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Abbaaddon
01-31-2012, 08:35 AM
First of all, I'd like to apologize if this question has alreday been raised before, but I cannot go through all the forum to see if it has been.

My point here is Ishy/Moridin's fate and his relation with Rand.
When I read the thread about the bond between Rand and Moridin, it struck me that they could talk like that, almost having a "pleasant" talk as if nothing was wrong. As far as I can remember, he is the only one who joined the Shadow whose choice was not motived by jealousy anger or whatever, but by pure logic.
What is nice with logic is that it can be changed with reason.

I realize it is not a very precise thought but what i would like to say is that I think Moridin could be brought back in the Light's camp.
It is motivated by my incredible romantic and weebly-wobly need to see things fixed right.
And as I love this character I don't want to see him die (^^)


One thing that, IMO, goes in favor of my theory is that they had this calm talk. Could you imagine the reaction of Demandred if Rand interrupted his dreams ? He'd throw balefire right away...

Rand and Ishy don't seem to hate each other as Demandred or Sammael would.
Then again, I know this is a bit far fetched but when it comes to Moridin, I can't think reasonably ^^.

To fit in the topic (sorry for my digression), the question is : do you think Moridin could be convinced to join the Light's camp ?

Ishara
01-31-2012, 08:48 AM
Is RAFO too trite? ;)

Abbaaddon
01-31-2012, 08:53 AM
Well, I could not blame you for telling me that, but what I would like is your thoughts about it, or a link to an article if it had already been discussed =)

Ishara
01-31-2012, 12:05 PM
Okay then - moved to a new thread for discussion!

TLers - what do you think?

eht slat meit
01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.

Weiramon
01-31-2012, 01:36 PM
I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.

For the last time, let's be clear that logic and reason do not carry an arguement - an appeal to authority trumps them every time. If a lord disagrees with a High Lord, clearly the High Lord is correct.

Davian93
01-31-2012, 01:46 PM
I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.


Perhaps Moridin simply hasnt read the Fountainhead yet...

Grig
01-31-2012, 02:06 PM
In fairness, it was impressive that Richard Rahl was able to make money by buying lumber for cheap and selling it for more than he bought it for. It was like magic, because he did so without doing anything illegal (except smuggling, anyway)! It was obvious how such a show of wonder could turn that commie chick into a die hard libertarian.

As for the original topic, I really hope not. Moridin has had thousands of years to observe people being happy, knows the nature of the Wheel and rebirth, and still did not have Rand's epiphany about life being precious etc etc.

Moridin's logic for following the DO is that he will win eventually, so might as well help him out and get the whole thing over with. The only real way to turn him based on that equation would be to demonstrate that the DO could be killed or otherwise defeated (that is, making time not linear. It was somewhat popular in the fandom some decade or two ago, but RJ then indicated there was nothing special about this turning). I doubt that's where RJ was going with his cosmology.

maleshub
01-31-2012, 08:23 PM
The only Foresaken personally connected to LTT is Lanfear. I would think that Rand has the best chance of convincing her, among the remaining Foresaken, to turn back to the light. But even that is a slim chance.

As to Moridin, I think he wanted Rand dead from the start. He tried playing mind games with Rand with his "serve me" junk; but there have been too many Ba'alz attempts to kill Rand.

eht slat meit
01-31-2012, 08:31 PM
The only Foresaken personally connected to LTT is Lanfear. I would think that Rand has the best chance of convincing her, among the remaining Foresaken, to turn back to the light. But even that is a slim chance.


There are a lot of small hints based on the "bond" narrative that suggest LTT may have had some sort of personal connection to Ishy when he was still just Elan. The references to the Ansaline Gardens, for example, and other things that immediately prompt him to envision Moridin's face.

finnssss
02-01-2012, 01:18 AM
In fairness, it was impressive that Richard Rahl was able to make money by buying lumber for cheap and selling it for more than he bought it for. It was like magic, because he did so without doing anything illegal (except smuggling, anyway)! It was obvious how such a show of wonder could turn that commie chick into a die hard libertarian.

As for the original topic, I really hope not. Moridin has had thousands of years to observe people being happy, knows the nature of the Wheel and rebirth, and still did not have Rand's epiphany about life being precious etc etc.

Moridin's logic for following the DO is that he will win eventually, so might as well help him out and get the whole thing over with. The only real way to turn him based on that equation would be to demonstrate that the DO could be killed or otherwise defeated (that is, making time not linear. It was somewhat popular in the fandom some decade or two ago, but RJ then indicated there was nothing special about this turning). I doubt that's where RJ was going with his cosmology.

Except for Fain/Mordeth and the evil they harbor, who, according to RJ, is indeed unique to this age.
For the first time, we have a 3rd player on the field.

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.


Fain, while crazy as a loon, believes that he can kill the DO and by the way his evil counters the DO's evil, maybe it is possible.

Lupusdeusest
02-01-2012, 03:10 AM
Turnings and Ages are different. Fain is unique to this age, but it's unlikely he is unique to this Turning.

finnssss
02-01-2012, 04:17 AM
Turnings and Ages are different. Fain is unique to this age, but it's unlikely he is unique to this Turning.

That would mean he is part of the pattern, woven before and to be woven again. The "side-stepped the Pattern" comment seems to suggest otherwise.

As well as another comment from another signing where RJ conveyed "That Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably"

Dajoran
02-01-2012, 05:00 AM
Based on Moridin's logic and reasoning to join the Shadow, it is impossible for Rand to turn him to the light.

Unless Rand is able to provide a nifty piece of inductive reasoning in aMoL - his own argument for not just tearing the whole world apart was 'Love' in that 'a chance to love again' is a belief - it is faith, and blind faith at that. (Unless, like Rand, you are a man who gets women like I get backaches.)

He says it quite simply himself an emotion and 'a chance' - a gamble removes any pure logic; emotion removes any nature of an analytical reason. His argument is a priori as he does have previous experience in this matter; but for Moridin - a man of pure reason, this would not be enough.

Moridin made his decision to join the Shadow using what I assume as a lovely piece of inductive reasoning - mostly prop calc, I can see Moridin loving prop calc... the sadistic b... - I mostly get this from his actions as well as the titles of his books. He was a Philosopher focused on the greater meaning of existance as a person - and at a pattern level.

What makes Moridin eleventybillion times less likely to go to the light is that he joined the Shadow on the basis that the Shadow only needs to win once. This isn't a man that sold his soul for immortality/ a kingdom/ because the other teachers laughed at him.
This is a man who signed away his entire pattern level existence. By reasoning this out - it isn't a leap for him to realise that he probably did this before - (I'm sure the DO would have confirmed it, in a way that I hope was like: 'Hey man, haven't seen your sorry ass soul in a couple of ages - how you been?").

Long story short - for a man who signed his thread away on the basis of a win whenever, the possiblity that someone might love him. Not enough... even if those veins were 24k.

Abbaaddon
02-01-2012, 06:18 AM
Well, I clearly didn't expect RJ to launch a character out of the blue that could love Moridin and make him return on the Light Side of the Force.
As I said, I have some affection to this character and that's what motivated this topic.
As many of you I highly doubt he'll change sides, but it is one hell of naive hope that's on my mind for a very long time ^^

finnssss
02-01-2012, 08:27 AM
Based on Moridin's logic and reasoning to join the Shadow, it is impossible for Rand to turn him to the light.

Unless Rand is able to provide a nifty piece of inductive reasoning in aMoL - his own argument for not just tearing the whole world apart was 'Love' in that 'a chance to love again' is a belief - it is faith, and blind faith at that. (Unless, like Rand, you are a man who gets women like I get backaches.)

He says it quite simply himself an emotion and 'a chance' - a gamble removes any pure logic; emotion removes any nature of an analytical reason. His argument is a priori as he does have previous experience in this matter; but for Moridin - a man of pure reason, this would not be enough.

Moridin made his decision to join the Shadow using what I assume as a lovely piece of inductive reasoning - mostly prop calc, I can see Moridin loving prop calc... the sadistic b... - I mostly get this from his actions as well as the titles of his books. He was a Philosopher focused on the greater meaning of existance as a person - and at a pattern level.

What makes Moridin eleventybillion times less likely to go to the light is that he joined the Shadow on the basis that the Shadow only needs to win once. This isn't a man that sold his soul for immortality/ a kingdom/ because the other teachers laughed at him.
This is a man who signed away his entire pattern level existence. By reasoning this out - it isn't a leap for him to realise that he probably did this before - (I'm sure the DO would have confirmed it, in a way that I hope was like: 'Hey man, haven't seen your sorry ass soul in a couple of ages - how you been?").

Long story short - for a man who signed his thread away on the basis of a win whenever, the possiblity that someone might love him. Not enough... even if those veins were 24k.

Moridin's logic is based on the premise that the DO can't be killed though.
He seems to be the only one that knows that if the DO wins, everything ends and that's what he wants, a close to his endless cycle.


It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?

If you believe that the DO can be killed, that makes Moridin's logic flawed and opens up the possibility of his "returning to the light".

If you do not believe the DO can be killed, then Moridin is right and nothing changes for him.

GonzoTheGreat
02-01-2012, 08:36 AM
Well, there is the second question: can the DO win?
If your answer to that is a clear no, then turning to the Shadow wouldn't have all that many eternally lasting benefits, so then it might make sense to support the Light too.

Of course, we don't actually know that it is impossible for him to win, so the best thing would be to hedge your bets and go with whatever side at that time is making you the best offer. Which, in turn, seems to mean that Asmodean was the most rational character in the whole series by far.
Logic is a wonderful tool.

Dajoran
02-01-2012, 08:50 AM
Well, I clearly didn't expect RJ to launch a character out of the blue that could love Moridin and make him return on the Light Side of the Force.
As I said, I have some affection to this character and that's what motivated this topic.
As many of you I highly doubt he'll change sides, but it is one hell of naive hope that's on my mind for a very long time ^^

It's not a naive hope at all - there are always possibilities out there. For example, I knew at some point we had to get the 'Dark Rand' story arc, but never did I think it was going to end with him on the cusp of cracking the world in two.

He's a favorite of mine also - especially in regards from his 'transformation' from generic Head on Fire bad guy into a logic driven, so-crazy-he-is-more-sane-than-us-all Philosopher.


Moridin's logic is based on the premise that the DO can't be killed though.
He seems to be the only one that knows that if the DO wins, everything ends and that's what he wants, a close to his endless cycle.

It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?

If you believe that the DO can be killed, that makes Moridin's logic flawed and opens up the possibility of his "returning to the light".

If you do not believe the DO can be killed, then Moridin is right and nothing changes for him.

But it becomes moot when you realise that if the Dark One can indeed be killed. I doubt that Rand is going to run off and tell the Nae'blis.

If he does, in an unanticipated need to turn him back to Elan, he runs the risk of just displaying his winning hand to Moridin... and with him being kinda crazy and all that, letting the Shadow know whats coming up.

Grig
02-01-2012, 10:11 AM
It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?

No, he can't. That would kill the circularity of the Wheel. Multiple Ages hinge on the current state of the Dark One. To kill the Dark One would result in a completely different set of Ages (or a single everlasting Age, I suppose, which was an older theory).

Since we're going with quotes:

RJ -
I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

The lack of the Dark One wouldn't be a "minor change you can only see close up".

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

There are also quotes about how the pattern will repeat unless the DO breaks free -- if it was possible to kill him, you'd think that would be provided as another alternative. But I couldn't find anything concise enough to want to copy-paste it here.

Quotes are pulled from the interview database.

Abbaaddon
02-01-2012, 12:28 PM
@Dajoran: I don't know how to explain it, but since he returned as Moridin he acted very strangely compared to the other Forsaken. He is not driven by ambition because, I think, he knows what will happen once the DO breaks free. He does not seek to rule some kingdoms- at least no as openly as Rhavin, Sammael and co did.
He does not seem to be driven by hate either, so that lets me with the feeling there is something odd about him. Not to mention the fact that the DO brought him back to life AND named him Nae'Blis, whereas for the other, a punition followed very quickly the reincarnation.
There is one theory I read in the fan fictions in which Rand managed to counter the DO's evil by opposing him Fain's. In a way that could mean defeating him, without killing him but ensuring a certain safety for the future turns of the wheel, if we measured Fain's evil at its proper scale.
As I said before, it is still very confused but with your comments, I think I'm gettint to something more precise =)

Crispin's Crispian
02-01-2012, 02:30 PM
@Dajoran: I don't know how to explain it, but since he returned as Moridin he acted very strangely compared to the other Forsaken. He is not driven by ambition because, I think, he knows what will happen once the DO breaks free. He does not seek to rule some kingdoms- at least no as openly as Rhavin, Sammael and co did.
He does not seem to be driven by hate either, so that lets me with the feeling there is something odd about him. Not to mention the fact that the DO brought him back to life AND named him Nae'Blis, whereas for the other, a punition followed very quickly the reincarnation.


Well, you could approach it from a foreshadowing perspective. For example, many people think the whole "Sheating the Sword" moment wasn't actually when Isha'mael stabbed Rand in TGH, but is still to come. That moment was a minor foreshadowing of Rand's actual "suicide by bad guy."

You might apply the same logic to Ingtar's plotline in TGH. So far, Ingtar is really the only Darkfriend who has turned back to the Light, which is a little odd considering it was such a big theme in TGH. In that sense, then, we might expect another more important character to turn from Dark to Light. Since there are only a few important Shadowsworn left, are choices are pretty narrow.

I'm of two minds. I do believe that Cyndane will be redeemed, probably in some last act of "love" that saves Rand. But I also think there's a chance Moridin could realize his error. If that happens, it will be at the last moment as he's dying and facing oblivion. Tragic. We'll finally seem some real emotion from the guy.

Dajoran
02-02-2012, 09:33 AM
@Dajoran: I don't know how to explain it, but since he returned as Moridin he acted very strangely compared to the other Forsaken. He is not driven by ambition because, I think, he knows what will happen once the DO breaks free. He does not seek to rule some kingdoms- at least no as openly as Rhavin, Sammael and co did.
He does not seem to be driven by hate either, so that lets me with the feeling there is something odd about him. Not to mention the fact that the DO brought him back to life AND named him Nae'Blis, whereas for the other, a punition followed very quickly the reincarnation.

Very good points - he has changed to a degree since his re-sleeving.

A lot of people put this down to his absurdly huge TP use prior to his first death making him the craziest of all the crazies; so his new body has afforded him some semblance of sanity for the time being.

This may be the whole solution, or just a factor in what has changed.

I suppose the crux of this is all down to what he experienced during his floaty dead time. Did he experience some form of the T'A'R all lives in one thingy. Or was there nothing for him.

He mentions a lot about his being the yang to Rand's yin in past ages. Some have placed this as a sign of his madness - his belief that he really is the Dark One... but when I read it, the illusion of that much grandure disappeared when he became Moridin and Nae'blis.

My question is - how much of what he believes about his own past lives is from a knowledge gained from the well named 'Father of Lies' and how much has he gleaned himself from his death-non-death.

It would be interesting to find that if Moridin is unknowingly telling the truth, if he is always reborn into this world at the time of the Dragon... is he always an advocate of the Shadow?

And more to the point - would it be this evidence that he isn't always pre-ordained to join the Dark One that would make him flip sides?

Grig
02-02-2012, 10:44 AM
It would be interesting to find that if Moridin is unknowingly telling the truth, if he is always reborn into this world at the time of the Dragon... is he always an advocate of the Shadow?

And more to the point - would it be this evidence that he isn't always pre-ordained to join the Dark One that would make him flip sides?

Moridin is too philosophical to assume that he's pre-ordained to join the Dark One. Just like he knows that the Dragon isn't pre-ordained to join the Light (and he is sure they were both on the Dark side on some previous turnings). He just thinks that the Dark One will win eventually, since the DO vs. Pattern battle is lopsided (the Pattern's champions need to win every single time, whereas the Dark One only needs to win once to have total victory).

Dajoran
02-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Moridin is too philosophical to assume that he's pre-ordained to join the Dark One. Just like he knows that the Dragon isn't pre-ordained to join the Light (and he is sure they were both on the Dark side on some previous turnings). He just thinks that the Dark One will win eventually, since the DO vs. Pattern battle is lopsided (the Pattern's champions need to win every single time, whereas the Dark One only needs to win once to have total victory).


Actually, the Dragon is always on the side of the light. The times that he has been (if he actually has been...) on the side of the Shadow is those times that Ishamael claims he was able to make him serve.

Also, given the advanced knowledge of the time and the assumed knowledge they had of the Horn and T'A'R - in the nature of souls attached to the Wheel - LTT and the Dragon soul - Birgitte always being an archer and tied to Gaidal - Shivan and Calian appearing at the beginning of an age... etc. It would not be logically incorrect for Ishamael as Elan to come to the conclusion that he is preordained to join the shadow.

This is, of course, is tied into the fact that as Ishamael, he thought very, very highly of himself indeed. He play acted as the dark one himself! You can blame this on Saa Madness - but this had to have been a part of his personality prior change.

So we have a man with the knowledge of souls that they had in the AoL. His own complex of self importance - therefore, his idea of his own importance in the scheme of the pattern. We can postulate his line of thought:

P1 - Souls are intrinsically linked to a preordained type.
P2 - I am a member of Team Shadow (GO SHADOW!!!)
---
C - I am always going to be drawn to the Shadow.

This is a basic form of inductive reasoning. I cannot claim to know where in our own Philosophy standard the AoL was - but this form of logic matches that which made him choose the Shadow in the first place - so logically I would deduce that this is the form he uses for most of his thoughts.

Grig
02-02-2012, 12:31 PM
Actually, the Dragon is always on the side of the light. The times that he has been (if he actually has been...) on the side of the Shadow is those times that Ishamael claims he was able to make him serve.

Uh, if he's serving the Shadow, how is he on the side of the Light? I really don't understand the nuance you're trying to point out here.

Birgitte always being an archer

Birgitte has used a sword. It turns out poorly for her. But it's not like she's born with a bow in hand. She chooses archery because it's what she's best at.

tied to Gaidal

Is she still tied to Gaidal after what Moggy did? Hmm. The Pattern ties souls in certain ways, but the whole point of the Dark One as an entity is the undoing of the pattern (which Ishamael contributes to every time he uses the True Power). Thinking he holds the doings of the Wheel as sacrosanct seems bizarre in this light.

It would not be logically incorrect for Ishamael as Elan to come to the conclusion that he is preordained to join the shadow.

Sure it would. We've been given no indication that he does not believe in free will. If he thought he was preordained to join the Shadow and the Dragon preordained to join the Light, he wouldn't have spent the better part of 12 books trying to convert Rand into Dark Rand. The only "destiny" that Moridin appears to believe in is that since the Dark One only has to win once to break the Wheel and have his way, it's going to happen sooner or later. Might as well speed up the process and quit struggling futilely.

P1 - Souls are intrinsically linked to a preordained type.
P2 - I am a member of Team Shadow (GO SHADOW!!!)
---
C - I am always going to be drawn to the Shadow.

P1 - Souls are intrinsically linked to a preordained type.
P2 - LTT fought the Shadow.
---
C - LTT is always going to fight the Shadow.

We know that Ishydin explicitly claims that the Dragon Soul hasn't always fought on the side of the Light. Hell, one of Moiraine's possible futures had even this Dragon incarnation serving the Shadow. So he's clearly not using reasoning of the form you're postulating. Ishy being a likely candidate for a Dreamer (or so Sanderson has hinted), he's clearly knowledgeable of the different paths souls in play could take.

but this form of logic matches that which made him choose the Shadow in the first place

Where are you getting this from? The only "logic" Ishydin has gone on the record for to explain his supporting the Shadow is "struggle if you want, you might even win this time around, but sooner or later on some spinning of the Wheel the Dark One will win". That's literally it. Anything else you're pulling from your posterior and pretending it was written in the books.

Zombie Sammael
02-02-2012, 12:53 PM
Actually, the Dragon is always on the side of the light. The times that he has been (if he actually has been...) on the side of the Shadow is those times that Ishamael claims he was able to make him serve.

The Dragon is not always on the side of the Light:

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?
RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Q: (inaudible)
RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

I'm not sure whether what you meant to say was that The Dragon is always the Champion of the Light, which RJ seems to suggest in that second quote, or if perhaps you meant that when he's gone over it's because he's been turned by 13x13, i.e. he wasn't a willing participant. As to that second, there is some evidence that that isn't the case:



Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carrried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

You could make the argument that Lanfear compelled Rand or turned him to the Shadow in that other path, and perhaps in all turnings where The Dragon went over because of her. No doubt there is a certain amount of coercion involved whenever Lanfear succeeds in corrupting The Dragon, but note also that TFOH was when Rand was in the early stages of the Lews Therin delusion, a delusion Lanfear could prey upon without needing to compel him with the Power.

Also note that in the one scenario we are sure of where The Dragon went over, it was because of Lanfear, not Ishamael. And at the end of TOM, we see Rand encounter Mierin once again, this time as Cyndane, and she pleads with him for rescue. Hmmmmm.

Abbaaddon
02-02-2012, 01:38 PM
There is one thing that troubled me, when you talked about the time where he was dead as Ishy and not yet reborn as Moridin. Can somebody clarifies for me the chronology of these events ? Did Lanfear went through the ter'angreal with Moiraine before Ishy was reborn ? Because, if I can remember correctly, Moiraine told Mat that someone went to look for Lanfear in the Tower of Ghenjei. Could it be possible that Moridin used his "desincarnated" form to get there ? Could he also ask for the same "services" as anyone going through the portal ?
(It can seem unrelated to the topic, but this event struck me as hard as a hammer and I was like "how could have I missed that ?" ...) Sorry again if my thoughts are going everywhere, I'm just too excited to share them with you ^^

missbee
02-02-2012, 01:58 PM
Moridin doesn't appear till ACOS ch 25 when Moghedien finds herself mindtrapped - about a 100 days after Lanfear was tackled through that doorframe . But there is nothing to say when he was given his new body, he may well have had already by the time he went to get her

Zombie Sammael
02-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Moridin doesn't appear till ACOS ch 25 when Moghedien finds herself mindtrapped - about a 100 days after Lanfear was tackled through that doorframe . But there is nothing to say when he was given his new body, he may well have had already by the time he went to get her

I seem to recall that there is some evidence suggesting he was recycled as early as the start of LOC. That may just be someone's Mazrim Taim theory, though. I'll have a poke around, see what I can come up with.

UPDATE: I at least have discovered that he appeared slightly earlier than you thought, in ACOS 20, as the Watcher, observing Sammael and Graendal's meeting with Sevanna.

Dajoran
02-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Uh, if he's serving the Shadow, how is he on the side of the Light? I really don't understand the nuance you're trying to point out here.

As ZS pointed out above - I may have worded it wrong; however, the intrinsic meaning was that the Dragon soul is generated into the pattern as a
tool for the light - if it has served the Shadow it is because it is turned, but it always begins as a servant of Light. Hence my phrasing "made him serve".

Birgitte has used a sword. It turns out poorly for her. But it's not like she's born with a bow in hand. She chooses archery because it's what she's best at.

Which makes her an archer?

I know she isn't born with one in hand - I know little about midwifery, but I am sure that would be painful.

I will find the quote, but she does always seem to end up with a bow.

Is she still tied to Gaidal after what Moggy did? Hmm. The Pattern ties souls in certain ways, but the whole point of the Dark One as an entity is the undoing of the pattern (which Ishamael contributes to every time he uses the True Power). Thinking he holds the doings of the Wheel as sacrosanct seems bizarre in this light.

Yes. She is. Min's viewing's are of course dependant on the pattern surviving - but if it does:

“Besides, those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than one woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.”


Sure it would. We've been given no indication that he does not believe in free will.
We also haven't been given any indication that he does either? I say it would not be incorrect - that does not mean it's the absolute truth.

If he thought he was preordained to join the Shadow and the Dragon preordained to join the Light, he wouldn't have spent the better part of 12 books trying to convert Rand into Dark Rand. The only "destiny" that Moridin appears to believe in is that since the Dark One only has to win once to break the Wheel and have his way, it's going to happen sooner or later. Might as well speed up the process and quit struggling futilely.

I'm sorry again, this is based off of my bad wording. Just because you are preordained to join something does not mean you cannot be turned. As is obviously laid out in the books.

P1 - Souls are intrinsically linked to a preordained type.
P2 - LTT fought the Shadow.
---
C - LTT is always going to fight the Shadow.

This is correct. I don't know why you are using this as an argument against me?

We know that Ishydin explicitly claims that the Dragon Soul hasn't always fought on the side of the Light. Hell, one of Moiraine's possible futures had even this Dragon incarnation serving the Shadow. So he's clearly not using reasoning of the form you're postulating. Ishy being a likely candidate for a Dreamer (or so Sanderson has hinted), he's clearly knowledgeable of the different paths souls in play could take.

Again - a possible future, this does not negate that the Dragon was born to serve the light.

Where are you getting this from? The only "logic" Ishydin has gone on the record for to explain his supporting the Shadow is "struggle if you want, you might even win this time around, but sooner or later on some spinning of the Wheel the Dark One will win". That's literally it. Anything else you're pulling from your posterior and pretending it was written in the books.

Okay, I'm being kind up until this point, but I thought this was Theoryland. Not Whatwaswritteninthebooksland. I don't know why you feel the need to be that hostile; I never claimed any of what I wrote was in the books. I don't see any Chapter tags or quotes surrounding what I said?

Anyway, what you so succinctly describe is logic, friend. I pointed it out if you happened to even read anything I wrote. Ishamael, as you point out, on the basis of the Dark One only needing to break free once, used what we call Logic to conclude that the only reasonable conclusion to the Wheel is the Dark One breaking free.

It is called Inductive Logic you must know it, you tried to argue with me using it. If, as you argued a few posts ago with your own amazing character knowledge that Ishamael "is too philosophical", then by definition he would approach these choices with the same thought processes that gained him his third name in the AoL.



PS. Thanks ZS for clarifing what I meant.

missbee
02-02-2012, 04:23 PM
I seem to recall that there is some evidence suggesting he was recycled as early as the start of LOC. That may just be someone's Mazrim Taim theory, though. I'll have a poke around, see what I can come up with.

UPDATE: I at least have discovered that he appeared slightly earlier than you thought, in ACOS 20, as the Watcher, observing Sammael and Graendal's meeting with Sevanna.

Dammit, a day out!
You're right though, I forgot about that one.
I'd be interested to hear that other evidence if it exists.

Grig
02-02-2012, 05:26 PM
As ZS pointed out above - I may have worded it wrong; however, the intrinsic meaning was that the Dragon soul is generated into the pattern as a tool for the light - if it has served the Shadow it is because it is turned, but it always begins as a servant of Light.

So little baby Ishamael was born a servant of the Shadow? You should have told that to his colleagues at the Age of Legends, before the Dark one was even broken out. And is his thread not woven out when the Dark One is unknown to the world? Or does he decide at some point in some (probably many) weavings to turn to the Shadow?

Yes. She is. Min's viewing's are of course dependant on the pattern surviving - but if it does:

That was just idle musing (I was familiar with the quote, by the way). The important point I was making is the portion that you quoted but ignored. The Dark One desires destruction of the Pattern. Ishydin actively contributes to tearing the pattern apart every time he does anything with the Power, since he uses the TP independently. Why would he hold what the Pattern chooses to weave as sacrosanct (that is, that he's "born to be Evil") when his every action is calculated to actively tear the Pattern apart? That shows that he recognizes (and in fact, condones and actively works towards) mutating the Pattern into ways other than that the Wheel desires.

We also haven't been given any indication that he does either?

The fact that he actively tries to turn the Champion of the Light to the Dark Side suggests otherwise.

I'm sorry again, this is based off of my bad wording. Just because you are preordained to join something does not mean you cannot be turned.

Great, then Ishydin knows that just because he's preordained to serve the Dark One doesn't mean he can't do otherwise (as evidenced by his constant attempt to get the Light's preordained champion to bat for the other team). Doesn't this sort of invalidate your whole point about how his Logic says he's bound to serve the Dark One, and all he needs is to be convinced otherwise to be turned to the Light?

This is correct. I don't know why you are using this as an argument against me?

Because as provided in this thread, Word of God says otherwise. The Dragon Soul has batted for the other team in past turnings of the Wheel.

Again - a possible future, this does not negate that the Dragon was born to serve the light.

Great, so you concur that Ishamael knows that it's possible for a soul to do something other than what they are "born to do"? What was your point again?

Okay, I'm being kind up until this point, but I thought this was Theoryland. Not Whatwaswritteninthebooksland.

You're new here, aren't you? Yes, Theoryland, where one uses what is in the book to postulate as to what is coming up, or to try and figure out other in-universe happenings that may have happened offscreen but otherwise fit with what is in the books. Were you perhaps thinking it was fanfiction.net?

I don't know why you feel the need to be that hostile; I never claimed any of what I wrote was in the books. I don't see any Chapter tags or quotes surrounding what I said?

You were postulating that Ishamael is using a certain type of logic (and no, I don't mean inductive reasoning, I'm referring to the premises and conclusions you think he draws from them). I was pointing out that that is not consistent with his behavior. If you're going to respond, you might want to stick to the point instead of explaining Philosophy 090. Just because you write a syollogism and refer to it as logic doesn't make either the premises or the conclusion correct, which is where the meat of my disagreement was. To go back to what I first responded to:

And more to the point - would it be this evidence that he isn't always pre-ordained to join the Dark One that would make him flip sides?

This assumes that Moridin joined the Shadow because he knows he's pre-ordained (trying to use this word in the sense you are) to join the Dark One. This is just odd because it's not a logical course of action. If I know I'm for some reason pre-ordained to fall off a bridge, that's not really a good reason to jump off a bridge. I'd rather just cross that bridge when it comes (heh). Besides, Ishy already hinted at his reasons for serving - that is, the already discussed knowledge that the Dark One just has to win once. That, on the other hand, is logical, in a sort of Pascal's Wager sense (not a precise comparison). The DO just needs to win once. It's inevitable that sooner or later he will win. Might as well help him end things. Maybe he'll decide to reward you, but don't get your hopes up on that.

Not to mention that as already discussed, he knows personally (and has alluded to in text several times) that it's possible for pre-ordained souls to go against their calling, so it seems unlikely that being introduced to that fact would result in him going against his pre-ordained position, since it's something he already knows and has been actively trying to induce.

Dajoran
02-03-2012, 08:07 AM
So little baby Ishamael was born a servant of the Shadow? You should have told that to his colleagues at the Age of Legends, before the Dark one was even broken out. And is his thread not woven out when the Dark One is unknown to the world? Or does he decide at some point in some (probably many) weavings to turn to the Shadow?

I’m going to attempt to clarify my meaning here. But yes, is it hard to assume that a soul can harbor intent? It is the intent of the Dragon soul that has led to the pattern choosing it for a specific rebirth. It is the intent of Gaidal and Birgitte that always make them seek each other out. And yes Ishamael could be born with the intent that always would make him predispositioned to join the shadow.

Also, of course it could be the case that his soul is only spun out when the Dark One is abound in an age. Age 2 and 3 we get the Dark One. This could be the predicate that makes the Pattern spin out Ishamael also. We already have evidence that some rebirths occur at specific points in the patterns turning. Shivan and Calian for example. Ishamael has said himself that he always faces off against the Dragon soul. If we are to believe him, then why can this not be the case?

That was just idle musing (I was familiar with the quote, by the way). The important point I was making is the portion that you quoted but ignored. The Dark One desires destruction of the Pattern. Ishydin actively contributes to tearing the pattern apart every time he does anything with the Power, since he uses the TP independently. Why would he hold what the Pattern chooses to weave as sacrosanct (that is, that he's "born to be Evil") when his every action is calculated to actively tear the Pattern apart? That shows that he recognizes (and in fact, condones and actively works towards) mutating the Pattern into ways other than that the Wheel desires.


I apologise for the misreading – but the example you used did not at all lend to your point.

Is Moridin holding to the patterns choice for himself, or is he using his nature to end what he sees as an illogical cycle of repetition. If you were born to repeat the same actions over and over (which is not a mystical concept for people born in a world where they know the concept of the wheel and ages) would you not be inclined to end the cycle by assisting in its destruction?

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."
He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure.

The fact that he actively tries to turn the Champion of the Light to the Dark Side suggests otherwise.

This suggests basic day to day free will. I am arguing the concept of a Pattern Level phenomenon. We do not know Ishamael’s true thoughts regarding this, we can only speculate.

Great, then Ishydin knows that just because he's preordained to serve the Dark One doesn't mean he can't do otherwise (as evidenced by his constant attempt to get the Light's preordained champion to bat for the other team). Doesn't this sort of invalidate your whole point about how his Logic says he's bound to serve the Dark One, and all he needs is to be convinced otherwise to be turned to the Light?

Not really, the point I am trying to get across is about intent. I was creating a discourse between myself and Abbaddon on the basis of this thread. Somehow, this offends you.

Because as provided in this thread, Word of God says otherwise. The Dragon Soul has batted for the other team in past turnings of the Wheel.

Because he was turned from the light. This did not occur prior to his rebirth, while his soul was in T'A'R, or in the womb I assume.

Great, so you concur that Ishamael knows that it's possible for a soul to do something other than what they are "born to do"? What was your point again?

This is my point? Of course a soul can go against its intent. We are trying to figure out by what means Ishamael could be lead away from his soul’s intent?

You're new here, aren't you? Yes, Theoryland, where one uses what is in the book to postulate as to what is coming up, or to try and figure out other in-universe happenings that may have happened offscreen but otherwise fit with what is in the books. Were you perhaps thinking it was fanfiction.net?

I am new here, thank you for your kind welcome. I was responding to how you were fragrantly claiming that I was “pulling [what I was saying ] from [my] posterior and pretending it was written in the books.”

Which if you read what I wrote – I never did.

So at this point I can only assume you are attempting to incite and inflame.

You were postulating that Ishamael is using a certain type of logic (and no, I don't mean inductive reasoning, I'm referring to the premises and conclusions you think he draws from them). I was pointing out that that is not consistent with his behavior.

I see, I am not allowed to postulate. Forgive me. We should just cancel this thread until the last book is out, then we can postulate.

But also, what is consistent with “Ishydin”’s behaviour? His behaviour is not very consistent in itself.

If you're going to respond, you might want to stick to the point instead of explaining Philosophy 090.

I don’t know what ‘Philosophy 090’ is, but judging by your tone in all of your responses to me, I can only imagine it is some form of snarky comment.

Just because you write a syollogism and refer to it as logic doesn't make either the premises or the conclusion correct, which is where the meat of my disagreement was.

Again, I was keeping everything very high level. I have recently just escaped almost a decade of Philosophy study – the last thing I wanted to do was write another dissertation, especially concerning a fictional character in a book.

But seeing as we are attempting to use the correct terms now – I was using a ‘Barbara Syllogism’ in a basic attempt to describe what I assumed were a couple of possible premises that could lead to a possible conclusion. I was not screaming ”look at this World, look at this flawless logic!!!”. But again, this angers you for some reason.


To go back to what I first responded to:

This assumes that Moridin joined the Shadow because he knows he's pre-ordained (trying to use this word in the sense you are) to join the Dark One. This is just odd because it's not a logical course of action. If I know I'm for some reason pre-ordained to fall off a bridge, that's not really a good reason to jump off a bridge. I'd rather just cross that bridge when it comes (heh).

No, it more so assumes that Moridin fell off a bridge and was told by the troll underneath that he always does this. Silly goat.

Besides, Ishy already hinted at his reasons for serving - that is, the already discussed knowledge that the Dark One just has to win once. That, on the other hand, is logical, in a sort of Pascal's Wager sense (not a precise comparison). The DO just needs to win once. It's inevitable that sooner or later he will win. Might as well help him end things. Maybe he'll decide to reward you, but don't get your hopes up on that.

Pascal’s Gambit is a good exploration of his motives – however as you say, it is not precise – it lends it flavor to something more ontological; another inconsistent thing about Moridin, is that he lends too much to the conclusion that the Dark One will inevitably break free, which of course concludes some form of faith in this premise.

Not to mention that as already discussed, he knows personally (and has alluded to in text several times) that it's possible for pre-ordained souls to go against their calling, so it seems unlikely that being introduced to that fact would result in him going against his pre-ordained position, since it's something he already knows and has been actively trying to induce.

Yes, it is possible for a soul to go against my idea of its intent. But also pointed out by the books is that, in most cases, this is due to a forcing of the soul – or an overzealous compulsion.

What we see in the Black Tower are souls that have been forced across by the 13x13 maneuver; also, in the possible future about Lanfear turning Rand he calls himself Lews Therin and calls her his lover. This speaks to a heavy form of compulsion. In both cases the soul is serving the Shadow, but against the will of its original intent.

But of course the point of this thread was to have a discussion on, what would be the possibility of, Ishamael turning to the light. We are free to discuss all methods by which this would occur. I was originally displaying a case by where he could be turned using logic. This would not go against his soul’s intent, but be enough to free him for the Shadow for this turn.

I would ask if you reply again – please hold off on the snark and I would be happy to continue this. Otherwise, it makes you appear like a troll.

Abbaaddon
02-07-2012, 05:12 AM
Sorry to go over that again, but is it Moridin who went to get Lanfear out of the Aelfinn ? If not, who could go there and ask for one of the prisonner ?

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 05:19 AM
Sorry to go over that again, but is it Moridin who went to get Lanfear out of the Aelfinn ? If not, who could go there and ask for one of the prisonner ?

The only other realistic candidate is Slayer, based on a supposed link from his apparent disappearance into the TOG in TAR. It's more likely to be Moridin.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 06:49 AM
Unless Rand is able to provide a nifty piece of inductive reasoning

I don't know if he can*, but Moridin's arguement seems flawed to me. Its like saying that death is certain for everyone but why sign up for death now? If the DO's victory ends in oblivion for all, then Moridin has the most basic reason of all to reject him : survival instinct. Its like Asmodean's man that clung on to a tuft of grass (iirc).

We all cling to hope of another day with new possibilities though we're aware it could happen anytime. So Moridin's position seems to be one absent of all hope. A basic trait of humanity. Of course, Rand could argue that Moridin's position was influenced by the DO. Or at least LTT can take that position though we don't know if its true.

And with LTT being something of a philosopher himself, I suspect the two were well acquainted in aol discussion forums.

E:
* Since Rand isn't LTT. Nor is he the dragon. LTT was and is the dragon not Rand.

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 07:56 AM
I don't know if he can*, but Moridin's arguement seems flawed to me. Its like saying that death is certain for everyone but why sign up for death now? If the DO's victory ends in oblivion for all, then Moridin has the most basic reason of all to reject him : survival instinct. Its like Asmodean's man that clung on to a tuft of grass (iirc).

We all cling to hope of another day with new possibilities though we're aware it could happen anytime. So Moridin's position seems to be one absent of all hope. A basic trait of humanity. Of course, Rand could argue that Moridin's position was influenced by the DO. Or at least LTT can take that position though we don't know if its true.

And with LTT being something of a philosopher himself, I suspect the two were well acquainted in aol discussion forums.

Are you saying LTT and Elan Morin were participants on the AOL equivalent of Theoryland? ;)

Anyway, Moridin's position appears to be a form of reverse utilitarianism; that is the idea that the policy that causes the least amount of suffering to the largest possible number of people should be pursued. Under this thinking, of course, all suffering ends at death, and so destroying mankind completely is the best way to achieve this. The Dark One's presence in the world causes a great deal of suffering, but releasing him would bring this to an end. Further, in an ever-repeating cycle, that suffering will only continue indefinitely, so bringing it to an end via the most expedient route as soon as possible is a desirable goal. The most expedient route (in the world of WOT) is to release the Dark One from his prison, shatter the pattern, break the Wheel, and slay the Great Serpent.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Potential neat trick, though admittedly a loonier left-field theory:

~ Turns out that Ishamael knows about the CoL turning to the DO because Ishamael is a previous incarnation of the DB that gave up his soul to serve, freeing the CoL to be Reborn through future Ages.

Daemin
02-13-2012, 12:43 PM
It is called Inductive Logic you must know it, you tried to argue with me using it. If, as you argued a few posts ago with your own amazing character knowledge that Ishamael "is too philosophical", then by definition he would approach these choices with the same thought processes that gained him his third name in the AoL.


Sorry to nitpick, but this bugged me every time you said it. Syllogisms are deductive logic, not inductive.

Inductive logic is generalization from a set of specific cases to all cases. Deduction preserves and transfers the truth of a set of premises to a conclusion. Completely different things.

Dajoran
02-13-2012, 01:58 PM
Syllogisms are deductive logic, not inductive.

I could nitpick further and start an entire discussion on statistical syllogisms which are of course inductive. Also, how it is a published belief that a major flaw with logicians is, as they move further towards a goal they believe, that the line between what was inductively induced becomes blurred between what they now reason as fact in further arguments.

But I am not here to argue philosophy.

AbbeyRoad
02-13-2012, 06:43 PM
I don't know if he can*, but Moridin's arguement seems flawed to me. Its like saying that death is certain for everyone but why sign up for death now?
Moridin's seems to be a pure nihilist. Given an infinite number of turnings, the ability of the DO to win, and the immortality of the DO, the Light will lose eventually. If you view life in WoT as an eternal war between the DO (+ his forces) and everyone else, no matter how long the war lasts eventually mankind will lose it. It is a statistical inevitability. Therefore, according to Moridin, why struggle eternally to fight a war that is impossible to win? It's not dying that is the problem; everyone dies and is reborn. The problem is that no matter how long you fight, you can never win. Therefore, there is no point in fighting since the only reason for performing an action is the ability to elicit change, which is only possible for the DO in the context of the war. So, why not live a few thousand years doing whatever the hell you want and, as ZS said, end the war now rather than fight it for thousands more years and lose it later. If the DO is the only one who can win, it is in your best interest (according to Moridin) to help the DO as best you can and hope that he might be merciful (even if he is most likely not).

Rand's rebuttal was his VoG epiphany, where he thought that even if you can't win the war, living as long as you can is important in and of itself because life is precious (or something to that effect).