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Abbaaddon
02-16-2012, 12:29 PM
My question here is how does the ta'veren effect works ? Does it go stronger as the times passez ?

Let me precise a little bit. In tGS, evil Rand told Cadsuane that maybe he could influence the pattern enough to make her heart stop. It sounded as his evil-madness, but the event in the White Tower, with Jesus-Rand made me believe that he could've broken the shield smowhat thanks to his ta'veren ability.
Then, what could he do if he had the slightest influence on it ? And, more important IMO, if the effect strenghtens with the time, will the group lead by Egwene to try to convince Rand not to break the Seals won't be able to say anything if Perrin, Mat and Rand stand together. Min's viewings tend to say that they are stronger when together, and as they are three powerful Ta'veren, the coul move a hell lot in the pattern.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why they have not been stuck together for long in the previous books.

I hope I was clear enough for you to see where I'm going, if not, feel free to ask =)

eht slat meit
02-16-2012, 12:39 PM
Then, what could he do if he had the slightest influence on it ? And, more important IMO, if the effect strenghtens with the time, will the group lead by Egwene to try to convince Rand not to break the Seals won't be able to say anything if Perrin, Mat and Rand stand together. Min's viewings tend to say that they are stronger when together, and as they are three powerful Ta'veren, the coul move a hell lot in the pattern.


I'm inclined to believe that the KC has the answer to this one, that this is part of his pre-VoG madness taking over.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

The fated duration of lives is the province of the Pattern, that which is spun out, and ta'veren shapes that Pattern. If he's in control of his ta'veren nature, which I don't believe, that makes him the next best thing to the Creator.

So, while he might be able to simply incinerate Cadsuane where she stands, that's a far cry from making the Pattern do it for him.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2012, 01:01 PM
I think that it is quite possible that he could have killed Cadsuane in such a way. I also think that there would have been some unanticipated consequences to it.
Look at his "I am ta'veren" spree in aCoS. In a short time, he got both the Sea Folk and the Cairhienin and Tairen rebels to follow him. He also got Fain to stick a knife into his side.

So he could probably make the Pattern do what he wanted. What else it would do as a reaction is anyone's guess, though.

Abbaaddon
02-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Well, how do you explain what happened in the Tower ? He seemed rather confident with breaking the seals easily if need be. And I believe the effect is emphasized when Mat and Perrin are with him.

eht slat meit
02-16-2012, 01:09 PM
Well, how do you explain what happened in the Tower ? He seemed rather confident with breaking the seals easily if need be. And I believe the effect is emphasized when Mat and Perrin are with him.

I don't see letting that ta'veren effect work for him as being a form of control. In gaming terms, it's a passive effect that operates under its own set of rules. If the ta'veren effect is a product of the Pattern, maintaining a certain balance, then it can do wonders for him simply by moving himself somewhere that it can work for him.

Ta'veren can't do anything for him from the Seafolk unless he actually spends some time interacting with them and letting it work, because there is a radius.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2012, 01:11 PM
I think that he will achieve what he sets out to do. I also think there will be some rather big and probably startling side effects.

But based on what we've read, I do not think that breaking the Seals requires any kind of ta'veren power. All it would take is dropping them on your toes, or somewhere else.

In the Tower, I think that Rand could have broken free, if that had been necessary. But he might have left a couple of hundred stilled AS behind, which would have been a bit of a public relations disaster.

Zombie Sammael
02-16-2012, 01:14 PM
There's no such thing as ta'veren. Silly backwards Oathbreakers...

Abbaaddon
02-16-2012, 01:15 PM
My bad, I meant the shields. Sorry, I am angry against myself for this mistake.

WinespringBrother
02-16-2012, 01:55 PM
Ta'veren are control devices for the Wheel to keep the Pattern from varying too greatly in its weavings from turning to turning. Presumably, stronger Ta'veren are needed when the variations in the weavings threaten to be too great.

Great Hunt CHAPTER: 44 - Five Will Ride Forth
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," Verin said placidly. "With ta'veren, what happens is what was meant to happen. It may be the Pattern demanded these extra days. The Pattern puts everything in its place precisely, and when we try to alter it, especially if ta'veren are involved, the weaving changes to put us back into the Pattern as we were meant to be." There was an uneasy silence that she did not seem to notice; she sketched on idly with the stick. "Now, however, I think perhaps we should make plans. The Pattern has brought us to Falme at last. The Horn of Valere has been taken to Falme."

Lupusdeusest
02-16-2012, 04:47 PM
I believe with the human things - stopping hearts and breaking shields - he would be able to do so, but not by manipulating threads or anything. I'm thinking more on a suggestion-going-on-compulsion thread.
With things without sentience, things that cannot be convince that they should stop their heart or that their flows are meaningless...
It's something I have never actually thought about before; I was startled to find I believed the above.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 04:58 PM
With things without sentience, things that cannot be convince that they should stop their heart or that their flows are meaningless...
Belief and order give strength (or weakness, as the case may be).

From AGS 33:
“Stop,” Rand said softly. “Do you believe that I can kill you?”
The boy fell silent and—though Nynaeve wouldn’t have thought it possible—his blue eyes opened wider.
“Do you believe that if I simply said the word,” Rand continued in his eerie, quiet voice, “your heart would stop beating? I am the Dragon Reborn. Do you believe that I can take your life, or your soul itself, if I so much as will it to happen?”

Aulis Vaara
02-16-2012, 05:12 PM
I think there's a big difference between the Cadsuane incident and the one in the tower. The bit with Cadsuane was mostly based on arrogance, and the one in the tower shows us why Rand believed it would happen.

If Cadsuane did actually get in Rand's way to effectively fight the last battle, she would actually be taken care off by the pattern. That is the reason why Rand was so confident in the tower and why the Aes Sedai could never hope to hold him. If they did that, they would hold him against the necessities of the pattern. A situation that would be as quickly rectified as the false dragon who was still out there when Rand revealed himself in Falme.

Rand was just too full of himself before then, though he was still right at the core, the pattern would get him what he needed (and he needed Cadsuane).

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2012, 05:31 AM
If Cadsuane did actually get in Rand's way to effectively fight the last battle, she would actually be taken care off by the pattern. That is the reason why Rand was so confident in the tower and why the Aes Sedai could never hope to hold him. If they did that, they would hold him against the necessities of the pattern. A situation that would be as quickly rectified as the false dragon who was still out there when Rand revealed himself in Falme.
I don't think so, actually. Rand is not invulnerable, he could conceivably be killed.
Mesaana was there, at the time, and she might have managed to balefire him. Or a Gray Man could have used everyone's focus on Rand, and slipped a knife into his back.

He has greater protection than others, but also greater threats aiming for his throat.

professorskar
02-21-2012, 02:38 AM
There's definitely some weird things going on with Rand in the last couple of books. When I first read TGS and got to that Cadsuane scene, I thought Rand's new found belief that he could manipulate the Pattern itself came from his experience channeling the True Power. I figured Rand didn't know what happened with the Semi incident, and assumed that the new source of power he had was him influencing the Wheel itself.

Another interesting scene that I feel might be related to this post has to do with Rand's meeting with Tuon.

TGS, Chapter 35, A Halo of Blackness:

Al'Thor placed his hand on the table, palm down. He leaned forward, trapping Tuon's eyes with his own. Who could look away from those intense gray eyes, like steel? "None of this matters. Mat doesn't matter. Our similarities and our differences do not matter. All that matters is need. And I need you."

And later, in the same chapter:

"You must call off your attacks," he said, nearly a whisper. "You must sign a treaty with me. These are not requests. They are my will."

It certainly appears to me that Rand is being more than just emphatic here. Almost as if he's trying to impose his demands on Tuon through sheer force of will. A Jedi Sedai mind trick, I guess.

Also, Tuon's POV during this scene appears eerily close to Compulsion. I know BS said she resisted due to sheer force of will, but this is the first time I think we've ever seen someone actually struggle against a ta'veren effect. Most of the time people just spill their guts and are surprised that they even spoke.

Another thing to note is Mat. I know there's a lot of discussion over his luck, and where it originates from, but it's another thing that seems to be growing. In KoD we see Mat lose a few dice games in the "hell" he takes Tuon to because it will benefit him, and in TGS in Hinderstrap he actually appears to control the dice to make himself lose. Not to mention the luck affects him to the extent that he wins when someone else tosses the dice. This definitely seems to be a stronger or at least different affect of his luck than we've seen earlier. Not saying it's related to what we see happen with Rand, just pointing it out as a parallel oddity.

eht slat meit
02-21-2012, 03:31 AM
It certainly appears to me that Rand is being more than just emphatic here. Almost as if he's trying to impose his demands on Tuon through sheer force of will. A Jedi Sedai mind trick, I guess.

Trying to force her to join his cause by using his ta'veren nature. As the KC warned, he who thought he spun the Wheel of Time, learned the truth too late. He failed because he doesn't have that power, and in doing so alienated the last person he needed in order to win and survive at TG.

The Wheel, in its infinite wisdom, added corrective mechanism #Mat as a fix for the expected failure.

That's how I see it. Probably a theory in there somewhere.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2012, 05:05 AM
Also, Tuon's POV during this scene appears eerily close to Compulsion. I know BS said she resisted due to sheer force of will, but this is the first time I think we've ever seen someone actually struggle against a ta'veren effect. Most of the time people just spill their guts and are surprised that they even spoke.
It isn't the first time it happened:
He leaned forward intently. "I know she’s with Aes Sedai. You told me those Aes Sedai support me, or might. Are they afraid of me? I will take oath to stay away from them, if they are. Egwene, I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne. She has claim to both; Cairhien will accept her as quickly as Andor does. I need her, Egwene."
Egwene opened her mouth – and realized that she was about to tell him all she knew about Salidar. Barely in time she clamped her teeth shut so hard her jaws ached, and opened herself to saidar. The sweet feel of life, so strong it overwhelmed everything else, seemed to help; slowly the urge to talk began to ebb.

professorskar
02-21-2012, 06:25 PM
Good catch, Gonzo!

Terez
02-21-2012, 06:34 PM
It isn't the first time it happened:
Except that Egwene had to use the Power in that case.

eht slat meit
02-21-2012, 09:31 PM
Except that Egwene had to use the Power in that case.

True, but the difference is that unlike any other Aes Sedai, she was able to make that effort and use the OP to break his influence. Does that stem from in part from having the willpower to make the effort, or could any sister defeat Rand's ta'veren nature simply by opening themselves to the source?

Davian93
02-21-2012, 09:36 PM
Except that Egwene had to use the Power in that case.

Because she's weak-willed and soft...unlike Tuon.

Lupusdeusest
02-23-2012, 05:44 AM
We know it's harder to normal-compel someone holding the Power (from memory, forgive me if I am wrong. I have been on a train for 9h and my head is funny.)

FelixPax
02-23-2012, 02:22 PM
My question here is how does the ta'veren effect works ? Does it go stronger as the times passez ?

According the Eelfinn in ToM book, the center of the storm can shift, to another individual. In this case, Matrim Cauthon is as of the ending of ToM book, a stronger ta'veren than Rand or Perrin are.

Valan Luca is also an unconfirmed Ta'veren, whom Eldest Alar has seen firsthand.

Valan was at least an equal of Rand al'Thor Ta'vern-ness when he visited Stedding Tsofu. Valan during this time, was a greater Ta'veren than both Mat Cauthon and Perrin Aybara. These comparisons are known, because Alar knew she had this Talent, before Rand arrived at Stedding Tsofu.



One lessor known, example of Ta'veren-ness in action, for the repealing of Padan Fain Mordeith's killer fog from the Rahad. At the time, both Valan Luca and Matrim Cauthon were in Ebou Dar. Where Valan goes, the sunny skies followed. [Well, this changes when gentling begins to catch up to Valan. Then it gets stormy....]

A slightly more known example, is when Perrin, Mat, Rand, Verin & others were pushed by the Pattern to arrive months later on Toman's Head [TGH book]. In a nutshell, Valan Luca's Ta'veren-ness pushed the other three Ta'verens to wait, for him to arrive at the Almoth Plain/Toman's Head from the Borderlands.