhaps? Nevertheless, these are the words RJ used and I guess we have to stick with them. The bubbles always seemed deliberate to me, whether it was an attack on one of the tripod or the Aes Sedai, though.

I suspect that "bubbles of evil" is just the most apt term characters of Randland could come up with for something they don't understand, and something that is never completely explained. Is it some element of the DO itself, or an outpouring of the poisonous darkness it seems to radiate like that which constitutes the Blight? Don't know, lotta speculation. As far as the ta'veren draw of these Bubbles to themselves, I would probably theorize it to be a "canceling out" of sorts. Ta'veren makes the near impossible more likely, but Bubbles of "Evil" (tm) are the realization of something that should be otherwise impossible. If ta'veren aura acts as a balancing, then perhaps it works to neutralize those elements by drawing them to it. Not necessarily a matter of good versus evil, but a balance.

In any case, other things like the disappearing towns, ghosts, and night-madness in Hinderstap don't seem directly attributable to an effect like the bubbles of evil. They are definitely direct effects on the world itself, as is the disruption of the seasons.

True, but like I said: I differentiate between effects upon the world and effects upon the land. The land is a product of a real cycle of growth, decay, and a host of other natural phenomenon that someone like RJ, having some education in physics, would be familiar with. Outside disruptive elements can be added that affect an ecosystem, disrupt it even, but still not be any part of the land.

I might also note here that since the land is capable of renewing itself without the interference of men, other races, or even the DO itself, such a process, completely out of the -direct- touch of the DO, might be an anathema. If the Pattern is the souls upon the Age Lace, then perhaps the Age Lace is the land, and that is what the DO really wants access to? Motive speculation, of course.

I think at the end of the day, I just don't see how Almen Bunt's apples can be down to Rand's mental state.

It's all a process. What Rand becomes and what Rand does to the world around him is a result of the choices he makes, and those choices are influenced by his mental state. Rand is a person like any other, distinguished by things like the OP, HoTH and Dragon, but still just a person. He can choose the True Force (sorry, had to say it) or the Light. Both are part of him and both choices carry repercussions.

However, that said, all of these things are integral and calling his mental state the root cause seems like a huge oversimplification, when you consider that at least part of the cause is an active choice to use a weapon that he might never normally consider.

tsorovanmhael
01-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Ah, the days of flaming ignorant posters....
Anyway, back to the point of who will kill Padan Fain, everyone forgets that there is a character from the first book that was at SG and witnessed the evil there, plus is the perfect one to kill Fain....




Bela

Lupusdeusest
01-08-2012, 01:14 AM
Re the magnetism of bubbles to ta'veren - hasn't it been said that they are major intersections, raised points in the pattern if you will. A bubble rising from the DO's miasma and travelling along a thread rises with the terrain of the pattern along that thread and is thus more likely to get to a ta'veren when it bursts as all roads lead to ta'veren?
There has got to be a clearer way of typing that.

eht slat meit
01-08-2012, 01:57 AM
On a side note about things that are like the bubbles of evil, but not quite the same: Hinderstap, ghosts, death-traps and all that...

There's an analogy that Rand makes to Taim early on in their relationship about bubbles of evil that seems fitting:
“Think of them like bubbles that sometimes rise up in a bog, only they are rising from the Dark One as the seals weaken, and instead of rotten smells, they are full of...well, evil. They drift along the Pattern until they burst, and when they do, anything can happen. Anything. Your own reflection can leap out of the mirror and try to kill you. Believe me.”

It's an apt metaphor, but it's not complete. Imagine that you've a large living creature trapped at the bottom of that bog. Bubbles rise up from it every now and again, more as it frees itself from the mud that binds it. The bubbles that rise with its displacement not only increase in number, but in size, and there is an eruption from the water at the point that it completely freed from its trapped state and breaches the surface.

Between the two points, between the bubbles of evil and the final eruption that is the DOs escape, are things like Hinderstap, the walking dead, and ghosts.

Zombie Sammael
01-08-2012, 06:28 AM
I might also note here that since the land is capable of renewing itself without the interference of men, other races, or even the DO itself, such a process, completely out of the -direct- touch of the DO, might be an anathema. If the Pattern is the souls upon the Age Lace, then perhaps the Age Lace is the land, and that is what the DO really wants access to? Motive speculation, of course.

This thought occurred to me yesterday thinking about what you said regarding the Land: we know, in fact, that the DO can affect the Land, and has quite a large (continent-spanning) area of effect which is not restricted to his immediate vicinity: The Great Blight. Now, I had always seen the Blight as itself being reflected by the wound in Rand's side, and that and some of the other discussion in this thread has given me the notion that in fact the bore is more a wound that needs to be healed than a hole that needs to be plugged, much like the wound in Rand's side. I've never liked the idea of Fain as plug on the prison, but if he, too, represents a wound that needs healing - which, if Rand is one with the land, and I'm right about the Blight, he does - then I can see the finale being a lot more satisfying to me. I think I'll keep mulling this over. There may be a theory in there.

Ah, the days of flaming ignorant posters....
Anyway, back to the point of who will kill Padan Fain, everyone forgets that there is a character from the first book that was at SG and witnessed the evil there, plus is the perfect one to kill Fain....




Bela

I see you, Dark M'hael.

eht slat meit
01-08-2012, 10:09 AM
This thought occurred to me yesterday thinking about what you said regarding the Land: we know, in fact, that the DO can affect the Land, and has quite a large (continent-spanning) area of effect which is not restricted to his immediate vicinity: The Great Blight.

Yeah, realize that while I don't believe the DO can directly touch the land, he has more than enough of his miasma and influence to indirectly touch and corrupt it. To the same degree as if he were to take Rand as his champion? Probably not, if the indicators of trees in bloom in Min's viewing is as suggestive of the renewal of the Blight that I think it is. In short, the Blight could expand and continue expanding, but with the Wheel's corrective mechanism(s) in place, the Dragon could heal that at any time. Corrupt or break the mechanism, lasting victory is had.

Part of that effect, as I see it, is the DO's aforementioned miasma, the poisonous influence that it exudes merely by proximity. I'm guessing that this miasma is the source of the bubbles and toxic changes like Hinderstap and the walking dead, not the actual touch of the DO. I'm differentiating between touch & presence as a matter of will and intent.

I've never liked the idea of Fain as plug on the prison, but if he, too, represents a wound that needs healing - which, if Rand is one with the land, and I'm right about the Blight, he does - then I can see the finale being a lot more satisfying to me. I think I'll keep mulling this over. There may be a theory in there.


I think I might have given the perception that I believe Fain is a plug in the prison, and I do not believe that to be the case. The DO are the poison in the wound, the Blight the gangrenous skin around it, the Bore being the wound itself. To Heal that wound, you have to remove the poison and cut away the rot and rubble. The mistake LTT made was keeping the wound open and unhealed with the Seals, which are glorified bandaids.

My wilder theory, one that I find amusing if borderline loony, is that the DO and Dragon will both die, (-Last- Battle), but will both continue to live on... the Dragon as Hero, the Fain as the DO's replacement.

Zombie Sammael
01-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Yeah, realize that while I don't believe the DO can directly touch the land, he has more than enough of his miasma and influence to indirectly touch and corrupt it. To the same degree as if he were to take Rand as his champion? Probably not, if the indicators of trees in bloom in Min's viewing is as suggestive of the renewal of the Blight that I think it is. In short, the Blight could expand and continue expanding, but with the Wheel's corrective mechanism(s) in place, the Dragon could heal that at any time. Corrupt or break the mechanism, lasting victory is had.

Part of that effect, as I see it, is the DO's aforementioned miasma, the poisonous influence that it exudes merely by proximity. I'm guessing that this miasma is the source of the bubbles and toxic changes like Hinderstap and the walking dead, not the actual touch of the DO. I'm differentiating between touch & presence as a matter of will and intent.

I'm not sure I really understand your distinction. Certainly the DO wants the Blight to be like it is; for a start, it makes it very difficult for anyone who can't Travel to actually get to Shayol Ghul, which is an advantage in preventing any kind of attempt at a proper sealing (admittedly, reduced now that Travelling is back, but mitigating a risk, however minor, before). It also makes a great training ground for his armies, and a great way of killing and demoralising as many pesky humans as possible - even leading some to convert to his cause. So the Blight is obviously desirable to the DO, but you think it's not intentional? I'm not sure the DO actually has such a dividing line, by nature, between desire and intent. There is only one thing he desires which it hasn't achieved (freedom), and nothing he has done which isn't intentional. I think the Blight's a pretty solid example of how the DO can affect the land, and I'm not sure the divide between land and weather (in a wider sense) is anything other than convenient. The Blight reminds me of the prophecy quote, "Nor any good thing grow". Nothing that grows there is any good.

I think I might have given the perception that I believe Fain is a plug in the prison, and I do not believe that to be the case. The DO are the poison in the wound, the Blight the gangrenous skin around it, the Bore being the wound itself. To Heal that wound, you have to remove the poison and cut away the rot and rubble. The mistake LTT made was keeping the wound open and unhealed with the Seals, which are glorified bandaids.

My wilder theory, one that I find amusing if borderline loony, is that the DO and Dragon will both die, (-Last- Battle), but will both continue to live on... the Dragon as Hero, the Fain as the DO's replacement.

I've heard that before, and I'm afraid I dislike it. I'm not a fan of the idea that the DO is actually a mortal who respawns every time. Even though Fain has sidestepped the Pattern, he was still originally a part of it; the DO has no such thread. But this could very well be what happens, and I'm just a miserable sort who'll be disappointed whatever happens with Fain.

I think you and I are in complete agreement over the nature of the Bore as it stands.

eht slat meit
01-08-2012, 08:33 PM
I'm not sure I really understand your distinction. Certainly the DO wants the Blight to be like it is; for a start, it makes it very difficult for anyone who can't Travel to actually get to Shayol Ghul, which is an advantage in preventing any kind of attempt at a proper sealing (admittedly, reduced now that Travelling is back, but mitigating a risk, however minor, before). It also makes a great training ground for his armies, and a great way of killing and demoralising as many pesky humans as possible - even leading some to convert to his cause. So the Blight is obviously desirable to the DO, but you think it's not intentional?

I don't believe that the Blight's existence can be classified by intent; the area existed in the Age of Legends as the DO's base of power, and continues to exist today. I suspect it wasn't always as "Blighted" then as it is now, and that this corrupted state is a result of the DO's ongoing presence in the vicinity of it.

So yeah, at one point it might have just been the Mount Dhoom Playset, with Thakandor Accessories (*Thing Not Included) where all the important Forsaken (tm) gathered to plot against the world, but has since fallen into a ruined and completely corrupted state.

Sure, it was always a hive of scum and villainy, but it's quite a bit scummier now?

I'm not sure the DO actually has such a dividing line, by nature, between desire and intent. There is only one thing he desires which it hasn't achieved (freedom), and nothing he has done which isn't intentional.

Rand's corruption not included in his intent/desire and failure to achieve? Seems like he wants that... As for the freedom thing, if freedom matters more than all else, I have to wonder what was keeping DO inside between Beidomon's drilling of the Bore and the War of Power.

I think the Blight's a pretty solid example of how the DO can affect the land, and I'm not sure the divide between land and weather (in a wider sense) is anything other than convenient.

From my PoV, I consider that distinction integral to Rand's role as a Healer rather than a Weapon (theory, based on his statement to Egwene in ToM), and the main reason the DO wants to pull Rand over to his side or kill him. "Healing" the Land removes the Bore, which happens to be the DO's point of entry.

I've heard that before, and I'm afraid I dislike it. I'm not a fan of the idea that the DO is actually a mortal who respawns every time. Even though Fain has sidestepped the Pattern, he was still originally a part of it; the DO has no such thread.

I would consider the DO a sentient force rather than a creature mortal or immortal. As such, that which makes it the DO now could be destroyed, and be replaced by Fain... whose own brand of evil was fueled by the DO. He's been to SG and bathed in the presence of the DO. He might consider the DO an anathema, but he's still evil and the DO's part of him.

Like I said, nothing conclusive to back it up, just a pet theory.

Frenzy
01-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Ah, the days of flaming ignorant posters....

yah, good times. Us crusty old codgers lack the desire to throw down like we used to. It's good to see people using quotes again to back their theories up, though.

Anyway, back to the point of who will kill Padan Fain, everyone forgets that there is a character from the first book that was at SG and witnessed the evil there, plus is the perfect one to kill Fain....




Bela
Horse of the Dark aside, there are several characters who have been set up to kill Fain for various & sundry reasons: Matt & the dagger & horn, Perrin & his family, Rand & Emond's Field & the aCoS incident, Alviarin after the White Tower, hell even Sebben Balwer may have it in for him after Amador. But how would Fain's fate best serve the plot? Is he more likely to die, or to survive into the next age?

tsorovanmhael
01-09-2012, 01:51 AM
All kidding aside, i do think that it will be a showdown between Haran and Fain, with Rand acting as a 'mediator' We tend to forget that Fain the is essence of all non-Shadow evil in the world, including the Black Wind. Haran is the representation of the DO in physical form so a smackdown with the two is ideal.

Rand's role would be at the moment of triumph for the Shadow, meaning Haran will destroy Fain, Rand smashes the seals and closes the Bore. The Shadow will be so weakened with its fight against mankinds evil, aka Fain, that it would be the most opportune time for the Light to defeat the Shadow. Added that Rand's blood, ie double wound, is a fight between both of these evils and he is of the Light, makes the spilling of it on the rocks of SG and the sealing of the Bore a full circle of all the evil and light contained within the series.

Frenzy
01-09-2012, 02:17 AM
All kidding aside, i do think that it will be a showdown between Haran and Fain, with Rand acting as a 'mediator' We tend to forget that Fain the is essence of all non-Shadow evil in the world, including the Black Wind. Haran is the representation of the DO in physical form so a smackdown with the two is ideal.
i could see Fain attacking Shaidar Haran, but i don't see SH gunning for Fain. What would the GLotD gain from eliminating Fain? Especially at the cost?

Rand's role would be at the moment of triumph for the Shadow, meaning Haran will destroy Fain, Rand smashes the seals and closes the Bore. The Shadow will be so weakened with its fight against mankinds evil, aka Fain, that it would be the most opportune time for the Light to defeat the Shadow. Added that Rand's blood, ie double wound, is a fight between both of these evils and he is of the Light, makes the spilling of it on the rocks of SG and the sealing of the Bore a full circle of all the evil and light contained within the series.
Kind of cliché, bur it might even make it believable that Rand & the Light could defeat the ultimate big bad. Anything to avoid an ending like Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

Terez
01-09-2012, 03:08 AM
yah, good times. Us crusty old codgers lack the desire to throw down like we used to. It's good to see people using quotes again to back their theories up, though.There hasn't been any noticeable change in that since I joined.

Jemlin
01-10-2012, 01:58 PM
Pardon this if it has typos, I am replying from my phone after trying to read every post in here. I might have missed something, but I wanted to make a point.

In light of Terez's points that "Rand is One with the Land" (backed by his interpretation of BS's quotes), and in light of Zombie and others' point(s) that the Dark One's touch is still significant, I have an issue with assuming that the growth of the new apple blossoms & fruit, and the discovery of the healthy grain in the shipyard, come simply (or solely) from a change in mental state in Rand.

I am not disagreeing with the clear implication from BS's quotes that Rand and the Land are tied. That is very clear. What is still clear though is that Rand AND the Land have and continue to be affected by outside sources and they are tied. Rand and his connection to the Land/People is not occurring in a vacuum and in a closed cycle; a closed system that can not be affected by outside influences (i.e., the Dark One's touch).

For example, it is very clear that the wounds that Rand received from outside sources had very real effects on him, and therefore, the Land. It is also clear that the mental wounds he received in reaction to his hardships (the death of women around him, and other external experiences) had a very real effect on him, and therefore the land. It is also clear that outside forces can still affect the land; i.e., the Wondergirls were able to "fix" the weather pattern (I am unclear what exact effect this might have had on Rand in his connection because I do not have the book for that in front of me however).

What I am trying to say, in brief, is that I agree that Rand's mental & physical state has an affect on the land (and vice verse). I am also saying we shouldn't rule out (and my reading of BS's quotes doesn't rule out) that outside forces & experiences can still affect this symbiotic relationship. It doesn't appear to be a closed system; rather internal and external experiences become incorporated in it.

Terez
01-10-2012, 05:29 PM
Pardon this if it has typos, I am replying from my phone after trying to read every post in here. I might have missed something, but I wanted to make a point.

In light of Terez's points that "Rand is One with the Land" (backed by his interpretation of BS's quotes), and in light of Zombie and others' point(s) that the Dark One's touch is still significant, I have an issue with assuming that the growth of the new apple blossoms & fruit, and the discovery of the healthy grain in the shipyard, come simply (or solely) from a change in mental state in Rand.

I am not disagreeing with the clear implication from BS's quotes that Rand and the Land are tied. That is very clear. What is still clear though is that Rand AND the Land have and continue to be affected by outside sources and they are tied. Rand and his connection to the Land/People is not occurring in a vacuum and in a closed cycle; a closed system that can not be affected by outside influences (i.e., the Dark One's touch).Right, I don't think anyone ever implied that there weren't indirect influences through Rand. Just that the Dark One's powers aren't as direct as the reader was led to believe, the Fisher King bits and the balefire implication being big blows to those assumptions.

It is also clear that outside forces can still affect the land; i.e., the Wondergirls were able to "fix" the weather pattern (I am unclear what exact effect this might have had on Rand in his connection because I do not have the book for that in front of me however).But their Keepings were ineffective for food, which is specifically what we're talking about. It's hard to dispute that it was the Dark One affecting the weather since the unusual winter doesn't seem to have any rational explanation in Rand's pre-Winternight psyche, unless Egwene was really getting to him that bad. But Rand was no doubt the reason for the onset of spring and the recession of the Blight.

The Unreasoner
01-10-2012, 05:47 PM
Been busy as hell lately, but I saw the thread title and had to chime in:

No one will kill Padan Fain

ttul