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final death
02-23-2012, 05:16 PM
The one power seems alot like a hallucinogen at least when it comes to how it changes perception. But it also seems to act like a strong narcotic. When not using the one power people male and female describe it as giving up life its self or life leaving them and everything becoming gray. Semmiharage was right to much pain or pleasure will ruin a persons mind. If you have ever seen a person on meth or heroin and tried to have a conversation you would see what a wreak they are. One power users don't seem to build up a resistance to the side effects of the one power. My question is how addictive is the one power and is the fact that they get the same effect from the one power every time a danger or is it good.

Great Lord of the Dark
02-23-2012, 05:26 PM
Not drugs. I always thought the One Power most resembled Sex. Men fight with their desires, women must surrender to control it (it's in the books, I'm just the messenger), and everyone wants it really really badly. When they hold the Power, they do not want to let go. Too much of it can burn you out. Et cetera. But using it will not harm or kill you. It's not addictive ion and of itself.

Now that I'm doing my reread, the analogy doesn't seem as strong. The surrendering seems related to later plots with Nynaeve since it hasn't really come up in the early books, and the overt male sexuality is more related to Lanfear's presence when Rand learns to channel than the Power itself.

The analogy to certain drugs seems to work better when you see withdrawal in those who have been cut off or stilled.

LadyFiona
02-23-2012, 05:40 PM
I have also thought that the effects seem to mimic a narcotic, especially when Rand goes through his denial phase in books 2-3 and tries to avoid channeling, but wants to, and ends up doing it anyways despite his best efforts.

However, if it TRULY caused a reaction like a, for instance, heroine, one would have to A) "Get Clean" and stop using it or B) Need to use more and more of it each time to receive the desired effect, and eventually overdose resulting in severing or death.

Experienced Aes Sedai warn of the dangers of such, but they themselves seemed to have mastered the balance, so it seems the one power is not an addiction on the scale of a hard drug like heroine or meth, because it can be controlled with will power and education. Perhaps it is more like a sleeping pill. It CAN be habit forming, and may be dangerous, especially if taken with alcohol (angreal, sa'angreal), but if you are prudent and use it as directed, it should cause no ill effects.

This "drug-like" property is also why it was so alarming that one of Aviendha's children was holding the source perpetually. Perhaps we will find out more about that possible future, perhaps not, but it was an oddity.

LadyFiona
02-23-2012, 05:50 PM
Not drugs. I always thought the One Power most resembled Sex.

This made me think of Avatar. Shame on you for bringing those images of "ponytail sex" to my mind!

I can sort of see where you are coming from, but, excepting fatal STDs or a heart attack, or--if you want to stretch it--dying in childbirth, too much sex never killed anyone, or made them incapable of experiencing it again.

Being denied sex does not, in most cases, make one suicidal, especially if they are willing to follow the Han Solo method.

I imagine there is not a 1:1 parallel here anyways, but rather pulled from multiple analogies, as much of the books are influenced by multiple myths, legends, works of literature.

Davian93
02-23-2012, 06:56 PM
One of the things I actually have issue with on WoT is the lack of rogue channelers in Randland proper outside of False Dragons. Considering what we see of how addictive the OP is, I dont buy that "good discipline" is enough to prevent female AS from attempting to setup mini-kingdoms just like Seanchan before the Consolidation. The White Tower is to be commended for their diligence in preventing such a scenario I suppose.


I would equate it as far closer to drug addiction than sex personally.

fionwe1987
02-23-2012, 08:48 PM
One of the things I actually have issue with on WoT is the lack of rogue channelers in Randland proper outside of False Dragons. Considering what we see of how addictive the OP is, I dont buy that "good discipline" is enough to prevent female AS from attempting to setup mini-kingdoms just like Seanchan before the Consolidation. The White Tower is to be commended for their diligence in preventing such a scenario I suppose.

I would equate it as far closer to drug addiction than sex personally.

You need to remember, though, that a single rogue channeler can do limited damage. A large organization like the WT will crush them very soon. You need to have channelers working with you, which explains why so many False Dragons try to find other men, why the Tower beaks up any groups of channelers larger than two people, and why the thought of the Black Tower scares them so much.

As for False Dragons, their destructive ability is owed as much to the notoriety of the title as the ability to channel. Which is why there have been FDs who couldn't channel.

LadyFiona
02-23-2012, 09:42 PM
You need to remember, though, that a single rogue channeler can do limited damage. A large organization like the WT will crush them very soon.

Right. Men that are born with the spark are rare, and know that they will be gentled if they are found. They can either try to hide, or try (foolishly) to gather enough support to possibly fight off the White Tower.

Women born with the spark usually die unless they go to the tower. If they survive and become a wilder, they have a very crude control and can't do much with it. Those that can learn, have to go to the Tower to learn. Groups of channelers not connected to the Tower either fear discovery by them (Kin, Sea Folk) or revere them (Aiel) or they have their own system to control channelers (Seanchan). Women taken TO the tower are indoctrinated from a young age (this is likely why they didn't accept older women, as they are harder to mold) to obey the Tower.

If they don't make it through training, they aren't strong enough to be a threat anyways. If they do, they are sworn to the 3 oaths. While the Oaths don't necessarily prevent one from having power (i.e. Elayne being Queen) it limits what you could do to achieve power. No lying. No using the OP as a weapon. No making weapons for people to hurt each other. Even if you could get around those, you have to answer to the Amyrlin, and she would send a group of sisters after you to drag you off to a farm somewhere to hoe cabbages for the rest of your life.

The Black Ajah could be considered "rogue channelers" but even they have to operate in secrecy, because, well, they don't want to be caught and stilled/executed any more than the next bloke.

Zombie Sammael
02-24-2012, 06:15 AM
Let's see: it first appears around puberty, is extremely pleasurable, can have extreme consequences, and can be incredibly dangerous if not controlled.

I always saw the OP as a metaphor for sex. The various euphorias and sicknesses channellers experience when first touching the source reminded me of the ways early sexual experiences felt. I did feel that, if that was what he was going for, Jordan missed the mark a bit with how Saidin felt, but that may be down to individual experience as much as anything else.

I don't really get the drug metaphor. The consequences of withdrawal don't match what I know of narcotics, and nor do the consequences of repeated use. In fact, channelling helps those who engage in it to live richer, fuller lives (a lot like good sex).

Davian93
02-24-2012, 08:32 AM
You need to remember, though, that a single rogue channeler can do limited damage. A large organization like the WT will crush them very soon. You need to have channelers working with you, which explains why so many False Dragons try to find other men, why the Tower beaks up any groups of channelers larger than two people, and why the thought of the Black Tower scares them so much.

As for False Dragons, their destructive ability is owed as much to the notoriety of the title as the ability to channel. Which is why there have been FDs who couldn't channel.

I should be more specific...I'm just surprised there havent been more splits in the WT too...though we do hear about a half dozen or so per the secret histories (through Siuan). Its just surprising that they all toe the party line like that and there aren't more fractures.

Davian93
02-24-2012, 08:33 AM
Let's see: it first appears around puberty, is extremely pleasurable, can have extreme consequences, and can be incredibly dangerous if not controlled.

I always saw the OP as a metaphor for sex. The various euphorias and sicknesses channellers experience when first touching the source reminded me of the ways early sexual experiences felt. I did feel that, if that was what he was going for, Jordan missed the mark a bit with how Saidin felt, but that may be down to individual experience as much as anything else.

I don't really get the drug metaphor. The consequences of withdrawal don't match what I know of narcotics, and nor do the consequences of repeated use. In fact, channelling helps those who engage in it to live richer, fuller lives (a lot like good sex).

You can OD on the OP and you can OD on drugs.

Zombie Sammael
02-24-2012, 11:07 AM
You can OD on the OP and you can OD on drugs.

You saying you've never burned yourself out before? Poor guy...

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 11:35 AM
If you think of the OP as sex, a lot of statements in the books take an entirely different meaning.

For instance, Ishy telling Rand "Fool! You will destroy yourself! You cannot wield it so, not yet! Not until I teach you!" when discussing Rand's "Sword" of power.

Davian93
02-24-2012, 12:38 PM
You saying you've never burned yourself out before? Poor guy...

Never to the point of death....obviously.

The Unreasoner
02-24-2012, 01:10 PM
Never to the point of death....obviously.
oh come on...just a petit mort.

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 01:44 PM
You saying you've never burned yourself out before? Poor guy...

To the point where you could never, ever do it again? That's some serious chafing.

confused at birth
02-24-2012, 01:53 PM
To the point where you could never, ever do it again? That's some serious chafing.

Well it can happen

I cant remember who but some old rockstar claims he had so much sex on tour that his penis exploded during the act and had to rush to hospital holding it together in a towel:eek:



Found him
http://www.cracked.com/article_16120_historys-7-most-astounding-sexual-resumes.html

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 02:27 PM
Well it can happen

I cant remember who but some old rockstar claims he had so much sex on tour that his penis exploded during the act and had to rush to hospital holding it together in a towel:eek:



Found him
http://www.cracked.com/article_16120_historys-7-most-astounding-sexual-resumes.html


Yeah, I had to look it up.

One word: OUCH!

"According to Chuck Negron, one of the three lead singers of the band that virtually lived in the Top 40 in the early 1970s ('Joy to the World,' 'An Old-Fashioned Love Song,' 'One'), his by-the-book excesses -- sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, followed by (a lot) more sex --eventually led to a brutal incident in which he found himself holding his bleeding instrument, split open "like a hot dog," in an emergency room in Oklahoma.

In his book 'Three Dog Nightmare,' Negron recounts the buildup to this traumatic event. He went to see a doctor to get help with his organ, which was growing swollen and chapped from overuse. "In my ignorance I thought, 'Wow! It's just like working out a muscle. It's going to be huge!'"

The doctor, however, was appalled. He made the singer promise to quit shtupping, cold turkey.

A week later the singer spotted a beauty queen backstage, "a Miss-Something-or-Other" who was ignoring the advances of his bandmates. Back in Negron's room, one thing quickly led to another. Suddenly, he heard a ripping sound: "Tsh-tsH-tSHTSH!"

The embarrassment, he reports, was even more painful than the injury. Everyone on the hospital staff was "pointing and giggling," and the doctor who stitched his manhood back together laughed all the while. "


Still not fatal though, and apparently he made a full recovery.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-24-2012, 02:32 PM
let's steer back on topic boys and girls. :p this thread is entertaining in it's own right...we can move the exploding penis chat to the Non Boards, m'kay?

confused at birth
02-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Still not fatal though, and apparently he made a full recovery.

Well didnt the guy that got it chopped off by his wife do porn after it got put back on(not sure and this one I am not looking up)?

but this is only because we have good doctors, I am sure if this happened to Mat he would either bleed to death or have to make do without if he couldnt find a willing Aes Sedai to reattach it in time.

bowlwoman
02-24-2012, 02:43 PM
So, could Mat hanging from the tree in Rhuidean be considered a form of erotic auto-asphyxiation? He himself isn't a channeler, but he does have the medallion to ward off any channeling. So, the "logical" conclusion is that he'd have to take care of...things...himself.

See? Back on topic.

confused at birth
02-24-2012, 02:59 PM
He himself isn't a channeler, but he does have the medallion to ward off any channeling.

No but since half of the people in the thread I was reading this morning seem to think he is some kind of sex addict he might have run into one of those situations if Tuon hadnt come along.

Not drugs.

Well speaking from personal experience long term use the power seems pretty close to a drug addiction. Having gone cold turkey from a year long painkiller addiction(7-10 pills a day) the description of stilling is pretty close to what I went through.

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 03:01 PM
So, could Mat hanging from the tree in Rhuidean be considered a form of erotic auto-asphyxiation? He himself isn't a channeler, but he does have the medallion to ward off any channeling. So, the "logical" conclusion is that he'd have to take care of...things...himself.

See? Back on topic.

/facepalm

This does bring up the problem of non-channelers though. The vast majority of the population (excepting the Two Rivers, apparently) is not "force sensitive". Does this imply that they are all impotent?

bowlwoman
02-24-2012, 03:04 PM
This does bring up the problem of non-channelers though. The vast majority of the population (excepting the Two Rivers, apparently) is not "force sensitive". Does this imply that they are all impotent?

Well, not to rehash the Santorum thread, but maybe they only have sex for procreational purposes, not recreational use.

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 03:15 PM
Well, not to rehash the Santorum thread, but maybe they only have sex for procreational purposes, not recreational use.

Except, Mat is definitely NOT trying to procreate, and he gets it on more than anyone else we see other than maybe Myrelle, and as Felix so painstakingly pointed out in another thread, Calle Coplin (that one somehow manages to pull the most obscure stuff out of his rear)

The way Maidens ran him ragged all night long playing Maiden's Kiss resonates highly of recreation, also.

And if the OP were as good as, or better than the deed, why is Myrelle such a horn dog?

I am a newbie, and hence unfamiliar with the Santorum thread.

Davian93
02-24-2012, 03:27 PM
And if the OP were as good as, or better than the deed, why is Myrelle such a horn dog?

Perhaps she enjoys both?

Liking one doesn't preclude enjoying the other.

I am a newbie, and hence unfamiliar with the Santorum thread.

From what I recall, it was a frothy, disgusting mess.

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 03:59 PM
From what I recall, it was a frothy, disgusting mess.

I'll take a pass on that then.

I don't really like the idea of OP=sex because it can easily put the mind in the gutter. I mean, does that make Asmodeon's tutelage of Rand Pederasty a la Ancient Greece? While fun, and funny to ponder, I don't THINK (think, mind, not know) that was what was intended.

Another little quote about Rand's sword:
"...a fiery white bolt shot from the point..."
TEotW

FelixPax
02-24-2012, 04:47 PM
And if the OP were as good as, or better than the deed, why is Myrelle such a horn dog?

She's an Altaran! :D
She's a Green Ajah! :eek:
She's has Talent! ;)

Great Lord of the Dark
02-24-2012, 05:48 PM
The most outrageous double entendres are all when Selene is talking to Rand when they first meet. Very deliberate specific word use. Outside of this, the descriptions are more mundane. The imagery with saidar, up until the Dragon Reborn is much more in line with the drug metaphor. Both are apt metaphors, but that is probably because both sex and drugs are themselves metaphors for feeling more alive.

bowlwoman
02-24-2012, 07:17 PM
She's a Green Ajah! :eek:


I didn't think she had that much sex...

I can see it now: I Am the Ajah - An Aes Sedai's Guide to the "Lifestyle" for Green Sisters by Myrelle Sedai

LadyFiona
02-24-2012, 11:06 PM
I didn't think she had that much sex...

Hmm, I dunno, she is definitely banging all of her Warders. She's had 5 that we know of. I don't know if she had any others prior to her current Warders.

I can see it now: I Am the Ajah - An Aes Sedai's Guide to the "Lifestyle" for Green Sisters by Myrelle Sedai

Where can I buy that? I want one!

Seeker
02-25-2012, 11:18 AM
In answer to Dav's question, I think the Oath against violence is the biggest deterent to Aes Sedai setting up their own little kingdoms. Essentially, being unable to use the Power to kill people removes a lot of their leverage. They have nothing to threaten people with.

BUT

That said, Egwene's protestations aside, I'm almost certian the Oath against violence (and probably the other two as well) are going to go away in the next few hundred years.

RJ has made it clear that Randland is headed for an industrial revolution, which means that a few centuries from now, there will not just guns and bombs but long rangee missiles. It's only a matter of time before someone starts threatening Tar Valon with military might.

LadyFiona
02-25-2012, 12:10 PM
Well, if they thought they were going to be bombed, wouldn't that qualify as self-defense, making the Oath irrelevant?

I agree that I think the Oaths, and the young-age indoctrination of initiates is what keeps the Aes Sedai in line. I remember how horrified Verin was at the super-girls for blowing up the ground to scare the Whitecloaks, and they didn't even hurt anyone. Soul crushing pot scrubbing for you if you don't follow protocol!

final death
02-27-2012, 06:00 PM
I think the drug metaphor holds later in the books also. I have a natural( or maybe less than natural) resistance to quite a few drugs because as a child i was on a variety of medications. The one power only has two apparent differences, one is you don't build up a resistance to the euphoria it gives you. The second is that all channelers have a short and long term OD sensor, short in the form of the pain and burning if the use/hold to much at one time. Long in the way mention the form of headaches that egwene got were partially from straining herself to much. Also the one power or at least its side effects seems a lot like the spice melange from planet Arrakis in the dune series. The spice had a variety of effects including a increased healthier life span. The withdrawl was also lethal.

Zombie Sammael
02-28-2012, 03:50 AM
I think the drug metaphor holds later in the books also. I have a natural( or maybe less than natural) resistance to quite a few drugs because as a child i was on a variety of medications. The one power only has two apparent differences, one is you don't build up a resistance to the euphoria it gives you. The second is that all channelers have a short and long term OD sensor, short in the form of the pain and burning if the use/hold to much at one time. Long in the way mention the form of headaches that egwene got were partially from straining herself to much. Also the one power or at least its side effects seems a lot like the spice melange from planet Arrakis in the dune series. The spice had a variety of effects including a increased healthier life span. The withdrawl was also lethal.

Egwene's headaches were caused by Aran'gar for an unspecified reason (possibly to prevent or inhibit her dreaming talents), not because she was channelling too much.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2012, 04:14 AM
Egwene's headaches were caused by Aran'gar for an unspecified reason (possibly to prevent or inhibit her dreaming talents), not because she was channelling too much.
I always thought that Aran'gar caused those headaches in order to cure them. Specifically: in order to get Egwene used to needing Aran'gar to cure them, as the AS didn't have much luck in healing them. And, of course, that dependence gave Aran'gar the opportunity to be close enough to work her dream magic.

Zombie Sammael
02-28-2012, 04:28 AM
I always thought that Aran'gar caused those headaches in order to cure them. Specifically: in order to get Egwene used to needing Aran'gar to cure them, as the AS didn't have much luck in healing them. And, of course, that dependence gave Aran'gar the opportunity to be close enough to work her dream magic.

I actually lean towards the idea of this being an unresolved mystery. Egwene might be more willing to forgive Dark Rand if it turns out she is/was under compulsion and there's a Dark Egwene* too.

*don't go there - I've already thought of all the jokes you could come up with

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2012, 04:47 AM
Egwene might be more willing to forgive Dark Rand if it turns out she is/was under compulsion and there's a Dark Egwene* too.
Isn't that simply Tuon? :p

The Unreasoner
02-28-2012, 05:00 AM
I actually lean towards the idea of this being an unresolved mystery. Egwene might be more willing to forgive Dark Rand if it turns out she is/was under compulsion and there's a Dark Egwene* too.

*don't go there - I've already thought of all the jokes you could come up with
Bet you didn't think of this one...
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Dark Egwene

lol.

Anyway, I thought I remember Aran'gar thinking about her attempts to monitor Egwene's dreams and TAR excursions...and how she needed to be close. So I think it's point-Gonzo. No sabotage wanted, but she needed Egwene to need her close at hand at night.

Zombie Sammael
02-28-2012, 05:03 AM
Bet you didn't think of this one...
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Dark Egwene

lol.

Anyway, I thought I remember Aran'gar thinking about her attempts to monitor Egwene's dreams and TAR excursions...and how she needed to be close. So I think it's point-Gonzo. No sabotage wanted, but she needed Egwene to need her close at hand at night.



Image not showing up. Probably because the URL is super-huge.

The Unreasoner
02-28-2012, 05:04 AM
Image not showing up. Probably because the URL is super-huge.
it's fixed

LadyFiona
02-28-2012, 09:01 AM
I always thought that Aran'gar caused those headaches in order to cure them. Specifically: in order to get Egwene used to needing Aran'gar to cure them, as the AS didn't have much luck in healing them. And, of course, that dependence gave Aran'gar the opportunity to be close enough to work her dream magic.

This was the impression I got as well. I think I assumed early on that the headaches were artificially created.