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greatwolf
02-05-2012, 03:11 PM
Suppose it sounds silly, but anyway here goes...

"I heard of such a thing," Bair said, "when I was young and just beginning to learn. Mora, the Wise One of Colrada Hold, trained me, and she said that if the emotion was very strong, love or hate so great it left room for nothing else, you could be drawn in merely by letting yourself be aware of the other’s dream."
"I have never heard anything like that," Melaine said. Amys merely looked doubtful.
"Nor have I from any save Mora," Bair told them, "but she was a remarkable woman. It was said she was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake’s bite, yet she looked as young as either of you. I was only a girl, but I remember her well. She knew many things, and could channel strongly. Other Wise Ones came from every clan to learn from her. I think love so great, or hate so, is very rare, but she said this happened to her twice, once with the first man she married, and once with a rival for her third husband’s interest."
‘Three hundred?" Egwene exclaimed, a soft knee-high boot half-laced. Surely even Aes Sedai did not live that long.
"I said that it was said," Bair replied, smiling. "Some women age more slowly than others, like Amys here, and when it is a woman like Mora, tales are born. Someday I will tell you the story of how Mora moved a mountain. Supposedly, at least."
"Another day?" Melaine said a touch too politely. Plainly she still smarted over whatever had happened in Bael’s dream, and over the fact the others knew. "I heard every tale of Mora when I was a child; I have them all by heart, I think. If Egwene ever finishes dressing, we must see her fed."

Now there's no point to this theory if Mora is dead as this quote seems to make rather obvious. Or does it? First note that Mora's death was sudden and anticlimactic - a 300 year old legend just suddenly dies. If anything, RJ isn't known for such anticlimaxes and its really hard to see any reason the pattern would want to end the life of a strong, skilled channeler just before the start of the series. In fact, the opposite would suit the forces of light and the pattern much better.

Secondly the manner of death.

Look what was here before us," Aviendha,said he let a meek-faced white-robed woman take Jeade'en.
She held up a brown snake, dead, but as thick as his forearm and nearly three paces long. The bloodsnake took
its name from the effect of its bite, turning the blood to jelly in minutes.

It sometimes
seemed that there must be more poisonOus things -snakes, lizards, spiders, plants-in the Waste than in the rest
of the world combined.

While the bloodsnake is lethal, its rather careless for any aiel to fall victim of a predator that's so large and so noteworthy. Much a less one who can channel. To cap it up, she doesn't sound like the kind of person that gets much free time alone if the comments about other WOs coming to learn from her is anything to go by.

Third, there's the healing factor both within and without. With her OP strength, she should last long enough for her to be healed unless she was very far from anyone at the time. And while the WOs may be careful about channeling in front of others, I doubt they'd hesitate in this instance.

Fourth, Mora was a dreamer. We've the WOs anticipating danger before it occurs and Mora taught Bair so maybe she's even better at this than they are. At least her legend like status argues that she does.

Fifth, channelers tend to have sharpers eyes, senses and reflexes than others. Combine this fact with her being an aiel and a dreamer... One could be forgiven for thinking the snake must have bitten her asleep in her tent. Any other scenario raises questions.

While these reasons don't prove she didn't die, what they do is to make the death sound even cheaper. And therefore more anticlimactic and more suspicious.

So I'll go on to motives. Why would Mora want to fake her own death? I've already mentioned one reason: she was a living legend that was the cynosure of all eyes much like Cadsuane. And she likely had little if any privacy at all. She might have had reason to require such privacy. As a dreamer, it isn't too far fetched to see Mora knowing about some of the events that were to take place.

Note that Mora taught Bair, a non channeler. So Bair maybe between 50-70years old and may have begun her training at probably 20years old. Meaning that Mora couldn't have died more than 50 years ago. If she were alive now as I'm proposing, then she'll be about 350, hardly any older than she was before.

Maybe I should add that Mora's "youth" as being referred to by Bair indicates she was the equivalent of prime child bearing age i.e 25 to 35 or simply 30years take or give 5years as at the time of her death. So Mora's life expectancy would be about 700 years or more.

So being a dreamer and possibly more skilled than the current WOs, how much might she have forseen of the future? Very likely a lot. There's no possible future that she would glimpse at that point that would not involve strange things happening all round including the aiel war and the coming of Rand and the LB. Or even Tigraine's coming. That she wouldn't see anything is a very poor bet indeed.

And of course we also know that Ishamael had been among the aiel so he might have set up a "black ajah" among the aiel. If Mora dreamed about DF WOs, I think she'd want solitary very quickly.

And finally there's what links her to Nakomi:

(a)Avi's encounter with Nakomi seemed to have occured in TAR. Two things confirm this - the coals and Nakomi's "stealth". So Nakomi has to be a dreamwalker.

(b)none of the other aiel dreamwalkers we know need to approach Avi this way. They can meet her and discuss this in the real world.

(c)Nakomi confessed she had reason to hide some things. Very likely its linked the reason she took off for solitary in the first place.

So that's it. Somewhat circumstantial, but it certainly adds up IMO. So over to you guys.

E:
Aviendha glanced to the sides. Was this an ambush? Or was this
woman a spectet? One of the dead walking? Why hadn't Aviendha heard
her approach?
"Greetings, Wise One," the woman said, bowing het head. "Might I
share water with you? I am traveling far, and saw your fire." The woman
had furrowed skin, and she could not channel—Aviendha could sense that
easily.
"I am not yet a Wise One," Aviendha said, wary. "I currently take my
second path into Rhuidean."
"Then you w i l l soon find much honor," the woman said. " I am Nakomi.
I promise that I mean you no harm, child."
Suddenly, Aviendha felt foolish. The woman had approached without
weapons drawn. Aviendha had been disttacted by her thoughts; that was
why she hadn't heard Nakomi approach. "Of course, please."
"

"The wetlands are not glorious," Aviendha said. "They are dangerous.
They make us weak."
Nakomi frowned.
Who is this woman? It was not unusual to find Aiel traveling the
Waste; even children learned to protect themselves. But should Nakomi
not be traveling with friends, family? She did not wear the clothing of a
Wise One, but there was something about her . . .
Nakomi stirred the tea, then repositioned Aviendha's shellback, placing
it over the coals to cook it more evenly. From inside her pack, she drew
forth several deepearth roots. Aviendha's mother had always cooked those.
Nakomi placed them in a small ceramic baking box, then slid this into the
coals. Aviendha hadn't realized the fire had grown so warm. Where had all
those coals come from?
"You seem troubled," Nakomi

"People of the Dragon," Nakomi said, sipping her tea. "That is what we are. Serving the Dragon was the point behind everything we did. Our customs,
our raids on each other, our harsh training

I donj't see how Nakomi knew about the people of the dragon thing so intimately if she wasn't a WO.

Zombie Sammael
02-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Main objection: the theory would be a lot stronger if Mora had been mentioned on more than that one occasion. As it is, I like your thinking, but the reaction of most people would be a decided "who?".

It might not be that uncommon for Aiel to die from the various nasty beasts in the Waste; that would explain why Nakomi is notable for having lived to 300, since you'd expect non-oathbound WO channellers to live a little longer than that.

Fin
02-05-2012, 07:09 PM
This is better than most of the ideas i've seen roaming around. Better than a manifestation theory i read before, or the Verin one. Im not saying verin never did anything bad, just that theres a great deal people attribute to her when its unexplained.

greatwolf
02-06-2012, 01:08 AM
Main objection: the theory would be a lot stronger if Mora had been mentioned on more than that one occasion. As it is, I like your thinking, but the reaction of most people would be a decided "who?".

It might not be that uncommon for Aiel to die from the various nasty beasts in the Waste; that would explain why Nakomi is notable for having lived to 300, since you'd expect non-oathbound WO channellers to live a little longer than that.

Both noted. First, BS mentioned a little plot detail that would play a part in the ending. This could be another such detail and we know RJ loved hiding things from us. So casual fans might say "who" but I doubt you guys will. Besides, I think its a lot better than a character that appears in the 13th book without any plot history behind her. This tells us why she's been hidden all along.

This is better than most of the ideas i've seen roaming around

puurrr. Thanks.:)

Dajoran
02-06-2012, 04:49 AM
If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:

Someday I will tell you the story of how Mora moved a mountain. Supposedly, at least."
"Another day?" Melaine said a touch too politely. Plainly she still smarted over whatever had happened in Bael’s dream, and over the fact the others knew. "I heard every tale of Mora when I was a child; I have them all by heart

(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?

Zombie Sammael
02-06-2012, 07:09 AM
If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:



(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?

Somehow, I hadn't considered that Nakomi might be a HOTH on a mission. I'll need to reread that scene now.

Grig
02-06-2012, 10:35 AM
She frowns, likes tea, and rambles. Verin.

Do the Aiel even drink tea? I'd think they would never have had enough water to acquire the taste for it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2012, 11:56 AM
Do the Aiel even drink tea? I'd think they would never have had enough water to acquire the taste for it.
Maybe, and you're obviously right:
He pulled the kerchief from his head and wiped the sweat off of his face, then tied it back. The heat and the eternal sun in his eyes were beginning to get to him. Was there no such thing as shade in this whole land? Sweat stung his wounds. He had refused Healing the night before, when Moiraine wakened him after he had finally gotten to sleep. A few cuts were a small price to avoid having the Power used on you, and the Wise Ones' filthy-tasting tea had settled his headache. Well, after a fashion, anyway. What else ailed him, he did not think Moiraine could do anything about, and he had no intention of telling her until he understood it himself. If then. He didn't even want to think of it.
Whether or not Aiel themselves drink the stuff too I haven't looked up.

greatwolf
02-06-2012, 12:53 PM
If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:



(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?

HotH are bound by laws they dare not break and Birgitte has been tossed out, so it can't be her. And it takes more than stories to be a HotH, we'll need to know the type of things she did to know if she'll even be considered a hero.

The other thought that occured to me is that if Mora wanted to vanish, she really only needs to know Illusion (mirror of mists) and how to mask her ability. Once she finds someone bitten by a bloodsnake (or whatever) she can lay a weave on the corpse and invert it.

But it'll be difficult for her to remain among the WOs without masking her strength since women so strong are few and inevitable the subject of attention. But with masking and illusion, she could be anyone anytime. Even a weakling.

Ishara
02-06-2012, 01:15 PM
But it'll be difficult for her to remain among the WOs without masking her strength since women so strong are few and inevitable the subject of attention. But with masking and illusion, she could be anyone anytime. Even a weakling.

And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?

Davian93
02-06-2012, 01:40 PM
And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?

Was thinking the exact same things...

Crispin's Crispian
02-06-2012, 02:04 PM
And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?

Because she's a Darkfriend. hahahaha...

Dajoran
02-06-2012, 03:53 PM
HotH are bound by laws they dare not break and Birgitte has been tossed out, so it can't be her. And it takes more than stories to be a HotH, we'll need to know the type of things she did to know if she'll even be considered a hero.

Obviously it isn't Birgitte. But what Birgitte proves is that even though there are 'precepts', there is nothing beyond this law that prevents them from interacting with people who are in TAR.

Actually, if Aviendha was in T'A'R... she didn't know... which increases our chances that it could be a Hero; based off of the info we have from Birgitte concerning the precepts:

According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod

Kinda important that there is a distinction contained therein, no?


QUICK EDIT

If it was a HotH, I believe it would be one who is constanly born into the Aiel. This would explain her knowledge, as well as her influencing Aviendha to avoid a certain type of future. A future she would know about if she can remember the fourth age from past turnings?

Zombie Sammael
02-06-2012, 04:15 PM
Obviously it isn't Birgitte. But what Birgitte proves is that even though there are 'precepts', there is nothing beyond this law that prevents them from interacting with people who are in TAR.

There were certainly consequences to Birgitte breaking the precepts.

Dajoran
02-06-2012, 04:26 PM
There were certainly consequences to Birgitte breaking the precepts.

Of course, but Mog wasn't her punishment for her breaking the precepts.

Davian93
02-06-2012, 05:04 PM
There are a good number of hints that she's in TAR or just having some sort of vision quest. The fact that the woman makes her food exactly the way Avi's mother made it, the sudden disappearance with no evidence of ever existing, etc etc. Given the certain looseness in the Pattern, you could argue that it was perhaps the literal "ghost" of Mora or some other Aiel.

greatwolf
02-06-2012, 05:39 PM
And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?

???

I guess same place everyone else learnt from. Initiative. Or you can call it pattern tweaking. I don't know if she knows the weaves or not, but if there are tales about her moving mountains, then this would be a short walk in the park.

Cadsuane knew masking and certainly didn't pass it on. Plus Cadsuane was taught by "a toothless wilder" so Mora being an aiel wilder doesn't mean she's igmorant.

However the biggest plus as I see it is that she's a dreamer. She might actually be learning things by instinct! It may be the same process that allowed Egwene to discover Travelling and Cuendillar. With a dreamer, its easy for the pattern to drop ideas!

Also she can probably learn a fair bit by spying in the world of dreams. A peek in Cadsuane's dreams fopr instance... :)

As to subterfuge, I think I've already answered that. If she had dreams/foretelling concerning TLB or an aiel BA, it would make sense to keep her cards close to her chest.


Kinda important that there is a distinction contained therein, no?

Its probably meant to be interpreted as "you can only speak to those who think its a normal dream" rather than whether they can distinguish TAR from a personal dreamscape.

Dajoran
02-06-2012, 06:15 PM
Its probably meant to be interpreted as "you can only speak to those who think its a normal dream" rather than whether they can distinguish TAR from a personal dreamscape.

Is this not what I inferred? The point is, Aviendha didn't realise she was dreaming. So she obviously didn't realise she was in TAR. Which does not violate the precept.

fionwe1987
02-07-2012, 02:15 AM
Not that this is hugely important, but Cadsuane learned to mask her ability from Nynaeve. She didn't know it on her own.

As for the original point... its interesting, and one of the more possible theories I've read about this.

Lupusdeusest
02-07-2012, 04:16 AM
She frowns, likes tea, and rambles. Verin.


Not to mention the similarity in how she nudges.
Old ground, I know.
Really interesting new lights in this thread atm.

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 05:08 AM
Of course, but Mog wasn't her punishment for her breaking the precepts.

You don't know why the precepts are there though. They could be there to protect HOTHs from untimely rippings out.

Terez
02-07-2012, 05:10 AM
Yeah, Gaidal's statement leads you to believe that there are always indirect consequences, perhaps automatic Wheel-driven ones.

Dajoran
02-07-2012, 05:46 AM
After rereading the Birgitte-Gaidal scene I can see what you are saying.

If this is the case, the pattern is sick - by making Mog the one to tear out Birgitte.

(I also forgot how expertly Gaidal ignores Nynaeve. Cold man.)

My main point stands though. If Nakomi is indeed a HotH, she has not violated the precept - "may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod" - by talking to Aviendha.

(If breaking a precept is all that is required to preempt a 'tearing out' situation - the TAR Rand resurrection theory becomes even easier... I jest!)

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 05:47 AM
Not that this is hugely important, but Cadsuane learned to mask her ability from Nynaeve. She didn't know it on her own.

As for the original point... its interesting, and one of the more possible theories I've read about this.

Did she? I only remember she and Nynaeve doing it in KoD but not when Nynaeve taught her the weave. Maybe she got it from her. But the point is that a dreamer would learn weaves easier than anyone else. And Mora could have learnt weaves that way.

Egwene early on (TDR iirc) guessed that sheriam and Verin were BA and she turned out to be right on both counts. This is probably a result of her Talent. And if Egwene could do it, likely Mora might also be able to sniff out that there're DFs among the WOs and also pick up useful weaves. Call it dream magic. :)

So she obviously didn't realise she was in TAR. Which does not violate the precept

But what if Aviendha had realised she was in TAR? what then?

E:If this is the case, the pattern is sick

Of course it is, that's why it spun out Nynaeve. :)

Dajoran
02-07-2012, 05:51 AM
But what if Aviendha had realised she was in TAR? what then?

Do you mean like, mid-Nakomi-meeting? What an odd question.

I would guess she would be pretty much going "Holy sh$t, I'm in TAR... how'd I do that without a Ter'angreal?!?!?!"

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 05:54 AM
After rereading the Birgitte-Gaidal scene I can see what you are saying.

If this is the case, the pattern is sick - by making Mog the one to tear out Birgitte.

(I also forgot how expertly Gaidal ignores Nynaeve. Cold man.)

My main point stands though. If Nakomi is indeed a HotH, she has not violated the precept - "may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod" - by talking to Aviendha.

(If breaking a precept is all that is required to preempt a 'tearing out' situation - the TAR Rand resurrection theory becomes even easier... I jest!)

The pattern is neither good nor evil, but contains both within it. Only the Dark One is outside the pattern, and perhaps Padan Fain.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 05:54 AM
Do you mean like, mid-Nakomi-meeting? What an odd question.

I would guess she would be pretty much going "Holy sh$t, I'm in TAR... how'd I do that without a Ter'angreal?!?!?!"

Good point. But normal folks do enter TAR without a terangreal or even knowing that they are there. I guess having a terangreal and making a choice to go there help, but are not strictly necessary for entry.

Dajoran
02-07-2012, 06:03 AM
@ZS: :D Haha. True true. Maybe then this was a twisting of the pattern caused by the DO then?

@greatwolf: This is my point. Aviendha entered TAR with the rules you describe, not knowing.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2012, 06:25 AM
But she had been there with help, so she was a lot more likely to recognise it than someone who had never been there longer than a few seconds.

And, of course, at the time that Birgitte warned Perrin about the ToG, Perrin didn't know that the Wolfdream was TAR. So he did not know that he was in TAR, yet Birgitte still says that the prescripts forbid her from speaking to him.

So it seems more likely that the Heroes have a guideline, based on a lot of experience (much of which they actually remember while in TAR) that speaking to living visitors has bad consequences and should therefor be avoided.

Dajoran
02-07-2012, 06:46 AM
But she had been there with help, so she was a lot more likely to recognise it than someone who had never been there longer than a few seconds.

True, but the fact that she didn't recognise it keeps our wayard HotH safe.

And, of course, at the time that Birgitte warned Perrin about the ToG, Perrin didn't know that the Wolfdream was TAR. So he did not know that he was in TAR, yet Birgitte still says that the prescripts forbid her from speaking to him.

But those are the same precepts. TAR is an old tongue name for the World of Dreams. The wolf dream is Perrin's name for the World of Dreams. It doesn't matter what it is called, she was watching him and able to see that he knew he was there and was actively using the World of Dreams as an inherent visitor would.

So it seems more likely that the Heroes have a guideline, based on a lot of experience (much of which they actually remember while in TAR) that speaking to living visitors has bad consequences and should therefor be avoided.

I am not arguing against this. But we have only been told one of the precepts, and my thoughts are valid to the wording of that particular precept.

Although, to make a point, that same experience would allow them to recognise who knows they are there and who doesn't.

If Nakomi was a Hero, and Aviendha was in TAR, then Nakomi could have assesed the situation before she made her appearence, realising that Aviendha just believes she was in the Waste.

And even if this isn't the case. Maybe we have another hero who has the same itches as Birgitte. "To hell with the precepts - I wanna make sure the Aiel don't end up like they have in 'Fourth' Age's past!"

Davian93
02-07-2012, 07:26 AM
Egwene early on (TDR iirc) guessed that sheriam and Verin were BA and she turned out to be right on both counts. This is probably a result of her Talent. And if Egwene could do it, likely Mora might also be able to sniff out that there're DFs among the WOs and also pick up useful weaves. Call it dream magic

She also thought Laras might be one...she was looking crosseyed at everyone because she had just gotten back from being kidnapped by Black Ajah. That was more foreshadowing by RJ than any great insight by Egwene.

Kinda like how Rand thinks about how crazy it would be to meet an Ogier, Aiel or the Green Man at the beggining of tEotW.

Rand also has great "insight" I guess.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Rand also has great "insight" I guess.

Maybe he does :

"She's in trouble," Rand muttered. Egwene. There was an odd feeling in his head, as if pieces of his life were in danger. Egwene was one piece, one thread of the cord that made his life, but there were others, and he could feel them threatened. Down there, in Falme. And if any of those threads was destroyed, his life would never be complete, the way it was meant to be. He did not understand it, but the feeling was sure and certain.

Rand has entered TAR several times and though there are many possible reasons for that, it is highly likely that he is a dreamer and dreamwalker. Or at least that LTT was.

E: let me add that while I beleive the insights help the case, I recognise they are not proof of anything. Just pointers. But when you have so many pointers in the same direction...

BTW: how do you know Laras isn't a DF? Verin was. And she did supply her the "killer tea"

Ishara
02-07-2012, 08:10 AM
???

I guess same place everyone else learnt from. Initiative. Or you can call it pattern tweaking. I don't know if she knows the weaves or not, but if there are tales about her moving mountains, then this would be a short walk in the park.
NONE of the little tricks that the girls have picked up can be ascribed soley to initiative. Or Pattern Tweaking. You're ascribing a significant portion of this conjecture to the concept of her not only knowing waeves that had been lost for millenia, but actively using them in a community of many thousands. Which is it? Either she knows them or she doesn't, and if she knows them you can't just shrug and not address how you think she came to know them.

Our girls learned unusual weaves by (usually) a combination of putting pieces together leanered from the discussions of others; by being ignorant of what can and can't be done, and thus not having the ingrained knowledge that soemthing wasn't possible; by experimenting (dangerous and stupid, they all agree, now; and stealing them from Moghedien. Ultimately, even the ones they "made" up themselves was a result of putting 2 and 2 together based on inforation from other sources - sources which Mora would NOT have had access to.

Cadsuane knew masking and certainly didn't pass it on. Plus Cadsuane was taught by "a toothless wilder" so Mora being an aiel wilder doesn't mean she's igmorant.

"Initiative" may well have played a role, but the only person in the entire series who can remotely be compared to the girls is Cadsuane (many years ago) and even she learned her good tricks from Nynaeve (and yes, she did. look it up).

The lessons that Cadsuane learned from Norla were not soley related to channeling, but rather about how to temper her character. And to call Mora a Wilder is insulting and silly. It's a perjorative term that means nothing when you're looking at Aiel channeling skills on their own, which you should be if you're discussing Mora. She was taught by other Aiel channelers and in her turn taught others wehn she became a Wise One. No one is suggesting that Mora was ignornat, but again the premise of your conjecture is that Mora faked her own death and has been hiding disguised amongst the Aiel ever since, presumably for the sole purpose of posing as Nakomi during Aviendha's second approach to Rhuidean. You have to consider how those skills would have been learned and what sort of Aiel Wise Woman would have hidden those valuable skill from her people?

However the biggest plus as I see it is that she's a dreamer. She might actually be learning things by instinct! It may be the same process that allowed Egwene to discover Travelling and Cuendillar. With a dreamer, its easy for the pattern to drop ideas!

Also she can probably learn a fair bit by spying in the world of dreams. A peek in Cadsuane's dreams fopr instance... :)
Again, Eqwene "discovered" Travelling and Cuendillar by putting pieces of the puzzle together using information she had access to and guesswork. Mora was missing the piece where an imprisoned Forskaen was giving her hints. With regards to Travelling, okay sure, maybe she figured that one out but that doesn't address how she faked her own death and remained hidden, nor does it address - again - why she ouwld have failed to pass along that vital and strategic knowledge to the other Wise Ones.

Dreamers don't just magically invent things, or intuitively know things. The Pattern doesn't just "drop" ideas into their heads.

And the idea of Mora "peeking" into the Dreams of a random Aes Sedai about whom she would have had no particularly strong feelings, is next to impossible. How would that have happened, and what exactly would she have learned? Remember, Cadsuane didn't learn the Mask of Mirrors until quite recently.

But the point is that a dreamer would learn weaves easier than anyone else. And Mora could have learnt weaves that way.
Why? Why would a Dreamer learn weaves easier than a non-Dreamer?

Egwene early on (TDR iirc) guessed that sheriam and Verin were BA and she turned out to be right on both counts. This is probably a result of her Talent. And if Egwene could do it, likely Mora might also be able to sniff out that there're DFs among the WOs and also pick up useful weaves. Call it dream magic.
Um, we do know that dream magic is a thing you just made up to justify this whole conjecture, right?

This has been addressed by Davian already, but Egwene guessed nothing. Egwene was deeply suspicious of anyone in a position of authority who didn't give her the whole picture (which was pretty much anyone, back then). At best, you could call it foreshadowing. To assume that Mora picked up her knowledge in the One Power from Darkfriends amongst the Aiel and not have that be common knowledge defys logic.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Here we go again...:)

NONE of the little tricks that the girls have picked up can be ascribed soley to initiative. Or Pattern Tweaking.


Clarify this please. Are you saying the pattern isn't involved in what happens in RL? Or that it ignores threads and what they do? Or just that it doesn't give a hoot what happens to a legend among the WOs?


You're ascribing a significant portion of this conjecture to the concept of her not only knowing waeves that had been lost for millenia, but actively using them in a community of many thousands.

Conjecture? For the record Ishara, the thread OP is a question. But you seem to prefer that I treat it as if I had stated a theory on the mainboard and taken a position, so I'll oblige you for the sake of arguement.

Mora = Nakomi isn't based on lost weaves. Instead it draws from various pointers including more importantly, the fact that Mora is a dreamwalker and Nakomi would be one. That in itself would be enough to spur theories on it but for the fact that Mora is said to be dead.

For the record, what I've said is that the story of her death is rather anticlimactic and very much unlike RJ.

Either she knows them or she doesn't, and if she knows them you can't just shrug and not address how you think she came to know them.


Maybe from the aiel rings? Even without that Ishara, people learn things all the time. I've only pointed out that a legend who is also a dreamer is far more likely to learn than anyone else.

Ingrained knowledge doesn't seem to be a problem with the WOs as it is with AS. And like I said, the WOs have the advantage of Rhuidean. Its practically a library of weaves for them and they'll learn most things sooner or later.



And to call Mora a Wilder is insulting and silly. It's a perjorative term that means nothing when you're looking at Aiel channeling skills on their own, which you should be if you're discussing Mora.

It isn't unless you want to see it that way. I merely showed that while both Norla and Mora could be considered wilders, there's no reason to think that wilders won't know things that AS don't or that a woman can exist knowing things that the general community of channelers don't.

but again the premise of your conjecture is that Mora faked her own death and has been hiding disguised amongst the Aiel ever since, presumably for the sole purpose of posing as Nakomi during Aviendha's second approach to Rhuidean.


The dreamwalkers knew of aviendha's importance and they insisted she become a WO and become close to Rand. I see Mora also knowing of Avi's importance to the future of the aiel. Remember most of the WOs already know of events from a lot of possible future realities from their first trip to Rhuidean. It shouldn't be too surprising if Mora knew when to go into hiding and when to come for Aviendha. That isn't even counting the fact that she's a dreamer of repute.

I don't think I can answer all your questions at this time. Duty calls. Sorry!

Davian93
02-07-2012, 10:41 AM
BTW: how do you know Laras isn't a DF? Verin was. And she did supply her the "killer tea"


Well, other than the fact that during her confession, Verin straight out said she wasnt and had zero reason to lie?


TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 39 - A Visit from Verin Sedai


"What, is Laras a Darkfriend?" Egwene asked. "Heavens, no," Verin said. "She's many things, but not a Darkfriend. You'd sooner find a Whitecloak marrying an Aes Sedai than find Laras swearing to the Great Lord. Extraordinary woman. And quite good at judging the flavor of teas."

Davian93
02-07-2012, 10:44 AM
The dreamwalkers knew of aviendha's importance and they insisted she become a WO

They insisted because she was a sparker and would channel eventually and ALL female Aiel Channelers become Wise Ones.

Ishara
02-07-2012, 10:58 AM
Clarify this please. Are you saying the pattern isn't involved in what happens in RL? Or that it ignores threads and what they do? Or just that it doesn't give a hoot what happens to a legend among the WOs?

Taken verbatim from my previous post: Our girls learned unusual weaves by (usually) a combination of putting pieces together leanered from the discussions of others; by being ignorant of what can and can't be done, and thus not having the ingrained knowledge that soemthing wasn't possible; by experimenting (dangerous and stupid, they all agree, now; and stealing them from Moghedien. Ultimately, even the ones they "made" up themselves was a result of putting 2 and 2 together based on inforation from other sources - sources which Mora would NOT have had access to.

The Pattern is a mechanism - it's not an anthropomorphic entity. While yes, the Pattern as a mechanism does enable certain things to occur, especially with the help of ta'veren influence, it doesn't mean that everyone in the WoT universe metioned by RJ (or BS) gets a dynamic or exciting ending.

Conjecture? For the record Ishara, the thread OP is a question. But you seem to prefer that I treat it as if I had stated a theory on the mainboard and taken a position, so I'll oblige you for the sake of arguement.
...
For the record, what I've said is that the story of her death is rather anticlimactic and very much unlike RJ.
Your Thread title is a question, yes, but you yourself refer to this concept as a theory. If I'm pushing back and asking questions thataddress the core of the theory I'm only doing it because I think that the thought is incomplete. I'd just like to dig a bit further with regards to what you're basing the theory on.

For example:
Maybe from the aiel rings? Even without that Ishara, people learn things all the time. I've only pointed out that a legend who is also a dreamer is far more likely to learn than anyone else.
But the Rings don't teach people weaves! We don't have shred of evidence to suggest that it's ever happend, and infact, both Moiraine and Aviendha are clear that the memories of the Rings fade quite quickly with the exception of vague feelings as things are happening, or seminal events that they are forewarned about.

I completely agree with you that people learn new things all the time, but my problem lies with your premise that being a dreamer makes one more likely to learn those new things. Nor does the idea that being a "legend" somehow enables one to develop new ideas. Cadsuane is, and she hasn't...

Ingrained knowledge doesn't seem to be a problem with the WOs as it is with AS. And like I said, the WOs have the advantage of Rhuidean. Its practically a library of weaves for them and they'll learn most things sooner or later.
I'm not quite sure what you mean with regards to ingrained knowledge, or what you mean when you suggest that Rhuidean is a library of weaves for the Aiel channelers. How? Where? What am I missing?

It isn't unless you want to see it that way. I merely showed that while both Norla and Mora could be considered wilders, there's no reason to think that wilders won't know things that AS don't or that a woman can exist knowing things that the general community of channelers don't.
And my point was that in the Aiel culture, channelers are not proprietary or set apart from the other Wise Ones. Their culture is such that to hide a skill or talent from others who the ability to also learn it is anathema. There's no way that an Aiel Wise One would keep a secret weave to themselves - that's not how their world view works. Again, I agree that there's nothing to say that Wise Ones can't learn anything that an Aes Seadi could, I fail to see how you can extend that thought to also mean that simply because Aes Sedai hide knowledge means that Aiel Wise Ones would too.

The dreamwalkers knew of aviendha's importance and they insisted she become a WO and become close to Rand. I see Mora also knowing of Avi's importance to the future of the aiel. Remember most of the WOs already know of events from a lot of possible future realities from their first trip to Rhuidean. It shouldn't be too surprising if Mora knew when to go into hiding and when to come for Aviendha. That isn't even counting the fact that she's a dreamer of repute.

Again, you'll recall that the Rings a) only show apprentices their own possible future relaties, and b) those memories fade for the most part, barring the few exceptions I mentioned above. Unless Mora's fate directly involved Aviendha (and how could it if she died years before Aviendha's mother was born), then she would not have appeared to Mora in the Rings. While it's conceivable that Mora could have Dreamed Aviendha's importance to the Aiel, wouldn't she have shared that knowledge with her own apprentice Bair? I'm simply not sure that faking her own death by some uncertain means, disguising herself from her people for over a normal lifetime and appearing to Aviendha in a (maybe) dream makes sense.

Grig
02-07-2012, 10:58 AM
For the record, what I've said is that the story of her death is rather anticlimactic and very much unlike RJ.

Disagree. Seems much like the greatest swordsman in the world losing to a farmer with a stick. Wasn't even an interesting story like a farmer defending his land/wife/honor or anything like that. Anticlimax.

See also: Nicola dying mid-sentence not doing anything important despite her character being built up, Osan'gar getting nuked by a Black Ajah member without ever doing anything important, and countless others.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 01:11 PM
.See also: Nicola dying mid-sentence not doing anything important despite her character being built up, Osan'gar getting nuked by a Black Ajah member without ever doing anything important, and countless others.

So much to say and I have no time at all.

Grig, Nicola's death actually proves she was right and they (AS) ought to have allowed her learn faster is my take. But that's beside the point. She died in rather significant especially when compared to being bitten a three metre long snake that you obviously didn't see. And you a legend. Its like saying a SEAL got killed in a fight with a toddler!

Davian93
02-07-2012, 01:18 PM
The real reason Nicola died (just sub out Ensign Ricky with Nicola):

http://uncletaz.com/tazimgz/startrekimg/star-trek-expendability.jpg

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 02:11 PM
Taken verbatim from my previous post:

The problem is that I don't know of any thing in the books that backs up what you're saying unless you're doing the same conjecture you're accusing me of. Obviously you're opposing the idea that initiative/insight had anything to do with the girls' discoveries or with making of weaves and I find that stand somewhat lacking to say the least. In fact I'm tempted to think you're putting me on.


The Pattern is a mechanism - it's not an anthropomorphic entity. While yes, the Pattern as a mechanism does enable certain things to occur, especially with the help of ta'veren influence, it doesn't mean that everyone in the WoT universe metioned by RJ (or BS) gets a dynamic or exciting ending.

Your point being? We're talking about a legend here. Can you imagine what it takes to make somone a legend? While alive? And the pattern throws all that away just like that? With TLB coming?


Your Thread title is a question, yes, but you yourself refer to this concept as a theory.


I'm sorry but I think of theories as a hypothesis to be proved. I know here its used a little differently. So sometimes I may use that word incorrectly. But like I said, for the sake of arguement I'll take the stand Mora = Nakomi.


But the Rings don't teach people weaves! We don't have shred of evidence to suggest that it's ever happend, and infact, both Moiraine and Aviendha are clear that the memories of the Rings fade quite quickly with the exception of vague feelings

The glass columns enable the aiel to see the past. They may see weaves if the host is a channeler, or may know of weaves or the effects of them. Some of the aiel may experience one thing while others experience another and by discussing they can put a picture together.

With the rings that Moiraine used, they could learn which weaves not to experiment. Having a vague feeling that a weave will lead to disaster can be very useful. Or what do you think?

I completely agree with you that people learn new things all the time, but my problem lies with your premise that being a dreamer makes one more likely to learn those new things. Nor does the idea that being a "legend" somehow enables one to develop new ideas. Cadsuane is, and she hasn't...


Lol! I'm not sure I'm even meant to reply that! But for the record, I've summed it up above. Vague feelings help. Especially if, as it dreamers, you know what those feeling mean. Its easy for the pattern to guide dreamers and those with foretelling probably more than any other Talent or anyone else in the WoT.


Their culture is such that to hide a skill or talent from others who the ability to also learn it is anathema.

Where did you get this? Do you see the WOs teaching the shaido travelling?


I fail to see how you can extend that thought to also mean that simply because Aes Sedai hide knowledge means that Aiel Wise Ones would too.


Read what I posted. Mora would likely do some things if she wanted to hide from a DF society among the WOs. This would mean becoming invisible to the general community of WOs in the least. That doesn't amount to hiding knowledge from others.


Mora's fate directly involved Aviendha

Take it from here and work back and you see what I'm saying. Assuming that Mora were to live to this point or even to TLB, then her visions would have included Rand. And therefore Aviendha. And DFs. And that would have led to her devising this get away and influence things from afar plan.


wouldn't she have shared that knowledge with her own apprentice Bair? I'm simply not sure that faking her own death by some uncertain means, disguising herself from her people for over a normal lifetime and appearing to Aviendha in a (maybe) dream makes sense

Over a normal lifetime? You're saying Bair has lived over a normal lifetime? Please.

Why would she tell Bair? Because she knows Bair isn't a DF? And we don't know that she didn't.

Grig
02-07-2012, 02:56 PM
Grig, Nicola's death actually proves she was right and they (AS) ought to have allowed her learn faster is my take.

Alternately, not give her a ter'angreal that lets her go somewhere that you know is dangerous and where she is likely to push the envelope and interfere with matters beyond her capability. Potato, potatoe, I suppose.

And you're dodging the point. Just because the death served a purpose doesn't mean it's not anti-climactic. Nicola was built up to have great potential, and died mid-sentence with nothing of significance done. And if we're just talking about "purpose" of the death itself and not the letting down of expectations based on build up of the character, Mora's death in the books served another purpose. It pointed out that no matter how adept one is, the Three-Fold Land can still kill them in a heartbeat. And it's hardly unbelievable, either -- we see many times where Wise Ones are deep in discussion, or focused on certain tasks. Just because they may be adept at using the Power doesn't mean they're above missing the signs of a deadly snake while they're distracted by other issues that demand their attention. Mess up once and that could be the time you get bitten. That's how I read it in the first place, as a bit of world-building regarding how dangerous the Waste was even for the initiated.

But that's beside the point. She died in rather significant especially when compared to being bitten a three metre long snake that you obviously didn't see. And you a legend.

And what of Jearom, my other example? He was a legend too. Although I suppose it doesn't state that he was killed by said farmer with a quarterstaff. Or Osan'gar? How is his end anything but anti-climax?

My disagreement was with the idea that a character dying anti-climatically is not Jordan's style. It might not happen all the time, but Mora is hardly the only case. What of the Dreamer Wise One that died? What significance was there that she got killed by a draghkar?

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 03:31 PM
And you're dodging the point. Just because the death served a purpose doesn't mean it's not anti-climactic.

Oh?


It pointed out that no matter how adept one is, the Three-Fold Land can still kill them in a heartbeat. And it's hardly unbelievable, either -- we see many times where Wise Ones are deep in discussion, or focused on certain tasks.


Yes of course, so we should expect Cadsuane to die in bed of an overdose of tea just before TLB to show us that she's nortal and can die anytime? Dude, dying in the prime of youth and full of health would be sad enough for anyone, but this is a legend! Theonly legend we have among the WOs.

If the pattern couldn't use her, perhaps it wouldn't be so bad, but quite the opposite. She was uniquely qualified to serve the pattern's purposes against the DO. Dying at that point robs the pattern of a valuable tool. But faking her death promotes the pattern's purpose. The pattern has a stake in seeing learn the right things to that end.

And what of Jearom, my other example? He was a legend too. Although I suppose it doesn't state that he was killed by said farmer with a quarterstaff. Or Osan'gar? How is his end anything but anti-climax?


Doesn't even come close. Arangar died in a blast of BF that he might have survived if he hadn't been betrayed by Graendal. Compare that with Mora's. Aiel consider anyone bitten by a snake to be somewhat careless. Or at least not as careful as themselves. But for someone who's a legend among them to miss seeing a three metre plus snake takes the cake. Amd dying in that fashion I will re emphasize, is a major waste of the pattern build up for her.

Nicola OTOH, has already given her foretelling and helped other smaller ways such as during Egwene's captivity. What further role you could envisage for her I don't know. But for Mora, she was the super WO. And she died of a bite! Duh!

Grig
02-07-2012, 04:26 PM
Yes of course, so we should expect Cadsuane to die in bed of an overdose of tea just before TLB to show us that she's nortal and can die anytime?

You're seriously comparing Cadsuane, a known POV character for several books, intimately intertwined with several parties in the ongoing story, to a Wise One mentioned to have died a hundred years or so before the story events take place? Yeah, ok.

But for Mora, she was the super WO. And she died of a bite! Duh!

Maybe the snake was radioactive?

Seriously, you can't compare a character mentioned in a fit of background-building to characters that are actually relevant to the story.

Amd dying in that fashion I will re emphasize, is a major waste of the pattern build up for her.

What Pattern buildup? Hell, even Birgitte is known to have had deaths that weren't heroic, in battle, "pattern build up" deaths, and we know for a fact that she's a Hero of the Horn. Mora was dead long before the current Pattern events started coming together. The Aiel were non-players in the current pattern events up until Tigraine joined them. There was no buildup for Mora as regards the Dragon, the Car'a'Carn, or anything of current relevance.

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 05:36 PM
Maybe the snake was radioactive?


Snake wise one,
Snake wise one,
Does whatever a snakewise can.
Appears in TAR,
Any time.
Does whatever a snakewise can.
Catches apprentices,
Just like flies.
Does whatever a snakewise can.
Look out, here comes the Snake Wise One.

professorskar
02-07-2012, 08:00 PM
This has been an interesting discussion. But if the best evidence that Mora faked her own death is her death seemed anticlimactic for a Wise One legend, it's going to take more than that to convince me she's Nakomi.

Masema and Aram both had pretty anticlimactic deaths, in my opinion, and both were more relevant to the story than a Wise One who was mentioned once. She taught Bair when she was young, I'm sure there must have been a body to be found if they knew her cause of death.

greatwolf
02-08-2012, 01:54 PM
You're seriously comparing Cadsuane, a known POV character for several books, intimately intertwined with several parties in the ongoing story, to a Wise One mentioned to have died a hundred years or so before the story events take place? Yeah, ok.

I'll help you see it. How important are the aiel? And dreamwalkers? And Aviendha? And strong (forsaken class) channelers?

If any of these are relevant at all, then Mora/Nakomi is indeed very important. I could even argue more so than Cadsuane, because without the support of the WOs, she very likely would have failed in her self appointed task.

Mora alive today would be default leader of both the WOs in general and the dreamwalers in particular. And a woman that slows enough to have a life expectancy around 700years (in the waste!) might be stronger than Graendal!

Important? Critical to events is more like it. And if she remains unknown to the DF society, then she's a great trump card for the FoL as the encounter with Avi proves.

greatwolf
02-08-2012, 02:01 PM
This has been an interesting discussion. But if the best evidence that Mora faked her own death is her death seemed anticlimactic for a Wise One legend, it's going to take more than that to convince me she's Nakomi.

Masema and Aram both had pretty anticlimactic deaths, in my opinion, and both were more relevant to the story than a Wise One who was mentioned once. She taught Bair when she was young, I'm sure there must have been a body to be found if they knew her cause of death.


The pattern wanted Masema out, it got masema out. It fits. Its the "even a WO can be killed by a bite, no matter how experienced and skilled she is" that gets to me. And RJ didn't mention her once, he did so several times in the same chapter. Why? And he pointedly tells us in KoD that a bloodlance (wetland version of bloodsnake?) will not bite unless disturbed. So tell me, do you beleive RJ was just writing coincidence into his books? Or did he miss the fact that the name of the snakes were similar?

eht slat meit
02-08-2012, 02:07 PM
The pattern wanted Masema out, it got masema out.

This seems to ascribe a great deal more sentience to the Pattern than the Pattern likely possesses...?

greatwolf
02-08-2012, 03:02 PM
This seems to ascribe a great deal more sentience to the Pattern than the Pattern likely possesses...?

Sentience? I don't think so. If it were alive, then it would have gone after Masema and done it quite quickly and without needing taveren. But as I see it, Masema was doing things that bred more chaos, fear and death - feeding the DO and his thread needed to be neutralized.

The visions of the WOs regarding Masema confirm that the pattern did take an interest in him and wanted him out.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2012, 04:14 AM
Mora alive today would be default leader of both the WOs in general and the dreamwalers in particular.
Nice typo, that.

It is of course possible that Sorilea engineered Mora's death. That would then have left the way free for Sorilea to dominate all the WOs, at least until the emergence of Amys.

eht slat meit
02-09-2012, 09:32 AM
True, Gonzo, but the other possibility is that she's a 'Nicola Treehill' of her own age. When I say that, I refer solely to the positive connotations, someone with a great deal of promise and much to offer the world around them, who dies an early and otherwise senseless death.

Because the Pattern does not insist all deaths be meaningful, I don't think.

Figbiscuit
02-09-2012, 01:52 PM
Although I don't post much on these boards, I do cast my eye over people's thoughts and ideas, at least until they either turn into arguments or people start posting page longs replies, at which point my eyes glaze over...

I also think it's pretty hard to come up with decent new ideas at this late stage in the game. All the interesting and more obvious theories and factions got done a loong time ago. I myself have not had an original thought in about 5 years now, hence my lack of contribution to this section of the boards.

Anyway, I digress. Basically, I like your idea. You probably don't give a hoot, but I wanted to tell you anyway. And also make one of my random contributions to this board, just to prove that I do hang out here sometimes, even if I don't say much.

I do definitely think you've got something in the idea that Aviendha was brought into T'A'R, and that RJ did not write many coincidences. Having said that, I also like Gonzo's idea of Soreila engineering Mora's death in order to become head of the Wise One's.

So on that note of pointless balance, I shall begone.

greatwolf
02-21-2012, 03:33 AM
True, Gonzo, but the other possibility is that she's a 'Nicola Treehill' of her own age. When I say that, I refer solely to the positive connotations, someone with a great deal of promise and much to offer the world around them, who dies an early and otherwise senseless death.

Because the Pattern does not insist all deaths be meaningful, I don't think.


All deaths? Maybe not. But the pattern goes to great effort to maintain its weaving. A major focal point for the weaving is tavern. Others such as heroes are also used to further the purpose of the pattern. Once Mora became a legend among the WOs, the level of influence she attained was useful to the pattern and could be even more so if (as would be natural for her) she lived to the time of TLB. The only thing that could make her situation even more beneficial to the shadow is for her to be invisble to the forces of the shadow.

That isn't the only aspect of her "death" that concerns the pattern though. We've seen the premonitions that dreamers get about places and events. If Mora was stronger and better than the present day dreamers, then one would have expected that she would have had some sort of premonition if she was in the vicinity of a deadly snake. What happened to her spidey sense?

If it was absent, then the cause can be directly attributed to the pattern itself. The pattern wanted her dead. We cannot claim the DO's influence on the pattern at the point in the story (about 50 years before the current events).

Lastly, dreamers usually have some advantage when they use terangreal associated with dreaming or future events such as the aiel one. The things they see tend to have a probability approaching certainty.

OTOH, Mora = Nakomi is just as strong as Nakomi = Mora. I mean walking back from the evidence, Nakomi has to be

(1) a dreamwalker and a strong one from the things she did.

(2) a wise one.

(3) someone with a hidden secret. If you consider her statement to aviendha about secrets.

(4) she is unlikely to be one of the three known aiel dreamwalkers, all of whom have enough access to aviendha without needing this kind of subterfuge.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2012, 04:11 AM
She could be someone serving the Shadow, together with those strange Aiel in the Blight.

Dajoran
02-21-2012, 04:24 AM
OTOH, Mora = Nakomi is just as strong as Nakomi = Mora.

Whuh??


I mean walking back from the evidence, Nakomi has to be

She doesn't have to be any of these things.


(1) a dreamwalker and a strong one from the things she did.

Or someone who knows how to channel a gateway to TAR (in the flesh), or even, as I said before a HotH.

(2) a wise one.

Or just an Aiel who know's Aiel ways. They all know what happened in Rhuidean by now. So that isn't a qualifier. Even Egwene could pass this standard if she tanned up a bit.

(3) someone with a hidden secret. If you consider her statement to aviendha about secrets.

Most of the cast.

(4) she is unlikely to be one of the three known aiel dreamwalkers, all of whom have enough access to aviendha without needing this kind of subterfuge.

I agree that it is unlikely - but arguments can still be thrown up against this.

Again, none of these factors have to be true.

greatwolf
02-24-2012, 02:56 PM
She doesn't have to be any of these things.


The evidence is there. Its so blatantly obvious.


Or someone who knows how to channel a gateway to TAR (in the flesh), or even, as I said before a HotH.


Like who? Oh don't tell me, you don't know of anyone else that could fit do you, you're just being unnecessarily nitty.

FelixPax
02-24-2012, 04:37 PM
I donj't see how Nakomi knew about the people of the dragon thing so intimately if she wasn't a WO.

Rand spilled the beans...
That's how!

“He transforms everything.” Amys sounded troubled. “Rhuidean. The Lost Ones. The bleakness, and telling what should not have been told.” The Wise Ones—all the Aiel, for that matter—still had difficulty speaking of that



Nakomi is an former Aiel Maiden. [Nakomi would know of the 'Thousand Flowers' game, too.]
Nakomi has lived with the Tuatha'an.
Nakomi has learned Tuatha'an cooking methods.


“Have some of this pie. Ila doesn’t like me, but she surely feeds me well when I visit. Always good food in the People’s camps.”

TEOTW, Ch. 27 'Shelter From the Storm'--Perrin POV, Elyas quotation

[Tuatha'an do NOT use channel saidar, nor saidin willingly or knowingly--claimed Verin. And yet, Ila is an Old Tuatha'an Grandmother with NO wrinkles on her cheeks.]



Nakomi has gone, where Amys never has.
Nakomi is not as scarred mentally, as Amys is.
Nakomi has overcome, her past, and move beyond it.

Amys is a Wise One, Nakomi is Wise.





Greatwolf, remember this?

“I have heard,” Amys said slowly, “that some of those who run after the bleakness have gone to the Lost Ones and asked to be taken in.” A long silence followed. They knew now that the Tuatha’an had the same descent as themselves, that they had broken away before the Aiel crossed the Spine of the World into the Waste, but if anything the knowledge had only deepened their aversion.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 5 'Among the Wise Ones' -- Egwene al'Vere point of view, with Amys, Melaine, Bair


Who is Nakomi?

Nakomi has become one of neo-Da'shain Aiel.

Aviendha never did claim who the Ca'a'carn was either, in #ToM Chapter 'In The Three-Fold Land'.


-------------------------------------------

Is anyone claiming Nakomi, is nearly 300 years old? Or that she has married 3 times?



Mora = a River
Mora = 'Hand' in the Old Tongue? :confused:
Mora = is a Shaido Clan sept, in Altara
[Fal] Mora[n] = a Shienar city
[Lady Ti]mora = a Shienar noblewoman
Mora[ine] = Traveler with a staff out
[Jisao Ha]mora = Young-lin-g: symbol '[I]Silver Tower', and Warder.

Seth Baker
03-05-2012, 08:01 PM
But what if Aviendha had realised she was in TAR? what then?


If that were a concern, the precept would be, "You cannot reveal yourself to anyone." The way they've worded the precept explicitly allows them to communicate with someone who does not know that they are in TAR.

Admittedly, the weakness to this argument is that there are three possible states of knowledge: (1) aware that you are in TAR; (2) aware of the existence of TAR but not that you are it; (3) unaware of the existence of TAR.

The rule explicitly allows contact with 3's. It also explicitly prohibits contact with 1's. I'd interpret it allowing contact with 2's, since it's worded, "Anyone who knows they are in TAR" and not "Anyone who could become aware that they are in TAR."

greatwolf
03-06-2012, 01:04 AM
Main objection: the theory would be a lot stronger if Mora had been mentioned on more than that one occasion. As it is, I like your thinking, but the reaction of most people would be a decided "who?".

It might not be that uncommon for Aiel to die from the various nasty beasts in the Waste; that would explain why Nakomi is notable for having lived to 300, since you'd expect non-oathbound WO channellers to live a little longer than that.

But isn't it interesting that RJ chose to point the size of the snake? And also told us in several examples how dreamwalkers tend to be aware of dangers and even "evil" in their surroundings? If RJ wanted it hidden but not buried too deep, he could have done something like this. And Mat's encounter with the bloodlance could have been a reminder of sorts.

The rule explicitly allows contact with 3's. It also explicitly prohibits contact with 1's.

True it lies open to the interpretion and will of the HotH. But we have no evidence that HotH are so well versed in aiel ways or have been following aviendha closely. Any aiel dreamer who learnt of avi's connection to Rand would be bound to follow her doings very closely though.

Its putting all the clues together that leads to Mora. That, and seeing how fishy Mora's death was. It could easily have been faked. The question I expected and dreaded was "how would Mora hide among the aiel since then?"

Seth Baker
03-06-2012, 01:28 AM
Its putting all the clues together that leads to Mora. That, and seeing how fishy Mora's death was. It could easily have been faked. The question I expected and dreaded was "how would Mora hide among the aiel since then?"

I disagree. You're starting with the false conclusion that she could not simply be a curio that RJ used to make the world feel more real. Then you're finding any passages that could bear that argument and offering them.

It's not a bad theory, but it's a stretch. Just off the top of my head - you're assuming (without foundation) that there are no Aiel among the HotH - indeed, if it WAS Mora (and I don't find the death fishy at all), I think it's more likely that her legend equated to HOTH status and she's interacting from where she waits within TAR.

I also think that the Verin connection is too obvious to miss.

There are many possible answers, of which yours (admittedly) is one. I don't think it's the strongest or the most obvious, and it's certainly not inevitable. That's all.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2012, 04:09 AM
The rule explicitly allows contact with 3's. It also explicitly prohibits contact with 1's. I'd interpret it allowing contact with 2's, since it's worded, "Anyone who knows they are in TAR" and not "Anyone who could become aware that they are in TAR."
A rather big problem with that interpretation is that the rule was invoked in a case involving someone who did not know he was in TAR. He knew he was in the Wolf Dream. Later on in the series, he started suspecting that that was the same as TAR, and eventually he came to consider that a fact.

Dajoran
03-06-2012, 06:30 AM
The evidence is there. Its so blatantly obvious.

What is this blatantly obvious evidence? That an epic WO died a crap death?

The death however isn’t a death; it is instead a convoluted plot to fake her death in the most naff way possible. A plot so that this once mentioned WO can use information she gathered in the three rings to saunter up to a WO-apprentice in T’A’R to get her to think about the nature of the Aiel post-TG?

Like who? Oh don't tell me, you don't know of anyone else that could fit do you, you're just being unnecessarily nitty.

You're the one being nitty friend.

Anyone who can dreamwalk / enter T'A'R and channel 'Mirror of Mists' can fit the Nakomi mask.

Any WO who was teaching Aviendha can be made to fit. We don't know what Nakomi's purpose was - we can only infer. It could be something as simple as a WO from another Clan doing some form of pre-Rhuidean ceremony that occurs with every wise one. It is after all, part of a WO’s remit to wonder about the future of the Aiel.

It could even be the ghost of a Jenn.

It could be an Aiel Wolfsister.

It could be Mora - Mora's sister - Mora's daughter.

A cross-dressing Rand.

Amys in fancy dress.

Egwene playing a prank on her near-sister.

A forsaken setting off events to break the Rhuidean Ter’angreal.

Valan Luca done up in mummer’s make-up.

An Aiel HotH.

An errant hologram from one of Lt. Barclay’s holodeck programs.

A cylon.

The point is, think; your ‘obvious evidence’ isn’t really that concrete if everyone here isn’t falling over themselves to agree with you.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2012, 06:36 AM
You forgot about Hopper Reborn*.

* Assuming he'd died by the time of the Nakomi incident. I'm not sure of the time lines here, so this is speculation.

Dajoran
03-06-2012, 07:32 AM
You forgot about Hopper Reborn*.

* Assuming he'd died by the time of the Nakomi incident. I'm not sure of the time lines here, so this is speculation.

Not just Hopper... when all the wolves die in the Wolf Dream they are repurposed as part of the Nakomi construct.

What's interesting about the Nakomi construct is that it exists in the dream world as an Aiel woman, but upon waking it is Valan Luca's cape.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2012, 08:31 AM
What's interesting about the Nakomi construct is that it exists in the dream world as an Aiel woman, but upon waking it is Valan Luca's cape.
Maybe not only an Aiel woman. That bit could depend on who is meeting this construct. After all, she appeared to Egwene (in TDR) as Silvie, a trusted retainer.

Zombie Sammael
03-06-2012, 08:43 AM
Maybe not only an Aiel woman. That bit could depend on who is meeting this construct. After all, she appeared to Egwene (in TDR) as Silvie, a trusted retainer.

Actually, Silvie is a manifestation of the true Dragon's britches.

Dajoran
03-06-2012, 08:51 AM
Actually, Silvie is a manifestation of the true Dragon's britches.

I have to disagree here - as Silvie is covered in far to many wrinkles to be the Breeches Reborn.

As the prophecy states:

Twice and twice they shall be laced;
twice for fitting and twice for tightness.

Zombie Sammael
03-06-2012, 08:54 AM
I have to disagree here - as Silvie is covered in far to many wrinkles to be the Breeches Reborn.

As the prophecy states:

Twice and twice they shall be laced;
twice for fitting and twice for tightness.

Actually, that makes sense, when you consider that Silvie was Lanfear in disguise, and Lanfear was reborn as Cyndane. If you mix what's actually written in the books with the things you make up in your head then the sky becomes the limit.

Seth Baker
03-06-2012, 10:31 AM
A rather big problem with that interpretation is that the rule was invoked in a case involving someone who did not know he was in TAR. He knew he was in the Wolf Dream. Later on in the series, he started suspecting that that was the same as TAR, and eventually he came to consider that a fact.

That's a semantic argument, and it misses the point completely. Perrin didn't know the proper name for Tel'aran'rhiod, but he knew that it was real, he knew that it was a dream, and he knew that he was there. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. I do not accept your contention that Perrin did not know that he was in Tel'aran'rhiod for the purposes of applying the precepts. He understood the nature of the dream, and lacked only the name to apply to it.

The precept cannot center on whether a person knows the word Tel'aran'rhiod. That would make no sense. Obviously it applies to people who understand the nature of the dream, whatever they call it.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2012, 10:49 AM
But Aviendha also understands about TAR. She'd been brought there as part of her training. She had also gone there using ter'angreal.
If the argument applies in this case, then it was based on the gamble that in this specific case she would not figure out that she was in TAR, while she did have the experience which might have helped her to do exactly that.

At the time that Perrin was first speaking to Birgitte, he had less theoretical knowledge of TAR than Aviendha had, and he may not have had more experience with it than she had when she met Nakomi. So if he was too knowledgeable to be safely meeting Heroes of the Horn, then so was she.

Seth Baker
03-06-2012, 10:52 AM
A rather big problem with that interpretation is that the rule was invoked in a case involving someone who did not know he was in TAR. He knew he was in the Wolf Dream. Later on in the series, he started suspecting that that was the same as TAR, and eventually he came to consider that a fact.

But Aviendha also understands about TAR. She'd been brought there as part of her training. She had also gone there using ter'angreal.
If the argument applies in this case, then it was based on the gamble that in this specific case she would not figure out that she was in TAR, while she did have the experience which might have helped her to do exactly that.

At the time that Perrin was first speaking to Birgitte, he had less theoretical knowledge of TAR than Aviendha had, and he may not have had more experience with it than she had when she met Nakomi. So if he was too knowledgeable to be safely meeting Heroes of the Horn, then so was she.

But the precept is not that you cannot reveal yourself to anyone who has the knowledge necessary to know what T'A'R is, or who might figure out that they are there, for chrissake!

The precept is that you cannot reveal yourself to anyone who knows that they are in T'A'R! Perrin did - Aviendha didn't realize that she'd fallen asleep!

E: The difference that matters is this: Perrin realized he was in the Wolf Dream, which is merely another word for T'A'R. Aviendha didn't. The precept doesn't say anything about the risk of them realizing. It's about present knowledge. That's all that matters.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Trouble is that Aviendha could have recognised where she was (assuming it was TAR, which I'm not sure of) at any moment. She had the training for it, even if she did not have all that much talent in this area.
So how could Nakomi have been sure that speaking with Aviendha would not break the precepts, if Aviendha could at any moment have figured out that she was in TAR?

Seth Baker
03-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Trouble is that Aviendha could have recognised where she was (assuming it was TAR, which I'm not sure of) at any moment. She had the training for it, even if she did not have all that much talent in this area.
So how could Nakomi have been sure that speaking with Aviendha would not break the precepts, if Aviendha could at any moment have figured out that she was in TAR?

But that's not what the precept says! It says, "Anyone who knows." Present tense. Even if the HOTH follows the precepts (Birgitte didn't), they could follow them closely, construing them narrowly - and Aviendha did not know.

The precepts don't discuss figuring it out. They don't discuss the future. It's a present state of knowledge test. You're reading rules in that aren't in the book. I'm taking it at the plain meaning of the words we have.

greatwolf
03-07-2012, 06:44 AM
You're the one being nitty friend.

Anyone who can dreamwalk / enter T'A'R and channel 'Mirror of Mists' can fit the Nakomi mask.


Its no longer anyone once you've made those exceptions. And that is what I said. You eliminate the possible candidates and what you're left with is an aiel dreamwalker with a secret that isn't generally known to aiel WOs.


Any WO who was teaching Aviendha can be made to fit.

Or any WO who thinks avi is important to the future of the aiel. Through dreaming, or through the rings or plain common sense.


It could even be the ghost of a Jenn.


Now you're arguing ghosts? Doesn't that make your stand a shade unrealistic?

It could be an Aiel Wolfsister.


:D


Amys in fancy dress.


ROFLMAO

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 11:06 AM
"Yes, your outlandish theories are absurd, but my outlandish theory is perfectly reasonable, after all, she was really strong and died in an accident, QED"

My $100 against your $1 that Nakomi is not Mora.

greatwolf
03-07-2012, 12:32 PM
That's more like it! :D :D

Dajoran
03-09-2012, 07:51 AM
Now you're arguing ghosts? Doesn't that make your stand a shade unrealistic?

... Well I wasn't arguing for anything really, but I'm pretty sure that ghosts have had more of an appearence in the books than Mora ... :D

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 08:39 AM
... Well I wasn't arguing for anything really, but I'm pretty sure that ghosts have had more of an appearence in the books than Mora ... :D

Yes. When you're dredging up byline characters from the Lord of Chaos as possibilities, you're not allowed to claim anything is improbable.

mogi67
03-09-2012, 11:56 AM
She frowns, likes tea, and rambles. Verin.

Do the Aiel even drink tea? I'd think they would never have had enough water to acquire the taste for it.

Eggy and Aviendha prepare tea all the time for the Wise Ones in the sweat tents in TSR and TFOH

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2012, 12:14 PM
Eggy and Aviendha prepare tea all the time for the Wise Ones in the sweat tents in TSR and TFOH
But do they drink it?
They might use the tea just to irrigate patches of (inferior) tabac.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 12:49 PM
But do they drink it?
They might use the tea just to irrigate patches of (inferior) tabac.

Err, yeah. Maybe. :confused: