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View Full Version : Moridin dies at the hand of the Forsaken


LawnchairSoda
01-26-2012, 11:25 PM
Hey guys, I was wondering about the implications of the Forsaken finding out about the bond between Moridin and Rand. I mean, if one of them wanted to kill Rand, could they just kill Moridin? or does it not work like that? :)

eht slat meit
01-26-2012, 11:28 PM
Given that the nature of the bond isn't fully known, that seems like a sketchy proposition.

Not to mention the fallout from attempting to kill the Nae'bliss himself on theory.

Terez
01-27-2012, 12:14 AM
Yeah, I think if they're going to kill him, they're going to kill him because they want his job. I doubt any of them would risk it just based on a shaky assumption about what it might do to Rand.

maleshub
01-27-2012, 02:05 AM
Fain is going to kill a few souls during the next book. I wonder if any of the "victims" will be Foresaken. RJ's Gollum will screw his Sauron big time. But I wonder how!

LawnchairSoda
01-28-2012, 10:12 AM
I could have sworn one of the forsaken, maybe Graendal, may have noticed Moridin rubbing his hand. The same hand Rand has lost. Although, I'm not sure if the Forsaken are even aware Rand has lost a hand. I thought that part of the reason Moridin rescinded his order to kill Rand was because he started realizing the connection between himself and Rand. Like his hand hurting, or the sickness. so he realizes that if you kill Rand, you kill moridin. Also, what better way to become Naeblis then to kill the current Naeblis and the Dragon in one fell swoop? I bet Demandred realizes the connection and tries to kill Moridin. Just a guess though, I know it's crazy :)

Zombie Sammael
01-28-2012, 11:44 AM
I could have sworn one of the forsaken, maybe Graendal, may have noticed Moridin rubbing his hand. The same hand Rand has lost. Although, I'm not sure if the Forsaken are even aware Rand has lost a hand. I thought that part of the reason Moridin rescinded his order to kill Rand was because he started realizing the connection between himself and Rand. Like his hand hurting, or the sickness. so he realizes that if you kill Rand, you kill moridin. Also, what better way to become Naeblis then to kill the current Naeblis and the Dragon in one fell swoop? I bet Demandred realizes the connection and tries to kill Moridin. Just a guess though, I know it's crazy :)

The only way it would work is if it was Demandred, and also whatever Demandred is doing is so awesome, terrifying, and dastardly that he becomes the new villain in one one fell swoop. Otherwise, too much has ben set up with Rand and Ishy. I'd like it if it was a final plot twist, though.

eht slat meit
01-28-2012, 09:02 PM
I could have sworn one of the forsaken, maybe Graendal, may have noticed Moridin rubbing his hand. The same hand Rand has lost. Although, I'm not sure if the Forsaken are even aware Rand has lost a hand. )

Yeah, that was Graendal, noticing that he was flexing his hand as if it were stiff and causing him pain. She also noticed the similarity between Moriding and Rand at the end of the same chapter (TGS prologue).

Unlikely to be an issue, thought, as her main ally among the Forsaken got balefired by Rand and she failed so spectacularly in ToM that she's likely to end up on a leash with Moghedien and Lanfear.

Southpaw2012
01-28-2012, 10:51 PM
I asked Brandon Sanderson this exact question on twitter a few months ago about if Demandred would kill Moridin if he learned of the connection and he said that if Demandred thought he could actually kill Moridin, don't you think he would've tried?

maleshub
01-29-2012, 08:44 PM
Unlikely to be an issue, thought, as her main ally among the Forsaken got balefired by Rand and she failed so spectacularly in ToM that she's likely to end up on a leash with Moghedien and Lanfear.

Lol ... The Do is a sexist. His female Foresaken all fail so miserably; and they end up "leashed!"

In the early part of the series, we have Ba'alzamon giving Rand the impression that he wants him to serve; yet he keeps trying to kill him. It looks too much like the true intention is wanting Rand, Mat, and Perrin dead; with the attempts to have them turn to the Shadow a facade. Would Ba'alz, et. al really want a Nae'blis above them?

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2012, 03:50 AM
In the early part of the series, we have Ba'alzamon giving Rand the impression that he wants him to serve; yet he keeps trying to kill him. It looks too much like the true intention is wanting Rand, Mat, and Perrin dead; with the attempts to have them turn to the Shadow a facade. Would Ba'alz, et. al really want a Nae'blis above them?
I think that at that point, Ishamael thought that he could gain control of the Dragon, so that he (Ishamael) would be Nae'blis even if the Dragon came to serve the Shadow. If he had killed the DR, that might've been somewhat unfortunate but no more, so he was not going out of his way to avoid it, but it was not a serious goal either.

Only when he'd figured out which of the three was the DR were the "kill on sight" orders for Mat and Perrin issued.

Enigma
01-30-2012, 05:22 AM
Only when he'd figured out which of the three was the DR were the "kill on sight" orders for Mat and Perrin issued.

I was under the impression that once the Shadow figured out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn Mat & Perrin dropped off the radar as far as most of the forsaken were concerned. I could be wrong here but I thought Lanfear checked them out because they were close to Rand and thus interested her. Likewise Ishamael gave his orders at the Dark Friend gathering (the ones that caused that whitecloak go go after Mat in Ebou Dar).

Aside from them there seems to have been no active kill on sight order. Otherwise why was Mat's Shaido girlfriend nor ordered to kill him the first time they got friendly rather that when it might draw Rand into attacking Sammael.

Zombie Sammael
01-30-2012, 05:37 AM
I was under the impression that once the Shadow figured out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn Mat & Perrin dropped off the radar as far as most of the forsaken were concerned. I could be wrong here but I thought Lanfear checked them out because they were close to Rand and thus interested her. Likewise Ishamael gave his orders at the Dark Friend gathering (the ones that caused that whitecloak go go after Mat in Ebou Dar).

Aside from them there seems to have been no active kill on sight order. Otherwise why was Mat's Shaido girlfriend nor ordered to kill him the first time they got friendly rather that when it might draw Rand into attacking Sammael.

Wasn't the Gholam sent after Mat because the Shadow wanted him dead? Presumably, Moridin was the thing's master.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2012, 05:49 AM
I was under the impression that once the Shadow figured out that Rand was the Dragon Reborn Mat & Perrin dropped off the radar as far as most of the forsaken were concerned. I could be wrong here but I thought Lanfear checked them out because they were close to Rand and thus interested her. Likewise Ishamael gave his orders at the Dark Friend gathering (the ones that caused that whitecloak go go after Mat in Ebou Dar).

Aside from them there seems to have been no active kill on sight order. Otherwise why was Mat's Shaido girlfriend nor ordered to kill him the first time they got friendly rather that when it might draw Rand into attacking Sammael.
At that stage, Ishamael was just one amongst equals. So the other Forsaken did not have to follow his orders, and he generally did not bother trying to give them any.
Thus, while Ishamael had ordered the death of Mat and Perrin, the other Forsaken either ignored them or were willing to use them in their schemes. I think that Lanfear fell into the last category: she considered using Mat as am alternative way to approaching Rand, which was all that really mattered to her.

Ishamael had known all along that getting rid of the two "extra ta'veren" would be useful to the Shadow, but he had not shared his Secret Prophecies with any of the others, and had no intention of doing so at the time either. Thus, all he could do was delegate it to minor DF and hope for the best. Or he could've gone hunting for them himself, but obviously he thought that he could find better uses for his time.

Enigma
01-30-2012, 11:59 AM
Wasn't the Gholam sent after Mat because the Shadow wanted him dead? Presumably, Moridin was the thing's master.

The Gholam was brought into Ebou Dar by Sammael to keep the Aes Sedai interfearing in the search for the stash of Ter'angreal that Sammael has the Whitecloak inquisitor hunting for. I don't recall any specific order being given to sent it after Mat. My memory is a bit hazy on the subject but I thought Sammael didn't seem too bothered or care when he learned Mat was in the city.

There was one reference to the Gholam saying that some 'he' wanted Mat dead but I don't think it ever stated if it was Moridin or Sammael. Perhaps the Gholam going after Mat was just the creature looking to get even with Mat for hurting it though the Gholam does seem too valuable a weapon to let go wandering around on its own from the Shadow pov.


At that stage, Ishamael was just one amongst equals. So the other Forsaken did not have to follow his orders, and he generally did not bother trying to give them any.
Thus, while Ishamael had ordered the death of Mat and Perrin, the other Forsaken either ignored them or were willing to use them in their schemes

I agree that Ishamael did not have the authority to order any of the other forsaken around and he certainly played his cards close to his chest. If he knew anything about Mat & Perrin he does not appear to have shared that info with any of his rivals.

I do question him ordering their deaths thought. Ishamael may not have been able to overrule the other forsaken but still had access to a considerable network of darkfriends. He was out from the bore before the rest of the forsaken so he should have much more contacts among the darkfriends yet there does not seem to have been must active hunting for either Mat or Perrin until the last few books.

Likewise Ishamael gave order to the Whitecloak inquisitior but as soon as they kicked in he did not rush out and gather all the men he could and try to kill Mat. If Ishamael had given compulsion based orders surely we would have seen a major rush by the Whitecloak to kill Mat. The only attack I can recall was the incident at the inn where there were some men with a sack that Mat thought they were going to use to carry away his gold in but was more likely meant to carry him away in. Kidnapping or even attempted kidnapping is not the same as murder and it would have been a lot easier to slip in to the inn and kill Mat that drag him away to kill him somewhere else.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2012, 03:15 PM
With Mat, there was also the "falling from the bridge between buildings in Tar Valon" business, when his attacker seemed to want him dead. Followed by the river incident, in which the attackers seemed to want him dead. Followed by the "throwing fire works into the fire" thing. Then there was the brawl in which Tuon helped, where the attackers tried to kill him.

With Perrin, there's Slayer who tells him: "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?" Almost all the Trollocs which fought in the Two Rivers Campaign were brought there just to kill Perrin.

missbee
01-30-2012, 03:55 PM
The Gholam was brought into Ebou Dar by Sammael to keep the Aes Sedai interfearing in the search for the stash of Ter'angreal that Sammael has the Whitecloak inquisitor hunting for. I don't recall any specific order being given to sent it after Mat. My memory is a bit hazy on the subject but I thought Sammael didn't seem too bothered or care when he learned Mat was in the city.



As I remember it, Ishy's orders at the DF social did kick in.
When Carridin saw Mat in Ebou Dar, he told Sammael about it. Sammael told him to ignore Mat and concentrate on the 'angreal stash, then proceeded to send the gholam to hinder the AS and kill Mat.
When the gholam saw the girls leaving Ebou Dar he had to chose whether to go after Mat or the girls - he chose the girls. (Presumably that is what allows Mat to recover from his injuries in peace)
Carridin meanwhile, ignores Sammael's command and follows Ishy's instead, ordering local assassins to kill Mat. There were quite a few attempts by pretend beggars

Daekyras
01-31-2012, 06:09 AM
Almost all the Trollocs which fought in the Two Rivers Campaign were brought there just to kill Perrin.

I thought that they were brought to draw Rand out. Perrin was not part of that plan hence Slayers surprise...

Dajoran
01-31-2012, 06:38 AM
I thought that they were brought to draw Rand out. Perrin was not part of that plan hence Slayers surprise...

You're right.

He could feel one of those he hated out there somewhere, south, toward Emond’s Field. Which one? It did not matter. Rand al’Thor was the only really important one. He would have known if it was al’Thor. Rumor had not drawn him yet, but it would. Ordeith shivered with desire. It had to be so. More tales must be gotten past Bornhald’s guards at Taren Ferry, more reports of the scouring of the Two Rivers, to drift to Rand al’Thor’s ears and sear his brain. First al’Thor, then the Tower, for what they had taken from him. He would have all that was his by right


NINJA EDIT!

Actually, I'm wrong - I forgot that Fain's goal here was originaly just the Whitecloaks - then became about letting the news of Whitecloaks and Trollocs out of the Two Rivers to reach Rand.

Scusi!

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2012, 07:14 AM
I thought that they were brought to draw Rand out. Perrin was not part of that plan hence Slayers surprise...
I should've quoted the whole bit.

"It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died." Slayer's voice became angry. "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower." Abruptly he chuckled. "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?"
So at first there were just enough to annoy the WC, (hopefully) kill Fain and possibly, as added (but unvoiced) extra draw some attention to the TR.

When the Shadow found out that Perrin was there, a lot more Trollocs were brought in, with the explicit purpose of killing Perrin. Which strongly suggests that killing Perrin was indeed a priority for whichever Forsaken was at that time ordering Slayer around.

Enigma
02-01-2012, 05:39 PM
When the Shadow found out that Perrin was there, a lot more Trollocs were brought in, with the explicit purpose of killing Perrin. Which strongly suggests that killing Perrin was indeed a priority for whichever Forsaken was at that time ordering Slayer around.

Given the evidence quoted it does seem that some elements of the Shadow were trying to kill Mat & Perrin but I have to wonder why the Shadow's premier assassin had to bring in several thousand shadowspawn to kill Perrin? Perrin did not know who Slayer was. Why not simply pop into TER and go to his room and then step back out into the real world and knife him the way he did later with the couple that he thought might have been Rand & Min.

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2012, 04:44 AM
That would have been cheating.

Or, if you want a somewhat more bureaucratically correct answer:
Slayer had been given orders to kill Fain without exposing himself. He could not follow those orders while killing Perrin. So that task had to be taken care of by another branch of the Shadow Services. If Slayer had been able to reach his commander (Ishamael) and ask for a clarification, then he probably would have been told that killing Perrin had the higher priority. But because Ishamael was still busy being dead and becoming Moridin at the time, he could not be reached, and thus the plans could not be adapted.

maleshub
02-03-2012, 12:49 AM
Mat and Perrin were on the to kill list as soon as it was clear who the DR is. In the first few chapters of TDR, a Fade tells Perrin: "Three threads woven together share one another's doom. When one is cut, all are." And "Cut one leg of the tripod, and all fall down."

The shadow contemplated turning Rand over for a while. But for Perrin and Mat, death was the only option.

There are numerous instances where Shadowspawn were sent to kill Mat or Perrin. One example is Rahvin's darkhounds attack against Rand and Mat in the 3-fold land.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2012, 04:35 AM
Another example is the "Trollocs to the rescue" episode in the Stone. Which, I'd forgotten but noticed when I reread it, was immediately preceded by Mat planting a dagger in a random Gray Man who had apparently been hunting him.

Terez
02-03-2012, 04:50 AM
There were also Gray Men sent after Perrin at an inn in TDR. Both Mat and Perrin apparently have the ability to detect Shadowspawn.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2012, 05:17 AM
Well, with Mat it may have been just luck. No telling what he was aiming at when he planted a knife in a Gray Man.

And, to be fair, in more or less the same time frame Rand dispatched the Gray Man in the merchant's party while he was on the way to Tear. So attempts on his life were made too, making a bit of a muddle of the whole argument.

Terez
02-03-2012, 05:52 AM
Rand also had a Gray Man in LOC, which he sensed and mistook for the vile taint of Lews Therin (while meanwhile Lews Therin is going on about how 'death comes'). Rand caught it and tied it up with Air, and then Taim (who had just come in by way of the balcony) saved him from it. And Mat can see them:

He turned from the railing and suddenly became aware of a man sharing the bridge with him. A man with a dagger in his hand.

Grig
02-03-2012, 11:10 AM
Both Mat and Perrin apparently have the ability to detect Shadowspawn.

It seemed more that Perrin can smell "wrongness", which in the cosmology happens to equate with Shadowspawn (so may be a distinction that makes no real difference in-universe, aside from likely also taking into account Aridhol-style corruption). Mat's just lucky. Case in point: the Gray Man that he killed by falling off a bridge in Tar Valon, where there was no mention of a Shadow-sense, just dumb luck.

Rand caught it and tied it up with Air, and then Taim (who had just come in by way of the balcony) saved him from it.

Saved him from it? Portions of many theories are crying out in agony at this characterization!

Terez
02-03-2012, 11:13 AM
It seemed more that Perrin can smell "wrongness"He can also see them, with difficulty, just like Mat can.

Mat's just lucky. Case in point: the Gray Man that he killed by falling off a bridge in Tar Valon, where there was no mention of a Shadow-sense, just dumb luck.
You're missing the point. Mat saw it. If he can't sense them in some way, he shouldn't be able to see them.

Saved him from it? Portions of many theories are crying out in agony at this characterization!

It's called sarcasm.

Grig
02-06-2012, 10:47 AM
You're missing the point. Mat saw it. If he can't sense them in some way, he shouldn't be able to see them.

There is no reason to believe that. It's not what is in the books. Grey Men aren't invisible, they are simply the epitome of a "background character". You don't notice them. Yet, say, when Rand has several Aiel in guarding him, they manage to kill the Gray Man (at great cost of life). They weren't just stabbing at air, as soon as the Gray Man did something with noticable effects they were able to notice what was right in front of their eyes the whole time but that they didn't properly notice. Alternately, there's Slayer killing the Gray Man in the Tower. He's just a human that can enter TAR, so "special powers" that let one sense them can't be a prerequisite for seeing them. Alternately, the Wondergirls seeing the Gray Man to trap him with Air in that same incident. People can see them once they actually SEE and not just LOOK (kind of like Arya learns to do in aSoIaF). Ta'veren can help with that, with the right thing catching their eye at the right time. For instance, look at it from Rand's POV with the Gray Man alluded to above. He doesn't catch it because he senses the Taint or anything, he catches it because something he "saw" a few sentences ago with the guy lurking towards him finally penetrated and he SAW it.

It's called sarcasm.

It's called jokingly pushing back.

Enigma
02-06-2012, 11:38 AM
Grey men can be seen but unless one is activly alert and looking for them they slip past the eye without being noticed. Each of the three main heroes have their own built in way of detecting them.

With Rand he is super strong with the OP and apparantly sensitive enought to detect the taint that come from all shadowspawn. When he detected the grey man that Taim actually killed it was the sence of wrongness that put him on alert. It felt like the taint and Rand started paying a lot more attention to what was going on in his immediate vacinity and was thus able to spot the grey man. A weaker channeler would not detect the taint and no be on their guard = probably dead.

Perrin's senses are hightened by his wolfbrother gift so he pickes up on the wrongness of Shadowspawn and like Rand goes on alert making it a lot more likely that he will spot any grey man near him.

With Mat its a lot simpler. He is just lucky and if a grey man tries to sneek up on him Mat bumps into him or falls on him or some other random event saves him.