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Cortar
01-12-2012, 03:10 AM
I may just be a bad searcher but I couldn't find anything related to this but here it goes:

How strong are the Choeden Kal exactly? Do we have any clue as to how much stronger they are than Callandor or the fluted rod?

Furthermore, does the size of the sa'angreal matter? I would have to assume so because of the size of the Kals but then why is the wand so small (its comparable to the angreal we know about).

Last one, is there a definition of the difference between angreal and sa'angreal? Or are these terms just used on weak power sources and strong power sources?

Zombie Sammael
01-12-2012, 04:15 AM
I may just be a bad searcher but I couldn't find anything related to this but here it goes:

How strong are the Choeden Kal exactly? Do we have any clue as to how much stronger they are than Callandor or the fluted rod?

Furthermore, does the size of the sa'angreal matter? I would have to assume so because of the size of the Kals but then why is the wand so small (its comparable to the angreal we know about).

Last one, is there a definition of the difference between angreal and sa'angreal? Or are these terms just used on weak power sources and strong power sources?

The Choedan Kal are the strongest sa'angreal ever made. I have no idea how much stronger this makes them than Callandor, but Rand thinks in TGS that he can do what he needs to with Callandor and doesn't require the CK, so they are not massively stronger.

I don't think size actually has anything to do with it; as you noted, the fluted wand is regular size, and Callandor is only the size of a regular sword. I think the reason the CK are so huge is to prevent anyone from stealing them - the access keys make them useless to anyone who doesn't have the access key ter'angreal.

As far as I know, there is no hard and fast line where an angreal becomes a sa'angreal that we are presently aware of. I would speculate that one actually does, and it's part of the construction process (I believe angreal and sa'angreal have to be manufactured by a linked circle).

Oneirist
01-12-2012, 12:30 PM
Depends on how you'd define "massively." When referring to Callandor, Siuan says that a city could be leveled in one blow. When referring to the Choedan Kal, continents are said to be able to be destroyed in one blow, even the world.

Cortar
01-12-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't think size actually has anything to do with it; as you noted, the fluted wand is regular size, and Callandor is only the size of a regular sword. I think the reason the CK are so huge is to prevent anyone from stealing them - the access keys make them useless to anyone who doesn't have the access key ter'angreal.

I liked this idea until I really thought about it. If this were the case then people would just have to steal the access keys and it would be the same as if they stole the sa'angreal themselves.


As far as I know, there is no hard and fast line where an angreal becomes a sa'angreal that we are presently aware of. I would speculate that one actually does, and it's part of the construction process (I believe angreal and sa'angreal have to be manufactured by a linked circle).

On that note, is there any differences between sa'angreal and angreal OTHER than the power difference?

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2012, 03:22 AM
I liked this idea until I really thought about it. If this were the case then people would just have to steal the access keys and it would be the same as if they stole the sa'angreal themselves.

Indeed, and that's exactly what they tried to do. Hiding the access keys was obviously a priority for the AS in the AOL:

Just as the paired sa’angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter’angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa’angreal (apparently because of a danger of “uncontrolled resonances during the final stages,” whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter’angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa’angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter’angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

fionwe1987
01-13-2012, 07:01 AM
I think size does make a difference, since I fail to see the reason for an unusable 50 foot high statue sa'angreal otherwise. I think when extremely great strength sa'angreal are made, there is no way to buffer them (hence Callandor's flaw and the need for access keys with the Choedan Kal), and they also need to be quite big. I think the strength difference between the CK and Callandor is immense. No one ever said Callandor can come close to unmaking creation. As a point of comparison, Rand said he had the strength of a hundred men when he used Callandor, whereas Egwene said that even if all the women of the Tower used the Power together, they wouldn't come close to matching the strength of the CK. Which implies a power difference of at least one order of magnitude.

One possible difference between angreal and sa'angreal may be that while angreal multiply your strength, sa'angreal may just allow you to access a set strength that is well beyond your ability. Basically, it may be that Nynaeve and Egwene would both magnify their power to the same amount using the fluted rod.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 07:18 AM
One possible difference between angreal and sa'angreal may be that while angreal multiply your strength, sa'angreal may just allow you to access a set strength that is well beyond your ability. Basically, it may be that Nynaeve and Egwene would both magnify their power to the same amount using the fluted rod.
That seems unlikely, as, when the rod is used by a circle led by Siuan to heal Mat (in TDR), Nynaeve remarks that she could channel almost half of what those AS with that rod could do:
Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa'angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa'angreal had no power of their own, of course – they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel – but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.
...
Just as softly, Nynaeve said, "If we stop them – if we could stop them – he'll die. I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power." She paused as if she had just heard her own words – that she could channel half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa'angreal – and her voice grew even fainter. "Light help me, I want to."

fionwe1987
01-13-2012, 08:05 AM
That seems unlikely, as, when the rod is used by a circle led by Siuan to heal Mat (in TDR), Nynaeve remarks that she could channel almost half of what those AS with that rod could do:
That isn't what she said at all. She says she couldn't handle half of that much of the power, then seems to realize the absurdity of that statement. For proof, there's Elayne's statement that with a fairly weak angreal, the amber turtle, she can handle twice as much as Nynaeve, and this is in tPoD, when Nynaeve was much stronger than in tDR. So the idea that Nynaeve could, in tDR, handle half as much as Siuan could draw through Vora's sa'angreal is laughable.

That said, I don't think the argument that sa'angreal provide an equal increase for all is all that strong. Its just a fairly possible one.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 08:55 AM
The Choedan Kal are the strongest sa'angreal ever made. I have no idea how much stronger this makes them than Callandor, but Rand thinks in TGS that he can do what he needs to with Callandor and doesn't require the CK, so they are not massively stronger.

More likely, whatever Rand has to do is not dependent on strength in the One Power to the degree where one needs enough saidin to melt a continent.

THAT'S how strong the CKs are.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 08:57 AM
I think size does make a difference, since I fail to see the reason for an unusable 50 foot high statue sa'angreal otherwise.

Agreed. Unless there's something we don't know about the process of making angreal or sa'angreal, it would be stupid and wholly irrational to make the most powerful sa'angreal gigantic statues when you could simply enchant (for lack of a better word) something smaller that could just as easily fit in your pocket.

Regarding strength in the One Power from angreal/sa'angreal:

Matt: Question—The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

Brandon: One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a – I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on...this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way angreal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using angreal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.

Also, as it is the case with many things in this series, the reality is more nuanced than we otherwise might think. There are other considerations to be kept in mind rather than simply raw Power usage. Gender differences exist, meaning that women are less powerful in channeling overall but have greater dexterity in their weaving. Also, channelers have Talents which can throw off Power calculations. Consider:

Q: Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the Power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself.
RJ: Some people have shielding Talents.

edit 2: Also consider this quote:

RJ: "The Power was used in blending the metals (and other materials...) and altering the structure. There is no source of the Power in these weapons, nor do they draw on the Power like angreal...."

Maybe an interesting question is the mechanism for HOW a channeler is able to draw more of the Power through an angreal/sa'angreal. If sa/angreals "draw on the Power", then is channeling through one of them similar to forming a circle? Maybe that would help explain the power increase. Just idle speculation.

maacaroni
01-13-2012, 09:10 AM
It's not the size of the boat its the motion of the ocean?

Oh wait. Oh.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2012, 09:50 AM
If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 10:19 AM
If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.

I'm always hesitant to use the internal thoughts and opinions of characters as proof of something theoretical like this, but there are passages in the books and other RJ WoT writings which might convince you otherwise.

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances.

I don't have the books handy (I'm at work), but throw in Lanfear's comment to Rand about how they could challenge the Dark One, and maybe even the Creator, if they used the Chodean Kal in conjunction.

Compared to Siuan Sanche's comment to Nyneave that Callandor could "level a city with a blow", the magnitude of available Power seems quite significantly higher for the Chodean Kal than Callandor.

Of course, it's difficult to know since a lot of this is what a character believes to be true, and not necessarily what is actually the case.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 10:43 AM
If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.

Okay to illustrate my point, let's assign some arbitrary numbers. Just humor me, I'm not saying these numbers are legitimate, only that they could be treated as a valid interpretation.

this one my understanding is that [an angreal] is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case.

Okay, so an angreal is a reservoir of power.

So let's say that channelers fall on a scale of power from 1 to 25 with Rand at 25 and someone like Morgase all the way down at 1. Assume that a man at level 20 is roughly as powerful as a woman at level 20 and can do the same things for the most part.

We know that means that angreal are modifiers. They're reservoirs of power in their own right which means that whatever they offer gets added to the user's initial score.

So, let's say the Fat Little Man is a +3. When Rand uses it, he goes from a 25 to a 28.

If we suppose that Logain has natural score of 23 (close to Rand but not quite there), then when he uses the Fat Little Man, he goes up to a 26.

Okay, so let's list some angreal for men and arbitrarily assign them numbers. The WOT wiki only lists one known angreal for men (the Fat Little Man), so I'm going to include female angreal just for a sense of scale. The same concept applies. Greandel's golden ring angreal is a +4. When she uses it, she gets 4 points added to her score.

Bear in mind, these numbers are right out of my head. I am not saying these are the actual figures RJ kept in his notes.

*****************
Moiraine's angreal (the woman in flowing robes) is a + 5.

Aviendha's Amber Turtle is a +7

Verin's Lily Broach is a +2

Graendel's golden ring is a +4

Cadsuane's shrike is a +8

Nynaeve's bracelet is a +6

Moiraine's bracelet is a +14

The Fat Little Man is a +3

***********************

Now sa'angreal.

The Fluted wand is a +22.

Callandor is a +100.


So, far, Callandor stands out as being the most powerful sa'angreal on the scale. And if we assume that other male sa'angreal range from +20 to +30, then certainly Callandor is one of the most powerful ever made.


The Female Choeden Kal is a +1000.

The Male Choeden Kal is a +1000.

So, Callador as a +100 is still one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a man but the Choeden Kal is ten times more powerful anyway.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2012, 11:44 AM
I'm always hesitant to use the internal thoughts and opinions of characters as proof of something theoretical like this, but there are passages in the books and other RJ WoT writings which might convince you otherwise.



I don't have the books handy (I'm at work), but throw in Lanfear's comment to Rand about how they could challenge the Dark One, and maybe even the Creator, if they used the Chodean Kal in conjunction.

Compared to Siuan Sanche's comment to Nyneave that Callandor could "level a city with a blow", the magnitude of available Power seems quite significantly higher for the Chodean Kal than Callandor.

Of course, it's difficult to know since a lot of this is what a character believes to be true, and not necessarily what is actually the case.

Okay to illustrate my point, let's assign some arbitrary numbers. Just humor me, I'm not saying these numbers are legitimate, only that they could be treated as a valid interpretation.



Okay, so an angreal is a reservoir of power.

So let's say that channelers fall on a scale of power from 1 to 25 with Rand at 25 and someone like Morgase all the way down at 1. Assume that a man at level 20 is roughly as powerful as a woman at level 20 and can do the same things for the most part.

We know that means that angreal are modifiers. They're reservoirs of power in their own right which means that whatever they offer gets added to the user's initial score.

So, let's say the Fat Little Man is a +3. When Rand uses it, he goes from a 25 to a 28.

If we suppose that Logain has natural score of 23 (close to Rand but not quite there), then when he uses the Fat Little Man, he goes up to a 26.

Okay, so let's list some angreal for men and arbitrarily assign them numbers. The WOT wiki only lists one known angreal for men (the Fat Little Man), so I'm going to include female angreal just for a sense of scale. The same concept applies. Greandel's golden ring angreal is a +4. When she uses it, she gets 4 points added to her score.

Bear in mind, these numbers are right out of my head. I am not saying these are the actual figures RJ kept in his notes.

*****************
Moiraine's angreal (the woman in flowing robes) is a + 5.

Aviendha's Amber Turtle is a +7

Verin's Lily Broach is a +2

Graendel's golden ring is a +4

Cadsuane's shrike is a +8

Nynaeve's bracelet is a +6

Moiraine's bracelet is a +14

The Fat Little Man is a +3

***********************

Now sa'angreal.

The Fluted wand is a +22.

Callandor is a +100.


So, far, Callandor stands out as being the most powerful sa'angreal on the scale. And if we assume that other male sa'angreal range from +20 to +30, then certainly Callandor is one of the most powerful ever made.


The Female Choeden Kal is a +1000.

The Male Choeden Kal is a +1000.

So, Callador as a +100 is still one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a man but the Choeden Kal is ten times more powerful anyway.

Yes. How does that prove the Choedan Kal are stronger because they're bigger? Even at +100, Callandor is not significantly larger than any other angreal or sa'angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 11:47 AM
Yes. How does that prove the Choedan Kal are stronger because they're bigger? Even at +100, Callandor is not significantly larger than any other angreal or sa'angreal.
If it is a logarithmic scale, then it would quite a substantial difference.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2012, 12:11 PM
To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?

Seeker
01-13-2012, 12:19 PM
To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?

Rule of cool?

Since angreal seem to come in any shape, I would argue that there is no reason to make one in the shape of a giant statue except human vanity. Sort of a testament to our great achievement.

I wouldn't say that the Choeden Kal are more powerful because they are bigger but rather that they have to be that big in order to be as powerful as they are. The bigger the battery, the more juice it outputs, which is another reason why I think they're much much much more powerful than Callandor. But, if that seems overly simplistic, please remember that this is a book and the author probably didn't think of the One Power in terms of actual physics.

Rule of Cool. Big = Powerful.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 12:21 PM
If you have a have a sa'angreal in the shape of bagpipes, and you channel through it while playing it, would that improve the music?

confused at birth
01-13-2012, 12:22 PM
To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?

style over substance old boy.

Would you ask why drive a Vanquish when a Volvo will do?




it looks better so it is better

Oden
01-13-2012, 12:27 PM
What if the way they were produced required the creator of the sa'angreal to have an object and mirror the appearance of said object. The man and the woman might have been two of the Aiel present.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2012, 12:47 PM
Rule of cool?

Since angreal seem to come in any shape, I would argue that there is no reason to make one in the shape of a giant statue except human vanity. Sort of a testament to our great achievement.

I wouldn't say that the Choeden Kal are more powerful because they are bigger but rather that they have to be that big in order to be as powerful as they are. The bigger the battery, the more juice it outputs, which is another reason why I think they're much much much more powerful than Callandor. But, if that seems overly simplistic, please remember that this is a book and the author probably didn't think of the One Power in terms of actual physics.

Rule of Cool. Big = Powerful.

style over substance old boy.

Would you ask why drive a Vanquish when a Volvo will do?




it looks better so it is better

Okay, so, you're making a giant sa'angreal, the hugest and most powerful ever made, and you desperately, desperately need it in order to defeat the Dark One. The size matters, so you need the largest container you can get. Do you really think "rule of cool" or "style over substance" is going to come into that? You're just going to make the biggest damn OP battery you can.

confused at birth
01-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Do you really think "rule of cool" or "style over substance" is going to come into that?

Yes :cool:



And yes I think size matters if you cannot overwhelm someone with your skill if it is big enough you can still smack them round the head with it and beat them down the old fashioned way

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 01:01 PM
Yes. How does that prove the Choedan Kal are stronger because they're bigger? Even at +100, Callandor is not significantly larger than any other angreal or sa'angreal.

Unfortunately, I can't prove anything. I'm merely speculating based on what I know and can infer.

Here, let me quote myself. You might have missed this, and it's pertinent.

Agreed. Unless there's something we don't know about the process of making angreal or sa'angreal, it would be stupid and wholly irrational to make the most powerful sa'angreal gigantic statues when you could simply enchant (for lack of a better word) something smaller that could just as easily fit in your pocket.

I personally don't buy into the "rule of cool" line of thought. I'm not saying it's wrong, only that I'm not convinced.

Assuming that sa'angreal are made to be used, utility is dependent on strength (duh) and functionality. Part of that functionality is size. I'd much rather have a super-sa'angreal pebble in my pocket that I can tap into. I suppose that means it's easier to lose, but I don't see that as much of a rebuttal.

In general, I would assume there's a reason the Chodean Kal were as big as they are, and that their size is in some way relevant to their immense strength. Again, this is based on inference and is not meant to be construed as conclusive proof of anything.

confused at birth
01-13-2012, 01:10 PM
would assume there's a reason the Chodean Kal were as big as they are, and that their size is in some way relevant to their immense strength.

since I look at the world like an electrical circuit I figure the crystal part did the work like a capacitor or transformer the rest was like a heat sink to stop it exploding and the keys work like optical isolation to protect the user from getting fried by power spikes.

and the whole lot of them were ego driven morons who got what they deserved of course they tried to make them look good instead of just being functional

Crispin's Crispian
01-13-2012, 03:06 PM
What if the way they were produced required the creator of the sa'angreal to have an object and mirror the appearance of said object. The man and the woman might have been two of the Aiel present.

This seems by far to be the best explanation of why *angreal come in different shapes. It doesn't explain why we don't have 10 million ring *angreal hanging around, since those would be the most practical.

I see two related options, here. One is that you have to use an existing object, and maybe making a angreal out of a ring requires a very high quality and high value base ring.

The second option is that they are extremely hard to make, or require a normally prohibitive amount of resources. We know the Eye of the World required (caused) the death of the channelers. Maybe *angreal do the same thing.


In general, I would assume there's a reason the Chodean Kal were as big as they are, and that their size is in some way relevant to their immense strength. Again, this is based on inference and is not meant to be construed as conclusive proof of anything.

I don't think you can use the relative sizes of Callandor and the Choedan Kal as a hard and fast rule. It's possible that there are diminishing returns of power as you use a larger object. They made them as big as they possibly could relative to the power they were hoping to get.

It's also possible (as I hinted above) that certain materials provide a better substrate, if you will. Callandor is made from the best of the best material, so it's One Power efficiency is very high. But maybe there wasn't much of that around, so it was totally impractical to make the Choedan Kal from it so they had to use a poorer material.

More likely, whatever Rand has to do is not dependent on strength in the One Power to the degree where one needs enough saidin to melt a continent.

THAT'S how strong the CKs are.

This was absolutely my impression, too. It's a matter of practicality rather than raw power. And maybe some metaphysical prophecy type stuff thrown in. :)

Tomp
01-13-2012, 04:13 PM
I think there's an aspect of size that play in the whole thing, one important aspect is that it probably was different people that made the angreals and sa'angreal. This may be of importance if their ability to create angreals are different.
For instance a very talented angreal-maker could probably create an angreal that a less talented maker would need a bigger object to equal. When it comes to sa'angreal I've always thought that it takes more than one person to create them.

fdsaf3
01-13-2012, 04:20 PM
I don't think you can use the relative sizes of Callandor and the Choedan Kal as a hard and fast rule. It's possible that there are diminishing returns of power as you use a larger object. They made them as big as they possibly could relative to the power they were hoping to get.

Not hard and fast, no. I just think that there would have to be some correlation between size and strength, otherwise making such huge sa'angreal wouldn't make sense.

It's also possible (as I hinted above) that certain materials provide a better substrate, if you will. Callandor is made from the best of the best material, so it's One Power efficiency is very high. But maybe there wasn't much of that around, so it was totally impractical to make the Choedan Kal from it so they had to use a poorer material.

This makes a lot of sense to me too.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2012, 04:33 PM
It could also be that making a sa'angreal requires a lot of work, much of which can be done at the same time. In that case, you would have basically two options:
1. Make the sa'angreal small, which takes a lot of time (as only few people can work on it at once) but makes it easy to then handle and transport the thing.
2. Make it big, so that a lot of people (teams) can work on it simultaneously and it can be finished sooner, but this makes it unwieldy.

In most cases, option 1 would be better, but with the CK, option 2 was chosen, with the access keys as a workaround for the problem of having to lug 100 foot statues around.

Tomp
01-13-2012, 04:37 PM
Just to clarify my post from earlier.

I think sa'angreal is an angreal that's been created by a group of AS, while an angreal has been created by one person.

I have nothing, but my gut, to back this up.

Seeker
01-13-2012, 07:08 PM
Okay, so, you're making a giant sa'angreal, the hugest and most powerful ever made, and you desperately, desperately need it in order to defeat the Dark One. The size matters, so you need the largest container you can get. Do you really think "rule of cool" or "style over substance" is going to come into that? You're just going to make the biggest damn OP battery you can.

Rule of Cool is a trope. It means the author has chosen to make the characters do something that people wouldn't do in real life because it works better for the narrative.

I don't think we were ever meant to question the efficiency of making two giant statues when time was of the essence.

Lupusdeusest
01-13-2012, 09:12 PM
I've always thought the shape thing was indicative of the maker's purpose - Callandor as a weapon, the CK as a world-rebuilder (they are holding the globe with care!), the fat little man with a sword as both weapon and general strengthener, the lady in hair a defensive angreal, same for the turtle. The rings-and-bracelet one I have no explanation for (linking?).
Ultimately, I don't think any angreal or s'a has been proven to have more oomph in one situation or another, but I would make a bowl differently for holding fruit than for holding stew, and it's still likely hold the same amount, it'd just be decorated for fruit.

Seeker
01-14-2012, 01:20 AM
I personally don't buy into the "rule of cool" line of thought. I'm not saying it's wrong, only that I'm not convinced.

Assuming that sa'angreal are made to be used, utility is dependent on strength (duh) and functionality. Part of that functionality is size. I'd much rather have a super-sa'angreal pebble in my pocket that I can tap into. I suppose that means it's easier to lose, but I don't see that as much of a rebuttal.

In general, I would assume there's a reason the Chodean Kal were as big as they are, and that their size is in some way relevant to their immense strength. Again, this is based on inference and is not meant to be construed as conclusive proof of anything.

Yes, but the question was, "If size matters, why bother carving the Choeden Kal into statues? Why not just make two really big blocks? Like a building-sized slab of stone.

Well, I think we can infer that shape has no bearing on the functionality of angreal since they all come in different shapes and yet they all do the same thing. (And, so far as we know, no one shape does the job better than any other).

So, if shape is irrelevant - and I'm almost certain that it is - why bother to carve the Choeden Kal into two big statues when two huge slabs of stone will do?

The answer is human vanity (Something AOLers had in spades) and, more to the point, rule of cool. RJ did it because two huge statues resonates with the audience in ways that two slabs of rock would not. There is no practical, in-story reason. The author did it because it had a nice dramatic effect.

And that's okay.

RJ could stand to use the rule of cool a little more often in my opinion.

Cortar
01-14-2012, 04:21 AM
Whoever made this its own thread and added that title.... Thank you for the lolz

Weird Harold
01-14-2012, 06:34 AM
Well, I think we can infer that shape has no bearing on the functionality of angreal since they all come in different shapes and yet they all do the same thing. (And, so far as we know, no one shape does the job better than any other).

Yet we have no example of any *'angreal (including TER'angreal) that doesn't habve some shape. Some are simple shapes, an ivory rod, a gold band, etc, but none are simply utilitarian.

My personal opinion is that size, shape, material and skill of the maker all affect the final functionality. No one factor is determinate as it is an interaction between the three physical components blended by the skill of the
maker.

Zombie Sammael
01-14-2012, 06:54 AM
It could be that it's necessary to convert an existing object into a sa'angreal (a la Cuendillar conversion) rather than just make it from scratch. If that were the case, it would explain the lack of purpose-built sa'angreal in plain shapes. If volume were also a contributing factor, that would explain the size of the Choedan Kal as well as their shape; the largest objects available.

Of course, none of that changes the fact that we have absolutely no information as to how sa'angreal is made, and until we do, any speculation on why they are the size and shapes they are is just that: speculation.

Terez
01-14-2012, 09:51 AM
Whoever made this its own thread and added that title.... Thank you for the lolzAny time. :)