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Fin
01-18-2012, 04:07 PM
I tried searching for this but if its been discussed i couldnt bring it up. in the trial by light between galad and valda words are used that hints to galad being able to channel. i dont have the book in front of me but something about noticing things finely or whatnot. can he channel and why is it showing up so late i heard that men show later than women. or is it some force bringing it out ie for the last battle etc

Terez
01-18-2012, 04:08 PM
The same words are used to hint that Lan could channel. Except that's not how they were meant at all. It's the void, which is necessary for channeling, but not strictly related.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2012, 04:04 AM
It is a matter of concentrating without getting distracted by focusing on concentrating. Which, I'll admit, may not clarify things too much.

Perhaps a well known real world variation will help: when people are angry, they are often given the advice "first count to ten". That's not because counting to ten will actually resolve whatever it is that makes you angry. Nor is it because numbers are particularly well suited to dealing with jerks who step on your toes. It is because it distracts you a bit, which gives you time to think, and, perhaps just as importantly, makes it necessary for your mind to reorganise things so that you can once again focus on what actually matters. After which the normal reaction is just to punch the jerk in the face anyway, of course, but the fact that humans can't make this idea work properly is not a slight on the approach itself.

In Randland, instead of counting to ten, people (warriors, especially) mentally feed all their emotions and other distractions into an imaginary flame, so that there's nothing left but that which they have to deal with.

Of course, if I'm right, then the void would not be actually necessary for channeling. The same thing could be achieved in another way too. But, because all (male) channelers are trained with the void, they need it in order to be effective.

Dajoran
01-19-2012, 04:07 AM
I counted to 10 once... and balefired my Lunch...

It's too risky don't do it unless you are sure you can't Channel...

Zombie Sammael
01-19-2012, 04:22 AM
I counted to 10 once... and balefired my Lunch...

It's too risky don't do it unless you are sure you can't Channel...

I have red hair and grey eyes, does that mean I should stay away from any miniature replicas of large, globe-hefting statues? :D

Dajoran
01-19-2012, 04:28 AM
I have red hair and grey eyes, does that mean I should stay away from any miniature replicas of large, globe-hefting statues? :D

I think you'll be safe - as long as you have a dormant volcano nearby to do some soul searching... and three ladies on the go... and have recently escaped a bad S&M scenario with a 3000+ year old healer...

Zombie Sammael
01-19-2012, 04:28 AM
I think you'll be safe - as long as you have a dormant volcano nearby to do some soul searching... and three ladies on the go... and have recently escaped a bad S&M scenario with a 3000+ year old healer...

Looks like we're all right then.

Dajoran
01-19-2012, 04:34 AM
Looks like we're all right then.

I wanna live where this guy lives...

greatwolf
01-21-2012, 04:44 PM
My apologies for this but I hope noone will mind too much if I ask this here : Why is the pattern putting Galad and Berelain together? I ask because of possible political ramifications.

Berelain is a descendant of Hawkwing. By rights, she may have as strong a claim to the throne as Tuon, even if she can't enforce her claim. But if she marries Galad, who has claim to both the throne of andor and Cairhien, she would have a stake in these two nations that Tuon would have to acknowledge one way or another.

If Tuon kills Berelain, it ends one problem brings up others such as loss of face and the possibility of Hawkwing's line becoming extinct if Tuon dies before she has any children.

If she doesn't kill the wench, she can't sit back and watch one of the blood (no family) being mocked because it would reflect on her. Badly! by right of birth, Berelain can be considered probably second to Tuon now in seanchan heirachy.

Attacking lands belonging to Berelain would be frowned on because it would no longer be seen as part of the war to reclaim lost lands.

But I'm going to far with this, I don't recall Tylee mentioning Berelain in her report. Thoughts?

Seeker
01-21-2012, 05:37 PM
My apologies for this but I hope noone will mind too much if I ask this here : Why is the pattern putting Galad and Berelain together? I ask because of possible political ramifications.

Berelain is a descendant of Hawkwing. By rights, she may have as strong a claim to the throne as Tuon, even if she can't enforce her claim. But if she marries Galad, who has claim to both the throne of andor and Cairhien, she would have a stake in these two nations that Tuon would have to acknowledge one way or another.

If Tuon kills Berelain, it ends one problem brings up others such as loss of face and the possibility of Hawkwing's line becoming extinct if Tuon dies before she has any children.

If she doesn't kill the wench, she can't sit back and watch one of the blood (no family) being mocked because it would reflect on her. Badly! by right of birth, Berelain can be considered probably second to Tuon now in seanchan heirachy.

Attacking lands belonging to Berelain would be frowned on because it would no longer be seen as part of the war to reclaim lost lands.

But I'm going to far with this, I don't recall Tylee mentioning Berelain in her report. Thoughts?

A better question might be "Why was RJ foolish enough to allow the Pattern to have any influence on love stories?"

David Selig
01-21-2012, 07:12 PM
My apologies for this but I hope noone will mind too much if I ask this here : Why is the pattern putting Galad and Berelain together?
They are the hottest persons alive (Lanfear's old body is gone). Is that not a good enough reason? Think of their children. The Pattern wants to raise the beauty standards in Randland.

The Unreasoner
01-21-2012, 07:45 PM
I have red hair and grey eyes, does that mean I should stay away from any miniature replicas of large, globe-hefting statues? :D

fuck yes

Fin
01-21-2012, 07:47 PM
hawkwings blood mixes with the kin of the dragon reborn

maleshub
01-21-2012, 08:28 PM
Galad Damodred might end up Elayne's Steward in Cairhien. And so, Berelain's marriage would give Mayne access to the strongest nation bordering Tear; and thus might quench Tear's hunger to annex Mayne.

That was on the political front; but on a much less simple plane, Galad is Berelain's reward for being faithful to Rand and Perrin. Seeing beyond her "Perrin attempt," she has been one of the few people who have been genuinely loyal to Rand ..... like Rhuarc, Dobraine, Bashere, et. al.

Davian93
01-21-2012, 08:34 PM
Galad Damodred might end up Elayne's Steward in Cairhien. And so, Berelain's marriage would give Mayne access to the strongest nation bordering Tear; and thus might quench Tear's hunger to annex Mayne.

That was on the political front; but on a much less simple plane, Galad is Berelain's reward for being faithful to Rand and Perrin. Seeing beyond her "Perrin attempt," she has been one of the few people who have been genuinely loyal to Rand ..... like Rhuarc, Dobraine, Bashere, et. al.

Considering the stupid way Faile acted towards Berelain in the Stone, the "Perrin attempt" is exactly what she [Faile] deserved.

suttree
01-21-2012, 09:30 PM
hawkwings blood mixes with the kin of the dragon reborn

Except for that little fact that Berelain in all likelihood has not a drop of Hawkwing's blood in her. It was a scam that Mayene proposed and is not taken seriously outside of their borders.

Terez
01-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Um, no, it's not a scam. Her family is most likely descended from Hawkwing via the daughter that he sent to Shara.

Davian93
01-21-2012, 09:47 PM
Um, no, it's not a scam. Her family is most likely descended from Hawkwing via the daughter that he sent to Shara.

Exactly.

suttree
01-21-2012, 10:00 PM
Um, no, it's not a scam. Her family is most likely descended from Hawkwing via the daughter that he sent to Shara.

Shrug. Realized I read that most recently off of Wot Wiki. Yet another thing they have wrong?

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Tyrn_sur_Paendrag_Mashera

Edit: It used to also say the claim was not taken seriously outside of Mayene but I guess it has been edited...still it is odd Tyrn didn't make a claim for the empire if he was legit. The manner in which he showed up at least casts a hint of question on his true identity..

maleshub
01-21-2012, 10:23 PM
Considering the stupid way Faile acted towards Berelain in the Stone, the "Perrin attempt" is exactly what she [Faile] deserved.

Agreed that Faile deserved Berelain; but in the end, Perrin's flaw was Faile; and she ended up winning. And Faile, after her rescue, acknowledged Berelain's contributions to her rescue so much that she threatened her.

One of the grinding themes of WoT is that the savior/rescuer always gets upbraided. How that grates?

Seeker
01-21-2012, 10:27 PM
Will I lose my mod powers if I add the word "sucks" to the title of this thread?

Terez
01-22-2012, 12:09 AM
Shrug. Realized I read that most recently off of Wot Wiki. Yet another thing they have wrong?

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Tyrn_sur_Paendrag_Mashera

Edit: It used to also say the claim was not taken seriously outside of Mayene but I guess it has been edited...still it is odd Tyrn didn't make a claim for the empire if he was legit. The manner in which he showed up at least casts a hint of question on his true identity..Yeah, sometimes I think they just make stuff up. Where did they get the year 1004 from, and all that stuff about the council? But it's easy enough to see why he wouldn't make a claim, seeing as how Hawkwing's heirs were targets. So long as he made a claim only to Mayene, he had a good chance of being overlooked. He probably didn't have anything resembling an army.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 05:32 AM
My apologies for this but I hope noone will mind too much if I ask this here : Why is the pattern putting Galad and Berelain together? I ask because of possible political ramifications.

Berelain is a descendant of Hawkwing. By rights, she may have as strong a claim to the throne as Tuon, even if she can't enforce her claim. But if she marries Galad, who has claim to both the throne of andor and Cairhien, she would have a stake in these two nations that Tuon would have to acknowledge one way or another.

If Tuon kills Berelain, it ends one problem brings up others such as loss of face and the possibility of Hawkwing's line becoming extinct if Tuon dies before she has any children.

If she doesn't kill the wench, she can't sit back and watch one of the blood (no family) being mocked because it would reflect on her. Badly! by right of birth, Berelain can be considered probably second to Tuon now in seanchan heirachy.

Attacking lands belonging to Berelain would be frowned on because it would no longer be seen as part of the war to reclaim lost lands.

But I'm going to far with this, I don't recall Tylee mentioning Berelain in her report. Thoughts?

I'd say that might be exactly why the Pattern is putting Galad and Berelain together. I see Galad ultimately having some ruling stake in Cairhien, which it seems likely will end up merging to form a super-state with Andor. Galad's symbolism, as a Child of the Light, puts him perfectly in place to rule the nation whose sigil is a rising sun, especially after TG. If Tuon is unwilling or unable to make war against lands ruled or influenced by another of Hawkwing's line, that gives her an excuse not to invade "Toy's" homeland. She may demand Elayne step aside or relinquish some of her territory to a steward in order to limit the worldly power of an Aes Sedai. In any case, I think Berelain's Hawkwing heritage might be key to halting the Seanchan expansion, hence why she is pushed into a relationship with someone having ties to the throne of two nations and command of a small army.

greatwolf
01-25-2012, 03:04 AM
In any case, I think Berelain's Hawkwing heritage might be key to halting the Seanchan expansion, hence why she is pushed into a relationship with someone having ties to the throne of two nations and command of a small army.

as I said, that's if Tuon forgoes the option of killing her outright. And she could be the rallying point for those who are opposed to Tuon but who do not stand high enough to pose a problem. I suppose Mat could also be used in similar fashion given his ignorance of seanchan ways and politics.

And Tuon style seems very different from Berelain's. I don't know if they'll get on well together at all.

They are the hottest persons alive (Lanfear's old body is gone). Is that not a good enough reason? Think of their children. The Pattern wants to raise the beauty standards in Randland

Hottest? You meaning taking the shine of the empress and her randy man? Isn't that one more reason for Tuon to axe Berelain? If its too shaming, use a knife!

Dajoran
01-25-2012, 03:35 AM
Was the 'artist' who drew the picture of Galad for the CCG an ardent Buffy fan? Or is David Boreanaz considered the heart-throb of the Westlands (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100325000841/wot/images/e/eb/Galadedrid_Damodred.jpg).

final death
02-18-2012, 03:48 PM
I found it strange that a single person could be found universally attractive. Even barring strange fettishes people still have different views as what is attractive. As such i found it strange that there is 2 Universally attractive people in the world Lanfear and Galad. They always describe Galad as beautiful which makes me think he's a pretty boy. though perhaps it just is the usual wheel of time reversal of gender roles/ words to describe different genders. Most woman in the wheel of time are described as handsome and the supposed hot guys are called beautiful. I once joking asked my brother what a handsome woman is supposed to look like. He said nice skin, big eyes, and a really square jaw. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all so there shouldn't be such a thing as a universally super attractive person that everyone find attractive.

Zombie Sammael
02-18-2012, 04:20 PM
I found it strange that a single person could be found universally attractive. Even barring strange fettishes people still have different views as what is attractive. As such i found it strange that there is 2 Universally attractive people in the world Lanfear and Galad. They always describe Galad as beautiful which makes me think he's a pretty boy. though perhaps it just is the usual wheel of time reversal of gender roles/ words to describe different genders. Most woman in the wheel of time are described as handsome and the supposed hot guys are called beautiful. I once joking asked my brother what a handsome woman is supposed to look like. He said nice skin, big eyes, and a really square jaw. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all so there shouldn't be such a thing as a universally super attractive person that everyone find attractive.

Even with personal taste, we still have a general view of what we find conventionally attractive. I personally am more attracted to petite brunettes in spectacles, but I am still able to recognise that the conventional "standard" of beauty is a tall, leggy size zero blonde*. That may have a lot to do with the completely media-controlled society of much of the Western world, but this is probably also a case where RJ ignored the mechanics in favour of making them both "conventionally attractive" within his world; note that this still means we might not think them attractive at all in our world.

I'm fond of saying, in discussions of gender in WOT, that RJ tried to make an equal world and failed. I think this is a pretty good example of how; even within the world of WOT, women are given a lot more leeway of what it's "acceptable" for them to find attractive than men; or to put it another way, men can get away with more in their appearance. Note that Nynaeve's taste is clearly different from Elayne's which is different from Amys', and no-one has quite the same taste as Birgitte (yeah, okay, so there are at least three female characters with pretty much exactly the same taste in men). On the other hand, Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Galad all comment on how attractive Berelain is. With this in mind, it's difficult to see how Galad can tick literally everyone's boxes, and yet everyone seems to think he is the most drop-dead gorgeous man they've ever seen. As you rightly point out, it doesn't quite work, and I think that has to do with how much of our world is actually reflected in WOT.

*I make no judgements about whether either of these facts are good or bad in this post.

The Unreasoner
02-18-2012, 05:57 PM
I've always been fond of the idea that there are some objective ideals of beauty. But then I've always loved the idea of the transcendentals. I think the 'tall, leggy blonde' Zombie describes is more a caricature of Beauty than Beauty itself. But facial symmetry, clear skin, shiny hair, bright eyes, no unibrow, good posture, physically fit and flexible, an easy and genuine smile...these are all things most people would put under the beauty column.

Galad is a bigger surprise than Berelain, to me. I was taught that women's tastes varied more widely than men's (and even for a specific woman, over a period (no pun intended)). But RJ is a guy, maybe he didn't think of it.

Although there are some people who are just flat-out beautiful. For instance, Catherine Zeta Jones is a beautiful person. I'm not turned on by her, but my organ isn't exactly known for its meditations on aesthetics. My girlfriend dyed her hair green once, and I just lost it. I was wrong, her normal black hair is the more objectively beautiful, but humanity hasn't evolved to the point where we aren't fooled by the likes of Cameron Diaz and other caricatures of Beauty.

(for the record, I actually don't find Cameron Diaz to be much of a turn on either. But it could be her age).

Zombie Sammael
02-18-2012, 06:08 PM
I've always been fond of the idea that there are some objective ideals of beauty. But then I've always loved the idea of the transcendentals. I think the 'tall, leggy blonde' Zombie describes is more a caricature of Beauty than Beauty itself. But facial symmetry, clear skin, shiny hair, bright eyes, no unibrow, good posture, physically fit and flexible, an easy and genuine smile...these are all things most people would put under the beauty column.

Galad is a bigger surprise than Berelain, to me. I was taught that women's tastes varied more widely than men's (and even for a specific woman, over a period (no pun intended)). But RJ is a guy, maybe he didn't think of it.

Although there are some people who are just flat-out beautiful. For instance, Catherine Zeta Jones is a beautiful person. I'm not turned on by her, but my organ isn't exactly known for its meditations on aesthetics. My girlfriend dyed her hair green once, and I just lost it. I was wrong, her normal black hair is the more objectively beautiful, but humanity hasn't evolved to the point where we aren't fooled by the likes of Cameron Diaz and other caricatures of Beauty.

(for the record, I actually don't find Cameron Diaz to be much of a turn on either. But it could be her age).

At the risk of derailing this into a discussion about constructions of beauty, I question the idea that you were "wrong" about your GF's hair-colour versus an objective standard. Just because someone doesn't meet the checklist you laid out doesn't mean they're not beautiful, or that it's wrong to find them beautiful, especially when we're talking purely about sexual attraction. Both women and men I know have observed the phenomenon that the better they like someone as a person, the more attractive they find them (although this is one of those things women are more likely to admit to than men). A lot more goes into beauty than just a physical checklist, I think.

Tomp
02-18-2012, 06:09 PM
They are the hottest persons alive (Lanfear's old body is gone). Is that not a good enough reason? Think of their children. The Pattern wants to raise the beauty standards in Randland.

Maybe RJ wanted to make a point by having their kids be really ugly. ;)

mogi67
02-18-2012, 10:14 PM
Both women and men I know have observed the phenomenon that the better they like someone as a person, the more attractive they find them (although this is one of those things women are more likely to admit to than men). A lot more goes into beauty than just a physical checklist, I think.

I agree, I've experienced this as well.