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Cortar
01-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Knowing its properties, how does the Breaking make sense?

(1) Its not THAT hard to make. Egwene can make a lot of it pretty quickly, and there are quite a few (considering the population of Aes Sedia) who can be taught how to make it.

Thus, why weren't buildings made of it? I know it was a peaceful time but surely they had earthquakes and tornadoes and other such disasters. At the very least when the War of the Power got into full swing you would think they would make their cities into heartstone to help against attacks from the Shadow

Furthermore, why wasn't soldier's armor made of it? It sounds like it would make you invincible. If it was too heavy (which it doesn't sound like considering you could make it paper thin) then why weren't their tanks or shields used it with. Why couldn't you build a dome of it around a city (including the farmland) and make that city untouchable?

(2) Its indestructible.... So where is it? In the books its extremely rare but because its indestructibility and the wheel of time is endless, shouldn't there but an infinite amount of it laying around? At the very least there should be a lot more from the last Age around.

eht slat meit
01-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Perhaps they didn't have much use for the iron base required for cuendillar in that Age, or at least for iron in military context? It was the Age of Legends, after all, where people were noted for their accomplishments. Things like flying cars, bridges and towers that can survive for millenia, and *angreal so powerful the making of has been lost. An era of creation, not destruction, until the Shadow had its way.

As far as armor is concerned, I think it's necessary to consider that the AoL was likely not
highly advanced in military matters, and armor might have been less than priority for people who have learned how to kill simply by roasting someone to death with a fire weave (because cuendillar's not gonna prevent you from cooking). That's assuming they had even advanced in that enough to make armor from iron, or heck, that they had much in the way of armor at all. Swords would be an extension of this shortcoming of their era... didn't LTT and Ish reinvent it?

Lupusdeusest
01-10-2012, 06:06 PM
Re the building thing at least - do you really want a hundred-foot cuendillar building toppling over onto a busy street in one piece as its foundations had shaken loose? Sometimes it's better to build WITH the conditions as opposed to against them. Look at Japan's awesome earthquake engineering. IMO they'd continue to build flexing buildings regardless of whether diamond was as common as dust.
And besides, I'd say the AS were a little busy.

(Grumpy today.)

Lupusdeusest
01-10-2012, 06:08 PM
Also, if you have a search through the forums for cuendillar armor - it has been discussed before. Do you really want to wear armor without give? If you're struck hard enough, it'd just go into you, rather than making a small crumple-zone. Any force applied on the outside would just be transferred unreduced to you, although spread over the surface of the plate it hit.


As for cities - you would need air holes, light holes, and pollution release holes. It could work, but the efficacy of such a device would be greatly reduced with sufficient holes. Even the finest cuendillar would prove a challenge, assuming subsurface scattering/a little translucency. City-dwellers still need unfiltered sunlight, and depending on how translucent the cuendillar is, making iron foil that thin over such a large structure - even with enough non-iron scaffolding and iron bracing - would still be a challenge. It'd take a lot of workmen, a lot of forges, and a lot of AS (if only for OH&S) and the forges in particular would be rather busy, considering how peaceful Randland had been before the drilling.

fionwe1987
01-10-2012, 06:18 PM
There's also no guarantee that ability to make cuendillar is widespread. Egwene is a freak of sorts, her ability being extremely well developed, and the next best is Leane, who is well behind Egwene with this skill.

And given its indestructibility, and the AoLers knowledge of the Wheel, they may well have placed restrictions on its production.

As for buildings: it makes no sense to make a building that is completely made of iron. It may be indestructible, but it can be made to topple, as someone said, and heating it is going to be a beast. Not to mention that you'd basically have to create a cast in the shape of a building with holes for windows and doors, then fill it with iron, before you can convert to cuendillar. A completely pointless and time consuming exercise, given that the AoL AS could use other means to strengthen materials enough to make long lasting buildings.

Lupusdeusest
01-10-2012, 06:23 PM
And given its indestructibility, and the AoLers knowledge of the Wheel, they may well have placed restrictions on its production.

As for buildings: it makes no sense to make a building that is completely made of iron. It may be indestructible, but it can be made to topple, as someone said, and heating it is going to be a beast. Not to mention that you'd basically have to create a cast in the shape of a building with holes for windows and doors, then fill it with iron, before you can convert to cuendillar. A completely pointless and time consuming exercise, given that the AoL AS could use other means to strengthen materials enough to make long lasting buildings.

Hadn't even thought of the possibility of random domes everywhere. :o
Re the building - you'd also have to consider accessibility when you were making the ironwork. When I was little, we lived in a set of units where they had concreted in the pipes, making them almost impossible to get to. Each time one burst, they had to do the most fascinating maneuvers to actually stop the unit below from having rain in their home.

Cortar
01-11-2012, 02:23 AM
As far as armor is concerned, I think it's necessary to consider that the AoL was likely not
highly advanced in military matters, and armor might have been less than priority for people who have learned how to kill simply by roasting someone to death with a fire weave (because cuendillar's not gonna prevent you from cooking). That's assuming they had even advanced in that enough to make armor from iron, or heck, that they had much in the way of armor at all. Swords would be an extension of this shortcoming of their era... didn't LTT and Ish reinvent it?
Well I am talking about for fighting against people with shocklances and against Trollocs and Fades (all which were used extensively in the war.

Re the building thing at least - do you really want a hundred-foot cuendillar building toppling over onto a busy street in one piece as its foundations had shaken loose? Sometimes it's better to build WITH the conditions as opposed to against them. Look at Japan's awesome earthquake engineering. IMO they'd continue to build flexing buildings regardless of whether diamond was as common as dust.
And besides, I'd say the AS were a little busy.

(Grumpy today.)

Thats why you build the cast of the building with the foundations in the ground, there is no way it would fall over then. Even then almost every tall building that collapses does so downwards (which heartstone would never do)

Also, if you have a search through the forums for cuendillar armor - it has been discussed before. Do you really want to wear armor without give? If you're struck hard enough, it'd just go into you, rather than making a small crumple-zone. Any force applied on the outside would just be transferred unreduced to you, although spread over the surface of the plate it hit.
The force wouldn't be transferred to you in the slightest bit unless you are suggesting heartstone is elastic. But since we can assume it is not it would have to absorb all of the force given to it. Even then if it did transfer it to you, it would do so evenly throughout the armor and considering the force of a bullet it would probably not cause any harm at all


As for cities - you would need air holes, light holes, and pollution release holes. It could work, but the efficacy of such a device would be greatly reduced with sufficient holes. Even the finest cuendillar would prove a challenge, assuming subsurface scattering/a little translucency. City-dwellers still need unfiltered sunlight, and depending on how translucent the cuendillar is, making iron foil that thin over such a large structure - even with enough non-iron scaffolding and iron bracing - would still be a challenge. It'd take a lot of workmen, a lot of forges, and a lot of AS (if only for OH&S) and the forges in particular would be rather busy, considering how peaceful Randland had been before the drilling. I was suggesting these ideas for cities in the Age of Legends but when I look back it does seem a silly idea

There's also no guarantee that ability to make cuendillar is widespread. Egwene is a freak of sorts, her ability being extremely well developed, and the next best is Leane, who is well behind Egwene with this skill. [quote]

Egwene isn't that much of a freak if she were born in the Age of Legends, just really powerful, but certainly not the most. She also taught quite a few amount of people how to make hearstone, especially considering the number of AS in this age compared to the AoL

[quote]
And given its indestructibility, and the AoLers knowledge of the Wheel, they may well have placed restrictions on its production.

If this is true then why would they waste it on frivolous things like bowls? I digress, even if heartstone is made once an Age there would still be an infinite amount of heartstone objects in the world because of the nature of the wheel.

Weird Harold
01-11-2012, 03:17 AM
... even if heartstone is made once an Age there would still be an infinite amount of heartstone objects in the world because of the nature of the wheel.

Since the world isn't covered in Heartstone it is obvious that Cuendillar is NOT indestructible. The Seals are just one example of the untruth of Cuendillar's indestructibility.

Lupusdeusest
01-11-2012, 04:13 AM
The land was doing more than shaking - it was reforming. Think mudslides and new chasms opening, slopes changing, mountains rising, sinkholes forming, and all in an accelerated fashion. Yes, deep cuendillar foundations are good, but only if the ground remains around the foundations.


I hadn't actually thought of bullets. My mind was more on Trolloc maces and blunt-force things. Shocklances... fair enough.



(Maybe they were really special bowls? lol. Would post more but I've relapsed a bit and am having energy-processing-related excitement.
One possible note though: Maybe someone discovered the weave, used it, it became the New Rad Thing, everything was made of it (think how we use plastic nowadays) but then someone finally used their brain and realsied it wasn't all that crash hot for the world, folks.)

Zombie Sammael
01-11-2012, 04:20 AM
Couple of thoughts on "where does all the Cuendillar go":

1. Over the course of an immense cycle of time like I imagine the Wheel's cycle of seven ages to be, it just all gets buried really, really deep.

2. It weakens and breaks over time. There is some evidence that the seals have been doing this, although obviously they're exposed to the Dark One's touch. If you think that what the DO has been doing more generally is accelerating decay, however, then it's possible that this is simply what's going on with the seals.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 04:47 AM
Take a cuendillar bowl into a Stedding. Slam it with a big hammer. What happens?

Dajoran
01-11-2012, 04:56 AM
Take a cuendillar bowl into a Stedding. Slam it with a big hammer. What happens?

The Ogiers open the book of Translation which is a guide on how to divide by zero?

Lupusdeusest
01-11-2012, 07:47 AM
Maybe it gets pulled by a special heartstone magnet to a giant washing machine in the ground where it gets ground into sand by other pieces of cuendillar?
Is cuendillar even vulnerable to itself?

Zombie Sammael
01-11-2012, 07:48 AM
Maybe it gets pulled by a special heartstone magnet to a giant washing machine in the ground where it gets ground into sand by other pieces of cuendillar?
Is cuendillar even vulnerable to itself?

My third possibility - there's a weave that un-Cuendillars things.

fdsaf3
01-11-2012, 08:20 AM
1. Why wasn't it used more often?

My opinion on this has two parts. First, from a narrative perspective, my personal belief is that the indestructibility component of cuendillar was added to emphasize the dire situation the world was in. These indestructible seals are breaking down, and the epitome of all evil is gaining access to the world. Second, we don't really know that much about the world and the culture of the Age of Legends. We know enough to get a general sense, but nothing more specific than that. We know that the Age was peaceful prior to the War of Power; a utopia in almost every respect. Likely the Aes Sedai had no need to reinforce structures or protect cities with cuendillar because they controlled the weather with ter'angreal.

(2) Its indestructible.... So where is it? In the books its extremely rare but because its indestructibility and the wheel of time is endless, shouldn't there but an infinite amount of it laying around? At the very least there should be a lot more from the last Age around.

Sorry if this is nitpicky, but there doesn't have to be an infinite amount of cuendillar lying around. For one thing, not every Age has channelers. For another, it's a big assumption that in every Age where there are channelers the weave for cuendillar is known.

Finally, I'm not entirely sure what "an infinite amount of cuendillar" even means. But let's say that we are outside of time and can know the total amount of cuendillar in the world. Your statement that the total amount must be infinite isn't necessarily true. The best and easiest way for me to explain this is with a mathematical concept of an infinite sum. Say production of cuendillar follows an oversimplified functional form of 1/2^A where A is the Age, or number of turnings of the Wheel of Time. Following the rules of infinite sums, this turns out to be 2, not infinity. I'm not quite sure what 2 means in this case, but it's irrelevant. My point is that (and this is a minor quibble, despite how I'm going on and on about it) there doesn't necessarily have to be an infinite amount of cuendillar in the world.

Whew. I thought about doing a more formal proof, but I sure hope this suffices.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 08:57 AM
There's a tiny problem with your mathematical approach: it's nonsense. But apart from that, nice try.

Your approach only works if the amounts of cuendillar produced decrease with every Turn (that's a more reasonable measure than Ages, I think). If there had been 10 Turns with cuendillar production before this, then they would've produced 1,000 times as much in the earliest of those than they do now. If there had been 30 Turns, then at the start they would have produced a billion times as much as Egwene did now. That's starting to add up, isn't it?
On the other hand, looking to the future, 40 Turns from now, the total cuendillar production would only have been one trillionth (10^-12) of what it is now. That's mighty small ornamental cups, don't you think?

Look at it this way:
There have been an infinite number of Turnings of the Wheel already. If one single cuendillar cup were left from each Turn, that would be an infinite number of such cups on the Earth. One would almost think people would notice that kind of thing.

Lupusdeusest
01-11-2012, 09:06 AM
I weave that finds the iron in cuendillar and brings it back to its original form?

thomwoosley
01-11-2012, 09:19 AM
Look at it this way:
There have been an infinite number of Turnings of the Wheel already. If one single cuendillar cup were left from each Turn, that would be an infinite number of such cups on the Earth. One would almost think people would notice that kind of thing.

First, while there have been many turnings of the wheel, that does not mean an infinite number of turnings.

Second, cuendillar is made from iron. When you have proved they have infinite iron, you may begin to speculate about infinite cuendillar.

I do tend to agree that for such a durable substance, there's not as much around as I'd expect. There's probably a key fact missing, possibly a weave to unmake cuendillar, or some other method of destruction.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 09:27 AM
I weave that finds the iron in cuendillar and brings it back to its original form?
Verin unsaidared it.

fdsaf3
01-11-2012, 10:08 AM
There's a tiny problem with your mathematical approach: it's nonsense. But apart from that, nice try.

Your approach only works if the amounts of cuendillar produced decrease with every Turn (that's a more reasonable measure than Ages, I think).

My "approach" was *an* example of how an infinite sum can equal a finite number. I was pretty clear about that in my previous post. The post I was referring to posited that an infinite number of Turnings of the Wheel necessarily implies that there would be an infinite amount of cuendillar if the substance were truly indestructible. My point was to disprove that assumption through a ridiculously oversimplified example. You should understand my argument as you excel at taking statements to extremes to prove a point.


If there had been 10 Turns with cuendillar production before this, then they would've produced 1,000 times as much in the earliest of those than they do now.

I'm really not sure where or how you're getting these numbers other than making them up as you go.

Look at it this way:
There have been an infinite number of Turnings of the Wheel already. If one single cuendillar cup were left from each Turn, that would be an infinite number of such cups on the Earth. One would almost think people would notice that kind of thing.

The word infinity...I do not think it means what you think it means. I'm used to people misunderstanding or misstating the concept of infinity to prove a point, so I'm not going to debate this with you. I'm really over it.

Here's another mathematical "proof" that the amount of cuendillar isn't infinite, nor should it be: take an infinite series where the number of occurrences where the number of turnings of the Wheel where A) channelers existed, and B) they knew how to make cuendillar is finite. There's no reason to assume that this number is infinite: we know of only two such occurrences in all the Turnings of the Wheel. Since we know that the amount of cuendillar produced in the AoL isn't infinite, nor is the amount produced in the current Age infinite, the total accounted amount is finite. Thus, the sum of an infinite series with finite occurrences and finite amounts of cuendillar produced totals a finite amount of cuendillar produced.

This is all aside from the obvious fact that "an infinite amount of cuendillar" makes no sense as a theoretical concept whatsoever, which I also made clear in my previous post on this matter.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 10:23 AM
My point was to disprove that assumption through a ridiculously oversimplified example. You should understand my argument as you excel at taking statements to extremes to prove a point.
When I do that, I try to make sure that at least the math is accurate. Your approach only works if it were possible to convert infinitely small amounts of iron to cuendillar. Since half an iron-atom is not iron, it is clear that you can not subdivide indefinitely.

I'm really not sure where or how you're getting these numbers other than making them up as you go.
It's called arithmetic.

One Turn away, and the amount is twice (or half) what it is in this Turn.
Two Turns away, and the amount is four times (or a quarter) what it is in this Turn.
Three Turns away, and the amount is eight times (or one eight) what it is in this Turn.
Ten Turns away, and the amount is 1,024 times (or one part in 1,024) what it is in this Turn.
And so forth.

Here's another mathematical "proof" that the amount of cuendillar isn't infinite, nor should it be: take an infinite series where the number of occurrences where the number of turnings of the Wheel where A) channelers existed, and B) they knew how to make cuendillar is finite. There's no reason to assume that this number is infinite: we know of only two such occurrences in all the Turnings of the Wheel.
Trouble is: that's also all the actually relevant cases that we know about. So, we do not have reason to think that it would occur only in a finite number of times, but we do have reason to think that it might be fairly common, as it happened in all cases where people could channel.

Since we know that the amount of cuendillar produced in the AoL isn't infinite, nor is the amount produced in the current Age infinite, the total accounted amount is finite. Thus, the sum of an infinite series with finite occurrences and finite amounts of cuendillar produced totals a finite amount of cuendillar produced.
The obvious explanation of this is that cuendillar does not last eternally, that somehow it can be recycled.

This is all aside from the obvious fact that "an infinite amount of cuendillar" makes no sense as a theoretical concept whatsoever, which I also made clear in my previous post on this matter.
According to Wikipedia, about 32% of the mass of the Earth is iron, that seems quite believable to me. If even half of that were cuendillar, it would still be quite a large amount.

So, to sum it up: I think that it is degradation, rather than non-production, which explains why there isn't a lot more cuendillar around.

fdsaf3
01-11-2012, 10:41 AM
When I do that, I try to make sure that at least the math is accurate. Your approach only works if it were possible to convert infinitely small amounts of iron to cuendillar. Since half an iron-atom is not iron, it is clear that you can not subdivide indefinitely.

Do you even try for reading comprehension at this point? Here, let me quote my OWN post (which you should have read) and let you connect the dots:

My "approach" was *an* example of how an infinite sum can equal a finite number.

So, to be perfectly clear: my so-called "approach" is nothing more than *an* example (singular) of how an infinite sum can equal a finite number. Got it? Good. This is basic, elementary analysis we're talking about here. If you want to pretend to have a mathematical conversation with me, at least understand this very basic principle, ok?

There are a number of logistical issues with earth being part of an infinite Wheel. Robert Jordan never intended for all of those wrinkles to be ironed out (ha ha, good pun).

It's called arithmetic.

One Turn away, and the amount is twice (or half) what it is in this Turn.
Two Turns away, and the amount is four times (or a quarter) what it is in this Turn.
Three Turns away, and the amount is eight times (or one eight) what it is in this Turn.
Ten Turns away, and the amount is 1,024 times (or one part in 1,024) what it is in this Turn.
And so forth.

So for some reason we are assuming that the amount of cuendillar doubles...for some reason...every turning of the wheel. Which we know isn't true simply because no one has made any since the Breaking of the World and the Wheel is about to turn, thus meaning that the total amount of cuendillar isn't double what it was in the previous turning. It's that previous total plus whatever Egwene added.

Trouble is: that's also all the actually relevant cases that we know about. So, we do not have reason to think that it would occur only in a finite number of times, but we do have reason to think that it might be fairly common, as it happened in all cases where people could channel.

If you want to extrapolate two instances into "fairly common" go right ahead. I'll stay a bit more conservative in my estimates, thank you.

I'll leave it as an exercise to anyone reading this thread whether it makes more sense to explain a lack of cuendillar that a seemingly indestructible material degraded or that it simply isn't made very often. Personally, my feeling is the latter.

Zombie Sammael
01-11-2012, 10:47 AM
Gonzo, you're assuming exponential growth of the amount of cuendillar, which is inaccurate. There is no reason to think the people in the third turning would make twice as much cuendillar as the people in the first or second. However, if cuendillar is indestructible, they would add to the amount of cuendillar, but in an arithmetic, not exponential, manner, i.e. the third turning would contain three times as much cuendillar as the first, the fifth five times as much, the 5412th 5412 times as much, etc. That is why it is thought there must be an infinite amount of cuendillar in the world, because with infinite prior turnings, there should be infinite times as much cuendillar.

Thus we have to conclude that either (1) cuendillar is not indestructible, which we have some evidence for by way of knowing there are two methods by which it can be destroyed; or (2) some event happens which gets rid of all of the cuendillar other than outright destroying it.

I really don't understand fdsaf3's example, though.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 10:51 AM
I'll leave it as an exercise to anyone reading this thread whether it makes more sense to explain a lack of cuendillar that a seemingly indestructible material degraded or that it simply isn't made very often. Personally, my feeling is the latter.
Why?

What reason is there to assume that this (the Turn the books are about) is such a very special time?
Why should we assume that at virtually no other point in an an infinite time anyone would figure out how to make cuendillar?

We know that things which the characters think are forever will be recycled/replenished somehow.
Another example of this are the wolf souls. There too, your approach would require that in no other (or only a finite number of Turns, at most) any wolfs die in the Wolfdream. That is totally unbelievable; if nothing else, the DO would figure out that setting up a wolf extermination program would rid him of one source of opposition at least.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Why?



I always had a weird reaction when I read the bits about the Aes Sedai making Cuendillar. I never gave it much thought until this thread.

Cuendillar is special. It is something that has been valued over time and treated with awe, so much so that the Seals were focused with it. The whole point was the belief it is indestructible, so why would anyone make a ton of it? "Just because they can" doesn't seem a reasonable answer.

Egwene's little factory proved even weak sisters can make it, which immediately makes it, well, boring. So even if it was discovered and shared during infinite turnings, the idea that it was unbreakable may have been enough to keep it from becoming common in the minds of those who knew the secret. A better question would be why fill a world with something that cannot be destroyed?

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2012, 11:33 AM
A better question would be why fill a world with something that cannot be destroyed?
Because you forgot where you put the other piece which can not be destroyed that was the right shape is, and making a new one is easier than searching in all your drawers.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-11-2012, 11:43 AM
why Gonzo, I do believe that was a joke you just made lololol :p

Davian93
01-11-2012, 11:47 AM
I always had a weird reaction when I read the bits about the Aes Sedai making Cuendillar. I never gave it much thought until this thread.

Cuendillar is special. It is something that has been valued over time and treated with awe, so much so that the Seals were focused with it. The whole point was the belief it is indestructible, so why would anyone make a ton of it? "Just because they can" doesn't seem a reasonable answer.

Egwene's little factory proved even weak sisters can make it, which immediately makes it, well, boring. So even if it was discovered and shared during infinite turnings, the idea that it was unbreakable may have been enough to keep it from becoming common in the minds of those who knew the secret. A better question would be why fill a world with something that cannot be destroyed?

Egwene ruins a lot of things.

fdsaf3
01-11-2012, 02:43 PM
Why?

What reason is there to assume that this (the Turn the books are about) is such a very special time?
Why should we assume that at virtually no other point in an an infinite time anyone would figure out how to make cuendillar?

Because proof by lack of counterexample is logically fallacious and you should know that.

You can't use "infinite turnings of the Wheel" or "infinite parallel worlds" as proof of something. Again, you are misusing the concept of infinity to prove an arbitrary point. It doesn't work like that.

We know that things which the characters think are forever will be recycled/replenished somehow.
Another example of this are the wolf souls. There too, your approach would require that in no other (or only a finite number of Turns, at most) any wolfs die in the Wolfdream. That is totally unbelievable; if nothing else, the DO would figure out that setting up a wolf extermination program would rid him of one source of opposition at least.

My "approach" will do no such thing as my "approach" didn't touch upon this.

I honestly don't understand why this has been missed as many times as I've posted it now.

I really don't understand fdsaf3's example, though.

Ok. Last time I try this. Here we go.

On the first page of this thread, the comment was made that there ought to be an infinite amount of cuendillar in the world due to the fact that there have been infinite turnings of the Wheel.

My simple, easy to understand comment in response is that infinite series can have finite sums. That is, even in infinite turnings of the Wheel, people could have (and very likely have) produced a finite amount of cuendillar. All the math jargon was an effort to make that more clear since I think in math terms.

I hope that's clear because it's the last time I'm going to bother trying to explain it.

Zombie Sammael
01-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Ok. Last time I try this. Here we go.

On the first page of this thread, the comment was made that there ought to be an infinite amount of cuendillar in the world due to the fact that there have been infinite turnings of the Wheel.

My simple, easy to understand comment in response is that infinite series can have finite sums. That is, even in infinite turnings of the Wheel, people could have (and very likely have) produced a finite amount of cuendillar. All the math jargon was an effort to make that more clear since I think in math terms.

I hope that's clear because it's the last time I'm going to bother trying to explain it.

Helps when you cut out the maths. ;) Of course, one possible explanation is that the role played by cuendillar in the pattern is not always played by cuendillar, but in fact by a different substance in each turning. This would explain the lack of an infinite amount of cuendillar (but not the lack of various other susbstances with similar properties).

JOS
01-11-2012, 03:59 PM
...take an infinite series where the number of occurrences where the number of turnings of the Wheel where A) channelers existed, and B) they knew how to make cuendillar is finite. There's no reason to assume that this number is infinite: we know of only two such occurrences in all the Turnings of the Wheel. Since we know that the amount of cuendillar produced in the AoL isn't infinite, nor is the amount produced in the current Age infinite, the total accounted amount is finite. Thus, the sum of an infinite series with finite occurrences and finite amounts of cuendillar produced totals a finite amount of cuendillar produced.

I don't follow your math, but it was fun to read. I have an idea that addresses the the infinite accumulation problem; but beware, it is loony:

I have decided that the Hearstone that should be infinitely accumulating throughout the ages was destroyed by Fifth Age attempts to reseal the DO's prison. It is a lengthy explanation, but for those of you that enjoy loony theories, I have included additional background for context: :D

First Age: Primitive, peaceful, channeling discovered to end of age.

Second Age: Golden Age of the Power, ended with opening of DO's prison, and the Breaking.

Third Age: Fallen Age, Primitive with channeling, ends with the Dragon Reborn sealing of the DO's prison with Valan Luca's cape, hardened to heartstone like strength with mud made from the blood of the Dragon mixed with dirt from Shayl Ghoul (or however he is going to do it, cause let’s face it, we have no idea).

Forth Age: Golden Age of Technology and Channeling, ends with Power assisted Space Age and the colonization of another world. Peaceful.

Fifth Age: The third Age seal on DO's prison is imperfect, leaving "seams" that the DO can reach through. War breaks out due to the DO's minor influence. Channelers on Home planet Randland, vaguely remember the myth about the massive Sa'angrel capable of sealing the DO's prison and try to build new ones to combat the DO and "caulk the seams" of his prison. The maneuver works, but the backlash kills all sentient life on planet Randland and shatters all power wrought materials (including cullindar). This backlash reverberates through the galaxy, obliterating the pattern at planet Randland but only destroying channelers on the colony planet. This also blocks all access to the True Source. The pattern is held together by the remaining lives woven into the colony planet. This event ends the age and traps the DO again, in another repaired prison.

Sixth Age: Colony planets reinvent space age technology without the help of the power. They realize that without travelling (via the power) interstellar transportation takes a really freaking long time. They develop a colonization ship to return to planet Randland to investigate the loss of communication and access to the True Source. A strictly controlled mission ensues in which generations pass on the colonization ship while the ship slowly deteriorates over the centuries. Upon achieving orbit around planet Randland the only way to reach the planet's surface is to jettison escape pods. The age ends when a small group of survivors reach the surface and start building the new civilizations of Randland. The colonization planet (non-Randland) is obliterated in a supernova, cause I don’t want to follow the story-line.

Seventh Age: Our Age, an age of evolving technology without the power. The beginning of the age is described according to our know mythology and religion, and the age ends with cataclysmic global thermal nuclear warfare. The repairs to the DO's Prison weaken throughout this age, and it is the DO that drives world powers toward nuclear war, hoping to destroy time and the pattern by obliterating all life. Despite his efforts, and a lot of very large explosions, there are survivors in bunkers deep below the earth’s surface. The compounded nuclear energy from the thermal nuclear weapons actually melts and re-forges the DO's prison to be like new again, free of patches and repairs. A small colony, devoted to abstaining from industrial age technology, survives to start the first age.
So … that is how all the Heartstone is obliterated between ages … in case you were wondering.

Maybe RJ didn't think through that particular problem ...

Terez
01-11-2012, 04:04 PM
lol. From my Facebook/Twitter:

Thanks for linking to a thread which made my eyeballs wither! Just got to work and read a whole lot of nonsense about making cuendillar and the amount of iron in the earth. Mining engineers those Theoryland posters aint.

Actually they sound like White Ajah. The ones who meet in the Tower basement...

eht slat meit
01-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Helps when you cut out the maths. ;) Of course, one possible explanation is that the role played by cuendillar in the pattern is not always played by cuendillar, but in fact by a different substance in each turning. This would explain the lack of an infinite amount of cuendillar (but not the lack of various other susbstances with similar properties).

Another explanation would be the fact that the Turnings of the wheel vary radically, even if they come round similar again. Take the known Ages for example.

Our Age - In Mundania, there is no contact with the OP, thus no cuendillar.

AOL - In an Age where iron was not commonplace for reasons mentioned elsewhere in the thread, cuendillar is sparse, use only as felt appropriate.

Randland - In an Age where cuendillar is rare, with no realized practical use, it is made sparingly to continue keeping it a valuable resource that draws revenue for the WT.

Consider that it's necessary to have an Age where not only is the use of the OP common enough to rediscover cuendillar, but not so common as to make it a deadlier substitute for iron weapons and armor, and suddenly there's an obvious balance that needs to happen for cuendillar to become common. That's something that's not going to happen often in the Turnings, and we also know that cuendillar eventually decays, whether by Shadow or what, I'm not sure off the top of my head.

The world's a very large place, and that which is rare and valuable can/will get lost/hoarded. I don't see the potential to have incredible amounts of cuendillar littered all over the place...

... oh wait, yeah I do.

In an Age where Cuendillar is like our Age's version of plastic, which would be gross. :)

Zombie Sammael
01-11-2012, 04:31 PM
I don't follow your math, but it was fun to read. I have an idea that addresses the the infinite accumulation problem; but beware, it is loony:

I have decided that the Hearstone that should be infinitely accumulating throughout the ages was destroyed by Fifth Age attempts to reseal the DO's prison. It is a lengthy explanation, but for those of you that enjoy loony theories, I have included additional background for context: :D

First Age: Primitive, peaceful, channeling discovered to end of age.

Second Age: Golden Age of the Power, ended with opening of DO's prison, and the Breaking.

Third Age: Fallen Age, Primitive with channeling, ends with the Dragon Reborn sealing of the DO's prison with Valan Luca's cape, hardened to heartstone like strength with mud made from the blood of the Dragon mixed with dirt from Shayl Ghoul (or however he is going to do it, cause let’s face it, we have no idea).

Forth Age: Golden Age of Technology and Channeling, ends with Power assisted Space Age and the colonization of another world. Peaceful.

Fifth Age: The third Age seal on DO's prison is imperfect, leaving "seams" that the DO can reach through. War breaks out due to the DO's minor influence. Channelers on Home planet Randland, vaguely remember the myth about the massive Sa'angrel capable of sealing the DO's prison and try to build new ones to combat the DO and "caulk the seams" of his prison. The maneuver works, but the backlash kills all sentient life on planet Randland and shatters all power wrought materials (including cullindar). This backlash reverberates through the galaxy, obliterating the pattern at planet Randland but only destroying channelers on the colony planet. This also blocks all access to the True Source. The pattern is held together by the remaining lives woven into the colony planet. This event ends the age and traps the DO again, in another repaired prison.

Sixth Age: Colony planets reinvent space age technology without the help of the power. They realize that without travelling (via the power) interstellar transportation takes a really freaking long time. They develop a colonization ship to return to planet Randland to investigate the loss of communication and access to the True Source. A strictly controlled mission ensues in which generations pass on the colonization ship while the ship slowly deteriorates over the centuries. Upon achieving orbit around planet Randland the only way to reach the planet's surface is to jettison escape pods. The age ends when a small group of survivors reach the surface and start building the new civilizations of Randland. The colonization planet (non-Randland) is obliterated in a supernova, cause I don’t want to follow the story-line.

Seventh Age: Our Age, an age of evolving technology without the power. The beginning of the age is described according to our know mythology and religion, and the age ends with cataclysmic global thermal nuclear warfare. The repairs to the DO's Prison weaken throughout this age, and it is the DO that drives world powers toward nuclear war, hoping to destroy time and the pattern by obliterating all life. Despite his efforts, and a lot of very large explosions, there are survivors in bunkers deep below the earth’s surface. The compounded nuclear energy from the thermal nuclear weapons actually melts and re-forges the DO's prison to be like new again, free of patches and repairs. A small colony, devoted to abstaining from industrial age technology, survives to start the first age.
So … that is how all the Heartstone is obliterated between ages … in case you were wondering.

Maybe RJ didn't think through that particular problem ...

I personally am of the opinion that our Age is the First Age, and the Seventh Age ends with the inevitable heat death of the universe (or your favourite Science Apocalypse equivalent). The First Age begins with a new Big Bang.

Either that, or my even loonier theory: the AOL is actually the Seventh Age. The First Age lasted until the Trolloc Wars, the Second until the War of the Hundred Years, hence why this is the Third Age. I actually haven't come across a quote that contradicts this theory, I don't think (quotemasters, that's your cue).

Eltheriond
01-11-2012, 08:45 PM
In TEotW, doesn't one of the earliest wolves that communicates with Perrin say that it remembers a time when men hunted with sticks and wolves at their side? Doesn't this alone tell us that humankind has not been producing heartstone for an infinite number of turnings? Or even that the Wheel itself has only been turning for a finite number of turns?

Drakkim
01-11-2012, 09:01 PM
Here's another theory...

There is evidence that there wasn't much war in the AoL:
"Do you remember when we took that tame game of swords and used it to kill?”
—Be'lal to Rand, The Dragon Reborn. pg650

Now, with that in mind, once heartstone became useful for war, those strong enough in the Power may have been needed in the War.

Also, the weave for cuendillar was only discovered at the end of Rand's age. Perhaps the same was true of the Age of Legends. Perhaps it was discovered during the War of Power? That would certainly explain the rarity, because I doubt art was a high priority when Aes Sedai serving the Dark One were trying to destroy the world...

suttree
01-11-2012, 10:58 PM
lol. From my Facebook/Twitter:

[/LEFT]

Ace.

Cortar
01-12-2012, 01:39 AM
Verin unsaidared it.

I literally Laughed Out Loud for this... Thank you.

Egwene ruins a lot of things.

Even a thread about cuendillar can turn into a hate-Egwene thread lol


@fdsaf3

Unfortunately I understand math and can understand how your math is flawed.

Lets say there are an infinite number of turnings of the WoT. Even if the making of cuendillar is REALLY small, say every 10 turnings there is a 10% chance that ONE piece of it will be made, if you calculate that sum, it goes to infinity.

Your math example assumes you can make fractions of cuendillar which doesn't make sense.

Weird Harold
01-12-2012, 02:54 AM
In TEotW, doesn't one of the earliest wolves that communicates with Perrin say that it remembers a time when men hunted with sticks and wolves at their side? Doesn't this alone tell us that humankind has not been producing heartstone for an infinite number of turnings? Or even that the Wheel itself has only been turning for a finite number of turns?
Your logic only works if Time is linear. In the WOT, Time is "circular" or cyclical; If a wolf remembers running with men hunting with sticks, then men will hunt with sticks at some point in EVERY Turning,

At some point between the time of the story and our own time, it will be necessary for something to destroy ALL civilization so that the rise of Man from cavedweller to million dollar Manhattan condo dweller can happen again.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2012, 05:15 AM
Because proof by lack of counterexample is logically fallacious and you should know that.

You can't use "infinite turnings of the Wheel" or "infinite parallel worlds" as proof of something. Again, you are misusing the concept of infinity to prove an arbitrary point. It doesn't work like that.
I am trying to use the assumption that the laws of nature do not change from one Turn to the other. Apparently, that's not an assumption you feel is warranted.

My simple, easy to understand comment in response is that infinite series can have finite sums. That is, even in infinite turnings of the Wheel, people could have (and very likely have) produced a finite amount of cuendillar. All the math jargon was an effort to make that more clear since I think in math terms.

I hope that's clear because it's the last time I'm going to bother trying to explain it.
It is clear, but the problem is that it assumes that it is literally impossible to make cuendillar in almost every Turn of the Wheel. Only if that possibility only exists in a finite number of Turns would your argument hold water.

So, what reason do we have to assume that in the present Turn the laws of nature are such that they permit the manufacture of Heartstone, while in most Turns of the Wheel that is not possible?

Those are the two competing theories for the scarcity of cuendillar:
1. In contrast to the beliefs of people in the Second and Third Age, cuendillar is not actually indestructible.
2. Because the laws of nature vary from Turn to Turn, there are only a finite number of Turns during which cuendillar can be produced.

Now, we actually do happen to have actual proof for theory 1, that cuendillar can be destroyed: the Seals on the DO's prison are made from the stuff, and he is obliterating that.
We do not, to the best of my knowledge, have anything remotely resembling evidence for theory 2.

So, which should we pick, and why?

fionwe1987
01-12-2012, 06:39 AM
Egwene isn't that much of a freak if she were born in the Age of Legends, just really powerful, but certainly not the most. She also taught quite a few amount of people how to make hearstone, especially considering the number of AS in this age compared to the AoL
She is a freak with respect to this ability, not in her strength in the Power. She can basically turn the world into cuendillar in a heartbeat, if she reaches the iron at the core. If you're saying hundreds of such people existed in the Age of Legends, then fine, but I find that a silly idea.

If this is true then why would they waste it on frivolous things like bowls? I digress, even if heartstone is made once an Age there would still be an infinite amount of heartstone objects in the world because of the nature of the wheel.
Why in the world is a bowl frivolous? It holds things, dammit!

And what proof do you have that when the Wheel has turned, there isn't a Big Crunch like event which destroys everything, and a new turning begins with a Big Bang?

After all, the Wheel of Time in Vedic belief isn't free of cycles of complete destruction and recreation. Every time the wheel completes a cycle, everything is destroyed, then Brahma wakes up and starts from scratch. A similar mythology in WoT would mean all the Cuendillar gets destroyed at the end of the seventh Age.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2012, 06:42 AM
If heartstone is truly indestructible, then not even a Big Crunch could destroy it.
Or, alternative take on that: if a Big Crunch can destroy cuendillar, then there are now two independent methods for destroying this stuff, which suggests that it is not indistructible at all.

fionwe1987
01-12-2012, 06:58 AM
If heartstone is truly indestructible, then not even a Big Crunch could destroy it.
Or, alternative take on that: if a Big Crunch can destroy cuendillar, then there are now two independent methods for destroying this stuff, which suggests that it is not indistructible at all.
But it isn't indestructible. The Dark One is able to destroy it. What's to say something else can't?

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2012, 07:09 AM
Well, that's my argument: based on the fact that there are a couple (at least one) of ways of destroying it, the assumption that it is indestructible is not tenable.

Zombie Sammael
01-12-2012, 07:16 AM
The True Power works by destroying the Pattern. Everything that is done with it involves damage to the Pattern. For example, when we see Ishamael Travel, he does so by poking a hole in the Pattern. Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power. There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too.

That is all.

Lupusdeusest
01-12-2012, 08:37 AM
Each cycle is quite short, also, and presumably the Creator doesn't remake everything all over again. He'd never get around to making other worlds.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2012, 08:45 AM
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose above the misty peaks of Imfaral.
I would say that it is quite obvious that there is a difference between the Second Age and the Third Age, and based on what we know so far, the Fourth Age will be pretty distinct from those too.

So if there is any reason to doubt that this is the Third Age, then it has to possible to doubt whether something is the First Age too. Which means that the step from Seventh Age to First Age would not be significantly more obvious than the one from Second to Third. And that, of course, rules out the Big Bang to Big Crunch scenario, as there the Big Bang (which is also the end of the Big Crunch) is rather more cataclysmic than anything else in the entire Turn.

So basically we should not assume that things are made anew by the Creator, as that would invalidate the repeated "called the Third Age by some" phrase.

fdsaf3
01-12-2012, 08:48 AM
Ugh, I'm just going to bow out of this thread. I never meant to get as sidetracked as this. The only thing more painful than reading bad math and worse logic is knowing that people are going to come to TL for insight on the series and see this thread as an example of this community.

Unfortunately I understand math and can understand how your math is flawed.

Really? I hope for your sake you didn't pay money for your math education.

Davian93
01-12-2012, 08:56 AM
Your logic only works if Time is linear. In the WOT, Time is "circular" or cyclical; If a wolf remembers running with men hunting with sticks, then men will hunt with sticks at some point in EVERY Turning,

At some point between the time of the story and our own time, it will be necessary for something to destroy ALL civilization so that the rise of Man from cavedweller to million dollar Manhattan condo dweller can happen again.

Time is more like a Helix than circular in WoT...at least that's what RJ said at one point. Each turning is subtly different. Also, we know that there was a start point because the Creator at some point "created" the universe.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-12-2012, 09:03 AM
There are several ways to weave flows in order to make anything. Generally, if one has learned to make something one way, then unlearning or using a different way to weave is less effective. This is mentioned in relation to Aviendha and Traveling, but it is also evident when discussing hand gestures or the need to maintain eye contact with an object/the weave - neither are technically necessary but if a channeler has learned it in a specific way, then that's how it works. Sort of like a semi-crippling Block, and we all know how hard it can be to break a Block.

Now, making Cuendillar, Egwene discovered that weave. She had a few hints on the mechanics/principles from Moggy but she made that particular weave up. This would explain why she's the strongest with that weave, it is not to say that if someone else had created it, they wouldn't be strongest and it is also not to say that Egwene would have been as strong with the AoL version of the same weave.

Zombie Sammael
01-12-2012, 10:10 AM
Time is more like a Helix than circular in WoT...at least that's what RJ said at one point. Each turning is subtly different. Also, we know that there was a start point because the Creator at some point "created" the universe.

Not necessarily. You see, the Creator created a wheel. At some point, each part of the wheel will make contact with the threads it is spinning into the Pattern; that contact is time. The Creator, therefore, exists outside of time, or more properly, he has his own version of time which is separate to the time experienced by the Wheel, the pattern, and the threads therein (including people). As such, there is not (from the point of view of the Wheel and the pattern) strictly speaking a start point, as at whatever point the Wheel actually did start turning, everything else would simply always have been. From the Creator's perspective, there is a start point, but it's actually questionable whether it would be identifiable even to him.

Weird Harold
01-12-2012, 10:16 AM
Also, we know that there was a start point because the Creator at some point "created" the universe.

When the forge hammer drops onto a blank to create a wheel, which point on the edge is the starting point?

Every novel starts with the assertion, "there are no beginnings or endings in the WOT." the Wheel of Time was created with everything the has or will happen already in place and the only difference between past and future is the direction you're facing.

eht slat meit
01-12-2012, 10:58 AM
When the forge hammer drops onto a blank to create a wheel, which point on the edge is the starting point?

Every novel starts with the assertion, "there are no beginnings or endings in the WOT." the Wheel of Time was created with everything the has or will happen already in place and the only difference between past and future is the direction you're facing.

The specific verse indicates that there are no beginnings or endings to the -turnings- of the wheel, which isn't the same thing. The wheel does not begin turning until -after- it is forged. You might consider the point at which the Wheel is set upon the ground and begins turning -a- beginning, but since all Ages existed before that moment, it's not -the- beginning.

fdsaf3
01-12-2012, 11:25 AM
The specific verse indicates that there are no beginnings or endings to the -turnings- of the wheel, which isn't the same thing. The wheel does not begin turning until -after- it is forged. You might consider the point at which the Wheel is set upon the ground and begins turning -a- beginning, but since all Ages existed before that moment, it's not -the- beginning.

This makes no sense.

For some reason, you seem to be using a circular notion of time (referred to in the series as a Wheel) with a wheel as one might find on a car interchangeably. I don't get it.

The phrase Harold pointed out ("there are no beginnings or endings in the Wheel of Time") is pretty definitive, in my opinion. I admit it can be difficult to think about time in a nonlinear fashion, but this discussion is predicated on letting go of everything we think we know about concepts related to time, i.e. past, present, future, beginning, end...

Crispin's Crispian
01-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Which direction is a wheel turning before it is forged?

The question makes no sense, because turning is a function of the wheel.

In the same way, time is a function of the Wheel of Time, so it makes no sense to ask what happened "before" the Wheel was created. There is no before.

Lupusdeusest
01-12-2012, 02:24 PM
Which direction is a wheel turning before it is forged?

The question makes no sense, because turning is a function of the wheel.

In the same way, time is a function of the Wheel of Time, so it makes no sense to ask what happened "before" the Wheel was created. There is no before.

Is there Time within Time?

WinespringBrother
01-12-2012, 02:35 PM
Knowing its properties, how does the Breaking make sense?

(1) Its not THAT hard to make. Egwene can make a lot of it pretty quickly, and there are quite a few (considering the population of Aes Sedia) who can be taught how to make it.

Thus, why weren't buildings made of it? I know it was a peaceful time but surely they had earthquakes and tornadoes and other such disasters. At the very least when the War of the Power got into full swing you would think they would make their cities into heartstone to help against attacks from the Shadow

Furthermore, why wasn't soldier's armor made of it? It sounds like it would make you invincible. If it was too heavy (which it doesn't sound like considering you could make it paper thin) then why weren't their tanks or shields used it with. Why couldn't you build a dome of it around a city (including the farmland) and make that city untouchable?

(2) Its indestructible.... So where is it? In the books its extremely rare but because its indestructibility and the wheel of time is endless, shouldn't there but an infinite amount of it laying around? At the very least there should be a lot more from the last Age around.

Why make weapons out of cuendillar when there is an existing weave to create power-wrought weapons, that are +1 vs shadowspawn:

Towers of Midnight CH: 41 - An Unexpected Ally
Thunder sounded as Gallenne brought his horsemen around in another charge. They hammered into the Trolloc line and forced many of them off the edge, tumbling them back down the incline. Perrin slammed Mah'alleinir into a Trollocs head. The force of the blow tossed the creature to the side, and-oddly-its skin sizzled and smoked where the hammer had hit. This happened with each blow, as if the touch of Mah'alleinir burned them, though Perrin felt only a comfortable warmth from the hammer.

Does it mention anywhere if Mah'alleinir is as "indestructible" as Tam's heron-mark blade?

Crispin's Crispian
01-12-2012, 02:44 PM
Is there Time within Time?

Is there anything north of the north pole?

Zombie Sammael
01-12-2012, 02:53 PM
Is there Time within Time?

I'd say yes, in a way. There is the time of the Wheel, essentially circular, and the time in which the Creator exists, which might be either linear or circular, but which is essentially the x axis to the wheel's y.

fionwe1987
01-12-2012, 03:20 PM
I think using the fact that some people may not call this the Third Age as proof that the turning of the Wheel includes no cataclysm is absurd. What that quote indicates is that the division of each turning of the Wheel into seven ages is a human construct. And since humans are not fully aware of when each turning started and when an Age began or ended, there is disagreement and confusion over what the current or next Age is. So, there may be some who argue that a new Age did NOT begin when Lews Therin sealed the Bore, which would make this the Second, and not the Third Age. This doesn't preclude the possibility of a Big Crunch/Big Bang.

As for cuendillar not being indestructible if a Big Crunch can destroy it: We know almost certainly that the laws of Physics were different before and at the start of the Big Bang. Which means what is REAL and TRUE now has no bearing at that time. And we already know of multiple warped realities in WoT. So Cuendillar may indeed be indestructible except for the Dark One and a Big Crunch, and since neither are normal parts of the Pattern, it doesn't matter. For all we know, once every Seven Ages, the Dark One does destroy everything, freeing the Creator to duke it out with him, which results in his being sealed, which allows the Creator to create, which starts the next cycle. That may even be how the series ends, and thus, what was known as the Third Age by some ends up being the Seventh Age. I wouldn't put it past Jordan to totally turn the tables on us in that way.

AbbeyRoad
01-12-2012, 03:33 PM
There is the time of the Wheel, essentially circular, and the time in which the Creator exists, which might be either linear or circular, but which is essentially the x axis to the wheel's y.
Why apply two axes to the single unit of time? We have no way of measuring it, nor any conception whatsoever of its properties, so why define it or assign parameters to it? Why even discuss the Creator's conception of time when it is not germane to the discussion?

For that matter, I believe this discussion has surpassed its intent. It is a much simpler explanation to assume that cuendillar, which we have been told can be destroyed by two different means, is destroyed, rather than to debate ad nauseum the nature of infinity in order to presumably set up a mathematical equation with which we have no values for variables to even attempt to solve, nor an equation to encompass those variables.

Since we don't know how many times the wheel has turned (or if that number is infinity), how many pieces of cuendillar are made per turning or the total surface area of those pieces, if cuendillar is even made at some point during every age (or if channeling exists in every age), if it has been made in any age other than the present, nor the limiting reagent of materials required to produce it in every age, obviously no mathematical formula will be able to explain anything.

Why couldn't you build a dome of it around a city (including the farmland) and make that city untouchable?
Presumably because it would make it equally difficult to leave the city without Traveling, and if one could Travel out, then one could Travel in anyways, which would defeat the purpose of the dome.

(2) Its indestructible.... So where is it?
It is a misconception of Randlanders that it is indestructible. Others have quoted Brandon's passage explaining that it is, in fact, destructible.

Seeker
01-12-2012, 03:42 PM
I personally am of the opinion that our Age is the First Age, and the Seventh Age ends with the inevitable heat death of the universe (or your favourite Science Apocalypse equivalent). The First Age begins with a new Big Bang.

I used to believe this but apparently entropy does not exist in Randland. The Earth's sun will never die, according to RJ.

Lupusdeusest
01-12-2012, 03:43 PM
Consider also that humanity and life in general would have to be recreated was everything destroyed. Is each Turning really that long? The length of the Ages we know about would indicate otherwise.

Verin Mathwin
01-12-2012, 03:45 PM
Going with the Randlanders theory that cuendillar is indestructible (I know it isn't, but that's not important here) why is there such an emphasis on the fact that anything you do to destroy cuendillar only makes it stronger? How do you make an already indestructible thing stronger, and how can you tell the difference between a weaker and stronger indestructible item? Never made sense to me.

Seeker
01-12-2012, 03:53 PM
Okay, guys, here's the simplest explanation.

At some point in the future, the One Power is going to go away, right? People discovered how to channel at the beginning of the Age of Legends; so, if time is circular and, at some point in the loop, people discovered how to channel, then it follows that sooner or later people will have to forget how to channel so they can discover it again when the Wheel turns.

This can happen one of two ways:

a) All the channelers die out.

b) Something blocks access to the One Power.

If the latter, then perhaps when the One Power goes away, cuendillar is no longer cuendillar; It just reverts back to ordinary iron. Without the True Source to sustain it, it just becomes normal, everyday matter.

Zombie Sammael
01-12-2012, 03:57 PM
I used to believe this but apparently entropy does not exist in Randland. The Earth's sun will never die, according to RJ.

I'm aware of the quote, but I like to bloody mindedly ignore it (It's probably the only time I actually do, in case anyone wants to go there). Anyway, I like the theory that the AOL is actually the seventh age better.

Seeker
01-12-2012, 04:07 PM
Making buildings out of Cuendillar is impractical because you don't WANT buildings to last forever. Sometimes, you want to tear down a structure to make something else.

Making armour out of Cuendillar is impractical because Cuendillar is inflexible (remember the chain on the south harbour and how they had to tear the whole wall down just to get rid of it) Creating a form-fitting suit of cuendillar would result in the person wearing it being unable to breathe. And armour that hangs loose is practically useless. Imagine wearing a vest that jiggles when you run. Its bulky, it restricts your motion and it would be far too easy to to slip a knife up under the plate.

Also, shock lances were energy-discharge weapons. Going by the name (and Elayne's reaction to being hit by one), I'm pretty sure they hit you with a concentrated bolt of electricity. That said, a vest designed to stop blunt-force attacks would be useless against a shock lance anyway.

Sukoto
01-12-2012, 05:53 PM
This thread is so funny. Supposing there could be an infinite amount of cuendillar just because there are (supposedly) an infinite number of turnings of the Wheel? Ummm... wow. That's just... wow. Tunnel vision of the worst kind. But the mathematical problems are interesting to discuss, if you are willing to try to get on the same page. Hasn't happened thus far. But then again, this whole forum is perpetuated by peoples' desire (conscious or otherwise) to feel the range of emotions associated with "not being on the same page."

fdsaf3
01-12-2012, 08:32 PM
This thread is so funny. Supposing there could be an infinite amount of cuendillar just because there are (supposedly) an infinite number of turnings of the Wheel? Ummm... wow. That's just... wow. Tunnel vision of the worst kind. But the mathematical problems are interesting to discuss, if you are willing to try to get on the same page. Hasn't happened thus far. But then again, this whole forum is perpetuated by peoples' desire (conscious or otherwise) to feel the range of emotions associated with "not being on the same page."

This is, in a nutshell, what I have been saying since my first post.

Thanks.

Marie Curie 7
01-12-2012, 08:32 PM
Also, the weave for cuendillar was only discovered at the end of Rand's age. Perhaps the same was true of the Age of Legends. Perhaps it was discovered during the War of Power? That would certainly explain the rarity, because I doubt art was a high priority when Aes Sedai serving the Dark One were trying to destroy the world...

Nope. The weave for cuendillar was known prior to the War of Power. Cuendillar was considered to be a luxury during the Age of Legends:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets

Salita glowered and hitched her shawl up on her shoulders. Tiana threw up her hands in exasperation. Egwene held her peace. For once, she felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything - at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard - but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest. In any case, no matter who objected or how strenuously, the need for money meant the production of cuendillar would continue. Though as far as she was concerned, the longer before any of it was sold, the better.


She is a freak with respect to this ability, not in her strength in the Power. She can basically turn the world into cuendillar in a heartbeat, if she reaches the iron at the core. If you're saying hundreds of such people existed in the Age of Legends, then fine, but I find that a silly idea.

There are several ways to weave flows in order to make anything. Generally, if one has learned to make something one way, then unlearning or using a different way to weave is less effective. This is mentioned in relation to Aviendha and Traveling, but it is also evident when discussing hand gestures or the need to maintain eye contact with an object/the weave - neither are technically necessary but if a channeler has learned it in a specific way, then that's how it works. Sort of like a semi-crippling Block, and we all know how hard it can be to break a Block.

Now, making Cuendillar, Egwene discovered that weave. She had a few hints on the mechanics/principles from Moggy but she made that particular weave up. This would explain why she's the strongest with that weave, it is not to say that if someone else had created it, they wouldn't be strongest and it is also not to say that Egwene would have been as strong with the AoL version of the same weave.

Egwene is not really a 'freak' in her ability to make cuendillar. There were nine Aes Sedai in Salidar who could make it, along with many Accepted and novices (almost two dozen), though none were nearly as proficient at it as Egwene. So just those Aes Sedai who could make cuendillar, not considering speed at the moment, comprise about 3% of the Salidar Aes Sedai. Counting only those Aes Sedai who were relatively fast at making cuendillar (Egwene and Leane and perhaps eventually Kairen, had she not been murdered) lowers the percentage to about 1% of Aes Sedai.

The weave does require the user to be strong in Earth for it to be effective at all:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets

Ability with the weave improved with practice, but of the Five Powers, strength in Earth was the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp - along with two of the Accepted and nearly two dozen novices had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all. Few among the sisters wanted to give any time to it, though. Ashmanaille, lean enough to make her seem taller than she really was, fingers tapping the tabletop on either side of the simple metal cup in front her, was frowning impatiently as the edge of whiteness crept upward past halfway. Kairen's blue eyes were cold enough that it seemed her stare alone might shatter the tall goblet she was working on. That had only the smallest rim of white at the bottom. It must have been Kairen Egwene had seen going in.

So it's no wonder that Egwene is so good at making cuendillar. She was prized as a damane by the Seanchan because of her ability in Earth so that they could use her to find ores. And we know that strength in Earth has been dying out in the Third Age:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree of the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.

Anyway, RJ said that there were probably millions of channelers in the Age of Legends:

Tor Questions of the Week, December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Robert Jordan Answers: But he [the Dark One] also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

So, just assuming one million channelers in the Age of Legends, and using the same proportion of channelers found in Salidar who could make cuendillar (about 1% could do it effectively), there would be about 10,000 channelers in the Age of Legends who would be able to make cuendillar at a decent rate.

Cortar
01-12-2012, 08:38 PM
This thread is so funny. Supposing there could be an infinite amount of cuendillar just because there are (supposedly) an infinite number of turnings of the Wheel? Ummm... wow. That's just... wow. Tunnel vision of the worst kind. But the mathematical problems are interesting to discuss, if you are willing to try to get on the same page. Hasn't happened thus far. But then again, this whole forum is perpetuated by peoples' desire (conscious or otherwise) to feel the range of emotions associated with "not being on the same page."

Huh you make no sense. This thread is rendered moot since I found a quotation showing that cuendillar is NOT indestructible and that there are ways to destroy it.

If there weren't then its completely feasible to assume there would be an infinite amount of heartstone in the world using simple math. fdsad's understanding of math is somewhat flawed; he understands that an infinite sum can have a finite result but in no way could the amount of cuendillar have be finite using the same kinda of summation.

Marie Curie 7
01-12-2012, 08:51 PM
Each cycle is quite short, also, and presumably the Creator doesn't remake everything all over again. He'd never get around to making other worlds.

The lengths of other Ages are not really known, so it is incorrect to say that each cycle is 'quite short':

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 – The Wheel and the Pattern

No one knows the length of time it takes for a full turning of the Wheel, nor is there a set time for each Age. There is only the certainty that all will come around again, though surely long past the span encompassed by human memory, or even legend. Yet that knowledge provides the basis for the philosophy and history of the known world. No ending, even death, is necessarily final within the turning of the Wheel. Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world. Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be. The only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.

And you are also assuming that the Creator is somehow constrained by time.


I think using the fact that some people may not call this the Third Age as proof that the turning of the Wheel includes no cataclysm is absurd. What that quote indicates is that the division of each turning of the Wheel into seven ages is a human construct. And since humans are not fully aware of when each turning started and when an Age began or ended, there is disagreement and confusion over what the current or next Age is. So, there may be some who argue that a new Age did NOT begin when Lews Therin sealed the Bore, which would make this the Second, and not the Third Age. This doesn't preclude the possibility of a Big Crunch/Big Bang.

As for cuendillar not being indestructible if a Big Crunch can destroy it: We know almost certainly that the laws of Physics were different before and at the start of the Big Bang. Which means what is REAL and TRUE now has no bearing at that time. And we already know of multiple warped realities in WoT. So Cuendillar may indeed be indestructible except for the Dark One and a Big Crunch, and since neither are normal parts of the Pattern, it doesn't matter. For all we know, once every Seven Ages, the Dark One does destroy everything, freeing the Creator to duke it out with him, which results in his being sealed, which allows the Creator to create, which starts the next cycle. That may even be how the series ends, and thus, what was known as the Third Age by some ends up being the Seventh Age. I wouldn't put it past Jordan to totally turn the tables on us in that way.

RJ more or less admitted that he really did not plan the Wheel to be scientifically accurate, or to take into account a variety of things necessary to really explore the notion of circular time through all the Ages:

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910)

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?

Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop . . . that it is really quite immense.

Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?

Jordan: In this universe, no.


tarvalon.net Q&A, Feb 26th, 2003 (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Robert_Jordan_TarValon.net_Intervi ew)

Question: In the Wheel of Time mythos, how do extinct animals come back into existence when the Wheel comes back around?

RJ: Well, the world I created is based on the ideas and conceptions of the world from a roughly medieval viewpoint; time being circular and such. I didn't quite try to make it completely scientifically accurate, so there really is no answer for the question.


Since we don't know how many times the wheel has turned (or if that number is infinity), how many pieces of cuendillar are made per turning or the total surface area of those pieces, if cuendillar is even made at some point during every age (or if channeling exists in every age), if it has been made in any age other than the present, nor the limiting reagent of materials required to produce it in every age, obviously no mathematical formula will be able to explain anything.

Channeling certainly does not exist in every age. Our current age is supposed to be part of the Wheel, and there is no channeling now, at least that I am aware of. So at some point the ability to channel was lost, and in another Age it was rediscovered, which was at the beginning of the Age of Legends, or the end of the Age before that:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

Weird Harold
01-12-2012, 10:36 PM
Anyway, I like the theory that the AOL is actually the seventh age better.

The seven Ages are:

The Mists of Time(past)
The Distant/Age of Myths
The Near Past/Age of Legends
The Present
The Near Future
The Distant Future
The Mists of Time (Future)

No matter what other name is given to the present age, by its end, it will be the "Third Age" and every Age will shift numbering accordingly. Only Scholars number Ages anyway;the common people refer to ages by name.

Sukoto
01-13-2012, 12:25 AM
Huh you make no sense. This thread is rendered moot since I found a quotation showing that cuendillar is NOT indestructible and that there are ways to destroy it.

If there weren't then its completely feasible to assume there would be an infinite amount of heartstone in the world using simple math. fdsad's understanding of math is somewhat flawed; he understands that an infinite sum can have a finite result but in no way could the amount of cuendillar have be finite using the same kinda of summation.

Now I have to chuckle at what you have just typed. Like I said, you have tunnel vision. You have just typed, "...its completely feasible to assume there would be an infinite amount of heartstone in the world..."

Just think about that for a minute. Try to picture what that would look like. An infinite number of objects in a finite world. Do you see why I find it funny? You also suffer from not being on the same page as fdsaf3. You are ascribing things to him that he did not state. He was not trying to apply his little equation to cuendillar specifically. He was just using it as an example of the possibility of finite results in general. Then you came along with your assumptions and called his understanding of math faulty. The fault is not in his understanding. The fault is in your reading comprehension.

So, you can go ahead and argue about how there can be an infinite amount of heartstone--or rather that there MUST be an infinite amount if it truly is indestructable--in a finite world, or you can just pay more attention to what people are trying to say and get over your tunnel vision.

Lupusdeusest
01-13-2012, 12:55 AM
Oops, and thanks Marie - got into a sleepy muddle with Ishy's freedom cycle. I can count the hours of sleep I had the previous 3 days on one hand. Just woke up again and it actually took me a while to reason why I said that. Embarrassing much! :o
(I can now count the hours on two hands.. lol. Silly thyroid is silly.)

Have we seen anything in WoT that can undo weaves at a touch...? Be interesting to try that. At least we know such a t'a is possible. We have the starting point. (I dislike DEM.)

yks 6nnetu hing
01-13-2012, 02:31 AM
Egwene is not really a 'freak' in her ability to make cuendillar. There were nine Aes Sedai in Salidar who could make it, along with many Accepted and novices (almost two dozen), though none were nearly as proficient at it as Egwene. So just those Aes Sedai who could make cuendillar, not considering speed at the moment, comprise about 3% of the Salidar Aes Sedai. Counting only those Aes Sedai who were relatively fast at making cuendillar (Egwene and Leane and perhaps eventually Kairen, had she not been murdered) lowers the percentage to about 1% of Aes Sedai.

The weave does require the user to be strong in Earth for it to be effective at all.

So it's no wonder that Egwene is so good at making cuendillar. She was prized as a damane by the Seanchan because of her ability in Earth so that they could use her to find ores. And we know that strength in Earth has been dying out in the Third Age:

Anyway, RJ said that there were probably millions of channelers in the Age of Legends:

So, just assuming one million channelers in the Age of Legends, and using the same proportion of channelers found in Salidar who could make cuendillar (about 1% could do it effectively), there would be about 10,000 channelers in the Age of Legends who would be able to make cuendillar at a decent rate.

I think you missed my point: while the overall requirements to make a weave that creates cuendillar are set (and limited severely by strength in metals), there are theoretically an infinite possible number of ways that the actual weave could be made, some more effective than others. Just recall the version of Compulsion Verin used - it's Compulsion alright, but a painstakingly complicated and limited version of Compulsion.

However - and here's the rub - the way Aes Sedai (all channelers?) learn a weave is usually by seeing it made, and once a weave is learned a certain way, trying a different way of spinning the weave is less effective:

TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 1 - To Keep the Bargain

The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha's. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al'Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy—rather, she took pride in her near-sister's accomplishments—but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There was shame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.
The principle of making a gateway with saidar remains the same, but the way the weaves are placed in order to achieve that principle is different and that plays a huge role.

Traveling is an interesting example because the weave must be modified depending on where you're going from and where you're going to. So each time a gateway is made, the possibility of it being the *exact* same weave is practically non-existent. The quote above seems to suggest that there may be differences in making the weave that have nothing to do with location but rather with the principle of how the weave coalesces into a gateway.

even more intriguing, sometimes certain gestures are absolutely necessary for using the Power:

TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Cadsuane swallowed a rueful chuckle as she took her chair. It was well to be reminded that, wilders or not, the Wise Ones were far from ignorant savages. Of course they would know the difficulties. As for hand-waving. . . . Few had channeled where she could see, but she had noticed that they created some weaves without the gestures that sisters used. The hand movements were not truly part of the weave, but in a way they were, because they had been part of learning the weave. Perhaps, once, there had been Aes Sedai who could, say, hurl a ball of fire without some sort of throwing motion, but if so, they were long dead, and their teachings with them. Today, some things just could not be done without the appropriate gestures. There were sisters who claimed they could tell who had taught another sister by which motions she used for which weaves.


But anyways, back to the weave to make cuendillar, the weave that Egwene taught to the AS. She did not learn that weave from anyone, she made it up herself. She got the clues and parameters from Moghedien, but the way to make the weave she made up herself:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets

Salita glowered and hitched her shawl up on her shoulders. Tiana threw up her hands in exasperation. Egwene held her peace. For once, she felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything - at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard - but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest. In any case, no matter who objected or how strenuously, the need for money meant the production of cuendillar would continue. Though as far as she was concerned, the longer before any of it was sold, the better.
Because Egwene made the exact setting of the weave up, I would say its extremely likely that it's not the exact same weave that was used to make cuendillar in the Age of Legends. Who knows - maybe in AoL there were other blocks in place ot making cuendillar - perhaps it was believed to be a Talent or maybe was even more limited than the version Egwene made up... Say, they thought the original metal needed to be of a very specific consistency or pre-worked somehow - but Moghedien didn't know the details of the AoL limitations, so Egwene didn't know them either. And if you don't *know* of a limitation (or firmly believe that there is a limitation, which pretty much amounts to the same thing really) with the OP then it has demonstrably happened that certain things turn out to be very possible indeed. Such as Healing stilling or madness.

Theoretically, even seeing is not necessary to create or hold a weave, though in practice we haven't seen a single blind AS. Probably because of the aboslute knowledge the current channelers have that seeing the weaves is crucial to making them. It certainly helps, I'm sure, but is it necessary?

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 05:06 AM
So, just assuming one million channelers in the Age of Legends, and using the same proportion of channelers found in Salidar who could make cuendillar (about 1% could do it effectively), there would be about 10,000 channelers in the Age of Legends who would be able to make cuendillar at a decent rate.
More, probably, as half of that million channelers would have been men, and generally men have greater strength in Earth than women.

Of course, the assumption of a million channelers is a bit iffy too. We know that the proportion of channelers is a few percent of the total population. If there were one billion people alive in the AOL (about one tenth, give or take a bit, of the current world population), then there would have been between 20 and 30 million channelers around. So there might have been as many as half a million people who could make cuendillar living at any one time in the Age of Legends.

fionwe1987
01-13-2012, 06:54 AM
Egwene is not really a 'freak' in her ability to make cuendillar. There were nine Aes Sedai in Salidar who could make it, along with many Accepted and novices (almost two dozen), though none were nearly as proficient at it as Egwene. So just those Aes Sedai who could make cuendillar, not considering speed at the moment, comprise about 3% of the Salidar Aes Sedai. Counting only those Aes Sedai who were relatively fast at making cuendillar (Egwene and Leane and perhaps eventually Kairen, had she not been murdered) lowers the percentage to about 1% of Aes Sedai.
I said Egwene was a freak because of her extreme proficiency, not because she has the ability at all. Let me put it this way: what Androl is to Gateways and Breowyn is to shields, Egwene is to cuendillar. She is of a very rare proficiency in making Cuendillar.

Now, that probably does stem from her immense abilities with earth. And that kind of Great Strength was incredibly rare.

I also don't think you can take the proportions in the Aes Sedai camp and extrapolate to the Age of Legends with any exactness. By that standard, Egwene would have been the strongest Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, which we know is far from the truth. The Aes Sedai are a weighted sample, not a random one. Picking any distribution of an ability among them as a general indication of such ability is not workable.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 07:07 AM
I also don't think you can take the proportions in the Aes Sedai camp and extrapolate to the Age of Legends with any exactness. By that standard, Egwene would have been the strongest Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, which we know is far from the truth. The Aes Sedai are a weighted sample, not a random one. Picking any distribution of an ability among them as a general indication of such ability is not workable.
It does provide a lower limit, though. We keep hearing that in the past, AS were stronger and had more Talents. If that is true (and all indications are that it is correct), then there would have been a lot more, not fewer, than our current estimates already indicate.

There are no good arguments to say that at any time, fewer than 100,000 AS in the Age of Legends were capable of making cuendillar. There do seem to be fairly strong arguments to put the number significantly higher than that. Given that fact, I would say that cuendillar production had not been a marginal thing, and consequently, there has to be some other sort of limitation on the total amount of cuendillar in the world.
That limitation can be a change in the laws of physics (well, channeling, if you wanna be picky), but there is no evidence supporting this at all. Or it can be that cuendillar is not actually eternal after all, an idea for which there is evidence.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-13-2012, 07:20 AM
It does provide a lower limit, though. We keep hearing that in the past, AS were stronger and had more Talents. If that is true (and all indications are that it is correct), then there would have been a lot more, not fewer, than our current estimates already indicate.

that is not entirely correct. One of the Forsaken (I think it was Demandred, but I can't find the quote so maybe it was someone else) muses on all these new Talents that keep cropping up. So yes, while many have been lost apparently new ones have sprung up. Bonding was completely unknown in AoL, for instance.

ETA: found it - commenting on Aviendha's Talent of unraveling a weave:

TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving

He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 07:39 AM
True, and apparently no one in the AoL knew how to make Portal Stones, so Moridin (it's his PoV) should have been aware that his Age hadn't had a complete arsenal of knowledge anyway.
Still, it remains up to the defenders of the "cuendillar production only happens in a limited number of Turns" to provide some evidence to show that they have a case.

fionwe1987
01-13-2012, 08:04 AM
It does provide a lower limit, though. We keep hearing that in the past, AS were stronger and had more Talents. If that is true (and all indications are that it is correct), then there would have been a lot more, not fewer, than our current estimates already indicate.
Not necessarily. There may just be more women in this collection of Aes Sedai that was normal even in the AoL. Or, the Talent may have risen in proportion, even as strength in Earth decreased. We don't even know if Egwene's weave is how it was done in the AoL, as someone pointed out. Maybe her weave is more efficient.

Either way, my chief point was not that few in the AoL could make cuendillar. Maybe half a million could, most at a slow enough pace that they never did it all the time. What I'm saying is that very very few would have been able to do it like Egwene can.

That limitation can be a change in the laws of physics (well, channeling, if you wanna be picky), but there is no evidence supporting this at all.
There's all sorts of proof for that. Whatever do you mean?

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 10:24 AM
There's all sorts of proof for that. Whatever do you mean?
Wait, what?

Where did you find evidence relating to how precisely channeling works, what it could and could not do, in other Turns (not merely other Ages of this Turn) of the Wheel?

That is what would be needed to make the "making cuendillar is only possible in a limited number of Turns" case, and, as far as I know, the only plausible evidence coming from a previous Turn which we've come across is the Fisher game piece which annoys Moridin so much.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 10:30 AM
Where did you find evidence relating to how precisely channeling works, what it could and could not do, in other Turns (not merely other Ages of this Turn) of the Wheel

This is exactly the logical fallacy I've been pointing out to you since the beginning. This is why I've stopped writing long, logical, and thoughtful responses in this thread. It's a joke. You're selectively applying logic when it suits you and flagrantly ignoring your own logical framework when it doesn't support your own ideas.

In my opinion, this is a dead horse that's been beaten for far too long. It's frustrating to me because I so desperately want to have discussions on some of these topics, but when (as Sukoto aptly pointed out) people rely heavily on tunnel vision and refuse to get over it, there can be no progress.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 10:56 AM
Your only evidence is circular reasoning, and that bugs me.

-There is only a small amount of cuendillar because it is only produced in a finite number of Turns.
-The proof that cuendillar is only produced in a finite number of turns is the fact that there is only a small amount of it.

That is the sum total of your evidence, and put like that, the circularity should be fairly obvious. The attempts to give a sum with an infinite number terms but a finite outcome fail for the simple reason that most of the terms in that sum would have to infinitesimally small, and a piece of cuendillar smaller than an atom simply makes no sense, let alone the question of why someone would bother producing it.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 11:04 AM
Oh, for the love of God!

Guys, at some point in the cycle, the Cuendillar breaks down and loses its durability. It probably happens when the True Source goes away. That is the only logical answer. At some point the stuff has to break down or our heroes would be sitting on mountains of it. We know that humans are going to lose the ability to channel at some point so the two events are probably linked.

eht slat meit
01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Something to consider here is that cuendillar requires a base (iron) that only has a finite source, that cuendillar is not saidar'ed out of thin air. Even if all other needs were ignored, the entire market of iron cornered by the channelers, every last bit of iron translated to cuendillar, you'd still have only as much as could be produced from that supply.

This of course ignores the subjective reality, that people aren't going to make that much cuendillar and take that much effort to capture the entire resource without good reason.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 11:13 AM
Also, you're all probably putting more thought into this than RJ did.

Think about this for a moment. The students at Rand's academy made a steam wagon right? Okay, so where do they get the coal for the engine? You see, the only reason we have coal on our planet is that the Earth changed naturally over millions of years and allowed coal to form. But unless one of the WOT ages includes a Mesozoic Era that lasts for millions of years, fossil fuels shouldn't exist in Randland. But they do.

This is one of those "It's just a story" moments where you don't try to apply real-world logic to the book.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 11:21 AM
Your only evidence is circular reasoning, and that bugs me.

What, a logical fallacy bugs you? You certainly are selective with when you allow yourself to be bothered by illogical statements!

-There is only a small amount of cuendillar because it is only produced in a finite number of Turns.
-The proof that cuendillar is only produced in a finite number of turns is the fact that there is only a small amount of it.

That would indeed be a circular argument. Now, were I actually making that argument, I would agree with you. I am not, however, making that argument. You are making it for me. Essentially, you are arguing with yourself.

That is the sum total of your evidence, and put like that, the circularity should be fairly obvious.

I have no sum of evidence because I present no argument about the indestructibility of cuendillar. It's irrelevant to my point. If you had even the tiniest shred of reading comprehension, you would understand this. YOU seem to be making my case by putting words in my mouth. Go back and read the thread sufficiently many times so that you understand this point. It's really, really important.

The attempts

Attempt. Singular.

...to give a sum with an infinite number terms but a finite outcome fail for the simple reason that most of the terms in that sum would have to infinitesimally small, and a piece of cuendillar smaller than an atom simply makes no sense, let alone the question of why someone would bother producing it.

This is nonsense. I'm choosing not to respond. If you don't understand why this is nonsense, I'm completely at a loss.

Again, get elementary reading comprehension skills. Stop making logically fallacious arguments and then acting aggrieved that the arguments you are pretending I'm making aren't logical. Stop with the strawman arguments. Go back and read my posts again. Try to understand what I'm saying instead of pretending I'm saying something altogether different.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 11:45 AM
The students at Rand's academy made a steam wagon right? Okay, so where do they get the coal for the engine?
It is possible to run a steam engine using a wood fire. Dried elephant dung would probably work too, though I've never heard of anyone actually putting that to the test, and I know that wood has been used.
A problem, which becomes apparent after a while (when lots of people start using steam engines), is of course that the supply of wood is somewhat limited, and takes years to grow back. Still, that doesn't mean that it can't work, only that it is a limiting factor to the use of steam power.

Grig
01-13-2012, 12:03 PM
Even if all other needs were ignored, the entire market of iron cornered by the channelers, every last bit of iron translated to cuendillar, you'd still have only as much as could be produced from that supply.

Well, that just brings up this question: if cuendillar evolves from iron, why is there still iron?

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 12:08 PM
Well, that just brings up this question: if cuendillar evolves from iron, why is there still iron?
Well, there is a lot of iron. About 30% of the mass of Earth is iron. Most of that is unavailable, of course. But regular Breakings will stir things up nicely, making the production of lots of cuendillar possible.

Still, it is indeed a good question, as any limited amount can be used up, given enough time and an absence of recycling.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 12:27 PM
It is possible to run a steam engine using a wood fire. Dried elephant dung would probably work too, though I've never heard of anyone actually putting that to the test, and I know that wood has been used.
A problem, which becomes apparent after a while (when lots of people start using steam engines), is of course that the supply of wood is somewhat limited, and takes years to grow back. Still, that doesn't mean that it can't work, only that it is a limiting factor to the use of steam power.

True or false: Aiel use coals in a sweat tent.

And that is also beside the point which is that this is a god-damned book and not even one that makes logical consistency a very high priority.


Nynaeve can heal a woman's broken arm just as well as a man's but she can't heal a woman's severing.

Okay... If you say so, RJ.

Sukoto
01-13-2012, 01:22 PM
Oh, for the love of God!

Guys, at some point in the cycle, the Cuendillar breaks down and loses its durability. It probably happens when the True Source goes away. That is the only logical answer. At some point the stuff has to break down or our heroes would be sitting on mountains of it. We know that humans are going to lose the ability to channel at some point so the two events are probably linked.
You seem exasperated by the arguments. I am just amused by them. I know it's a book, and of course mathematics cannot be really applied to something that is fictional. But the concept is interesting to discuss. The arguments stem from a misunderstanding of what is being stated, not from the issue of cuendillar itself.

And kudos to the guy/girl who said we're like the White Ajah who meets in the basement of the White Tower. It's just so uselessly geeky/nerdy it's funny.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 02:05 PM
For me, at this point it's personal.

Verin Mathwin
01-13-2012, 02:41 PM
I asked this question on the cuendillar thread... but they were too concerned over their silly argument about infinite vs. finite amounts of cuendillar.


Going with the Randlanders theory that cuendillar is indestructible (I know it isn't, but that's not important here) why is there such an emphasis on the fact that anything you do to destroy cuendillar only makes it stronger? How do you make an already indestructible thing stronger, and how can you tell the difference between a weaker and stronger indestructible item? Never made sense to me.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 03:39 PM
It is not sensible, it is cuendillar. The more questions you ask about it, the more stubborn it becomes about not answering them.

Which, admittedly, isn't all that more sensible than the "it becomes stronger" idea.
Maybe, if you have very weak cuendillar, you can stretch it, or perhaps even chew it, like bubble gum? Breaking it would then still be impossible, and the longer you chew the harder it gets.

Cortar
01-13-2012, 03:42 PM
Now I have to chuckle at what you have just typed. Like I said, you have tunnel vision. You have just typed, "...its completely feasible to assume there would be an infinite amount of heartstone in the world..."

Just think about that for a minute. Try to picture what that would look like. An infinite number of objects in a finite world. Do you see why I find it funny?

You talk about tunnel vision when you are the worst sufferer of it! MY ENTIRE POINT OF THE POST WAS IF CUENDILAR IS INDESTRUCTIBLE THE ENTIRE SHOULD SHOULD BE FILLED TO THE BRINK WITH IT. But obviously since this is not the case, there is a somewhat easy way to destroy it, or RJ made a mistake in his worldbuilding.


You also suffer from not being on the same page as fdsaf3. You are ascribing things to him that he did not state. He was not trying to apply his little equation to cuendillar specifically. He was just using it as an example of the possibility of finite results in general. Then you came along with your assumptions and called his understanding of math faulty. The fault is not in his understanding. The fault is in your reading comprehension.

.... You should learn about something called "context." He gave his little "math proof" in response to my post. It is only logical to say that he is applying it to the question at hand otherwise why would he bring it up out of context. You talk like you know what he was thinking. Neither of us do so we can only look at what he said and assume the simplest explanation backed by evidence and context.



So, you can go ahead and argue about how there can be an infinite amount of heartstone--or rather that there MUST be an infinite amount if it truly is indestructable--in a finite world, or you can just pay more attention to what people are trying to say and get over your tunnel vision.

... I will stand by my statement because it is TRUE you can live in the world of misunderstanding but I will not.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 04:16 PM
You should learn about something called "context." He gave his little "math proof" in response to my post. It is only logical to say that he is applying it to the question at hand otherwise why would he bring it up out of context. You talk like you know what he was thinking. Neither of us do so we can only look at what he said and assume the simplest explanation backed by evidence and context.

For someone raging so hard about understanding context, you have awful reading comprehension. I notice that none of your responses have been to me directly. Rather, you prefer to hide behind oblique criticisms directed to other people. Classy.

I have been patient, I have explained myself more times than I should have, and yet you still fail to grasp what is a relatively simple concept. I can only conclude at this point that your lack of reading comprehension is intentional. At first I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but not any more.

I'll challenge you and Gonzo the same way. Both of you seem to have many of the same issues.

Go back to the first page of the thread and read everything I wrote again. Read it a few times if you need to. Understand the argument I'm making and how it pertains to your question. Think. Don't respond critically to this post, don't sit here and rage and accuse other people of not understanding context. Just read what I wrote, and think. My entire point has been made a few times now, and I won't explain it again. All I can do is direct you to read everything again and again until you get it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 04:28 PM
All right, I'll retry again. Starting with your first post.
Sorry if this is nitpicky, but there doesn't have to be an infinite amount of cuendillar lying around. For one thing, not every Age has channelers. For another, it's a big assumption that in every Age where there are channelers the weave for cuendillar is known.
An Age is part of a Turn. Every Turn has 7 Ages. Not every Age has channelers, but there is no reason at all to assume that there are Turns without channelers.

It is a far smaller assumption than you seem to make that in every "Second Age" there would be channelers who know how to make cuendillar, as that's necessary to make the seals on the prison which then hold the DO until the end of the Third Age. Thus, we can indeed assume (unless there is some evidence to the contrary) that in every Turn someone knows how to make cuendillar, even if that is probably not true in every Age.


Finally, I'm not entirely sure what "an infinite amount of cuendillar" even means. But let's say that we are outside of time and can know the total amount of cuendillar in the world. Your statement that the total amount must be infinite isn't necessarily true. The best and easiest way for me to explain this is with a mathematical concept of an infinite sum. Say production of cuendillar follows an oversimplified functional form of 1/2^A where A is the Age, or number of turnings of the Wheel of Time. Following the rules of infinite sums, this turns out to be 2, not infinity. I'm not quite sure what 2 means in this case, but it's irrelevant. My point is that (and this is a minor quibble, despite how I'm going on and on about it) there doesn't necessarily have to be an infinite amount of cuendillar in the world.
The amount need not be infinite if things work out as you suggest here.

But on the other hand, if a more reasonable scheme is used, and we assume that some cuendillar is made in every Turn, or even just in many of them, then things are a lot more dire.
The cuendillar which goes into the seals gets destroyed, I'm willing to grant that. But the rest of the cuendillar which is made, say practicing to learn how to make those seals, will remain. So every Turn a bit more iron is converted. If that is not somehow destroyed, then it adds up. And up. And up. And so forth.
No matter how small the amount per Turn, if you stack enough Turns after each other the amount of cuendillar becomes larger than the amount of available iron, whereupon iron would be more expensive (and more useful, probably) than cuendillar. Yet that has not happened.

Why not?
That is the question. I've given my answer to it a number of times, as you may remember.

eht slat meit
01-13-2012, 08:47 PM
Well, that just brings up this question: if cuendillar evolves from iron, why is there still iron?

Because cuendillar has yet to be identified as an effective alternative resource to iron - all items made from cuendillar must be considered finished products. It's not like putting a coat of paint on it, or even creating a badly designed set of iron. You can't melt it down, break it down, or start over in any way. You're stuck with it.

And of course, there's the fact that it simply isn't -that- easy to come by iron. Even if you had someone with an OP Talent for locating Iron, the world's a big place, and it's not a whole lot different (except in margin of error) than having any other skilled minerologist look for the stuff.

I don't know enough about iron's formation to properly grasp it, but my understanding is that is is not a renewable resource, even if reusable.

This limits use of iron to those Ages that have the resources to do so, and the adaptation of that iron to Ages that use the OP, and the combined usage of the two are restricted even further.

Which brings it back to the original point - cuendillar as a worthwhile product. So far it's been treated as a luxury item for those interested in its value as a rare and unique piece.

On a side note, unless I'm missing a point somewhere, there's nothing to suggest that a means of destroying cuendillar can't be found, that it is only indestructible in terms of the knowledge base of the previous and current Ages; in an Age where it is actually used as weapon and armor, it will be far more likely to find a counter to it. Nature of the war-beast.

Lupusdeusest
01-13-2012, 08:56 PM
It is not sensible, it is cuendillar. The more questions you ask about it, the more stubborn it becomes about not answering them.

Which, admittedly, isn't all that more sensible than the "it becomes stronger" idea.
Maybe, if you have very weak cuendillar, you can stretch it, or perhaps even chew it, like bubble gum? Breaking it would then still be impossible, and the longer you chew the harder it gets.


Oh, you had to.

But in response to the question - maybe it's a matter of NOT doing things to the cuendillar. I know this sounds like another silly answer, but it's a serious one, and the only answer I can see is to remove the contact with the OP or unmake it.
I've just, of course, tried to answer "how to unmake cuendillar" rather than "why the emphasis". But the first of those answers - the deliberately having cuendillar cut off from all influences - is a not-doing-anything.
I need coffee.

Terez
01-13-2012, 09:35 PM
Going with the Randlanders theory that cuendillar is indestructible (I know it isn't, but that's not important here)I'm not so sure it's unimportant. Assuming that channeling at cuendillar does in fact make it stronger (i.e. resistant to the two known ways of destroying it), that knowledge might have been passed along with the general lore. It's a little odd that the contradiction wasn't questioned, but some of the quotes say there is no 'known' way to destroy it, hinting that it is at least understood that there is some theoretical possibility that it could be destroyed.

Terez
01-13-2012, 09:45 PM
Why not?Perhaps someone who can use the True Power does a clean-up mission every now and then.

eht slat meit
01-13-2012, 10:16 PM
I asked this question on the cuendillar thread... but they were too concerned over their silly argument about infinite vs. finite amounts of cuendillar.


Going with the Randlanders theory that cuendillar is indestructible (I know it isn't, but that's not important here) why is there such an emphasis on the fact that anything you do to destroy cuendillar only makes it stronger? How do you make an already indestructible thing stronger, and how can you tell the difference between a weaker and stronger indestructible item? Never made sense to me.

From the weaves that are required to make cuendillar (Earth, Air, Fire), I get the distinct impression that it (OP) replicating in its own fashion, the process of smelting iron into white hot iron, and whatever elements of the OP put into the process are retained by the iron.

This means that any of the normal most damaging elements, earth and fire, only serve to refine the process - burning, supplementing alloys, etc. Seems to be the internal logic, anyway.

How to reverse that? Not really sure - white cast iron is far stronger, but more brittle... perhaps drawing heat from the item would cause it to destabilize, and it would make sense that the True Power is able to do something like that - it's probably done the like before, probably generating tremendous amounts of heat into the troposphere to terminally disrupt the weather.

Can that be done with weaves? Drawing fire/heat out rather than putting it in? Don't know.

AbbeyRoad
01-13-2012, 10:21 PM
But the rest of the cuendillar which is made, say practicing to learn how to make those seals, will remain.
Your premise is false. Cuendillar is not indestructible.

Terez
01-13-2012, 10:28 PM
Going to move these posts into the cuendillar thread.

Marie Curie 7
01-13-2012, 10:35 PM
I think you missed my point: while the overall requirements to make a weave that creates cuendillar are set (and limited severely by strength in metals), there are theoretically an infinite possible number of ways that the actual weave could be made, some more effective than others. Just recall the version of Compulsion Verin used - it's Compulsion alright, but a painstakingly complicated and limited version of Compulsion.

Yeah, I understood your point the first time. But my point was that there's really no reason to assume that any difficulties in performing the cuendillar weave are because Egwene made it up. Yes, she did make it up, but she also figured out at least one other weave (Traveling) that nobody had any problems with. In addition, the reasons why other channelers are likely to have had difficulties with the cuendillar weave (i.e., in making cuendillar as fast as Egwene) have been spelled out by RJ: (1) Making cuendillar requires strength in Earth above all. (2) Egwene is very strong in Earth. (3) Strength in Earth is not generally something that female channelers have much of, anyway. (4) Strength in Earth has faded significantly during the Third Age.

However - and here's the rub - the way Aes Sedai (all channelers?) learn a weave is usually by seeing it made, and once a weave is learned a certain way, trying a different way of spinning the weave is less effective:
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 1 - To Keep the Bargain

The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha's. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al'Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy—rather, she took pride in her near-sister's accomplishments—but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There was shame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.

The principle of making a gateway with saidar remains the same, but the way the weaves are placed in order to achieve that principle is different and that plays a huge role.

Yeah, I am aware of the difficulties that channelers face when trying to learn another weave that does essentially the same thing as one they already know. But there are established limits to those difficulties. For example, many of the Aes Sedai who learned Nynaeve's new way of Healing were able to form the weaves because they were different enough from the old ones:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 23 – Call to a Sitting

"Sharina isn't only well-behaved," Tiana continued blithely, "she is showing a great skill with Nynaeve's new way of Healing. Like a number of the older novices. Most were village Wise Women of one sort or another, though I don't see how that can have any bearing. One was a noble in Murandy."

Romanda tripped over her own heel and staggered two steps, arms flailing for balance, before she could catch herself and gather her shawl. Tiana put a hand on her arm to steady her. murmuring about the un-evenness of the walkway's planking, but she shook it off. Sharina had a gift for the new Healing? And a number of the older women? She herself had learned the new way, but while it was different enough from the old that the second-learned weave limitation seemed not to apply, she had no great gift for it. Not nearly what she had for the old method.

So the issue is that if a second weave is similar enough to the first one taught, then a channeler likely will have difficulty learning the second way (e.g., Aviendha's original gateway weave vs. the weave that Egwene figured out). However, if the weaves are different enough, then both can be learned and used (e.g., the old method of Healing vs. Nynaeve's new method). And yeah, that also includes the use of gestures, etc.

The point is that in Aviendha's case, she had already learned how to make the weave in one particular way, and therefore had trouble making it in a slightly different way.

However, where the problems with other channelers making cuendillar differ from your examples of making gateways or performing weaves with requisite gestures is that none of the Aes Sedai, novices, or Accepted had ever made cuendillar before. So all those difficulties as a result of trying to form weaves that were too similar to other weaves that a channeler had previously learned can be thrown out – any difficulties that others have had in making cuendillar are not related.


But anyways, back to the weave to make cuendillar, the weave that Egwene taught to the AS. She did not learn that weave from anyone, she made it up herself. She got the clues and parameters from Moghedien, but the way to make the weave she made up herself:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets

Salita glowered and hitched her shawl up on her shoulders. Tiana threw up her hands in exasperation. Egwene held her peace. For once, she felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything - at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard - but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest. In any case, no matter who objected or how strenuously, the need for money meant the production of cuendillar would continue. Though as far as she was concerned, the longer before any of it was sold, the better.

Yeah, Egwene made up the weave for making cuendillar based on hints from Moghedien. As your quote shows above, she also figured out the Traveling weave essentially on her own. And nobody seems to have had any serious difficulties in learning or using the Traveling weave, other than the fact that a certain minimum strength in the Power is required to form the weave (which seems to have been the case in the AoL as well).


Because Egwene made the exact setting of the weave up, I would say its extremely likely that it's not the exact same weave that was used to make cuendillar in the Age of Legends. Who knows - maybe in AoL there were other blocks in place ot making cuendillar - perhaps it was believed to be a Talent or maybe was even more limited than the version Egwene made up... Say, they thought the original metal needed to be of a very specific consistency or pre-worked somehow - but Moghedien didn't know the details of the AoL limitations, so Egwene didn't know them either. And if you don't *know* of a limitation (or firmly believe that there is a limitation, which pretty much amounts to the same thing really) with the OP then it has demonstrably happened that certain things turn out to be very possible indeed. Such as Healing stilling or madness.

And Nynaeve figured out the new Healing weave all on her own, but yet RJ indicated that it's the same method that Damer Flinn figured out for saidin:

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996 (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/ce8c59266ae2cc66?&q=channel+interview)

Rog in CT: Rand recovered very quickly from his dual Healing...is this because of the way men Heal or because of the Warder bond...or both?

RJ: Partly the Warder bond and partly the kind of Healing that was used on him. It should be obvious that Damer Flinn has discovered the same method of Healing that Nynaeve uses and of course, he still is not completely Healed, remember.

So there is apparently some natural consistency in how weaves must generally be formed to perform certain tasks. I do agree with you, though, that part of the reason that Third Agers have figured out new uses of the One Power, such as Warder Bonds and Healing severing, is that they are ignorant of many of the perceived limitations in the Age of Legends. And even Cadsuane has fretted about the lack of originality of many channelers:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 14 – A Box Opens

It was strange to her how few Aes Sedai learned to innovate with the One Power. They memorized time-tested and traditional weaves, but gave barely a thought for what else they could do. True, experimenting with the One Power could be disastrous, but many simple extrapolations could be made without danger. Her weave for this box was one such. Until recently, she'd used a standard weave of Fire, Spirit and Air to destroy any documents in the box if an intruder opened it. Effective, if a bit unimaginative.


Theoretically, even seeing is not necessary to create or hold a weave, though in practice we haven't seen a single blind AS. Probably because of the aboslute knowledge the current channelers have that seeing the weaves is crucial to making them. It certainly helps, I'm sure, but is it necessary?

No, it's not necessary:

RJ's blog 22 November 2005 "I'M BAAAA-AAACK" (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-331-im-baaaa-aaack/)

Someone asked how difficult it is for a blind person to channel, but I didn't make a note of who. In any case, it is difficult but not impossible. The different flows have different feels, though saying they have different flavors might be as accurate. In the comic, we use colors, not because they actually have colors but because they also can be told apart by sight. Someone who was blind and who tried to learn to channel would be able to differentiate between flows of the Five Powers. The difficulty would be in learning to make the weaves.

Marie Curie 7
01-13-2012, 10:42 PM
So, just assuming one million channelers in the Age of Legends, and using the same proportion of channelers found in Salidar who could make cuendillar (about 1% could do it effectively), there would be about 10,000 channelers in the Age of Legends who would be able to make cuendillar at a decent rate.

More, probably, as half of that million channelers would have been men, and generally men have greater strength in Earth than women.

I didn't increase my estimate of the approximate percentage of those who could make cuendillar at a reasonable rate (~1%) in order to account for men because: (1) We don't know anything about the saidin weave for making cuendillar, other than it is possible for men to make it. (2) It may be that if the saidin-based cuendillar weave also involves Earth, Air, and Fire, then it might be just as difficult for men since they are not generally proficient in Air.


Of course, the assumption of a million channelers is a bit iffy too. We know that the proportion of channelers is a few percent of the total population. If there were one billion people alive in the AOL (about one tenth, give or take a bit, of the current world population), then there would have been between 20 and 30 million channelers around. So there might have been as many as half a million people who could make cuendillar living at any one time in the Age of Legends.

Yeah, I essentially was trying to set a lower limit. Since RJ said there could be hundreds of thousands, more likely millions, of channelers in the Age of Legends, I just used 1 million as a base estimate. It seems clear that the "hundreds of thousands" amount is way too low, particularly since RJ said that about 3% of the population in the Age of Legends could channel.

And you're right, even a channeling population of 1 million would only correspond to a total population of around 33 million, which seems quite low for the Age of Legends, given the technologically-advanced society and longer lifespans.

So I would say that 10,000 channelers who could make cuendillar at an adequate rate in the Age of Legends is a very low estimate – it is more likely to have been 100,000 or more.

Sukoto
01-13-2012, 10:57 PM
It is a far smaller assumption than you seem to make that in every "Second Age" there would be channelers who know how to make cuendillar, as that's necessary to make the seals on the prison which then hold the DO until the end of the Third Age. Thus, we can indeed assume (unless there is some evidence to the contrary) that in every Turn someone knows how to make cuendillar, even if that is probably not true in every Age.

But on the other hand, if a more reasonable scheme is used, and we assume that some cuendillar is made in every Turn, or even just in many of them, then things are a lot more dire.
The cuendillar which goes into the seals gets destroyed, I'm willing to grant that. But the rest of the cuendillar which is made, say practicing to learn how to make those seals, will remain. So every Turn a bit more iron is converted. If that is not somehow destroyed, then it adds up. And up. And up. And so forth.
No matter how small the amount per Turn, if you stack enough Turns after each other the amount of cuendillar becomes larger than the amount of available iron, whereupon iron would be more expensive (and more useful, probably) than cuendillar. Yet that has not happened.

Why not?
That is the question. I've given my answer to it a number of times, as you may remember.
Gonzo, you're really going on a big assumption that things happen pretty much the same way every Turning. I can't find any interview quotes claiming that the bore is always sealed using cuendillar. If RJ, or BS, didn't come out and say cuendillar was an essential part of every Turning, then why do you think it is? Cuendillar is just a material. I'm sure in other Turnings there were other discoveries made, other Talents that surfaced that enabled the Dragon to beat the DO. I just don't see why cuendillar must absolutely be in the picture every time.

Two possibilities:
1. It is possible for cuendillar to revert to iron, either when the OP goes away or when the cuendillar is destroyed (however it is done).
2. Cuendillar has only been made in a limited number of Turnings, therefore the supply of iron has not been significantly diminished by the making of cuendillar.

This is fiction, so the author could just pick the one he likes better, or a mixture of both, or whatever. I guess it would kind of go against the grain of the books for cuendillar to hang around after the OP goes away in a Turning. Then you'd have ages that resemble real life where something 'magical' is discovered when magic obviously doesn't exist, and that would be weird. If RJ had ever written about an age where the OP wasn't around, I don't think he would have included cuendillar in that age.

Oh yeah, and just to randomly add my two cents to all those 'construction with cuendillar' comments way back there, remember Whitebridge. They did make big things out of cuendillar in the AoL. Just not buildings, it seems. Does anyone else find it curious that both the river and the bridge survived the breaking together, when entire oceans were displaced, and a city that was once on a coast ended up on the side of a mountain? Such a cataclysmic event as the breaking could have easily changed the course of a little river. Unless the river just happened to find it's way perfectly back underneath Whitebridge after the breaking... I dunno. Weird.

Marie Curie 7
01-13-2012, 11:19 PM
Also, you're all probably putting more thought into this than RJ did.

Think about this for a moment. The students at Rand's academy made a steam wagon right? Okay, so where do they get the coal for the engine? You see, the only reason we have coal on our planet is that the Earth changed naturally over millions of years and allowed coal to form. But unless one of the WOT ages includes a Mesozoic Era that lasts for millions of years, fossil fuels shouldn't exist in Randland. But they do.

And who says that one or more of the Ages couldn't last for millions of years? RJ never specified the lengths or the events occurring in most of the other Ages.

In any case, many of the references in WoT about 'coal' really refer to charcoal. There are numerous references to charcoal burners and the like. Just a few examples:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 54 – Into the Stone

The lid of the tin box was hot enough that he had to blow on his fingers twice before he could pry it off – he wished he had whatever Aludra's trick had been, lighting that lantern so easily – to expose the dark bit of charcoal inside, lying on a bed of sand. The wire handle came off to make tongs, and a little blowing had the coal glowing red again. He touched the hot coal to the knotted fuses, let tongs and coal fall over the side of the wall as the fuses hissed into flame, snatched up his quarterstaff and darted back along the wall.

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 16 – Unexpected Absences

"There can't be that many Shaido," Egwene muttered. No herbs had been added to the second batch of charcoal, which was dying down in faint embers, and her eyes ached from the smoke that hung thin in the air. Channeling to get rid of it would disperse the last warmth, too. "Some of this must be bandits' work." After all, who could tell a village emptied by people fleeing brigands from one emptied by Shaido? Especially at third hand, or fifth. "There are certainly enough bandits around to account for some of it." Most calling themselves Dragonsworn, which was no help at all. She worked her shoulders to loosen a few of the knots in her muscles.

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 30 – What the Oath Rod Can Do

Outside, high-wheeled carts trundled along the frozen ruts of the camp streets, filled with big water barrels or piles of split firewood and sacks of charcoal, the drivers and the fellows riding behind alike enveloped in their cloaks against the cold. As usual, families of novices hurried along the wooden walkways, usually managing to make their courtesies to passing Aes Sedai without slowing. Failure in the proper respects to a sister could earn a switching, but so could tardiness, and teachers were generally less tolerant than Aes Sedai encountered in passing, who at least might make allowances for why a novice went rushing by.


In addition, most of the explicit references to 'coal' or 'coals' in WoT correspond to the use of wood fires and the charred remains after the wood has burned down. Again, a few examples:

TITLE: New Spring
CHAPTER: 3 - Practice

Siuan hastily moved three pieces of split wood to the fire-irons on the hearth - the woodbox was almost empty; serving men brought Aes Sedai their firewood, but Accepted had to carry theirs up themselves - then grunted when she discovered that her efforts at banking the coals of last night's fire had failed. No doubt in a hurry to reach the Amyrlin's chambers, she had not covered them with ashes well enough to stop them from burning out. A frown creased her forehead for a moment, and then Moiraine felt that small tingle again as the light of saidar briefly surrounded the other woman. Any woman who could channel could feel another wielding the Power if she was close enough, but the tingle was unusual. Women who spent a lot of time together in their training sometimes felt it, but the sensation was supposed to fade away over time. Hers and Siuan's never had. Sometimes Moiraine thought it was a sign of how close their friendship was. When the glow winked out, the short lengths of log were burning merrily.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 9 – Tellings of the Wheel

Rand sat bolt upright, gasping for breath and shivering, staring. Tam was still asleep on the bed. Slowly his breathing slowed. Half-consumed logs blazed in the fireplace with a good bed of coals built up around the fire irons; someone had been there to tend it while he slept. A blanket lay at his feet, where it had fallen when he woke. The makeshift litter was gone, too, and his and Tam's cloaks had been hung by the door.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 29 – Eyes Without Pity

Elyas pushed for speed across the brown grass flatland as if trying to make up for the time spent with the Traveling People, setting a pace southward that had even Bela grateful to stop when twilight deepened. Despite his desire for haste, though, he took precautions he had not taken before. At night they had a fire only if there was dead wood already on the ground. He would not let them break so much as a twig off of a standing tree. The fires he made were small, and always hidden in a pit carefully dug where he had cut away a plug of sod. As soon as their meal was prepared, he buried the coals and replaced the plug. Before they set out again in the gray false dawn, he went over the campsite inch by inch to make sure there was no sign that anyone had ever been there. He even righted overturned rocks and straightened bent-down weeds. He did it quickly, never taking more than a few minutes, but they did not leave until he was satisfied.

Presumably you get the picture.


True or false: Aiel use coals in a sweat tent.

False. They used heated rocks, not coal.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 35 - Sharp Lessons

"Now that that is settled," Bair said, "let us enjoy the steam in silence while we can. There is much for some of us yet to do tonight, and for nights to come, if we are to bring a gathering to Alcair Dal for Rand al'Thor." "Men always find ways to make work for women," Amys said. "Why should Rand al'Thor be different?" Quiet settled over the tent except for the hiss when Aviendha tossed more water on the hot rocks. The Wise Ones sat with hands on knees, breathing deeply. It was really quite pleasant, even relaxing, the damp heat, the slick, cleansing feel of sweat on the skin. Egwene thought it was worth missing a little sleep.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 24 - An Embassy

On the other hand, she was hardly up to returning to the city. She joined the Wise Ones in their sweat tent - for once they did not make her pour water over the hot rocks; Rodera did that - luxuriating in the damp heat as it relaxed her muscles, and only left because Rhuarc and two other clan chiefs, Timolan of the Miagoma and Indirian of the Codarra, joined them, tall massive graying men with hard sober faces. That sent her diving out of the tent to hastily wrap her shawl around her. She always expected to hear laughter when she did that, but the Aiel never seemed to understand why she hurried from the sweat tent whenever men came in. It would have fit right into Aiel humor if they had, but luckily they just did not make the connection, for which she was very glad.


And that is also beside the point which is that this is a god-damned book and not even one that makes logical consistency a very high priority.

Nynaeve can heal a woman's broken arm just as well as a man's but she can't heal a woman's severing.

Okay... If you say so, RJ.

Considering that Healing a broken arm involves healing only physical problems - the broken bone, reconnecting tendons, etc. - whereas Healing severing involves healing both physical as well as metaphysical problems (since both body and soul are important in channeling), I don't really see what the big deal is with this example.

Furthermore, just because you don't think that there is much logical consistency in the Wheel of Time doesn't necessarily mean that you're correct. Could be you just haven't looked close enough: ;)

Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - December 1993

One thing -- don't think you've reached bottom in your digging. I tried to make the books fairly simple on the surface, and quite complex underneath. You've dug up a number of points that I thought I had buried well enough that they wouldn't come to light for some time yet (don't expect me to say which ones), and you've also dug up one or two that I never buried in the first place (no hints there, either). Jordan's Law, I think, can better be stated along these lines: "Ah, you think you know how the game goes now? Very good, gentlemen. What say we increase the bets just to make it interesting?"


And RJ on his magic systems:

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A, Jul, 2002

Question: How does your knowledge of physics influence your idea of channeling and the Talents involved in the books, such as Traveling, Skimming, etc? Do you have other hobbies or talents that influence your writing?

Robert Jordan: My knowledge of physics influenced channeling to the extent that I have attempted to treat channeling as if it were a form of science and engineering rather than magic. You might say that the Laws of Thermodynamics apply in altered form. I expect that my reading in history has influenced the books more than my knowledge of physics or engineering. I have not tried to copy any actual historical culture or period, but a knowledge of the way things actually were done at various times has helped shape my vision of the world of The Wheel, as has the study of cultures meeting that are strange to one another, and cultures undergoing change, willingly or, as is more often the case, unwillingly. I used to spend summers working on my grandfather’s farm, a very old-fashioned set-up even then, so I have some feel for country life, and I like to hunt and fish, and spent a good part of my growing up in the woods or on the water, so I have a fair feel for the outdoors and the forests, which also helps. And of course, I can use a little of my Vietnam experience. Not for setting out the actual battles, but because I know firsthand the confusion of battle and what it is like to try to maintain some semblance or order while all around you random events are pushing everything toward chaos.

Sci Fi Weekly Interview, Mar 29th, 2004

Sci Fi Weekly: There is a lot of magic in your writing. Do you believe in any form of magic? How much of your spirituality is reflected in your writing?

Robert Jordan: No, I don't believe in magic, which is one of the reasons I structured the One Power very much as if it is a science. In fact, the technology of the preceding age was based on the use of the One Power.

As for how much of my spirituality is in my books, I leave it to anybody else to say whether I have any spirituality. I think I'm pretty grounded.


DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch, Sep 4th, 2005

Question: How did your background in physics influence how you structured the world of the Wheel of Time?

Robert Jordan: Largely it was to make things realistic, as realistic as I can. Background in physics and engineering; I also tried to structure channeling as if it were a science or technology. No eye of newt, hair of dog. There are real limits, there are rules, there are technological structures to channeling which I think are fairly obvious to anyone who looks at it. That was the major influence.

Plus making sure that I see that everything is real. Well if I bring about a blacksmith, well I don't know anything about blacksmithing, but I was able to get some nineteenth century books on blacksmithing, and once I had written the scenes I sent them to a woman I met that was a blacksmith and farrier, and she said you need to do this and you need to do that, but otherwise it is okay.



And Brandon on the magic systems in WoT:

TGS Signing Report - Aubree Pham, Nov 14th, 2009

Question: Does RJ work out things like conservation laws, since he was a physicist?

Brandon Sanderson: From what I've seen, he considered it, the power that is doing all these things is coming from somewhere. They discovered the Dark One by finding the power (True Power). (They are) not aware of the source of the One Power. The Law of Conservation of Energy works, it's coming from somewhere, we're not sure where. It's not something the characters were considering, so it wasn't appropriate to include in the books.


Fantasy Magazine Interview - Leigh Butler, September, 2011

Leigh Butler: In one of the essays on your website, you discuss what you called Sanderson's First Law of Magics, which is "an author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic." And from there you used that to define "soft" magic systems as opposed to "hard" systems, and the ways in which each kind uses its magic to resolve story conflict.

Brandon Sanderson: Right, though one thing I should mention is that I've since added the word "satisfactorily" to the law: The ability of the author to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional, etc. I think that's an important distinction to make.

Leigh Butler: So given that, can you discuss the magic system of the Wheel of Time in terms of your law? Robert Jordan's "channeling" seems like a pretty hard magic system to me.

Brandon Sanderson: Robert Jordan's magic system is both hard and soft. It's similar to, for instance, the Harry Potter magic system, which I personally think is quite well done. Of course, I do think Jordan's system is overall more consistent and a much better magic system. This is partially because of the strength of its limitations; for instance, that male channelers go mad, and the chance of burning yourself out with channeling, make it for a much more interesting magic system narratively. The "going mad" thing is basically the best limitation that I've ever heard of in a book series.

People like Tolkien, for instance, didn't explain a lot of the magic, and so what the magic could and couldn't do leaves you with a lot of that sense of wonder, so there's something to be gained on that side from not explaining. Jordan, I would say, is about on the seventy-five percent mark toward a more hard, rigid magic system, and it actually tends to work really well, but you'll notice that he liked to introduce new elements to the magic quite haphazardly—you know, suddenly someone is able to do this. It happens actually pretty frequently in the series as new things are being rediscovered.

suttree
01-13-2012, 11:34 PM
Edit: Quote already provided, please delete.

Terez
01-13-2012, 11:35 PM
I believe she already posted that one in this thread.

suttree
01-13-2012, 11:41 PM
I believe she already posted that one in this thread.

My bad. I'll edit it out, my eyes just keep glazing over trying to follow along with most of it...

Terez
01-14-2012, 12:56 AM
My bad. I'll edit it out, my eyes just keep glazing over trying to follow along with most of it...lol, all that wasn't necessary. And I don't blame you for not reading every word; was just trying to say it had already been taken into consideration. As my own points about the True Power clean-up process probably were as well. (I honestly couldn't tell you.)

Seeker
01-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Considering that Healing a broken arm involves healing only physical problems - the broken bone, reconnecting tendons, etc. - whereas Healing severing involves healing both physical as well as metaphysical problems (since both body and soul are important in channeling), I don't really see what the big deal is with this example.

Furthermore, just because you don't think that there is much logical consistency in the Wheel of Time doesn't necessarily mean that you're correct. Could be you just haven't looked close enough:


Well, I was trying to point out that you can't really expect perfect realism from a fantasy story and that debating how infinite cycles could produce finite cuendillar with mathematical models is futile. I don't think RJ meant for us to know about anything outside the Current Age and the end of the previous one. I think the data on those other ages simply doesn't exist.

But to answer your question - and maybe this will need a thread of its own - to me, severing has always been a form of brain-damage and nothing more. Purely physical. I don't have the quote but I know that RJ said that if someone is severed, they will be able to channel again in their next life. So, that would imply that the weave for severing doesn't touch the soul at all. Moreover, I have serious doubts about whether the One Power can affect the soul of another person. That seems to be one of those off-limits things.

So, with Siuan's stilling being essentially some scarring on the part of her brain that allows her to handle the One Power, there should be no reason why Nynaeve's weave couldn't fix it.

I used to believe that Nynaeve simply used the wrong method to heal Siuan and Leane. She used a weave that she had developed for Logain and since Siuan and Leane are anatomically different from him, the weave was only partially successful in restoring their ability to channel. But RJ nixed that idea.

In response to your quote, RJ may say that he doesn't believe in magic but if you ask him for some kind of deeper explanation into why things are the way they are - why must severed people be healed by someone of the opposite gender? - he replies with a non-answer like "Why don't pigs have wings? That's just the way it is." So, let's not kid ourselves. This is magic.

Whenever a fictional construct functions in a certain way simply because the author says so, that's magic. He may not call it that - and I don't think he has to - but it's still magic.

Now, this is not a complaint. I have no problem with RJ creating magic and then refusing to call it magic; that's just fine. My only point is that we in the audience shouldn't bother looking for some kind of underlying reason because magic does what the author says it does.

When it comes to Cuendillar, why aren't there mountains of it? Because RJ said there aren't. We weren't meant to know about the other Ages or what happens to make the Cuendillar go away. It's not relevant to the story in RJ's opinion.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2012, 04:13 AM
Which brings it back to the original point - cuendillar as a worthwhile product. So far it's been treated as a luxury item for those interested in its value as a rare and unique piece.
Which sort of seems rather strange.
I would have expected quite a lot of cuendillar razor blades, at the very least. They would stay sharp forever, and would be useful both as a practical item and as a status symbol.
All sorts of other knives too, of course. And screwdrivers. And chisels. Oh my, tools in general would be very useful if they couldn't break and didn't rust. Which means also screws, nuts and bolts, nails, more nails, and so forth.

I didn't increase my estimate of the approximate percentage of those who could make cuendillar at a reasonable rate (~1%) in order to account for men because: (1) We don't know anything about the saidin weave for making cuendillar, other than it is possible for men to make it. (2) It may be that if the saidin-based cuendillar weave also involves Earth, Air, and Fire, then it might be just as difficult for men since they are not generally proficient in Air.
A detail which I'd sort of more or less a bit overlooked, I admit. That is a good reason for lowering the estimate of how many people could make cuendillar on their own.

Of course, if a man who is good at channeling Earth teams up with a woman who is strong in Air, then the two of them wouldn't have any trouble getting the required strength in Fire between them too, so they could then make as much cuendillar as they wished. Like, you know, a razor blade for each, so that she didn't need to borrow his. :p

Weird Harold
01-14-2012, 05:59 AM
Gonzo, you're really going on a big assumption that things happen pretty much the same way every Turning. I can't find any interview quotes claiming that the bore is always sealed using cuendillar.

I'm sure you can find several RJ quotes about the past and future being the same; especially quotes asserting that our world is part of the Wheel; our legends and myths are inspired by events in the stories and the legends and myths of the story are inspired by our current events.

There is no direct statement that cuendillar is made in every "second" and "third" age, because such a statement should not be needed; the fact is implicit in the structure of the WOT cosmology.

Which sort of seems rather strange.
I would have expected quite a lot of cuendillar razor blades, at the very least.

Where have we seen an example of sharp cuendillar? Perhaps sharpness is not a property of cuendillar.

On a more practical note, the AOL had more options than cuendillar for "indestructible sharpness," such as "Aligning The Matrix" to create Power-Wrought Blades. Making Power-Wrought weapons seems to be within the capability of far more channeler than making cuendillar -- within the capabilities of enough Aes Sedai to make it worth a binding on the Oath Rod to prevent random AS from doing it.

OP welded stone, power-wrought structural steel, and other OP assisted building techniques require less channeling ability/Talent and do any given task as well, or better, than cuedillar

fionwe1987
01-14-2012, 06:54 AM
Moreover, I have serious doubts about whether the One Power can affect the soul of another person. That seems to be one of those off-limits things.
Huh? Balefire? The weave that pushed Birgette from TAR to the real world? The weaves that got souls from the soul pool to become Nyn, or Trollocs? The weave that makes a person temporarily ta'veren?

So, with Siuan's stilling being essentially some scarring on the part of her brain that allows her to handle the One Power, there should be no reason why Nynaeve's weave couldn't fix it.

Read the way Nynaeve does the Healing again. She uses a weave of Saidar to tunnel through a barrier and makes a conduit. With Logain, the conduit had saidin flowing through it, which was okay, since saidin repels saidar. With Siuan, the conduit wouldn't repel the saidar, which may have allowed for leakage.

Its kind of like how Rand said that if he used a tube of saidin to pass along all the saidin in the world into Shadar Logoth, the tube would shatter from the pressure. But the tube of saidar was just fine.

fionwe1987
01-14-2012, 06:56 AM
I'm sure you can find several RJ quotes about the past and future being the same; especially quotes asserting that our world is part of the Wheel; our legends and myths are inspired by events in the stories and the legends and myths of the story are inspired by our current events.
There are also quotes which say that the turnings are only similar in general, with differences in actual details. There have been turnings where the Dragon lost, where the Dragon was female (I think), and so on. Are you willing to bet there wasn't a turning without cuendillar in the Second Age?

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2012, 08:11 AM
There are also quotes which say that the turnings are only similar in general, with differences in actual details. There have been turnings where the Dragon lost, where the Dragon was female (I think), and so on. Are you willing to bet there wasn't a turning without cuendillar in the Second Age?
Just one such Turn would not be anywhere near close to good enough for this purpose, though. What you need is a situation where every single Second Age in almost all Turns, with perhaps only one or two exceptions in all of eternity, do not have cuendillar production, even though there is no reason why it couldn't happen.

Having Padan Fain around as an anomaly which is unique to this specific Age of this specific Turn isn't too much of a stretch. He's enough of an oddball to make that believable. But having cuendillar making just as scarce when it could be rediscovered just from the words of a non-expert is far less believable.

Try building a functioning television, using nothing more than the instructions from someone who has once seen a television. That'll give you an indication of why I do not think that making cuendillar is really so exceptionally difficult that it did not happen in any other Turn.
Was the chance of Egwene figuring it out really less than one in a million? I do not believe that. That's why I do not accept the "it only happens in a few Turns" approach.

Terez
01-14-2012, 09:49 AM
Huh? Balefire? The weave that pushed Birgette from TAR to the real world? The weaves that got souls from the soul pool to become Nyn, or Trollocs? The weave that makes a person temporarily ta'veren? Dunno about the last one, but there's also the weave Ishamael used to try to rip Rand's soul from his body in TDR.

fionwe1987
01-14-2012, 10:34 AM
Just one such Turn would not be anywhere near close to good enough for this purpose, though. What you need is a situation where every single Second Age in almost all Turns, with perhaps only one or two exceptions in all of eternity, do not have cuendillar production, even though there is no reason why it couldn't happen.
Not at all. Even if half the turns don't have/have limited cuendillar production, we aren't looking at infinite amounts of cuendillar.

Having Padan Fain around as an anomaly which is unique to this specific Age of this specific Turn isn't too much of a stretch. He's enough of an oddball to make that believable. But having cuendillar making just as scarce when it could be rediscovered just from the words of a non-expert is far less believable.
It wasn't rediscovered "just" from the words of a non-expert. It required a gifted channeler with immense strength in earth and a genius for making new weaves. By your logic, Traveling is easy too, yet by all accounts it is one of the most complex weaves around. Nynaeve figured out five power Healing from Moggy too. Do you want to bet that Healing is a simple thing?

Try building a functioning television, using nothing more than the instructions from someone who has once seen a television. That'll give you an indication of why I do not think that making cuendillar is really so exceptionally difficult that it did not happen in any other Turn.
Was the chance of Egwene figuring it out really less than one in a million? I do not believe that. That's why I do not accept the "it only happens in a few Turns" approach.
I don't have a Talent for Television building. Remember that making Cuendillar is a Talent. And as Maria has said that the Pattern decides which Talents to give people and when, there's every possibility it regulates the presence of this Talent to keep the amount of cuendillar in check.

Here's another point no one mentioned. What is to say the ability to make Cuendillar wasn't a late discovery like Balefire? What if it was only discovered in the early Collapse? That may well explain the small number of cuendillar items available.

Terez
01-14-2012, 10:42 AM
Nynaeve figured out five power Healing from Moggy too. Do you want to bet that Healing is a simple thing?Moghedien didn't know anything about Healing. Nynaeve came up with Five-Power Healing all on her own. It's her wilder trick. ;)

Marie Curie 7
01-14-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm not so sure it's unimportant. Assuming that channeling at cuendillar does in fact make it stronger (i.e. resistant to the two known ways of destroying it), that knowledge might have been passed along with the general lore. It's a little odd that the contradiction wasn't questioned, but some of the quotes say there is no 'known' way to destroy it, hinting that it is at least understood that there is some theoretical possibility that it could be destroyed.

Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if someone like Moiraine had taken one of the Seals that was found still intact but fragile and channeled into it for some time, doesn't it?

fionwe1987
01-14-2012, 11:26 AM
Moghedien didn't know anything about Healing. Nynaeve came up with Five-Power Healing all on her own. It's her wilder trick. ;)
Nope. Nynaeve's wilder trick was to use all five Powers in the normal AS Healing weave. This probably did improve things, but not by much, since various people Healed with it still gasped and shuddered.

What Moghedien hinted at was that different weaves were used for different types of Healing, and that some Healing was done better by men (which Nynaeve did not believe).

Weird Harold
01-14-2012, 11:33 AM
There are also quotes which say that the turnings are only similar in general, with differences in actual details. There have been turnings where the Dragon lost, where the Dragon was female (I think), and so on. Are you willing to bet there wasn't a turning without cuendillar in the Second Age?

Each Age differs from the same Age in any other Turning in much the same way that the Monday performance of a long-running play differs from another Monday performance. Actors may flub a line or two, an actor may call in sick or retire, but the script, costumes and props remain the same.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2012, 11:35 AM
Not at all. Even if half the turns don't have/have limited cuendillar production, we aren't looking at infinite amounts of cuendillar.
Why not?

I really, truly, do not get this.
If your suggestion were correct, that would still leave half of the Turns in which cuendillar were still produced. Given an infinite number of Turns (the Wheel has no beginning and no ending), we get the following calculation:
Tc = Cp * Nt,
with Tc the total amount of cuendillar produced, Cp the production per Turn (in tons, or ounces, or whatever unit you wanna use) and Nt the number of Turns in which such production takes place. Since Cp is a non-zero and not infinitesimal number and Nt is infinite, it should be obvious that Cp is also infinite.

I do not understand why this seems so hard to grasp.

eht slat meit
01-14-2012, 11:46 AM
Which sort of seems rather strange.
I would have expected quite a lot of cuendillar razor blades, at the very least. They would stay sharp forever, and would be useful both as a practical item and as a status symbol.
All sorts of other knives too, of course. And screwdrivers. And chisels. Oh my, tools in general would be very useful if they couldn't break and didn't rust. Which means also screws, nuts and bolts, nails, more nails, and so forth.


I wouldn't expect razor blades or any other blade of cuendillar, and here's why:

Mat was cupping what appeared to be fragments of pottery in his two hands.~ TEoTW, ch52

The visible manifestation of cuendillar, as shown in the broken pieces of the seal, is that of something very like pottery. This makes sense, of course - the base element is iron ore, and the weaves used on cuendillar are dominated by Earth. Anyone whose gotten a cut from pottery knows that it certainly can be sharp, but that doesn't put it anywhere near the same level as a proper cutting instrument.

In that context, as WH states, why use cuendillar for a blade when there are better weaves for the purpose?

That said, there are useful purposes for cuendillar - certain reusable tools come to mind, like hammers and such, but there's a point at which the investment is really not worthwhile.

Examples?

1> What's the advantage in using cuendillar nails over regular nails? The structure they are used to build will be outlasted by the cuendillar, and the cuendillar becomes so much trash... unless the builder made it a point to keep a blueprint that includes nothing more than the location of every cuendillar screw. Pointless excercise.

2> Structures themselves can't utilize cuendillar without extreme consideration for safety, as it can easily become a death trap. The OP-Fireman's not bashing that door in.

3> In terms of the Age, cuendillar is "indestructible" that is, it can't be gotten rid of, because they don't have the resources to destroy it. Or perhaps they do...

Maybe the AoL gets rid of its trashy cuendillar by dumping it in a vacuole somewhere.

Or maybe the Age is really really green-conscious and makes it a point not to generate an excess of indestructible plastic-wannabe cuendillar items that don't offer lasting benefits.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 11:56 AM
Huh? Balefire? The weave that pushed Birgette from TAR to the real world? The weaves that got souls from the soul pool to become Nyn, or Trollocs? The weave that makes a person temporarily ta'veren?

Balefire doesn't effect people's souls. It burns threads out of the pattern. A balefired person will be reborn at some point so the soul remains in tact.

Ripping Birgitte from the World of Dreams was done with the True Power. It's such a violation of the natural order that it has to be attributed to the Dark One.

If there is a weave that makes on ta'veren, that affects the pattern not the soul.


Read the way Nynaeve does the Healing again. She uses a weave of Saidar to tunnel through a barrier and makes a conduit. With Logain, the conduit had saidin flowing through it, which was okay, since saidin repels saidar. With Siuan, the conduit wouldn't repel the saidar, which may have allowed for leakage.

Its kind of like how Rand said that if he used a tube of saidin to pass along all the saidin in the world into Shadar Logoth, the tube would shatter from the pressure. But the tube of saidar was just fine.

Does that mean that Aes Sedai have tubes of saidin in their heads?

It seems unlikely given that they never went insane and died.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if someone like Moiraine had taken one of the Seals that was found still intact but fragile and channeled into it for some time, doesn't it?

My guess.... Saidar would have been tainted.

Terez
01-14-2012, 12:07 PM
Nope. Nynaeve's wilder trick was to use all five Powers in the normal AS Healing weave.How would she have learned that in the Two Rivers? Long before she met Moghedien, she met Aviendha, Bain, and Chiad...and her Healing "made making lightning look like mixing oatcake". As for learning it from Aes Sedai...with her blocks, she probably didn't have many opportunities. Her one opportunity to really watch a Healing was one that was not done in the traditional Aes Sedai way (the Healing of Mat), and was probably more along the lines of what she had already been doing.

This probably did improve things, but not by much, since various people Healed with it still gasped and shuddered.Since Nynaeve Healed without thinking before she realized she could channel, it's possible that her original way of doing it included an element that caused the gasping and whatnot that she was later able to remove when she overcame her block. Her Healing has always been complex. When she Healed Dailin, she was still using herbs to overcome her block with Healing in particular. She got over that block shortly thereafter when they were kidnapped by the Darkfriends. She didn't have herbs, but she Healed Elayne, and after that she didn't need them any more. All Moghedien did was give a validation of sorts to what Nynaeve was already doing, and it was basically the sum of her knowledge on Healing, since she never took an interest in it and had no Talent for it.

suttree
01-14-2012, 12:46 PM
My guess.... Saidar would have been tainted.

Not likely...

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

thomwoosley
01-14-2012, 12:51 PM
Anyone whose gotten a cut from pottery knows that it certainly can be sharp, but that doesn't put it anywhere near the same level as a proper cutting instrument.


You might want to take a trip to a kitchen goods store, and ask to see the ceramic knifes.

I admit, there may be a technical distinction between ceramics and pottery that I'm unaware of.

eht slat meit
01-14-2012, 01:13 PM
You might want to take a trip to a kitchen goods store, and ask to see the ceramic knifes.

I admit, there may be a technical distinction between ceramics and pottery that I'm unaware of.

They get that level of sharpness by using a grinder to hone the blade. You can't do that with cuendillar, unless cuendillar is like diamond and is the one item that can be used to damage itself instead of just scraping back and forth.

Plausible, but unsupported by the text.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 05:29 PM
Dunno about the last one, but there's also the weave Ishamael used to try to rip Rand's soul from his body in TDR.

That was the True Power.

Terez
01-14-2012, 05:38 PM
That's actually a matter of debate.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 06:48 PM
Not to me, it isn't.

Ishamael never uses anything else.

Terez
01-14-2012, 07:53 PM
Not to me, it isn't.lol.

Ishamael never uses anything else.
The argument goes, how did Rand copy his weave?

Marie Curie 7
01-14-2012, 09:07 PM
Ripping Birgitte from the World of Dreams was done with the True Power. It's such a violation of the natural order that it has to be attributed to the Dark One.

Sorry, but that would be incorrect. Moghedien most definitely used the One Power to rip Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 34 – A Silver Arrow

Moghedien moved to where Nynaeve could see her, between the quivering triangle of her arms. The glow of saidar surrounded the woman mockingly. "A detail from Graendal's chair," the Forsaken said. Her dress was mist like Graendal's, sliding from black fog to nearly transparent and back to gleaming silver. The fabric changed almost constantly. Nynaeve had seen her wear it before, in Tanchico. "Not something I would have thought of on my own, but Graendal can be ...edifying." Nynaeve glared at her, but Moghedien did not appear to notice. "I can hardly believe that you actually came hunting me. Did you really believe that because once you were lucky enough to catch me off guard, you might be my equal?" The woman's laugh was cutting. "If you only knew the effort I have put into finding you. And you came to me." She glanced around at the wagons, studying the lions and bears for a moment before turning back to Nynaeve. "A menagerie? That would make you easy enough to find. If I needed to, now."

.
.
.

The other woman laughed. "A delightful tale. I can almost see what fascinates Semirhage about breaking the spirit. Oh, you are going to provide me with a great deal of entertainment, Nynaeve al'Meara. But first, you are going to bring the girl Elayne to me. You will shield her and bind her and bring her to lie at my feet. Do you know why? Because some things are actually stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod than in the waking world. That is why you will be a glossy white mare whenever I bring you here. And it is not only hurts taken here that last into waking. Compulsion is another. I want you to think of it for a moment or two, before you begin believing it your own idea. I suspect that the girl is your friend. But you are going to bring her to me like a pet —" Moghedien screamed as a silver arrow suddenly stuck its head out from below her right breast.

Nynaeve fell to the ground like a dropped sack. The fall knocked every speck of breath from her lungs as surely as a hammer in the belly. Straining to breathe, she struggled to make racked muscles move, to fight through pain to saidar.

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte's head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.

Notice that it explicitly says that the glow of saidar surrounded Moghedien.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 10:04 PM
lol.


The argument goes, how did Rand copy his weave?
I'll read the scene and reply with my thoughts. Rand's battle with Ishamael after taking Callandor, yes?

Seeker
01-14-2012, 10:13 PM
Sorry, but that would be incorrect. Moghedien most definitely used the One Power to rip Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod:



Notice that it explicitly says that the glow of saidar surrounded Moghedien.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up :)

Yes, I noticed that Moghdien was holding saidar. But one can hold saidar and saidin at the same time and manipulate them independently; so, it's entirely possible that one can hold saidar and the True Power at the same time and use them independently.

Notice how Nynaeve didn't see any weaves?

Notice how a "cloud of darkness enfolded Birgitte?"

Both obvious signs of True Power use.

Lupusdeusest
01-15-2012, 12:05 AM
Along the lines of the sharpness debate:
When one converts iron to cuendillar, does the item change shape or dimensions at all? If one made a blade, would the edges get rounded in conversion?

Green Man 22
01-15-2012, 12:05 AM
I was waiting for someone to bring that up :)

Yes, I noticed that Moghdien was holding saidar. But one can hold saidar and saidin at the same time and manipulate them independently; so, it's entirely possible that one can hold saidar and the True Power at the same time and use them independently.

When do characters hold both saidar and saidin together other than through linking or a circle? Are there any actual examples of people using saidar/saidin + the True Power at the same time? Entirely possible does not equal likely.

Notice how Nynaeve didn't see any weaves?

Notice how a "cloud of darkness enfolded Birgitte?"

Both obvious signs of True Power use.

Nynaeve not seeing the weaves isn't necessarily an indication of True Power use. One of the very first things Moghedien taught the Supergirls was to invert their weaves, which was something she herself did almost without thinking.

If what Moghedien was doing wasn't using the OP, but instead from the TP, why would she shine brighter (blindingly bright according to Nynaeve) when she attacked Birgitte? Isn't the brighter glow an indication that she was using even more saidar?

suttree
01-15-2012, 12:42 AM
I was waiting for someone to bring that up :)

Yes, I noticed that Moghdien was holding saidar. But one can hold saidar and saidin at the same time and manipulate them independently; so, it's entirely possible that one can hold saidar and the True Power at the same time and use them independently.

Notice how Nynaeve didn't see any weaves?

Notice how a "cloud of darkness enfolded Birgitte?"

Both obvious signs of True Power use.

IRC there is zero signs of being able to channel both the OP and TP at the same time. You would think we would have seen it at some point or at least had it commented upon by the Forsaken if possible.

As for Nynaeve she sees Moghdien draw deeper on the OP and the result of that channeling is

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness

So no, that doesn't really sound like the TP at all.

fionwe1987
01-15-2012, 01:24 AM
Each Age differs from the same Age in any other Turning in much the same way that the Monday performance of a long-running play differs from another Monday performance. Actors may flub a line or two, an actor may call in sick or retire, but the script, costumes and props remain the same.
Its a pretty huge script change if the Dragon loses, yet we know that has happened in some turns.

Why not?
I really, truly, do not get this.
If your suggestion were correct, that would still leave half of the Turns in which cuendillar were still produced. Given an infinite number of Turns (the Wheel has no beginning and no ending), we get the following calculation:
Tc = Cp * Nt,
with Tc the total amount of cuendillar produced, Cp the production per Turn (in tons, or ounces, or whatever unit you wanna use) and Nt the number of Turns in which such production takes place. Since Cp is a non-zero and not infinitesimal number and Nt is infinite, it should be obvious that Cp is also infinite.

I do not understand why this seems so hard to grasp.
That's because you're taking the statement about there being no beginnings or endings too literally. Obviously, there CAN be a final ending. The whole series is about preventing that. And just as obviously, the Creator did his job Creating at some point, which was THE beginning. The Dark One was sealed away at the "Moment of Creation" after all.

Which means Nt is not infinity, and cuendillar is only produced in a fraction (half or two thirds, makes no difference) of those turns, and with Cp having quite a bit of variation in each turn, you can see why "infinite amount of cuendillar" is considered to be illogical nonsense by so many people.

Balefire doesn't effect people's souls. It burns threads out of the pattern. A balefired person will be reborn at some point so the soul remains in tact.
You said no weaves "affect" the Soul. And while threads and souls aren't the same, they're also very obviously connected. By erasing the soul's existence for a brief amount of time, Balefire affects the Soul. Which invalidates your statement.

Ripping Birgitte from the World of Dreams was done with the True Power. It's such a violation of the natural order that it has to be attributed to the Dark One.
You've shown absolutely no proof for that, I'm afraid. That this is a saidar weave is pretty clearly established. More on that later...

If there is a weave that makes on ta'veren, that affects the pattern not the soul.
Ta'veren affect the Pattern, yes. Becoming ta'veren affects your soul and your thread.

And you did ignore the very obvious weaves that make constructs like Nym. Those were clearly of the One Power.

Does that mean that Aes Sedai have tubes of saidin in their heads?

It seems unlikely given that they never went insane and died.
Ummm... everything is made of Saidin and Saidar. The taint only affects channelers who use Saidin and constructs (like the Ways) that were made of Saidin. The theoretical saidin tube in a female channeler wasn't channeled in. It is natural saidin. Hence, no madness.

How would she have learned that in the Two Rivers?
Like Moiraine learned to eavesdrop in Cairhein. I'm not saying her weave was an exact copy of the Aes Sedai (it obviously was not) one. But it was along similar lines, with Earth and Fire added now and then. Nynaeve invented the new selective Healing weaves after she Healed Logain, Siuan and Leanne. Some of those were also creations of the Yellow Ajah in Salidar, since Egwene says that the Yellows had taken what Nynaeve began and made wondrous things.

Long before she met Moghedien, she met Aviendha, Bain, and Chiad...and her Healing "made making lightning look like mixing oatcake".
Yes... and? Egwene says this, who can barely Heal at all. Its not like Aes Sedai Healing is a simple web.

And notice that at this stage, the weave causes the usual cold-hot feeling, takes strength from the person being Healed, and based on Egwene's PoV, is no different for Healing a sword wound to the stomach and a cracked skull. That last is definitive proof to me that this is quite different from the injury specific weaves Nynaeve invents later on.

As for learning it from Aes Sedai...with her blocks, she probably didn't have many opportunities.
She spent enough time with the Yellows (in fact, only spent time with them, in the Tower) to learn their secret signs. And when she could channel, Nynaeve picked up weaves with great speed. Are you telling me Shemerin was convinced Nynaeve was destined for the Yellow without seeing Nynaeve demonstrate her skill?

Her one opportunity to really watch a Healing was one that was not done in the traditional Aes Sedai way (the Healing of Mat), and was probably more along the lines of what she had already been doing.
But she makes it very clear she spent all her time with the Yellows, and managed to convince them she belonged with them. Part of that must have been her interest in making people better, but in the few months she spent in the Tower, you can't seriously tell me no Yellow tried to give her OP lessons.
Since Nynaeve Healed without thinking before she realized she could channel, it's possible that her original way of doing it included an element that caused the gasping and whatnot that she was later able to remove when she overcame her block. Her Healing has always been complex. When she Healed Dailin, she was still using herbs to overcome her block with Healing in particular. She got over that block shortly thereafter when they were kidnapped by the Darkfriends. She didn't have herbs, but she Healed Elayne, and after that she didn't need them any more. All Moghedien did was give a validation of sorts to what Nynaeve was already doing, and it was basically the sum of her knowledge on Healing, since she never took an interest in it and had no Talent for it.
Nope. Here's an example of Nynaeve's post-Moghedien Healing:

Soaking wet in shirt and breeches and stockings, he was gorgeous, with his dripping hair clinging to the angles of his face, and.... A split purple bruise was rising on his face, as from a blow. She clapped a hand to her mouth, remembering her fist connecting.
"Oh, no! Oh, Lan, I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to!" She was not really aware of crossing the space
between them; she was just there, stretching up on toetips to lay fingers gently on his injury. A deft weave of all Five Powers, and his tanned cheek was unblemished. But he might have been hurt elsewhere. She spun the weaves to Delve him; new scars made her wince inside, and there was something odd, but he seemed healthy as
a prime bull.

Notice the differences. For one, she doesn't even have to delve him. For another, the first weave only takes care of the facial bruise, leaving the rest of him unhealed. Compare this to the weave she used on Elayne in tDR, which was so all-encompassing that it even Healed Egwene when she touched Elayne. This is clearly one of her new weaves that Heals one injury specifically, and doesn't take the energy out of the person being Healed. On the contrary, the previous weaves, including the one in tDR, did take energy from the patient, since Nynaeve instructs the Maidens to be ready to feed Dailin, since she would be hungry after the Healing.

Then along came Moghedien:

"Then we'll talk about using different weaves to Heal different illnesses." The woman said that took more time than what was done now, but all the strength for it came from the Power, not from the patient and the woman channeling. Of course, she said men had actually been better at some kinds of Healing, and Nynaeve was not about to believe that. "You must have seen it done at least once."

She settled down to bore away for nuggets in the dross. Some knowledge was worth a great deal. She
just wished she did not feel that she was digging through slime.

Here, Nynaeve makes clear that the idea for Healing weaves that are different for different issues, and takes all the strength needed from the OP is not her own idea. "What was done now" doesn't do this, which means Nynaeve doesn't do this, at this time. Only with the idea from Moghedien, and the "nuggets in the dross" she got, plus what she learned from Healing Siuan and Leanee with only some of the five powers does Nynaeve invent her new Healing.

The differences between her old style and the Aes Sedai style was only that she used all five powers, not just Wind, Water and Spirit.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up :)

Yes, I noticed that Moghdien was holding saidar. But one can hold saidar and saidin at the same time and manipulate them independently;
No one cannot. A man can hold saidin and a woman saidar, and they can use both when linked. No one person can draw both powers at once on their own.

so, it's entirely possible that one can hold saidar and the True Power at the same time and use them independently.
That would cause reactions similar to what happened when a TP and OP Balefire stream crossed. And I fail to see why Moghedien, already exhausted from a pretty serious arrow wound, would exhaust her body further by drawing both saidar and the TP in excessive quantities.

Notice how Nynaeve didn't see any weaves?
She noticed no weaves when Moggy shielded her, gagged her, tied her up and tortured her. Were all those supposed to be the True Power as well?

Notice how a "cloud of darkness enfolded Birgitte?"

Both obvious signs of True Power use.
Darkness can only be created by the True Power?

And if Moggy can touch the TP and Saidar at the same time, why in the world did she not use the TP to destroy Nynaeve when they were matched strength to strength in Tanchico?

It is beyond obvious you can't use both Powers at once.

Cortar
01-15-2012, 01:59 AM
Its a pretty huge script change if the Dragon loses, yet we know that has happened in some turns.

We do know the Dragon has been turned to Shadow or has died before Tamon Gaidan. What he meant about the script changing is that there are a certain number of ways things can be played out. Maybe every fifth Turning or something the Dragon fails. etc


That's because you're taking the statement about there being no beginnings or endings too literally. Obviously, there CAN be a final ending. The whole series is about preventing that. And just as obviously, the Creator did his job Creating at some point, which was THE beginning. The Dark One was sealed away at the "Moment of Creation" after all.

That is the thing about infinity, its hard to understand, maybe impossible for a brain that only understands a linear progression of time. I don't think its unreasonable at all to believe what the book states and that are no beginnings yadda yadda.


Which means Nt is not infinity, and cuendillar is only produced in a fraction (half or two thirds, makes no difference) of those turns, and with Cp having quite a bit of variation in each turn, you can see why "infinite amount of cuendillar" is considered to be illogical nonsense by so many people.


Even without an infinite turnings of the wheel you have to admit there has to be at least a few hundred, almost definitely more. That being so there should be a lot more cuendillar unless a massive anti-cuendillar wave is unleashed each seventh age

fionwe1987
01-15-2012, 02:08 AM
We do know the Dragon has been turned to Shadow or has died before Tamon Gaidan. What he meant about the script changing is that there are a certain number of ways things can be played out. Maybe every fifth Turning or something the Dragon fails. etc
Either way, if so major a thing as the Dragon winning is malleable, the presence or absence of Cuendillar certainly is.


That is the thing about infinity, its hard to understand, maybe impossible for a brain that only understands a linear progression of time. I don't think its unreasonable at all to believe what the book states and that are no beginnings yadda yadda.
But the books also clearly mention a "Moment of Creation". That is definitely before the Wheel existed, and if there was something before the Wheel, there obviously was a moment when the Wheel began. Once the Wheel began, however, there are no definite beginnings (hence no beginnings or endings IN the wheel). But the cycle itself started at some point, and that means there have been finite turns.

Even without an infinite turnings of the wheel you have to admit there has to be at least a few hundred, almost definitely more. That being so there should be a lot more cuendillar unless a massive anti-cuendillar wave is unleashed each seventh age
Sure. But what's to say a ton of this doesn't get buried deeply during the Breaking and Breaking like events? My only point here is that there is no possibility of an infinite amount of Cuendillar. A large finite amount can still be handled, added to which we have the knowledge that cuendillar can indeed be destroyed.

eht slat meit
01-15-2012, 02:09 AM
Why not?

I really, truly, do not get this.
If your suggestion were correct, that would still leave half of the Turns in which cuendillar were still produced. Given an infinite number of Turns (the Wheel has no beginning and no ending), we get the following calculation:
Tc = Cp * Nt,
with Tc the total amount of cuendillar produced, Cp the production per Turn (in tons, or ounces, or whatever unit you wanna use) and Nt the number of Turns in which such production takes place. Since Cp is a non-zero and not infinitesimal number and Nt is infinite, it should be obvious that Cp is also infinite.

I do not understand why this seems so hard to grasp.

Honestly, if you're going to attempt to reduce this to a matter of a mathematical equation, you're missing a critical component.

For starters, you need the MI, where mc = maximum iron available to produce cuendill with. With this number in mind, any result of (cp * nt) can never be higher than MI, or it will produce a negative TC. A negative TC of course, is illogical, as you can not have a negative amount of cuendillar.

Tc = MI - {Cp * Nt}

Short and better answer, screw the mathematics: You are dealing with a finite resource, therefore you will never have an infinite amount of the product that resource is changed into, no matter how much time you have to produce it. Stretch it out as much as you like or bring it all into cuendillar in one Turn, there is going to be a finite amount.

Weird Harold
01-15-2012, 04:04 AM
Its a pretty huge script change if the Dragon loses, yet we know that has happened in some turns.


The point is that the next performance uses the original script, not the changed script.

Cortar
01-15-2012, 04:33 AM
But the books also clearly mention a "Moment of Creation". That is definitely before the Wheel existed, and if there was something before the Wheel, there obviously was a moment when the Wheel began. Once the Wheel began, however, there are no definite beginnings (hence no beginnings or endings IN the wheel). But the cycle itself started at some point, and that means there have been finite turns.

See, you are still viewing this from a perspective inside time. Maybe if one were in infinity where time does not exist you could create something that always exists, how does this make, I don't know, I can't know what infinity is like or how something COULD exist without time.

Or maybe the entire act of creation is redone each turning of the wheel so when the ages turn from 7 to 1, the world ceases to exist and is recreated by the creator. In this case there would be an infinite number of turnings because there is no specific turning that is the beginning, it just always happens, but there is a "moment of creation" each time the world is restarted. If this were true then it would explain why there isn't a lot of cuendillar laying around.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2012, 04:46 AM
Along the lines of the sharpness debate:
When one converts iron to cuendillar, does the item change shape or dimensions at all? If one made a blade, would the edges get rounded in conversion?
You mean, first sharpen the knife and then convert it to cuendillar. I suspect that would be cheating.
I do not really know why that would stop people from doing it anyway, though.

Honestly, if you're going to attempt to reduce this to a matter of a mathematical equation, you're missing a critical component.

For starters, you need the MI, where mc = maximum iron available to produce cuendill with. With this number in mind, any result of (cp * nt) can never be higher than MI, or it will produce a negative TC. A negative TC of course, is illogical, as you can not have a negative amount of cuendillar.

Tc = MI - {Cp * Nt}

Short and better answer, screw the mathematics: You are dealing with a finite resource, therefore you will never have an infinite amount of the product that resource is changed into, no matter how much time you have to produce it. Stretch it out as much as you like or bring it all into cuendillar in one Turn, there is going to be a finite amount.
Obviously.

However, this does not provide anything remotely like a reason why there would be a significant amount of available iron left, let alone why there would be far more iron than cuendillar available, as is the case.
So, rather than solving the problem, your addition merely highlights how serious it is.

eht slat meit
01-15-2012, 10:03 AM
Obviously.

However, this does not provide anything remotely like a reason why there would be a significant amount of available iron left, let alone why there would be far more iron than cuendillar available, as is the case.

Of course not. The point isn't to solve the problem, it's to show that the conclusion that there can be an infinite amount of cuendillar is fallacious. resource != time

Some logical conclusions here:
1. Because cuendillar is made from iron, there will never be more cuendillar than iron. iron >= cuendillar.
2. Because iron is a nonrenewable resource, the amount of iron is not infinite and will approach zero as it is converted to cuendillar.
3. This means that an infinite number of Turnings is irrelevant, because the amount of cuendillar produced over those turnings will approach zero as the resource used to created does the same.

Where's the serious part?

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2012, 11:07 AM
That still leaves open the fairly glaring fact that cuendillar is much rarer on the surface than iron is, which would not be the case if most of the availaible iron had been converted to cuendillar in previous Turns.
So either it had not been converted (which runs into the problems I've mentioned before) or it has returned to being iron again.

And now for something completely different:
Why does everyone assume that cuendillar can be made only from iron?
We know that's how Egwene does it, so that works. But other starting materials (possibly with a different weave) may also work, and that may explain why there are different colors for different pieces of cuendillar.

Seeker
01-15-2012, 12:24 PM
Okay, I'm going to address multiple posts with this one, since several people have posted the same thing.

First and foremost, there is a complaint that I have not provided evidence that one can channel the One Power and the True Power at the same time. My response is that I don't need to because I am not the one with the burden of proof in this situation. I am not trying to prove something, I am pointing out that Marie Curie has not met her burden or proof.


To review, I am of the opinion that Moghidien used the True Power when ripping Birgitte out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

Marie replied that Moghidien could not be using the True Power because she was holding saidar at the time.

My response to that is that the fact Moghidien was holding saidar is not sufficient to rule out use of the True Power because we cannot say with conviction that one cannot use both at the same time.

We don't know whether or not it is possible to use the One Power and the True Power at the same time. So, we can't rule out the True Power based solely on the fact that she was holding saidar.



When do characters hold both saidar and saidin together other than through linking or a circle? Are there any actual examples of people using saidar/saidin + the True Power at the same time? Entirely possible does not equal likely.

Likelihood is irrelevant. My argument rests entirely on the fact that we don't know for sure whether one can use both at the same time.

Now, this is where it becomes a matter of interpretation. Because we don't have all the information. I think it is extremely, extremely unlikely that Moghidien would be able to remove a soul from Tel'Aran'Rhiod using the One Power alone. But that is just an opinion.

Now, why do I think this? Well, the Wheel spins Heroes into new bodies when it needs them. Ripping a Hero out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod before their time would be a major disruption to the Wheel's plan, a major source of Chaos. Exactly the sort of thing the Dark One would get behind.

I don't think the One Power would allow someone to rip a Hero out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod because it is too much of upset to the order of things. The One Power seems to have hard limits about the rules of life and death. You can't heal death, for instance; when a soul is gone, it's gone. Meanwhile, the Dark One has shown at least some ability to suspend the process of death and rebirth. So, ripping Birgitte away seems to be a facet of the True Power.

Now, you're welcome to debate that point with me, but I'd ask you not to take it personally if I don't respond because it's really a matter of interpretation.

I find it just too unbelievable to accept that the One Power could rip a soul out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

You find it just too unbelievable to accept that one can channel the One Power and the True Power at the same time.

In each case, we don't have enough information to say anything with certainty so we may as well just accept different that we have different interpretations and be on our way. :)

If what Moghedien was doing wasn't using the OP, but instead from the TP, why would she shine brighter (blindingly bright according to Nynaeve) when she attacked Birgitte? Isn't the brighter glow an indication that she was using even more saidar?

Perhaps she used a little of both. Or perhaps the act of drawing in the True Power made her draw in more saidar without thinking about it. However, the answer that I feel is most likely is one that I will be looking at in my next post.

I don't think RJ had the mechanics of his magic worked out quite yet.

fionwe1987
01-15-2012, 12:33 PM
Okay, I'm going to address multiple posts with this one, since several people have posted the same thing.

First and foremost, there is a complaint that I have not provided evidence that one can channel the One Power and the True Power at the same time. My response is that I don't need to because I am not the one with the burden of proof in this situation. I am not trying to prove something, I am pointing out that Marie Curie has not met her burden or proof.


To review, I am of the opinion that Moghidien used the True Power when ripping Birgitte out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

Marie replied that Moghidien could not be using the True Power because she was holding saidar at the time.

My response to that is that the fact Moghidien was holding saidar is not sufficient to rule out use of the True Power because we cannot say with conviction that one cannot use both at the same time.

We don't know whether or not it is possible to use the One Power and the True Power at the same time. So, we can't rule out the True Power based solely on the fact that she was holding saidar.
What a load of crock. I pointed out that if Moghedien could indeed use the TP and saidar at once, she would have done so against Nynaeve in tSR. You have not been able to answer that. Nor have you shown how it is possible to mix the two powers inside a person when we have seen that even two weaves of these powers have weird reactions, and RJ has said that using the One Power in proximity to Shayol Ghul (the source of the True Power) can have unpredictable reactions. Nor have you explained why Nynaeve should suddenly be able to see these weaves when she didn't see weaves associated with a single thing Moggy did in TAR in that scene.

Lastly, you haven't shown why Moggy would make herself even more tired by drawing immense amounts of saidar at the exact moment she was straining to push Birgette out of TAR.

In sum, your argument is inconsistent and illogical.

Likelihood is irrelevant. My argument rests entirely on the fact that we don't know for sure whether one can use both at the same time.

Now, this is where it becomes a matter of interpretation. Because we don't have all the information. I think it is extremely, extremely unlikely that Moghidien would be able to remove a soul from Tel'Aran'Rhiod using the One Power alone. But that is just an opinion.

Now, why do I think this? Well, the Wheel spins Heroes into new bodies when it needs them. Ripping a Hero out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod before their time would be a major disruption to the Wheel's plan, a major source of Chaos. Exactly the sort of thing the Dark One would get behind.

I don't think the One Power would allow someone to rip a Hero out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod because it is too much of upset to the order of things. The One Power seems to have hard limits about the rules of life and death. You can't heal death, for instance; when a soul is gone, it's gone. Meanwhile, the Dark One has shown at least some ability to suspend the process of death and rebirth. So, ripping Birgitte away seems to be a facet of the True Power.
If the OP can't be used to do anything that disrupts the order of things, how in the world is Balefire an OP weave then? And Belfire does reverse death, and has done so for two major characters. Again, here is a sign of the OP reversing death.

Now, you're welcome to debate that point with me, but I'd ask you not to take it personally if I don't respond because it's really a matter of interpretation.

I find it just too unbelievable to accept that the One Power could rip a soul out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

You find it just too unbelievable to accept that one can channel the One Power and the True Power at the same time.

In each case, we don't have enough information to say anything with certainty so we may as well just accept different that we have different interpretations and be on our way, :)

Yea, nice cop out, that...

Seeker
01-15-2012, 04:18 PM
What a load of crock. I pointed out that if Moghedien could indeed use the TP and saidar at once, she would have done so against Nynaeve in tSR. You have not been able to answer that. Nor have you shown how it is possible to mix the two powers inside a person when we have seen that even two weaves of these powers have weird reactions, and RJ has said that using the One Power in proximity to Shayol Ghul (the source of the True Power) can have unpredictable reactions. Nor have you explained why Nynaeve should suddenly be able to see these weaves when she didn't see weaves associated with a single thing Moggy did in TAR in that scene.

Lastly, you haven't shown why Moggy would make herself even more tired by drawing immense amounts of saidar at the exact moment she was straining to push Birgette out of TAR.

These are my answers to your questions.

Regarding the duel between Nynaeve and Moghidien in Tanchico, it seems clear to me that Moghidien did not view Nynaeve as a serious threat. The Forsaken only use the True Power in cases of dire need and Moghidien clearly did not feel that the need was great enough to offset the risk.

I don't see how proximity to Shayol Ghul is relevant since none of the scenes in question take place there.

Finally, wouldn't Nynaeve's inability to see Moghidien's weaves be evidence FOR use of the True Power and not against it?


If the OP can't be used to do anything that disrupts the order of things, how in the world is Balefire an OP weave then? And Belfire does reverse death, and has done so for two major characters. Again, here is a sign of the OP reversing death.

That's a good question. However, balefire is limited in scope and the window to "reverse death" is usually limited to half an hour or so.

In the case of what Moghidien did to Birgitte, we're talking about resurrecting someone who has been dead for centuries. Possibly longer. To me, that seems like it should be outside the capabilities of Jane Q. Aes Sedai. I mean without some kind of limiting factor, any woman with a dream ter'angeal and access to the True Source can just go into Tel'Aran'Rhiod and conjure herself an army of dead Heroes. I'm not willing to accept that as a possibility without direct confirmation from Brandon himself.

Yea, nice cop out, that...

It's not a cop out; I genuinely believe that we don't have enough information to decide one way or another so I think it best to just agree to disagree. After all, it's only a book.

fionwe1987
01-15-2012, 06:30 PM
These are my answers to your questions.

Regarding the duel between Nynaeve and Moghidien in Tanchico, it seems clear to me that Moghidien did not view Nynaeve as a serious threat. The Forsaken only use the True Power in cases of dire need and Moghidien clearly did not feel that the need was great enough to offset the risk.
This was true at the beginning of the fight. But when Nynaeve matched her strength for strength, and the battle was going nowhere, Moghedien began babbling. She was clearly afraid, and clearly out of resources to defeat Nynaeve. The fact that she didn't use the True Power at this stage is a pretty convincing sign that it cannot be used with saidar.

I don't see how proximity to Shayol Ghul is relevant since none of the scenes in question take place there.
Proximity to Shayol Ghul is ONE example of the weird reaction between the OP and the TP. The crossing Balefire streams are another. RJ's statement was that the TP and the OP caused very weird reactions together. So when both powers are flowing down the same conduit in a single person (something we have NEVER seen happen in the series), we can definitely expect some very weird reactions.

Finally, wouldn't Nynaeve's inability to see Moghidien's weaves be evidence FOR use of the True Power and not against it?
No, they would be evidence for the fact that Nynaeve wasn't very good with such things when she was blocked, and could also indicate reversed weaves, which we know Moghedien can use.

That's a good question. However, balefire is limited in scope and the window to "reverse death" is usually limited to half an hour or so.
I'm not saying that Balefire is a cure all for death. But it can clearly reverse it, and even when it doesn't do so, it plays hell with the Pattern, just as Moghedien's weave ripping Birgette from TAR would have done. Which negates your point that OP weaves that disrupt the Pattern don't exist.

In the case of what Moghidien did to Birgitte, we're talking about resurrecting someone who has been dead for centuries. Possibly longer. To me, that seems like it should be outside the capabilities of Jane Q. Aes Sedai. I mean without some kind of limiting factor, any woman with a dream ter'angeal and access to the True Source can just go into Tel'Aran'Rhiod and conjure herself an army of dead Heroes. I'm not willing to accept that as a possibility without direct confirmation from Brandon himself.
This is not the work of a random AS. This is the work of the strongest Dreamwalker known in the series (maybe barring Egwene), who is a skilled channeler to boot. Also, channelers in the AoL could get souls into constructed bodies like the Nym. While we have no clue whether they could get specific souls, the fact that "death" can in this way be reversed with the OP refutes your argument that Aes Sedai can't play with souls and rebirth.

Let us also remember the Horn of Valere. While not made of the OP (and possibly predating it), it is not a thing of the TP either. Yet it can create conditions that allow for all the Heroes to enter the Real World (creating a rift in the Pattern, according to RJ) and affect it pretty drastically. If pre-OP human powers could create such major rifts in the Pattern and allow the Heroes to return at the will of a random human being, why shouldn't the OP allow something similar for extremely skilled Dreamwalkers?

It's not a cop out; I genuinely believe that we don't have enough information to decide one way or another so I think it best to just agree to disagree. After all, it's only a book.
It is only a book, but a book which has plenty of details that can corroborate or disprove this particular point.

fdsaf3
01-15-2012, 07:06 PM
What a load of crock. I pointed out that if Moghedien could indeed use the TP and saidar at once, she would have done so against Nynaeve in tSR.

I find your belligerence and overstated conviction in your own logic disturbing. Feel free to disagree with someone; hell, it's encouraged here. But be respectful when you do.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That means your argument that Moghedien not using the TP and saidar at the same time in her battle in TSR isn't conclusive proof of anything other than the fact that she didn't.

Unless you have a quote from RJ or Brandon or a line in the text which says "channelers can't use both TP and OP at the same time", it's all conjecture.

Seeker
01-15-2012, 07:27 PM
This was true at the beginning of the fight. But when Nynaeve matched her strength for strength, and the battle was going nowhere, Moghedien began babbling. She was clearly afraid, and clearly out of resources to defeat Nynaeve. The fact that she didn't use the True Power at this stage is a pretty convincing sign that it cannot be used with saidar.

Not to me, it isn't. I don't think Moghidien would touch the True Power unless she wanted to use one of the weaves that can't be formed with saidar. In my opinion, if she wanted to rip Birgitte out of the World of Dreams, she would have no choice but to use the True Power but shielding or stilling Nynaeve could be done with saidar.


Proximity to Shayol Ghul is ONE example of the weird reaction between the OP and the TP. The crossing Balefire streams are another. RJ's statement was that the TP and the OP caused very weird reactions together. So when both powers are flowing down the same conduit in a single person (something we have NEVER seen happen in the series), we can definitely expect some very weird reactions.

Weird reactions like ripping a soul out of the World of Dreams? I'd consider that pretty weird.

I'd have to know the exact words RJ used if you want a deeper response. Anyone have the quotation handy?


No, they would be evidence for the fact that Nynaeve wasn't very good with such things when she was blocked, and could also indicate reversed weaves, which we know Moghedien can use.

Yes, it could indicate reversed weaves. I just don't think that's the answer. As I said, nothing short of the word of Brandon or Maria will convince me that you can remove a soul from Tel'Aran'Rhiod using the One Power alone.

Now, you're welcome to believe differently because I'm not trying to convince you of my point of view.


I'm not saying that Balefire is a cure all for death. But it can clearly reverse it, and even when it doesn't do so, it plays hell with the Pattern, just as Moghedien's weave ripping Birgette from TAR would have done. Which negates your point that OP weaves that disrupt the Pattern don't exist.

Please don't mistake me here. There are One Power weaves - like Balefire - that can disrupt the Pattern. But Balefire is limited in scope. It can destroy the Pattern, unravel the Pattern.

It can't rewrite the Pattern to introduce new threads that weren't already there.

When you really think about it, what Moghidien did is close to god-like. She changed the very weave of fate and raised someone who had been dead for centuries. She altered the course of history. As I said, I cannot accept that any human being could do this without help from an outside source. Quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned only the Dark One or the Creator could have managed such a thing.


This is not the work of a random AS. This is the work of the strongest Dreamwalker known in the series (maybe barring Egwene), who is a skilled channeler to boot. Also, channelers in the AoL could get souls into constructed bodies like the Nym. While we have no clue whether they could get specific souls, the fact that "death" can in this way be reversed with the OP refutes your argument that Aes Sedai can't play with souls and rebirth.

The Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends created Nym embryos. The Pattern imbued those embryos with souls, not the Aes Sedai.

Human beings cannot touch souls in my opinion. It is beyond the scope of human ability. Only the Dark One or the Creator can move souls around. The Pattern is a form of automation that the Creator put in place to move souls around so that he wouldn't have to. Humans cannot rewrite the pattern or change its parameters.

The Pattern was set up to handle issues like the Nym in advance. The Creator programmed it to treat a Nym body as a viable receptacle for a human soul. Humans had nothing to do with it.

The only way in which a human being can deliberately move souls around is to receive help from an outside source, either the Creator (who won't give it) or the Dark One (in the form of the True Power).

Now, this is all opinion and it could be wrong. But we don't have information on this subject because RJ deliberately avoided answering questions that dealt with mechanics of how souls get recycled.

If you want to believe that humans can influence souls, nothing says you can't. I simply do not share your belief. Unless Brandon or Maria comes out here and settles this argument, both positions are valid.


Let us also remember the Horn of Valere. While not made of the OP (and possibly predating it), it is not a thing of the TP either. Yet it can create conditions that allow for all the Heroes to enter the Real World (creating a rift in the Pattern, according to RJ) and affect it pretty drastically. If pre-OP human powers could create such major rifts in the Pattern and allow the Heroes to return at the will of a random human being, why shouldn't the OP allow something similar for extremely skilled Dreamwalkers?

The only thing I know about the Horn of Valere prior to its discovery by Rand is that it was kept in a museum during the Age of Legends. To me, the Horn is a mystery, sort of like Tom Bombadil in Middle Earth.

I have serious doubts that the Horn is a man-made artifact and I can find no quotes to answer that question one way or another.

Sukoto
01-15-2012, 07:28 PM
I'd like to point out that the DO has to give permission for anyone to touch the TP. Moghedien didn't necessarily have permission at the time. And this has nothing to do with cuendillar. Seriously.

suttree
01-15-2012, 07:32 PM
The only way in which a human being can deliberately move souls around is to receive help from an outside source, either the Creator (who won't give it) or the Dark One (in the form of the True Power).


Have a chance to go through that scene yet where Moridin does so with the OP?

Cortar
01-15-2012, 07:46 PM
These are my answers to your questions.

Regarding the duel between Nynaeve and Moghidien in Tanchico, it seems clear to me that Moghidien did not view Nynaeve as a serious threat. The Forsaken only use the True Power in cases of dire need and Moghidien clearly did not feel that the need was great enough to offset the risk.

Go back and read that passage. Moggy was very clearly under duress and at her limit.



Finally, wouldn't Nynaeve's inability to see Moghidien's weaves be evidence FOR use of the True Power and not against it?

What he is saying is that she inverted all of her weaves with Saidar which is why you never saw anything. If she never used Saidar why was she holding it?




That's a good question. However, balefire is limited in scope and the window to "reverse death" is usually limited to half an hour or so.

In the case of what Moghidien did to Birgitte, we're talking about resurrecting someone who has been dead for centuries. Possibly longer. To me, that seems like it should be outside the capabilities of Jane Q. Aes Sedai. I mean without some kind of limiting factor, any woman with a dream ter'angeal and access to the True Source can just go into Tel'Aran'Rhiod and conjure herself an army of dead Heroes. I'm not willing to accept that as a possibility without direct confirmation from Brandon himself.

The Wise Ones said you could bring people into the World of Dreams, I don't see why you can't take people out just as easily. And I don't think THEY were using the TS to do this

Lupusdeusest
01-15-2012, 07:52 PM
That's the other thing - to what depth can we say "because of God"?

Seeker
01-15-2012, 08:11 PM
Go back and read that passage. Moggy was very clearly under duress and at her limit.

Referring to the fight in Tanchico.

As I already said, Moghidien would only use the True Power to do something that cannot be done with the One Power. She can shield and still Nynaeve just fine with saidar. So, she has no cause to use the True Power in this fight.



What he is saying is that she inverted all of her weaves with Saidar which is why you never saw anything. If she never used Saidar why was she holding it?

Referring to the fight in Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

She did use saidar in her battle with Nynaeve. Until Birgitte showed up, she had no cause to touch the True Power. It wasn't until she wanted to do something that cannot be done with the One Power that she went to the Dark One for aide.

Moghidien was holding saidar the entire time. She took hold of the True Power shortly after Birgitte's arrow pierced her chest and used it to pull Birgitte out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

The Wise Ones said you could bring people into the World of Dreams, I don't see why you can't take people out just as easily. And I don't think THEY were using the TS to do this

I am reasonably certain that the Wise Ones were talking about pulling a sleeping person's mind into Tel'Aran'Rhiod. I don't think you can bring someone's body into the World of Dreams without a gateway.

eht slat meit
01-15-2012, 08:24 PM
That still leaves open the fairly glaring fact that cuendillar is much rarer on the surface than iron is, which would not be the case if most of the availaible iron had been converted to cuendillar in previous Turns.

There is no information to support the theory that there have been enough Turnings of the Wheel to significantly diminish Randland's supply of iron. Infinity in this case does not run backwards - there was a point of creation, before Turnings.

So either it had not been converted (which runs into the problems I've mentioned before) or it has returned to being iron again.

There is no problem with it not being converted. If by some happenstance, every trace bit of iron through the world of Randland suddenly and irrevocably got saidar'ed into cuendillar, it would be irrelevant to their day to day lives.

Well, except for making mining any place that used to contain iron an absolute -bitch-.

And now for something completely different:
Why does everyone assume that cuendillar can be made only from iron?

Because there is absolutely nothing in the books to support the notion of it coming from anything else. In fact, something made from a different base with the same weaves would be a different product entirely. Call it Cuendillarium or Cuendillarite, it's still not Cuendillar. Cuendillar = Iron + Cuendillar weaves Weaves

We know that's how Egwene does it, so that works. But other starting materials (possibly with a different weave) may also work, and that may explain why there are different colors for different pieces of cuendillar.

Or that could be explained by the color it started out with as iron...

Seeker
01-15-2012, 08:26 PM
Have a chance to go through that scene yet where Moridin does so with the OP?

At your request, I just read through the scene that I THINK you're talking about, which is Rand's battle with Ishamael (not Moridin) in the Stone of Tear.

I'll summarize the scene for you.

Ishamael shows up and shoots Moiraine with black lightning. (Black tends to be associated with the True Power).

He makes a few gloating comments, then tells Rand that he intends to steal Rand's soul. Rand feels a ripping sensation, then leaps and grabs Callandor. The flow of the One Power protects him in some way.

Rand turns to face Ishamael and says, "You will not take my soul."

And, I quote:

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

So, this looks like True Power traveling to me.

Now let's continue.

For a moment, Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of - folding - as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out through Callandor and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else.

So, Rand made a gateway.

So, to me, this scene reads very much as if Ishamael was using the True Power but Rand was using saidin.

Now, how was Rand able to follow him? Well, I think people are confused because they assume that Rand is reading the residues of Ishamael's traveling weave as he did with Sammael in A Crown of Swords.

But that's not what the scene says. Rand is clearly able to sense the effects of what Ishamael did, not the flows themselves but the effect they have on the Pattern. It's like how you don't have to see a flow of Fire to see the fireball it creates.

Rand is sensing the result, not the weave. Since Rand seems to be a savant when it comes to gateways, this is probably a Talent for him.

So, in conclusion, Ishamael was using the True Power to steal Rand's soul and to enter Tel'Aran'Rhiod; Rand followed him with the One Power.

suttree
01-15-2012, 11:29 PM
At your request, I just read through the scene that I THINK you're talking about, which is Rand's battle with Ishamael (not Moridin) in the Stone of Tear.


:rolleyes:

The fireball analogy does not really work in the slightest. Seeing and sensing are two very different things. It takes a fair amount mental gymnastics to turn that into him having some new talent that has never been mentioned for him. In addition how would he have been able to follow him if Moridin had used the TP?

Not to mention every time TP travelling is described it says he is "ripping a hole in the fabric of the pattern". That is very different than "bending" or "folding" so no the description is not similar. First if it was the TP Rand would have sensed nothing, second if for the sake of argument he could sense it, he would have sensed a ripping hole.

Green Man 22
01-16-2012, 12:59 AM
This back and forth discussion on whether Moghedien and Ishamael were using saidin/saidar or the True Power is hilarious.

Seeker, you are basically using the lack of any sure evidence to prove your point, while the other side is using the fact that there doesn't appear to be any instance of this happening anywhere else in the entire series.

I have to agree that there is no way to settle the dispute based on what we have in the books.

I still think that inverted weaves of saidar would be a much simpler explanation than the TP, but it can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Lupusdeusest
01-16-2012, 02:16 AM
I always thought black cuendillar was din and white dar.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-16-2012, 04:04 AM
But my point was that there's really no reason to assume that any difficulties in performing the cuendillar weave are because Egwene made it up. Yes, she did make it up, but she also figured out at least one other weave (Traveling) that nobody had any problems with. In addition, the reasons why other channelers are likely to have had difficulties with the cuendillar weave (i.e., in making cuendillar as fast as Egwene) have been spelled out by RJ: (1) Making cuendillar requires strength in Earth above all. (2) Egwene is very strong in Earth. (3) Strength in Earth is not generally something that female channelers have much of, anyway. (4) Strength in Earth has faded significantly during the Third Age.

The point is that in Aviendha's case, she had already learned how to make the weave in one particular way, and therefore had trouble making it in a slightly different way.

However, where the problems with other channelers making cuendillar differ from your examples of making gateways or performing weaves with requisite gestures is that none of the Aes Sedai, novices, or Accepted had ever made cuendillar before. So all those difficulties as a result of trying to form weaves that were too similar to other weaves that a channeler had previously learned can be thrown out – any difficulties that others have had in making cuendillar are not related.

So there is apparently some natural consistency in how weaves must generally be formed to perform certain tasks. I do agree with you, though, that part of the reason that Third Agers have figured out new uses of the One Power, such as Warder Bonds and Healing severing, is that they are ignorant of many of the perceived limitations in the Age of Legends. And even Cadsuane has fretted about the lack of originality of many channelers:


We agree on most points overall, just one small note: I was responding to the question of why cuendillar wasn't made in large quantities in AoL if the weave is really so simple. Answer: Egwene's weave is - perhaps - more efficient or doesn't take into account any obstacles that may have limited cuendillar production in AoL.

Also, currently we've only seen cuendillar made by saidar. Presumably in AoL both males and females could make it but what if it's a weave that only works with saidar? that would limit the possible number of channelers severely seeing as Earth is generally a weak power for women.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2012, 04:44 AM
I have serious doubts that the Horn is a man-made artifact and I can find no quotes to answer that question one way or another.
Well, there is the following:
RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren’t gods.
That does indeed suggest that it was not man-made. The *finn are a definite possibility, though, as are the Ogier. It might have been some enterprising Gholam, though I have my doubts about that.

As I already said, Moghidien would only use the True Power to do something that cannot be done with the One Power. She can shield and still Nynaeve just fine with saidar. So, she has no cause to use the True Power in this fight.
But how about when, during that fight, it became very clear to her that she could not trust that ability to shield or still Nynaeve? During the final stages, it must have been obvious to her that both of them had no more than a one in two chance of being victorious. That's not really the kind of odds Moghedien would be happy with, and if she had any way of improving the odds, she would take it. As Nynaeve did, of course, as she was inexperienced enough not to totally focus on channeling.

Seeker
01-16-2012, 07:10 AM
:rolleyes:

The fireball analogy does not really work in the slightest. Seeing and sensing are two very different things. It takes a fair amount mental gymnastics to turn that into him having some new talent that has never been mentioned for him. In addition how would he have been able to follow him if Moridin had used the TP?

Not to mention every time TP travelling is described it says he is "ripping a hole in the fabric of the pattern". That is very different than "bending" or "folding" so no the description is not similar. First if it was the TP Rand would have sensed nothing, second if for the sake of argument he could sense it, he would have sensed a ripping hole.
This is where the inherent subjectivity comes into play. We all read the same words but those words create different impressions in our minds.

I want you to understand that I am not lying or performing "mental gymnastics" to win an argument - nor do I believe you are doing so - but rather RJ's words create different feelings and imagery in my mind.

I see black lightning and a man who vanishes into thin air and I think, "That must be the True Power."

I read these words...

For a moment, Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of -folding - as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was.

...And I think, Rand is sensing a fold in the Pattern. My mind looks for specific things. Among them, I note that the words "weave" and "flows" are not mentioned in that paragraph. And from their absence, I deduce that Rand is not sensing the flows Ishamael wove but rather their effect on the Pattern.

It's not that I'm using lack of evidence to prove a point - to me, black lightning and a man vanishing are strong indicators of the True Power - it's that we have different concepts of what counts as admissible evidence. This isn't like a physical science where we can form a hypothesis and then test it with repeatable results. We have only the words that RJ wrote and those words create a different impression in everyone who reads them.

Those different impressions are caused by the fact that a word which I see as incredibly significant may be irrelevant to someone else. Perhaps my opponents see nothing relevant in the fact that words like "weave" and "flows" were not mentioned in that paragraph. Of course, Rand saw the flows, they conclude. How else could he copy them? It's so obvious that RJ didn't feel the need to mention it.

Only it's not obvious. It only appears obvious because we rarely see the need to question our own impressions.

Perhaps my opponents think nothing of the fact that Ishamael shot black lightning or that he vanished. I could label this mental gymnastics on their part but that would be disingenuous. Different people ascribe importance to different things and the only final judge is a statement from RJ or Brandon.

And I often think that RJ was right not to settle these arguments. Controversy is what makes these books fun.

So, please, understand that you're not going to be able to convince me of your point of view because you're not going to be able to make me see the same things you do even though we're reading the same words.

Grig
01-16-2012, 11:17 AM
But but....if one can only rip a soul out of TAR with the True Power, how is Nynaeve going to bring Rand back after he dies?

Therefore you can rip people out of TAR with the OP. QED? lol. I have as much evidence as Seeker on this point when it comes to whether the TP was used or not, sadly.

I shouldn't, but...

Perhaps my opponents think nothing of the fact that Ishamael shot black lightning

You mean like Rand and Sammael did in Illian?

that he vanished

You mean, like anyone does when they make the "real world to TAR in the flesh gateway using the OP"?

Dajoran
01-16-2012, 11:34 AM
I read these words...



...And I think, Rand is sensing a fold in the Pattern. My mind looks for specific things. Among them, I note that the words "weave" and "flows" are not mentioned in that paragraph. And from their absence, I deduce that Rand is not sensing the flows Ishamael wove but rather their effect on the Pattern.

It's not that I'm using lack of evidence to prove a point - to me, black lightning and a man vanishing are strong indicators of the True Power - it's that we have different concepts of what counts as admissible evidence. This isn't like a physical science where we can form a hypothesis and then test it with repeatable results. We have only the words that RJ wrote and those words create a different impression in everyone who reads them.



I understand what you are trying to say here as we are all guilty of taking something ambiguous and making it fit our own ideas of what we read - this is down to our own minds and how they find the story, which is perfectly acceptable.

However, I cannot agree that this was the TP in action at this point - when travelling/skimming with the TP is described as causing the pattern to scream out because there is this malignant force tearing a hole in it - and when travelling/skimming with the OP is described as a folding of the pattern 'to make two points the same'... this is Occam's Razor to me - it is what it is, and it's described like a OP action.

Crispin's Crispian
01-16-2012, 12:07 PM
...And I think, Rand is sensing a fold in the Pattern. My mind looks for specific things. Among them, I note that the words "weave" and "flows" are not mentioned in that paragraph. And from their absence, I deduce that Rand is not sensing the flows Ishamael wove but rather their effect on the Pattern.
I know what you're saying, Seeker, but I think later evidence proves this point (at least) wrong.

Rand in Caemlyn, chasing Rahvin:

Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel – he knew now that was what he had done – into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.Unless there was another time when Rand made a Gateway to TAR in Tear, he's talking about chasing Isha'mael. And it's clear that he doesn't just recognize the concept, he recognizes the specific weaves.

This doesn't prove 100% that Isha'mael was using the One Power, but it does show that Rand was sensing something more than just a folding Pattern.

fionwe1987
01-16-2012, 01:23 PM
This doesn't prove 100% that Isha'mael was using the One Power, but it does show that Rand was sensing something more than just a folding Pattern.
Thanks for that quote. I was going insane looking for it. I think it is pretty clear that Ishamael did indeed use the OP (though he did shift to the TP later in that fight).

77jester
01-17-2012, 12:57 AM
Knowing its properties, how does the Breaking make sense?

(1) Its not THAT hard to make. Egwene can make a lot of it pretty quickly, and there are quite a few (considering the population of Aes Sedia) who can be taught how to make it.

Thus, why weren't buildings made of it? I know it was a peaceful time but surely they had earthquakes and tornadoes and other such disasters. At the very least when the War of the Power got into full swing you would think they would make their cities into heartstone to help against attacks from the Shadow

Furthermore, why wasn't soldier's armor made of it? It sounds like it would make you invincible. If it was too heavy (which it doesn't sound like considering you could make it paper thin) then why weren't their tanks or shields used it with. Why couldn't you build a dome of it around a city (including the farmland) and make that city untouchable?

(2) Its indestructible.... So where is it? In the books its extremely rare but because its indestructibility and the wheel of time is endless, shouldn't there but an infinite amount of it laying around? At the very least there should be a lot more from the last Age around.

Cortar I want to compliment you on an interesting set of questions. All of them have real merit, and I have wondered about them too. Unfortunately anyone who wanted to comment had to wade through nine pages of bullsh** debating who had the better set of math equations. Seriously guys it doesn't matter how accurate or inaccurate your arithmetic is when you don't understand the basic word problem. Yes his use of the word infinite was poorly chosen, but any moron could see he was asking if cuendillar is indestructible and the wheel keeps on turning why don't we see an increase in the amount rather than the rarity that it was before Egwene started mass producing. Seriously go back to basic Math, 1+1 cannot equal -3.
Enough ranting about the failure that this thread was becoming.
Obviously the Aes Sedai assumption that cuendillar is indestructible is just as false as their assumption that severing cannot be healed. I know that was pointed out earlier, and I apologize to the only sane person to respond to you for forgetting their name.

As for Armor, I would like to see some made. It's not that hard to get around the mobility issues that make the majority here dismiss it. Chain mail is very flexible and would be effective if the channeler changed the rings individually. The same with overlapping plates, a shield, or a face mask. Something simple would still be better than nothing.
Traveling doesn't eliminate the value of cuendillar buildings either. We know they had/have dreamspikes that obviously prevent traveling combine that with a wall and dome or fortress like the Stone of Tear converted to cuendillar it might as well be indestructible. At the very least underground bunkers.
I don't understand why so many think that cuendillar can't have moving parts. The chain for the bridges were fused together by intent. The goblets got fused by accident from not paying attention. I don't recall there being a statement that it always fuses together. But even if that were the case there are other materials that could be used to connect. The possibilities are endless with enough imagination.

eht slat meit
01-17-2012, 01:46 AM
Traveling doesn't eliminate the value of cuendillar buildings either. We know they had/have dreamspikes that obviously prevent traveling combine that with a wall and dome or fortress like the Stone of Tear converted to cuendillar it might as well be indestructible. At the very least underground bunkers.

Just on the subject of cuendillar buildings alone, I'll point out that they're terribly impractical and a huge safety hazard.

The former should be obvious enough. In an Age where cuendillar is considered "indestructible" because there is no way to remove it, you are -stuck- with any building you make from it, long after it outlives its purpose. Underground bunkers? What use does an Age of Peace like the AOL have for that? Strategically, it's weak - open up a gateway into said bunker, channel a gout of flame, and everyone inside is now trapped in an oven of their own making.

And on that note - safety hazads. You'd think that a cuendillar building would be safe from an earthquake, and technically you'll be right. The quake won't do a smidge of damage to the building. Meanwhile, the ground falls in, the building is now a permanent ruin and because that structure is immovable, it cannot be restored. Nevermind the loss of life.

What it comes down to is that while imagination may be unlimited (and yeah, there are a lot of theoretical applications), so are the practical considerations and hazards inherent to building something that can't be removed or destroyed.

Imagine building a house and then realizing that you got the dimensions wrong. Oops.

Weird Harold
01-17-2012, 05:25 AM
As for Armor, I would like to see some made. It's not that hard to get around the mobility issues that make the majority here dismiss it. Chain mail is very flexible and would be effective if the channeler changed the rings individually. The same with overlapping plates, a shield, or a face mask. Something simple would still be better than nothing.
...
I don't understand why so many think that cuendillar can't have moving parts. The chain for the bridges were fused together by intent. The goblets got fused by accident from not paying attention. I don't recall there being a statement that it always fuses together.

There is no direct statement that the weave to convert iron to cuendillar converts all iron within the weave into a single piece of cuendillar, but RJ was never that crude about supplying information. The incident with the goblets is there to provide that bit of information in a more interesting format than a flat statement.

Armor is made in segments and fitted to each individual by an armorer. No such fitting would be possible with Cuendillar. Each piece or ring in a set of armor would have to be made with a separate weave which for anyone except egwene takes a measurable amount of time; for many channalers as much as a minute or more. For any sort of mass production -- enough armor to equip just senior officers, or elite units, for example -- is going to require using even the slowest of cuendillar makers, so production of cuendillar armor is going to require time and channelers the Light can't really spare.

In the AOL, they could have diverted the resources
to make cuendillar armor, weapons, or buildings but didn't; implying thst they either didn't consider it cost-effective or that they had better, cheaper options for armor, weapons, and construction materials.

Landro
01-17-2012, 05:32 AM
Bear in mind that the reason why many AS are slow when making Cuendillar is because it requires high strength in Earth which is very rare amongst women. Since men tend to be stronger in Earth it would be logical to assume that a higher percentage of men would be able to match Egwene's speed.

Weird Harold
01-17-2012, 05:52 AM
Bear in mind that the reason why many AS are slow when making Cuendillar is because it requires high strength in Earth which is very rare amongst women. Since men tend to be stronger in Earth it would be logical to assume that a higher percentage of men would be able to match Egwene's speed.
so you have five people who can covert iron to cuendillar as fast as the can form the weave; that still isn't enough people for mass production without using the slower channelers.

Bottom line is that the AOL had enough channelers and resources to implement all of the grand ideas for using cuendillar being proposed, yet the chose not to. Probably because they had more cost-effective alternatives that performed as well, or at least well enough.

77jester
01-17-2012, 09:48 AM
Just on the subject of cuendillar buildings alone, I'll point out that they're terribly impractical and a huge safety hazard.

The former should be obvious enough. In an Age where cuendillar is considered "indestructible" because there is no way to remove it, you are -stuck- with any building you make from it, long after it outlives its purpose. Underground bunkers? What use does an Age of Peace like the AOL have for that? Strategically, it's weak - open up a gateway into said bunker, channel a gout of flame, and everyone inside is now trapped in an oven of their own making.

And on that note - safety hazads. You'd think that a cuendillar building would be safe from an earthquake, and technically you'll be right. The quake won't do a smidge of damage to the building. Meanwhile, the ground falls in, the building is now a permanent ruin and because that structure is immovable, it cannot be restored. Nevermind the loss of life.

What it comes down to is that while imagination may be unlimited (and yeah, there are a lot of theoretical applications), so are the practical considerations and hazards inherent to building something that can't be removed or destroyed.

Imagine building a house and then realizing that you got the dimensions wrong. Oops.

Again Why are are you limiting the creativity of builders? You could just as easily make the basic framework of the building into cuendillar and then add on to the building to decorate to your liking. "Look at my wonderful stucco mansion. The frame is cuendillar so next time there is an earthquake I'll be fine under that doorway" :D
or here is our town hall where everyone can come together and feel safe in our cuendillar shelter.
Traveling into said bunker to torch the insides isn't an option with a dream spike. We know for a certainty they at least had 2. That put's security back to conventional means, guards, checkpoints, killing corridors like the stone of tear, whatever. It still takes care of eliminating several threats permanently.
And why can't the ground be restored? You have channelers that are able to move mountains, suddenly shifting a building or putting compacted dirt back in place is impossible?

There are plenty of real world buildings that might as well be considered indestructible, being as how they've been standing for hundreds of years unchanged. Heck look at the pyramids. Their purposes don't have to stay same, but there are some basic buildings that don't need to change.

I'm not saying every building should have been converted to cuendillar, but there definitely could have been a few well thought out choices made.

77jester
01-17-2012, 09:58 AM
so you have five people who can covert iron to cuendillar as fast as the can form the weave; that still isn't enough people for mass production without using the slower channelers.

Bottom line is that the AOL had enough channelers and resources to implement all of the grand ideas for using cuendillar being proposed, yet the chose not to. Probably because they had more cost-effective alternatives that performed as well, or at least well enough.

It doesn't have to be mass produced for every single soldier, but a few key generals could definitely benefit from a nice cuendillar breastplate. How is that any different from Elayne trying to replicate Matt's medallion? It doesn't protect from everything either but it has value in eliminating a specific threat.

Landro
01-17-2012, 10:57 AM
It doesn't have to be mass produced for every single soldier, but a few key generals could definitely benefit from a nice cuendillar breastplate. How is that any different from Elayne trying to replicate Matt's medallion? It doesn't protect from everything either but it has value in eliminating a specific threat.

That would only be sensible if the generals were on the frontline which is where they shouldn't be. Better issue them to some elite shock troops who will be used to breach enemy lines.

eht slat meit
01-17-2012, 11:12 AM
Again Why are are you limiting the creativity of builders? You could just as easily make the basic framework of the building into cuendillar and then add on to the building to decorate to your liking. "Look at my wonderful stucco mansion. The frame is cuendillar so next time there is an earthquake I'll be fine under that doorway" :D
or here is our town hall where everyone can come together and feel safe in our cuendillar shelter.
Traveling into said bunker to torch the insides isn't an option with a dream spike. We know for a certainty they at least had 2. That put's security back to conventional means, guards, checkpoints, killing corridors like the stone of tear, whatever. It still takes care of eliminating several threats permanently.
And why can't the ground be restored? You have channelers that are able to move mountains, suddenly shifting a building or putting compacted dirt back in place is impossible?

There are plenty of real world buildings that might as well be considered indestructible, being as how they've been standing for hundreds of years unchanged. Heck look at the pyramids. Their purposes don't have to stay same, but there are some basic buildings that don't need to change.

I'm not saying every building should have been converted to cuendillar, but there definitely could have been a few well thought out choices made.

I'm not limiting the creativity of the builders, RJ is. It's his world, and plays by the rules he established. While you may think it is completely irrational on RJ's part that not a single building made of cuendillar exists, I do not, and believe that these reasons I've outlined are sufficient to lay at least a minimum of groundwork towards explaining his decision.

Another reason - Understand that in the time frame that cuendillar became of military value, LTT and the entire world was practically REINVENTING large-scale (not sure there wasn't any actual regional combat) warfare from scratch. Recall that the idea of fighting with swords was high concept, and killing with them was unthinkable.

I'm not going into a long-winded explanation of those limitations again, but as far as buildings are concerned, consider what it takes to build a structure. First, you need a blueprint and a foundation. Then you need the actual resources, the structural elements made from the iron. At that point, you actually have to build the house or whatever. Then you have to devote enough channelers to changing that structure to cuendillar.

Oh, and you have to do all this from complete scratch, because nobody has -ever- built a cuendillar structure in that Age.

As far as moving whole buildings with the power, when did even Rand ever do something on that scale alone? Such would require a number of linked channelers, who would require guards of their own so they aren't slaughtered while doing it.

Each building of cuendillar becomes a major expenditure of resources and time - meanwhile the Forsaken are converting entire swatches of human territory to the Shadow while these channelers are saidar'ing themselves indestructible buildings.

Worthwhile? Really? Cuendillar buildings are appealing on a visual "Kewlness" level, but it doesn't seem like a worthy expenditure of effort.

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2012, 11:22 AM
That would only be sensible if the generals were on the frontline which is where they shouldn't be. Better issue them to some elite shock troops who will be used to breach enemy lines.
Or give them to the hobbits which are carrying that unimportant little ring to the nice volcano.

77jester
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
That would only be sensible if the generals were on the frontline which is where they shouldn't be. Better issue them to some elite shock troops who will be used to breach enemy lines.

Again the same could be said of Matt's medallion. Obviously it has a valuable purpose in thwarting a few specific attacks. You never know when something unexpected may be prevented by a nifty piece of cuendillar armor ie the stray crossbow bolt or random fireball, heck even a deathgate. better to lose an arm than be cut in half. If those few Aes Sedai could sit around most of the day and perfect their cuendillar making on dishes to make money. Why can't a few pieces of simple armor be made for a just in case scenario? Let alone if an Ashaman figures out how to do it also.

Oden
01-17-2012, 11:53 AM
As far as moving whole buildings with the power, when did even Rand ever do something on that scale alone? Such would require a number of linked channelers, who would require guards of their own so they aren't slaughtered while doing it.


However did the mad male Aes Sedai break the world by shifting oceans, leveling mountains and raising others (see Dragon Mount and the harbour on the slope in tFoH)?


Each building of cuendillar becomes a major expenditure of resources and time - meanwhile the Forsaken are converting entire swatches of human territory to the Shadow while these channelers are saidar'ing themselves indestructible buildings.

I had the impression that Cuendillar was around before the Bore. Are you implying that not a single construct was reinforced with Cuendillar in order to protect it from the elements? All it required was one channeler, with Egwene's ability, a few seconds to turn an iron frame into heartstone. If the density remains the same and the shape and volume doesn't change, then the transformation from iron only strenghtens the structure.

eht slat meit
01-17-2012, 12:05 PM
However did the mad male Aes Sedai break the world by shifting oceans, leveling mountains and raising others (see Dragon Mount and the harbour on the slope in tFoH)?

Yup! And they did it by drawing greater amounts of the OP than was sane for a single user of the OP to wield. Linking was probably designed to
circumvent completely natural limitations like that.

I had the impression that Cuendillar was around before the Bore. Are you implying that not a single construct was reinforced with Cuendillar in order to protect it from the elements? All it required was one channeler, with Egwene's ability, a few seconds to turn an iron frame into heartstone. If the density remains the same and the shape and volume doesn't change, then the transformation from iron only strenghtens the structure.

Reinforced, perhaps, but not whole-cloth construction. As far as reinforcement goes, there are less time-consuming ways and expensive to reinforce a building that don't require creating
a structural item that will outlast the structure itself.

Now, as to the elements? These people controlled the weather in places, and had every bit of the construction prowess our RL Age possesses and then some. There's no reason they shouldn't have been able to build element-friendly structures like our own without the use of cuendillar.

Davian93
01-17-2012, 12:18 PM
If one were to turn a steel (well iron) frame of a building into cuendillar, how would one go about actually attaching things to that frame? Not practical in the least.

EDIT: also, from an engineering standpoint, a building's internal frame is designed to be flexible to deal with seismic activity and ground settling. A cuendillar frame would simply transmite all that energy right to the attached material and cause it to be more dangerous in the long run.



Also, what would happen if one were to toss a piece of cuendillar into the edge of a gateway...is that like dividing by zero?

Terez
01-17-2012, 12:25 PM
Also, what would happen if one were to toss a piece of cuendillar into the edge of a gateway...is that like dividing by zero?INTERVIEW: Jan 16th, 2003COT Signing Report - Michael Martin (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/b6d1f83445423e42)


MICHAEL MARTIN
What happens to a piece of heartstone if a gateway is opened across it?


ROBERT JORDAN
Heartstone is pushed aside, gateway remains intact. (He appeared fairly amused by this one.)
.

Davian93
01-17-2012, 12:31 PM
Thanks T.

Love that interview database...especially when someone else does the hard work of finding it for me. ;)

77jester
01-17-2012, 12:36 PM
I'm not limiting the creativity of the builders, RJ is. It's his world, and plays by the rules he established. While you may think it is completely irrational on RJ's part that not a single building made of cuendillar exists, I do not, and believe that these reasons I've outlined are sufficient to lay at least a minimum of groundwork towards explaining his decision.

Granted that is true. RJ is obscenely detailed in many areas but skipped this possibility.

Another reason - Understand that in the time frame that cuendillar became of military value, LTT and the entire world was practically REINVENTING large-scale (not sure there wasn't any actual regional combat) warfare from scratch. Recall that the idea of fighting with swords was high concept, and killing with them was unthinkable.

Again a valid point, but not all people think offensively. We know that they did see the value in placing objects of value in (I can't remember term he used off hand, but they're basically stasis chambers.)

I'm not going into a long-winded explanation of those limitations again, but as far as buildings are concerned, consider what it takes to build a structure. First, you need a blueprint and a foundation. Then you need the actual resources, the structural elements made from the iron. At that point, you actually have to build the house or whatever. Then you have to devote enough channelers to changing that structure to cuendillar.

Oh, and you have to do all this from complete scratch, because nobody has -ever- built a cuendillar structure in that Age.

Again the entire building doesn't need to be made from cuendillar to protect what's inside. If Michael Westin can reinforce a sheetrock wall with a cordless drill and steel, what's to prevent the average builder/contractor of the age to take sheet metal or tin foil and coat the inner walls with it for the channeler to come in afterwards and spend a few hrs converting it. How thick do you think the steel has to be to become cuendillar? And yes I said a few hrs at most Leene did the entire bridge chain in a matter of minutes, she's hardly the prodigy just a skillful laborer. If building from scratch all that is necessary to be cuendillar is the basic framework and foundation. Put up temporary interior walls after the fact, like they do in commercial buildings, to make the building what you need of it.

As far as moving whole buildings with the power, when did even Rand ever do something on that scale alone? Such would require a number of linked channelers, who would require guards of their own so they aren't slaughtered while doing it.

Why would they have to be alone? Most relief/cleanup work is always done in mass groups where many hands make the load light. If the building happens to be a central part of the town, like the Winespring Inn, it generally gets focused on first. Then work spreads out.
Slaughtered? Why would anyone worry about a building being out of level during a war?

Each building of cuendillar becomes a major expenditure of resources and time - meanwhile the Forsaken are converting entire swatches of human territory to the Shadow while these channelers are saidar'ing themselves indestructible buildings.

Worthwhile? Really? Cuendillar buildings are appealing on a visual "Kewlness" level, but it doesn't seem like a worthy expenditure of effort.


At this point in the story I absolutely agree that a Cuendillar building is less important since the light side needs to be on the offensive going to the blight not waiting for it to come to them. The "Kewlness" level is a factor also, but a place to put Mothers and children that is safe from Trollocs while the rest are at battle. Cmon. It's hard to be focused on moving forward if your thoughts are worrying about home.

Grig
01-17-2012, 12:37 PM
But what would happen if someone tried to open a gateway into a cuendillar structure built with a deep cuendillar foundation?!? Think of all the energy we could generate, if the gateway can actually move the huge structure! That's a lot of Work (in the physics sense), for not all that much cost as things go.

77jester
01-17-2012, 12:52 PM
If one were to turn a steel (well iron) frame of a building into cuendillar, how would one go about actually attaching things to that frame? Not practical in the least

Before the steel frame is turned, attach/weld threaded bolts in key areas that you need to connect to like do currently. Then just drill a hole in your new material slide over the bolt and your connected.


EDIT: also, from an engineering standpoint, a building's internal frame is designed to be flexible to deal with seismic activity and ground settling. A cuendillar frame would simply transmite all that energy right to the attached material and cause it to be more dangerous in the long run.


I don't have an engineering degree, but wouldn't that only come into play if the cuendillar wasn't one solid piece. I'm assuming the stress has to do with the relatively weaker connecting materials.

eht slat meit
01-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Again the entire building doesn't need to be made from cuendillar to protect what's inside. If Michael Westin can reinforce a sheetrock wall with a cordless drill and steel, what's to prevent the average builder/contractor of the age to take sheet metal or tin foil and coat the inner walls with it for the channeler to come in afterwards and spend a few hrs converting it. How thick do you think the steel has to be to become cuendillar? And yes I said a few hrs at most Leene did the entire bridge chain in a matter of minutes, she's hardly the prodigy just a skillful laborer. If building from scratch all that is necessary to be cuendillar is the basic framework and foundation. Put up temporary interior walls after the fact, like they do in commercial buildings, to make the building what you need of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while I understand the AoL to be legendary for its use of the one power, it was not in fact an industrial age, the kind of ages that are known for expertise in developments like the use iron. Yes, they could rig things up like what you said, but again... that's not a small enterprise if you want to do it safely.

Why would they have to be alone? Most relief/cleanup work is always done in mass groups where many hands make the load light. If the building happens to be a central part of the town, like the Winespring Inn, it generally gets focused on first. Then work spreads out.
Slaughtered? Why would anyone worry about a building being out of level during a war?

That's the point. The more people involved, the more of a target they become in wartime. The second some Forsaken gets wind of a cuendillar structure, send in the shock troops, because it's probably going to be used for something important.

At this point in the story I absolutely agree that a Cuendillar building is less important since the light side needs to be on the offensive going to the blight not waiting for it to come to them. The "Kewlness" level is a factor also, but a place to put Mothers and children that is safe from Trollocs while the rest are at battle. Cmon. It's hard to be focused on moving forward if your thoughts are worrying about home.

Ummm, I'm not even sure how to approach this: You're talking about a vast number of cuendillar buildings if these AoL'ers intend to house every last woman and child in the world to defend them from the trollocs. It's unlikely they even have the resources for that, let alone the devoted labor. This is world war here, not a besieged village with an indispensable supply of iron and channelers at hand.

Lupusdeusest
01-17-2012, 07:38 PM
I don't have an engineering degree, but wouldn't that only come into play if the cuendillar wasn't one solid piece. I'm assuming the stress has to do with the relatively weaker connecting materials.
Have a look at Japanese building structure. It's the most obvious example to what we are trying to say here.
(Also: What if a river washes away part of the ground during a furious wet season? Are you left with an AoL Tower of Pisa?)

Seeker
01-18-2012, 02:13 PM
I know what you're saying, Seeker, but I think later evidence proves this point (at least) wrong.

Rand in Caemlyn, chasing Rahvin:

Unless there was another time when Rand made a Gateway to TAR in Tear, he's talking about chasing Isha'mael. And it's clear that he doesn't just recognize the concept, he recognizes the specific weaves.

This doesn't prove 100% that Isha'mael was using the One Power, but it does show that Rand was sensing something more than just a folding Pattern.

Hey, everyone. Sorry it took so long for me to reply; I was busy flying to Wisconsin to spend some time with my lovely fiancé. Okay, so I'd like to reply to S-Dog. You make a good argument, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. I am still completely convinced that Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone of Tear.

Now, let's look at why.

Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel – he knew now that was what he had done – into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

Here's the problem. Rand didn't see a gateway in Tear – unless you count the one he made himself.

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made the other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.

Slowly, the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon clothed in dead black, like a myrdraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him



He turned to face Ba'alzamon. The tearing within him had ceased as soon as his hand touched Callandor Only an instant had passed yet it seemed to have lasted forever. “You will not take my soul!” he shouted. “This time, I mean to finish it once and for all! I mean to finish it now!”

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

For a moment, Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of – folding – as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out through Callandor and twisted reality to make a doorway to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba'alzamon had gone.

The only gateway that Rand saw was the one he made himself.

“Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.”

That is not a gateway. No amount of mental gymnastics on my part will make me see a gateway when I read that sentence. I will picture exactly what the author describes and what RJ described is a man who vanishes as people do when they use the True Power to travel.

Moreover, Ishamael's grand entrance speaks of a shadow descending and then resolving into the figure of Ba'alzamon, which is almost identical to this:

Behind him, the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly in distaste.

RJ identified the latter as traveling with the True Power, which means that Ishamael's grand entrance in the Stone of Tear was almost certainly the same thing. So, we can conclude that Ishamael began his confrontation with Rand while holding the True Power and the very first thing he did was try to rip out Rand's soul. This is enough to convince me that he was using the True Power to do so.

And furthermore, I'm all but convinced that he used the True Power to escape. Ishamael did not pass though a gateway when he fled into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, he vanished. Therefore Rand did not see a gateway and when he reflects on those events two books later, he is clearly remembering them incorrectly. This makes him an unreliable narrator and makes the quote about “a remnant of woven saidin” practically useless.

However, suppose I grant that Ishamael deliberately used the One Power to flee so that Rand would be able to follow him.

He clearly started the fight while holding the True Power and he ended the fight while holding it as well. (The part where he says “Aid me!!!”)

“I will not be undone!” Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. “I cannot be defeated! Aid me!” Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

So, the darkness that surrounds him is obviously an edifice of the True Power.

It's with him when he appears.

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made the other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.

Slowly, the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon clothed in dead black, like a myrdraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him

It's with him when he flees Rand.

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

It's with him at the end.

Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

So, since the shadow represents the True Power and it's with him in that moment when he supposedly uses saidin to escape, would that not be proof enough that you can channel the True Power and the One Power at the same time?

suttree
01-18-2012, 03:30 PM
Seeker you have done nothing to address the rip/fold discrepancy. Folding from one place to another is exactly how OP travelling is described and that is what he does.

As for the shadows that could just as easily be MoM's as anything else. You are making a good deal of large assumptions instead of looking at the basic facts.

Crispin's Crispian
01-18-2012, 03:51 PM
Hey, everyone. Sorry it took so long for me to reply; I was busy flying to Wisconsin to spend some time with my lovely fiancé. A likely excuse.

Okay, so I'd like to reply to S-Dog.
Thank you for telling me. :p

That is not a gateway. No amount of mental gymnastics on my part will make me see a gateway when I read that sentence. I will picture exactly what the author describes and what RJ described is a man who vanishes as people do when they use the True Power to travel.

Please provide a quote showing that people simply vanish when they use the True Power. There are only a handful of times we see Isha'mael/Moridin travel, and almost none that aren't from his POV. I can't think off the top of my head when we've seen a TP exit from someone else's POV.

Rand clearly "sensed" something, even if he didn't know what he was seeing. You're right--he doesn't specifically think, "Hey, that guy made a magic doorway!" But his own gateway is clearly a direct response to what Isha'mael did. How did he do that if he couldn't see it?


Moreover, Ishamael's grand entrance speaks of a shadow descending and then resolving into the figure of Ba'alzamon, which is almost identical to this...

RJ identified the latter as traveling with the True Power, which means that Ishamael's grand entrance in the Stone of Tear was almost certainly the same thing.
Granted.

So, we can conclude that Ishamael began his confrontation with Rand while holding the True Power and the very first thing he did was try to rip out Rand's soul. This is enough to convince me that he was using the True Power to do so.
I'll grant the former point, but I am not 100% sold on the latter. We don't know what he was doing, nor how.

And furthermore, I'm all but convinced that he used the True Power to escape.
Wait, you just said:

I am still completely convinced that Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone of Tear.

Sweet--I'm convincing you slowly without even arguing. I must be pretty good!

Ishamael did not pass though a gateway when he fled into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, he vanished. Therefore Rand did not see a gateway and when he reflects on those events two books later, he is clearly remembering them incorrectly. This makes him an unreliable narrator and makes the quote about “a remnant of woven saidin” practically useless.Really? Why is it there, then? A mistake?

However, suppose I grant that Ishamael deliberately used the One Power to flee so that Rand would be able to follow him.
Maybe.


So, since the shadow represents the True Power and it's with him in that moment when he supposedly uses saidin to escape, would that not be proof enough that you can channel the True Power and the One Power at the same time?
I didn't know that's what you were arguing, but sure. I don't see any reason why you couldn't.

But let me say again--the quote I provided doesn't prove 100% that Isha'mael used the One Power to Travel in the Stone. It does prove that Rand saw something that he was able to copy into a Gateway. There are three possibilities:

Isha'mael was using the One Power
Rand can read residues of the True Power
The folding Pattern sensation dredged up a Lews Therin memory.

newyorkersedai
01-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Suttree, the folding is the "science" of how Traveling works. It's not the physical appearance of the act itself. I think even the folding is only how one form of TP achieves Travelling.

However, since it's TP channeling, it appears the same to the observer whether it's a man or woman who does it: a vertical line appears in the air, rotates/widens, and forms a door/portal/entry. RJ said that OP Traveling looks totally different, and noted in an interview that he demonstrated that in the opening of book 1.

Seeker's points are about Rand's PoV description of what he witnessed, hence him seeing shimmering - or not seeing a Traveling doorway - are perfectly appropriate.

Terez
01-18-2012, 04:35 PM
Please provide a quote showing that people simply vanish when they use the True Power. There are only a handful of times we see Isha'mael/Moridin travel, and almost none that aren't from his POV. I can't think off the top of my head when we've seen a TP exit from someone else's POV.I'll handle this one.
TITLE - The Eye of the World
PROLOGUE - Dragonmount

Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste. Not so tall as Lews Therin, he was clothed all in black, save for the snow-white lace at his throat and the silverwork on the turned-down tops of his thigh-high boots. He stepped carefully, handling his cloak fastidiously to avoid brushing the dead. The floor trembled with aftershocks, but his attention was fixed on the man staring into the mirror and laughing....

...On the island, the air shimmered and coalesced. The black-clad man stood staring at the fiery mountain rising out of the plain. His face twisted in rage and contempt. "You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time."

Then he was gone, and the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting.INTERVIEW:2001Thus Spake the Creator (http://www.oocities.org/area51/stargate/8513/creator.htm)


QUESTION (THE ONE POWER, THE TRUE POWER, AND CHANNELING) (http://www.oocities.org/area51/stargate/8513/creator-op-tp.htm)
[Someone was nitpicking about the Eye of the World prologue, when Ishamael suddenly pops in. It was a ripple or a shimmer or something of the sort, not a ‘gateway’. So, this guys asks what was up with that? Creative license? Had not established the magic of the realm yet?]


ROBERT JORDAN
What do you think?

FAN RESPONSE
[The guy said True Power travel]

ROBERT JORDAN
Yes. [Can’t give you specifics of response, but he did say that it (True Power) was the reason for the difference in Traveling.]

INTERVIEW:Sep 20th, 1999
Brisbane Signing Report - Joel Gilmore (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/8b9e9028447101d6)

ROBERT JORDAN
The shimmering thing with Ishamael in the prologue of The Eye of the World was because of a True Power gateway!

INTERVIEW:Sep 20th, 1999
Brisbane Signing Report - Willum (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/08ee5cb9cf032487)

ROBERT JORDAN
RJ confirmed that Ishamael's strange gateway at the start of The Eye of the World was due to his use of the True Power.

INTERVIEW:Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5937)


QUESTION
What about the thread of the life in case of the Forsaken? Are they part of the Pattern or they are outside? Is it broken in the case of the Forsaken?


ROBERT JORDAN
No. They’re part of the Wheel, except for the fellows who’ve been balefired, who are now gone: no rebirth [resurrection]; they’re out. The Dark One is outside of the Pattern, as the Creator is outside of the Pattern, but everything human is inside of the Pattern. One of the things that the Forsaken hope to gain is immortality. And immortality would put them outside of the Pattern.

FOOTNOTE—TEREZ
RJ has said elsewhere (http://linuxmafia.com/~pam/POD_signings.html#nva1) that balefire is not the eternal death of the soul, and Brandon has confirmed it (and so RJ was merely saying that the balefired Forsaken could not be transmigrated into new bodies).

QUESTION
You’ve wrote somewhere that Moridin used the True Power and he stepped out of the Pattern or something like that.

ROBERT JORDAN
No, he’s made a hole in the Pattern as a way of Traveling which uses the True Power, which is a different thing. If you notice as far back as the Prologue of The Eye of the World, when Ishamael Traveled in to meet Lews Therin, who was mad, the description does not match the Traveling that we see later. It’s because at that point, Ishamael is using the True Power, which produces a different sort of effect for Traveling. It is a different method of Traveling than either men or women use with saidin and saidar.

QUESTION
The descriptions are quite similar when he arrived by Travel with saidin. You also say 'bore a hole through the Pattern', and for the True Power, I think in one instance, 'ripping a hole in the Pattern'. And in one other instance you wrote that he stepped back inside the Pattern.


ROBERT JORDAN
It’s similar. Similar, but it’s not the same thing. It’s why it produces that fading in and fading out effect.


QUESTION
But if a woman used the True Power she would use it the same way?


ROBERT JORDAN
Yes. It’s not separate. The True Power is not like saidin or saidar. The reason there are differences for men and women using the One Power is that one is usingsaidin, for men, and women are using saidar, which are not identical. But using the True Power, which flows from the Dark One, men and women are using exactly the same force, exactly the same source of Power.

INTERVIEW:Nov 2nd, 2010
TOM Signing Report - Matt Hatch (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3933)


MATT HATCH
Can Slayer dreamwalk in Tel'aran'rhiod or only go there in the flesh?


BRANDON SANDERSON
Slayer cannot dreamwalk (100% sure).

MATT HATCH
Did Slayer's employer in Winters' Heart use the True Power to weave a gateway?

BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO—I need to look it up, but you can tell True Power gateways if you know what to look for, wouldn't you agree Matt?

MATT HATCH
Yes.

Grig
01-18-2012, 06:00 PM
It's always a joy when Terez is thorough. I will, however, note that the weave to go into TAR in the flesh is described in LoC when Egwene does it without there being any sort of "doorway" as such. A person stepping through it would "simply vanish" to anyone still in the waking world's eyes, no "gateway" or "doorway" or anything of the sort involved.

Can the True Power be used to enter TAR? Would it have the same shimmery disappeary look as TP travelling (OP travel/skimming gateways look nothing like OP "sameness to enter TAR" weaves, so why should the TP ones be identical)? Unfortunately, we don't have that same trove of quotable interviews. Although I do still think that tDR scene suffers from some early-bookism, as Traveling and its variants weren't quite sorted out yet. It's likely that Ishamael was intended to only be using the TP, since all knowledgeable parties thought he used it exclusively (hence the fireeyes, and the saa so quickly after becoming Moridin).

Crispin's Crispian
01-18-2012, 06:14 PM
I'll handle this one.

Thanks, Terez.

I know about all of those. With the exception of the end of "Dragonmount," none of those address Seeker's "vanishing" scenario as the hallmark of True Power Travel. The only effect we see is the shimmer/ripple effect that happens upon arrival.

RJ mentioned the "fading in" and "fading out," but not "vanishing." Isha'mael certainly didn't fade out, he just disappeared.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 06:27 PM
As others pointed out, Egwene's TAR entry weave also caused a shimmer in the air, but there was no visible Gateway. I guess, to an observer not in the know, it would look like she "disappeared" when she went into it?

newyorkersedai
01-18-2012, 07:36 PM
dangit, terez! Always stealing my thunder with your massive quote database and careful, incisive thought! Grumble, grumble

Weird Harold
01-19-2012, 06:33 AM
It's always a joy when Terez is thorough. I will, however, note that the weave to go into TAR in the flesh is described in LoC when Egwene does it without there being any sort of "doorway" as such. A person stepping through it would "simply vanish" to anyone still in the waking world's eyes, no "gateway" or "doorway" or anything of the sort involved.

Traveling to T'A'R doesn't produce a visible gateway because the view through the gateway is identical to the view without the gateway. It's like a perfectly clean sliding glass door where you can't tell if the door is open or closed.

Zombie Sammael
01-19-2012, 07:39 AM
Traveling to T'A'R doesn't produce a visible gateway because the view through the gateway is identical to the view without the gateway. It's like a perfectly clean sliding glass door where you can't tell if the door is open or closed.

Something very like that happened to my Dad once.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2012, 08:03 AM
Something very like that happened to my Dad once.
Did he step into TAR, or did he fail to open the doors?

Zombie Sammael
01-19-2012, 08:05 AM
Did he step into TAR, or did he fail to open the doors?

He was certainly in the world of dreams after he failed to open the doors. Toughened glass.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2012, 08:11 AM
He was certainly in the world of dreams after he failed to open the doors. Toughened glass.
Maybe that's what happened to Egwene too, and all the books since LOC have been nothing more than her dreams while the Wise Ones try to wake her up, so that they can make her jump up and down in order to asses her health.

Seeker
01-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Thanks, Terez.

I know about all of those. With the exception of the end of "Dragonmount," none of those address Seeker's "vanishing" scenario as the hallmark of True Power Travel. The only effect we see is the shimmer/ripple effect that happens upon arrival.

RJ mentioned the "fading in" and "fading out," but not "vanishing." Isha'mael certainly didn't fade out, he just disappeared.

Well, from the pattern, we can deduce that when a person Travels with the True Power, they shimmer in upon arrival and wink out on exit.

At the very least, we can say that the two examples we have agree on those points.

Ishamael did not pass though a gateway when he fled into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, he vanished. Therefore Rand did not see a gateway and when he reflects on those events two books later, he is clearly remembering them incorrectly. This makes him an unreliable narrator and makes the quote about “a remnant of woven saidin” practically useless.

Really? Why is it there, then? A mistake?

That is exactly what I think it is. A mistake.

Or rather a ret-con (retroactive continuity for those of you don't know what that means). Basically, I think that RJ changed the rules of Traveling in the middle of the game. In the first few books, Traveling seemed to function similar to a transporter beam on Star Trek; the character simply materializes out of thin air.

At some point between The Dragon Reborn and The Shadow Rising, RJ decided that he wanted Traveling to be accomplished by passing through a gateway instead.

So, what happens is that the Dragon Reborn is written to conform to the old rules of Traveling and when Rand looks back on those events in The Fires of Heaven, he has to remember them as if the new system had always been in place. So, he saw Ishamael dematerialize and vanish but when he looks back on those events after the rule change, he recalls Ishamael passing through a gateway.

I think RJ was hoping that people wouldn't notice. And, to be fair to the man, Theoryland didn't exist when he wrote either of those books so he probably thought he could get away with it.

But that doesn't help us when we try to determine what went on in that scene.

My initial point was that RJ was never that big on logical consistency no matter what he likes to tell people in interviews and I think this proves my point quite nicely.

As to why I was arguing that Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone, it is because I don't think ripping Rand's soul out is something that can be done with the One Power. That kind of spiritual attack seems to be in the province of the Lord of the Grave if you ask me.

The reason I argued that one can use the True Power and the One Power at the same time is because I do not believe Moghidien could have pulled Birgitte out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod without assistance from the Dark One (via the True Power). People disagree with me since she was holding saidar at the time. I don't dispute that she was holding saidar but I see no reason to conclude that she could not also be holding the True Power.

Seeker
01-19-2012, 12:06 PM
As an aside, I often think that in the early books of this series, the True Power was an augmentation to the One Power, a sixth type of flow that only the servants of the Dark One could weave. "Dark Spirit," for lack of a better name.

So, when you were using the Dark One's special gifts, you were still holding the True Source and therefore could be combated on that level.

Grig
01-19-2012, 12:57 PM
As to why I was arguing that Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone, it is because I don't think ripping Rand's soul out is something that can be done with the One Power. That kind of spiritual attack seems to be in the province of the Lord of the Grave if you ask me.

Asmo tried to rip Rand's soul out ("unseen pincers tried to tear his mind from his body, ripped at his very soul"). Ishy was the only one given to using the TP. The Asmo incident might have even been when he was using half of the Choedan Kal (I don't recall for certain) which would definitely indicate saidin and not TP. Incidentally, why would you reserve "spiritual attack" for the Dark One? Spirit is one-fifth of the OP.

In the first few books, Traveling seemed to function similar to a transporter beam on Star Trek; the character simply materializes out of thin air.

This isn't necessarily supported. Otherwise, no need for Rand's "Stairway to Heaven^WIshahael's lair".

Seeker
01-19-2012, 01:27 PM
This isn't necessarily supported. Otherwise, no need for Rand's "Stairway to Heaven^WIshahael's lair".

That was old-school skimming. You may notice that Rand doesn't pass through doorways, he "steps" into a void where steps rise up to infinity.

So, to an outside observer, he would probably just wink out.

Crispin's Crispian
01-19-2012, 01:58 PM
Well, from the pattern, we can deduce that when a person Travels with the True Power, they shimmer in upon arrival and wink out on exit.

At the very least, we can say that the two examples we have agree on those points.Well hold on there, son. What's your second example? We have one at the end of "Dragonmount," yes. But if you're using the very scene about which we're arguing as your second example, that's a little circular.

]
That is exactly what I think it is. A mistake.

Or rather a ret-con (retroactive continuity for those of you don't know what that means). Basically, I think that RJ changed the rules of Traveling in the middle of the game. In the first few books, Traveling seemed to function similar to a transporter beam on Star Trek; the character simply materializes out of thin air.

At some point between The Dragon Reborn and The Shadow Rising, RJ decided that he wanted Traveling to be accomplished by passing through a gateway instead.

So, what happens is that the Dragon Reborn is written to conform to the old rules of Traveling and when Rand looks back on those events in The Fires of Heaven, he has to remember them as if the new system had always been in place. So, he saw Ishamael dematerialize and vanish but when he looks back on those events after the rule change, he recalls Ishamael passing through a gateway.

I think RJ was hoping that people wouldn't notice. And, to be fair to the man, Theoryland didn't exist when he wrote either of those books so he probably thought he could get away with it.LOL... I like that last part.

But I think you're wrong about a ret-con. I might agree if Rand hadn't sensed a "folding" of reality. Now that the point has been raised about Gateways into Tel'aran'rhiod, though, I think that's more likely.

I'm not 100% sold, though, just because I don't have a good motive for Isha'mael to use the One Power unless he was trying to get Rand to follow him. Given the nature of his flight, I just don't see a larger motive there.

But then, if it was the True Power, and FoH wasn't a ret-con...it means Rand has some truly special Talent.

As an aside, I often think that in the early books of this series, the True Power was an augmentation to the One Power, a sixth type of flow that only the servants of the Dark One could weave. "Dark Spirit," for lack of a better name.

So, when you were using the Dark One's special gifts, you were still holding the True Source and therefore could be combated on that level.

I kind like this point. And indeed, it might still be the case for the average channeler. It's just that from Day One (till just now) Isha'mael has been the sole user of it, and he loves it.

suttree
01-19-2012, 09:10 PM
Suttree, the folding is the "science" of how Traveling works. It's not the physical appearance of the act itself. I think even the folding is only how one form of TP achieves Travelling.


I understand that's not what it looks like. You missed earlier in the thread we were discussing when Rand "sensed"(not saw) a folding. If Seeker's claim was correct he would have "sensed" a ripping as that is what the TP does. Since it was a "folding" he sensed we can infer it was the OP.

newyorkersedai
01-20-2012, 03:26 AM
I understand that's not what it looks like. You missed earlier in the thread we were discussing when Rand "sensed"(not saw) a folding. If Seeker's claim was correct he would have "sensed" a ripping as that is what the TP does. Since it was a "folding" he sensed we can infer it was the OP.
Sorry!