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tanaww
08-15-2008, 09:37 AM
District Allows Teachers to Pack Guns (http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/ci_10213806)

Gilshalos Sedai
08-15-2008, 09:42 AM
I guaren-damn-tee discipline in that school will be impeccable.

irerancincpkc
08-15-2008, 09:44 AM
I was hoping that was a joke...

tanaww
08-15-2008, 09:46 AM
I guaren-damn-tee discipline in that school will be impeccable.

And I will Guaran-damn-tee that I'd be homeschooling my kids if I lived there. Mostly because not all teachers are good teachers or smart teachers and when you combine that with the valid Texas defense of "I reckon some folks just need killin'" it's a recipe for disaster.

tanaww
08-15-2008, 09:46 AM
I was hoping that was a joke...

Because I'm known for jokes, spammer?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-15-2008, 09:49 AM
a) That's a myth.

b) It sounds like the teachers have to jump through so many hoops (Expensive ones at that), that I doubt many of them will take advantage.

tanaww
08-15-2008, 09:51 AM
a) That's a myth.

b) It sounds like the teachers have to jump through so many hoops (Expensive ones at that), that I doubt many of them will take advantage.


You mean I can't use the "Some folks just need kiillin' defense?"
Shit. How much is Lizard's retainer? I may need him after registration this morning.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-15-2008, 09:58 AM
The Lizard works for couch space, 100K, and unlimited melty cheese.

irerancincpkc
08-15-2008, 10:03 AM
Because I'm known for jokes, spammer?
Just looking at your avatar makes me laugh. :D

tanaww
08-15-2008, 10:15 AM
Just looking at your avatar makes me laugh. :D

Point taken.

Cary Sedai
08-15-2008, 11:56 AM
This makes my stomach sort of roll and twist.

Frenzy
08-15-2008, 11:56 AM
i'd be more worried if this were in Kansas, where they're not allowed to teach stuff like the theory of evolution or the American Revolution or other patent nonsense like that.

Davian93
08-15-2008, 12:18 PM
This makes my stomach sort of roll and twist.

Finally the gen ed teachers will be able to shoot back!!!:D

Cary Sedai
08-15-2008, 01:54 PM
Finally the gen ed teachers will be able to shoot back!!!:D

~pinches Dav~ :p

My initial reaction is .... uh... this doesn't sound good. I'd have to weigh all the pros and cons, do some research to make a better opinion. But still it will be colored with apprehension, no matter what.

Edit: Had to spell weigh the right way... Thanks, Sare :)

Edit again: more spelling errors. Thanks, Terez :)

Davian93
08-15-2008, 02:20 PM
Rational First Response: Anything that introduces firearms into a school environment is not a good thing...

Birgitte
08-15-2008, 03:22 PM
Seconded, Dav.

Sinistrum
08-15-2008, 03:44 PM
I dunno, I kind of like it. Now the students aren't the only ones who can tell the mexican judu joke. :D

Cary Sedai
08-15-2008, 10:49 PM
judo know if I have a knife

judo know if i have a gun

judo know if 10 of my cousins are around the corner....

tanaww
08-16-2008, 09:01 AM
That is the worst joke ever.

~shakes head~

Sinistrum
08-16-2008, 11:17 AM
That is the worst joke ever.

~shakes head~

I agree. Too bad I heard it about a million times from some of my more thuggish classmates while I was still in public school.

Cary Sedai
08-16-2008, 12:03 PM
Someone had to say it :p I think I learned it in 4th grade.

Sarevok
08-16-2008, 12:20 PM
*wonders what this joke is about*

Cary Sedai
08-16-2008, 12:33 PM
*wonders what this joke is about*

~Sare wonders no longer~

I explained it to him :p

Frenzy
08-16-2008, 03:06 PM
now explain the nacho cheese joke to him.

tanaww
08-16-2008, 05:36 PM
I challenge my dear TL'ers to think up all the really bad jokes and translate them for the Dutchie :)

~hugs Sarevok~ It won't hurt. I promise :)

Ishara
08-18-2008, 08:15 AM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/voting_machines.png Same principle applies, IMO.

Birgitte
08-18-2008, 05:55 PM
hehehe, Ishara... I agree. And I love xkcd.

Matoyak
08-18-2008, 08:38 PM
Guns should not be allowed near schools, unless it is a police officer carrying. This teachers having guns thing is f*ckin' ridiculous.

Bryan Blaire
08-19-2008, 07:03 PM
In some places, the teachers have to also act as the police Matoyak. It's not as crazy as you think.

Matoyak
08-20-2008, 01:09 AM
In some places, the teachers have to also act as the police Matoyak. It's not as crazy as you think.
If they've got a permit to carry guns, are trained in the proper use of said gun, and have training on what to do in hostile situations, etc., THEN it's not crazy. Oh wait, that's a police officer.

If they ain't trained to do the job, they shouldn't be doing it.

The Immortal One
08-20-2008, 02:55 AM
If they've got a permit to carry guns, are trained in the proper use of said gun, and have training on what to do in hostile situations, etc., THEN it's not crazy.

I agree, even if you did mean it as sarcasm.

If they are fully trained in crisis situations and have the proper permits....

I mean, many schools have trained nurses with access to certain drugs which you probably wouldn't want in a school for any other reason; why not have a trained security officer?

Although I have to admit it would probably be better if the gun was kept in a locked safe somewhere where only the trained 'security officer/senior teacher' has access until such a situation occurs. The idea of actually carrying a gun in the classroom is a bit wierd.

tanaww
08-20-2008, 08:57 AM
If they are fully trained in crisis situations and have the proper permits....

Here's my problem. It has been my experience that teachers, particularly at the secondary level are some of the dumbest people I know. Don't lambaste me! There are some good teachers but there are also a whole lot of terrible ones. (Thanks No Child Left Behind) Also, many of these teachers feel the need to create a power-based relationship with students. Rather than build respect through enforced standards and approachability they use positional authority expecting respect because they are the teacher and the student is, well, not. No wonder students hate them. Think back, you know teachers like this. Probably more than one or two. They'll be the first to apply for the Conceal & Carry permit. These types of folks, I don't want with a C & C permit in my children's classroom.

I actually sat in Graduate Assistant Orientation the other day and actually heard a couple of guys ask whether they could fight back if a student got aggressive. The speaker was somewhat incredulous. "You mean throw a punch?"

And we all know that higher level academics are the worst kind when it comes to common sense. The typical professor would find him or herself standing outside discussing Dr. So-and-so's research of Einstein's theory or extension of Maslow's work and wondering why his/ her shirt is getting wet. Uh, Professor? It's raining. Maybe you should go inside? RS has one professor (he loves him because of his Con Law knowledge) but he's so resistant to change that he does not use e-mail or Blackboard. :confused: I don't want those folks with guns either. (I, otoh, break the mold for academics plus I have a brown belt and am not afraid to use it.)

I think a better solution is mandatory self defense training with a thorough understanding of non-verbal communication and evasive tactics. And empowering educators to remove problem students from mainstream classrooms.

I mean, many schools have trained nurses with access to certain drugs which you probably wouldn't want in a school for any other reason; why not have a trained security officer? I do believe that RN's are not authorized to diagnose - merely assess and the only drugs they can give without a Doctor's order are readily available over the counter unless there is already a prescription and the proper paperwork has been filed with the school. Most won't even give a tylenol without calling a parent. Second, we're not talking trained security. Even schools in po-dunk Wisconsin have those. We're talking idiot, redneck teachers with Concealed Weapons.

"Okay staff, tomorrow is take your glock to school day so uh, go ahead and bring your glock if you've got one." - Principal Lumberg

Davian93
08-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Not to bash any teachers here (there are good ones out there...I even had a few).

Alot of teachers teach because they can't or don't want to do anything else. My sister-in-law is a perfect example of this phenomenon. She stayed in college till she was 28 (got a masters in education and it only took her 10 years...way to go!). She lived at home with her mom until she married my brother. She teaches because she gets every holiday and all summer off and because the state is helping pay her student loans (which she racked up by refusing to leave college) back. She's a complete moron (trust me I've tried many times to have a legit conversation with her). I also have 2 cousins that teach in North Carolina because NC will pay 100% of your tuition to college if you agree to teach for 5 years...or it may be 8 years at a public school. Both are complete idiots that you would never want to even babysit your kids let alone teach them something constructive. Both also stayed in school as long as they could to prevent having to deal with the real world in any form or fashion. To this day their father still pays for their cars and insurance. Yet now they teach children

The saying "Those who can't do, teach" has a lot of truth behind it.

That said there are good teachers out there...just very few.

tanaww
08-20-2008, 10:02 AM
Not to bash any teachers here (there are good ones out there...I even had a few).

Alot of teachers teach because they can't or don't want to do anything else. My sister-in-law is a perfect example of this phenomenon. She stayed in college till she was 28 (got a masters in education and it only took her 10 years...way to go!). She lived at home with her mom until she married my brother. She teaches because she gets every holiday and all summer off and because the state is helping pay her student loans (which she racked up by refusing to leave college) back. She's a complete moron (trust me I've tried many times to have a legit conversation with her). I also have 2 cousins that teach in North Carolina because NC will pay 100% of your tuition to college if you agree to teach for 5 years...or it may be 8 years at a public school. Both are complete idiots that you would never want to even babysit your kids let alone teach them something constructive. Both also stayed in school as long as they could to prevent having to deal with the real world in any form or fashion. To this day their father still pays for their cars and insurance. Yet now they teach children

The saying "Those who can't do, teach" has a lot of truth behind it.

That said there are good teachers out there...just very few.

My point exactly. There are a few good teachers, but very damn few. The good ones get fed up with the bad ones and No Child Left Untested and leave the profession.

I have a cousin (well, my father's cousin) who was a band director. He left teaching to work in the financial services industry where he makes a ton more money and doesn't have to deal with lazy students or helicopter parents.

Cary Sedai
08-20-2008, 12:38 PM
Also, many of these teachers feel the need to create a power-based relationship with students. Rather than build respect through enforced standards and approachability they use positional authority expecting respect because they are the teacher and the student is, well, not.

I remember a whole lot more of those types, than the good ones. I think, that and legislation and parents not being responsible for thier children is the crux of the problems with our schools.

I can't see how teachers carrying guns could ever fix any of those problems, only exacerbate the situation.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-20-2008, 02:26 PM
http://punditkitchen.com/2008/08/20/political-pictures-texas-back-to-school-sale-guns/

Matoyak
08-21-2008, 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matoyak
If they've got a permit to carry guns, are trained in the proper use of said gun, and have training on what to do in hostile situations, etc., THEN it's not crazy.


I agree, even if you did mean it as sarcasm. I sorta was being sarcastic...If you boil down what I was basically saying, was that that if the teacher was a trained security officer, then yeah, they should be bale to carry a gun.

The Immortal One
08-21-2008, 03:11 AM
Well, after thinking it over (and reading your responses), I have to admit that MOST teachers wouldn't, in my opinion, be suitable; but...

With the proper training, the proper education, the permits, and some sort of psychological testing like police usually have to have; I don't see why they can't be given a title like 'Senior Security Teacher' or something and have access to (if not actually carry in the classroom) a gun if the situation requires it. Especially when the nearest Police Station is over 30 minutes drive away like in that article.

And, anyway, were you really surprised to see a law like this passed in Texas (no offense meant to anybody who lives there!)???

Davian93
08-21-2008, 08:04 AM
It'd be cheaper and more effective to simply have a qualified and certified armed guard on the premises.

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 11:35 AM
It'd be cheaper and more effective to simply have a qualified and certified armed guard on the premises.

Have you seen your average security guard? The only thing I'd trust them to do is guard the pastery shop.

Davian93
08-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Have you seen your average security guard? The only thing I'd trust them to do is guard the pastery shop.

Armed security guards go through some fairly extensive training especially compared to unarmed guards. Most armed security guards have either a law enforcement or military background anyway.

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 11:40 AM
Most armed security guards have either a law enforcement

Have you seen you're average cop? :p

Davian93
08-21-2008, 11:41 AM
A fair point...still its better than some gungho history teacher packing heat.

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 11:57 AM
I heard last night on a news radio station, just before bed, that Gov. Rick Perry is endorsing this. :(

I feel this is a HUGE mistake, HUGE!

Lets say that this catches on, all teachers are required to carry guns. School shootings (after a few incidents, which will be messy, but justified somehow that the loss of life was less since the teacher(s) were armed) actually stop. Our children (my future ones) will be taught by people carrying guns! Guns! The teacher has a gun! (I'm sorry, it sounds like alarm bells in my head every single time I think about it.)

Teachers like Tana described, which we all know exist and have run into, would have guns. A tool that would intenisfy thier already poor teacher/student relationship building skills. Not only would they have "I'm a teacher, your a student, respect me" syndrome, they would have a gun to back that up.

No not all teachers would be like that, but one is too many. We already know there are plenty out there.

Most schools don't spank anymore, right? This is a lot bigger than a spanking. It's fear and intimidation, on a level much higher than what spanking causes. There needs to be understanding between the teachers and students, not a forced respect. Guns will never accomplish that.

Too bad I'm moving in a few months, I wont be able to vote against Rick Perry, but you better believe I would for him edorsing this.

Davian93
08-21-2008, 12:05 PM
How long till a teacher pistol whips a student and calls it self-defense?

tanaww
08-21-2008, 12:13 PM
Most schools don't spank anymore, right?

Unfortunately not. Much to the dismay of Professor Uno and myself. We think that you should be able to paddle unruly undergrads and TA's. Unless, of course I am the TA. Then, if you're cute, we could talk.

I blame Cary Sedai for this post.

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 12:18 PM
It's fear and intimidation, on a level much higher than what spanking causes. There needs to be understanding between the teachers and students, not a forced respect.

And strangely enough, I'm not really bothered by your average public school student being intimidated into behaving in class.

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:20 PM
I blame Cary Sedai for this post.

~takes full responsibility~ :D

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:28 PM
And strangely enough, I'm not really bothered by your average public school student being intimidated into behaving in class.


Yeah, unfortuneately a lot of people aren't. I don't have the answers, and I dont' think there IS a quick fix. However, intimidating children, teaches them that you can control others by intimidation. Yes, intimidation works, I just dont think it's the best choice. Also, at some point those who are constantly intimidated, rebel.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:31 PM
Welcome to the teen years.

tanaww
08-21-2008, 12:32 PM
And strangely enough, I'm not really bothered by your average public school student being intimidated into behaving in class.

But if that is the only motivator you're capable of, you've got no business teaching.

Davian93
08-21-2008, 12:33 PM
But if that is the only motivator you're capable of, you've got no business teaching.

Most teachers don't.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:34 PM
No, but it's the first one teachers are taught to use. And often no one is taught any others.


I found bribery worked.

tanaww
08-21-2008, 12:37 PM
No, but it's the first one teachers are taught to use. And often no one is taught any others.


I found bribery worked.

You had third graders, not middle schoolers. They're tougher to bribe ;)

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:43 PM
That's what you think. An inner city third grader could make a Suburban 8th grader cry.

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:48 PM
I want to teach, and it scares the bejeesus out of me! It's a huge responsibility. I still want to teach, though.

I want to be one of the good ones. I dont' want to control my students. I want to achieve a level of understanding beneficial to the students and myself. Where I can teach and they can learn, and vice versa.

I've never been under the impression that children were objects or possessions. Or needed to be controlled. Children should be nurtured, taught skills for making choices, and encouraged to think for themselves.

I know, that's a bit altruistic. I understand it will be a challenge, that's what scares the bejeesus out of me!

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 12:50 PM
I want to be one of the good ones. I dont' want to control my students. I want to achieve a level of understanding beneficial to the students and myself. Where I can teach and they can learn, and vice versa.

That sounds like Nirvana. ;)


FYI: My sister teaches 8th grade math. Even she's admitted she'd have quit my school.

Matoyak
08-21-2008, 12:59 PM
In a semi-related matter, my English teacher used to be a cop. There were all kinds of rumors of her just being undercover and not really a teacher.

(For the record, she's a little-bitty petite woman, she doesn't look like a cop or anything like that) One time at a football game one of the people from the other school (our football rivals or whatever) decided to start streaking during our marching band performance. My English teacher sprinted out of the stands, and took the guy down (like, flying tackle, face-plant-in-the-mud arms in the handcuff position tackle). The security guards arrived 5 minutes later. It was probably one of the funniest things that happened that school year.

The kid was supposedly sent to AEP for a few weeks, given OCS for a month, and had to do community service. That's what their school told our school, at least. This summer I learned from some kids that went to the kids school that he was only given 2 days of OCS and nothing else. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif BOO!

Lol, Cary...good luck on that. You're either going to be taken advantage of, (especially if you teach high school...or worse, junior high) or you're going to change your mind eventually. Depending on what subject and grade level you teach of course. My mom was able to establish a similar structure to what you want for her high school art classes...but that's art, and she was able to bend rules from having taught at the school for a while. During the time that they would be working on their own, without instruction she would put on music (student-suggested [had to be censored, of course]) (I remember going in one time to hear AC/DC playing, lol) As long as they did their work fully and without complaint, and payed attention when she taught, they got along fine. Course, she had to deal with the school board, the principle, etc all the time about "irregular teaching methods". It's funny, because once she left that school, their art program went waaaay downhill...even with an "orthodox" teacher. ~rolls eyes~

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:00 PM
That sounds like Nirvana. ;)

Are you referring to the band or, a place or state characterized by freedom from or oblivion to pain, worry, and the external world.

If you are referring to the band, I've missed the joke. If you are referring to the second...nothing like that exisits. I might be altruistic, but I'm a realist, too. But, just becuase somethings not attainable, doesn't mean you can't strive for it anyhow.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:18 PM
The second and I know.

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 01:23 PM
Yeah, unfortuneately a lot of people aren't. I don't have the answers, and I dont' think there IS a quick fix. However, intimidating children, teaches them that you can control others by intimidation. Yes, intimidation works, I just dont think it's the best choice. Also, at some point those who are constantly intimidated, rebel.

I don't see it as unfortunate. I see it as dealing with the practical realities of what children really are: Barbarians. And to get people like that to act civilized in a class room setting, respect is nice and preferable but extremely rare. Fear gets the job done just as well, is a lot easier to implement, and what most of those kids understand already anyways. Given most public school kid's average home life, they've already learned the lesson that intimidation gets you want you want in life from other sources, like say their parents. Most kids in public school don't give a shit about school, their teachers, or their fellow classmates. They aren't there to learn so they need to be controlled so that the few rare of instances of kids actually wanting to learn aren't completely ignored.

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:31 PM
and by taking the easy way, we perpetuate the cycle.

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 01:32 PM
And by clinging to ideals that aren't practical we exacerbate it.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:33 PM
All right you two! Do I have to separate you?? Behave or I'll turn this car around!

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:36 PM
He started it! :p

Sinistrum
08-21-2008, 01:37 PM
Did not! And she won't stop touching me! :p I have to go the bathroom! Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-21-2008, 01:46 PM
And she won't stop touching me!


Um, Cary... is there something you'd like to share with the class?

tanaww
08-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Did not! And she won't stop touching me! :p I have to go the bathroom! Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

That's it! Only Virgin Cuba Libres for you! You don't behave, you don't get any rum.

Cary Sedai
08-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Um, Cary... is there something you'd like to share with the class?


I'm not touching him, he's touching me! I'll behave if he does... (hehehe, not likely!)

Bryan Blaire
08-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Besides, actually, if the statistics I heard were correct, there were still almost a quarter million students given corporal punishment between 2006 and 2008. The largest percentage of them (something like 30-35%) were black girls under the age of 16.