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Davian93
01-25-2012, 08:28 AM
Okay, this is going to be a bit vague as I'm busy and I have a thought tickling the back of my mind that I don't want to forget...what's up with the red/black color theme between Rand, Moridin, Taim and Padan Fain?

The only common theme is Moridin. Moridin "distilled" Fain, Moridin may have had something to do with Aridhol's fall in the first place as he was active during the Trolloc Wars, Moridin is connect to Rand in some fashion, Moridin is likely giving Taim orders.

So, what's up with the significance? There was an interesting theory that was put out when the prologue for ToM first came out but it focused on other aspects of it.

So, let's crowdsource this one...thoughts?

fdsaf3
01-25-2012, 08:41 AM
An obvious parallel that I feel kind of stupid even bringing up is that there are so many Black Ajah sisters who were pretending to be Red. I know that there weren't proportionally more Red women who were black than in other Ajahs (I've heard it said that the numbers are relatively even across all 7), but there were more Reds simply because the Red was the biggest Ajah.

Now that we have Red sisters bonding men who can channel (i.e. the Black Tower), that's another red-black connection.

If we stretch the connection, could we draw anything from Fain's prophesy written on the walls of the prison in blood on the walls of Fal Dara in The Great Hunt? That's quite a literal red-black connection.

Also, from the prophesy about how the Dragon's blood will stain the black rock of Shayol Ghul.

I'm just trying to think of as many red-black connections as I can. I'm sure there are tons more that I'm missing.

WinespringBrother
01-25-2012, 08:43 AM
Red and Black are fitting colors for those 4 as well as others, as they symbolize death and war/destruction.

As for Ishamael being behind the destruction of Aridhol, that is an interesting if unproven hypothesis. He is certainly responsible in an indirect way, given that Aridhol fell due to the methods Mordeth stole from the Shadow to combat it.

Lord of Chaos CH: 21 - To Shadar Logoth
Aridhol had been a great capital in the days of the Trolloc Wars, an ally of Manetheren and the rest of the Ten Nations. When those wars had lasted long enough to dwarf the War of the Hundred Years, when it seemed the Shadow was everywhere victorious and every victory of the Light did no more than buy time, a man named Mordeth became a councilor in Aridhol, and counseled the rule that to win, to survive, Aridhol must be harder than the Shadow, more cruel than the Shadow, less trusting. Slowly they made it so, until in the end, Aridhol became, if not blacker than the Shadow, as black. With war still raging against the Trollocs, Aridhol finally turned in on itself, turned on itself, consumed itself.

Dajoran
01-25-2012, 08:46 AM
Maybe they all secretly play for County Down GAA? [/irish-inside-joke]

But in all seriousness, I can't recall correctly - but wasn't the Fisher King piece in the game Sha'rah also black with drops of blood?

Heinz
01-25-2012, 08:58 AM
Perhaps RJ really liked checkers?

Previous discussions have looked at the red/black connection with Moridin and Taim, either trying to build a case for Taimidin (Or Moritaim? Shot down in any case.), or figuring Moridin is Taim's teacher and the red and black color scheme is a type of livery.

But then, there's the 'red on black, his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' line that also raises interest. How does the color scheme link to prophecy? Does its presence signal some code with Moridin and what Rand has to do? We know the obvious, that they both will be main players in the Last Battle, but the details are what everyone tries to piece together of course.

There are so many references to color schemes, it is hard to tell which are keys and which are just mental imagery. Perhaps we'll find out about a link with these colors in AMoL. And perhaps they're just an interesting take on color schemes, like noticing that in the Tower divide, Red was generally associated as 'loyalist Aes Sedai' while Blue were 'rebels' (American Revolution). It might not really mean anything.

Personally, while I could see a link between Moridin and Taim, with the colors being a theme, I'd be less inclined to see a link with Fain. He's been a loose cannon for so long, and was from Ishy's days to start with, not Moridin's. I don't recall the color scheme being present for Ishy as well.

WinespringBrother
01-25-2012, 12:50 PM
Did a search on red and black and found some interesting matches:

Mordeth's garb
Be'lal's garb
Rand's garb

The lake at Shayol Ghul
The floor tiles in the Stone of Tear
The cave on Dragonmount

Eye of the World CH: 19 - Shadow's Waiting
There was something odd about him, Rand thought, but he could not pick out what it was, exactly. Mordeth was a sleek, somewhat overfed man, with drooping eyelids that made him seem to be hiding behind something and staring. Short, and completely bald, he walked as if he were taller than any of them. His clothes were certainly like nothing Rand had ever seen before, either. Tight black breeches and soft red boots with the tops turned down at his ankles. A long, red vest thickly embroidered in gold, and a snowy white shirt with wide sleeves, the points of his cuffs hanging almost to his knees. Certainly not the kind of clothes in which to run through a ruined city in search of treasure. But it was not that which made him seem strange, either.

Dragon Reborn CH: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy
"Take it, Lews Therin. Take it, Kinslayer." He spun to face the voice. The tall man with close-cropped white hair who stepped from the shadows among the columns was familiar to him. Rand had no idea who he was, this fellow in a red silk coat with black stripes down its puffy sleeves and black breeches tucked into elaborately silver-worked boots. He did not know the man, but he had seen him in his dreams. "You put them in a cage," he said. "Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne. In my dreams. You kept putting them in a cage, and hurting them."

Towers of Midnight CH: 30 - Men Dream Here
Lightning flashed suddenly, thunder sounding for the first time since he'd begun climbing. That lightning began to arc in a dome around the top of the mountain. It threw light across Rand's face. That hard, impassive face, like stone itself. Where had its curves gone? When had Rand gained so many lines and angles? And those eyes, they seemed made of marble! Rand wore a coat of black and red. Fine and ornamented, with a sword at his waist. The winds didn't affect Rand's clothes. Those fell unnaturally still, as if he really were just a statue. Carved from stone. The only thing that moved was his dark red hair, blowing in the wind, thrown and spun.

Lord of Chaos CH: Prologue - The First Message
The tunnel opened out suddenly onto a wide ledge overlooking a lake of molten stone, red mottled with black, where man-high flames danced, died and rose again. There was no roof, only a great hole rising through the mountain to a sky that was not the sky of Thakan'dar. It made that of Thakan'dar look normal, with its wildly striated clouds streaking by as though driven by the greatest winds the world had ever seen. This, men called the Pit of Doom, and few knew how well they had named it.

The Gathering Storm CH: 47 - The One He Lost
There, Lews Therin said. We stood there. Rand frowned. What was the madman babbling about? He glanced around. The wide hallway's floor was tiled in red and black patterns. A few tapestries fluttered on the walls. With shock, Rand realized that several of them depicted him, taking the Stone, holding Callandor, killing Trollocs. Fighting the Seanchan wasn't our first failure, Lews Therin whispered. No, our first failure happened here. In this hallway.

The Gathering Storm CH: 50 - Veins of Gold
Dragonmount's broken, open mouth lay several hundred feet beneath him, to the left. The scents of ash and sulphur were pungent, even at this distance. The maw was black with ash and red from molten rock and blazing fires. He still held to the Source. He didn't dare let go. This last time he'd seized it had been the worst he could remember, and he feared that the sickness would overpower him if he tried again. He had been here for hours. And yet he did not feel tired. He stared at the ter'angreal. Thinking. What was he? What was the Dragon Reborn? A symbol? A sacrifice? A sword, meant to destroy? A sheltering hand, meant to protect? A puppet, playing a part over and over again?

Zombie Sammael
01-26-2012, 05:11 AM
The sun as it rises in the morning is red, while the night sky is black. Rand al'Thor is the Lord of the Morning, while the Dark One is the Shepherd of the Night. Further, the sky often appears red at dawn. "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed."

Terez
01-26-2012, 05:25 AM
ERNIE (11 AUGUST 2010) (http://twitter.com/GoodDogSpike/status/20909954836)What is your favorite color?
BRANDON SANDERSON (11 AUGUST 2010) (http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/20922517811)
Oh, it depends. I do like deep reds and blacks a lot.
.

Dajoran
01-26-2012, 06:01 AM
ERNIE (11 AUGUST 2010)
What is your favorite color?
BRANDON SANDERSON (11 AUGUST 2010)

Oh, it depends. I do like deep reds and blacks a lot.

Possibly what caused the costume change from his previous colour of 'Unrelieved Black'.

Cortar
01-26-2012, 04:03 PM
Actually, the "Red and Black" is actually a distraction from the true colors that represent these characters: black and yellow, black and yellow black and yellow, black and yellow, uh huh, you know how it is, black and yellow, black and yellow

Terez
01-26-2012, 06:21 PM
Possibly what caused the costume change from his previous colour of 'Unrelieved Black'.Whose?

Lupusdeusest
01-26-2012, 08:59 PM
All we need are some red and black bosoms and we'd be all set!

Davian93
01-26-2012, 09:02 PM
Whose?

So T, do you have any thoughts on the Fain Red and Black color connection?

Dajoran
01-27-2012, 03:56 AM
Whose?

Moridin - both times his clothes are described they are done so as 'Unrelieved Black' - but I am realising now we are not talking about his wardrobe - only his decór.

Terez
01-27-2012, 04:26 AM
So T, do you have any thoughts on the Fain Red and Black color connection?I believe that Fain's thoughts about the colors were inspired by the prophecies. I also believe that Moridin's love for the colors has much to do with the prophecies, though his outright obsession with them suggests there is something a little more going on. With Fain, not so much.Moridin - both times his clothes are described they are done so as 'Unrelieved Black' - but I am realising now we are not talking about his wardrobe - only his decór.
And Moghedien's and Cyndane's wardrobes. And Rand's. And Taim's.

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2012, 04:31 AM
And Moghedien's and Cyndane's wardrobes.
I would count those wardrobes as part of Moridin's décor. Based on the hints we get, it seems that neither of those women would've worn those colors if they had had a choice about it.

Terez
01-27-2012, 04:35 AM
That was rather the point. It's his livery.

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2012, 05:27 AM
Maybe all that red and black stuff is a result of Taim's influence on Moridin. Taim, of course, got it from the Prophecies.

Dajoran
01-27-2012, 05:55 AM
I believe that Fain's thoughts about the colors were inspired by the prophecies. I also believe that Moridin's love for the colors has much to do with the prophecies, though his outright obsession with them suggests there is something a little more going on.

It almost comes across like a thematic identifiction point concerning who is under Moridin's control/influence. It's like he is decorating his own Sha'rah pieces in this Pattern sized game he is playing.

I would not be surprised if Moridin was in some way or form influencing the choices made by Fain - he may be a stray piece on the board, but he is still in essence a Hound. Through direct and indirect means he could, theoretically, be still on a leash.

Which then leads me to this - as we still don't know just how much Moridin is in control of:


Perhaps the Fisher did come from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, the shadow of a shadow. It did not matter. He realized he was laughing, and made no effort to stop. On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now.... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board.

Mort
01-27-2012, 06:53 AM
Maybe RJ and Brandon just really like black and red?

I must admit black and yellow are fine colors too, although I prefer the colors blue and white more myself.

Actually, the "Red and Black" is actually a distraction from the true colors that represent these characters: black and yellow, black and yellow black and yellow, black and yellow, uh huh, you know how it is, black and yellow, black and yellow

Yeah ah ha, you know what it is
everything I do, I do it big
Yeah ah ha, screaming thats nothin
when I pulled out of the lot, thats stuntin

hear them haters talk but there’s nothing you can tell em
just made a million, got another million on my schedule
no love for em n-gga breaking hearts
no keys, push the start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UePtoxDhJSw&ob=av2e

fdsaf3
01-27-2012, 07:49 AM
I have a tough time differentiating between a motif and something with more meaning. Case in point: in The Great Hunt, Rand is given a new wardrobe by Moiraine. Part of that wardrobe are two new shirts, finer than anything he had worn on feast days back in the Two Rivers. If memory serves correctly, those shirts are red and black.

Now, is this just a coincidence? Is it a motif RJ used throughout the series? Or is it indicative of a larger pattern which we need to hash out?

I will admit to being uncertain.

Thoughts?

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2012, 09:16 AM
Part of that wardrobe are two new shirts, finer than anything he had worn on feast days back in the Two Rivers. If memory serves correctly, those shirts are red and black.
...
Thoughts?
My thought, upon rereading that bit, is that your memory serves you incorrectly.
Rand got three dozen shirts upon that occasion, at least one of which (the one he donned then) was white.

There might be two red and black shirts in that load as well, but if so, that doesn't seem to be meant to start a pattern.

Dajoran
01-27-2012, 09:32 AM
My thought, upon rereading that bit, is that your memory serves you incorrectly.
Rand got three dozen shirts upon that occasion, at least one of which (the one he donned then) was white.

There might be two red and black shirts in that load as well, but if so, that doesn't seem to be meant to start a pattern.

Maybe you are wrong. Maybe this was the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don.

He had a choice between a White and Black shirt. He chose White.

He will get the idea of how to seal the bore from Thom's cloak.

...

...

Or he will use Luca's cape.

fdsaf3
01-27-2012, 09:47 AM
My thought, upon rereading that bit, is that your memory serves you incorrectly.
Rand got three dozen shirts upon that occasion, at least one of which (the one he donned then) was white.

There might be two red and black shirts in that load as well, but if so, that doesn't seem to be meant to start a pattern.

My apologies, I wasn't specific enough.

Let me rephrase:

On Rand's journey to catch Fain, he brought a few shirts. Maybe that's where I got the red/black thought from.

Or maybe I'm just barking mad and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'll let you decide...

And I'm going to reread this section of TGH when I get home. :p

Zombie Sammael
01-27-2012, 10:10 AM
Maybe you are wrong. Maybe this was the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don.

He had a choice between a White and Black shirt. He chose White.

He will get the idea of how to seal the bore from Thom's cloak.

...

...

Or he will use Luca's cape.

White and gold are colours normally associated with the light. It's not quite as strong as red & black and the Shadow, but it is there if you're looking for it.

Great Lord of the Dark
01-27-2012, 02:34 PM
I don't know why Moridin chose red and black, but wearing those colours to work shines my day.

Oden
01-27-2012, 03:44 PM
I don't know why Moridin chose red and black, but wearing those colours to work shines my day.

I thought it was in honor of the red lake (Pit of Doom) and the black rocks (Shayol Ghul) of your residence

fdsaf3
01-31-2012, 01:29 AM
Shoot, I just gave my copy of Crown of Swords to my brother and forgot to write out the quote I had in mind. Drat.

Anyway, there's another reference in ACoS to red and black. In the section where Birgitte is talking to Mat about him recognizing her after she's ripped out, Birgitte refers to two Heroes (I think they're brother and sister). One wears a black mask and the other wears a red one. Their coming signals the end of an Age, if I remember right.

My assumption/thought is that this ties in with the "one hand shelters, one hand slays" references throughout the series.

Terez
01-31-2012, 03:02 AM
That would be Calian and Shivan, presumed to be currently residing in Elayne's womb.