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Tomp
02-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Don't know if this has already been asked.


If an AS links with a Wise one and passes control over to the WO.
Can the WO then use the power as a weapon with the added strength of the AS?

GonzoTheGreat
02-15-2012, 04:56 PM
If an AS links with a Wise one and passes control over to the WO.
Can the WO then use the power as a weapon with the added strength of the AS?
Yes.
But if the AS thinks that is going to happen, then she wouldn't be able to pass over control.

Zombie Sammael
02-16-2012, 06:30 AM
Yes.
But if the AS thinks that is going to happen, then she wouldn't be able to pass over control.

It would depend on whether she felt that would be an example of her using the Power as a weapon or not. I'm inclined to agree that she wouldn't, because (1) she would be "using" the Power within the link and (2) it would be being used as a weapon, but there is a bit of wiggle room there. Of course, AS tend not to use their wiggle room very well with respect to this oath.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2012, 06:47 AM
But when Neald went and made a weapon with the OP, he specifically asked the WOs for a circle. He did not ask the AS, and there is the implication (though not definite proof) that the AS wouldn't have helped with that because of their Oath.

Tomp
02-16-2012, 08:25 AM
I thought more like that the AS was duped into a link and passed control over before they realised what was happening.

Ishara
02-16-2012, 09:28 AM
In which case, Gonzo's answer is accurate. Yes, her share of the OP could be used as a weapon (or to create one).

WinespringBrother
02-16-2012, 10:09 AM
From a Q&A:

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Shannan Lieb
Question
One question was for a role-playing group, and they asked, "Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?"
Robert Jordan
He answered that no, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

Dajoran
02-16-2012, 11:00 AM
From a Q&A:

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Shannan Lieb
Question
One question was for a role-playing group, and they asked, "Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?"
Robert Jordan
He answered that no, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

If that is the case then I would like to think the answer to Tomp's question is that if an Aes Sedai was led to believe that she was joining a circle for benign purposes she could join, but if the circle then turned into a Weapon of sorts her portion of the one power would snap away from the circle.

Kind of like how Galina's tongue freezes mid sentence when Therava adds a new rule to her oath. The flow of One Power would freeze or seize up from the affected Aes Sedai.

fionwe1987
02-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Since Aes Sedai in a forced ring like the a dam creates can't be made to use the OP as a weapon, I think if a Wise One in a circle use the OP as a weapon suddenly, the Ads Sedai would begin choking and die.

WinespringBrother
02-16-2012, 03:01 PM
Perhaps the Aes Sedai might build up saidar but not release it to the circle, causing it to go out of control, like Rand did at the beginning of TDR:

Dragon Reborn CHAPTER: 5 - Nightmares Walking
"Rand," Perrin began, but Rand cut him off. "Do you know what I did during the fight?" Still staring into the distance, Rand addressed the night. "Nothing! Nothing useful. At first, when I reached out for the True Source, I couldn't touch it, couldn't grasp it. It kept sliding away. Then, when I finally had hold of it, I was going to burn them all, burn all the Trollocs and Fades. And all I could do was set fire to some trees." He shook with silent laughter, then stopped with a pained grimace. "Saidin filled me till I thought I'd explode like fireworks. I had to channel it somewhere, get rid of it before it burned me up, and I found myself thinking about pulling the mountain down and burying the Trollocs. I almost tried. That was my fight. Not against the Trollocs. Against myself. To keep from burying us all under the mountain. "

Or maybe she will get burned out. It would be nice to see an example of this in the books so that we know :)

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 03:09 PM
This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)

WinespringBrother
02-16-2012, 03:30 PM
This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)

The battle at Shadar Logoth would have justified any oath breaking due to the extreme danger of all the Aes Sedai in circles, such as Sarene and Corele facing off against Demandred.

The only Aes Sedai in the circle channeling the Bowl of the Winds were Nynaeve and Elayne, since none of the others were strong enough. Since they weren't oathbound, and the Bowl was not exactly a weapon, this is a moot point.

The circles during the bubble of evil scourge at Salidar would have been used for protection while in mortal danger.

Likewise the circles formed while fighting off the Seanchan at the White Tower.

Can't think of any other examples off the top of my head.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 03:38 PM
The battle at Shadar Logoth would have justified any oath breaking due to the extreme danger of all the Aes Sedai in circles, such as Sarene and Corele facing off against Demandred.

The only Aes Sedai in the circle channeling the Bowl of the Winds were Nynaeve and Elayne, since none of the others were strong enough. Since they weren't oathbound, and the Bowl was not exactly a weapon, this is a moot point.

The circles during the bubble of evil scourge at Salidar would have been used for protection while in mortal danger.

Likewise the circles formed while fighting off the Seanchan at the White Tower.

Can't think of any other examples off the top of my head.
You're assuming that Black oaths also demand 'danger'?

Ishara
02-16-2012, 03:59 PM
No, he's saying that the example that we know of a Black Sister leading a circle is not applicable, as the situation in which the cirle was being led was one of total danger, therefore the point is moot.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 04:04 PM
No Ishara, you misunderstand me.

Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point). Now let's say that a handful of Black sisters knew or at least believed that the Seanchan assault was a Fosaken action. Any circle they were in might have strange properties, ie a lightsided leader might not be able to touch to'raken with the Power, or whatnot.

WinespringBrother
02-16-2012, 04:35 PM
This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)

You're assuming that Black oaths also demand 'danger'?

No, he's saying that the example that we know of a Black Sister leading a circle is not applicable, as the situation in which the cirle was being led was one of total danger, therefore the point is moot.

I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths, and my response was that the situation at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing did not apply since all the sisters were in mortal danger. So that would not be a good situation to winnow out who could allow a circle to be used outside its normal constraints due to having a non-oathbound sister as a participant. Basically, what Ishara said.

No Ishara, you misunderstand me.

Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point). Now let's say that a handful of Black sisters knew or at least believed that the Seanchan assault was a Fosaken action. Any circle they were in might have strange properties, ie a lightsided leader might not be able to touch to'raken with the Power, or whatnot.

This example is saying that a member of the circle is bound by an oath to not allow an action that the normal oaths allow, which is the opposite situation of your presumed original question, which was that a member of the circle is unbound by the oath that normally would be prohibited to the circle due to the 3 oaths. This 2nd situation is more similar to the prohibitions on oathbound damane from breaking the 3rd oath with channeling usage as a weapon.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths, and my response was that the situation at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing did not apply since all the sisters were in mortal danger. So that would not be a good situation to winnow out who could allow a circle to be used outside its normal constraints due to having a non-oathbound sister as a participant. Basically, what Ishara said.
Ishara said something entirely beside my point. I'll try to be clearer:
You said-
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths

I meant-
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 Black oaths

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Whether the circle would cease to function or simply not draw Power from the Black sisters, it seems that there would be something in the way of evidence.

Essentially, I wonder if anomalies in the channeling of a circle with bound channelers of mixed allegiances could reveal what the Black oaths are.

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 04:45 AM
Whether the circle would cease to function or simply not draw Power from the Black sisters, it seems that there would be something in the way of evidence.

Essentially, I wonder if anomalies in the channeling of a circle with bound channelers of mixed allegiances could reveal what the Black oaths are.

Like say a situation... if I were to use an example of the Callandor circle with Elza. (This will contain a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly)

If we take that the circle was active and it wasn't Elza leading the circle but perhaps Cads.

If Elza knew that Dashiva was actually Osan'gar / Aginor.

If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.

Is this what you are saying?

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 05:09 AM
Like say a situation... if I were to use an example of the Callandor circle with Elza. (This will contain a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly)

If we take that the circle was active and it wasn't Elza leading the circle but perhaps Cads.

If Elza knew that Dashiva was actually Osan'gar / Aginor.

If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.

Is this what you are saying?
Precisely. Not sure what kind of glasses ishara was wearing, it seems I was quite clear.

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2012, 05:50 AM
If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.
Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 06:10 AM
Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.
True. But beside my question, at least. In the loosest sense, I wondered if there was a way to accurately extrapolate the Black oaths from the text.
Like say a situation... contain(ing) a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly

Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point)...Any circle (Black sisters) were in might have strange properties

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 07:14 AM
Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.

I wasn't insinuating that this was something we could actually extrapolate from the text. It was just a hypothetical situation in response to The Unreasoner.

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2012, 07:35 AM
I don't think the Black Oaths would stop a BA member from doing anything that a typical normal AS would be able to do in circumstances where she's observed. If there were a marked difference, then the BA would have been discovered long ago already.
So while it is an interesting approach, I don't think it will lead anywhere at all.

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 07:56 AM
I don't think the Black Oaths would stop a BA member from doing anything that a typical normal AS would be able to do in circumstances where she's observed. If there were a marked difference, then the BA would have been discovered long ago already.
So while it is an interesting approach, I don't think it will lead anywhere at all.
That's a reasonable assumption. But:
-The non-DF Aes Sedai have a long and proud tradition of not connecting the dots under their noses

-The world is different now: The Forsaken are loose, circles are more prevalent and in more varied uses (other than the obvious healing/demonstration), and the Pattern might have not 'needed' to expose the BA before.

Hypothetically, if one Oath is to not give a Forsaken a haircut with the Power, this really isn't the sort of thing that could have just come about already (especially since everyone 'knew' Baalzamon was the DO)

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2012, 08:36 AM
Hypothetically, if one Oath is to not give a Forsaken a haircut with the Power, this really isn't the sort of thing that could have just come about already (especially since everyone 'knew' Baalzamon was the DO)
True, but that would mean that for thousands of years, one third of the dark oaths had been wasted.

And who would have stuck such an oath into the mix?
I doubt it would have been Isha'mael. As you point out, he wouldn't have been worried over backstabbing anyway.
I doubt it would have been BA members themselves. They would have wanted to be able to rise in the ranks, after all.
It wouldn't have been the DO. He wants his underlings to compete, so that the strongest survive.

Ishara
02-17-2012, 08:59 AM
Precisely. Not sure what kind of glasses ishara was wearing, it seems I was quite clear.

True. But beside my question, at least. In the loosest sense, I wondered if there was a way to accurately extrapolate the Black oaths from the text.

To be fair, you didn't actually come out with the point of all of the what ifs until post 228. To get an answer to the question you'd like answered you actually need to articulate it effectively. ;)

As it stands guys, one or two more posts on the subject gets it moved to its own thread...

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 10:06 AM
(I think this might be the one that drives it into newthreadom :o)

True, but that would mean that for thousands of years, one third of the dark oaths had been wasted.

That's if we assume that the BA oaths are indeed Three to parallel the AS oaths. They probably are - it is the magic number in this series after all. But anywho...

I was just gathering up the odd quotes about the BA oaths and of course came to Verin's chapter in TGS. She points twice to the oath about not betraying the Dark One:

"The oaths one makes to the Great Lord are quite specific," she finally continued. "And, when they are placed upon one who can channel, they are quite binding. Impossible to break. You can double-cross other Dark-friends, you can turn against the Chosen if you can justify it. Selfishness must be preserved. But you can never betray him. You can never betray the order itself to outsiders. But the oaths are specific. Very specific." She looked up, meeting Egwene's eyes. " 'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.' That was what I promised. Do you see?"

Verin has given us an idea of what might be contained in a BA oath... as well as a couple of clauses "very specific" and "(on a channeler)impossible to break".

(Side note: but not impossible to circumvent the Oath's intention, Verin? By using that awesome loophole that you Brown Ajah'd with your epic Brown Ajahness?)

So now, we have that line "turn against the Chosen if you can justify it" obviously isn't an oath but it is a leading point to an different oath, maybe if as you suggest, it could have been Ishamael who applied the original oaths, so it could be something along the lines of: 'Obey the Chosen unless their actions contradict the wishes of the Great Lord' or something.

In this, Liandran seemingly did use justification before her attempt on Moghedien:

"We await orders from the Tower, Great Misteress"... If their failure was anyone's fault it was Moghedien's herself... "We have been given great responsibilities, great works to perform, and surely we will be commanded to continue -"

Moghedien cut her off sharply. "You serve whichever of the Chosen chooses to snap you up....

Perhaps the woman truly was in flight from the other Forsaken. To hand her over to them would surely earn her a high place. She might even become one of them. She had a trick, learned in childhood. And she could touch the Source.

But our main discussion is whether there is a situation in which a BA can be exposed due to her Oath.

I come back to Verin:

'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.' That was what I promised. Do you see?"

Very specific that bolded bit, it brings be back again to Elza and the Callandor Wielder's (Awesome name for a female fronted rock trio.)

Whatever the cost, the Dragon Reborn had to reach the Last Battle. Whatever the cost...
...Today, she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would understand if she had actually killed any of them

This comes down to the nature of belief.
Elza is obviously a very Dark-One-devoted BA. She has killed Forsaken, protected Rand while he cleansed Saidin, helped imprison Forsaken (well she was complicit in Semi's imprisonment as well as escape but we won't split hairs.) But it seems that up until she is working with Semi she is acting from a specific (slightly Moridin sounding) set of instructions. She is not in her belief betraying the DO.

This is like how Verin had belief in that specific arrangement to her Oath, so was able to let spill in the 'hour of her death'. Or how a Saildar Aes Sedai making the statement "Suian Sanche is dead." is telling her truthful belief, it is a lie, or rather a falsity, but not to her.

So now I take it this way. (You are going to hate me for this)

If Elza wasn't controlling the weaves but was in a circle with another BA unbeknownst to her.

And if her belief in the 'don't betray the DO' but following an order to make sure Rand got to the last battle was rock solid.

IF that secondary BA suddenly directed the flow at Rand.

Would Elza's oath kick in drop her out of the circle?? :D



Kidding.


But seriously, I don't buy the whole "BA would have been discovered long ago" thing.

The last time there has been a situation in which the BA would operate markedly different would be the Trolloc War’s. So there would be no true reason or situation wherein the BA would actively expose themselves in a day-to-day basis type way.

Which is why I am offering up the loony situations :D

GonzoTheGreat
02-17-2012, 10:50 AM
That's if we assume that the BA oaths are indeed Three to parallel the AS oaths. They probably are - it is the magic number in this series after all. But anywho...
It sort of makes sense.

Especially in the light of the following, which is from Galina's POV:
She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.
Anyhow ... :D

The last time there has been a situation in which the BA would operate markedly different would be the Trolloc War’s. So there would be no true reason or situation wherein the BA would actively expose themselves in a day-to-day basis type way.
They might also have been acting differently when Ishamael was running around, whispering in Hawkwing's ear.

And right around Rand's birth, until Ishamael put a stop to that.

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 10:51 AM
It sort of makes sense.

Especially in the light of the following, which is from Galina's POV:

Anyhow ... :D

:D Touché!

WinespringBrother
02-17-2012, 10:54 AM
There are indeed 3 black ajah oaths (this is Galina Casban's POV):

Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.

It would have been interesting if Seaine and company tried to use the Black Ajah oaths in this manner to try to reveal them, though it would have been kind of reckless as opposed to the means they used. AFAIK, they never even bothered to learn what the BA oaths are. But then again, Egwene, with some wicked cleverness, used their lack of 3 oaths to trip up Sheriam.

However, it may be a moot point to have Black Ajah sisters hypothetically slip up while part of a circle. Since at least some of them know a trick for forcing someone into a circle (for interrogation/punishment/torture/what have you), perhaps some of them know a trick for extracting themselves from a circle as well though I'm sure they would only use this in extreme circumstances.

Path of Daggers CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 10:58 AM
However, it may be a moot point to have Black Ajah sisters hypothetically slip up while part of a circle. Since at least some of them know a trick for forcing someone into a circle (for interrogation/punishment/torture/what have you), perhaps some of them know a trick for extracting themselves from a circle as well though I'm sure they would only use this in extreme circumstances.

I was lead to believe that 'involuntary rings' were the a'dam?

WinespringBrother
02-17-2012, 11:12 AM
I was lead to believe that 'involuntary rings' were the a'dam?

Forgot, there is also this more explicit quote:

Knife of Dreams CH: PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass
What they had learned about the Black Ajah's means of putting someone to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible. Forcing a woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain? Pevara felt her stomach writhing. "Talene doesn't think she's to be honored or given an assignment," Yukiri went on, "so she begged to be hidden away. Saerin put her in a room in the lowest basement. Talene may be wrong, but I agree with Saerin. Risking it would be letting a dog into the chicken yard and hoping for the best."

I think that Moridin was thinking about this and not the a'dam, since technically, the sul'dam/damane link is not a true circle.

Dajoran
02-17-2012, 11:30 AM
Forgot, there is also this more explicit quote:

Ah cheers! I am guilty of skimming the Pevara POV's during rereads. There is just something about them that sends me into a daydream read. :o

I think that Moridin was thinking about this and not the a'dam, since technically, the sul'dam/damane link is not a true circle.

I can see where you are coming from - but I see the a'dam as representing a true circle. The laws by which it can be used - as well as what it ultimately leads to...

I think for that Moridin POV it's a distinction in each persons reading. I would see what what was described in the quote you used as a Forced Circle, and an a'dam as an Involuntary Circle. But that is neither here nor there...

I see what you are saying now, that if this is a known skill of the BA then my earlier loonies are moot.

Gotcha! :D

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 04:56 PM
We know that there are three Black Oaths from Galina, but we also know that there probably has to be three to have the equivalent effect on aging. So...having one useless Oath might not be seen as a total loss. Especially if people overthink it: 'Why would they make us swear to not give the Chosen a haircut...unless their release is imminent?

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 11:00 PM
the a'dam actually raises interesting possibilities:
slap a collar on an Aes Sedai, and have the sul'dam try to make a Power-wrought sword.

Instant Darkfriend test.