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maleshub
01-13-2012, 09:09 PM
A discussion on Mangin and his hanging ignited this bothersome concept in my head.

A clan chief who supported Rand from the get-go, Mangin, broke Rand's law and killed a man. He paid his toh. In a black-white interpretation, Mangin broke a law and was punished ... all fair! And Rand pretty much didn't have a choice; since Mangin admitted breaking the law.

Looking at Rand, especially when darkness all but consumed him. It is ironic that his most questionable act is his attempt to kill Graendal!

And that argument will have to start with Rahvin who used a compulsion (although weaker than Graeny's) on Morgase. And the former queen's troubles are not because of compulsion; but because of her broken pride and desperate actions (e.g. sleeping with Valda!).

After Rand balefired Rahvin, the compulsion was rendered useless because the object of obedience and worship ceased to exist.

But with Graendal, Rand went berserk. He destroyed the whole manner house. Granted that he unwittingly killed another Foresaken; but that cannot count for his since it was an accident and betrayal by Graendal.

The reasoning, whether flawed or not, is that balefiring Graendal herself would have rendered her compulsion useless. The servants and toys would then be sifted to see who were Darkfriends and who were innocents.

Rand's attempts in Ebou Dor and against Tam, while fully understanding the circumstances, make Mangin's crime a footnote. And his threatened execution of Cadsuane was just wacko. His thinking of mass-killing an entire Seanchan palace or even their capital city just shows how easy it became for him to kill - enemies and collateral damage if you will.

I'm glad we have him back though.

Terez
01-13-2012, 09:41 PM
A discussion on Mangin and his hanging ignited this bothersome concept in my head.

A clan chief who supported Rand from the get-go, Mangin, broke Rand's law and killed a man.Mangin was not a clan chief, or even a sept chief.

The reasoning, whether flawed or not, is that balefiring Graendal herself would have rendered her compulsion useless. The servants and toys would then be sifted to see who were Darkfriends and who were innocents.Graendal's Compulsion generally destroys the brain. Rand noted that himself when he did the balefiring:

"What you have done is an abomination, Rand al'Thor," Nynaeve said as soon as the gateway was closed. "There looked to have been dozens, maybe hundreds, of people living in that palace!"

"Each one made into an idiot by Graendal's Compulsion," Rand replied. "She never lets anyone close to her without destroying their mind first. The boy she sent to work the jail barely knew a fraction of the torture most of her pets receive. She leaves them without ability to think or act—all they can do is kneel and adore her, perhaps run errands at her command. I did them a favor."And she destroyed their brains long before the window covered by Rand's balefire which, even at that strength, was given a max of a week (which is stretching it) by Brandon.

Lupusdeusest
01-14-2012, 01:55 AM
Be careful calling it "sleeping with Valda". It's a very sensitive issue.

maleshub
01-14-2012, 03:45 AM
Be careful calling it "sleeping with Valda". It's a very sensitive issue.

Lol .... What would I call it then?

@ Terez:

Thanks for the clarification regarding Mangin. And thanks for the info regarding the "back track" window of balefire.

Zombie Sammael
01-14-2012, 05:04 AM
Lol .... What would I call it then?

Rape.

Daekyras
01-16-2012, 06:30 AM
Rape.

Correct.

maleshub
01-16-2012, 06:35 PM
Rape.

Correct.

My vague recollection is that Morgase pondered over her political relationships during her time in Amador. And her feeling after Valda was "dirty," not hurt or pained.

Granted, Valda took advantage of the situation. And a politically motivated relationship from a point of weakness is closer to rape than a relationship.

fionwe1987
01-16-2012, 06:50 PM
My vague recollection is that Morgase pondered over her political relationships during her time in Amador. And her feeling after Valda was "dirty," not hurt or pained.

Granted, Valda took advantage of the situation. And a politically motivated relationship from a point of weakness is closer to rape than a relationship.
An old argument is reborn...

Morghase was tortured by Asunawa before she accepted Valda's advances, and even if physical abuse isn't involved doesn't mean it isn't rape.

Terez
01-16-2012, 07:08 PM
If you are coerced into having sex with someone that you otherwise would never have considered having sex with, then it's rape. Plain and simple. Not 'close to rape'.

Davian93
01-16-2012, 07:14 PM
If you are coerced into having sex with someone that you otherwise would never have considered having sex with, then it's rape. Plain and simple. Not 'close to rape'.

Exactly...not all rapes are violent like how the OP is imagining. Morgase was raped by Valda, plain and simple.

maleshub
01-16-2012, 07:45 PM
I hope this doesn't portray me as a rapist sympathizer! Because I would call rape for its name.

Morgase married Taringail Damodred for political reasons. Did he coerce her into it?

That is how I understood the Valda situation, Morgase acting desperate. And I really hope that my understanding is wrong.

Does anyone have a quote that can help me along?

Davian93
01-16-2012, 08:17 PM
I hope this doesn't portray me as a rapist sympathizer! Because I would call rape for its name.

Morgase married Taringail Damodred for political reasons. Did he coerce her into it?

That is how I understood the Valda situation, Morgase acting desperate. And I really hope that my understanding is wrong.

Does anyone have a quote that can help me along?

Here's the relevant quote:


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 26 - The Irrevocable Words
She had always thought she was brave enough to do whatever needed doing, to face whatever came; she had always believed she could pick herself up and continue to fight. In one endless hour, without leaving more than a few bruises that were already fading, Rhadam Asunawa had begun teaching her differently. Eamon Valda had completed her education with one question. The bruise her answer had left on her heart had not faded. She should have gone back to Asunawa herself and told him to do his worst. She should have....

Basically, she got tortured for an hour until her choice was have sex with Valda for protection from physical torture or continue getting tortured. Immediately afterwards, she thinks she should have just gotten tortured as Valda's "protection" was far too costly.

Rape is rape is rape.

Here is another quote on it from the books:


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 26 - The Irrevocable Words
Cowardice. Outrage welled up in Morgase, yet no words came. Her fingers knotted in the sheet. She did not think she could have decided in cold blood to lie with Valda, but had she, she could have lived with it. She thought she could. Another matter entirely to say yes because she feared facing Asunawa's knotted cords and needles again, feared worse that he would have gotten to eventually. However she had screamed under Asunawa's ministrations, Valda was the one who had showed her the true borders of her courage, so far short of where she had believed. Valda's touch, his bed, could be forgotten, with time, but she would never be able to wash the shame of that "yes" from her lips.

maleshub
01-16-2012, 08:51 PM
Thanks for clearing my confusion. My previous posts were all wrong and based on vague memory of the word yes. But I am glad I was wrong :)

Cortar
01-16-2012, 11:13 PM
Here's the relevant quote:



Basically, she got tortured for an hour until her choice was have sex with Valda for protection from physical torture or continue getting tortured. Immediately afterwards, she thinks she should have just gotten tortured as Valda's "protection" was far too costly.


Wait, I could have sworn that "answer" was about Whitecloaks gaining power and influence in Andor. She answered "yes" to allow them in to regain her throne[/QUOTE]

Cortar
01-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Nevermind I was remembering wrong