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The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:05 PM
So I'm back (again/for real/100%). To celebrate, I'm posting the posts that I wrote but apparently never submitted and were just saved by notetab light.

Most are GD material, but there may be a few non wot. No clue what threads these were intended for, so you can have fun guessing or just ignore them all.

Here we go:

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:05 PM
You know while I was writing out my theories for submission I found that I kept arguing the same points over and over again, so I ended up putting a collection of the key points that summarize my understanding of the WoT metaphysics in a single file and then referred back to it. I was thinking about submitting it, but it's not a theory and it would make a lousy thread. However, using the points to deconstruct an issue does seem to effectively create a summary of my stance on it. Which is cool, I can streamline my thinking. For instance, balefiring the Dark One seems to be related to dividing by zero, and light refraction. And, it seems to support the possibilies of both my preferred theory that this is the Very Last Battle, and the New World theory Felix is running with, or at least my adaptation of it.

It was funny, one of those 'you would have had to have been here for the last five or ten years' kind of things I guess.
Well, I've been here for nearly eight (lurking) and I didn't get it. But, probably one important point that I had missed completely is:
And it could lend itself to be interpreted as the Wheel having much more to do with the connection of the Dragon to the Land...as it would appear the Wheel is able to reset the cosmos. So, the Wheel is more important to this equation than our knowledge of physics.
So you said it first. I see some humor in me trying to present you your own theory, and in my assuming you had unfairly dismissed it. But I would guess that the humor in Sodas's post is related to this:
I think the theory is fun, and legitimate from a view point of the canon when confronted with a literal view of two dawns; it's not that I believe it to be the actual explanation of what will happen. If a theory is plausible within the canon, it's of interest to me.

Since Theoryland is quite tolerant of positions of a stranger nature (a plus!), and you as Boss are implied to have at least some interest in our thoughts, you probably have had to do some verbal gymnastics to keep some of the longer shots in play. Or others have. While this theory on the connection and Terez's on the Dawns are all on the fairway, I took a number of bogeys early on. Some guys are looking for their balls in the parking lot. (To run with the metaphor a bit more: several can't figure out how the golf cart works, many have finished their rounds and are now relaxing with a beer, and a few even went to the wrong course. Okay. I could go on though-trolls, lurkers, spambots-they all have their counterparts. I wonder who the Tiger Woods of Theoryland is). But anyway, I would guess the joke lies in the wording of the phrase, "it could lend itself to be interpreted." Maybe a nod to some flamewar past, possibly in a post describing how the respirator keeping the theory alive works. Within the canon is good. I prefer trying to reverse engineer the probable canon/known unknowns in the canon though.

I see no reason the Creator could not have built a reset button just in case the Wheel fails to pass some set of tests designed into the system. A failsafe would seem to make a lot of sense, a very smart failsafe for the most complex "almost sentient" super computer that could be imagined.
I suppose this is a matter of interpretation. I don't exactly disagree with the reasoning. I like having a radically vast set of generalized PLE's that fully encompasses the possible effects the Wheel can directly have on the Pattern. Every Thread Level Event absolutely deterministic, with a definite action performed and a precise set of criteria. The Wheel certainly has a mechanism for recognizing the need for Talents, and for allocating them. Presumably the Wheel could recognize the need (or at least the probable need) to use a fail-safe, if certain criteria are met. But what constitutes perfection, as far as the Wheel is concerned? How is the potential need for divine intervention absolutely precluded? Worlds can fail, or at least all evidence in the canon suggests that they can. If this is true, why would the Wheel have a reset button to avoid something the Creator sees as acceptable? If the reset button exists only to resolve physical paradoxes, I could see the reset button as more or less the same as the blueprints for a specific group of Pattern Level Events. But then why have them at all? Why not just remove the possibility of paradox, along with the means to deal with it? Whether the button exists or not, a system with a problem that is entirely explained, identified, and solved by deterministic methods seems superfluous. Although this may not violate the 'perfect creation' premise, if 'perfect' is only concerned with the output and not the method's efficiency. If the reset button is for preventing victory for the Shadow instead of resolving paradoxes, I could almost accept it. As the Pattern contains the ability to release the Dark One, humanity interacting with the Shadow is conceivably necessary for perfection, or at least is unavoidable. Since the world isn't in a perpetual loop within a loop by the 'reset' button constantly undoing the drilling of the Bore and as a Shadow victory is possible, use of the button must be an essentially unreliable safeguard. As it is of the Wheel, there is no discretion: a specific set of criteria will describe where it is used. And the Wheel must be able to definitely know how the button is used, so a deterministic set of criteria must exist that describes how far a given state is rewound/undone, and whether or not a state is otherwise modified.

Why assume the physics and makeup of the universe in WoT is absolutely simmilar? RJ practically confirmed they are not. Consider the Sun: what if it's just a big shiny ball of 'caloric' in WoT? This is especially possible if the universe is created in T'A'R: ignoraqnce is bliss. If the pseudo creator understands the Sun in a certain way, it would be created in the way it is understood. So, ignorance of black holes and supernovas precludes the possibility of their existence, at least as far a stars go. If black holes are known of, they may exist, but their creation would be independent of star death. Robert Jordan has said that the physics of WoT are factually simmilar to how it was understood in medieval times. I don't see this desire to put our knowledge of modern physics into this crucible.

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:11 PM
Well...that's a bizarre question. So I can only conclude it's not in the right language (ENGLISH). And, you know, I would answer. But I don't speak 'freaky-deaky dutch', as they say in the movies.

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:17 PM
The OP actually is finite, but endlessly recyclable. Which may have been the point of your analogy, but this issue is sort of key to my Grand Theory, so I'll be obnoxious, hijack the thread for a moment, and disagree. I'll be a Theorylander (but I have no need to repeat myself):

In a way, the source is the exact opposite of the well you describe. It's like the Horn of Gabriel: infinite surface area, but finite (and constant) volume. Which is why the Cleansing was so cool on a mathematical level. The Taint covered an infinite surface, but was of infinitessimal thickness. The calculus plays out to tell us that a finite (and man-made, no Creator lending a hand) solution should be feasible. And it was. (Think horn of Gabriel, (which is also a fascinating way to understand the horn of valere: a manmade object doing feats of an 'infinite level)) In fact, the Taint ensured its own destruction: the Breaking gave birth to a world where Mordeth could turn fear and distrust and Daes'Daemar into a weapon that could destroy it (far better to have a 'perfect' design, taking every eventuality into account, than some whatinthehell reset button, eh Tam? lol). The nature of the weave of the conduit is also very telling for my theory. There are mathematical processes that would let a finite structure bridge infinite distance, but you'd need to do something with fractals to make the finite structure of the weave cover an infinte surface. Almost like what Rand recalled the weave doing.

You know, running with some principles of Graph theory, the Draqgon=Land property allows for some very cool stuff. Like dividing by zero (or infiny/maradon level power) and bubbles of Light (the apple trees)

Now back to your previously scheduled discussion...

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:23 PM
isn't the point of this thread to simply post questions that can only be answered by Team Jordan? There is a questions thread in GD after all. If you want HCFF input, why not post there?

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 06:33 PM
[/QUOTE]
Surely that is a mistake.

It's the gholam debate all over again. I could present my case that they aren't human, were never human, et cetera perfectly, and we wouldn't all agree. (though i still think I'm right. it died in minutes. you don't starve to death in minutes unless you are really fucking hungry already. Why would it (that's right: it. Not he, which would work if it was human)choose to fight Mat, the hardest prey it had ever known, if it were on the brink of death?)

Anyway, this whole thread is getting a little boring. Moiraine is awesome, can't we leave it at that?

Cortar
01-26-2012, 08:00 PM
Why assume the physics and makeup of the universe in WoT is absolutely simmilar? RJ practically confirmed they are not. Consider the Sun: what if it's just a big shiny ball of 'caloric' in WoT? This is especially possible if the universe is created in T'A'R: ignoraqnce is bliss. If the pseudo creator understands the Sun in a certain way, it would be created in the way it is understood. So, ignorance of black holes and supernovas precludes the possibility of their existence, at least as far a stars go. If black holes are known of, they may exist, but their creation would be independent of star death. Robert Jordan has said that the physics of WoT are factually simmilar to how it was understood in medieval times. I don't see this desire to put our knowledge of modern physics into this crucible.

If this is true then it kinda contradicts what Mogh said in TSR. When she is cornered by Ny. she hints that the AS of the AoL visited other planets and I am very sure medieval scholars had no clue about planets.

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 08:13 PM
perhaps I was a tad bit unclear. I meant to say that the real physical laws of WoT are similar to what they were believed to be in medieval (and to a lesser extent, renaissance) times. It is not just the understanding, but the underlying laws as well. Anyway, Copernicus pretty much covers what is necessary.

You are being awfully literal. There has never been a single understanding of the universe.

The Unreasoner
01-26-2012, 08:14 PM
who rated this thread?

Lupusdeusest
01-26-2012, 08:47 PM
This is only more awesome after rewatching Jekyll.

Ishara
01-27-2012, 12:39 PM
Unreasoner, can you explain why this whole thread, consisting of disorganized and disconnected posts, should not be considered spam?

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2012, 04:09 AM
Unreasoner, can you explain why this whole thread, consisting of disorganized and disconnected posts, should not be considered spam?
Obviously it is an invaluable historical record.
Even if it is usually totally unclear which history it is recording.

Lupusdeusest
01-28-2012, 05:07 AM
Obviously it is an invaluable historical record.
Even if it is usually totally unclear which history it is recording.

Show him the historical documents.

Zombie Sammael
01-28-2012, 06:03 AM
To be fair, it's not too much more incoherent than some ideas Felix got away with posting. If The Unreasoner wants to be the new Felix, I say let him. His only competition at the moment is Confused.

Davian93
01-28-2012, 11:01 AM
As there is really no overarching point to the thread or focus to the initial posts, it has been closed to comments.

Not deleted though...please note the distinction.


Cheers

Dav