PDA

View Full Version : The Dark Prophecy Unfulfilled


Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 06:21 AM
NOTE: This was originally a response to "Have The Three Become One?" thread, but as I got into writing it, I decided it probably warranted its own thread. I also used some ideas from the Cuendillar thread.

If Rand is ripped out from TAR to be saved/resurrected, does that mean that the attempt to seal the bore will be done in TAR? Or is that a reference to him falling for Lanfear's trap in TAR?

The Lanfear part comes from the end of book 13 as well as the Dark Prophecy that Verin handed to Suian and Moiraine in TGH "daughter of the night searching for her lover to die and to serve ... " (or however that went).

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.

This prophecy has not been fulfilled, but it's from so long ago that a lot of people have forgotten about it. The rest of the Dark Prophecy has come true in one way or another. There are a couple of curious bits associated with this. Firstly, Rand has not become Lanfear's lover. Secondly, even if he did, at this stage, would that really qualify him as a "new lover", given that he to all intents and purposes is Lews Therin and has all of his memories? If that's the case, the question in the first place should be: who is the new lover? At this stage, the candidates appear to be down to Rand and Moridin, but Moridin can't be said to be serving her in any meaningful sense, nor is there any indication that he has the ability to die and come back. So the new lover most likely is Rand, and we have to assume that's something that will happen in AMOL; particularly since "lover" is a term that has a peculiarly physical connotation to it, implying that an old soul in a new body would a new lover be...

So the question appears to be, in what way shall Rand serve Lanfear (now Cyndane*)? He could serve her by rescuing her from the shadow, as the end of TOM suggests he is considering doing. I've thought for a while that the end of TOM will propel Rand into going off and doing something foolhardy before the rest of the world is ready, perhaps leading to his untimely death (and, if he is the Broken Wolf, bringing suffering and sorrow to the hearts of men). The prevailing notion is that Rand/The Dragon will be torn out of TAR. Lanfear, of course, claimed TAR as her realm (even though Moggy was more skilled), and so far the only person we've seen perform the ripping out of TAR was a Forsaken.

Interestingly, the "weave" that ripped Birgitte out of TAR may not have been a weave at all. There's been some recent discussion of the notion that Moghedien might have performed it with the True Power, but then there's this, from Brandon:

Brandon confirmed this. He added that the real question would be of a non-channeler would be able to 'channel' in Tel'aran'rhiod. He believed that a non-channeler would not be able to channel, but would be able to create the same effects. So to most intents and purposes it would look as if they channeled.

Here's the specific extract:

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

Note that Nynaeve does not notice any weaves or flows forming from Moghedien. This might be because she's simply too traumatised, or it might be because Moghedien used the True Power, or it might be because she didn't actually channel. If it's either of the latter, why is the glow noticeable? The True Power has been discussed elsewhere (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6396&page=8), so I'll not go into it here, other than to say that I do not think it is possible or necessarily the case that Moghedien could hold both the OP and the TP at the same time. However, what happens to Birgitte does appear very much like a TP-gateway pushing her out of TAR, as it resembles Ishamael's travelling in Dragonmount.

However, the glow appearing when Moghedien was merely manipulating TAR might have a few alternative explanations. The first: channelling makes it easier to manipulate TAR strongly without being altered yourself. This is pure conjecture, based on the notion of the oneness as a concentration exercise and a vague idea that the One Power might make someone harder to alter in TAR. The second is that it may simply have been a distraction. Moghedien probably did not want Nynaeve to know what she was doing; if you can harm a Hero of the Horn by tearing her out of TAR, imagine what you could do to a regular Dreamwalker. Hint: it probably doesn't involve waking up.

Whatever the nature of Birgitte's ripping out, the likelihood is that Nynaeve al'Meara does not know how to do it. She took note of no weaves, perhaps being so blinded by Moghedien's glow that she couldn't see them. She has more experience with TAR than many others, but nowhere near the skill of Moghedien. She cannot channel the True Power. Compare all that to Lanfear: if it is a weave, it's a weave known to at least one of the Chosen, and it's not too much of a leap to suggest it might also be known to others; she is skilled enough with TAR to claim it as her realm, despite Moghedien's superior skill; she is a Chosen, and may retain permission to channel the True Power.

What I envisage is Rand's death during the escape attempt with Cyndane (or afterwards due to some injury). Nynaeve will then remember how Birgitte was ripped from TAR and hit upon it as a way to bring Rand back, but will be unable to accomplish it alone. Cyndane will help her, but will demand a price for her aid; in this way, Rand will serve her (by rescuing her) and die (in the attempt) but serve her still (by being torn out of TAR by Cyndane and agreeing to some price in order to return and save the world). The more I think about this, the more it looks as if Cyndane is actually the only person who could manage this.

*unless you're Felix.

sleepinghour
01-22-2012, 06:46 AM
I like this idea, but I think Nynaeve would be more likely to try to force Moghedien to do it than make a deal with Cyndane. Also, we don't know if Moghedien's way is the only way to remove someone from T'A'R. I've always wondered what would happen if someone entered T'A'R in the flesh through a gateway like Rand at the end of TFoH and tried to bring him out that way.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 10:12 AM
I like this idea, but I think Nynaeve would be more likely to try to force Moghedien to do it than make a deal with Cyndane. Also, we don't know if Moghedien's way is the only way to remove someone from T'A'R. I've always wondered what would happen if someone entered T'A'R in the flesh through a gateway like Rand at the end of TFoH and tried to bring him out that way.

So how do you think Rand will end up serving Cyndane after he dies? The prophecy must be fulfilled.

eht slat meit
01-22-2012, 10:38 AM
What part of it is unfulfilled? It doesn't explicitly say that she would succeed in getting her new lover, or that the Shining Walls would kneel to her. In fact, it's somewhat circumspect in this, in a way that reeks of trickery and self-delusion hallmarking _dark_ prophecy.

She certainly did seek her new lover. She didn't get him, but she sought him.

Rand served her interests for a time, and will die, as foretold.

Moiraine stood against her coming.

The Shining Walls did kneel... bending knee to the forgotten sign as foretold by KC prophecy. Had Moiraine not stood against her, they would have still bent knee to that sign, but under Lanfear's control.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 11:29 AM
What part of it is unfulfilled? It doesn't explicitly say that she would succeed in getting her new lover, or that the Shining Walls would kneel to her. In fact, it's somewhat circumspect in this, in a way that reeks of trickery and self-delusion hallmarking _dark_ prophecy.

She certainly did seek her new lover. She didn't get him, but she sought him.

Rand served her interests for a time, and will die, as foretold.

Moiraine stood against her coming.

The Shining Walls did kneel... bending knee to the forgotten sign as foretold by KC prophecy. Had Moiraine not stood against her, they would have still bent knee to that sign, but under Lanfear's control.

The part that is unfulfilled, even on your interpretation, is "serve her and die, yet serve her still". I'd quibble about Rand serving her interests for a time, but that's unimportant really. The significant part is his serving her after death. I agree that the shining walls kneeling is the same prophecy as "break and bend knee" so that doesn't matter.

The only possible other interpretation is that Rand will serve her by saving her after he has died. This relies on the idea that he served her in some way prior to her death, which I don't think is true; she wanted him to serve her, but he always resisted her.

I think the "lover" part definitely suggests a relationship between Rand and Cyndane. It says he will be her lover, not the other way round, which suggests reciprocation.

sleepinghour
01-22-2012, 12:13 PM
So how do you think Rand will end up serving Cyndane after he dies? The prophecy must be fulfilled.

Moiraine said the 'Finn treaty held for both of them, which means Lanfear also got three wishes. Given Lanfear's state of mind at the time when she fell through the doorway—murderously angry at Rand for having betrayed her with another woman—one or more of her wishes likely involved him.

Interestingly, Moiraine also saw a possible future in which Lanfear carried Rand off and made him her devoted lover. So despite the murderous rage she displayed at the end of TFoH, Lanfear's wishes could have been aimed at making Rand want her (even if only in the sense of 'I want him to want me and suffer'). And he does experience desire for Cyndane at the end of ToM even though she doesn't look like her old self.

Rand froze, staring into that pit. He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead, he felt hatred, concern, and—like a seething viper within him—desire.

We can probably rule out Moridin as Lanfear's new lover since Brandon said (in response to a fan question) that he wasn't aware of anything in the notes that specified whether Moridin was gay or not. Otherwise, that would have explained Rand's sudden desire for Cyndane—that those were actually Moridin's feelings.

As for ways Rand could serve her, I think he will (inadvertently or not) free her from the cour'souvra, possibly as a result of Moridin dying or becoming incapacited when Rand dies.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 12:37 PM
Moiraine said the 'Finn treaty held for both of them, which means Lanfear also got three wishes. Given Lanfear's state of mind at the time when she fell through the doorway—murderously angry at Rand for having betrayed her with another woman—one or more of her wishes likely involved him.

Interestingly, Moiraine also saw a possible future in which Lanfear carried Rand off and made him her devoted lover. So despite the murderous rage she displayed at the end of TFoH, Lanfear's wishes could have been aimed at making Rand want her (even if only in the sense of 'I want him to want me and suffer'). And he does experience desire for Cyndane at the end of ToM even though she doesn't look like her old self.



We can probably rule out Moridin as Lanfear's new lover since Brandon said (in response to a fan question) that he wasn't aware of anything in the notes that specified whether Moridin was gay or not. Otherwise, that would have explained Rand's sudden desire for Cyndane—that those were actually Moridin's feelings.

As for ways Rand could serve her, I think he will (inadvertently or not) free her from the cour'souvra, possibly as a result of Moridin dying or becoming incapacited when Rand dies.

If that's the case, how do you think he serves her before death? The examples to me seem to be more like Lanfear claiming he was doing as she wanted than him actually doing so. To be clear, my thinking is that the pre-death service is freeing her from the shadow/Moridin/the cour'souvra, with some other service (romance?) coming about after his death and her involvement in his resurrection.

finn
01-22-2012, 01:21 PM
Note that Nynaeve does not notice any weaves or flows forming from Moghedien. This might be because she's simply too traumatised

We know that when her block was still in place, Nynaeve could not see weaves unless she was angry so that could be it.

Tomp
01-22-2012, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by TGH, 7, Blood Calls Blood
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.



I've thought on this.

The line: "Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

Everybody assumes the new lover is Rand. If that was the case it should be: "her old lover she seeks".

What if it is someone else who's her new lover.

It may be that Moridin has had her as a "love companion".

If Rand in some way frees her from the cour'souvra. It may be interpreted in the following way.

Lanfear/Cyndane is freed from Moridin and she walks free again.
Her new lover could then mean Moridin. I have no idea exactly what she does to him with the serve and die business. Perhaps he stops being Naeblis and that is the die part.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 01:34 PM
I've thought on this.

The line: "Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

Everybody assumes the new lover is Rand. If that was the case it should be: "her old lover she seeks".

What if it is someone else who's her new lover.

I think the reason people think that it must be Rand is because of the following line about dying yet still serving. No-one else except Mat has the coming back from death foreshadowing that Rand does. If you think it might be Mat, firstly you're in Felix territory (i admit I'm already skirting close with my ideas about Rand serving by becoming a lover) , and secondly you have to bear in mind that he's died and lived again twice already without hooking up with Lanfear. Chronology might not necessarily be important, though, and there is a similarity between the title "Daughter of the Night" and "Daughter of the Nine Moons".

Terez
01-22-2012, 01:50 PM
Just because the weaves weren't described doesn't mean she didn't see them. :rolleyes: Also, when she was blocked, she couldn't even see the glow of saidar, so we know she wasn't blocked.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Just because the weaves weren't described doesn't mean she didn't see them. :rolleyes: Also, when she was blocked, she couldn't even see the glow of saidar, so we know she wasn't blocked.

Unless it was something Moghedien was doing on purpose, a TAR effect.

Terez
01-22-2012, 02:03 PM
In that case, Nynaeve would have noted the strangeness of the fact that there were no weaves.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 02:08 PM
In that case, Nynaeve would have noted the strangeness of the fact that there were no weaves.

And yet, neither did Nynaeve note that there were any weaves. Even if there were and she did, she may well have not remembered them.

Terez
01-22-2012, 02:17 PM
And yet, neither did Nynaeve note that there were any weaves.This is so fucking stupid. Why should she have?


Even if there were and she did, she may well have not remembered them.
You haven't read a single word I've written on this subject, have you? RJ and Brandon pointed out several times that she only has to see a weave once to remember it.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 02:36 PM
This is so fucking stupid. Why should she have?



You haven't read a single word I've written on this subject, have you? RJ and Brandon pointed out several times that she only has to see a weave once to remember it.

Terez, I posited three different possible reasons why she might not have done. Plus, this very discussion was had elsewhere very recently, as I both pointed out and linked to. The key point of the theory is that Nynaeve doesn't know how to do whatever Moghedien did. It's more likely than not that she doesn't, because there are more methods by which it might have been done that she couldn't see than the one she did. If you want to debate that all over again, go do it in that thread. There's no reason for the attitude, the insults, or the language, especiallly when you know for a fact that I have read your writings.

Terez
01-22-2012, 02:40 PM
Terez, I posited three different possible reasons why she might not have done.
And the simplest, most intelligent reason never occurred to you. :rolleyes:

The key point of the theory is that Nynaeve doesn't know how to do whatever Moghedien did.
Which is retarded.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 02:44 PM
And the simplest, most intelligent reason never occurred to you. :rolleyes:


Which is retarded.

It apparently occurred to you, so why not enlighten me? I'm always willing to listen, if not agree, if you can manage it without being rude.

Terez
01-22-2012, 02:50 PM
Already did so, but I'll try to spell it out a little more for you since you're having trouble. There are plenty of times when Nynaeve watches people channel, and the weaves aren't described. Why should they be described in this case? 1) It's not required for us to know that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien was doing. 2) Weave description would have taken away from the emotional nature of the scene. 3) Weave description would have made it entirely too obvious that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien did, and could duplicate. Since it's one of the biggest secrets in the books, RJ didn't want to hit us over the head with it. That simple.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Already did so, but I'll try to spell it out a little more for you since you're having trouble. There are plenty of times when Nynaeve watches people channel, and the weaves aren't described. Why should they be described in this case? 1) It's not required for us to know that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien was doing. 2) Weave description would have taken away from the emotional nature of the scene. 3) Weave description would have made it entirely too obvious that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien did, and could duplicate. Since it's one of the biggest secrets in the books, RJ didn't want to hit us over the head with it. That simple.

You're attempting to prove a positive (that Nynaeve knows the weave) using a negative (that it has never since been mentioned). There are alternate explanations for all of the points you suggest. It may not have been mentioned because Nynaeve simply didn't see it or because it was done by a method she couldn't see. How realistic is it that in all the time she was emo-ing about Birgitte she never once beat herself up for remembering "that awful weave"? Even if RJ wanted to conceal it, simply not mentioning a key plot point isn't his style. The simplest explanation is she just doesn't know how it was done. There's simply no evidence she does.

Terez
01-22-2012, 03:11 PM
You're attempting to prove a positive (that Nynaeve knows the weave) using a negative (that it has never since been mentioned).
No, actually I'm not. I never said there was proof; just that the evidence was good. :rolleyes:

There are alternate explanations for all of the points you suggest.
And against all the evidence and foreshadowing, those alternate explanations are retarded.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 03:35 PM
No, actually I'm not. I never said there was proof; just that the evidence was good. :rolleyes:


And against all the evidence and foreshadowing, those alternate explanations are retarded.

The evidence is good for the other side, too though, as I've presented already. There is your argument against it, and I am smart enough to see it (thank you very much) but I'm still not convinced.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the foreshadowing is that Nynaeve will find a way to "heal" death. In my theory, she's still partly responsible for that, by remembering that Moghedien did what she did. In a sense, she still finds the way to do it, even if she doesn't actually do it herself.

You know, I'd be happy to discuss any further objections with you, without it having to be an argument. Just because it conflicts with some of your ideas doesn't mean it's either necessarily incorrect, or totally incompatible. Saying you've already discussed it elsewhere won't really contribute to this discussion, though. Apply it to my theory and we'll see where we get.

Terez
01-22-2012, 03:38 PM
The evidence is good for the other side, too though, as I've presented already. There is your argument against it, and I am smart enough to see it (thank you very much) but I'm still not convinced.
No one cares. It's going to happen whether or not Zombie Sammael is convinced of it.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 03:47 PM
No one cares. It's going to happen whether or not Zombie Sammael is convinced of it.

Speak for yourself.

WHy did you bother replying at all? To shut down the discussion? To satisfy your own sense of superiority? To make sure no-one posts anything that's different from your own.ideas of what will happen? I just don't get why you bother if all you can manage as a discussion is "you're retarded" and "no-one cares". For someonee who "likes interestingting discussions" you sure do like shutting them down.

How do YOU think this prophecy will be fulfilled? That might be an interesting discussion. If you can manage it.

Terez
01-22-2012, 03:51 PM
Speak for yourself.
It's not a matter of speaking for anyone. It's a matter of what will be in the book you will be reading come November.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 03:56 PM
It's not a matter of speaking for anyone. It's a matter of what will be in the book you will be reading come November.

Since that book isn't being written by Terez, I don't really see any reason to care what you think either. I notice you're responding quite selectively. Must be because you don't have anything worthwhile to say.

Terez
01-22-2012, 04:01 PM
Since that book isn't being written by Terez, I don't really see any reason to care what you think either.
I don't care what you think about it because we'll all know in November, and you'll be proven wrong. Someone asked me recently which of my theories I thought was most solid. After disambiguating the definition of 'my' theories, I told them that Nynaeve resurrects Rand via Tel'aran'rhiod is the most solid by far. There are good reasons for that.

I notice you're responding quite selectively. Must be because you don't have anything worthwhile to say.It means that most of your points are not worth addressing.

Zombie Sammael
01-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I don't care what you think about it because we'll all know in November, and you'll be proven wrong. Someone asked me recently which of my theories I thought was most solid. After disambiguating the definition of 'my' theories, I told them that Nynaeve resurrects Rand via Tel'aran'rhiod is the most solid by far. There are good reasons for that.

It means that most of your points are not worth addressing.

Then post them. I've given you ample.opportunities. also, just saying my points aren't worth addressing doesn't make it so. You have to actually address and dismiss them. Dont forget, I've posted a theory. You've posted nothing but insults and haughty dismissiveness.

eht slat meit
01-22-2012, 08:49 PM
The part that is unfulfilled, even on your interpretation, is "serve her and die, yet serve her still". I'd quibble about Rand serving her interests for a time, but that's unimportant really. The significant part is his serving her after death. I agree that the shining walls kneeling is the same prophecy as "break and bend knee" so that doesn't matter.


Ah, fair point, I'd overlooked that. It's also not a stand I'd defend further, because I also forgot that I'd discussed this back on DM with a much more in-depth discussion that better reflects my views.

I could copy-paste it from over there, but I'm not sure of the thread, and that's not really worthwhile unless you _really_ want to discuss my whole-prophecy analysis of this particular Dark Prophecy.

The short form of my thought on the matter is that the single line, as well as the theme of the entire piece is that of forked prophecy - is the shape of the two worlds that might be, one granting him death beyond dying as foretold by KC, the other to life eternal in service of the DO, depending on which "hand" Rand chooses, perhaps best exemplified by the OP and TP, darkness and light.

Dajoran
01-23-2012, 09:04 AM
At the risk of getting slammed...

I believe there is far more foreshadowing in the books of Nyneave figuring out how to resurrect Rand through her own ability (usually brought on by frustration and anger and hatred at the illness/situatuion) than there is for her recalling a weave she may or may not have seen once.

Think of it this way - if Nyneave resurrects Rand by ripping him from T'A'R... and it is through her own determination and emotion and ability - an idea brought on by the memory of the act that was committed to Birgette. Awesome storytelling - she's already cured Stilling and Madness... this is the next step.

On the otherhand - if it is a case of 'Rand is dead - oh wait... he's a hero. I'll just pop over to T'A'R and use that weave I remember, I'll be back before the world ends!'. That's pants.

Anything that ends with '... but Nyneave couldn't give up... Wait! she thought. That weave that Moghedien used on Birgette Nyneave began to weave the power in the way she remembered...'

C'est terriblé.

sleepinghour
01-23-2012, 11:06 AM
You're attempting to prove a positive (that Nynaeve knows the weave) using a negative (that it has never since been mentioned). There are alternate explanations for all of the points you suggest. It may not have been mentioned because Nynaeve simply didn't see it or because it was done by a method she couldn't see. How realistic is it that in all the time she was emo-ing about Birgitte she never once beat herself up for remembering "that awful weave"? Even if RJ wanted to conceal it, simply not mentioning a key plot point isn't his style. The simplest explanation is she just doesn't know how it was done. There's simply no evidence she does.
Nynaeve also rediscovered balefire on her own in TDR, but never used or thought of it again until ToM. Some people took that as a sign that she didn't remember what she'd done. So I don't think the lack of mentions necessarily means anything.

Dajoran
01-23-2012, 11:17 AM
Nynaeve also rediscovered balefire on her own in TDR, but never used or thought of it again until ToM. Some people took that as a sign that she didn't remember what she'd done. So I don't think the lack of mentions necessarily means anything.

But in your example, that is a weave that Nynaeve used intuitively. She did more than see this weave - she has both seen it and used it.

The argument here is whether a weave was visible to Nynaeve or not.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Another issue: if she had seen what had been done to Birgitte, might she then possibly have tried to use that knowledge when Birgitte was dieing as a result of having been cast out?
Yet there is no indication that I know of that Nynaeve has ever considered a way of reversing what was done. That suggests that she had no clue where to begin with such a project, which of course in turn implies that she did not see how it had been done.

sleepinghour
01-23-2012, 02:04 PM
But in your example, that is a weave that Nynaeve used intuitively. She did more than see this weave - she has both seen it and used it.

The argument here is whether a weave was visible to Nynaeve or not.
I'm aware of that. But Zombie's argument was that if Nynaeve knew Moghedien's weave, surely she would have thought about it, and that's what people have been saying for years about the balefire weave too. Rediscovering a forbidden weave like balefire is pretty remarkable, and Nynaeve initially didn't even know what it was, but she never mentioned it in her POVs even when she saw the balefire rod in use in TSR. Also, the scene did leave some room for doubt whether she had truly been aware of what she was weaving.


Nynaeve gave a startled jump, and the glow around her vanished.
"What . . . what was that?" Elayne asked.
Nynaeve shook her head; she looked as stunned as Elayne sounded. "I don't know. I . . . I was so angry, so afraid, at what they wanted to . . . I do not know what it was."

sleepinghour
01-23-2012, 03:17 PM
However, the glow appearing when Moghedien was merely manipulating TAR might have a few alternative explanations. The first: channelling makes it easier to manipulate TAR strongly without being altered yourself. This is pure conjecture, based on the notion of the oneness as a concentration exercise and a vague idea that the One Power might make someone harder to alter in TAR.

If we're going with the theory that it wasn't a weave, then my guess is that Moghedien did something similar to Nynaeve in her third Accepted test. That is, when the arch Nynaeve was supposed to leave through disappeared, she drew as much Power as she could while forming another arch in her mind. She never actually channeled, but the arch became more solid the more Power she drew.
She tried to picture the arch in her mind, to shape it and form it to the last detail, curve of gleaming metal filled with a glow like snowy fire. It seemed to waver there, in front of her, first there between her and the trees, then not, then there . . .
" . . . I love you . . . "
She drew at saidar, drinking in the flow of the One Power till she thought she would burst. The radiance filling her, shining around her, hurt her own eyes. The heat seemed to consume her. The flickering arch firmed, steadied, stood whole before her. Fire and pain seemed to fill her; her bones felt as if they were burning; her skull seemed a roaring furnace.

I know the Accepted ter'angreal is not the same as T'A'R, but they seem to work in a similar way. In ToM, Egwene suggested that Nynaeve's experience with T'A'R is what allowed her to break the rules in the AS test. Perhaps, as you say, holding the Source (which sharpens the senses) and drawing a substantial amount of Power helps channelers concentrate better and thus gives them more control of T'A'R in certain situations, just like the Void helps swordfighters focus and improve their performance.

This would explain why Moghedien, even while badly injured, drew so much of saidar that "it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her." It's rare that weaves require that much Power. It would also incorporate the theme from ToM that you can do practically anything in T'A'R with the right mindset. It seems only fitting that this be the method used to remove Rand from T'A'R instead of a random weave Nynaeve copied from Moghedien. Also, since she's already done something similar before, Nynaeve should be able to puzzle it out on her own without any help from Moghedien or Lanfear.

AbbeyRoad
01-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Given that it seems like anyone can duplicate any effects of channelers in T'A'R, I don't think it matters whether Moghedien used the Power or not. If I can't channel, and am in T'A'R where the mind is the only limit, I can still Travel, throw fireballs, create/dissipate balefire, etc. Egwene realized this during the TarTar battle in ToM, and started to just imagine columns of flame rather than waste time to make weaves. I interpreted this to indicate that the Power doesn't matter at all in T'A'R; channelers are simply so used to using the Power that they imagine channeling as a mechanism for their concentration. However, I bet Perrin could duplicate the effects of any weave in T'A'R, and probably quicker and more efficiently than almost any channeler.

So, to me, it doesn't matter if Nynaeve saw a "weave" used. What matters is that she saw the event, someone being ripped from T'A'R, and remembers it. She can duplicate the effects later with her mind, contingent on the fact that she now knows it can be done and is stubborn enough to make it a reality based on the logic that 'if Moghedien can do it, she can do it.'

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2012, 05:25 PM
She can duplicate the effects later with her mind, contingent on the fact that she now knows it can be done and is stubborn enough to make it a reality based on the logic that 'if Moghedien can do it, she can do it.'
Of course, there are a couple of details which could be rather important here:

1. Did she notice all relevant effects, so that she actually knows what to duplicate, or did she miss some?
Suppose that for some peculiar reason Moghedien had to stand with one foot on clay and the other on sand, then it isn't likely that Nynaeve noticed that. In that case, Rand might leave TAR without any of his blood, which would mean that he would die (again) in less than a minute. Or some other detail could be important, and have some other unexpected effect if left out.

2. Even if all effects of normal channeling can be duplicated, it is possible that's not the case for TP weaves.
If Moghedien called upon the DO to help her, Nynaeve would fail.

3. It may be that Nynaeve could make Rand disappear from TAR without making him appear in the real world.
That'd be a tad embarrassing, I think.

Would Egwene allow such a desperate and dangerous experiment?
She wasn't too eager when Rand mentioned his "let's break the seals and look what happens" idea, and that is less risky than this one.

AbbeyRoad
01-23-2012, 05:47 PM
Of course, there are a couple of details which could be rather important here:
Wonderful.

1. Did she notice all relevant effects, so that she actually knows what to duplicate, or did she miss some?
Suppose that for some peculiar reason Moghedien had to stand with one foot on clay and the other on sand, then it isn't likely that Nynaeve noticed that. In that case, Rand might leave TAR without any of his blood, which would mean that he would die (again) in less than a minute. Or some other detail could be important, and have some other unexpected effect if left out.
T'A'R manipulation is never given evidence of being procedural. It is mind over matter, in its most literal meaning. When Perrin dissipated balefire, he didn't stick one foot in front of the other, raise his hand three inches above his left thigh, do the first 2 steps of the macarena and begin to recite the second act of Hamlet backwards. He thought "this can't hurt me" and it was gone.

2. Even if all effects of normal channeling can be duplicated, it is possible that's not the case for TP weaves.
If Moghedien called upon the DO to help her, Nynaeve would fail.
Why? This is T'A'R; her only limit is her mind. Also, by "called upon the DO to help her" I assume you mean channeled the TP, which we do not know could not be duplicated in T'A'R. Also, you must have missed my previous post in which I postulate that T'A'R does not require "channeling," but rather "thought." It was not a weave that she would be duplicating, but an effect.

3. It may be that Nynaeve could make Rand disappear from TAR without making him appear in the real world.
That'd be a tad embarrassing, I think.
Does this one have a purpose? Sure it could. She could also turn him into a hot pink hamster by mistake... or by intention, who knows?

Would Egwene allow such a desperate and dangerous experiment?
She wasn't too eager when Rand mentioned his "let's break the seals and look what happens" idea, and that is less risky than this one.
Who says that Nynaeve will be anxiously awaiting Egwene's approval for this?

EDIT:

You seem to be completely missing the point of my previous post. It seems that channelers may believe they are channeling in T'A'R, but they are not. They are willing their thoughts into existence. When Egwene stopped channeling during the TarTar battle and merely started imagining flames and such happening, she was much more effective. When she battled Mesaana and was collared, she didn't weave it out of existence; she willed it away. Perrin can do anything a channeler can do in the world of dreams, and he doesn't have to imagine himself grasping the Power to do it.

I think of it as a crutch much the same as Aes Sedai have in making a throwing motion to throw a fireball. They aren't really throwing a ball of flame, and the motion is completely a concentration technique for their weaving, yet unnecessary to produce the effect of a flaming ball of fire.

Dajoran
01-24-2012, 03:56 AM
I'm aware of that. But Zombie's argument was that if Nynaeve knew Moghedien's weave, surely she would have thought about it, and that's what people have been saying for years about the balefire weave too. Rediscovering a forbidden weave like balefire is pretty remarkable, and Nynaeve initially didn't even know what it was, but she never mentioned it in her POVs even when she saw the balefire rod in use in TSR. Also, the scene did leave some room for doubt whether she had truly been aware of what she was weaving.

Well in reply to Elayne, she's not going to reply and say "Oh that's balefire - take 3 parts air and 16 parts fire... weave it like you're knitting a hat..."

Her future usage of the weave shows that she can recall the weave itself and the effect. Leading into the whole 'Nynaeve only needs to see it once' shtick.

I believe what ZS is arguing is that there is no mention whatsoever concerning what happened to Birgette as being something of the One Power.

phil01
01-24-2012, 04:21 AM
I agree that channelling is just how they convince their minds that something works. Just like Perrins arrows he uses them as something he intrinsically believes in to give shape to his weapon in TAR but basically it is all just a battle of wills and the stonger will wins.

One aspect of the ripping out of TAR is how will they find Rand. As a Hero would he break the precepts like birgitte did and appear before
nynaeve? Would need be great enough to break the precepts to let you find a Hero? If they can't find him it doesn't matter whether Nynaeve can remember the weave/willpower to rip him out.

If he is a hero in TAR and they can find him it seems they gain all their memories back of all their lives so is that how he will remember how to defeat the dark one and why he has to die?

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2012, 04:47 AM
Why? This is T'A'R; her only limit is her mind.
That is true within TAR, and not even entirely true there either.

When Perrin tried healing himself simply by using his mind, that rather failed to work as intended, didn't it?
That would seem to be positive evidence that simply using your mind is not enough to achieve anything you might want to do. Slayer suggested that such healing could be done, but that more would be needed than just using your mind.

So, in a case where quite obviously the health (being alive or death) of a person is involved, and which not only involves TAR but also the ordinary world, why should we assume that something that does not even work well for the first bit (health) would be sufficient to also achieve the second (a transfer to the real world, which is supposed to be not possible anyway)?

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2012, 06:47 AM
I'm aware of that. But Zombie's argument was that if Nynaeve knew Moghedien's weave, surely she would have thought about it, and that's what people have been saying for years about the balefire weave too. Rediscovering a forbidden weave like balefire is pretty remarkable, and Nynaeve initially didn't even know what it was, but she never mentioned it in her POVs even when she saw the balefire rod in use in TSR. Also, the scene did leave some room for doubt whether she had truly been aware of what she was weaving.

I lean more towards the idea that it wasn't a weave of the One Power, rather than specifically that it is a weave she doesn't remember or didn't see, but the main thrust of the point is that it's more likely than not that Nynaeve does not know how to rip someone out of TAR, either because she did not see the weave used, it was a weave of the TP, or it was not a weave. If I am correct and it was not a weave but a TAR effect, then it would be even more unusual if Nynaeve knew how to do it but had not thought about it; she'd know something it took Egwene until TOM to figure out.

I also simply don't think Nynaeve is skilled enough in TAR to pull it off in any case. She's more experienced than the average Dreamwalker, but she can't even enter TAR without the ring, let alone having the experience of an Aiel WO Dreamwalker, Egwene, Perrin, Cyndane/Lanfear, or Moghedien. Additionally, bear in mind that Nynaeve is first and foremost a healer. What was done to Birgitte does not look an awful lot like healing to me. On the other hand, Lanfear has a lot of experience with tearing things apart. So I'd say whether she remembers it or not, Nynaeve al'Meara is far from the best person for the job.

Well in reply to Elayne, she's not going to reply and say "Oh that's balefire - take 3 parts air and 16 parts fire... weave it like you're knitting a hat..."

Her future usage of the weave shows that she can recall the weave itself and the effect. Leading into the whole 'Nynaeve only needs to see it once' shtick.

I believe what ZS is arguing is that there is no mention whatsoever concerning what happened to Birgette as being something of the One Power.

You are correct, that would be one of my arguments if we were sure what was done was an effect of the Power.


One aspect of the ripping out of TAR is how will they find Rand. As a Hero would he break the precepts like birgitte did and appear before
nynaeve? Would need be great enough to break the precepts to let you find a Hero? If they can't find him it doesn't matter whether Nynaeve can remember the weave/willpower to rip him out.

If he is a hero in TAR and they can find him it seems they gain all their memories back of all their lives so is that how he will remember how to defeat the dark one and why he has to die?


There is one surefire way to get a Hero of the Horn to appear, if you're sure they're not currently spun out: blow the Horn of Valere. Quickly, someone ask Brandon if it works in TAR...

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2012, 07:20 AM
There is one surefire way to get a Hero of the Horn to appear, if you're sure they're not currently spun out: blow the Horn of Valere. Quickly, someone ask Brandon if it works in TAR...
Maybe in that case the Heroes who are currently spun out (alive) appear in the Dream. That would finally settle the Valan Luca issue, wouldn't it?

Dajoran
01-24-2012, 07:59 AM
Maybe in that case the Heroes who are currently spun out (alive) appear in the Dream. That would finally settle the Valan Luca issue, wouldn't it?

Is his cape indicative of being a Hero of the Horn?

Or is it his shapely calf?

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2012, 08:03 AM
Is his cape indicative of being a Hero of the Horn?

Or is it his shapely calf?

His cape. Do a search for "Felix Pax".

Dajoran
01-24-2012, 08:44 AM
His cape. Do a search for "Felix Pax".

That was... amazing.

So... ahem... Valan Luca is a HotH born of Luc Mantear and a Ila of the Tuatha'an. He was born in the Ogier Stedding in Tar Valon. His true name is Valon Luc.

Wait... he's the Dragon too?

His credentials for being at least a HotH are that he wears a cape (and tight breeches.)

A credential apparently shared by Ailil Riatin's bloody smoke-grey mare.

You guys are gonna be so annoyed when Brandon reveals he was Felix and he was giving you the true story all this time.

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2012, 09:25 AM
You guys are gonna be so annoyed when Brandon reveals he was Felix and he was giving you the true story all this time.

It has long been suspected.

...I think Gonzo just did a better job of killing this thread than Terez ever could.

Dajoran
01-24-2012, 09:32 AM
It has long been suspected.

...I think Gonzo just did a better job of killing this thread than Terez ever could.

I'm starting to see that invoking Felix seems to be Theoryland's very own Godwin's Law.

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2012, 09:35 AM
I'm starting to see that invoking Felix seems to be Theoryland's very own Godwin's Law.

The longer a thread about a new theory goes on for, the probability of someone comparing it to a Felix theory approaches 1.

AbbeyRoad
01-24-2012, 11:26 PM
So, in a case where quite obviously the health (being alive or death) of a person is involved, and which not only involves TAR but also the ordinary world, why should we assume that something that does not even work well for the first bit (health) would be sufficient to also achieve the second (a transfer to the real world, which is supposed to be not possible anyway)?
I don't know, maybe because we've already seen it happen?

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 07:25 AM
I'd just like to make it absolutely clear what my thinking on Nynaeve is. I believe that, in a real world sense, it is more likely than not that she cannot do whatever Moghedien did to rip Birgitte out of TAR, because there are more ways in which Moghedien could have performed it that Nynaeve can't than there are ways in which Nynaeve could perform it. The ways are:

1. The One Power - Nynaeve could certainly do this, and if it was pure OP, Nynaeve almost certainly remembers. Even if it required phenomenal strength, Nynaeve is as strong as Moghedien.

2. The True Power - Nynaeve cannot possibly do this. The evidence for it being TP is the quote "The night folded in over Birgitte, enveloping her in blackness." Shadow and unlikely darkness effects are seen around many TP wielders, including Rand, Moridin, and possibly Mazrim Taim. However, they are not often seen around victims of TP channelling, so if it was TP, this is a new effect. It's also not particularly close to the method of TP travelling we know of from Ishamael.

3. TAR - Nynaeve might be able to do this, and it's here that we get into a real debate about Nynaeve's skills in the dream. I do not believe Nynaeve is particularly skilled in TAR by the standards of trained Dreamwalkers (but obviously she is phenomenally skilled by the standards of the untrained). I think that if it is pure TAR, or a combination of TAR and OP, Nynaeve will almost certainly need help to do it, or at least some further training. Nynaeve obviously has a relatively good idea of the workings of the dream, but Moghedien is almost certainly stronger in the dream than even Egwene, who Nynaeve doesn't match. Of course, Nynaeve would still have the advantage of having seen the effect performed. Under this heading, the glow of Saidar around Moghedien would have to be for the reasons set out by sleepinghour.

4. Combination of 1 + 3. Nynaeve has the OP strength, but is still subject to the same limitations I stated under 3. It is more likely than not that under this heading she would be able to do it, but might still need help.

5. Combination of 2 + 3. Nynaeve cannot do this because she cannot channel the TP.

6. Combination of 1 + 2 (sorry maths nerds). Nynaeve cannot do this because she cannot channel the TP, but I think it is highly unlikely that someone can channel both OP and TP at the same time; I think the effect would be the two powers cancelling each other out, which might simply stop channelling, or might burn out the channeller. The effect might also be similar to channelling OP at Shayol Ghul.

7. All three. Nynaeve cannot do this because she cannot channel the TP; subject to the same objections as 6 and limitations of 3.

So essentially, out of six possible ways Moggy might have done it, we have two that are totally impossible for Nynaeve, one that is possible, and two that might be possible (with two ideas I'll ignore completely because I think they're looney). That means that in a real world sense there is a higher chance Nynaeve can't do it than that she can.

EDITED TO ADD: That's of course assuming the probability of all possibilities is equal, and that each is mutually exclusive. The second part of that is true, but I don't think the first part is. The difficulty is in applying a value to the probability of each, which would at best be an educated guess.

BUT we are not talking about the real world here. When considering the WOT books you also have to take into account foreshadowing, narrative conventions, and what would be the most satisfying ending. In my theory, I've primarily considered that in relation to Lanfear/Cyndane, who has an unfulfilled prophecy of making Rand serve her before and after death, and an as yet largely unused claim of TAR as her own realm. There are other arguments regarding foreshadowing and symbolism that favour Nynaeve being able to do it.

Terez
01-25-2012, 07:31 AM
Moghedien doesn't use the True Power. RJ said so. You don't need training to manipulate Tel'aran'rhiod so much as you need strength of will, which Nynaeve has plenty of. There's nothing in the Dream she can't do if she believes she can do it, aside from entering without a ter'angreal (she could probably even do that if she wanted it badly enough; the ter'angreal are designed to train people to do it). So again, bad logic.

Dajoran
01-25-2012, 08:17 AM
Moghedien doesn't use the True Power. RJ said so.

Could you point me in the right direction regarding that info. I've been trawling the interview DB for a while and the only mentions of Mog & TP or Mog ripping out Birgitte I can find are:



Q: Why couldn't Moghedien escape the leash with the True Power?

RJ: The a'dam would perceive any Power use and treat it accordingly.

Which could be seen to suggest that Mog could at least have had access to the TP at this point.

Next we have:


When Moghedien ripped out Birgitte from Tel'aran'rhiod she "short-circuited" the Pattern, by bringing in an adult "in the flesh" instead of letting Birgitte join Gaidal Cain the "normal"

Which is pretty useless to the discussion as it is only talking about the effect on the pattern from this act.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 08:54 AM
Moghedien doesn't use the True Power. RJ said so. You don't need training to manipulate Tel'aran'rhiod so much as you need strength of will, which Nynaeve has plenty of. There's nothing in the Dream she can't do if she believes she can do it, aside from entering without a ter'angreal (she could probably even do that if she wanted it badly enough; the ter'angreal are designed to train people to do it). So again, bad logic.

Every character in the series who has a large amount of control over TAR has had some level of advanced training, or can be presumed to have done so; Egwene was trained by the WOs, Perrin was trained by Hopper, the WOs were trained by Wiserer Wise Ones, and presumably Moghedien was trained during the AOL (or why else create training rings?). I don't think you're wrong about strength of will being key, but all the evidence suggests that you do need training to harness that will (like a rookie with a Green Lantern ring, for my fellow comic geeks). Nynaeve has had some training, but not the kind that Egwene, Perrin, and the WOs have had, to bump her up to the level of research student.

Grig
01-25-2012, 09:52 AM
Q: Why couldn't Moghedien escape the leash with the True Power?

RJ: The a'dam would perceive any Power use and treat it accordingly.

Now I has a sad about the Rand/Semi scene where he breaks free with the TP. I thought that felt off, although I couldn't quite think of why.

Dajoran
01-25-2012, 11:39 AM
Now I has a sad about the Rand/Semi scene where he breaks free with the TP. I thought that felt off, although I couldn't quite think of why.

But this again leads us into the differences between the Domination Band and the a'dam.

Two technologies - while similar in purpose - created at two different times for two different reasons are going to have two different sets of limitations.

All the imperfections of such a device seem to rest within the scope of the Domination Band - the enivitable switching of who controls who and the weakness to TP are expected from a device, that we can assume was created in haste, to bring about some nature of control over a Saidin channeler during the breaking.

The a'dam however has had 1000+ years of constant use to perfect any flaws. It doesn't even need to specify whether you are going for the OP or TP - it just prevents you from Channeling solo period.


OR!!!

A simpler theory - these things are created to control the link which the captive has with the One Power - and TP equally.
Rand did not access TP through his 'link' to the TP... it was through Moridin's link.
The DB cannot block bond's so... voilá!


You can has a happy again... it's okay.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 11:43 AM
But this again leads us into the differences between the Domination Band and the a'dam.

Two technologies - while similar in purpose - created at two different times for two different reasons are going to have two different sets of limitations.

All the imperfections of such a device seem to rest within the scope of the Domination Band - the enivitable switching of who controls who and the weakness to TP are expected from a device, that we can assume was created in haste, to bring about some nature of control over a Saidin channeler during the breaking.

The a'dam however has had 1000+ years of constant use to perfect any flaws. It doesn't even need to specify whether you are going for the OP or TP - it just prevents you from Channeling solo period.


OR!!!

A simpler theory - these things are created to control the link which the captive has with the One Power - and TP equally.
Rand did not access TP through his 'link' to the TP... it was through Moridin's link.
The DB cannot block bond's so... voilá!


You can has a happy again... it's okay.

I think Rand's indomitable will perk might have something to do with it, as well.

Which of course leads me to say that Rand has the strongest will of anyone in the series, yet does not appear to have any particular skill with manipulating TAR. He has not had any real training in that area, though.

Terez
01-25-2012, 12:51 PM
Could you point me in the right direction regarding that info.INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/51e23b44396ba622)


QUESTION
Can you use the True Power in the stedding?


ROBERT JORDAN
Ye....er...RAFO. You must be a stone cold fanatic to want to use the True Power. Moghedien is terrified of it. Avoids it.

Of course, she said as much herself in the books.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 01:06 PM
Of course, she said as much herself in the books.

You could make an argument that Moghedien in that one moment was actually "stone cold fanatic" enough in her purpose of harming Birgitte to use it, but it has about the strength of suggesting Nynaeve wouldn't remember the weave.

That leaves three possibilities: One Power, TAR, or both. The question then becomes whether Nynaeve has the ability to manipulate TAR to the extent necessary, if it's TAR or both. If it's pure OP, then Nynaeve can definitely do it. If TAR manipulation is involved, I am not so sure. Nynaeve has no small skill and experience in that area, but Moghedien appears to be phenomenal.

Of course, even if I'm totally wrong in my thinking and Nynaeve does do it all on her own, that leaves the question wide open as to how the prophecy will be fulfilled. One possibility that occurs to me is that Cyndane, rather than the three girls, will bond Rand to save his life; he could certainly then be said to be serving her after death, though perhaps only as much as he can be said to be serving Alanna.

AbbeyRoad
01-25-2012, 02:18 PM
Which of course leads me to say that Rand has the strongest will of anyone in the series, yet does not appear to have any particular skill with manipulating TAR.
You don't think so? He fought Ishamael and Rahvin on even terms, and they were both trained in TAR manipulation (particularly Ishamael). And this was in the third book, before he even knew what the World of Dreams was.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 02:48 PM
You don't think so? He fought Ishamael and Rahvin on even terms, and they were both trained in TAR manipulation (particularly Ishamael). And this was in the third book, before he even knew what the World of Dreams was.

I'm not sure Rahvin necessarily was trained. If he was, it was to nothing like the level of Moghedien. And even if both were highly trained, they still resorted to having OP battles in TAR, when as we now know, there's absolutely no need to. Egwene could win a TAR fight blocked and with both hands tied behind her back. I don't know if you can say that of Rand or Nynaeve.

AbbeyRoad
01-25-2012, 03:00 PM
And even if both were highly trained, they still resorted to having OP battles in TAR, when as we now know, there's absolutely no need to.
Of course Rand did; he didn't know anything about it. When he fought Ishamael he didn't even know that he was in the World of Dreams, much less the rules there. He just acted on pure instinct, managed to counter every trap Ishamael sent his way, and killed Ishamael. In T'A'R. Without knowing what he was doing. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and that his will (and possibly latent memories) certainly helped him manipulate T'A'R with relative proficiency without knowing what he was doing at all. Training certainly helps, but instinct and strength of will are trump cards in T'A'R.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 03:18 PM
Of course Rand did; he didn't know anything about it. When he fought Ishamael he didn't even know that he was in the World of Dreams, much less the rules there. He just acted on pure instinct, managed to counter every trap Ishamael sent his way, and killed Ishamael. In T'A'R. Without knowing what he was doing. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and that his will (and possibly latent memories) certainly helped him manipulate T'A'R with relative proficiency without knowing what he was doing at all. Training certainly helps, but instinct and strength of will are trump cards in T'A'R.

Will perhaps, but instinct doesn't trump training. Egwene has both will and training.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2012, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure Rahvin necessarily was trained. If he was, it was to nothing like the level of Moghedien. And even if both were highly trained, they still resorted to having OP battles in TAR, when as we now know, there's absolutely no need to. Egwene could win a TAR fight blocked and with both hands tied behind her back. I don't know if you can say that of Rand or Nynaeve.
Are we actually sure of that?

It may be that if you are there in the flesh, then stopping your OP weaves wouldn't be as simple as it is when you are Dreaming.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 03:43 PM
Are we actually sure of that?

It may be that if you are there in the flesh, then stopping your OP weaves wouldn't be as simple as it is when you are Dreaming.

I don't think we know much about how being in TAR in the flesh works, and the rules thereof.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2012, 04:22 PM
Egwene could win a TAR fight blocked and with both hands tied behind her back. I don't know if you can say that of Rand or Nynaeve.
Actually, having thought about this a bit, I would say that my guess is that Nynaeve could win under such conditions.

Seeing as that's how she actually did defeat Moghedien, I'm fairly confident that I would have a chance of wining such a bet.

Terez
01-25-2012, 04:30 PM
I don't think we know much about how being in TAR in the flesh works, and the rules thereof.We do know some, based on what Moghedien said, and we can also deduce some of it by logic. Why are they stronger in the flesh, when being there in the flesh also diminishes your ability to manipulate your surroundings? The argument that channeling is, in those instances, quite real seems to explain it.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2012, 04:42 PM
We do know some, based on what Moghedien said, and we can also deduce some of it by logic. Why are they stronger in the flesh, when being there in the flesh also diminishes your ability to manipulate your surroundings? The argument that channeling is, in those instances, quite real seems to explain it.

Which would seem to suggest Rand is not particularly manipulating TAR, but rather using his exceptional channeling skills.

Terez
01-25-2012, 04:51 PM
Which would seem to suggest Rand is not particularly manipulating TAR, but rather using his exceptional channeling skills.Except that, whether or not your channeling is real, you know when you're channeling. Unless you're a wilder with a block, which Rand wasn't. He had been trained by Asmodean at this point; he knew when he was looking at weaves. The more logical argument would be that he was accessing his memories unconsciously, which is rather easy to demonstrate in the Rahvin fight. Less so in the Ishamael fight, but that is the point at which the memories started coming to the surface.

Toss the dice
01-25-2012, 05:50 PM
I'll give my thoughts on this TAR debate.

First, I'm pretty sure the Forsaken as a whole enter TAR in the flesh since that's their only way to get there, as long as they don't have a ter'angreal to do so. Rand as well. They Travel there in the flesh because without ter'angreal it seems to be pretty much the only way they can get there...and it also would be simply quicker. You wouldn't have to lie down and fall half-asleep or more in order to get there. Moghedien may be a Dreamer, but I don't actually remember this being discussed in the books. I recall the time Nynaeve and Moghedien were stalking Rahvin, and Moghedien is scared because Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh and are much stronger than they. This could signify that she herself rarely enters TAR in the flesh (she's a Dreamer or has a ter'angreal), or it may signify nothing, simply that she is afraid because they are much stronger than her, and as a matter of course explains that being there in the flesh (as opposed to at least Nynaeve, if not Moghedien), that being there in the flesh is a much greater advantage since you can channel more strongly.

Now. I think the Forsaken are a bit naive with TAR, as most are, in that they don't realize the rules fully. They focus on channeling there (probably because they are so used to it), and don't fully realize that thought and willpower are ALL you need.

As a side note, I'm sure Rahvin was trained in TAR. I recall that short scene where he watches Elayne inspect the throne room in Caemlyn and notes that she was hazy, and must be using something similar to a "beginner's dream ter'angreal." Which gives the impression that there were formal TAR classes and education in the Age of Legends.

Another side note. I'm fairly certain Perrin is far and away the #1 Dreamer in power. The only ones that may or may not be able to compete would be Aiel Wise Ones (unsure of the extent of their abilities) and definitely Slayer. That big White Tower scene in ToM showed that however much Egwene has improved her TAR abilities, Perrin trumps her by default. Not only has he mastered thought and willpower in TAR, he can't channel so he doesn't have that crutch holding him back. Regardless, she is way up the list for sure, certainly topping any and all Forsaken except for possibly Moghedien.

Terez
01-25-2012, 06:05 PM
I'll give my thoughts on this TAR debate.

First, I'm pretty sure the Forsaken as a whole enter TAR in the flesh since that's their only way to get there, as long as they don't have a ter'angreal to do so.But Demandred said that ter'angreal were used for training, implying that you can be taught to enter without a ter'angreal if you have some Talent. Obviously Ishamael, Lanfear, and Moghedien have that much Talent. And Aran'gar was weakly Talented, such that she could enter the GOI. I asked Brandon about this:
INTERVIEW:Apr 17th, 2011Driving Mr. Sanderson - Terez (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5427)


TEREZ
Demandred mentions that the sleepweavers are used to train beginners in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can any channeler be trained to enter without a ter'angreal (eventually) or is a certain amount of Talent required?


BRANDON SANDERSON
(long silence) I believe...I’ll give you a percentage on these. If I say, “I believe”, it means, “this is my understanding, but, um...”

TEREZ
Right, the asterisk.

BRANDON SANDERSON
There’s an asterisk on it. And most of my understanding is informed by the notes and what I’ve read, but I often get things mixed up. So, I’m going to say on a 75% surety, not everybody can be trained to enter without a ter’angreal eventually, and some talent is required, but there are some who can...there is a middle ground between, for instance, Egwene, and somebody who can’t at all.

TEREZ
Like Aran’gar, who obviously has hardly any talent at all, but she can get into people’s dreams.

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah. So, there is a middle ground. But I don’t believe everybody can.

TEREZ
Have all of the Forsaken been trained to do this or do some of them have to use gateways to get there?

BRANDON SANDERSON
In choosing the Forsaken—and this one is actually, um...I am quoting sources that you don’t have access to, but I do...

TEREZ
Right.

BRANDON SANDERSON
In choosing the Forsaken, the Dark One was careful...um, the very nature of it led to people with great talent in many areas being chosen. They are extraordinary in many areas, and having talents that others do not have, beyond being powerful channelers.

TEREZ
We’re talking about the thirteen that were at Shayol Ghul...

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah. ...This is what led to them being at the top of the heap. That said, I do believe that, among the Forsaken, there are some who had to use gateways to get there...but the majority of the Forsaken are very talented in many areas.
...and it also would be simply quicker. You wouldn't have to lie down and fall half-asleep or more in order to get there.That is also a consideration...but if there are advantages to being there from sleep, then I imagine they would do their best to learn it if possible.
As a side note, I'm sure Rahvin was trained in TAR. I recall that short scene where he watches Elayne inspect the throne room in Caemlyn and notes that she was hazy, and must be using something similar to a "beginner's dream ter'angreal." Which gives the impression that there were formal TAR classes and education in the Age of Legends.That was Demandred.

Toss the dice
01-25-2012, 08:06 PM
Thanks Terez.

My bad, yeah it was Demandred, not Rahvin.

I have always looked at Demandred's pov to himself as TAR training with the beginner ter'angreals in order to get better in TAR, and it also might possibly be marginally safer to use them to train beginning students because they aren't quite as much there. I DIDN'T take it as a way to train beginning TAR students (because the beginning ter'angreal are their only way there), in order to both train them in TAR itself and eventually learn to get their on their own without the aid of a ter'angreal. I hadn't even thought or heard of that before.

Interesting.

Terez
01-25-2012, 08:19 PM
At one time, I assumed that the ter'angreal that require channeling were used to wean channelers off their dependence on the Power, but after some time I decided it was more likely that RJ was hinting at the other. Egwene is talented, and weaned herself off the non-channeling ter'angreal very quickly. My guess is that it takes most people a lot longer.

fionwe1987
01-25-2012, 08:58 PM
About Nynaeve not seeing weaves:

As I pointed out before, she doesn't mention seeing any weaves in all of that scene. Her shield, the weaves of Air that contorted her... nothing. So her lack of seeing weaves here is proof of exactly nothing.

As for the theory... don't you think Nynaeve would go to Egwene before she goes to Lanfear? Egwene has shown before that she can figure out complex stuff from a description. Maybe she teaches Nynaeve how, or does it herself...

On that note... what if Egwene is the Daughter of the Night in the Dark Prophesy? I know it sounds cazy, but let's see:

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
Obviously, this could refer to Lanfear being free again. But Egwene could also be called Daughter of the Night. Given Rand's symbolism as Lord of the Morning, and Egwene being set up as his parallel/female half, her being Daughter of the Night makes sense, added to which are her extensive abilities in TAR...

The ancient war, she yet fights.
This could refer to the ancient war against the Shadow, which she will certainly be fighting.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Egwene's new lover is Gawyn, who serves her, and there is some chance of his dying. Maybe he serves her still after dying too, by leaving something behind.

Who shall stand against her coming?
If TAR is involved in the final sealing of the Bore, this could refer to the Shadow's defense against Egwene, which may include Cyndane and Moghedien.

The Shining Walls shall kneel.
This part has happened. The Shining Walls did kneel before Egwene. And this makes more sense as a part of this prophesy than the Sisters kneeling to Rand somehow being a part of a prophesy on Lanfear.

This, and the fact that Cyndane is no longer "Daughter of the Night" (her name has changed, and she even thinks of herself as Cyndane), are why I have some doubt about who the Prophesy refers to.

After all, there is no rule that Dark Prophesies refer to Darkfriends, and Light Prophesy refer to Light-Siders, right?

Crazy, I know, but thoughts?

Terez
01-25-2012, 09:13 PM
Egwene's new lover is Gawyn, who serves her, and there is some chance of his dying. Maybe he serves her still after dying too, by leaving something behind.Or maybe he comes back to life when Rand is balefired. :) I like this theory, even though it seems like a pretty big leap.

finnssss
01-25-2012, 09:21 PM
Or maybe he comes back to life when Rand is balefired. :) I like this theory, even though it seems like a pretty big leap.

Or he puts on all 3 of the Bloodknife rings at once and literally becomes a dead man serving.

fionwe1987
01-25-2012, 09:23 PM
Or maybe he comes back to life when Rand is balefired. :) I like this theory, even though it seems like a pretty big leap.
I like both the suggested ideas for this.

I know it is an insane leap, but TAR reference with a mention of the Shining Walls kneeling reads Egwene to me, not Lanfear, especially now that Lanfear is no more.

sleepinghour
01-26-2012, 03:31 AM
On that note... what if Egwene is the Daughter of the Night in the Dark Prophesy?

Not saying that I necessarily buy this theory, but in a weird way, it actually makes sense and would be quite a clever ruse by RJ. Since she'd gone to visit Fain that day, Egwene was in the dungeon where the Dark Prophecy was written. She and Mat were lying unconscious in front of Fain's cell, not far from where Rand saw the Trolloc writing on the walls. So the smoking gun would have been in front of us all along.

That said, there have always been strong parallels between Lanfear and Egwene (they're both Rand's ex-girlfriend, T'A'R experts etc), so the prophecy could still refer to Lanfear, only RJ made it so it would fit Egwene as well.


The ancient war, she yet fights.
This could refer to the ancient war against the Shadow, which she will certainly be fighting.

Or the conflict between Latra and LTT.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 04:08 AM
Of course, she said as much herself in the books.

Thanks!

So RJ didn't say she doesn't use it - just avoids it out of fear.

Logic dictates that she would only use the TP in a situation where another emotion is overriding her fear - like say - getting revenge for a 3000+ year old act. This is of course assuming that the method of her revenge would be TP based. But as long as it isn't out of the question.



Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
Obviously, this could refer to Lanfear being free again. But Egwene could also be called Daughter of the Night. Given Rand's symbolism as Lord of the Morning, and Egwene being set up as his parallel/female half, her being Daughter of the Night makes sense, added to which are her extensive abilities in TAR...

For this to fully take hold you would need to explain the "she walks again" portion of the prophecy. This paints a picture of the return of someone well known before.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2012, 04:14 AM
For this to fully take hold you would need to explain the "she walks again" portion of the prophecy. This paints a picture of the return of someone well known before.
Maybe somebody will break Egwene's legs?
It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for this cause.

Terez
01-26-2012, 04:18 AM
Or he puts on all 3 of the Bloodknife rings at once and literally becomes a dead man serving.I don't know that there is any real reason to believe that it's possible to multiply the effects of a Bloodring. I still think Galad will use one...just don't know in what context, since we know that he's not going to have a swordfight with Rand. As for who will use the other...Gareth Bryne seems likely. It's very Arthurian.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 04:22 AM
Maybe somebody will break Egwene's legs?
It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for this cause.

Haha! :D

Luckly, if Gawyn proves to be any more inept than he already is, he'll break her legs while trying to protect her from a biteme.

Terez
01-26-2012, 04:33 AM
OMFG. It's Tuon! Daughter of the Night? Moons and stars? Daughter of the Nine moons? Her new lover? LOL. The Shining Walls shall kneel!!

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2012, 04:40 AM
OMFG. It's Tuon! Daughter of the Night? Moons and stars? Daughter of the Nine moons? Her new lover? LOL. The Shining Walls shall kneel!!
And Gawyn will break Egwene's legs.

Edited to add:
Tuon is first mentioned in the same book that this prophecy appears in.

finnssss
01-26-2012, 04:43 AM
I don't know that there is any real reason to believe that it's possible to multiply the effects of a Bloodring.

True enough but the premise of Gawyn putting on one of the rings and becoming a dead man walking/serving is a definite possibility.
If the DP is actually referring to Egwene of course ;)

Terez
01-26-2012, 04:45 AM
Tuon is first mentioned in the same book that this prophecy appears in.The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.


Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.


Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood ever shall be.

Terez
01-26-2012, 04:51 AM
True enough but the premise of Gawyn putting on one of the rings and becoming a dead man walking/serving is a definite possibility.Which has nothing to do with what I said, does it?

Terez
01-26-2012, 04:52 AM
Felix thinks my Tuon theory is loony. He says that Nynaeve is the Daughter of the Night.

PS - The nine moons were also first mentioned in TGH.

finnssss
01-26-2012, 04:56 AM
Which has nothing to do with what I said, does it?

And what does Galad and Gareth wearing rings have to do with the actual topic or with what I said for that matter?

Guess we're even eh and leave it at that ;)

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 04:59 AM
OMFG. It's Tuon! Daughter of the Night? Moons and stars? Daughter of the Nine moons? Her new lover? LOL. The Shining Walls shall kneel!!

I had thought of that, but dismissed it as madness. :p

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:01 AM
I had thought of that, but dismissed it as madness. :pWell, no one ever said you were any good at this.

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:03 AM
And what does Galad and Gareth wearing rings have to do with the actual topic or with what I said for that matter?You said that Gawyn would wear 3 Bloodrings at once. That's what I was addressing. I really shouldn't have to spell that out, you know.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 05:06 AM
Well, no one ever said you were any good at this.

There is the tiny sticking point that "Lanfear" actually translates as "Daughter of the Night", and that she started walking again around the time the prophecy was written. I like all of the alternate theories, but they're essentially ignoring the facts.

I mean, if you want to ignore the facts, then Rand is a relatively good candidate.

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:15 AM
There is the tiny sticking point that "Lanfear" actually translates as "Daughter of the Night", and that she started walking again around the time the prophecy was written. I like all of the alternate theories, but they're essentially ignoring the facts.No, they're not. It doesn't matter what Lanfear translates to and the fact that that one bit fits, because it fits Tuon too, and more importantly, she fits the rest of the prophecy, and Lanfear doesn't.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 05:38 AM
No, they're not. It doesn't matter what Lanfear translates to and the fact that that one bit fits, because it fits Tuon too, and more importantly, she fits the rest of the prophecy, and Lanfear doesn't.

Mat has already fulfilled his own "die and live again" prophecy, and we know - from the fact that the outriggers were to be written about him - that he's not going to die in any permanent sense in AMOL. He cannot be said to have been serving Tuon in any meaningful sense prior to his meeting her, and it is questionable whether he is serving her after. Tuon was not seeking Mat, but actually nervous and worried about meeting him. Tuon does not love Mat (though Mat loves Tuon, and that will probably change), nor is she seeking love in her marriage to him. Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, not the Daughter of the Night. "Nine Moons" refers to nine months, the time taken for the Empress to conceive and birth an heir, not a single night. There is as much chance of nine moons appearing in a single night as there is of two dawns on the same day.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 05:45 AM
You say Tuon fits the rest of the prophecy?

Let's look:

“Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

As you say, it doesn't matter that this actually says 'Lanfear, she walks again' because moons are in the night as well... but did Gawyn break her legs too?

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Which ancient war does Tuon fight in?

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Could indeed mean Mat - but who is Tuon's old lover as the quote implies - also, is Mat coming up for another death?

Who shall stand against her coming? The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Indeed a reference to Aes Sedai kneeling - can't get around this one as she never really worked towards the White Tower or with the BA - so Tuon fits here.

Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.”

Ah, the Seanchan blood I see. But that means that Rand...

“The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays? Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.”

... is Blood also?


Remember that a Fade was commanded to scribble this down with his Red Crayon... to make this relevant to Tuon we need more than 'she fits'. What relevance does Tuon have to the Dark that she would be included in this prophecy? It would need to be important for her to become the new Lanfear.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2012, 05:48 AM
There is as much chance of nine moons appearing in a single night as there is of two dawns on the same day.
That's all right, then, isn't it?
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the
rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men
from the Shadow."

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 05:49 AM
That's all right, then, isn't it?

Yeah, that definitely wasn't intentional or anything, Gonzo. :rolleyes:

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:55 AM
You guys have no imagination whatsoever. As soon as the idea occurred to me, I came up with several explanations for every objection raised. Use your brains.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 05:57 AM
You guys have no imagination whatsoever. As soon as the idea occurred to me, I came up with several explanations for every objection raised. Use your brains.

It seems to take a lot of imagination to make that work.

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:59 AM
Less imagination than it takes to make Lanfear work.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2012, 06:00 AM
As you say, it doesn't matter that this actually says 'Lanfear, she walks again' because moons are in the night as well... but did Gawyn break her legs too?
Egwene would be enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Which ancient war does Tuon fight in?
Take your pick.
Hawkwing's war of conquest.
Hawkwing's war against Tar Valon.
Hawkwing's war against the Shadow.


Could indeed mean Mat - but who is Tuon's old lover as the quote implies - also, is Mat coming up for another death?
Valan Luca. And Mat hadn't died, yet, when this prophecy was published.

Terez
01-26-2012, 06:01 AM
Valan Luca.Selucia.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 06:07 AM
Daughter of the night, she walks again.

Mierin took the name "Lanfear" when she went over to the Shadow. It means "Daughter of the Night". She has just been freed from her prison within the bore, and thus is walking again.

The ancient war, she yet fights

The war between Light and Dark, or rather the War of the Power.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Unfulfilled. The new lover is likely to be Rand, and it is likely he will end up serving her after he dies.

Who shall stand against her coming? The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Moiraine stood against her coming, yet was also defeated and captured herself in the process. As an Aes Sedai of Tar Valon, Moiraine represents the Shining Walls, and was brought low by her standing against Lanfear. Also note that Lanfear was able to infiltrate Tar Valon in the guise of both Silvie and Else Grinwell, so the Shining Walls could literally have been made to kneel by that. Also, while the context obviously informs, the single statement "The Shining Walls shall kneel." stands alone. The Shining Walls have knelt both to Rand and to Egwene, and may even kneel to the Seanchan before they're done, but that doesn't have to say anything about the identity of the Daughter of the Night. The part of the prophecy may not even be original; it might just be taken from the Karaethon Cycle which has similar lines about AS kneeling, designed to make the AS present in Fal Dara more uneasy.

Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Trolloc graffiti, designed to make the prophecy more foreboding, with no special meaning.

One of the difficulties with this prophecy is that the AS are right to an extent when they say it's just designed to frighten; why else scribble it on the wall?

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 06:08 AM
Egwene would be enough, as far as I'm concerned.

May as well make use of him while he's in the femur shattering mood, I say.

Take your pick.
Hawkwing's war of conquest.
Hawkwing's war against Tar Valon.
Hawkwing's war against the Shadow.

She's just about entering all of these wars - she isn't really still fighting them from long ago as the prophecy implies.

Especially not against the Shadow - Trollocs are myths!

Valan Luca. And Mat hadn't died, yet, when this prophecy was published.

But he died before he served Tuon?

Ah Valan Luca. The Cape that claimed 1000 women... I have to admit... I tremble a bit when I read about that cape... and those tight...

ahem.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 06:13 AM
But he died before he served Tuon?

Ah Valan Luca. The Cape that claimed 1000 women... I have to admit... I tremble a bit when I read about that cape... and those tight...

ahem.

You know, words cannot express how much I despise Valan Luca, and found nearly all of the sections of the books in which he and his slow-moving, plot-dragging circus were involved almost intolerably dull. I find the level of focus now granted to him - as a result of some entertaining but looney theories - both amusing and somewhat grating, given that he is the single character I would most like to see die horribly. At Shayol Ghul. Saving the world.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 06:15 AM
You know, words cannot express how much I despise Valan Luca, and found nearly all of the sections of the books in which he and his slow-moving, plot-dragging circus were involved almost intolerably dull. I find the level of focus now granted to him - as a result of some entertaining but looney theories - both amusing and somewhat grating, given that he is the single character I would most like to see die horribly. At Shayol Ghul. Saving the world.

Twice dawns the day his theatrical blood is shed.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 06:27 AM
Twice dawns the day his theatrical blood is shed.

New theory on the twice dawning day: they do it with mirrors.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 06:33 AM
New theory on the twice dawning day: they do it with mirrors.

And illuminators - Aludra's fireworks for the first dawn!

sleepinghour
01-26-2012, 06:40 AM
You know, words cannot express how much I despise Valan Luca, and found nearly all of the sections of the books in which he and his slow-moving, plot-dragging circus were involved almost intolerably dull. I find the level of focus now granted to him - as a result of some entertaining but looney theories - both amusing and somewhat grating, given that he is the single character I would most like to see die horribly. At Shayol Ghul. Saving the world.

You say that like it hasn't already been foreshadowed for years! :rolleyes: "Red on black" undoubtedly refers to Luca's red cape fluttering over the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

Toss the dice
01-26-2012, 02:20 PM
You know, words cannot express how much I despise Valan Luca, and found nearly all of the sections of the books in which he and his slow-moving, plot-dragging circus were involved almost intolerably dull. I find the level of focus now granted to him - as a result of some entertaining but looney theories - both amusing and somewhat grating, given that he is the single character I would most like to see die horribly. At Shayol Ghul. Saving the world.

I've always thought some of the funniest parts of the series involved Valan Luca, especially the ones with Mat.

- Luca's spiel after the town sinks into the ground. Some of the notable funny parts include how he looks at the children and Mat knows he is visualizing them as hungry; how Luca claims he will hire ships to carry them all to Tar Valon; how he makes Lugard sound grand and Mat's pov concerning what he's heard about the city.

-Luca's rant after meeting with the town fathers of that one village. How he complains to Mat that country folk are all thieves and scoundrels.

-Luca grabbing two horse handlers and setting off after Nynaeve when he thinks someone took her.

-Luca's interaction with the Seanchan Bannerman.

-Mat's opinion on Luca's cape and wagon.

-Luca's loony dance when he learns they can leave when Merrilin returns.

-Luca throwing Nynaeve's "bloody penny" after her on the road. It can lie there until Tarmon Gaidon for all he cares.

-How Luca would help kidnap the Dark One for gold. And he probably would.

-That Luca never talked about what he would do when he retired. Because he would keep doing it until he fell over dead in the middle of a show, with as many people in attendance as possible.

-Luca's overall flair and flourishes, his manner and demeanor. Either he's so fake its actually funny, or he's dead serious and that makes it okay. He's a showman, either way.

There's quite a few more. It's not that I just love Valan Luca, maybe it's more that I like the people he interacts with in the books, and/or I like the situation. He does bring some comedy relief to the table, though.

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 02:27 PM
I am just utterly unmoved by any of it. maybe it's because I was in the performing arts mysekf, and the people like Luca are generally arseholes ratger than likeable, bumbling fools. I always found Mat a far greater source of humour.

Lupusdeusest
01-26-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm surprised noone has suggested his burned-off hand wasn't actually siphoned into a box of lube later, for someone to randomly touch and regrow a second Rand from.
Quick! Someone chop off his other hand so the girls don't have to share!

final death
02-17-2012, 11:50 PM
I don't think that dark prophecies need necessarily come true in this age or even this turning. It is possible we are looking at the dark prophecies in to short a term.

Terez
02-18-2012, 12:44 AM
I don't think that dark prophecies need necessarily come true in this age or even this turning.Brandon says that they are valid, and I really, really doubt they'd stretch the meaning of 'is' that far.