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Davian93
02-09-2012, 07:02 PM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/09/10364262-marines-posed-with-flag-resembling-nazi-ss-logo-in-afghanistan

How fvcking stupid could they possibly be?

Scout Sniper my arse.

Res_Ipsa
02-09-2012, 09:29 PM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/mcdonalds-hamburger-lured-naked-man-off-downtown-tower.html

Fail too. If I lived on the West Coast, nothing short of Inn n Out Burger would get me down.


I don't really have an opinion on the Marines. People do stupid things at times, and some other articles on the issue have some advocacy groups spouting off. It was stupid (and wrong) what the Marines did, but the interest group calling for criminal charges is just silly.

tworiverswoman
02-09-2012, 09:46 PM
I am unsure what to think about the SS barracks flag, as I can't tell from this article if the font was chosen deliberately or not. I had no idea it looked like a Nazi mark until I read this - and it wasn't until one of the commenters posted a link to a photo of a Nazi helmet (http://www.militaryheadgear.com/system/photos/000/012/808/large/SS_%22Double_Runic%22_M-40_Steel_Helmet.jpg?1274192445)that I really understood. It is POSSIBLE that the Marines just saw a font they thought looked cool and used it. It's also possible that the one who chose it was a Nazi sympathizer. But I have no info either way.

HOWEVER, I felt compelled to post the following comment that amused me...
rickinmichigan (http://rickinmichigan.newsvine.com/)

They should have used a flag of the Jesus Christ grilled cheese sandwich.



ETA: Just noticed that KISS (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SF4RhCwB-Hw/TxR7cPbs2BI/AAAAAAAACMQ/DF9MsVP0xzU/s1600/kiss%252Blogo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elcinequenospario.blogspot.com/2012/01/kiss-i-wanna-rocknroll-all-night.html&h=480&w=640&sz=49&tbnid=WQeuZNHBnQW6pM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&zoom=1&docid=jybOxKCF-rka3M&sa=X&ei=zJM0T97aDYSMigLA7q30CA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&dur=2487) uses the exact same font: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SF4RhCwB-Hw/TxR7cPbs2BI/AAAAAAAACMQ/DF9MsVP0xzU/s1600/kiss%252Blogo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elcinequenospario.blogspot.com/2012/01/kiss-i-wanna-rocknroll-all-night.html&h=480&w=640&sz=49&tbnid=WQeuZNHBnQW6pM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&zoom=1&docid=jybOxKCF-rka3M&sa=X&ei=zJM0T97aDYSMigLA7q30CA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&dur=2487

Sarevok
02-10-2012, 04:57 AM
HOWEVER, I felt compelled to post the following comment that amused me...
ETA: Just noticed that KISS (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SF4RhCwB-Hw/TxR7cPbs2BI/AAAAAAAACMQ/DF9MsVP0xzU/s1600/kiss%252Blogo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elcinequenospario.blogspot.com/2012/01/kiss-i-wanna-rocknroll-all-night.html&h=480&w=640&sz=49&tbnid=WQeuZNHBnQW6pM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&zoom=1&docid=jybOxKCF-rka3M&sa=X&ei=zJM0T97aDYSMigLA7q30CA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&dur=2487) uses the exact same font: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SF4RhCwB-Hw/TxR7cPbs2BI/AAAAAAAACMQ/DF9MsVP0xzU/s1600/kiss%252Blogo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elcinequenospario.blogspot.com/2012/01/kiss-i-wanna-rocknroll-all-night.html&h=480&w=640&sz=49&tbnid=WQeuZNHBnQW6pM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&zoom=1&docid=jybOxKCF-rka3M&sa=X&ei=zJM0T97aDYSMigLA7q30CA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&dur=2487

However, KISS has the letter KI in front of the SS. Also, they aren't a military unit.

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2012, 05:02 AM
However, KISS has the letter KI in front of the SS. Also, they aren't a military unit.
Well, yes, but then, they were very deliberately out to shock and provoke the sensibilities of "the people". So they had an understandable reason for picking that specific font.

With the US Marines, it may of course be that every single one of them is either too stupid, too ignorant, or both, to have any awareness at all what they were doing. That would be especially likely if none of them ever saw a WWII movie. Can that last be proven, I wonder?

tworiverswoman
02-10-2012, 12:06 PM
Gonzo - please take note that it wasn't "the U.S. Marines" per se - it was a single group and quite possibly only a single PERSON who chose that particular design.

Like I said - *I* would never have known it was a significant design and I'm pretty sure that there are damn few Nazi sympathizers in the U.S. Marines.

It's even possible that the person who designed the flag was a KISS fan, really. Since no one has yet offered a SINGLE response from anyone actually a MEMBER of that group of men, don't you think it might be a good idea to go with "innocent until proven guilty?" Davian, that's aimed at you, too.

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2012, 12:29 PM
I would be surprised if no one in that group had had a clue. Innocent until proven guilty is one thing, but ignorant until proven to have had at least 5 years of education is something else.

It is possible that they are all that uneducated, I'll admit. But I wouldn't want to make that assumption.

confused at birth
02-10-2012, 12:39 PM
It is possible that they are all that uneducated, I'll admit. But I wouldn't want to make that assumption.

America is only rated as average in education and most of its war movies seem to be about fighting Japan or robots so I would give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are just ignorant.

Unless one of them is found with his pants down and a picture of hitler I will go with most of them probably not knowing what it what it meant.

Uno
02-10-2012, 12:59 PM
They might not have known, but to me that's pretty close to not knowing about the swastika. Just seeing the SS-symbol sends a chill down my spine.

Khoram
02-10-2012, 01:21 PM
Ignorance is one thing. But this? I find it absolutely flabbergasting why they would so choose to pose with this flag. I mean, there are ten guys in the photo, as well as whoever's taking the picture. At least one of them should have known better. You would think.

As Uno said, the SS symbol is as infamous as the Nazi swastika, and not knowing of one doesn't seem legitimate.

Firseal
02-10-2012, 01:25 PM
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
-Hanlon's Razor.
(There are a half dozen similar maxims as well)

Given what most marines I have met are like, I sincerely doubt this was intentional on any level. Not only could it be easily explained as a foolish and ignorant mistake but pretty much any marine I've met personally (and I've met more than a few) would start muttering about friendly fire frags if they thought someone was seriously advocating anything like SS idealology.

Heinz
02-10-2012, 01:34 PM
You'd be amazed at how many would not even know the Nazi symbol on sight, much less the SS. I'd venture to guess that most do not know what the SS even was. At BEST, the majority of people would respond "Um... some secret police?", and have no idea of why they are infamous.

And while I agree it was in poor choice by the Marine(s) who came up with the flag/symbol, I doubt it was deliberate. Like the swaztika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika), the double Sig rune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_Rune) was not a Nazi creation and predates them by.. quite a bit. In the double-Sig rune's case, it makes the abbreviation for 'Scout Sniper' look like two cool lightning bolts. As I said, poor choice on the Marine(s) part, but not worth the tizzy. Especially considering the coloration of the flag they have is all wrong.

The Nazi's were not the first to use these symbols, and given time they won't be the last.

Gilshalos Sedai
02-10-2012, 04:00 PM
Current conceptions of Nazis are drawn entirely from video games. Which don't do a lot of in-depth "these guys are bad....m'kay?"

They probably see nothing more wrong with it than posing with this symbol:

http://cdn103.iofferphoto.com/img/item/597/228/26/f3e4_1.JPG

That being said, ignorance is no excuse.

confused at birth
02-10-2012, 04:28 PM
That being said, ignorance is no excuse.

I have never been able to understand why people say this, if you dont know something is wrong or illegal and no one bothers to tell you why would you think twice about doing it?:confused:

If it was illegal to own a blue shirt and I didnt know and no one thouhgt it was important enough to tell me I would think not knowing was a bloody good excuse for owning one.

Nothing about the SS was ever taught at my school the only reason I know anything about them is my own research and watching the history channel.

If it isnt part of the curriculum in all schools and none of them had any interest in history why would they know what it meant?

Zombie Sammael
02-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Current conceptions of Nazis are drawn entirely from video games. Which don't do a lot of in-depth "these guys are bad....m'kay?"

They probably see nothing more wrong with it than posing with this symbol:

That being said, ignorance is no excuse.

Okay this is driving me crazy now. What is that symbol?

Heinz
02-10-2012, 04:38 PM
It is the Imperial symbol from Star Wars.

Which was shown in the prequels as a Jedi/Republic symbol, actually.

And I happen to have tattoo'd to my arm.

tworiverswoman
02-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Look, I am a reasonably well-educated, intelligent, adult American and I have NEVER BEFORE SEEN the "SS" symbol, in any way that has stuck with me.

"Diary of Anne Frank" was required reading for me, but it's not a picture book. I dislike war movies, generally speaking. I've never seen "Schindler's List" where I assume it probably was prominent (and if not, why not?).

I truly believe that this was probably a real case of ignorance and "Ooh, that looks cool!"

And I'm firmly with CaB -- how can ignorance NOT be an excuse? If the ignorance is remedied and you STILL refuse to change something, then you have a case for malice - but if the error/crime isn't known, then how can you hold them actionable?

When the Galactic Tribunal decides that Earthlings need to make reparations to the tune of 12 Billion ziglugings because of the continuing pollutions of the spaceways with our recorded broadcasts over the last hundred years, I'll bet you'll want to claim, "But we didn't KNOW!"

Khoram
02-10-2012, 04:45 PM
I have never been able to understand why people say this, if you dont know something is wrong or illegal and no one bothers to tell you why would you think twice about doing it?:confused:

If it was illegal to own a blue shirt and I didnt know and no one thouhgt it was important enough to tell me I would think not knowing was a bloody good excuse for owning one.

Nothing about the SS was ever taught at my school the only reason I know anything about them is my own research and watching the history channel.

If it isnt part of the curriculum in all schools and none of them had any interest in history why would they know what it meant?

Yes, but it would be your responsibility to find out. In the case of the OP, there's got to be some way of making sure that the design you're proposing to be used for a flag is not in any way illegal or forbidden due to ideological reasons.

confused at birth
02-10-2012, 05:02 PM
Yes, but it would be your responsibility to find out. In the case of the OP, there's got to be some way of making sure that the design you're proposing to be used for a flag is not in any way illegal or forbidden due to ideological reasons.


Well yeah they should have shown it to someone higher up the food chain to make sure it acceptable before they did it. If it didnt get rejected after that then you would have a problem because at least one officer should have some basic knowledge of military history in every army

I dont think it is my resposibility to find out if something is wrong for every possible situation. When you go to a new environment the basic of its rights and wrongs are normally explained like company policies or health and safety issues but I am not going to read a law book just to find out if I might be doing something wrong.

I would never expect someone to have to read dozens of law books or history books just because them not knowing might piss someone off. If it is important why didnt someone give them a talking too and explain why it wrong before they have a chance to offend if it isnt important dont bite their head off for not knowing.

Since this is something that apparantly isnt common knowledge and isnt part of their job to know I dont think they should be in any trouble.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Anyone who has served can confirm this but trust me...there are far too many amateur military historians in every military unit for one of them to NOT recognize it. They knew what it was and probably thought it was funny.

Sukoto
02-10-2012, 05:48 PM
This discussion is making me dizzy.

First: In court, ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense.

Therefore: If what the Marine(s) did is a crime, then ignorance of the law does not exempt them from punishment. The military may take a similar stance when it comes to breaking their rules. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse.

However: If the Marine Corps didn't decide it was against their rules to use a design that resembles a Nazi symbol until after the deed was done, then ignorance of the Nazi symbol most certainly should be an acceptable excuse.

For the record, I recall having heard of the Nazi SS before from movies or history lessons, but I had no idea what their symbol was. Just like tworiverswoman, if I ever saw it before, it was nothing memorable. I have known about the swastika, however, since I was a child. It is entirely possible that no one on that small team of Marines knew what the SS was or what symbol they used.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 05:50 PM
Military guys live military history...its part of the lifestyle.

FWIW, I dont think what they did was illegal...just stupid is all.

Cor Shan
02-10-2012, 05:54 PM
I don't know the overlap between "teens who played COD/BF1942/etc" and "people who join the US Marines later", but I'd imagine that someone should have known it from computer games, if not military history.

Sukoto
02-10-2012, 05:58 PM
Anyone who has served can confirm this but trust me...there are far too many amateur military historians in every military unit for one of them to NOT recognize it. They knew what it was and probably thought it was funny.
I'll have to have my wife show the article to her students and ask them if they recognize the SS symbol. She teaches military personnel, and they are often very young and don't know any history whatsoever.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 06:06 PM
I'll have to have my wife show the article to her students and ask them if they recognize the SS symbol. She teaches military personnel, and they are often very young and don't know any history whatsoever.

Are they part of an elite special forces type unit? Those guys are intense and they live this stuff. I guarantee several of them knew it.

confused at birth
02-10-2012, 06:06 PM
First: In court, ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense.

Therefore: If what the Marine(s) did is a crime, then ignorance of the law does not exempt them from punishment. The military may take a similar stance when it comes to breaking their rules. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse.



there is a difference though, ignorance of the lawe should be an excuse or you would be expected to know the law and wouldnt need a lawyer in court.

Most militaries require you to learn the regulations during training and officers should get further education so they know how to do their jobs when they are required to discipline troops.

Military guys live military history...its part of the lifestyle.

FWIW, I dont think what they did was illegal...just stupid is all.

If they dont study military history they are likely to become it but that doesnt mean every member has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all military symbols

And you are right it is stupid but since people are making a big deal out of it they should decide if they didnt know or just didnt care before even thinking about any form of punishment.

If they didnt know, well they do now. If they didnt care then they should be punished for using it but nothing to serious unless it could be proved that they really believe in what it represents.


I don't know the overlap between "teens who played COD/BF1942/etc" and "people who join the US Marines later", but I'd imagine that someone should have known it from computer games, if not military history.


COD god no Medal of Honor Frontline is the best WW2 game. I liked it when the germans had things on their helmets it gave me something to aim for with my sniper rifle

Davian93
02-10-2012, 06:11 PM
***If they dont study military history they are likely to become it but that doesnt mean every member has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all military symbols***

I would put money on them having seen Inglorious Bastards if nothing else. And I've yet to meet a military guy that hasnt watched Band of Brothers a million times.

Or played CoD, etc etc.

Uno
02-10-2012, 06:12 PM
Doesn't the US military have an institute for heraldry that has to approve of any flags, symbols, or insignia used by its personell? If so, this is probably a violation of those regulations, no matter what the intention what. Not that one necessarily has to make a huge case of it.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 06:13 PM
Doesn't the US military have an institute for heraldry that has to approve of any flags, symbols, or insignia used by its personell? If so, this is probably a violation of those regulations, no matter what the intention what. Not that one necessarily has to make a huge case of it.

I doubt this was anything other than a inside thing for that unit and not an official flag of any sort...it literally was something they probably made right before the photo.

I doubt there was any malice or anti-semitism involved...just pure stupidity.

Uno
02-10-2012, 06:15 PM
I doubt this was anything other than a inside thing for that unit and not an official flag of any sort...it literally was something they probably made right before the photo.

That's what I mean. When I was in the Norwegian army, you jolly well couldn't make up your own symbols or insignia. You had to get approval for that kind of thing, and doing it without approval would result in someone up top being upset.

confused at birth
02-10-2012, 06:19 PM
just pure stupidity.

Freshly bottled 100% Pure Stupidity

America's number one export since 2001:p

Sukoto
02-10-2012, 06:45 PM
Are they part of an elite special forces type unit? Those guys are intense and they live this stuff. I guarantee several of them knew it.
Well, when you put it that way... no. I didn't realize the scout snipers were elite. That just goes to show how my knowledge of the U.S. military isn't much better than my knowledge of the WWII-era German military.

Sukoto
02-10-2012, 06:58 PM
Freshly bottled 100% Pure Stupidity

America's number one export since 2001:p
Well, it's better to export stupidity than to import it. :p

Durvasha
02-10-2012, 07:10 PM
I bristle everytime I hear people maligning the Swastika. A symbol is in use for millenia, a despicable guy/institution used it for his insignia, and the sacred symbol of a billion people becomes reviled. What the hell!

Khoram
02-10-2012, 07:44 PM
I bristle everytime I hear people maligning the Swastika. A symbol is in use for millenia, a despicable guy/institution used it for his insignia, and the sacred symbol of a billion people becomes reviled. What the hell!

The swastika in and of itself is not a bad symbol - it's the fact that it is now associated with one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century - within living memory. The swastika was (and still is) used as a symbol for good luck - hell, even the Dalai Lama has associated with the swastika - with the idea of good luck. It was even used on the hems of the garments of statues of bishops. So the swastika is not a bad symbol.

The main idea is that it is now associated with Hitler because he warped its meaning to suit his needs. Just like he did with the Roman Eagle, the same as what Mussolini did with the Roman Bundled Sticjs to represent fascism.

I get what you're saying.

Durvasha
02-10-2012, 08:23 PM
For Hindus Swastika is almost as important as "Om". And it predates Dalai lama, even Budhha by centuries at least. In every Hindu religious ceremony, you will find Swastika drawn on the prayer floor around the fire.. Just because someone else used it, sometimes there is talk about banning it entirely.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 08:38 PM
For Hindus Swastika is almost as important as "Om". And it predates Dalai lama, even Budhha by centuries at least. In every Hindu religious ceremony, you will find Swastika drawn on the prayer floor around the fire.. Just because someone else used it, sometimes there is talk about banning it entirely.

Ric Romero says...The Holocaust was kinda a big deal.

eht slat meit
02-10-2012, 08:50 PM
For Hindus Swastika is almost as important as "Om". And it predates Dalai lama, even Budhha by centuries at least. In every Hindu religious ceremony, you will find Swastika drawn on the prayer floor around the fire.. Just because someone else used it, sometimes there is talk about banning it entirely.

Part of the problem is that for a great many people, the only experience they have with swastikas is the context it was given in WWII.

Durvasha
02-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Ric Romero says...The Holocaust was kinda a big deal.

I am sorry if it appeared that I was saing that Holocaust was not one of the biggest tragedy that we have seen. What I am saying is that, even though Hitler used it as a symbol, symbol is not the thing itself. Hitler didnot invented Swastika, he invented Nazism. We do not agree with Nazism, we hate it, we abhor it. But why should our second major religious symbol be reviled because of him? For me, if I was a believer and followed my priest, I must wear a ring/locket with Swastika symbol :D. If I do it here in NZ, I will be an instant pariah. Isn't it nearly the same as "Deathly Hollows symbol" in Harry Potter? An ancient symbol claimed by an evil person. Why can't we reclaim it back rather than surrendering the symbol to his memory?

Btw, this is the last I will say on this subject. I am not a tactful person, and I may be stepping on toes here. But please understand that I am indoctrinated to think of Swastika as a sacred sign of auspicious omen not a reviled one. I do not spit but bow my head when I see it. I am sorry if that seems like decreasing the memory of holocaust.

Davian93
02-10-2012, 09:16 PM
I am sorry if it appeared that I was saing that Holocaust was not one of the biggest tragedy that we have seen. What I am saying is that, even though Hitler used it as a symbol, symbol is not the thing itself. Hitler didnot invented Swastika, he invented Nazism. We do not agree with Nazism, we hate it, we abhor it. But why should our second major religious symbol be reviled because of him? For me, if I was a believer and followed my priest, I must wear a ring/locket with Swastika symbol :D. If I do it here in NZ, I will be an instant pariah. Isn't it nearly the same as "Deathly Hollows symbol" in Harry Potter? An ancient symbol claimed by an evil person. Why can't we reclaim it back rather than surrendering the symbol to his memory?

Btw, this is the last I will say on this subject. I am not a tactful person, and I may be stepping on toes here. But please understand that I am indoctrinated to think of Swastika as a sacred sign of auspicious omen not a reviled one. I do not spit but bow my head when I see it. I am sorry if that seems like decreasing the memory of holocaust.

I actually agree with you...FWIW. However, since that symbol was used by an evil man, its been tainted for pretty much ever...much like all that Roman imagery that was used. Now Rome is fascist thanks to him & Mussolini.

It is what it is basically.

Firseal
02-10-2012, 10:28 PM
Ric Romero says...The Holocaust was kinda a big deal.

Yeah, but so is a couple thousand years of history on the other hand, Davian. Saying the swastika is a horrible symbol is a denegration of several cultures and religions.

On the other hand, Davian has... something of a point, Durvasha. Not so much as he thinks, but something. To the American mind the swastika is an outright evil symbol. And realized that our melting pot culture may be broad - as broad as it gets, with our way of pulling in and making our own parts and parcels of other cultures, as we do with the parts and parcels of other peoples who join us - our own culture is about three hundred years old. The swastika mattered very little for the first five sixths of it, and then about the time mass media was tying us closer together than ever, it got to be the symbol of the most pure evil our culture has ever *directly* dealt with. Sure more terrible things have happened before and after, and several Americans have been involved secondhand or tangentically. But an entire generation got exposed to the second World War, and a lot closer than Americans - an isolationist nation, an introvert (if a capitalistic and ambitious one) on the world stage - generally get to that degree of reckless, bald hate.

Americans think of the swastika as one of the darkest, most vile of symbols because for one sixth of our history, it has been one of the few things we have agreed on with little quibble. India has had recorded history around 2500 - 4000 years. If the swastika had been a symbol of evil there for one sixth of that (417 - 666 years) you would be mystified that another part of the world wanted to reclaim it and wipe it's dark history away as well. Especially since amongst America's virtues, empathy towards other cultures tends to be a weaker one.

The symbol can be reclaimed, of course. Davian's wrong on that score. But it is unlikely that younger cultures who were part of the Allies in WWII (including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United States, etc) will let this grudge against it go completely for at least a couple more generations.

Khoram
02-10-2012, 10:44 PM
I remember when I first found out about the swastika's use prior to Hitler and Nazism. I was extremely surprised at the meaning behind the symbol, and the rich history it possessed. I was also surprised when I did find out about the swastika on the person of the Dalai Lama, one of the most peaceful people in the entire world (which is awesome, if I might add).

My past experiences with the swastika prior to this experience were ones of hate and single-mindedness. I never thought about where the symbol came from - I thought Hitler, or maybe Goebbels, came up with the design. It's simple, easy to create, and, to many in our generation today, and two generations before, strikes fear into our hearts because of the connotations it brings with it.

When I found out its history, however, it brought a whole new perspective to the symbol. I now see the swastika in two different lights - it all depends on the entire design of the symbol - the older swastika is just that, the swastika. That of the Nazis, however, is placed on a white circle upon a red backdrop. The only thing is that the old swastika can be flipped to resemble the Nazi swastika, but not vice versa.

Looking into the history of symbols, both good and bad, can be quite fascinating. The swastika is no exception.

I must admit, though, that even with my new-found knowledge (in comparison to what I knew before) I will always associate the swastika with the Nazis, primarily due to my area of study; it is what I see most days when studying the Second World War. Although I always have that second bit of information floating in the back of my head, and it doesn't strike as much fear as it could have, say, 4 or 5 years ago.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2012, 04:25 AM
Look, I am a reasonably well-educated, intelligent, adult American and I have NEVER BEFORE SEEN the "SS" symbol, in any way that has stuck with me.
That ignorance does explain why such a blatantly nazi-like slogan was used on the American concentration camp (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00443/news-graphics-2007-_443511a.jpg). Which, I'll remind you, was and is also guarded by US Marines. They do not know history, so now they are repeating it.

Firseal
02-11-2012, 08:23 AM
That ignorance does explain why such a blatantly nazi-like slogan was used on the American concentration camp (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00443/news-graphics-2007-_443511a.jpg). Which, I'll remind you, was and is also guarded by US Marines. They do not know history, so now they are repeating it.

Yes. Stupidity is usually our problem. Makes us almost as bad as those, usually in Europe though that one is starting to crop up a lot in Asia, who do know their history and repeat it with glee. Or Africa, who know their history and don't give a crap.

Welcome to the human race, the finish line in this particular instance being a history professor with a really big club that says, 'I told you so'.

Ivhon
02-11-2012, 09:10 AM
there is a difference though, ignorance of the lawe should be an excuse or you would be expected to know the law and wouldnt need a lawyer in court.

Sorry to hijack from the current theme of the thread, but CAB, you have said this twice in here and I don't think you have thought it through.

If ignorance of the law were an acceptable excuse no one would be convicted of anything because we would all plead ignorant and walk. Or at the very least set the prosecution up for having to prove a negative.

"Gee, officer, I didn't know the speed limit wasn't 75 through a school zone" - walk. EDIT (hamsters are hungry): And walk again every time you get a ticket on a new street because why would we ever bother to look at the speed limit signs when we can just plead ignorant.

"well, yeah, I know you aren't supposed to kill someone in cold blood, but I didn't know it was illegal to kill somebody when they provoke you by saying mean things about your mother" - walk.

And walk again for the father excuse and the brother excuse and the sister excuse because the law works on precedent and you will have to establish precedent with each individual for every permutation of every conceivable crime rather than society as a whole (which is difficult enough to establish precedent on as it is).

And this doesn't even touch the introduction of "I forgot" as a defense to re-establish ignorance...

Res_Ipsa
02-11-2012, 09:37 AM
Sorry to hijack from the current theme of the thread, but CAB, you have said this twice in here and I don't think you have thought it through.

If ignorance of the law were an acceptable excuse no one would be convicted of anything because we would all plead ignorant and walk. Or at the very least set the prosecution up for having to prove a negative.

"Gee, officer, I didn't know the speed limit wasn't 75 through a school zone" - walk. EDIT (hamsters are hungry): And walk again every time you get a ticket on a new street because why would we ever bother to look at the speed limit signs when we can just plead ignorant.

"well, yeah, I know you aren't supposed to kill someone in cold blood, but I didn't know it was illegal to kill somebody when they provoke you by saying mean things about your mother" - walk.

And walk again for the father excuse and the brother excuse and the sister excuse because the law works on precedent and you will have to establish precedent with each individual for every permutation of every conceivable crime rather than society as a whole (which is difficult enough to establish precedent on as it is).

And this doesn't even touch the introduction of "I forgot" as a defense to re-establish ignorance...

You are correct in most aspects. However, there are a few instances in the law where there is a pushback against such a brightline rule. In contract law for example, the old line of thinking was that you would be bound by a contract on the terms you agreed to no matter how onerous. The idea was that you could contract to your own benefit or detriment and courts would not relieve you of a bad deal. Today, there is a strong push to examine the bargaining power of the parties as well as contracts of adhesion called boilerplate. So if you are ignorant of the law, you can be relieved of it in some respects, and even then there is an equally strong push back to keep the law what it was for centuries.

In criminal law, and this is by no means an expertise, I would say your statement is mostly true save for a few specific instances where the defense provides an immunity. Sini could expound more easily on this.


Another legal phrase that is both deceptive and truthful is that "possession is 9/10 of the law".

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2012, 10:36 AM
I just thought of a problem with the "the letters come from the band KISS" defence. That problem being the fact that the medieval bigots who play such a big role in Afghanistan might not be all that more accepting of a bunch of strangely clad weirdos in heavy makeup than, say, parents generally were in the USA in the 1970s.
So the defense "the letters are based on the Kiss logo" would only work if a Marine can prove that he's never heard of the band before, in which case proving that's where he got the idea would be tricky.

confused at birth
02-11-2012, 12:49 PM
Sorry to hijack from the current theme of the thread, but CAB, you have said this twice in here and I don't think you have thought it through.

If ignorance of the law were an acceptable excuse no one would be convicted of anything because we would all plead ignorant and walk. Or at the very least set the prosecution up for having to prove a negative.

"Gee, officer, I didn't know the speed limit wasn't 75 through a school zone" - walk. EDIT (hamsters are hungry): And walk again every time you get a ticket on a new street because why would we ever bother to look at the speed limit signs when we can just plead ignorant.

"well, yeah, I know you aren't supposed to kill someone in cold blood, but I didn't know it was illegal to kill somebody when they provoke you by saying mean things about your mother" - walk.



This got you no where

If you have a drivers license you know about speed limits and they are posted on these nice signs so you know and have no excuse.

Unless you have the worlds worst parents or have lived alone in a forest your whole life you know that killing or stealing are not acceptable so you have no excuse.

Not knowing an obscure law that no one felt was worth explaining or even telling you it exists should be an excuse every time unless they can prove you would know the law.

Find your state on here and see if you have ever broken one of its stranger laws because you didnt know
http://www.dumblaws.com/

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2012, 01:12 PM
Not knowing an obscure law that no one felt was worth explaining or even telling you it exists should be an excuse every time unless they can prove you would know the law.
All right, and now for the next question: how many of those Marines would be totally oblivious to the fact that they were in a situation where they might offend people who then could go out and kill them (or other Americans, or others) with road side bombs?

You may not be aware of it, but there has been trouble before because someone or did said something that stirred up anger in Afghanistan. The Marines should be aware of that, though. The official policy is not to do that kind of thing unless it is necessary. This was not necessary. Those Marines could have gone to their superiors and asked "are we allowed to pose sporting Nazi paraphernalia", and if they had done that, then they would probably have been told "no, better not". Instead, they chose to take full responsibility, and that's what they now get for it.

Ivhon
02-11-2012, 03:33 PM
This got you no where

If you have a drivers license you know about speed limits and they are posted on these nice signs so you know and have no excuse.

Unless you have the worlds worst parents or have lived alone in a forest your whole life you know that killing or stealing are not acceptable so you have no excuse.

Not knowing an obscure law that no one felt was worth explaining or even telling you it exists should be an excuse every time unless they can prove you would know the law.

Find your state on here and see if you have ever broken one of its stranger laws because you didnt know
http://www.dumblaws.com/

@ Res: points taken

@ CAB: Your quoted stance is "ignorance of the law should be an excuse." Now you backtrack to say in essence "sometimes it should, sometimes it shouldn't" i.e. to introduce a subjective measure of what should be known in order to use an ignorance defense. For example, one should know better from context and upbringing that you can't kill anybody under any circumstances (oh...but wait...there ARE circumstances in which you can kill someone...and some that mitigate the act).

However, because YOU don't know what the SS symbol stands for there is room to plead ignorance. I, on the other hand, have known what that symbol means and stands for since I knew what the nazi swastika stood for and I knew it at an early age - pre-ten. I can't think of anyone I know that would not know immediately what that stands for. Therefore, to me, pleading ignorance on the subject of the OP is just as dodgy as pleading ignorance of posted traffic laws (I do not mean to sound condescending with this piece of knowledge - I'm quite sure there are things that you take for granted as core knowledge of which I am completely ignorant).

How do we resolve this in a court of law? Not so easy. Subjectivity and the law do not mix well together.

Furthermore, your posts seemed rather righteously indignant that ignorance should be an excuse - you did not make any room for exceptions. Consequently, I thought it worthwhile to point out that having ignorance as an excuse is - more often than not - a really bad idea.

Not meaning to pick a fight and sorry if I came off as combative in either post.

confused at birth
02-11-2012, 04:45 PM
CAB: Your quoted stance is "ignorance of the law should be an excuse." Now you backtrack to say in essence "sometimes it should, sometimes it shouldn't" i.e. to introduce a subjective measure of what should be known in order to use an ignorance defense.

I didnt think I was actually backtracking

I think that the rules that are important should always be explained even if they are stupid but if no one ever bothers to tell you a rule and it isnt blatantly obvious people shouldnt get in trouble for not knowing and then breaking it.

When you go to a new environment the basic of its rights and wrongs are normally explained like company policies or health and safety issues

Most militaries require you to learn the regulations during training and officers should get further education so they know how to do their jobs when they are required to discipline troops.


If you have a drivers license you know about speed limits and they are posted on these nice signs so you know and have no excuse.

Unless you have the worlds worst parents or have lived alone in a forest your whole life you know that killing or stealing are not acceptable so you have no excuse.


I think these are all the same, you should know these rules as they are given to you and when you break them you have no excuse but until we get Goa'uld like genetic memory I dont think people should be punished for not knowing the rules that people dont feel are important enough to ever bother telling you until you break them.

I dont probably dont break the law very often I dont know very many laws so I couldnt tell you.

I use a seatbelt because I have seen what can happen if you dont, I dont steal or murder because I think it is wrong to do so not because these things are illegal but I would have no excuse if I break laws that say you cannot do these things as I was told stealing is bad as a child and there are signs telling people to use seatbelts.


Not meaning to pick a fight and sorry if I came off as combative in either post.

Maybe a little in the first but I didnt mind :p

Ishara
02-13-2012, 01:08 PM
I feel as if we're missing an important aspect of this issue here. This isn't a bunch of everyday people clustered around an SS-like flag. This is a bunch of clearly identified (i.e. wearing a uniform) individuals who represent an entire nation on the international military stage clustered around an SS-like flag.

Whether they knew or not stands to be proven, but I would argue that regardless of that, the sanctions that should be slapped down them should be harsher than those of regular people (i.e. nothing) or regular soldiers (maybe something more serious), because these are elite representatives of the US Military. They ought to be held to a higher standard of behaviour, and our expectations should be higher.

That this sort of display is being defended while it makes the US Miltary look like supporters of the SS, by association if nothing else, is killing me. These guys represent not just themselves in this photo, but also the Marines, the Armed Forces and the entire US Military machine. How could they not?

What difference does their intent make? The damage is done. That photo is everywhere, for everyone to see.

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2012, 03:56 AM
I feel as if we're missing an important aspect of this issue here. This isn't a bunch of everyday people clustered around an SS-like flag. This is a bunch of clearly identified (i.e. wearing a uniform) individuals who represent an entire nation on the international military stage clustered around an SS-like flag.
Nitpick addition: it is an elite (as you point out) unit of your army, which is very regularly accused of murdering civilians in that specific country, just as the SS was an elite unit famous amongst other things for atrocities.

Further nitpick, now aimed at those who try the "they may not have known" approach: if you type in "SS" in Wikipedia, then you get on the top right a picture of the logo, which does bear an uncanny resemblance to the one these military geniuses uses.

Zombie Sammael
02-14-2012, 05:16 AM
I didnt think I was actually backtracking

I think that the rules that are important should always be explained even if they are stupid but if no one ever bothers to tell you a rule and it isnt blatantly obvious people shouldnt get in trouble for not knowing and then breaking it.







I think these are all the same, you should know these rules as they are given to you and when you break them you have no excuse but until we get Goa'uld like genetic memory I dont think people should be punished for not knowing the rules that people dont feel are important enough to ever bother telling you until you break them.

I dont probably dont break the law very often I dont know very many laws so I couldnt tell you.

I use a seatbelt because I have seen what can happen if you dont, I dont steal or murder because I think it is wrong to do so not because these things are illegal but I would have no excuse if I break laws that say you cannot do these things as I was told stealing is bad as a child and there are signs telling people to use seatbelts.




Maybe a little in the first but I didnt mind :p

Other than offences of strict liability, ignorance of the law often effectively is an excuse, because an important element of the crime is the intention to commit it; this is how "attempted murder" is still a crime, for instance. If, for example, you are arraigned for wearing a green shirt on a Friday, if you can prove that you didn't mean to wear a green shirt, or didn't know it was a Friday, or were blue/green colourblind, or otherwise had no intention to break the law, you will be fine. This is what's known as the mens rea (bad latin) and is contrasted with the actus reus (bad latin) meaning the actual criminal act.

Some offences, of course, such as speeding in the UK, are of strict liability, meaning that the mental element isn't taken into account, only whether the crime has been committed or not. But generally, you have to mean it to commit a crime.

Isabel
02-14-2012, 09:03 AM
I feel as if we're missing an important aspect of this issue here. This isn't a bunch of everyday people clustered around an SS-like flag. This is a bunch of clearly identified (i.e. wearing a uniform) individuals who represent an entire nation on the international military stage clustered around an SS-like flag.

Whether they knew or not stands to be proven, but I would argue that regardless of that, the sanctions that should be slapped down them should be harsher than those of regular people (i.e. nothing) or regular soldiers (maybe something more serious), because these are elite representatives of the US Military. They ought to be held to a higher standard of behaviour, and our expectations should be higher.

That this sort of display is being defended while it makes the US Miltary look like supporters of the SS, by association if nothing else, is killing me. These guys represent not just themselves in this photo, but also the Marines, the Armed Forces and the entire US Military machine. How could they not?

What difference does their intent make? The damage is done. That photo is everywhere, for everyone to see.

I totally agree with you :)