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The Unreasoner
01-28-2012, 06:06 PM
How about an advice thread? You guys are more intelligent than the average interneters. And the wisdom of crowds might play a small role as well.


I'll start:
Dear HCFF,
Suppose an old-fashioned kind of guy is in love, and wants to propose to a new-age kind of girl whose father is not in the picture (and frankly, never has been). Hypothetically, whose permission would he need to seek? And if his own family was divided over her, how could he fix this? Suppose the grandmother loves her, but the grandfather won't stand for his first grandson marrying a 'heathen'?

Davian93
01-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Simple...you ask the mother.

As to the other, they'll get over it...if they dont, they're not very good grandparents anyway.

The Unreasoner
01-28-2012, 07:06 PM
Simple...you ask the mother.
In this hypothetical, the mother doesn't care. But the person wants to ask permission from someone that might actually say no. You know, someone with discretion.
As to the other, they'll get over it...if they dont, they're not very good grandparents anyway.
Well, hypothetically he's great except on this.

Davian93
01-28-2012, 07:08 PM
Honestly, you shouldnt be asking for permission anyway. You should be asking for their blessing.

As for the grandfather, if he is a good guy, he'll come around eventually with you doing nothing.

Seeker
01-28-2012, 07:36 PM
How about an advice thread? You guys are more intelligent than the average interneters. And the wisdom of crowds might play a small role as well.


I'll start:
Dear HCFF,
Suppose an old-fashioned kind of guy is in love, and wants to propose to a new-age kind of girl whose father is not in the picture (and frankly, never has been). Hypothetically, whose permission would he need to seek? And if his own family was divided over her, how could he fix this? Suppose the grandmother loves her, but the grandfather won't stand for his first grandson marrying a 'heathen'?

Dear anonymous.

I think it's best to remember that asking a woman's father for her hand is an old tradition and when it is done today, it is done mainly as an act of courtesy. If there is no father than there is no one to pay courtesy to and you should proceed directly into your proposal.

As for your family, while this may be a difficult issue, it's important to remember that it's your life we're talking about and your happiness that is of importance in this situation. Grandparents can be touchy when a young man wants to marry outside the faith but whomever you choose, you will have to live with that person for the rest of your life. Better to marry a woman you can be happy with than one who chose simply to appease your grandparents. I would advice a gentle but frank discussion with your grandfather, indicating that this is your choice and that it's up to him to respect that choice. He may potest - and you should smile and nod if he does - but he isn't the one who has to live with this woman. End the conversation with a firm declaration that you intend to marry this woman. Period.

Good luck.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-28-2012, 08:10 PM
Honestly, you shouldnt be asking for permission anyway. You should be asking for their blessing.

As for the grandfather, if he is a good guy, he'll come around eventually with you doing nothing.


I agree with Davian, it is asking for their blessing. I am ASSUMING the girl is over the age of consent, if not, permission is well...:eek::eek::eek: scary in lots of ways. heh.

If said gramps has issues, all the peeps involved can do is explain that love has won out in this situation, and hope for the best. Unless HUGE amounts of money are involved, then wait it out. :D

Seeker
01-28-2012, 10:19 PM
If said gramps has issues, all the peeps involved can do is explain that love has won out in this situation, and hope for the best. Unless HUGE amounts of money are involved, then wait it out. :D

Remember, you can always live in sin.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2012, 03:49 AM
Remember, you can always live in sin.
Are you sure?
Some New Age girls would make it rather hard to find something they actually consider sinful. Of course, trying could be fun.

Mort
01-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Dear HCFF,
Suppose an old-fashioned kind of guy is in love, and wants to propose to a new-age kind of girl whose father is not in the picture (and frankly, never has been). Hypothetically, whose permission would he need to seek? And if his own family was divided over her, how could he fix this? Suppose the grandmother loves her, but the grandfather won't stand for his first grandson marrying a 'heathen'?

You could start living in the 21th century and not ask for a blessing at all ;) Let the families be surprised by an invitation to the wedding. Or Vegas, Vegas makes it hassle-free :)


Remember, you can always live in sin.

It's totally the new black.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2012, 11:22 AM
You could start living in the 21th century ...
Won't work:

Suppose an old-fashioned kind of guy is in love, ...

Or, as Garion puts it:
As soon as somebody falls in love, all the wits seem to dribble out of the bottom of his head.

The Unreasoner
01-29-2012, 05:06 PM
Well, I am pretty sure you guys figured out the hypothetical guy is me, and since my girlfriend doesn't read TL, there is no point in pretending otherwise. Especially since we've already talked about possibly getting engaged.

She is a month older than I am (although a (big) part of me thinks it's ridiculous to get married this young, but she keeps talking about getting more serious, and we already live together). There's not some money issue going on. I just don't want to make him think I am just trying to piss him off.

Anyway, the issue isn't: 'am I asking the right question' but 'given that I am asking the right question, what might the answer be?' My mom would kill me if I don't ask someone. Basically, I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for my mom, but I want to do it for my mom. Maybe her older sister?

Durvasha
01-29-2012, 05:20 PM
Isn't there any other male in the family? I think, in one of the 19th century books (Don't know which one. maybe "Jude the obscure?" or something like that), a male cousin gives the bride away (or maybe he is asked to).

Making mothers happy is important. I married a girl I didnot know at all, just to make my mother happy. Must be Karma, she turned out to be my soul-mate :D.

As for Grandpas, they are just mean sounding softies. They will come around, if not now, they will once they have great grand children:p.

Davian93
01-29-2012, 05:43 PM
I dont know..if you're not 100% sure you want to get married "this young" maybe asking her isnt the best idea.

AbbeyRoad
01-29-2012, 09:30 PM
Basically, I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for my mom, but I want to do it for my mom. Maybe her older sister?
Marriage is something you have to do for yourself, and your significant other, certainly not your parents. If you have doubts, wait. There's no rush; you have the rest of your life to subjugate to bondage... you might as well enjoy your freedom while you can.

If you're not ready, you're not ready. Who cares what your mother thinks? This decision is too big to appropriate to others.

Sinistrum
01-30-2012, 12:10 AM
This decision is too big to appropriate to others.

Ditto. Its your life and your happiness at stake. Nobody but you and her will have to live with the consequences if things go wrong. The rest of the family can just sit back and arm chair quarterback your life without any repercussions to themselves. An opinion without any risk attached to it is free to be misleading, self-serving, and irrational.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2012, 03:38 AM
I think that a lot of people are conflating two different questions.

One is: should you get married?
As it is your problem, TU, I'm quite willing to let him worry about this himself. The best we can do is what AbbeyRoad said and advise "If you have doubts, wait.", but whether or not the doubts are important enough is impossible to judge from outside your head.

The other question is: who should you ask (apart from your girlfriend, who will probably say yes) and what should you ask for, precisely?
From a traditional traditional viewpoint, it should indeed be a male relative; the closest male relative possible.
From a more modern traditional viewpoint, a female relative (preferably an older one, and once again as close as possible) would do just as well. So for this purpose, her mother could be the best option, though other considerations might complicate this.
As for what you should ask for (permission, blessing, cookies), I guess that depends on the local customs which you're trying to follow, and as there can be a wide variety in those, I think that you'll have to figure that one out for yourself. We can give advise (as has been done already), but how useful that would be is unclear to me.

Crispin's Crispian
01-30-2012, 10:46 AM
Dear anonymous.

I think it's best to remember that asking a woman's father for her hand is an old tradition and when it is done today, it is done mainly as an act of courtesy. If there is no father than there is no one to pay courtesy to and you should proceed directly into your proposal.

It seems to me that the person one should ask is the person who has been either most influential or most effective in the girlfriend's life. Gender does not matter--the tradition of asking the father is rooted in an outmoded and paternalistic worldview where fathers were in complete control of their families.

If her mother has been the most important person in her life, ask her mother. Then ask the grandparents for a blessing.

confused at birth
01-30-2012, 10:54 AM
its 2012 if she wants this she should ask you

tworiverswoman
01-30-2012, 12:53 PM
Some people have misread "I'm doing it for my mom" to mean the "getting married" part of this - I'm reading that it's just the "asking permission" part of all this, is that correct?

If so, I agree that asking someone who has influence over her is what you want. Obviously that wouldn't be her father. Ask your g/f who you might ask.

As for "too young," I looked at your age in your public profile and I agree. A hundred years ago you'd be considered a lifelong bachelor at your age but these days you're just barely into adulthood. How long have you and your ladyfriend been living together? From your comments the desire to get married seems to be coming mostly from her -- you sounded a little less sure about it.

This isn't a casual decision to make - it's going to have real consequences -- either way. I can say that my husband and I lived together for 26 years before I decided that I didn't want to be forbidden a seat by his hospital bed should he end up in the emergency room or something. Sounds silly but being married does offer a number of legal "rights" that just living together does not.

Don't just "go along" with her wish to marry. Be damn sure that YOU want to marry her, as well - or you've signed up for some real problems down the road. In Romance Novels, "love conquers all," but real life doesn't read, apparently. :(

I can offer no opinion whatever on your grandfather - some people flatly refuse to accept this kind of "betrayal of the faith" and I have no idea how strongly he feels about it. How much does his opinion on this issue sway yours?

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

Davian93
01-30-2012, 01:01 PM
As for "too young," I looked at your age in your public profile and I agree. A hundred years ago you'd be considered a lifelong bachelor at your age but these days you're just barely into adulthood.

I just did too...yeah, I have to agree that you are pretty young to be getting hitched. What's the real rush here? Also, is she the same age or even younger? People change alot as they enter the mid-to-late 20s and figure out who they really are.

EDIT:

Also, have you guys had the following conversations:

1. Where do you both want to live as adults?
2. How many kids do you want or do you even want kids? Does it matter if one of you cant have kids due to sterility? Would you adopt, etc etc.
3. What faith will you raise them as? (probably a big one as you are from radically different backgrounds apparently)
4. How would you parent if you have kids...people that differ on that often fight big time
5. What are your monetary priorities (is either one of you a massive spender? Will you have 100% joint accounts? Will you pay separately, Will vehicles/homes be in both your names?, etc etc...money is the #1 cause of conflict in a relationship.

etc, etc

You'd be amazed how some people never talk about the parenting thing until they're already married or till they already have kids...little late at that point.

Uno
01-30-2012, 01:12 PM
I just did too...yeah, I have to agree that you are pretty young to be getting hitched. What's the real rush here? Also, is she the same age or even younger? People change alot as they enter the mid-to-late 20s and figure out who they really are.

Meh. I was 23 when MS and I got engaged and she was 20. We were engaged for a bit, so I was 25 when we got married and she 22. We'll have our 10th anniversary in August, by the way. I wouldn't call 22 all that young, depending a bit on the maturity of the parties involved.

The quest to get someone's permission sounds like something out of a Wodehouse novel to me.

Davian93
01-30-2012, 01:14 PM
Meh. I was 23 when MS and I got engaged and she was 20. We were engaged for a bit, so I was 25 when we got married and she 21. We'll have our 10th anniversary in August, by the way. I wouldn't call 22 all that young, depending a bit on the maturity of the parties involved.

The quest to get someone's permission sounds like something out of a Wodehouse novel to me.

It definitely depends on the people involved.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2012, 02:54 PM
I just did too...yeah, I have to agree that you are pretty young to be getting hitched. What's the real rush here? Also, is she the same age or even younger?
19 hours and 55 minutes* before you asked, she was one month older than he is. Of course, that may have changed, if one of them was moving very fast or in a very strong gravitational field.

* Assuming I didn't make any mistakes in off the top of the head arithmetic, and also assuming that both posts are dated with the same timezone convention.

Weiramon
01-30-2012, 04:29 PM
People change alot as they enter the mid-to-late 20s and figure out who they really are.

//

You'd be amazed how some people never talk about the parenting thing until they're already married or till they already have kids...little late at that point.

Aye, this and this (and the parts betwixt). This fellow who once masqueraded as a white talking dog, with a deep baritone voice, nursing a martini, knows of what he speaks.

In this Age, most don't know their own minds until in their late twenties, although there are many exceptions. In any event, whether you marry young or old, with one who knows themself or not, a marriage is a full-time labour in progress - it is a different beast of a relationship from living together, and must be constantly attended to by both or it will wither like a parched plant in a peasant's field. Even when work or progeny demand more time than you have, you must also be tending to the marriage.

Crispin's Crispian
01-30-2012, 05:33 PM
it is a different beast of a relationship from living together
I disagree with this, but...

Even when work or progeny demand more time than you have, you must also be tending to the marriage.

...wholeheartedly agree with this. Too many people see the wedding and honeymoon lasting forever. But if you let your attention lapse, if you don't make sure it is good for both people, you may wake up one day and realize it is good for neither.

The Unreasoner
01-30-2012, 07:07 PM
Isn't there any other male in the family? I think, in one of the 19th century books (Don't know which one. maybe "Jude the obscure?" or something like that), a male cousin gives the bride away (or maybe he is asked to).

Making mothers happy is important. I married a girl I didnot know at all, just to make my mother happy. Must be Karma, she turned out to be my soul-mate :D.

As for Grandpas, they are just mean sounding softies. They will come around, if not now, they will once they have great grand children:p.

She has a couple of male cousins I never met and an uncle. I don't think it needs to be male. I was thinking of asking her sister. You do seem to get it though: for me, I need to ask permission. It may be outdated and arbitrary, but there is a certain satisfaction in doing something for no other reason than choosing to. It's like going to church: Do I think I'll be sent to hell if I choose to sleep in on a Sunday? No. Does church serve any real and tangible purpose? Probably not. Do I want to go? Not particularly. But I go anyway.

My mom once told some things that I simply need to do in these affairs. I need to introduce her to the family before I ask her, I need to ask for permission from her father (or, in this case, someone yet to be determined), I need to kneel when I propose, I can't be tacky, I need to do it somewhere where there will not be a crowd pressuring her to say yes, I need to be engaged for at least a year before the wedding, my family's priest needs to marry us, my youngest sister gets to be a bridesmaid, I can't choose any of my brothers as best man, etc. etc. etc.

Some of these provisions have obvious purposes. Some don't. But I trust the woman who gave them to me.

Even the permission thing may have a purpose: what if I'm really not right for her, but the two of us are too caught up in each other to really see it? Someone who knows her, loves her, wants what is best for her, and can judge me with at least a modicum of objectivity serves a purpose I respect and understand.

As for the people that said some variant of the following:

If you're not ready, you're not ready. Who cares what your mother thinks? This decision is too big to appropriate to others.

tworiverswoman has the right of it:

Some people have misread "I'm doing it for my mom" to mean the "getting married" part of this - I'm reading that it's just the "asking permission" part of all this, is that correct?

If so, I agree that asking someone who has influence over her is what you want.

Thanks. And:

Ask your g/f who you might ask.

Perfect. Thank you. Seems like it would be 'intuitively obvious to the most casual observer', now that I see it.

As for the other issue, Gonzo summed it up nicely:

I think that a lot of people are conflating two different questions.

One is: should you get married?
As it is your problem, TU, I'm quite willing to let him worry about this himself.

And thank you. Am I sure? No. But I'm not sure I'll ever be sure. In any case, Gonzo has the right of it. My question was on the permission issue, not the proposal itself. Such a decision seems to demand a more personal approach. Which is not to say your input is not appreciated. In fact:

I just did too...yeah, I have to agree that you are pretty young to be getting hitched. What's the real rush here? Also, is she the same age or even younger? People change alot as they enter the mid-to-late 20s and figure out who they really are.

This does worry me a bit. I recently came out of another period of depression, and I'm often a bit overly enthusiastic or ambitious for a while after shaking a funk. But, just as getting older is not a reason to marry, being young is not a reason to not. People do change. I like change. And there is always divorce, even for us Catholics. I'd get an annulment like half my family has already and keep the kid(s) (she's already agreed to this).

Also, have you guys had the following conversations:

1. Where do you both want to live as adults?
2. How many kids do you want or do you even want kids? Does it matter if one of you cant have kids due to sterility? Would you adopt, etc etc.
3. What faith will you raise them as? (probably a big one as you are from radically different backgrounds apparently)
4. How would you parent if you have kids...people that differ on that often fight big time
5. What are your monetary priorities (is either one of you a massive spender? Will you have 100% joint accounts? Will you pay separately, Will vehicles/homes be in both your names?, etc etc...money is the #1 cause of conflict in a relationship.

etc, etc

You'd be amazed how some people never talk about the parenting thing until they're already married or till they already have kids...little late at that point.

We've touched on some of that stuff. I just figured that could be settled during the engagement period. But thanks. I didn't even think about car stuff.

I disagree with this, but...

This is very helpful, thank you.

...wholeheartedly agree with this. Too many people see the wedding and honeymoon lasting forever. But if you let your attention lapse, if you don't make sure it is good for both people, you may wake up one day and realize it is good for neither.

And this is good advice.

19 hours and 55 minutes* before you asked, she was one month older than he is. Of course, that may have changed, if one of them was moving very fast or in a very strong gravitational field.

* Assuming I didn't make any mistakes in off the top of the head arithmetic, and also assuming that both posts are dated with the same timezone convention.

LMFAO

Meh. I was 23 when MS and I got engaged and she was 20. We were engaged for a bit, so I was 25 when we got married and she 22. We'll have our 10th anniversary in August, by the way. I wouldn't call 22 all that young, depending a bit on the maturity of the parties involved.

So sometimes it works out. Good to know.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

Thank you

Davian93
01-30-2012, 07:25 PM
Unreasoner wrote:

I need to introduce her to the family before I ask her

Not necessary but a good idea...she should see what she's getting into as they'd be her family too.

I need to ask for permission from her father (or, in this case, someone yet to be determined)

I disagree on permission but asking for their blessing is the polite thing to do.


I need to kneel when I propose

Yup...definitely kneel.

I can't be tacky

Unless she really likes tacky...but yeah, dont be tacky.

I need to do it somewhere where there will not be a crowd pressuring her to say yes

100% yes. Dont do it Christmas morning in front of the entire family, dont do it in a huge restaurant with a big scene or at the stadium on the jumbotron, etc etc. Make it romantic and make sure it has meeting to the two of you.

I need to be engaged for at least a year before the wedding

Disagree. You want to have enough time to plan a wedding and give guests time to plan...especially ones that dont live in the area and have to travel. You could easily cut that down to 6 months but its tight for a full, formal wedding. 9 months is acceptable though. In your case at your age, a year isn't weird and two years isn't unusual as you are still in school? so you probably want to have a career started so you can have your own home, etc.

my family's priest needs to marry us

How does she feel about being Catholic? Won't she have to convert for a Priest to marry her? I seem to remember that from being raised Catholic. The Church is very picky about such things unless they are persuaded ($$).


my youngest sister gets to be a bridesmaid

BS, your bride gets to pick whoever she wants. Is she even friends with your sister? If not, make her a flower girl or something. Its her choice just like your best man is your choice.

I can't choose any of my brothers as best man,


Sure you can...that's just silly.

Durvasha
01-30-2012, 08:59 PM
Davian you are dissecting his mother's advice. Something not to be done ... especially with someone who is obviously going to obey her :D.

Sei'taer
01-30-2012, 09:31 PM
I've been married 3 times. I've been staying out of this conversation. I'm the worst guy to ask.

DaiShan1981
01-31-2012, 03:24 AM
Or the best, depending on how you look at it :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2012, 03:32 AM
I think I'll keep up the tradition for this thread, and keep nitpicking Davian.
100% yes. Dont do it Christmas morning in front of the entire family, dont do it in a huge restaurant with a big scene or at the stadium on the jumbotron, etc etc. Make it romantic and make sure it has meeting to the two of you.
In my view, you should also try to make sure that the place and time where and when you ask have meaning for her.
Then again, Davian is probably correct that it might be tacky to propose by SMS.

On the other hand, I seem to recall some other bloke who actually proposed here on this board, violating a whole bunch of these guidelines at once, and that seemed to be considered nice and romantic too, so maybe sending a text message would actually be a good idea.

Ishara
01-31-2012, 08:03 AM
It was *deeply* romantic, actually. ;)

Can I please caution you to have those BIG discussions before you pop the question? It may not be a big deal now, but if you wait to talk about these things (and can I recommend Susan Piver's "The Hard Questions, 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before You Say I Do"?) until after you're engagd and find out during the discussions that there is a dealbreaker - suddenly you're breaking up an engagement, not "just" a relationship. Have the talk(s) first, THEN buy the ring.

I will say, for what it's worth, that my DH did ask my Father for his blessing (to which the reply was: finally!), and did kneel. Although, I thought he had tripped and ended up on one knee, so the beginning of the proposal had me wondering what he was doing down there...LOL.

Figbiscuit
01-31-2012, 08:17 AM
Just out of interest, does anyone know of anyone who has asked for permission, or blessings or whatever, and been told a no?

And if my OH does not ask my dad for his blessings, or permissions or whatever, I will say no :D

yks 6nnetu hing
01-31-2012, 08:45 AM
I feel like the least romantic person in the room... not that this is exactly a room, but you know what I mean.

Kneeling: not necessary
tacky: meh
big crowd: if you know me, I don't like crowds. good luck getting me in one long enough to say those words.
asking permission: good grief, no! there might actually be some yelling and/or violence if this ever happens. That said, it is generally a good idea to make sure the other person's family is such that you can live with them and your family is such that she can live with yours. Same, but to a slightly lesser degree applies to his and hers friends.


I mean, who are we kidding, it's a business deal of a very specific kind that says: if anything happens to me, that's the person who gets to make the horrible decision of whether to pull the plug. And the deal has a few financial perks while it's on and a few downers if it's ever broken.

Davian93
01-31-2012, 09:05 AM
I mean, who are we kidding, it's a business deal of a very specific kind that says: if anything happens to me, that's the person who gets to make the horrible decision of whether to pull the plug. And the deal has a few financial perks while it's on and a few downers if it's ever broken.


Note to Dai Shan....someone needs some flowers STAT!

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-31-2012, 09:09 AM
if anything happens to me, that's the person who gets to make the horrible decision of whether to pull the plug.


Dai is a lucky, lucky chap :p:D:p:D

(I am still giggling out loud at this!)


Seriously though, Un (may I call you Un? It's like "hon" but less condescending and meant with more affection) you already are aware of roadblocks, and are questioning whether you will "ever" be ready, so I would just be very cautious with your next steps. It looks as if you are trying to think it all through, so you are on the right track. Questions for each other, as others have mentioned, are the key. Talk through the concerns. ALL of them. Talking through the hard stuff is the MOST important part of marriage.

I got married in my 30s and to be honest, I cannot imagine doing it earlier...I needed to learn how to be OK with myself before I ever could've made a marriage work.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-31-2012, 10:18 AM
Dai is a lucky, lucky chap :p:D:p:D

:p

I just... I don't understand why everybody thinks marriage is all romantic and stuff. and doves fly so prettily and NEVER shit on your head.

seriously. The relationship between the two (normally two, anyways) people remains the same, the only thing that changes are the rights and perks the state gives (or doesn't give) to those two in regard to each other and their offspring. So basically, before you get married what you really should be thinking of: is this the person I'd be willing to pay alimony to if things go wrong between us? If the answer is: yes, they're a lovely sane person even if we do fall out of love and get divorced; then go right ahead.

I know, I know, "nobody enters a marriage thinking it'll fail" - well, the fact is, you should consider the possibility. If you're willing to accept the possibility and all the legal, emotional (including religious) and financial consequences thereof then you're ready to get married.

If a relationship's doing good, it's doing good whether it's called a marriage or something else.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-31-2012, 10:21 AM
The relationship between the two (normally two, anyways) people

Stop it, you are killin' me now lololol

Dai really IS a lucky man apparently :eek:

Davian93
01-31-2012, 10:22 AM
Stop it, you are killin' me now lololol

Dai really IS a lucky man apparently :eek:

ROFL

Ishara
01-31-2012, 11:11 AM
In all seriousness though, yks is right. People keep asking us how married life is, and NOTHING has changed except for now we have great memories of a day that we spent celebrating our relationship. The hard stuff still comes up - all the time - and the same pitfalls that existed in a relationship before we got married are there.

That being said, I wouldn't choose anyone else in this whole wide world to have beside me when the hard stuff does come up. So, there's that. ;)

Davian93
01-31-2012, 11:16 AM
The hard shit still comes up - all the time

You should cut down on your fiber intake.

Khoram
01-31-2012, 11:22 AM
The hard stuff still comes up - all the time

That can't be healthy. You should go see a doctor. It shouldn't be coming up at all; in fact, it should be going down.

Constipation is not fun. Not fun at all. :p

yks 6nnetu hing
01-31-2012, 11:27 AM
Stop it, you are killin' me now lololol

Dai really IS a lucky man apparently :eek:

:p

The difference between love and marriage is the same as between hate and murder, except murder usually lasts less than an average marriage.

It's possible to love someone and not be married. I'm doing it right now. It's possible to hate someone and not murder them. I'm doing it right now, though it's not the same someone.

It's possible to love someone and be married to that someone. It's possible to hate someone and murder them.

It's possible to not love someone but be married to them. Those people I really can't wrap my head around: why would someone do something like that? Likewise people who murder other people but didn't hate them. Politicians, i think they're called.

It's possible to love someone while married to someone else, someone you presumably used to love. This isn't considered socially unaceptable, yet happens pretty regularly. On the other hand i don't think it's common at all to hate someone while murdering someone else whom you presumably used to hate but don't anymore... though not impossible, just very cruel and unusual behaviour.

The difference between feelings and actions is that actions have very clear consequences. Both social and legal.

Sei'taer
01-31-2012, 11:32 AM
The hard shit still comes up - all the time

Floaters are better. That's how you know you're eating right. It should be easy to go and it should float. If it's hard then you need to check what you're eating.

Crispin's Crispian
01-31-2012, 11:50 AM
The difference between love and marriage is the same as between hate and murder, except murder usually lasts less than an average marriage.


Have you ever considered writing sonnets, or greeting cards? This sentiment got my eyes all watery.

The difference between feelings and actions is that actions have very clear consequences. Both social and legal.
Marriage is a legal contract between two people, but also a social contract between the couple and the rest of the world. While it is 100% accurate to say that you can love and be committed to someone without marriage, marriage does add an additional social stricture on the couple beyond the legalities. An unmarried woman will always been seen as more available than a married woman*, no matter how committed she is to her SO. Similarly, a married man is normally viewed as off-limits to other women, though my hunch is that if women know a man is otherwise committed they will be far less likely to go after him.

But even beyond that, a marriage is an outward sign of commitment. You're telling everyone in the world in a very explicit way that you have chosen to be together. It's more than just a piece of paper dictating property and medical rights.

For what it's worth, I think going into a marriage thinking, "Well, I can always get an annulment/divorce if it doesn't work out," is a tad ridiculous. Don't bother getting married with that attitude. I have no problem with being realistic--people change over time--but this seems way too casual.



*(Don't get me wrong--many men don't care if she's married or not--they'll still go after her. Some even prefer pursuing married women.)

yks 6nnetu hing
01-31-2012, 12:07 PM
Have you ever considered writing sonnets, or greeting cards? This sentiment got my eyes all watery.


Marriage is a legal contract between two people, but also a social contract between the couple and the rest of the world. While it is 100% accurate to say that you can love and be committed to someone without marriage, marriage does add an additional social stricture on the couple beyond the legalities. An unmarried woman will always been seen as more available than a married woman*, no matter how committed she is to her SO. Similarly, a married man is normally viewed as off-limits to other women, though my hunch is that if women know a man is otherwise committed they will be far less likely to go after him.

But even beyond that, a marriage is an outward sign of commitment. You're telling everyone in the world in a very explicit way that you have chosen to be together. It's more than just a piece of paper dictating property and medical rights.

For what it's worth, I think going into a marriage thinking, "Well, I can always get an annulment/divorce if it doesn't work out," is a tad ridiculous. Don't bother getting married with that attitude. I have no problem with being realistic--people change over time--but this seems way too casual.



*(Don't get me wrong--many men don't care if she's married or not--they'll still go after her. Some even prefer pursuing married women.) murdering someone is also a sign to the community with regards to your feelings, and society will treat you accordingly.

I suppose in the western world there is the difference that marriage can legally only occur between consenting adults while there's no such restriction for murder.

Again, I'd very much like to live in the ideal world where marriages never break and love lasts forever... but seeing as i don't, i don't see any reason not to treat the world as it is rather than as i would wish it to be.

ETA: sorry Un for bringing murder in your thread. I wish everyone to be happy, if they can. If marriage after having asked permission of your GF's best suitable relative makes you happy, then i wish for your marriage to last forever!

Ivhon
01-31-2012, 02:31 PM
The hard stuff still comes up - all the time -

MY turn!!

Not a problem as long as it doesn't stay up for more than 4 hours....in which case, he needs to see a doctor

Crispin's Crispian
01-31-2012, 04:05 PM
murdering someone is also a sign to the community with regards to your feelings, and society will treat you accordingly.Oh sorry--I wasn't disagreeing with your juxtaposition. I just thought it was too sentimental and corny. ;)

Again, I'd very much like to live in the ideal world where marriages never break and love lasts forever... but seeing as i don't, i don't see any reason not to treat the world as it is rather than as i would wish it to be.

I know what you're saying. I guess I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that marriage is supposed to be a lifetime thing, so if you go into it with a casual attitude you're setting yourself up for failure. But I also see the practical side: if you're just looking for contractual arrangements, marriage makes those easier by default than writing up a bunch of papers with a lawyer.

DaiShan1981
01-31-2012, 04:19 PM
It must seem like I supply all the romance in our relationship :)
While I can be quite romantic at times (or so I like to think), it's definitely not a one-sided thing. I couldn't possibly wish for a sweeter and more devoted woman in my life. Adding marriage to our relationship won't add or subtract anything from that.

I think Yks was right to focus on the legal and technical side of things, especially in this case, where we were discussing whether or not to get married (or at least that's where the discussion turned to, in part), with all legal hooplah it brings, as opposed to whether or not Unreasoner should be with his girl or not, which is much more a question of love than one of contractual obligations.

[EDIT]: also, Crispian (still feels weird to say that), I think I've actually read studies that show women are MORE attracted to men wearing wedding rings than men without them. Something to do with willingness to commit to a serious relationship or something. I don't remember the specifics or validity though, maybe I can google long enough to find it.

Crispin's Crispian
01-31-2012, 06:10 PM
[EDIT]: also, Crispian (still feels weird to say that), I think I've actually read studies that show women are MORE attracted to men wearing wedding rings than men without them. Something to do with willingness to commit to a serious relationship or something. I don't remember the specifics or validity though, maybe I can google long enough to find it.

Oh, I'm way more attractive than when I was single. ;) But that's the point. Attraction or not, the ring is supposed to act as an "off-market" symbol.

Davian93
01-31-2012, 06:13 PM
Oh, I'm way more attractive than when I was single. ;) But that's the point. Attraction or not, the ring is supposed to act as an "off-market" symbol.

Much like getting another job, its much easier to find another partner when you already have a girlfriend/wife.

yks 6nnetu hing
02-01-2012, 03:54 AM
I know what you're saying. I guess I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that marriage is supposed to be a lifetime thing, so if you go into it with a casual attitude you're setting yourself up for failure. But I also see the practical side: if you're just looking for contractual arrangements, marriage makes those easier by default than writing up a bunch of papers with a lawyer. in my case, it's not that I'm new-fashioned (what is the opposite of old-fashioned in this case?) but rather, I don't particularly fancy going through an already emontionally painful break-up with all the added legal and financial hassle, therefore I would like to make as sure as possible that the relationship is solid enough that the chance of such a break-up happening is infinitesimal.

It must seem like I supply all the romance in our relationship :)

:p Marriage isn't particularly romantic. a wedding, a candle-lit dinner for two, a vacation in Paris, a long lazy weekend together- those things are romantic. But marriage in and of itself, not necessarily.

Ishara
02-01-2012, 08:02 AM
[EDIT]: also, Crispian (still feels weird to say that), I think I've actually read studies that show women are MORE attracted to men wearing wedding rings than men without them. Something to do with willingness to commit to a serious relationship or something. I don't remember the specifics or validity though, maybe I can google long enough to find it.
I still call him SDog, for what it's worth. He may not like it, but he'll always be SDog to me!

:p Marriage isn't particularly romantic. a wedding, a candle-lit dinner for two, a vacation in Paris, a long lazy weekend together- those things are romantic. But marriage in and of itself, not necessarily.

ROFL - You got it in one! That's exactly it. Some things are inherently romantic, and some you have to work for. But just as marriage isn't inherently romantic, neither is a "regular" relationship. Both require effort.

Ivhon
02-01-2012, 10:56 AM
I still call him SDog, for what it's worth. He may not like it, but he'll always be SDog to me!

Once a Muttley, always a Muttley...