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Cortar
02-06-2012, 04:01 PM
How do the Forsaken prevent themselves from getting killed when a fellow Forsaken opens a gateway to his hidey-hole?

Especially when its a male travelling to a female's or vice-versa.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2012, 04:26 PM
How do the Forsaken prevent themselves from getting killed when a fellow Forsaken opens a gateway to his hidey-hole?
They go "Ting!":
Abruptly a vertical slash of silver appeared at the far end of the room, bright against the tapestries hanging between the heavy gilded mirrors, and a crystalline chime rang loud. Her eyebrows rose in surprise. Someone remembered the courtesies of a more civilized Age, it seemed. Standing, she forced the plain band of gold down against the ruby ring on her smallest finger and embraced saidar through it before channeling the web that would sound an answering chime for whoever wanted to open a gateway. The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.
Simple, easy, and I do not quite know why this would be safe. It seems to me the sound signals would also require gateways to be send to the other party.
Still, based on the lack of worry from the Forsaken, I suspect that it is indeed a lot safer than it seems.

Cortar
02-06-2012, 04:31 PM
I remember this now, but nothing like this was used in the earlier books, specifically when Sam and Gran met in LoC.

Also wouldn't that slash of light still be dangerous?



One more question that might be answerable: I know you have to know the place you are AT to make a gateway, but how much of the place you are going do you have to know? How much control do channellers have in making gateways at these places? I mean, if I knew about a town on a map and I tried to make a gateway there, but I have never seen it or been there, what prevents me from opening a gateway underground or 100 ft above ground level?

Terez
02-06-2012, 04:54 PM
They go "Ting!":
Simple, easy, and I do not quite know why this would be safe. It seems to me the sound signals would also require gateways to be send to the other party.
Still, based on the lack of worry from the Forsaken, I suspect that it is indeed a lot safer than it seems.
I think that is more about privacy than it is about safety.
BRANDON SANDERSON (4 JANUARY 2011) (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22391299260817408)
Back to reading The Eye of the World, all. Posts to follow. I'll try to keep it at a steady stream, not a flood.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22391871980445696)
WoT Easter Egg: there's an easily overlooked line in the prologue of The Eye of the World which gives huge foreshadowing of things Rand can do in Towers of Midnight.

TEREZ (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/22392144475979776)
I always thought the fact that Lews Therin could sense that there were no people around for miles was interesting.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22400729759092737)
I should have guessed that you'd be the only one who would pick out the right line, Terez.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22406440786329600)
The Easter egg in the prologue has to do with Lews Therin sensing the lack of people around him for miles and miles.

BRANDON SANDERSON (5 JANUARY) (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22775086897430528)
Regarding yesterday's Easter Egg, Maria mentions RJ was preparing a blog post on the concept.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22775252794744832)
For those who missed it, it has to do with Lews Therin sensing nobody was nearby when he made Dragonmount.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/22775538250678274)
And before you ask, no, I can't say more. Sorry. Suffice it to say that what is in the books stands as enough of an answer, for now.

TEREZ (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/22945452735340544)
My original(ish) post on the ability to sense for people: http://bit.ly/safegates in '06. I was a noob(ish) then.

BRANDON SANDERSON (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/23104475300364288)
Interesting theory. What do you think of it now?


TEREZ (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/23111281166778369)
I think it still holds up (despite a few details I missed), but I think it's not what you were getting at. :)

fionwe1987
02-06-2012, 05:37 PM
Can you point out where Rand uses this in ToM? I can't remember a single instance.

Terez
02-06-2012, 05:40 PM
I figured he was doing a more general reference to the 'one with the land' thing.

Grig
02-06-2012, 07:02 PM
Can you point out where Rand uses this in ToM? I can't remember a single instance.

While it's not exercising his "soul proximity sensor", it could play into how he recognizes Lanfear's soul in a new body (and possibly pre-reintegration recognizing of Moridin?). And depending on your interpretation of certain scenes, his detecting souls that have sworn to the Dark One (although this is really something any Aes Sedai can do, differing only in degree as they can only sense the worst of the worst Darkfriends).

suttree
02-06-2012, 11:37 PM
his detecting souls that have sworn to the Dark One (although this is really something any Aes Sedai can do, differing only in degree as they can only sense the worst of the worst Darkfriends).

I know Moiraine did something with Fain but I thought AS could only sense Shadowspawn, not DF's?

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 12:13 AM
I know Moiraine did something with Fain but I thought AS could only sense Shadowspawn, not DF's?

I believe that depends on how far gone they are.

Which makes a certain sense, when you think about it. Rand is a pure beast among channelers, capable of shocking trained Asha'man into bafflement with a siege-destroying onslaught.

With powers on that level, his sense for the dark side is probably far more refined and more deeply-reaching than any Aes Sedai living today.

suttree
02-07-2012, 12:41 AM
I believe that depends on how far gone they are.


Wouldn't they then have detected at least one BA in that manner before they were unearthed by conventional means?

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Wouldn't they then have detected at least one BA in that manner before they were unearthed by conventional means?

Unlikely, because most people, even the Black Ajah, don't possess that depth of evil, though some such as the Forsaken possess a greater capacity for evil acts.


"No Trolloc can come within a quarter of a mile without Lan knowing it, feeling the evil of it." ~ TEoTW, Ch16

A murder here and there, a few plots to the greater glory of the DO. Does the evil of anyone who is not a Forsaken even remotely compare to the evil of savage beasts like Trollocs or vile rapaciousness of Fades?

The ones who are that overtly evil don't survive long, because they are generally seen for Darkfriends and dealt with as a threat to the community at large.

Still, they possess some of the same brand of evil to a degree, and if that protection + detection is granted by the One Power, then it stands to reason that a greater level of protection and detection might also be possessed by someone like Rand, whose might exceeds any living channeler.

suttree
02-07-2012, 02:26 AM
Unlikely, because most people, even the Black Ajah, don't possess that depth of evil, though some such as the Forsaken possess a greater capacity for evil acts.


To my mind the Forsaken then would leap out in that regard. All the atrocities you would think would be enough to warrant that distinction.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 02:56 AM
To my mind the Forsaken then would leap out in that regard. All the atrocities you would think would be enough to warrant that distinction.

Which is why their very presence is enough to cast a pall of nightmare over a city... and be sensed easily without the aid of a warder bond. They might not stick out for it, but if their evil resonates so strongly for the likely reason - their OP powers - then it makes sense that they aren't immediately visible to anyone they cross paths with while in disguise.

fionwe1987
02-07-2012, 03:17 AM
I figured he was doing a more general reference to the 'one with the land' thing.
So this is an ability only LTT possesses? I actually thought it was a weave or a Talent.

greatwolf
02-07-2012, 08:26 AM
I believe that depends on how far gone they are.

Which makes a certain sense, when you think about it. Rand is a pure beast among channelers, capable of shocking trained Asha'man into bafflement with a siege-destroying onslaught.

With powers on that level, his sense for the dark side is probably far more refined and more deeply-reaching than any Aes Sedai living today.

In KoD, Rand sensed the mass of trollocs at the same time Cadsuane did. That might be due to the strength in the OP, or due to a masking of the shadowspawn horde being dropped.

But in EotW, Rand sensed the shadowspawn before Lan or Moiraine did. And he didn't know much at that point. So I wouldn't say say his senses are more refined but with Rand there are so many sides to it that anything's possible.

suttree
02-07-2012, 12:04 PM
Which is why their very presence is enough to cast a pall of nightmare over a city... and be sensed easily without the aid of a warder bond. They might not stick out for it, but if their evil resonates so strongly for the likely reason - their OP powers - then it makes sense that they aren't immediately visible to anyone they cross paths with while in disguise.

Moving off the forsaken your premise would require that no one in the history of the BA has ever been far gone enough to sense. I get the point you made earlier but that still seems a bit far fetched to me.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2012, 12:08 PM
No one in the WT seems to have sensed Mesaana either. Or Lanfear, when that one happened to visit there.

Then again, no AS ever seems to have gotten the idea of employing a Sniffer in order to clean out their ranks, so I guess that a certain level of stupidity has to be acknowledged. Verin recognised Hurin for what he was immediately, suggesting that the BA had been aware of that particular danger to them.

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 12:17 PM
No one in the WT seems to have sensed Mesaana either. Or Lanfear, when that one happened to visit there.

Then again, no AS ever seems to have gotten the idea of employing a Sniffer in order to clean out their ranks, so I guess that a certain level of stupidity has to be acknowledged. Verin recognised Hurin for what he was immediately, suggesting that the BA had been aware of that particular danger to them.

It suggests nothing of the sort. All it suggests is Verin knew what a Sniffer was. We know of no requirement that all BA are required to share information; in fact the opposite appears to be true in all workings of the Shadow. Nor is there any evidence that, in fact, knowledge of sniffers was common in the Tower. In fact, from the fact that a mass Red Ajah investigation of Borderlanders for men who could channel has not taken place, we can infer that knowledge of sniffers was not even common amongst AS.

Grig
02-07-2012, 12:30 PM
I know Moiraine did something with Fain but I thought AS could only sense Shadowspawn, not DF's?

Since it was danced around a bit and one should support one's own statements, the quote I had in mind (TDR, Chapter 34):

Perrin shifted his feet uneasily; there was a cold promise in her voice. "You told me once that you could sense a Darkfriend, one who was far gone into the Shadow, at least. Lan, too. Have you sensed anything like that here?"
..."Very few humans are so far gone as that, Perrin, even among the worst Darkfriends."

To be honest, I didn't originally provide a citation because I didn't think it was a controversial or obscure statement :-). As for why the Black Ajah has gone undetected, Ishamael has been around fairly regularly since its inception. Perhaps there's some mojo he teaches them to avoid detection (although since none of them were familiar with inverted weaves, this may present difficulty). Alternately, the Black Ajah doesn't really attract zealous converts. They are all selfish, not Shadowy. They're acting in their own interests, not in those of the Dark One. But then, why would the Forsaken be detectable, since their psyche is similar? Mainly because they actually have a direct link to the Dark One? Alternately, early-book-itis (although I do think I go there too quickly sometimes).

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 12:33 PM
Then again, no AS ever seems to have gotten the idea of employing a Sniffer in order to clean out their ranks, so I guess that a certain level of stupidity has to be acknowledged. Verin recognised Hurin for what he was immediately, suggesting that the BA had been aware of that particular danger to them.

Employing Sniffers seems problematic in dealing with, say, the Red Ajah.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Employing Sniffers seems problematic in dealing with, say, the Red Ajah.
Admittedly, if I were a Sniffer (or if I weren't, for that matter) then I would not want to come near them.

Zombie Sammael
02-07-2012, 01:12 PM
Since it was danced around a bit and one should support one's own statements, the quote I had in mind (TDR, Chapter 34):



To be honest, I didn't originally provide a citation because I didn't think it was a controversial or obscure statement :-). As for why the Black Ajah has gone undetected, Ishamael has been around fairly regularly since its inception. Perhaps there's some mojo he teaches them to avoid detection (although since none of them were familiar with inverted weaves, this may present difficulty). Alternately, the Black Ajah doesn't really attract zealous converts. They are all selfish, not Shadowy. They're acting in their own interests, not in those of the Dark One. But then, why would the Forsaken be detectable, since their psyche is similar? Mainly because they actually have a direct link to the Dark One? Alternately, early-book-itis (although I do think I go there too quickly sometimes).

You answered your own question. "Very few humans" probably means around a dozen, perhaps one or two more, no?

Grig
02-07-2012, 01:38 PM
You answered your own question. "Very few humans" probably means around a dozen, perhaps one or two more, no?

It wasn't my question, it was my stab at answering someone else's questions. But if there exists such thing as a Darkfriend that Aes Sedai can sense, how in the world can they deny the existence of a Black Ajah? Even if a channeler fitting that stringent requirement only came along once every hundred or two hundred years, there would be at least a few hundred Aes Sedai at any given time that had sensed an Aes Sedai so dark that they were detectable as Shadowsworn. And if one Aes Sedai can serve the Dark One, why not more than one?

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 01:46 PM
Even if a channeler fitting that stringent requirement only came along once every hundred or two hundred years, there would be at least a few hundred Aes Sedai at any given time that had sensed an Aes Sedai so dark that they were detectable as Shadowsworn. And if one Aes Sedai can serve the Dark One, why not more than one?

That requires that the Tower actually produce Black Ajah who are truly so dark, and I don't believe that the Tower is an environment capable of producing that. Not by lack of desire on the part of the BA, but due to the restrictions on their activities. Consider how much they risk exposure, and what a tight leash they have to reign themselves in under, always appearing to tell the truth, unable to risk exposure by taking a free hand in murder with the power. They're effective politicians.

Any of those things can be done by more light-minded Aes Sedai, so the lines become blurred.

They're too busy politicking to protect the secrecy of their existence to get up to anything really -dark- like a Forsaken would.

Weird Harold
02-07-2012, 01:48 PM
It wasn't my question, it was my stab at answering someone else's questions. But if there exists such thing as a Darkfriend that Aes Sedai can sense, how in the world can they deny the existence of a Black Ajah?


At a guess, the existence of individual DFs in the ranks of the WT does not automatically prove the existence of other DFs or any sort of organization or cooperation with other DFs.

Kimon
02-07-2012, 02:09 PM
That requires that the Tower actually produce Black Ajah who are truly so dark, and I don't believe that the Tower is an environment capable of producing that. Not by lack of desire on the part of the BA, but due to the restrictions on their activities. Consider how much they risk exposure, and what a tight leash they have to reign themselves in under, always appearing to tell the truth, unable to risk exposure by taking a free hand in murder with the power. They're effective politicians.

Any of those things can be done by more light-minded Aes Sedai, so the lines become blurred.

They're too busy politicking to protect the secrecy of their existence to get up to anything really -dark- like a Forsaken would.

The only BA sister that we have seen who clearly falls far beyond mere excessive ambition and pettiness is Temaile. Her sadism seemed to mirror Semirhage's. Yet even with Semirhage, she easily slipped amongst Seanchan society and never raised an eyebrow amongst the damane and sul'dam, yet presumably their dark-detectors should have triggered if there was any real validity to a possibility to sense mere DFs for channelers. What they can sense is shadowspawn, on account of their wrongness. DFs, except for the Grey Men (on account of their lacking of a soul) or Fain (on account of his dualism, and especially due to his combination with Mordeth - likely Moiraine sensed Mordeth as the wrongness in him more than his connection to the DO) wouldn't possess enough of this wrongness to likely be able to be detected except where such detection has become like a Talent. Both Fain and Rand clearly have this Talent. Unlikely that anyone else does. As Asmodean noted, Moiraine can't lie, that doesn't mean that she can't be incorrect.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 02:22 PM
The only BA sister that we have seen who clearly falls far beyond mere excessive ambition and pettiness is Temaile. Her sadism seemed to mirror Semirhage's. Yet even with Semirhage, she easily slipped amongst Seanchan society and never raised an eyebrow amongst the damane and sul'dam, yet presumably their dark-detectors should have triggered if there was any real validity to a possibility to sense mere DFs for channelers. What they can sense is shadowspawn, on account of their wrongness. DFs, except for the Grey Men (on account of their lacking of a soul) or Fain (on account of his dualism, and especially due to his combination with Mordeth - likely Moiraine sensed Mordeth as the wrongness in him more than his connection to the DO) wouldn't possess enough of this wrongness to likely be able to be detected except where such detection has become like a Talent. Both Fain and Rand clearly have this Talent. Unlikely that anyone else does. As Asmodean noted, Moiraine can't lie, that doesn't mean that she can't be incorrect.

The difference between Temaile and Semirhage is that Temaile is merely a skilled torturer in a society remarked for is animalization of an entire class of people, slavery, and other unsavory aspects, up to and including the same torture that every other nation in Randland employs.

Being a skilled torturer is a point against her, but hardly enough to get the DF-sense a'tingling.

Semirhage, on the other hand, has been involved in torture-based atrocities on a grand scale, as the head of a network specializing in torture so nasty that it turned people to the DO.

Kind of like comparing a shoulder-thumper with an assassin, it seems to me.

Kimon
02-07-2012, 02:39 PM
The difference between Temaile and Semirhage is that Temaile is merely a skilled torturer in a society remarked for is animalization of an entire class of people, slavery, and other unsavory aspects, up to and including the same torture that every other nation in Randland employs.

Being a skilled torturer is a point against her, but hardly enough to get the DF-sense a'tingling.

Semirhage, on the other hand, has been involved in torture-based atrocities on a grand scale, as the head of a network specializing in torture so nasty that it turned people to the DO.

Kind of like comparing a shoulder-thumper with an assassin, it seems to me.

Temaile wasn't just a skilled torturer, she also enjoyed it too much, to the extent that her associates not only took notice, but were actually frightened of her even considering that her strength in the power was pretty negligible. None of the other BA sisters we've met have matched such a description of intimidating sadism, and besides Semirhage and Aran'gar, nor has any of the Forsaken. The rest of them are just vindictive (like Mesaana, Demandred, Sammael, and Be'lal), or too logical (like Moridin, Graendal, and Alviarin), or just ambitious shmucks (everybody else). But in terms of scale of evil, do you really think that any besides Semirhage are really much worse than say Sevanna or Elaida? A sniffer would likely have felt the reek on any of the above, but is there really anything "wrong" enough about any DF not named Fain to warrant sensory detection? Maybe Semirhage or Temaile, but even that is likely more just an instinctive response, something along the lines of - I'm not sure why, but that woman scares the crap out of me. But that's not what Rand is doing. He seems to be capable almost of what we have seen only with Fain's ability to even sense those who might go dark.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 02:52 PM
Temaile wasn't just a skilled torturer, she also enjoyed it too much, to the extent that her associates not only took notice, but were actually frightened of her even considering that her strength in the power was pretty negligible.

How many thousands of other toruturers in the same age could be accused of the same? It almost necessarily comes with the territory, as you can either like it, hate it and hate yourself, or treat it with such apathy as to be a soulless creature. People who are not even necessarily associated with the DO, but simply vicious, evil people.

None of the other BA sisters we've met have matched such a description of intimidating sadism, and besides Semirhage and Aran'gar, nor has any of the Forsaken.

The difference is between thought and deed, and if the aura Shadowspawn exude is based as heavily in their acts as it appears, then that is the key difference between Semirhage and Temaile. The actual doing. To put it in more modern terms, a serial killer who has a racist MO is certainly evil, but not on Hitler's scale.
[/QUOTE]

It comes down to accomplishment coupled with a link to the DO, an accomplishment that leaves a stain. Someone like Fain would have a keen sense for not just the deed, but the link to the DO, because ultimately he is the DO's own creature, SH but without DO's essence.

Kimon
02-07-2012, 02:59 PM
How many thousands of other toruturers in the same age could be accused of the same? It almost necessarily comes with the territory, as you can either like it, hate it and hate yourself, or treat it with such apathy as to be a soulless creature. People who are not even necessarily associated with the DO, but simply vicious, evil people.



The difference is between thought and deed, and if the aura Shadowspawn exude is based as heavily in their acts as it appears, then that is the key difference between Semirhage and Temaile. The actual doing. To put it in more modern terms, a serial killer who has a racist MO is certainly evil, but not on Hitler's scale.



You're missing the point. I'm saying that the fact that channelers can sense Shadowspawn is due to their wrongness, not to their acts. Fain and the Grey Men also possess such wrongness. No one else would.

Davian93
02-07-2012, 03:01 PM
If sniffers could be used to sniff out darkfriends, dont you think that the Borderland rulers would have already done so. You're talking about a culture that does not allow you to wear a hood inside a town and has mandatory lights lit at all times to keep Fades at bay...I think they would have thought about such an idea at some point.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 03:02 PM
You're missing the point. I'm saying that the fact that channelers can sense Shadowspawn is due to their wrongness, not to their acts. Fain and the Grey Men also possess such wrongness. No one else would.

And exactly what part of them is "wrong"?

suttree
02-07-2012, 03:03 PM
You're missing the point. I'm saying that the fact that channelers can sense Shadowspawn is due to their wrongness, not to their acts. Fain and the Grey Men also possess such wrongness. No one else would.

So in essence Moir was wrong about the whole concept?

Crispin's Crispian
02-07-2012, 03:10 PM
Seems like all of you are missing one point. Rand didn't have magical DF sensing abilities in ToM. He had some kind of blinding aura that caused pain when a DF looked directly at him. This is why he told Weiramon to look him in the eye, and why he had to go down the line before figuring out which was which.

His exposure of Weiramon and whatshername had nothing to do with the people-sensing ability that LTT exhibited in "Dragonmount."

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 03:23 PM
Seems like all of you are missing one point. Rand didn't have magical DF sensing abilities in ToM. He had some kind of blinding aura that caused pain when a DF looked directly at him. This is why he told Weiramon to look him in the eye, and why he had to go down the line before figuring out which was which.


"So it is you," Rand said.

Apparently confirming some knowledge Rand possesses. So how is it he already had some knowledge? Fidgeting and failing to meet someone's gaze head on is hardly cause for suspicion unless Rand possesses some knowledge or insight about the evolution of his own powers.

Davian93
02-07-2012, 03:25 PM
"So it is you," Rand said.

Apparently confirming some knowledge Rand possesses. So how is it he already had some knowledge? Fidgeting and failing to meet someone's gaze head on is hardly cause for suspicion unless Rand possesses some knowledge or insight about the evolution of his own powers.


Verin's letter that he got in Tar Valon in the preceding chapter likely read "Yo Rand, Weiramon and Aniayella are Darkfriends...For Realz, Verin"

Them flinching and failing to look at him confirms it for him.

Weiramon
02-07-2012, 03:34 PM
Seems like all of you are missing one point. Rand didn't have magical DF sensing abilities in ToM. He had some kind of blinding aura that caused pain when a DF looked directly at him. This is why he told Weiramon to look him in the eye, and why he had to go down the line before figuring out which was which.

His exposure of Weiramon and whatshername had nothing to do with the people-sensing ability that LTT exhibited in "Dragonmount."

Burn my eyes, let's clear up some misconceptions and wild leaps of that awful heresy otherwise known as reason.

After a period of weeks of overcast skies, the Lord Dragon manifested a halo of sunlight and blue sky about himself. Anyone would squint for a moment as their sight adjusted to such uncommon brilliance.

No, it was clear the Lord Dragon needed to cow the other High Lords into submission, and having reached the end of the line-up with nothing to show, was cornered into making a false example of one of his most trusted and able advisors. It would not be a surprise to hear that he felt pangs of disappointment at being forced to make such a painful decision.

Grig
02-07-2012, 03:40 PM
Seems like all of you are missing one point. Rand didn't have magical DF sensing abilities in ToM. He had some kind of blinding aura that caused pain when a DF looked directly at him. This is why he told Weiramon to look him in the eye, and why he had to go down the line before figuring out which was which.

His exposure of Weiramon and whatshername had nothing to do with the people-sensing ability that LTT exhibited in "Dragonmount."

Nobody is missing anything. They simply may or may not have drawn different inferences from the scene you reference. Neither is right or wrong until sufficient information is provided to vindicate one or another (if such information is ever provided). While we do know that Rand has some sort of Light Aura, that does not discount the possibility that he can sense Darkfriends. Perhaps such sensing has limitations, such as "a Darkfriend is near" as opposed to "x person is a Darkfriend". This would fit just fine with him being able to sense if souls are near in "Dragonmount". In such a scenario, he used his Light Aura to confirm the source of what he was sensing.

From the same passage:

"I want you to deliver a message for me" Rand said. "To the others of your association. Tell them that they cannot hide among my allies any longer."

Weiramon tried to bluster, but Rand took a step closer. Weiramon's eyes opened wide, and Anaiyella cried out, shading her face.

If the only indicator that Rand has to detect Darkfriends is if they react to his Light Aura, this is not true. They simply would have to avoid looking at him (well, unless he goes all Maradon in their proximity, but he's not likely to perform another show of force like that until he goes to SH). Zen Rand doesn't seem the type to bluster and bluff. Or do you think that Verin's letter carried a list of ALL DARKFRIENDS, so now Rand knows who they all are?

Davian93
02-07-2012, 03:54 PM
Perhaps he's just bluffing...

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2012, 04:25 PM
If sniffers could be used to sniff out darkfriends, dont you think that the Borderland rulers would have already done so.
Nah, they wouldn't stoop that high.

Besides, there's this:
Ingtar nodded. Hurin grinned proudly, and said, "We will that – ah – Rand. I followed a murderer to Cairhien, once, and another all the way to Maradon, to bring them back for the King's justice." His grin faded, and he looked troubled. "This is the worst ever, though. Murder smells bad, and the trail of a murderer stinks with it, but this ..." His nose wrinkled. "There were men in it last night. Darkfriends, must be, but you can't tell a Darkfriend by smell. What I'll follow is the Trollocs, and the Halfmen. And something even worse." He trailed off, frowning and muttering to himself, but Rand could hear it. "Something even worse, the Light help me."

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 04:43 PM
Perhaps he's just bluffing...

Rather easily called bluff, if the darkfriend realizes that looking Rand in the eye is the only thing that got them busted.

"Hey everybody, let's pretend to be Gai'shain! :P

Kimon
02-07-2012, 04:47 PM
And exactly what part of them is "wrong"?

With the shadowspawn the wrongness is that they are unnatural constructs. Hence their inability to pass through a gateway and remain viable. Things that can pass through a gateway seem much harder to detect. Hence things like trollocs and draghkar can be sensed by channelers, but things like Grey Men and mere DFs cannot. Fain still remains an anomaly, but then he is also unnatural as a consequence of his duality. Of course, if that really is the key essence on why they can be sensed, one might then wonder if a channeler could sense the presence of a nym nearby, since they are also a construct.

eht slat meit
02-07-2012, 04:50 PM
With the shadowspawn the wrongness is that they are unnatural constructs. Hence their inability to pass through a gateway and remain viable. Things that can pass through a gateway seem much harder to detect. Hence things like trollocs and draghkar can be sensed by channelers, but things like Grey Men and mere DFs cannot. Fain still remains an anomaly, but then he is also unnatural as a consequence of his duality. Of course, if that really is the key essence on why they can be sensed, one might then wonder if a channeler could sense the presence of a nym nearby, since they are also a construct.

And the common denominator of their wrongness is the DO's touch, is it not?

Kimon
02-07-2012, 04:53 PM
And the common denominator of their wrongness is the DO's touch, is it not?

Not necessarily, with Fain this wrongness could well have been from Mordeth.

Toss the dice
02-07-2012, 08:49 PM
And the common denominator of their wrongness is the DO's touch, is it not?

Makes me wonder what changed with Alviarin after Shaidar Haran marked her forehead. Would she become much easier to detect? While it didn't leave a visible mark, she seemed pretty terrified all the same.

Crispin's Crispian
02-08-2012, 02:45 PM
Nobody is missing anything. They simply may or may not have drawn different inferences from the scene you reference. Neither is right or wrong until sufficient information is provided to vindicate one or another (if such information is ever provided). While we do know that Rand has some sort of Light Aura, that does not discount the possibility that he can sense Darkfriends. Perhaps such sensing has limitations, such as "a Darkfriend is near" as opposed to "x person is a Darkfriend". This would fit just fine with him being able to sense if souls are near in "Dragonmount". In such a scenario, he used his Light Aura to confirm the source of what he was sensing.
There's very little evidence that Rand has magic DF-sensing powers, and other evidence that suggests his discovery of Weiramon came about in a different way.

We know from earlier in Maradon that Rand casts an aura of light that is blinding to Darkfriends. We can infer that Rand learned about Weiramon from Verin's letter (hence, "so it is you"), but wanted to examine all the High Lords and Ladies to be sure. If he had such powers as you all had been discussing, he wouldn't have needed to do this at all. This is especially true if it is in any way related to Lews Therin's "soul sensing," because that can clearly done from a distance.

It looks to me like the guess that Rand even has such ability came about because of Brandon's comments regarding Lews Therin in "Dragonmount." Readers scrambled to find something related, and the best they could come up with was an otherwise completely unsupported Darkfriend-sensing ability.



If the only indicator that Rand has to detect Darkfriends is if they react to his Light Aura, this is not true. They simply would have to avoid looking at him (well, unless he goes all Maradon in their proximity, but he's not likely to perform another show of force like that until he goes to SH). Zen Rand doesn't seem the type to bluster and bluff. Or do you think that Verin's letter carried a list of ALL DARKFRIENDS, so now Rand knows who they all are?
I think it's quite possible that Verin told him everyone she knew about, which could be fairly extensive. It's also possible that he just means he knows about his blinding aura and how it will eventually out them.

What other evidence do you have that Rand can sense Darkfriends by looking at them?

eht slat meit
02-08-2012, 02:53 PM
We know from earlier in Maradon that Rand casts an aura of light that is blinding to Darkfriends.

Why is it improbable or a stretch to believe that Rand can see the same darkness in a Darkfriend that they can see of light in him?

On a side note, citing Verin as a source when the information to back it up isn't available seems like the same kind of unfounded association as you're suggesting is taking place between LTT and Rand.

Terez
02-08-2012, 03:41 PM
It looks to me like the guess that Rand even has such ability came about because of Brandon's comments regarding Lews Therin in "Dragonmount." Readers scrambled to find something related, and the best they could come up with was an otherwise completely unsupported Darkfriend-sensing ability.To be fair, people jumped to that conclusion right after the book came out, which was before Brandon said that.

greatwolf
02-08-2012, 04:35 PM
You're missing the point. I'm saying that the fact that channelers can sense Shadowspawn is due to their wrongness, not to their acts. Fain and the Grey Men also possess such wrongness. No one else would.

Mat? Or do we blame what Aginor sensed on the dagger?

Grig
02-08-2012, 06:26 PM
We can infer that Rand learned about Weiramon from Verin's letter (hence, "so it is you")

That statement doesn't seem to make sense based on your inference. If Verin told him Weiramon was a Darkfriend, what is this "so it is you"? He already knows who "it is", he just possibly doubts Verin's word. Instead, something like "so you really are a Darkfriend" would be the appropriate statement. "So it is you" makes it sound like he could sense a Darkfriend nearby, and for a long time he has had reason to suspect Weiramon, but couldn't absolutely confirm the source of the sense until the "unable to look at the Light Aura" thing.

If he had such powers as you all had been discussing, he wouldn't have needed to do this at all. This is especially true if it is in any way related to Lews Therin's "soul sensing," because that can clearly done from a distance.

I can sense when someone smells absolutely horrendously. But unless they have literal stink marks (or other obvious marks of poor hygiene), I wouldn't be able to pinpoint who it was in a large group until I was close enough.

It looks to me like the guess that Rand even has such ability came about because of Brandon's comments regarding Lews Therin in "Dragonmount."

Actually, no, as Terez noted this was a common theory right after ToM was released.

What other evidence do you have that Rand can sense Darkfriends by looking at them?

The quote I already provided? He straight tells the Shadow they can't hide. Lying would kill the whole Zen buzz, especially if hiding is as easy as "playing gai'shain" (thanks for that one, eht).

Lupusdeusest
02-08-2012, 06:55 PM
I think also there were plenty of hints it was Weiramon pre-TGS.

Kimon
02-08-2012, 07:05 PM
Mat? Or do we blame what Aginor sensed on the dagger?

That is the clear indication, since Aginor states the following:

"He guided us...An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek."

He sensed the dagger. We actually noticed that same problem of other lesser DFs using the dagger and Mat to track down Rand and his posse, such as with Howal Gode, Paitr, and Mili Skane. Moiraine actually comments on this when she first sees Mat again in Caemlyn.

I felt the evil of it when I laid eyes on him, the touch of Mashadar, but a Fade could sense it for miles. Even though he would not know where, he would know it was near, and Mashadar would draw his spirit while his bones remembered that this same evil swallowed an army ... Some Darkfriends could probably feel it, too. Those who had truly given away their souls. There could not help but be those who would wonder at suddenly feeling this, as if the very air around them itched. They would be compelled to seek it. It should have drawn them to it as a magnet draws iron filings.

eht slat meit
02-08-2012, 07:13 PM
He sensed the dagger. We actually noticed that same problem of other lesser DFs using the dagger and Mat to track down Rand and his posse, such as with Howal Gode, Paitr, and Mili Skane. Moiraine actually comments on this when she first sees Mat again in Caemlyn.

Mordeth isn't the dagger, and while Shadar Logoth's evil might have been apart of it, Fain has been Mordeth's host, not Mat.

Referring to the dagger as if it were Mordeth doesn't really make sense.

Kimon
02-08-2012, 07:19 PM
Mordeth isn't the dagger, and while Shadar Logoth's evil might have been apart of it, Fain has been Mordeth's host, not Mat.

Referring to the dagger as if it were Mordeth doesn't really make sense.

It is a part of that evil, which is why Moiraine warned them not to touch or take anything. It's also why Fain, once he had absorbed Mordeth, was so drawn to the dagger, and felt whole again only once he had retrieved it.

Davian93
02-08-2012, 07:25 PM
Exactly...Fain/Mordeth is the same evil as the dagger. That's why he can taint/twist people the way he does.

Crispin's Crispian
02-08-2012, 07:41 PM
That statement doesn't seem to make sense based on your inference. If Verin told him Weiramon was a Darkfriend, what is this "so it is you"? He already knows who "it is", he just possibly doubts Verin's word. Instead, something like "so you really are a Darkfriend" would be the appropriate statement. "So it is you" makes it sound like he could sense a Darkfriend nearby, and for a long time he has had reason to suspect Weiramon, but couldn't absolutely confirm the source of the sense until the "unable to look at the Light Aura" thing.


In the text, the "is" is emphasized, indicating that he suspected Weiramon but wasn't sure. The letter may have said something like, "There is a Darkfriend among the Tairen Lords, and my sources indicate Weiramon." That's total speculation of course.

He's also disappointed right after he finds out, showing that he had doubts. Doubts imply that someone told him ahead of time, or that he had is own worries. If he didn't know to look ahead of time, why did he have them all line up in the first place?

I can sense when someone smells absolutely horrendously. But unless they have literal stink marks (or other obvious marks of poor hygiene), I wouldn't be able to pinpoint who it was in a large group until I was close enough.
Good (if unpleasant) analogy. Again, though, why immediately ask Darlin to gather them in a receiving line? It seems that he knew what to do as soon as he arrived in Tear. He didn't see them and then decide to sniff out the DF.

Actually, no, as Terez noted this was a common theory right after ToM was released.
Sorry, I guess I meant moreso in this thread. And also, that Brandon's thing just added fuel to what was baseless speculation before.

The quote I already provided? He straight tells the Shadow they can't hide. Lying would kill the whole Zen buzz, especially if hiding is as easy as "playing gai'shain" (thanks for that one, eht).
So in order to catch them, he has to walk up right next to every one of them? That's going to take a while.

Crispin's Crispian
02-08-2012, 07:50 PM
Why is it improbable or a stretch to believe that Rand can see the same darkness in a Darkfriend that they can see of light in him?It's not improbable, it just doesn't have any evidence. The other theory does.

On a side note, citing Verin as a source when the information to back it up isn't available seems like the same kind of unfounded association as you're suggesting is taking place between LTT and Rand.

I don't understand what association between LTT and Rand you're talking about.

As for Verin, it's not unfounded at all. Verin had already been selling out the Shadow. She helped Egwene with the Black Ajah and helped Mat with Caemlyn (or tried to). Moreover, Tiana delivered a letter from someone directly to Rand when he was in the Tower, a letter with a red seal. Now it might be a coincidence, but Verin's letter to Mat was also sealed with red wax.

Terez has a theory on all this somewhere.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2012, 05:31 AM
There's very little evidence that Rand has magic DF-sensing powers, and other evidence that suggests his discovery of Weiramon came about in a different way.
I thought that there was an indication that Padan Fain could also sense DFs, or at least recognise them on sight, but I haven't managed to find that, yet.

Davian93
02-09-2012, 08:32 AM
I thought that there was an indication that Padan Fain could also sense DFs, or at least recognise them on sight, but I haven't managed to find that, yet.

There is...he mentions seeing a sootiness on their foreheads or some crap like that. Somewhere around Crown of Swords maybe.

Davian93
02-09-2012, 08:45 AM
Found it:


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 28 - Letters
Fain paced; he had to move. Al'Thor's downfall had to be his doing—his!—not the Chosen's. How could he hurt the man again, hurt to the heart? There were those nattering girls at Culain's Hound, but if al'Thor did not come when the Two Rivers was harrowed, what would he care even if Fain burned the inn down and the chits with it? What did he have to work with? Only a few remained of his onetime Children of the Light. That had only been a test really—he would have made the man who actually managed to kill al'Thor beg to be skinned alive!—yet it had cost him numbers: He had the Myrddraal, a handful of Trollocs hidden outside the city, a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar Valon. The pull of al'Thor dragged him on. It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2012, 08:59 AM
Of course, that may not be important, as it's not as if there is some kind of link between Padan and al'Thor, is there?

Zombie Sammael
02-09-2012, 10:02 AM
It's not improbable, it just doesn't have any evidence. The other theory does.

Go read TSR when Hadnan Kadere shows up and tell me there's no evidence for it.

I don't think Rand can sense any DF just by looking at them, but there is definitely something there with the eyes. I think he has to be looking into their eyes, and it might be purely confirmatory.

Oneirist
02-09-2012, 11:10 AM
I thought Rand was suspicious of Kadere because he was expecting Lanfear to be coming with one of the male Forsaken, and that his eyes just "never changed," as if he were feigning expressions.

Zombie Sammael
02-09-2012, 11:59 AM
I thought Rand was suspicious of Kadere because he was expecting Lanfear to be coming with one of the male Forsaken, and that his eyes just "never changed," as if he were feigning expressions.

It's far from the only "light/dark in the eyes" reference in the series. Look at the prophecy that says Mat has to give up half the light of the world to save the world, and how he actually accomplishes that.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 12:06 PM
It's far from the only "light/dark in the eyes" reference in the series. Look at the prophecy that says Mat has to give up half the light of the world to save the world, and how he actually accomplishes that.

Regarding Kadere, there is definitely an indication that Rand didn't trust him. But if Rand had this ability as far back as TSR, how did he manage to hang out with so many Darkfriends and Forsaken and not notice? What about Taim, Dashiva, any of the evil Asha'man, Elza, etc.? Prior to the time with Weiramon, there's no mention of Rand knowing that someone is a DF just by sensing/looking.

Terez
02-09-2012, 12:07 PM
Regarding Kadere, there is definitely an indication that Rand didn't trust him. But if Rand had this ability as far back as TSR, how did he manage to hang out with so many Darkfriends and Forsaken and not notice? What about Taim, Dashiva, any of the evil Asha'man, Elza, etc.? Prior to the time with Weiramon, there's no mention of Rand knowing that someone is a DF just by sensing/looking.He was suppressing his Lews Therin memories, of course.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 12:08 PM
As I noted to Zombie above, why is Weiramon the first time we've heard of this from Rand? We know that Forsaken and Fain can detect Darkfriends, and somehow Moiraine was able to do it with Fain. But Rand before his integration? Is there any evidence?

Davian93
02-09-2012, 12:11 PM
He was suppressing his Lews Therin memories, of course.

Memory? You mean soul, dont you? I mean, I thought it was clearly evident from the books that LTT's soul was there and that Rand was a 2nd separate soul. LTT is real, damnit!

Zombie Sammael
02-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Regarding Kadere, there is definitely an indication that Rand didn't trust him. But if Rand had this ability as far back as TSR, how did he manage to hang out with so many Darkfriends and Forsaken and not notice? What about Taim, Dashiva, any of the evil Asha'man, Elza, etc.? Prior to the time with Weiramon, there's no mention of Rand knowing that someone is a DF just by sensing/looking.

Well, there are two strands to that: First, we know from Nynaeve that something has changed in Rand's brain since VOG, and also that there is massive evil nasty taint badness in there as well. At the time he saw Kadere in the Waste, he barely knew how to channel; the ability could have been nerfed by the taint in some way, and come back now that Rand has some protection from it.

Second is the point I made in my original post: he probably needs to (1) look directly into the eyes and (2) have a prior suspicion. For a significant chunk of the series, Rand's been suspicious of everyone, so no doubt that was having some effect on the ability. It's also not that unlikely that he just didn't look as deeply into the eyes of people for as long as he needed - especially if some facet of his ability to make DFs turn from his gaze was already in place.

Both of these are possible, because Rand didn't become the Champion of the Light at the end of TGS; he was already the Dragon Reborn. VOG was more like a confirmation of this status, for want of a better term.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 12:14 PM
He was suppressing his Lews Therin memories, of course.

He picked one of the worst possible memories to suppress, then, didn't he? Are you suggesting that the Voice's rant about Taim was because Rand subconsciously sensed his Darkness?

I might have to go back and look at his interactions with Weiramon, Elza, and the others to see if the Voice ever says anything else. It's easy to write it off as simple mistrust, though.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 12:16 PM
Well, there are two strands to that: First, we know from Nynaeve that something has changed in Rand's brain since VOG, and also that there is massive evil nasty taint badness in there as well. At the time he saw Kadere in the Waste, he barely knew how to channel; the ability could have been nerfed by the taint in some way, and come back now that Rand has some protection from it.

Second is the point I made in my original post: he probably needs to (1) look directly into the eyes and (2) have a prior suspicion. For a significant chunk of the series, Rand's been suspicious of everyone, so no doubt that was having some effect on the ability. It's also not that unlikely that he just didn't look as deeply into the eyes of people for as long as he needed - especially if some facet of his ability to make DFs turn from his gaze was already in place.

Both of these are possible, because Rand didn't become the Champion of the Light at the end of TGS; he was already the Dragon Reborn. VOG was more like a confirmation of this status, for want of a better term.

It's certainly possible. I should be clear that I'm not dismissing the idea of Rand having such a DF sensing ability. I'm merely saying that, speculation aside, we don't really have evidence for it in the Weiramon case while we do have prior evidence of the Glare (heh) effect.

Terez
02-09-2012, 12:20 PM
He picked one of the worst possible memories to suppress, then, didn't he? Are you suggesting that the Voice's rant about Taim was because Rand subconsciously sensed his Darkness? It's quite possible.

I might have to go back and look at his interactions with Weiramon, Elza, and the others to see if the Voice ever says anything else. It's easy to write it off as simple mistrust, though.Well, he never had quite the same feeling about women, for obvious reasons. It was Kadere's eyes he went on about, not Isendre or Kielle or Natael for that matter. So it may be there is something to that 'far gone' bit; one might say Kadere was even more 'far gone' than Asmodean and Lanfear. Weiramon had such a good stupid act that Rand probably misinterpreted his mistrust. And the voice actually claimed to like Weiramon, but that was in TGS so take that for what it's worth.

Grig
02-09-2012, 12:48 PM
Well, he never had quite the same feeling about women, for obvious reasons.

While I agree in general...


from tDR
“You have chosen a good campsite, young man,” she said. “I have often used it on my way to Remen. There is a small spring nearby. I trust you have no objection to my sharing it?” Her guards were already dismounting, hitching at their sword belts and loosening saddle girths. “None,” Rand told her. Careful. Two steps brought him close enough, and he leaped into the air, spinning - Thistledown Floats on the Whirlwind - heron-mark blade carved from fire coming into his hands to take her head off before surprise could even form on her face. She was the most dangerous.

She isn't Aes Sedai, and she has no weapon. What could he be sensing that makes her the most dangerous? Also note that she was traveling with a Gray Man, although she needn't have known he was with her group. Nothing is mentioned about her eyes, only that she had a bun and a no-nonsense look (sounds like the beta version of Cadsuane), but that could just be omission. This is before his List, though, so it might just be that he forced himself to ignore such feelings from women after Moiraine's death.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2012, 12:52 PM
Maybe he just randomly butchered travelers he met while on his way to Tear, and the only one we happened to see in the book was an actual DF?

Kimon
02-09-2012, 12:55 PM
As I noted to Zombie above, why is Weiramon the first time we've heard of this from Rand? We know that Forsaken and Fain can detect Darkfriends, and somehow Moiraine was able to do it with Fain. But Rand before his integration? Is there any evidence?

Well duh, this was one of the cheesy new abilities he automatically gained when he leveled up from nihilistic messiah to prozac demi-god on dragonmount...

Frankly, I miss Dark Rand.

Terez
02-09-2012, 12:56 PM
Well, he knew he was being hunted, so he had good reason to be suspicious. It seems like his Darkfriend sense was most keen before he started suppressing his Lews Therin memories (which he didn't know to do until he realized where those memories were coming from).

Grig
02-09-2012, 01:00 PM
Maybe he just randomly butchered travelers he met while on his way to Tear, and the only one we happened to see in the book was an actual DF?

Technically, we don't even know that she's a Darkfriend (although it seems a reasonable inference, and I believe that was the author's intent), but I felt the need to toss it out there. I've played with the idea that Rand was randomly killing peasants in paranoia on his way to the Stone before, and while it's fun I just don't think it was the author's intent (RJ wasn't much of a deconstructionist). But it is an amusing mental image.

Terez
02-09-2012, 01:20 PM
Technically, we don't even know that she's a Darkfriend (although it seems a reasonable inference, and I believe that was the author's intent), but I felt the need to toss it out there.Actually, we do know, and we also know that we were, indeed, expected to know.
INTERVIEW:Oct 2nd, 2005Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-327-one-more-time/)

ROBERT JORDAN
For Rifty, the extra body Rand found was that of a Gray Man. And, by the way, proof that the lady was no lady. She was a Darkfriend.

Grig
02-09-2012, 01:24 PM
My mistake. I do disagree with Jordan that the Gray Man was proof that she was a Darkfriend (they're well-known for being sneaky sneaky and could have simply been using her as a diversion -- not that Gray Men need such), but Jordan stating it definitely is proof.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 02:00 PM
While I agree in general...


from tDR


She isn't Aes Sedai, and she has no weapon. What could he be sensing that makes her the most dangerous? Also note that she was traveling with a Gray Man, although she needn't have known he was with her group. Nothing is mentioned about her eyes, only that she had a bun and a no-nonsense look (sounds like the beta version of Cadsuane), but that could just be omission. This is before his List, though, so it might just be that he forced himself to ignore such feelings from women after Moiraine's death.

Technically, we don't even know that she's a Darkfriend (although it seems a reasonable inference, and I believe that was the author's intent), but I felt the need to toss it out there. I've played with the idea that Rand was randomly killing peasants in paranoia on his way to the Stone before, and while it's fun I just don't think it was the author's intent (RJ wasn't much of a deconstructionist). But it is an amusing mental image.

You know, that scene always bothered me. This actually explains it pretty well, though it doesn't explain how he missed some other DFs. Moreover, somehow the Forsaken must be able to mask their Darkness, else Selene wouldn't have been a surprise (not to mention Dashiva).

As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.

Zombie Sammael
02-09-2012, 02:32 PM
You know, that scene always bothered me. This actually explains it pretty well, though it doesn't explain how he missed some other DFs. Moreover, somehow the Forsaken must be able to mask their Darkness, else Selene wouldn't have been a surprise (not to mention Dashiva).

As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.

Possible explanation for the Forsaken: Selene was never with Rand around people for long enough to have an effect (note that Lanfear is actually quite careful about avoiding people in TGH; perhaps this is why). By the time Dashiva showed up, Rand was getting to the point where he was so paranoid he was causing the darkness effect himself, so there was no need to mask it.

Grig
02-09-2012, 02:58 PM
Moreover, somehow the Forsaken must be able to mask their Darkness, else Selene wouldn't have been a surprise (not to mention Dashiva).


Selene had two very good distractions. Dashiva...well, by the time he came on the scene, Rand ignored any of his instincts about male channelers because he associates them with LTT wanting to kill every last one of them.

fionwe1987
02-09-2012, 03:19 PM
As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.
And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.

Weiramon
02-09-2012, 04:59 PM
And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.

Pshaww.

Clearly Bashere went over to the shadow when he visited the lady Suroth with that Karldin fellow, revealing the location of the Lord Dragon to one of the Forsaken. Likely he met with the Lady Tuon's Truthspeaker and found her quite . . . compelling.

No doubt this Karldin fellow is trustworthy despite his constant scowling and his Aes Sedai's black moods sharp as a spinning knife, but Bashere should be exiled or executed.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 05:07 PM
Selene had two very good distractions. Dashiva...well, by the time he came on the scene, Rand ignored any of his instincts about male channelers because he associates them with LTT wanting to kill every last one of them.

Hmm...don't really buy it about Selene. A better option is subtle Compulsion. But he still got no weird vibe from her even up until the point that she revealed herself.

No way he was too busy being slackjawed to just ignore his spidey-sense.

eht slat meit
02-09-2012, 05:11 PM
And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.

On the other hand, there's still Compulsion, which is potentially just as destructive as an actual DF betrayal.

Something to consider: All the simping Bashere does during the books about Tenobia having his head, as if he isn't a Great General capable of making serious decisions and then accepting the consequences...

... might that be his subconscious trying to worm a way around a Compulsion - to stay with Rand and betray him at an opportune moment?

Grig
02-09-2012, 05:22 PM
All the simping Bashere does during the books about Tenobia having his head, as if he isn't a Great General capable of making serious decisions and then accepting the consequences...


That's actually...a really good point I hadn't thought about before. Contrast with Yoeli in ToM, who basically does what he has to and disobeys orders, fully expecting to confess and be hung for it afterwards. Is Bashere a really bad Saldaean, or had that particular trait not been established yet? Or is Yoeli just weird?

eht slat meit
02-09-2012, 05:40 PM
No, I considered it a casual remark made for Rand's benefit the first time Bashere said it. After all, that -is- important information, that his former liege will probably have his head for failing to obey and that Rand may have to intercede.

After the first time, however, it just came across as strange and kind of whiny, as if we should be sympathetic to him.

Strange, because it seems to me that a requisite of being a Great Captain is to be able to accept the consequences of what you've done so that you can learn from it and avoid doing the same thing again later.

Crispin's Crispian
02-09-2012, 06:44 PM
No, I considered it a casual remark made for Rand's benefit the first time Bashere said it. After all, that -is- important information, that his former liege will probably have his head for failing to obey and that Rand may have to intercede.

After the first time, however, it just came across as strange and kind of whiny, as if we should be sympathetic to him.

Strange, because it seems to me that a requisite of being a Great Captain is to be able to accept the consequences of what you've done so that you can learn from it and avoid doing the same thing again later.

So who Compelled him? Demandred? Or...is Tenobia one of the Chosen? ;)

fionwe1987
02-09-2012, 07:23 PM
I never got the feeling Bashere was whining. It just came off as realistic.

And Yoeli has a whole different amount of power compared to Bashere. Yoeli wasn't even a noble, Bashere was Tenobia's cousin, a powerful lord in his own right. I doubt accepting beheading for a politically and morally correct choice even occurred to him.

eht slat meit
02-09-2012, 11:52 PM
So who Compelled him? Demandred? Or...is Tenobia one of the Chosen? ;)

My guess? Either Ishamael did it after Taim defeated Bashere the first time around, or Demandred did it sometime just before TFoH when Tenobia sent Bashere after Taim yet again.

Probably the reason Taim mocks Bashere - despite being a Great General, the man has never succeeded in defeating him.

Might even have been Semi when Bashere had his meeting with Suroth.

Actually, Compulsion seems to work better from women, I understand? and Demandred had the benefit of an alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage to pull that off if need be.

So, any of those five. Because honestly, it makes sense from a tactical perspective, when a big battle is coming, to either take the greatest generals off the field or turn them to your side.

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2012, 05:49 AM
As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.
You have a point with Rhuarc. But as for Min: did Rand ever look at her eyes?

final death
02-18-2012, 02:33 PM
You have a point with Rhuarc. But as for Min: did Rand ever look at her eyes?

Yes he did every single night he spent with her.:D Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.:(

Zombie Sammael
02-18-2012, 02:46 PM
Yes he did every single night he spent with her.:D Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.:(

Nah, that was Mat and Tylin.

Kimon
02-18-2012, 03:17 PM
Yes he did every single night he spent with her.:D Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.:(

Well, Rand does seem to provide us with far more frequent descriptions of her hips and of the shortness of her coats than of her eyes...