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fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 07:16 PM
So, while discussing whether Rand was bonded by Moridin, I came across this curious quote from Elayne in WH, Lily in Winter:

How easy it was to say that! She had been sure she could not, once. Until she came to realize that she loved Aviendha as much as she did him, just in a different way. And Min, too; another sister, even if they had not adopted one another. She would stripe Alanna from top to bottom for touching him, given the chance, but Aviendha and Min were different. They were part of her. In a way, they were her, and she them.

And then, a few minutes later, we have the bonding, where:

Carefully she wove Spirit, a flow of over a hundred threads, every thread placed just so, and laid the weave on Aviendha sitting on the floor, then did the same to Min on the table's edge. In a way, they were not two separate weaves at all. They glowed with a precise similarity, and it seemed that looking at one, she saw the other as well. These were not the weaves used in the adoption ceremony, but they used the same principles. They included; what happened to one meshed in that weave, happened to all in it. As soon as the weaves were in place, she passed the lead of the circle of two to Aviendha. The weaves already made remained, and Aviendha immediately wove identical weaves around Elayne, and around Min again, blending that one until it was indistinguishable from Elayne's before passing control back. They did that very easily now, after a great deal of practice. Four weaves, or rather, three now, yet they all seemed the same weave....

...From each of them, she extended the weave in narrow lines toward Rand, twisting the three lines into one, changing it into the Warder bond. That, she laid on Rand as softly as if she were laying a blanket on a baby. The spiderweb of Spirit settled around him, settled into him. He did not even blink, but it was done. She let go of saidar. Done.


Now, what does this have to do with Callandor?

Unfortunately, that question just sent her to another worry. "Have you ever wondered why Callandor is so often called a 'fearful blade' or 'the blade of ruin' in the prophecies?"
"It's such a powerful sa'angreal" he said. "Maybe it's because of the destruction it can cause?"
"Maybe," she said.
"You think it's something else."
"There's a phrase," Min said, "in the Jendai Prophecy. I wish we knew more of them. Anyway, it says 'and the Blade will bind him by twain.' "
"Two women," Rand said. "I need to be in a circle with two women to control it."
She grimaced.
"What?" Rand said. "You might as well be out with it, Min. I need to know."
"There's another phrase, from The Karaethon Cycle. Anyway, I think that Callandor might be flawed beyond that. I think it might . . . Rand, I think it might make you weak, open you to attack, if you use it."

Notice here that Callandor is supposed to be able to "bind" Rand is some manner that weakens him. And it says it will bind him by twain, not bind him to twain, which is what will happen if he forms a circle using it.

Now, this last part is pure speculation on my part. I do think the three that became one are Elayne, Min and Aviendha. But as for a direct connection, I only have speculation:

We know that Callandor magnifies the taint. The taint is now gone, but the spiderweb of its compulsion is still in Rand's brain, but kept in check by a white glow. My prediction is that at the critical moment when Rand is using Callandor in a circle, the taint in his brain will be magnified, and it will leave him mind open to attack. Moridn, through his bond (whether warder bond or some other type of bond), and through Alanna's bond (she's BA, turned, tortured, or preferably, forced to pass her bond to Cyndane...) (the twain) will seek to use Callandor's weakness to control Rand.

This is when the three becoming one will be critical. This Warder bond is unique in that it is one bond split in three, meaning three bond holders for one bond. Whatever positive effects that traverses through the bond to the Warder now has three sources, two of them channelers. And notice that these bond holders are the sources of the "Veins of Gold", which is what spread out to protect Rand brain from Taint-compulsion (the layer of Light that Nynaeve detects).

There will, then, be a battle for Rand's mind. On the one hand we have Moridin and Alanna's bond aiding the taint (through the weakness in Callandor, hence the onyx hand holding the blade as it glows white), on the other hand we have Rand's three women, the women he loves, the source of the Veins of Gold that protect his mind from the taint.

Thoughts and criticisms?

newyorkersedai
01-18-2012, 07:59 PM
This is a nice way to turn the whole three-one thing into a topic other than Rand's coming to grips with his crowded mental space (moridin, ltt, himself). It's a nice use of the odd info we've received so late in the game regarding Rand's sword collection.

I don't know that the veins of gold are what are saving Rand's brain, tho. I thought the white space was protection caused by Rand's Epiphany and re-embracing the Light. The bond, however does make an effective avenue to Moridin attacking Rand, tho. And I don't think it's too big a leap to assume that - if Min's right about Callandor and his vulnerability - using that sword might open him up to manipulation through his connection the TP. The battle might actually be a quick grab to control Rand's body.

Actually, if Moridin has Alanna somehow, maybe Rand's "Cydane in Chains" dream was caused by manipulation of the bond itself. (But I still don't buy him getting all hot for her)

Terez
01-18-2012, 08:01 PM
I've always used that quote to show what I think 3-->1 is, but I think it refers to Rand's rebonding after his resurrection.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 08:11 PM
This is a nice way to turn the whole three-one thing into a topic other than Rand's coming to grips with his crowded mental space (moridin, ltt, himself). It's a nice use of the odd info we've received so late in the game regarding Rand's sword collection.
Thanks!

I don't know that the veins of gold are what are saving Rand's brain, tho. I thought the white space was protection caused by Rand's Epiphany and re-embracing the Light.
What is the name of the chapter where that happens again?

The bond, however does make an effective avenue to Moridin attacking Rand, tho. And I don't think it's too big a leap to assume that - if Min's right about Callandor and his vulnerability - using that sword might open him up to manipulation through his connection the TP. The battle might actually be a quick grab to control Rand's body.

Actually, if Moridin has Alanna somehow, maybe Rand's "Cydane in Chains" dream was caused by manipulation of the bond itself. (But I still don't buy him getting all hot for her)
Agreed.

Terez: I did find it unbelievable that no one else had thought of this. Good to know someone else has.

But do you really think there will be time re-bonding? As I read it, this Callandor based fight has to happen early on, before Rand is resurrected. I think Moridin's bond to Rand, Alanna's bond, the taint in his head... none of these will survive his death.

Terez
01-18-2012, 08:14 PM
I don't think there is really any evidence as to whether Rand's Callandor deal will happen before or after resurrection. I think the clues definitely point to Rand's death happening before the situation at Shayol Ghul is resolved, though. That fits with Nicola's Foretelling, with the fate of the world hanging in the balance, and Rand on the boat with the three women. Seems to me like he has just been resurrected. "He who is dead yet lives." And the three women are there to bond him again. That's why he has to die before he uses Callandor at Shayol Ghul, presumably; the link/bond with Moridin makes him vulnerable. Also, the blade of Light might possibly be the thing that makes you invisible to the Shadow.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't think there is really any evidence as to whether Rand's Callandor deal will happen before or after resurrection. I think the clues definitely point to Rand's death happening before the situation at Shayol Ghul is resolved, though. That fits with Nicola's Foretelling, with the fate of the world hanging in the balance, and Rand on the boat with the three women. Seems to me like he has just been resurrected. "He who is dead yet lives." And the three women are there to bond him again. That's why he has to die before he uses Callandor at Shayol Ghul, presumably; the link/bond with Moridin makes him vulnerable. Also, the blade of Light might possibly be the thing that makes you invisible to the Shadow.
Hmmm... I'll need to revisit Nicola's prophesy. I'll get back to you on this.

Dajoran
01-19-2012, 04:02 AM
“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

It all depends on how you read Nicola's foretelling. (This will be a short - albeit wordy summary)

At this point Rand is dead (booo!) - but is going to live again. (hooray! Go Light!!)

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

This is the timeframe - it can be taken in two major ways.

The Great Battle - this is either Tarmon Gai'don itself or as has been postulated across the board The Battle of Caemlyn.

The reasoning that it is Tarmon Gai'don: This is not just a great battle - but the greatest battle known - but the world is still not done with battle? Enter... the Seanchan as per Aviendha's "Out of Pattern" experience.

The reasoning that it is The Battle of Caemlyn:
This will be a great battle - the forsaken are throwing the forces of Shadow at this city as a Hail Mary - they know Rand is getting too close to victory. Enter... Demandred the Hater - (possible?) killer of Rand and victor of the great battle. (or Enter... Demandred et al! 13x13 bam Rand becomes DarkFrand (Sounds like a German saying Darkfriend - trust me...) followed by Moraine the killer of Rand... - anyway, it will be an Arthurian parallel of fun!)
But he world is still not done with battle? Ummm... we still have Tarmon Gai'don to do!


But this is all framing - scene setting.

The evidence of Callandor's usage comes from how you view the last line:

"The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

If and only if (it has taken years for me to break the habit of using iff) this can be taken as the future of the world rests on Callandor then we can postulate that it will truly be used when the world is finished with a great battle.

The rest lies - unfortunately - on your own perception...

Personaly, as much as Terez has convinced me that Rand will die at Caemlyn - I would like to see a subverssion of the Arthurian parallel. Rand to survive Caemlyn to die at TG - the Shadow sure in its victory and the LightSiders running away to regroup. Rand's resurrection happening in a very adrenaline rushing kinda way and using Callandor then...

But as I say - Terez is probably right - he'll die in Caemlyn, and be resurrected to fight the Last Battle.


Edit: OH OH!!! Good question here - Where will Rand be resurrected???

Terez
01-19-2012, 12:11 PM
It all depends on how you read Nicola's foretelling. (This will be a short - albeit wordy summary)

At this point Rand is dead (booo!) - but is going to live again. (hooray! Go Light!!)

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

This is the timeframe - it can be taken in two major ways.

The Great Battle - this is either Tarmon Gai'don itself or as has been postulated across the board The Battle of Caemlyn.

The reasoning that it is Tarmon Gai'don: This is not just a great battle - but the greatest battle known - but the world is still not done with battle? Enter... the Seanchan as per Aviendha's "Out of Pattern" experience.Not exactly. In the future she saw, there was no fighting after Rand went to Shayol Ghul because he had established the Peace.

Edit: OH OH!!! Good question here - Where will Rand be resurrected???
On a boat, duh.

eht slat meit
01-19-2012, 12:23 PM
On a boat, duh.

T-Pain?

Davian93
01-19-2012, 01:05 PM
And notice that these bond holders are the sources of the "Veins of Gold", which is what spread out to protect Rand brain from Taint-compulsion (the layer of Light that Nynaeve detects).



That's one theory on what they are...a theory that depends on a lot of conjecture and wishing. Regardless of the name of the chapter, those "veins of gold" could easily just be a reference of what brought on his epiphany...ie, the whole "why we fight" debate he entered into with himself. The veins representing his love with his wives and thus humanity. Would not Naeff have liquid power from a female channeler bond too? Or does it only magically appear if its two female channelers bonding one male channeler. SHould he not at least have 1 vein of gold...He being Naeff?

It makes more sense that the Liquid Power is some sort of PLE from the Creator/Power that happened during his epiphany...a gift from the Light to keep him sane until he needs to die. I think you are taking the title of a chapter far too literally there.

Terez
01-19-2012, 01:17 PM
I doubt the Wheel interfered directly to protect his brain. More likely he did it himself.

Davian93
01-19-2012, 01:21 PM
I doubt the Wheel interfered directly to protect his brain. More likely he did it himself.

Thats a possibility too but either way its ludicrous to suggest that it is a result of the bond with 2 female channelers. Especially when we have Nynaeve delving another bonded male channeler immediately beforehand and noting nothing of the sort.

Seriously though, why cant it be a PLE? The entire experience on Dragonmount was a PLE.

fionwe1987
01-19-2012, 01:29 PM
That's one theory on what they are...a theory that depends on a lot of conjecture and wishing. Regardless of the name of the chapter, those "veins of gold" could easily just be a reference of what brought on his epiphany...ie, the whole "why we fight" debate he entered into with himself. The veins representing his love with his wives and thus humanity. Would not Naeff have liquid power from a female channeler bond too? Or does it only magically appear if its two female channelers bonding one male channeler. SHould he not at least have 1 vein of gold...He being Naeff?

It makes more sense that the Liquid Power is some sort of PLE from the Creator/Power that happened during his epiphany...a gift from the Light to keep him sane until he needs to die. I think you are taking the title of a chapter far too literally there.
I didn't know Naeff and Nelavaire were in love.

Davian93
01-19-2012, 01:30 PM
I didn't know Naeff and Nelavaire were in love.

Oh...so "love" magically turns into liquid power in ones brain.

Okay then.:rolleyes:

eht slat meit
01-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Worked for Harry Potter.

fionwe1987
01-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Oh...so "love" magically turns into liquid power in ones brain.

Okay then.:rolleyes:
Doesn't it? It was the realization that his love was possibly reborn somewhere that allowed Rand to reintegrate, which is probably when the liquid light came into existence.

Davian93
01-19-2012, 01:48 PM
Doesn't it? It was the realization that his love was possibly reborn somewhere that allowed Rand to reintegrate, which is probably when the liquid light came into existence.

Realizing that love was why he needed to stay alive might have allowed the Pattern to produce that effect but it wasn't due to the bond. It was his overall love and moment of clarity that created it...not a direct result of the bond/veins of gold as you are saying. I would suggest that the same effect occurs regardless of any OP bond being in place.

Terez
01-19-2012, 01:49 PM
Seriously though, why cant it be a PLE?Because it's cheap, that's why.

The entire experience on Dragonmount was a PLE.
I don't think so.

fionwe1987
01-19-2012, 01:50 PM
Realizing that love was why he needed to stay alive might have allowed the Pattern to produce that effect but it wasn't due to the bond. It was his overall love and moment of clarity that created it...not a direct result of the bond/veins of gold as you are saying. I would suggest that the same effect occurs regardless of any OP bond being in place.
Well, I have the chapter name and the actual trigger to support my point. You have... what, exactly?

Davian93
01-19-2012, 01:55 PM
Because it's cheap, that's why.


I don't think so.

No more cheap than Rand's fight in TDR knocking Taim off his horse in Saldaea...

Well, I have the chapter name and the actual trigger to support my point. You have... what, exactly?

You're taking a chapter name far too literally.

eht slat meit
01-19-2012, 02:02 PM
Doesn't it? It was the realization that his love was possibly reborn somewhere that allowed Rand to reintegrate, which is probably when the liquid light came into existence.

fmpov, the liquid light already existed, and is a manifestation of the Dragon Soul. The overwhelming shadow in his life denied Rand the ability to access his own true power, and the revelations of love and second chances allowed him to reintegrate and sweep away the darkness.

It's still there, and can return, but likely won't this late in the game.

Crispin's Crispian
01-19-2012, 02:11 PM
Realizing that love was why he needed to stay alive might have allowed the Pattern to produce that effect but it wasn't due to the bond. It was his overall love and moment of clarity that created it...not a direct result of the bond/veins of gold as you are saying. I would suggest that the same effect occurs regardless of any OP bond being in place.

I think you also need to show that Naeff's bond was the same as the weave Elayne and Aviendha used. It's possible their bond was different.

And don't discount the "love" factor, Dav. It's going to be a lot more important than you think.

Davian93
01-19-2012, 02:14 PM
I think you also need to show that Naeff's bond was the same as the weave Elayne and Aviendha used. It's possible their bond was different.

And don't discount the "love" factor, Dav. It's going to be a lot more important than you think.


I'm not discounting the love factor at all. I just disagree that the bond has anything at all to do with the liquid power.

Zombie Sammael
01-19-2012, 02:47 PM
fmpov, the liquid light already existed, and is a manifestation of the Dragon Soul. The overwhelming shadow in his life denied Rand the ability to access his own true power, and the revelations of love and second chances allowed him to reintegrate and sweep away the darkness.

It's still there, and can return, but likely won't this late in the game.

"Dragon soul"?

Terez
01-19-2012, 03:21 PM
It's not discounting love to say that Rand's brain can't be magically warded from the taint because of love. He was holding more saidin at the time than anyone in living memory ever had (which is a long damn time thanks to Rand and the Forsaken and Birgitte and Mat). No doubt he did something with it. You can't Heal yourself, but maybe you can ward yourself.

Davian93
01-19-2012, 05:29 PM
It's not discounting love to say that Rand's brain can't be magically warded from the taint because of love. He was holding more saidin at the time than anyone in living memory ever had (which is a long damn time thanks to Rand and the Forsaken and Birgitte and Mat). No doubt he did something with it. You can't Heal yourself, but maybe you can ward yourself.

That's a possibility...he DID have access to every single memory of every single previous Dragon there for a bit.

I still lean towards my 'Rand is the Creator's Avatar PLE' explanation but your guess does hold some weight at least.

eht slat meit
01-19-2012, 06:07 PM
"Dragon soul"?

That which I refer to as the Champion of the Light or Fisher King (HoTH), I understand is referred to here as the Dragon Soul. If I'm mistaken on that, let me know, but I consider that to be a third entity, a sort of Holy Ghost to the Father/Son that is LTT/Rand. I also believe that it is the originator of the Voice at the end of TEoTW, not LTT, as well as the "third" that LTT refers to in what seems to be paranoid ramblings.

There's a few theories somewhere in that, but I haven't put them down on paper yet, mostly in pieces here and on DM forums.

suttree
01-20-2012, 12:02 AM
as well as the "third" that LTT refers to in what seems to be paranoid ramblings.


Wouldn't that be Moridin?

eht slat meit
01-20-2012, 12:26 AM
Wouldn't that be Moridin?

Could be interpreted either way, from the quotes I've looked at, referring to the 'we are not builders' and "how many will we three kill before the end" quotes.

Neither Rand nor LTT recognize Moridin's face as one of the Forsaken in KoD which is well after the balefire incident, but both quotes by LTT seem to recognize the "third" as someone familiar, with a kinship as a killer and destroyer. There's a possibility that Moridin is still the "third", but it doesn't seem to jibe for me. Two separate issues, to my mind.

Dajoran
01-20-2012, 03:43 AM
Not exactly. In the future she saw, there was no fighting after Rand went to Shayol Ghul because he had established the Peace.

Ah, I didn't realise that the Aiel where killed and pushed back into the Three-fold land by old age :rolleyes:

On a boat, duh.

No. That is where his body is - let me put it this way.

If - as you suggested to me - Nynaeve is going to rip Rand back out of T'A'R to resurrect him sans injuries. Does it have to be where his body is?

That is - will there be a situation where the Powerpuff Girls are floating down a river with Rands body - yet Nynaeve is somewhere else - possibly with Egwene and Perrin.

Or even... scratch that - it doesn't matter where Nynaeve is in the real world - but where she is in T'A'R... like with Birgette being materialised in Luca's camp right where Mog put the mojo on her. You appear in the real world to mirror where you are ripped out of T'A'R. (As far as the one bit of evidence we have puts it anyway...)

I mean if they are to do it on the boat... boats move... if it moves during the process?... it's gonna be hard enough on Rand without his accidental drowning.

(Loony time - This could be another facet to Alanna's purpose as she could be the only person available at that point to bond him (again) to keep him alive)

Terez
01-20-2012, 03:50 AM
Ah, I didn't realise that the Aiel where killed and pushed back into the Three-fold land by old age :rolleyes:They deliberately sabotaged the Peace that Rand had established. I'm talking about the moment of Nicola's Foretelling, when Rand is dead-yet-living on the boat. The fate of the world still hangs in the balance, and the land is divided by the Return, and not done with battle. That doesn't sound anything like what happened in Aviendha's vision of the future.

No. That is where his body is - let me put it this way.

If - as you suggested to me - Nynaeve is going to rip Rand back out of T'A'R to resurrect him sans injuries. Does it have to be where his body is?
No, the body that gets ripped out is a new body, and presumably they can stage it wherever.

I mean if they are to do it on the boat... boats move... if it moves during the process?... it's gonna be hard enough on Rand without his accidental drowning.
I think the boat might partly be a protection device. Difficult to reach by gateway.

Dajoran
01-20-2012, 04:45 AM
They deliberately sabotaged the Peace that Rand had established. I'm talking about the moment of Nicola's Foretelling, when Rand is dead-yet-living on the boat. The fate of the world still hangs in the balance, and the land is divided by the Return, and not done with battle. That doesn't sound anything like what happened in Aviendha's vision of the future.

Accepted. This however stretches the ambiguity of what will constitute the 'Great Battle' - something greater than just Caemlyn must be involved - we know the Black Tower may be hoofed in with Caemlyn, but I believed you also mentioned the Seanchan in Tar Valon also as being in the same time frame. Maybe while the main characters are all at these three locations, the assault on the Blight will be occurring?

No, the body that gets ripped out is a new body, and presumably they can stage it wherever.

I think the boat might partly be a protection device. Difficult to reach by gateway.

So, something in the vein of a Dreamspike? Or, at least, an Elayne made imperfect copy - if it is Elayne made it could explain the reasoning behind preventing gateways, but allowing HotH-Rand access to the area without the life-drain-purple-barrier. As well as, allowing Slayer easier access.

fionwe1987
01-20-2012, 08:43 AM
Could be interpreted either way, from the quotes I've looked at, referring to the 'we are not builders' and "how many will we three kill before the end" quotes.

Neither Rand nor LTT recognize Moridin's face as one of the Forsaken in KoD which is well after the balefire incident, but both quotes by LTT seem to recognize the "third" as someone familiar, with a kinship as a killer and destroyer. There's a possibility that Moridin is still the "third", but it doesn't seem to jibe for me. Two separate issues, to my mind.
Yet, Rand recognized Moridin when they met in the dream, and he recognized Cyndane too.

Davian93
01-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Yet, Rand recognized Moridin when they met in the dream, and he recognized Cyndane too.

That was after his re-integration though. He didn't have access to everything prior to that. Also, it might be easier for him to recognize things in TAR than it would be in the real world.

Dajoran
01-20-2012, 08:57 AM
Neither Rand nor LTT recognize Moridin's face as one of the Forsaken in KoD which is well after the balefire incident, but both quotes by LTT seem to recognize the "third" as someone familiar, with a kinship as a killer and destroyer. There's a possibility that Moridin is still the "third", but it doesn't seem to jibe for me. Two separate issues, to my mind.

LTT has a nature for detecting souls. So it is possible that he recognised Moridin's soul.

Kinda in the same way Rand does when he recognises Moridin for who he used to be.



He had seen this man before in visions, not unlike the ones that appeared when he thought of Mat or Perrin.
----
The visions he'd seen of the man in the other chair were different from the ones involving Perrin and Mat. They were more visceral, somehow, more real.
----
At times during those visions, Rand had felt almost as if he could reach out and touch this man. He'd been afraid of what would happen if he did.
He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew.
"You are dead," Rand whispered. "I killed you."
The man didn't look from the fire as he laughed. It was a rough, low-throated laugh that held little true mirth. Once, Rand had known this man only as Ba'alzamon—a name for the Dark One—and had foolishly thought that in killing him, he had defeated the Shadow for good.
"I watched you die," Rand said. "I stabbed you through the chest with Callandor. Isha—"
"That is not my name," the man interrupted, still watching the flames. "I am known as Moridin, now."

Crispin's Crispian
01-20-2012, 10:53 AM
So, something in the vein of a Dreamspike? Or, at least, an Elayne made imperfect copy - if it is Elayne made it could explain the reasoning behind preventing gateways, but allowing HotH-Rand access to the area without the life-drain-purple-barrier. As well as, allowing Slayer easier access.

I think the boat is involved in the Jendai Prophecies. Just a hunch, but we haven't seen nor heard enough of the Atha'an Miere's role in serving the Dragon. It could definitely still be a protective measure, but there may also be a specific place to which the Sea Folk are supposed to ferry Rand.

All speculation, of course.

eht slat meit
01-20-2012, 11:27 AM
LTT has a nature for detecting souls. So it is possible that he recognised Moridin's soul.

Kinda in the same way Rand does when he recognises Moridin for who he used to be.

Like I said, I agree that it's possible. I've been working the quotes against each other to make sense of how the free-association (Ansaline Gardens, etc) that prompts Moridin's face and the "third" quotes from LTT balance against each other, but it's awkward, and it's like at some points Rand is channeling through his own memories, and at others through LTT's. That split is normal enough, but it comes across weird, like they're taking turns detecting his soul.

Terez
01-20-2012, 02:08 PM
I think the boat is involved in the Jendai Prophecies.
This is something I've argued before, too. They have a thing about doing everything important on the water, even dying and giving birth. If a woman is shorebound when it's time for her to deliver, she has to go out on a little boat on the nearest body of water.

Crispin's Crispian
01-20-2012, 02:26 PM
This is something I've argued before, too. They have a thing about doing everything important on the water, even dying and giving birth. If a woman is shorebound when it's time for her to deliver, she has to go out on a little boat on the nearest body of water.

One day, Terez. One day we're going to find something you haven't thought of, argued, or seen before.

Terez
01-20-2012, 02:28 PM
One day, Terez. One day we're going to find something you haven't thought of, argued, or seen before.
It's subliminal, you know.

Davian93
01-20-2012, 02:28 PM
One day, Terez. One day we're going to find something you haven't thought of, argued, or seen before.

I sometimes enjoy reading the archives to see things I've argued and completely forgotten about years later. Its pretty interesting sometimes. Its very very rare for us to have a completely new discussion...especially without any new material to look at.

Seeker
01-20-2012, 04:09 PM
I think the biggest problem with assuming the Three Become One Prophecy applies to Min, Elayne and Aviendha is that the phrase itself implies that the three things join with each other.

You can't really interpret their bond with Rand as a sign that Min, Elayne and Aviendha have become one because they aren't connected to each other in any way. Min can feel Rand's emotions and Rand can feel Aviendha's but Min can't feel Aviendha's or Elayne's. I don't think the Bond is prophetic in any way.

It's tempting to say that love played a part in the restoration of Rand's sanity - and from a conceptual standpoint, it did - but did it create the white light that shields him from the taint?... No. I'm sorry, I can't accept that. That's too simplistic

Terez
01-20-2012, 04:14 PM
I sometimes enjoy reading the archives to see things I've argued and completely forgotten about years later. Its pretty interesting sometimes. Its very very rare for us to have a completely new discussion...especially without any new material to look at.
Did you see my new sig quote? It's from this thread (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/2318#.TxnZ0mNWq68), which I just found yesterday when looking for the 'definition of terms' thread I linked on Non. Apparently I didn't think the thread was worth a post at the time.

Terez
01-20-2012, 09:51 PM
Accepted. This however stretches the ambiguity of what will constitute the 'Great Battle' - something greater than just Caemlyn must be involved - we know the Black Tower may be hoofed in with Caemlyn, but I believed you also mentioned the Seanchan in Tar Valon also as being in the same time frame. Maybe while the main characters are all at these three locations, the assault on the Blight will be occurring?Yeah, I just think that Caemlyn and the Black Tower are the epicenter of the Shadow's offensive strategy. I think that's where Demandred's plans are focused, and he's the general, and according to Brandon, considered to be the Shadow's 'main player' in AMOL. I think the dreamspike is part of his plans, even though it was Moridin's toy, and Moridin seems to have undercut his authority over Taim.

So, something in the vein of a Dreamspike?
eh, not really.


Or, at least, an Elayne made imperfect copy - if it is Elayne made it could explain the reasoning behind preventing gateways, but allowing HotH-Rand access to the area without the life-drain-purple-barrier. As well as, allowing Slayer easier access.
I think Slayer will be dead by the time Rand is resurrected.

Terez
01-20-2012, 09:58 PM
I think the biggest problem with assuming the Three Become One Prophecy applies to Min, Elayne and Aviendha is that the phrase itself implies that the three things join with each other.
Which is exactly what happens when the bond is being formed, as the passage clearly demonstrates. Just that bit:

From each of them, she extended the weave in narrow lines toward Rand, twisting the three lines into one, changing it into the Warder bond. That, she laid on Rand as softly as if she were laying a blanket on a baby. The spiderweb of Spirit settled around him, settled into him. He did not even blink, but it was done. She let go of saidar. Done.

You can't really interpret their bond with Rand as a sign that Min, Elayne and Aviendha have become one because they aren't connected to each other in any way.
They are connected to him through the same bond, though. It could just refer to the Callandor circle, but that's boring, so...

Seeker
01-21-2012, 04:38 PM
Which is exactly what happens when the bond is being formed, as the passage clearly demonstrates. Just that bit:




They are connected to him through the same bond, though. It could just refer to the Callandor circle, but that's boring, so...

I suppose it depends on what is meant by "the three?" Okay, so three weaves of Spirit became one and settled onto Rand. But Elayne, Min and Aviendha have not become one in any applicable sense of the word.

So, now I have to ask, do you really think the prophecy was meant to refer to three weaves of Spirit being merged together? That's a little like having a prophecy that says "the pencil shall fall off his desk and land on the floor."

I'm sure weaves of spirit - not necessarily the warder bond - get merged together all the time in Randland.

maleshub
01-21-2012, 08:17 PM
If Rand is ripped out from TAR to be saved/resurrected, does that mean that the attempt to seal the bore will be done in TAR? Or is that a reference to him falling for Lanfear's trap in TAR?

The Lanfear part comes from the end of book 13 as well as the Dark Prophecy that Verin handed to Suian and Moiraine in TGH "daughter of the night searching for her lover to die and to serve ... " (or however that went).

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 06:22 AM
If Rand is ripped out from TAR to be saved/resurrected, does that mean that the attempt to seal the bore will be done in TAR? Or is that a reference to him falling for Lanfear's trap in TAR?

The Lanfear part comes from the end of book 13 as well as the Dark Prophecy that Verin handed to Suian and Moiraine in TGH "daughter of the night searching for her lover to die and to serve ... " (or however that went).

I made a new thread (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=175981#post175981) to discuss this.