PDA

View Full Version : OP strength rankings


Pages : [1] 2

greatwolf
02-26-2012, 07:26 AM
I've been trying to put together a definitive (or as close as possible) OP strength list for some time now. Ok since forever. But there are obvious problems, so i've decided to ask for help. Its meant to list those whose strengths we already know and then we'll try using other hints to figure out who's who among the rest. There'll be alot of unknowns right until the encyclopedia comes out. But since the Alivia/Cyndane match up, i've decided I no longer want to read about a duel between two characters without having an idea what they can do before hand. Especially with TG on the way.

I'll edit the OPost anytime something new is agreed on. Hope you enjoy!

I'm starting with the women since we know more. And just the top echelon for now. We can add the others later. Feel free to add your comments or impressions on the strength of any character(s). Apart from direct quotes on who's stronger than who, I thought we could also use some deductive reasoning from things like gateway size, Slowing and character appearance, and any other clues that might be hiding out there.

The strongest are listed here and quotes follow after.
(1) Lanfear

(2) Sharina Melloy

Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anyone in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation.


(3) is unknown but the following are categorized here : a) Alivia b) Cyndane (c) Semirhage (d) Mora. (e) Talaan. I haven't found anyway to determine who's who among these five. We do not know who was next among the forsaken after Lanfear but 3 things point to semirhage, so she's included here but i have no clue as to whether cyndane is stronger. From the accounts given, Talaan is currently only at par with Nynaeve and shouldn'\t be among these except for her potential. It may be that she'll be as strong as alivia when fully developed. Mora is included only on the basis of slowing, a very indirect (and imprecise) method of assessing strength because it can be affected by other factors.

Next (4) is a group consisting of Graendal, Nynaeve, Someryn. And maybe Metarra. There are quotes to show someone or the other is stronger than those listed here. But only those in the above group (3). Since nyn is stronger than viendre, and Someryn might be as well, then i'll rate the three of them as being close to each other.

Then(5), Mesaana, Moghedien, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha,

I suspect here that Moghedien was the weakest of the female forsaken and that it contributed to why she always acted in the shadows as the spider. And she likely killed off the weaker forsaken long ago. :)

And(6) Nicola, Bodewhin Cauthon,

These two are probably close enough to Egwene to be in the same category. But i placed them here to avoid offense till there's more definite proof.

And finally (7) Cadsuane(Plus Meilyn and Kerean).

A few others are mentioned because they may be able to make this list and displace others even though we have no indication of their strength.


Lanfear and Sharina.


WH ch 35
She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.


Alivia


makes a good show of it, snarling
at them and cursing them, but. . . ." She shook her head slowly in doubt. "She was collared at thirteen or
fourteen, Elayne, she's not certain which, and she's been damane for four hundred years! And aside from that,
she is ... she's . . . Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve," she finished in a rush. Age, the Kin might
discuss openly, but they had all the Aes Sedai reticence about speaking of strength in the Power. "Do we
dare let her free? A Seanchan wilder who could tear the entire Palace apart?

"simple dark blue dress provided by one of the Kinswomen, Alivia did not look at all unusual at
first glance, a woman a little taller than Nynaeve, with fine lines at the corners of her blue eyes and threads
of white in her golden yellow hair. Those blue eyes crackled with intensity, though, like the eyes of a hawk
focused on prey.


Talaan.


were very much stronger than they—sometimes if you were—and Talaan matched her as closely as made no
difference. That helped keep a satisfied smile from her face. It seemed a very short time ago that sisters had
been startled at her strength and believed that only some of the Forsaken possessed greater. Talaan had not
slowed, yet; she was little more than a child. Fifteen? Maybe younger! The Light alone knew what her
potential was. At least, none of the Windfinders had mentioned it, and Nynaeve was not about to ask. She had
no interest in knowing how much stronger than she a Sea Folk girl was going to be. None at all.
Bare feet shuffling on the patterned green carpet, Talaan made one futile attempt to break

"I am nineteen!" Talaan replied indignantly



Cyndane
Tpod

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the
Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now
that she was close. . . . The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had
been uncommon


Someryn (&Graendal)

Someryn drew close to Sevanna. "The woman has the gift," she
whispered without taking her eyes from the pair. "She weaves a barrier." Pursing her lips, she added,
reluctantly, "She is strong. Very strong." From her, that meant something indeed. Sevanna had never been able
to understand why strength in the Power did not count among Wise Ones— while being thankful that it did not,
for her own sake— but Someryn prided herself that she had never encountered a woman near as strong as she.
By her tone, Sevanna suspected this woman was stronger.



Mora


"Nor have I from any save Mora," Bair told them, "but she was a remarkable woman. It was said she
was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake's bite, yet she looked as young as
either of you. I was only a girl, but I remember her well. She knew many things, and could channel strongly.
Other Wise Ones came from every clan to learn from her. I think love so great, or hate so, is very rare, but she
said this happened to her twice, once with the first man she married, and once with a rival for her third
husband's interest."
'Three hundred?" Egwene



Semirhage & Mesaana


In truth, more than amusing herself, she was avoiding conversation with her mpanion. Semirhage sat doing needlework in a high-backed chair covered in red tapestry, long slender fingers deftly making minuscule stitches to form a labyrinthine pattern of tiny flowers. It was always a surprise that the woman liked an activity so... ordinary. Her black dress was a sharp contrast against the chair. Not even Demandred dared suggest to Semirhage’s face that she wore black so often because Lanfear wore white.
For the thousandth time Mesaana tried to analyze why she felt uncomfortable around the other woman. Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses, with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points, and where she did not, she had other strengths to lay against weaknesses in Semirhage. It was not that. Semirhage took delight in cruelty


Semi seemed to be in competition with Lanfear and so maybe she was the closest to her in strength. Graendal suggested she might be the most "powerful" of semurhage, Mesaana and Demandred in ToM iirc. Plus LTT's musings after his shielding by Galina's AS suggest that semi might be first among the female forsaken after Lanfear's death.

Viendre and Tamela


Not like two others in the room she recognized, bony Tamela with her angular face, and Viendre, a beautiful,
blue-eyed eagle. Both were stronger in the Power than she, stronger than any sister she had met save
Nynaeve.

Elayne gave a start, but the next moment Viendre was behind her. “I stand for Elayne Trakand’s
mother, who cannot be here.” Hands on Elayne’s shoulders, Viendre pushed her forward and pressed
down until she was kneeling on the cold tiles in front of Aviendha, then knelt behind her. “I offer my
daughter to her testing.”
Another time, Elayne might have giggled. Neither woman looked more than a half-dozen years
older than Aviendha or her


Metarra


Rainyn was
easily as strong as Lelaine or Romanda, and Metarra on a level with Elayne herself, while Talaan. . . . Talaan, so
meek in her red linen blouse, with eyes that seemed permanently downcast, came very close to Nynaeve. Very
close. More, Elayne knew she herself had not yet reached her full potential, and neither had Nynaeve. How
close were Metarra and Talaan? She had grown accustomed to knowing that only Nynaeve and the Forsaken
were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha's, matched
Egwene's. So much for complacency, she told herself ruefully.


Egwene

Gateway size: aCoS ch
Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped
through onto

Therava


Therava and Someryn were stronger than any woman in
the Tower, and any of them could have been Aes Sedai easily.

Nicola

sisters still grumbled that
they were ten years too old to accept novice discipline—like many of those older women, Nicola was ferocious
in her desire to learn, by all reports, and she had a potential bettered only by Nynaeve,
Elayne and Egwene herself among living Aes Sedai. In fact, Nicola apparently was making great strides,
often great enough that her teachers had to slow her down. Some said she had begun picking up weaves as if she
already knew them. Not only that, but she already demonstrated two Talents, although the ability to "see"
ta'veren was minor, while the major Talent, Foretelling, emerged so that no one understood what she had
Foretold. She herself did not remember a word she said. All in all, Nicola was already marked by the sisters as
someone to watch despite her late start. The begrudging agreement to test women older than seventeen or
eighteen probably could be laid at Nicola's feet.



Bode


Bode’s future would be brilliant. Her potential
almost equaled Egwene’s. But Aes Sedai, Accepted or novice


Even young women of eighteen—the limit they had set for
themselves—often found it hard to accept the strictures of the novitiate, yet had they extended the limit only
five years, she and Alanna could have brought out twice as many, if not more. Five of these girls—five!—had
the spark inborn, including Mat's sister and Wile and young Jancy; they would channel eventually whether
anyone taught them or not and be very strong.



Tuon's sera


Making her way along the two lines, Tuon spoke a few words to each sul'dam and petted each of the
damane. The six she had brought with her were her best, and they beamed at her with a fondness equal to hers
for them. They had competed eagerly to be chosen. Plump, yellow-haired Dali and Dani, sisters who hardly
needed a sul'dam's direction. Charral, her hair as gray as her eyes, but still the most agile in her spinning. Sera,
with red ribbons in her tightly curled black hair, the strongest, and proud as a sul'dam. Tiny Mylen,
shorter even than Tuon herself. Mylen was Tuon's special pride among the six

Cadsuane and co (Meilyn and Kerene)

Cadsuane went on, 'Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are
gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest.' Larelle

Cadsuane scowled, a fearsome sight. 'No one has come to the Tower in a thousand years who could
match me. No one to match Meilyn or Kerene in almost six hundred. A thousand years ago, there would have
been fifty sisters or more who stood higher than this child. In another hundred years, though, she'll stand in the
first rank. Oh, someone stronger may be found in that time, but there won't be fifty, and there may be none. We
dwindle.'

'Holding our silence about age doesn't keep
people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five
once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to
boot.'

Oldest Kin : Aloisia Nemosni

WH ch 10
The oldest anywhere is a woman called Aloisia Nemosni, an oil
merchant in Tear. Egwene, she's nearly six ... hundred . . . years . . . old! When the Hall hears that, I wager
they'll be ready to put the Oath Rod on a shelf.



Reanne's age-
"My next naming day," Reanne said as if it was the most ordinary thing in the world, "will be my
four hundred and twelfth."
Merilille fainted dead away

ETA:
As for the forsaken, I wonder if BS was wrong about semirhage. The sixth person above nyn seems to be the issue. (we already have Lanfear, Sharina, Alivia, Talaan and Cyndane) The sixth name could be one of Semirhage, Graendal, Someryn, Sera, Mora and Aloisia. I think we can drop Mesaana.


Semi - BS says she's not but I used to see her as the the strongest next to Lanfear for reasons earlier mentioned. One additional point here is that the forsaken were always the strongest of the DO's chosen. If these women are the strongest of an age of strong chanellers, realistically how far apart can we put them before some are too weak to be among the "elite"?

PS: Plus I would have loved it if semi had encountered nyn who had done things she couldn't even in a very primitive age and while having less strength to boot! A nice jolt to her ego possibly.

2. Graendal. she's stronger than someryn who is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. But nyn is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. So if nyn = someryn, then Graendal is stronger than both. But her attitude among the forsaken (RJ said a bit about their egos) makes one think she isn't all that strong At least not enough to place her close to Lanfear. More likely she acts like she could be a level or at most two below lanfear which is about where nyn is.

3. Mora based on age. If her life expectancy is upto 900 years then she qualifies to be one of the strongest we've met. To compare, LTT's life expectancy is between 900-1200 years based on age and strength. (of course since he had gray hair early on, he probably wouldn't have made it to 800)

4. Tuon's sera - Is she the strongest damane on this side of the ocean? Or Alivia? It stands to reason that the Imperial family would have kept the strongest damane close. But it also makes military sense to send in your best weapons where the battle is hottest. And Altara was hot!

5. Someryn - strongest of the aiel is how strong? I could reverse my arguement in her favour.i.e since RJ said the forsaken tend to be egostical, Graendal might actually be calling her "considerable" when in fact she's actually stronger! And the only thing that keeps Graendal from eliminating a potential rival right then and there is that she's ignorant. (and of course the ring angreal)

6. Alosia. she's 600 years old and so must have left the WT hundreds of years before Cadsuane came in. And we know the WT covers its failures well. So if Cadsuane says none stronger has come in a thousand years, is she referring to merely OP strength? And we don't know how much she has slowed and how old she looks now.

Note:

I no longer think gateway size is related to potential strength just current strength. And there are modifying factors, such as type of weave, first learned limitation,. use of angreal or linking.

greatwolf
02-26-2012, 07:44 AM
Let me add that deducing strength from the age of characters their apparent appearance is going to be tasking and messy. And likely we'll be wrong about some of them when the encyclopedia comes out. For one thing, we'll be judging from how one old one character judges another (who has slowed) to be.

I hope we can add the men directly to the list where the stand compared to the women rather than making mutually exclusive lists.

Seeker
02-26-2012, 12:13 PM
The most interesting question for me is "Can men and women be measured on the same scale?" Is strength in saidin equivalent to strength in saidar?

Also, I don't really think strength is the power is as big a factor for combat as you might think. Most one on one duels would involve a narrow range of weaves that anyone with Moiraine's original strength could cast. Fireballs, throwing things with air, binding the other person or sending them flying. Defensive barriers woven of Air or Fire (to counter incoming attacks). All of these are things that mid-level channelers have demonstrated proficiency with.

The only time strength becomes an issue is with shielding. And even then, the fact that both characters are entering the fight holding the source would mitigate most of the stronger person's advantage.


I really want to see a male vs female fight in the last battle. I was really stoked for Egwene vs Aran'gar (technically a male in terms of using the Power) but she died in the most useless way.

Kimon
02-26-2012, 12:23 PM
Linda at the 13th Depository has a thorough analysis on this.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

greatwolf
02-26-2012, 05:47 PM
Also, I don't really think strength is the power is as big a factor for combat as you might think.


Yes it is. We have multiple references from the forsaken about how strength determines so much among them, not least the mad scramble for angreal and terangreal when they were freed. Even if it didn't matter, it would be nice to know. But i'll give you this from RJ:


For Sidious, when Alivia faced Cyndane, Alivia was by far the stronger because of her angreal, and had various tools (ter'angreal) to work with besides, but Cyndane was much, much more knowledgeable about channeling. Alivia, after all, knew relatively little except how to be a weapon. That was very useful in the situation, but in this case, knowledge versus strength made it an even match


Most one on one duels would involve a narrow range of weaves that anyone with Moiraine's original strength could cast. Fireballs, throwing things with air, binding the other person or sending them flying. Defensive barriers woven of Air or Fire (to counter incoming attacks). All of these are things that mid-level channelers have demonstrated proficiency with.

The only time strength becomes an issue is with shielding. And even then, the fact that both characters are entering the fight holding the source would mitigate most of the stronger person's advantage.



Actually strength affects a lot of things like who weaves faster, number of weaves you can hold and even the dexterity at weaving! All this might be made to count in a battle or duel! But of course, we all know that an arrow can kill as well as a bullet. Battle will be battle.


The most interesting question for me is "Can men and women be measured on the same scale?" Is strength in saidin equivalent to strength in saidar?

RJ answered this and its in the link that Kimon gave at the 13th depository. But there are a whole lot of other things i'm considering here. I've always wondered if what nyn was about Logain's strength and i've read and reread her shielding of him in LoC to find definite proof but I'm not sure.

He had not attempted to struggle at all, but that could be because he had known from the first that she would only snare him. It could. But how hard had he tried to break through her shield? That push, not exactly slow in building but certainly not fast. Almost like a man stretching muscles long unused, pushing at something not with the intent of moving it but just from the need to feel those muscles again. The thought turned her belly to ice.

Could Logain have broken the shield? We know that Logain is close behind Rand now in raw strength, and if nyn can hold Logain then she should be able to hold Rand or be close to him in strength. Which shouldn't be if Rand had LTT's strength.

That would be most revealing and I suspect it is true nevertheless. It would mean that Rand has a strength different from LTT or that the same sex link(s) affects his strength in the OP.i.e he can't draw as much as he could because of the links! Perhaps also protecting him from burnout.


@Kimon, thanks for the link. I think it would be nice for everyone to see it or can it be posted here for discussion? However, i think its rather insufficient though i'm not yet through with it. And the whole point of this is that it should be (1) collaborative (2) it will eventually link strength to age and slowing and gateway size to provide more detail. And possibly more accuracy.
(3) these things ought to be discussed. you'll be amazed what TLers can come up with and i've seen enough of linda's post to know that there'll be disgreement.

I'll ask a couple immediately.

(a)why place Sharina at par with Graendal? We have no idea how much she has gained and its semirhage, not Graendal who seemed to be in competition with Lanfear, always in black to lanfear's white.

In truth, more than amusing herself, she was avoiding conversation with her companion. Semirhage sat doing needlework in a high-backed chair covered in red tapestry, long slender fingers deftly making minuscule stitches to form a labyrinthine pattern of tiny flowers. It was always a surprise that the woman liked an activity so... ordinary. Her black dress was a sharp contrast against the chair. Not even Demandred dared suggest to Semirhage’s face that she wore black so often because Lanfear wore white.
For the thousandth time Mesaana tried to analyze why she felt uncomfortable around the other woman. Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses, with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points, and where she did not, she had other strengths to lay against weaknesses in Semirhage. It was not that.


And Graendal herself wondered if Semirhage was the strongest of the threesome in tGS. I think Rand's thoughts on the forsaken in LoC also placed semi first on the list.

E: Also nyn was about equivalent to Suian in tGH. and then to Moghedien in TSR. I think that means that Moghedien may not be too far above Suian's level. Perhaps she's cadsuane's level or at best Fgwene's. But this is opinion and not fact.

greatwolf
02-26-2012, 06:43 PM
Consider the example of Alosia, the oldest kin. If we assume that the oath rod reduces lifespan by half, and that the strongest AS do not live more than 300 years, than Alosia would be as strong as Cadsuane (less than 300) or stronger. So she would be on the list. The same arguement goes for Mora of the aiel. If she's still referred to as "young" at 300, then at a guess she'll be expected clock seven to nine hundred years! That would put her above cadsuane at the least and likely above Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha as well!

E: please note that most kin are tower trained. And we know that noone stronger than Cadsuane has been in the WT for a thousand years. So Alosia may not be as strong as we expect, or there's some other explanation.

Kimon
02-26-2012, 07:14 PM
Linda's assessment seems pretty accurate to me, if I may suggest, if you really want to make a channeling strength chart, make on for saidin-users. I don't think anyone has made one of those yet - through Brandon said he was given the official version of strength levels when he took over the project. Nonetheless, a saidin-level chart would be likely of more interest to the general TL types.

I'd imagine you could start with something along the lines of -

Rand
Moridin
Demandred
Taim & Logain
Narishma & Flinn
Sandomere

Unfortunately after that it would get more ambiguous, but certainly there is enough in the books to at least make reasonable assumptions backed up by quotes - which I'm to lazy and busy to attempt.

fdsaf3
02-26-2012, 07:24 PM
This is an interesting, albeit played out, line of inquiry. Personally, I used to find this a very interesting topic to discuss until I read a quote from RJ that fans put more stock in OP power than he did.

I'm not suggesting this is a stupid conversation or anything like that, so don't take it personally.

Sei'taer
02-26-2012, 08:55 PM
This is an interesting, albeit played out, line of inquiry. Personally, I used to find this a very interesting topic to discuss until I read a quote from RJ that fans put more stock in OP power than he did.

I'm not suggesting this is a stupid conversation or anything like that, so don't take it personally.

There are probably 20 discussions like this in the archives. Maybe a few more or a few less. Hard to say because they mix inwith the who's the better fighter and who's the better general threads.

Davian93
02-26-2012, 09:47 PM
I would put money Moridin and LTT/Rand being basically equal in strength for a couple reasons:

1. Two greatest men of the AoL
2. Natural balance between Light and Shadow's respective champions and the theme of balance that RJ plays on so many, many times.
3. LTT was only able to stop him at the gates of Paaran Disen, not capture/kill him.

Overall, I think it would come down to luck & guile if there was a true OP battle between the two.


Someone will surely bring up the multiple Ishy/Rand battles in the early books but something to remember there is that Ishy wasn't necessarily trying to kill Rand but rather turn him to his own purposes so its hard to say if those outcomes are legit...and Rand had Callandor for the battle in the Stone/TAR.

The Angry Druid
02-26-2012, 10:34 PM
RJ kept the male Forsaken strength rather vague on purpose, and many statements seem contradictory.

Also, on should remember, when discussion the most powerful Forsaken, power in that context may not equate to OP strength.

Both the dexterity (both in terms of speed and precision) could be a huge factor in who wins a OP duel. And a channeler could have particular strengths or Talents that could alter the outcome, like the Kin who could hold a shield on Nynaeve w/ barely being able to channel, or the fact that Asmo can't break through a shield. Or Lanfear's skill in being able to sever male weaves she can't see. Or damane's experience with violent weaves giving them a huge advantage over AS who may actually have more strength.

Lastly, a person may have other Talents unrelated to the OP that make them more feared/powerful. Lanfer's ability to watch others unseen in T'A'R comes to mind. Or the ability to read residues, or possibly even read Compulsion (as Graendal feared Nyneave could do). Or the talents may be in the personality of the channeler. One could be strong in the OP, but maybe not as strong a personality (Aginor), or the reverse (Sorilea).

There is a lot more than strength that goes into deciding how dangerous or powerful a person can be.

Still, Dr. Saidin at the 13th did have some thoughts.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

fionwe1987
02-26-2012, 11:59 PM
RJ answered this and its in the link that Kimon gave at the 13th depository. But there are a whole lot of other things i'm considering here. I've always wondered if what nyn was about Logain's strength and i've read and reread her shielding of him in LoC to find definite proof but I'm not sure.



Could Logain have broken the shield? We know that Logain is close behind Rand now in raw strength, and if nyn can hold Logain then she should be able to hold Rand or be close to him in strength. Which shouldn't be if Rand had LTT's strength.[/ quote]
Why shouldn't it be so? As per Brandon, there are only six women stronger than Nynaeve, and we already knew she was in the upper echelons of female Forsaken strength. Since a shield can be held by someone weaker than you, and Nyneave was not even at her peak strength when she shielded and bound Logain, it stands to reason Nyneave at full strength would be able to shield LTT.
[quote]

And Graendal herself wondered if Semirhage was the strongest of the threesome in tGS. I think Rand's thoughts on the forsaken in LoC also placed semi first on the list.

Firstly, Graendal had no problems directly challenging Lanfear in the beginning of tFoH. For another, Brandon said Semirhage was weaker than, or at best as strong as Nyneave, yet Nyn is average female forsaken strength per RJ. She can't be a average female forsaken strength if she's as strong as the second strongest if them right?

So, the conventional wisdom has always been:

Lanfear
Cyndane, Alivia, maybe Sharina
Graendal, maybe Sharina,
Nyneave, Semirhage, maybe Mesaana.




Also nyn was about equivalent to Suian in tGH. and then to Moghedien in TSR. I think that means that Moghedien may not be too far above Suian's level. Perhaps she's cadsuane's level or at best Fgwene's. But this is opinion and not fact.
It is incorrect opinion. Nynaeve was forced during this period, which is why she jumped so much in strength.

fionwe1987
02-27-2012, 12:08 AM
Also, using ages of to infer strength is silly. Romanda is as old as Cadsuane, yet there's a decent strength difference between them. We don't even know how much of an effect strength in the Power has on age, or how exactly the Oath Rod affects this.

Gateway size is also a silly measure. For one, fewer women seem to be able to make one at all. For another, channelers don't have to use their full strength to make their largest gateway. Then there's the fact that its a Talent, so some like Androl can make far larger Gateways than their strengths would suggest.

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 12:40 AM
Also, using ages of to infer strength is silly. Romanda is as old as Cadsuane, yet there's a decent strength difference between them. We don't even know how much of an effect strength in the Power has on age, or how exactly the Oath Rod affects this.

Gateway size is also a silly measure. For one, fewer women seem to be able to make one at all. For another, channelers don't have to use their full strength to make their largest gateway. Then there's the fact that its a Talent, so some like Androl can make far larger Gateways than their strengths would suggest.
While we are in agreement that age is frivolous, Gateway size does not seem to be, the only known exception being Androl.

And it seems to be relatively common knowledge, so I can only conclude that (since absolute potential is seldom secret, except theoretically amongst the men) it has a high correlation to potential.

I recall a quote from I think Rand, on Asmodean's teachings, claiming as much. And from KoD 19, Vows:
“A Deathgate,” Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. “Why are you still holding the Power?” he asked suddenly. “And so much. If you’re trying to show me that you’re stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I’d say you’re holding every drop of saidin that you can safely.”

fionwe1987
02-27-2012, 01:02 AM
While we are in agreement that age is frivolous, Gateway size does not seem to be, the only known exception being Androl.

And it seems to be relatively common knowledge, so I can only conclude that (since absolute potential is seldom secret, except theoretically amongst the men) it has a high correlation to potential.

I recall a quote from I think Rand, on Asmodean's teachings, claiming as much. And from KoD 19, Vows:

Not really. If we take Gateway size to be a measure of strength, then explain how Rand can make six gateways of his maximum size at once.

There's also the fact that Rand could make gateways just as big even when he wasn't at full strength.

Most conclusively, there's this:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

That's proof enough that OP strength has nothing much to do with gateway sizes.

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 01:33 AM
I'm not sure that quote says what you think it does...
The amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, sure. But maximum Gateway size is a function of absolute potential. And the size of Gateways is directly related to their making.

I'm fairly sure this is just below canon. It is close enough that many theories concerning Androl have him as a powerful channeler with a significant block.

fionwe1987
02-27-2012, 01:41 AM
I'm not sure that quote says what you think it does...
The amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, sure. But maximum Gateway size is a function of absolute potential. And the size of Gateways is directly related to their making.

I'm fairly sure this is just below canon. It is close enough that many theories concerning Androl have him as a powerful channeler with a significant block.

Can you produce anything resembling a quote to prove the bolded part? "I believe so" doesn't quite cut it, especially when a direct quote says otherwise.

And Androl has a block? Since when?

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 03:01 AM
Can you produce anything resembling a quote to prove the bolded part? "I believe so" doesn't quite cut it, especially when a direct quote says otherwise.
All in good time...I'm still getting the hang of the new database. I will say that I am almost certain that Androl is the only known exception to this rule. And since men don't advertise their current potential like women do...a block is a reasonable hypothesis.

Did you even read my KoD quote? Logain strongly implies that Rand holding his maximum is redundant for proving his strength.
And Androl has a block? Since when?
I thought I only said it was a popular theory. The fact is that we don't have a lot of information on Androl. Maybe he has a block, maybe not. Maybe you should flip through one of the Androl threads.

fionwe1987
02-27-2012, 03:23 AM
All in good time...I'm still getting the hang of the new database. I will say that I am almost certain that Androl is the only known exception to this rule. And since men don't advertise their current potential like women do...a block is a reasonable hypothesis.
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have. So no, not a reasonable hypothesis.

Did you even read my KoD quote? Logain strongly implies that Rand holding his maximum is redundant for proving his strength.[/ quote]
And Logain is an OP expert whose word is more believable than Asmodean's?

[quote]
I thought I only said it was a popular theory. The fact is that we don't have a lot of information on Androl. Maybe he has a block, maybe not. Maybe you should flip through one of the Androl threads.
Not interested in reading about an impossible block afflicting a tertiary character.

Incidentally, what do you make of Berowyn, a woman not strong enough to become Aes Sedai, but able to shield Nyneave with ease? Does she have a block too?

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 03:53 AM
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have. So no, not a reasonable hypothesis.

...

Incidentally, what do you make of Berowyn, a woman not strong enough to become Aes Sedai, but able to shield Nyneave with ease? Does she have a block too?
You seem awfully comfortable accepting the collective wisdom of Blocks, while at the same time rejecting the same sort of reasoning surrounding shielding and Gateways.

Who can say what a block is, really? Or a wilder? The Wise Ones do not seem to have blocks, but they are wilders in a traditional sense. Egwene is a wilder to some AS (she began channeling outside the Tower), but she seems to have no blocks. Aviendha appears to be the most talented female channeler alive, and has never set foot in the WT.

What if the hand motions that are necessary for certain Aes Sedai are a sort of block? I don't think we really have enough data to say otherwise. Perhaps Androl's block is a sort of 'he can't channel strongly if he *whatever*' as opposed to the traditional 'he can't channel at all.' But his potential is unchanged, and so is his Gateway size. The same may go for Berowyn, or perhaps her case is different. But in any case, both Gateway size and shielding potential seem to be at least correlated with absolute potential. So using both to create a list such as this seems reasonable.
And Logain is an OP expert whose word is more believable than Asmodean's?
More believable? Probably not. But as I said before, the quotes don't contradict each other at all. You seem to be taking principles of the Skimming Space and applying it to Gateways themselves.

And Logain's word doesn't seem to demand as much skepticism as you think. He's been around a lot of channeling. Unless you think the greater part of his students have been masking their potentials just to screw with him. A general rule of thumb in literature is 'no sentence is without purpose.' While the obvious corrolary is that 'nothing necessarily means what we think it does', what exactly do you think the point of Logain's line was? To show he was insane?

and you're the one accusing me of making overly large leaps.
Not interested in reading about an impossible block afflicting a tertiary character.
That's a shame. They were interesting discussions. I revised a few of my own beliefs after reading them, and I don't give a crap about Androl. Berowyn was discussed too. But I am a naturally curious guy. I am a Theorylander (but I have no need to repeat myself).

greatwolf
02-27-2012, 09:07 AM
RJ kept the male Forsaken strength rather vague on purpose, and many statements seem contradictory.

Also, on should remember, when discussion the most powerful Forsaken, power in that context may not equate to OP strength.

Both the dexterity (both in terms of speed and precision) could be a huge factor in who wins a OP duel. And a channeler could have particular strengths or Talents that could alter the outcome...

...Lastly, a person may have other Talents unrelated to the OP that make them more feared/powerful. Lanfer's ability to watch others unseen in T'A'R comes to mind...

...http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html



I have to mostly agree with your position. In fact RJ's comment on strength is likely borne out of the same thing: he probably wanted to avoid giving the impression that strength is everything, and I agree.

But it still counts. Its important enough. And as I said earlier, its simply good to know. If a relatively weak channeler thumps a stronger, it adds to the understanding of what you're reading if you happen to understand just what factors the author relied on to bring about that outcome.

It might be as simple as taveren luck, or oath rod induced mental retardation, :) or some other factor that decides the battle, but for me, ignorance is not bliss.



Rand
Moridin
Demandred
Taim & Logain
Narishma & Flinn
Sandomere


Actually I think its best to consider Rand and LTT as two separate entities for this purpose just as I rated Lanfear and Cyndane separately though I believe them to be the same person.

The reasons are obvious. If LTT is Rand as some used to claim, has he gained all of LTT's strength? Does one have the same strength in OP every time he's spun out by the wheel?

Two, how will Rand's strength be affected by the link to Moridin? Will it be like being in a circle? Where he cannot overdraw and cannot draw as much as he could otherwise? Is that why he didn't overdraw at the eye while Aginor died? What of the other links between him and Mat and Perrin? Will it affect his strength? Or even the link between Rand and LTT himself?

Three, if Rand and LTT are separate entities, and we assume LTT burned out at dragonmount, then both men are dependent on Rand's strength which may not be anywhere near LTT's. And we still have to factor the same sex links into it!

So to avoid arguement, I'm proposing judging both men separately. LTT is as strong as possible. Rand, IMO, is growing and at present is forsaken class. Or at least stronger than nyn. Rand's gateways were larger than Egwene's as of LoC, so I think I can assume that for the moment.

However the list likely would be more like this:

1. Lews Therin

2. Ishamael

3. Lanfear?

4. Aginor?

5. One of Belal /Beltamal(Arangar) /Demandred /Rahvin /Sammael /Rand /Taim.

Aginor is stated to be close behind LTT and Ishamael in the bwb. But how close? And why? Simply close in raw OP strength? We know that Demandred acts as if he was more powerful. Perhaps that is because of Demandred's skills and talents. And Aginor might not want to risk open confrontation with someone as strong as Demandred, choosing instead to rely on other means such as the Gholam.

Personally I've always doubted that Aginor just created all those shadowspawn out of scientific curiosity alone, though RJ does paint him as the mad scientist type. But mad scientist sometimes have big ambitions as well. And Aginor/Dashiva demonstrated his at the battle of shadar logoth.

Among the remaining male forsaken, its likely that they're close enough to each other that the difference wouldn't count except in the most superficial way. Their tactical prowess or lack of it, skills and any wild card they may be holding will likely play a bigger role in who wins than actual strength.

Having said that, i think that Balthamel?Arangar was probably next in raw strength but Demandred the most powerful after Ishamael.

After Balthamael may have been Belal:

he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael,

And then Demandred.

As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!

greatwolf
02-27-2012, 09:24 AM
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have

Actually, he is the ultimate wilder! All the students at the BT learn on their own. Except the ones that Taim has in his classes. Many may have developed blocks in training. Afterall who's there to tell what's wrong and what's right?

Androl does everything through the use of gateways. And manages a precision with gateways that even stronger channelers like Logain may be hard pressed to match.

And the rule about gateways wasn't made up by anyone. Its in the books and hasn't been countered anywhere that I know of.

Why shouldn't it be so? As per Brandon, there are only six women stronger than Nynaeve, and we already knew she was in the upper echelons of female Forsaken strength

Could you provide the quotes? I think they would be helpful.

GonzoTheGreat
02-27-2012, 09:33 AM
As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!
Of course, it is entirely unclear whether Nynaeve could actually have held Logain if he had really wanted to try to fight his way out of a town full of AS.

If he had been willing to try that, then he could have pushed her to the max by straining to break through the shield, and then throttled her with his bare hands. If she'd let up with the OP, he could have grasped saidin and killed her that way, if she didn't, his greater physical strength would suffice.

But then he would have been in rather a lot of trouble, so instead he tried a different, more subtle, approach. Which, you may remember, actually worked. Egwene did the decent thing then, while all the other AS were dithering.

greatwolf
02-27-2012, 09:52 AM
Of course, it is entirely unclear whether Nynaeve could actually have held Logain if he had really wanted to try to fight his way out of a town full of AS.


That's only a part of what makes it a difficult call, Gonzo. How good is nyn at shielding? Truth is, the only absolute thing that this tells us is that Logain would likely be better at breaking a shield than Moghedien. Or that he is stronger than Moghedien. Not much more is certain. But if little pointers are what we can get, then we'll use it and see what comes of it after bwbII.

Do you where i can a description of the size of Rand's gateways?

E: also iirc RJ said that a woman had to be much stronger to hold a man, not just being a raw match in OP strength, but i'm unsure.

suttree
02-27-2012, 11:06 AM
Actually, he is the ultimate wilder! All the students at the BT learn on their own. Except the ones that Taim has in his classes. Many may have developed blocks in training. Afterall who's there to tell what's wrong and what's right?

Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught. We see it happening.

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 11:37 AM
Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught. We see it happening.
Somehow I think the curriculum at the BT is too 'new' for it to automatically avoid producing wilders. I mean, were the Daughters of Silence not wilders just because there were 'teachers?'

I agree that 'special classes' probably doesn't mean what gw says it does, but I think Androl's story is still vague enough that he may very well be a wilder in the traditional sense (independent of whether the BT can really teach well enough to not produce some anyway)

GonzoTheGreat
02-27-2012, 11:43 AM
It depends on how you define "wilder".

If you take the strict definition (anyone not trained in the WT), then they are all wilders. As are all WOs, Windfinders and damane.

If you take a more sensible definition (anyone self taught), then most in the BT would not be wilders.

Either way, they could develop blocks. That happens to actual Novices in the WT too, after all.

Zombie Sammael
02-27-2012, 11:46 AM
Somehow I think the curriculum at the BT is too 'new' for it to automatically avoid producing wilders. I mean, were the Daughters of Silence not wilders just because there were 'teachers?'

I agree that 'special classes' probably doesn't mean what gw says it does, but I think Androl's story is still vague enough that he may very well be a wilder in the traditional sense (independent of whether the BT can really teach well enough to not produce some anyway)

It really seems to come down to what your definition of a Wilder is. If you think "Wilder" means anyone not trained by the White Tower (as most AS do), then all Asha'man are wilders - as are Aiel Wise One Channellers, Windfinders, Kin, and even Damane. If you use the more traditional definition of wilder (which is also slightly less pejorative) meaning "self-taught", then the Asha'man are in more of a grey area. There's definitely a degree of working it out as they go along and a number of "acceptable losses" by way of burn-out, etc, but they're not teaching themselves, from scratch, how to touch the source, which is what I think the second definition of "wilder" means. I also don't think the Daughters of Silence were wilders in that second sense.

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 11:51 AM
If you take the strict definition (anyone not trained in the WT), then they are all wilders.

If you think "Wilder" means anyone not trained by the White Tower (as most AS do), then all Asha'man are wilders

lol.

Thanks. I was less interested in 'what constitutes a wilder' than in the nature of blocks themselves. Which, as Gonzo pointed out, can happen to anyone, not just wilders. Even though it may be more common amongst the self-taught.

AbbeyRoad
02-27-2012, 06:33 PM
Is that why he didn't overdraw at the eye while Aginor died?
According to popular belief, Rand and Moridin did not become linked until his battle with Sammael, so the link is almost certainly not the reason Rand failed to overdraw.

What of the other links between him and Mat and Perrin?
There is no evidence whatsoever I've encountered that his ta'veren link affects his channeling ability/potential.

Will it affect his strength? Or even the link between Rand and LTT himself?
Rand is LTT reborn, meaning the Dragon soul reincarnated. There is no "link" between them, besides the fact that they are different incarnations of the same soul.

Three, if Rand and LTT are separate entities, and we assume LTT burned out at dragonmount, then both men are dependent on Rand's strength which may not be anywhere near LTT's.
I don't follow... First of all, is LTT still a 'man'? Secondly, why would LTT be dependent on Rand's strength in any fashion? He died years ago. And even if you are inexplicably somehow still a "real'er" the personality is now integrated with Rand anyways as of ToM.

So to avoid arguement, I'm proposing judging both men separately. LTT is as strong as possible. Rand, IMO, is growing and at present is forsaken class. Or at least stronger than nyn. Rand's gateways were larger than Egwene's as of LoC, so I think I can assume that for the moment.
Except that there have been dozens of accounts in the books of the Forsaken listing Rand's strength as "as strong as any." Lanfear says on one instance that (paraphrasing) Rand is LTT reborn, and LTT was as strong as anyone (implying that Rand is, as well). He matched up evenly in the Power with Rahvin in book 5, grew stronger and matched up with Sammael later, and has grown considerably stronger since. It seems fairly obvious that the only channeler to whom we've been introduced that can match Rand's raw strength is Moridin. Didn't you see Rand dispatch of that entire army of shadowspawn in ToM? There's no one as strong as Rand in the series, with the possible exception of Moridin.

Aginor is stated to be close behind LTT and Ishamael in the bwb. But how close? And why? Simply close in raw OP strength? We know that Demandred acts as if he was more powerful. Perhaps that is because of Demandred's skills and talents.
The BWB describes Aginor as third in the Power to LTT and Moridin. He is not a dominant personality, and perhaps not as skilled in combat as Sammael and Demandred, but it is explicitly stated he is stronger than both in raw power.

Having said that, i think that Balthamel?Arangar was probably next in raw strength but Demandred the most powerful after Ishamael.
Sammael is described as more powerful than Balthamel, but probably less so than Demandred and Aginor.

As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!
Logain is at least a level below Rand; he admitted as much after seeing Rand's deathgates. Also, Nynaeve is nowhere near as strong as Logain. It is much easier to maintain a shield already in place than to shield someone who is holding the power; and she had immense struggle just maintaining the shield. Also, Rand has grown stronger in the Power since Logain admitted Rand was stronger than he, while Logain, having channeled for a considerably longer period of time, has not.

1. Lews Therin

2. Ishamael

3. Lanfear?

4. Aginor?

5. One of Belal /Beltamal(Arangar) /Demandred /Rahvin /Sammael /Rand /Taim.

If I were to make a list of top tier male strength, it would be:

1. Rand/Moridin/LTT/Ishamael
2. Aginor/Demandred (with Demandred slightly weaker, but on the same tier)
3. Sammael/Be'lal (possibly; the Guide is ambiguous)
4. Rahvin/Balthamel/Taim/Logain
5. Asmodean

Rand is, IMO, obviously up with Moridin at the top. He is the Chosen of the Light, the Dragon soul, and born to be as strong as one can be. Ishamael we know was comparably strong with LTT.

Aginor, as listed by the Guide is the #2 Forsaken in the Power. That doesn't mean he would beat all the others in a confrontation, but he is immensely strong in raw Power. However, Demandred and Sammael, both immensely powerful in their own right, seem to be much more skilled in combat. Demandred was described as just below LTT in strength and skill, which means he is probably relatively comparable to Aginor in raw power.

Sammael is described as the next most powerful, and Be'lal is so ambiguously listed (and described in the books only very briefly) to warrant a place anywhere on tiers 3-5 in my opinion.

Taim and Logain have been set up as opposite poles in the BT (similar to the Rand/Moridin dynamic), and so it only makes sense that they have comparable strength levels. Rand was about as strong as Rahvin in book 5 (before becoming stronger and matching Sammael in book 7), and Rahvin and Balthamel seem to be hovering around similar power levels at the lower end of Forsaken male strength). And, of course, Asmodean is the weakest of the male Forsaken.

I think it's impossible to put Lanfear (or any woman) on this list, as we have no way whatsoever of comparing male to female strength (or dexterity of weaving).

The Angry Druid
02-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Interesting discussion, and I will weigh in on a couple points, FWIW (if anything).

First, I don't put a lot of stock in Gateway size or the ability to hold some one as an indicator of strength. Too many other factors can alter it.

For the latter, we've seen that a channeler who lacked the strength to be Aes Sedai could hold a shield on Nynaeve (she even said it was almost a Talent with her) and Lanfear's comments on Asmodean's inability to break down a shield because he isn't good at accepting pain, despite the fact he is quite strong, as channelers go.

In terms of the former, we have Androl. Again, hardly any strength, but very t(T)alented at making gateways. Plus, though I don't have it handy, didn't Rand once say he tried to make gateways bigger to accommodate all the Aiel, but the size was always just about the same? Or was that the size of the skimming platform? Or was it Avi or Elayne? Even it was the platform, it is kind of the same thing and points to gateway size NOT directly correlating to OP strength.

Yes, it can be indicative, but there are so many other factors involved (talent of wielder, size on first making) that in any particular instance, we can't be sure.

In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.

And I'd again reiterate the danger of using quotes saying the X Forsaken was the most powerful, most dangerous, or the like to OP strength. For instance, Egwene is much more dangerous than Nynaeve. About the only way Nynaeve could defeat Eggy would be in an OP duel, otherwise, Eggy just has to wait for Nyneave to go to sleep, pull her into T'A'R and snuff her out. Bair or Amys could do the same thing to Eggy prior to her training, if they were so inclined. And from 1000's of miles away without putting themselves in danger. Far more dangerous and powerful in my book, yet weaker in the OP.

The Unreasoner
02-28-2012, 03:23 AM
Interesting discussion, and I will weigh in on a couple points, FWIW (if anything).
Worth more than you know.
First, I don't put a lot of stock in Gateway size or the ability to hold some one as an indicator of strength. Too many other factors can alter it.
Well. This may be a fair point, but it is both overthinking the issue and not thinking it through enough.

For the overthinking:
This is a rough list, an attempt to quantify something that may or may not be overly important. And shielding power and Gateway size have proven to have a high correlation to potential. The existence of a few exceptions are not evidence against correlation. So, using both is perfectly acceptable for this rough list.

Now for the underthinking:
You don't look very deep into these exceptions. Maybe you're right, and we should just take them at face value, but...maybe not.
For the latter, we've seen that a channeler who lacked the strength to be Aes Sedai could hold a shield on Nynaeve (she even said it was almost a Talent with her)
Maybe it was a Talent with her. Or maybe her shields are in some way qualitatively different. Maybe both (ie, the Talent to produce nontraditional shields).
and Lanfear's comments on Asmodean's inability to break down a shield because he isn't good at accepting pain, despite the fact he is quite strong, as channelers go.
Well, this is really an entirely different case. This so-called shield was most certainly qualitatively different (Asmodean could actually still channel).
In terms of the former, we have Androl. Again, hardly any strength, but very t(T)alented at making gateways.
Hardly any displayed strength. Men are not like women in this respect: potential is almost impossible to know unless the channeler takes hold of his maximum (or, as is shown to almost always be the case, he weaves a maximum-size Gateway).
Plus, though I don't have it handy, didn't Rand once say he tried to make gateways bigger to accommodate all the Aiel, but the size was always just about the same? Or was that the size of the skimming platform? Or was it Avi or Elayne?
It was Rand. fionwe posted the quote. And it was the platform.
Even it was the platform, it is kind of the same thing and points to gateway size NOT directly correlating to OP strength.
It is not the same thing at all. Gateway size is directly related to their making. The Power is highly involved in their making. You may not need to channel all of your Power to create your maximum gateway, and you may be able to create multiple full-size Gateways simultaneously, but all evidence save Androl points to Gateway size being a direct function of potential.

You should reread that passage. The platform is far more similar to creation in TAR. Just look at Nynaeve's palaces and trees, you'll see the similarities. And the comment about the Power having little to do with Gateways is quite clearly referring to the nature of the Skimming space.
In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.

You seem quite sure of that last. Although I agree with the note on wilders, I think you are oversimplifying blocks.

Hand waving, not being able to channel unless angry, can't embrace the Source unless eyes are closed, or if the channeler is in the presence of guy...these are phenomena that we have heard of. It sounds an awful lot like neurology and psychology. On a profound level.

You say it doesn't make sense to you. Let me give it a try:
What if Androl's 'block' is simply that he can't channel strongly if he lacks confidence (or is wearing a black coat)? I put 'block' in quotes because I consider the 'hand-waving' to be a sort of block as well. If you want to go black/white on this, that's fine: let hand-waving be an impairment. Maybe Androl has a sort of impairment as well. What is it specifically? I'm not sure, but if it's true, I can see why we wouldn't know the specifics yet, as they might be too spoilery.

Or maybe Androl is just really Talented. And the Creator has a sense of humor (a guy who loves to travel can only Travel).

greatwolf
02-28-2012, 03:55 AM
Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught.



And just what would you call someone trained by a wilder?

“What you can tell him is all I know,” Logain replied. “Mistress al’Meara didn’t tell me much of what she was doing, and I could only learn bits and pieces listening to the other sisters talk. Just keep planting the seed and hope something grows. It’s all you can do.” Several other men nodded along with Genhald.

Simply put, they're being taught by people who are feeling the way themselves. Its as informal as learning can get. Remember also, that men who can channel are still reviled. Wanting to learn means wanting to an object of revulsion. It won't be easy on the pysche. That might increase the number of blocks.

And since their teachers don't know anything about blocks, who's to say the place isn't full of blocked wilders?


Yes, it can be indicative, but there are so many other factors involved (talent of wielder, size on first making) that in any particular instance, we can't be sure.

In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.


I think we can be reasonably sure. If 500-1000 men live together and they're continuously making gates, then they ought to know by now if gateway size has anything to do with strength. What they may be unaware of is if there are ways to make a gateway smaller than its absolute size. We don't how how much they've experimented on this or how well.

And for the other, I think its a reasonable theory as any I've heard on why androl can do what he does. I'm certain that RJ wanted things this way though. Moiraine talked of limitations of travelling as far back as EotW. But its also likely that it will be possible to make small gateways say to put a hand through for a brief period.


According to popular belief, Rand and Moridin did not become linked until his battle with Sammael, so the link is almost certainly not the reason Rand failed to overdraw.


Of course, but Rand must have had the link to Mat and Perrin before that. Unless you have some explanation as to where they could have been linked?

There is no evidence whatsoever I've encountered that his ta'veren link affects his channeling ability/potential.


You probably skimmed some posts. There are reasons why I'm examining this possibility. One is nyn holding Logain by herself. The other is the number of men that are close to Rand in strength. If Rand had achieved LTT's potential, there's likely to be very very few people capable of coming close to him. We have that from RJ's comments on a bell curve for channeling strength.


Rand is LTT reborn, meaning the Dragon soul reincarnated. There is no "link" between them, besides the fact that they are different incarnations of the same soul.


No I'm not going there. Hold onto it.

I don't follow... First of all, is LTT still a 'man'? Secondly, why would LTT be dependent on Rand's strength in any fashion? He died years ago. And even if you are inexplicably somehow still a "real'er" the personality is now integrated with Rand anyways as of ToM.



What matters to this thread is that Rand is not as strong as LTT was for now. Maybe later, but definitely not yet.


Except that there have been dozens of accounts in the books of the Forsaken listing Rand's strength as "as strong as any." Lanfear says on one instance that (paraphrasing) Rand is LTT reborn, and LTT was as strong as anyone (implying that Rand is, as well). He matched up evenly in the Power with Rahvin in book 5, grew stronger and matched up with Sammael later, and has grown considerably stronger since.


as you said, he's been getting stronger. Meaning he may still be getting stronger. And no certainity that he will match LTT of the aol. The forsaken are transmigrated full strength. But not Rand/LTT. So until we find out he's stronger in raw strength than Ishamael, then we can say he's got LTT's strength.

Lanfear was definitely saying what she wanted them to hear. If she thought he wasn't at full strength, she wouldn't allow them to know of it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2012, 04:37 AM
Simply put, they're being taught by people who are feeling the way themselves. Its as informal as learning can get. Remember also, that men who can channel are still reviled. Wanting to learn means wanting to an object of revulsion. It won't be easy on the pysche. That might increase the number of blocks.

And since their teachers don't know anything about blocks, who's to say the place isn't full of blocked wilders?
Once again I'm gonna have to ask for evidence. This time, I will ask for specific proof that Taim and the others in the BT do not know about blocks. The reason why I ask this is that the following passage suggests very strongly that Taim does know about them, and also knows at least one way of dealing with them:
Androl sighed. His belt knife was waiting at Cuellar's place for sharpening. Well, he thought, Taim does keep telling us to look for excuses to channel . . . Androl emptied himself of emotion, then seized the Source. It had been months since he'd had trouble doing that-at first, he'd been able to channel only when he was holding a strap of leather. The M'Hael had beaten that out of him. It had not been a pleasant process.



You probably skimmed some posts. There are reasons why I'm examining this possibility. One is nyn holding Logain by herself.
Here I'll once again, but more explicitly, ask for evidence that Nynaeve could actually have managed to hold Logain if Logain had really tried to break the shield.

Something pushed against the shield Nynaeve had fastened between Logain and the True Source, building until the shield began to bend and the weave trembled on the brink of ripping apart. She let saidar flow through her, sweetness reaching the very edge of pain, channeling every thread into Spirit, into the shield. "Go, Elayne!" She did not care one bit if it came out a squeal.
Elayne, the Light shine on her, wasted no time on questions. She bounded out of her chair and was gone at a dead run.
Logain had not moved a muscle. His eyes held Nynaeve’s; they seemed to shine. Light, he was big. She fumbled for her belt knife, realized how ridiculous that was – he could probably take it away from her without sweating a drop more than he already was; his shoulders suddenly seemed as wide as she was tall – and diverted some of her weave to Air, to bonds that fastened him right where he sat, arm and leg. He was still big, yet suddenly he looked more normal, entirely manageable. Only then did it occur to her that she had lessened the strength of the shield. But she could not channel a hair more; already the... the pure joy of life that was saidar was so strong in her that she nearly wanted to weep. He smiled at her.
The things to note here is that Nynaeve is close to her own breaking point, while Logain seems totally relaxed and not at all stressed. Now, it could be that Logain is putting on an act, that he too is doing all he can in this fight. But there's no actual indication of that, so it should not be our only, and probably not even our default, assumption.

Thus, what we have is the following:
When Nynaeve has Logain shielded, she has to use every scrap of her power to keep him from breaking free. When Logain is shielded by Nynaeve, he can push her to her utmost limit, and might be able to push harder still.

greatwolf
02-28-2012, 04:57 AM
Once again I'm gonna have to ask for evidence. This time, I will ask for specific proof that Taim and the others in the BT do not know about blocks.


I have no doubt that Taim does. But he doesn't teach everyone everything does he? Despite that, androl is still limited in what he can do. I think it may stem from the psyche. And as I've said, they have a lot weighing on them being ashaman. I'm not even sure they know/accept that the taint is cleansed or that they know they no longer need to be such objects of horror. And if they're still going to go mad, it will add to the psychological burden. A damaged/stressed psyche can result in many things IMO, especially a block.


Here I'll once again, but more explicitly, ask for evidence that Nynaeve could actually have managed to hold Logain if Logain had really tried to break the shield.


I'll repost what I said:

Truth is, the only absolute thing that this tells us is that Logain would likely be better at breaking a shield than Moghedien. Or that he is stronger than Moghedien. Not much more is certain

We are not sure if Logain was holding back. IIRC, RJ said a woman had to be much stronger than a man to hold him. Meaning if nyn was equivalent to Logain in raw strength, she might still not be able to hold him.

sleepinghour
02-28-2012, 05:06 AM
When Nynaeve has Logain shielded, she has to use every scrap of her power to keep him from breaking free. When Logain is shielded by Nynaeve, he can push her to her utmost limit, and might be able to push harder still.
The Nynaeve/Logain case doesn't tell us all that much since it happened back in LoC, and it's explicitly said that Nynaeve still hadn't reached her full strength as late as TPoD. Logain probably has, but we don't know for sure. Also:

TPOD Signing Report - Justin Howell (Paraphrased)

Justin Howell: I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.

Robert Jordan: The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand. As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

fionwe1987
02-28-2012, 05:36 AM
It was Rand. fionwe posted the quote. And it was the platform.


I'll get to more detailed replies later, but meanwhile, I'll thank you not to mis-quote what I post. That quote was clearly not about the skimming platform. Rand explicitly says it was about the size of his Gateway.

The Unreasoner
02-28-2012, 06:01 AM
I'll get to more detailed replies later, but meanwhile, I'll thank you not to mis-quote what I post. That quote was clearly not about the skimming platform. Rand explicitly says it was about the size of his Gateway.
Well, we'll see. In the interest of full disclosure:
Most conclusively, there's this:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

That's proof enough that OP strength has nothing much to do with gateway sizes.
Now I sincerely doubt that this is 'proof enough'. But the full quote makes the issue more clear:
The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight. Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
He stepped through onto what appeared to be a paving stone lifted from the courtyard, but here the gray square hung in the midst of utter darkness, with a sense that in every direction there was nothing. Nothing, forever. It was not like night. He could see himself and the stone perfectly. But everything else, everywhere else, was blackness.
It was time to see how large he could make a platform. With the thought, more stones appeared all at once, duplicating the courtyard to an inch. He imagined it larger still. That quickly, gray stone stretched as far as he could see. With a start, he realized that his boots were beginning to sink into the stone under his feet; it looked no different, yet it yielded slowly like mud, oozing up around his boots. Hastily, he brought everything back to a square the size of what was outside—that much stayed solid—then began increasing it by one outer row of stones at a time. It did not take long to realize he could not make the platform much larger than his first attempt. The stone still looked all right, it did not sink beneath his feet, but the second added row felt . . . insubstantial, like a thin shell that might crack at a wrong step. Was that because this was as large as the thing could be made? Or because he had not thought of it larger at first? We all make our limits. The thought slid up surprisingly from somewhere. And we set them further out than we have any right.

So, you were right, in a purely technical sense. But the 'limit' you referred to is incredibly nonspecific. Once we get more information, it becomes clear that the 'limit' is the channeler's potential. The underlined portion in your quote is pretty easily explained: the amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, but the amount that can be drawn is. Your bolded section I was correct in explaining earlier, as the rest of the quote makes clear.

AbbeyRoad
02-28-2012, 12:24 PM
as you said, he's been getting stronger. Meaning he may still be getting stronger. And no certainity that he will match LTT of the aol. The forsaken are transmigrated full strength. But not Rand/LTT. So until we find out he's stronger in raw strength than Ishamael, then we can say he's got LTT's strength.
Did you read the scene in ToM where Rand single-handedly and without the aid of an angreal wipes out more than 10,000 shadowspawn using dozens of powerful weaves simultaneously over an extended period of time? I haven't seen any of the Forsaken even come close to half of the power necessary for that display. I find it very hard to believe LTT could have been significantly stronger. That seemed to be an example of the maximum potential of unaided destructive channeling, in raw power, endurance, skill, and dexterity.

greatwolf
02-28-2012, 04:55 PM
Did you read the scene in ToM where Rand single-handedly and without the aid of an angreal wipes out more than 10,000 shadowspawn using dozens of powerful weaves simultaneously over an extended period of time? I haven't seen any of the Forsaken even come close to half of the power necessary for that display. I find it very hard to believe LTT could have been significantly stronger. That seemed to be an example of the maximum potential of unaided destructive channeling, in raw power, endurance, skill, and dexterity.


I'll reread the scene of course, but I remember then thinking the scene was incredibly short on detail. We don't what weaves, what the composition of the weaves were, and most importantly how much strength (raw power) was needed to make them.

Egwene was able to split her weave several ways while being dosed with forkroot, so that she was able to do things that stronger AS (they are stronger since she's under the influence of forkroot) couldn't match. So the display proves nothing.

greatwolf
02-28-2012, 05:48 PM
While we are in agreement that age is frivolous,


INTERVIEW: Oct 13th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Allen Bryan (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes, basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.


Frivolous I don't agree with but making sense of it is bound to be difficult. But slowing correlates with strength and can help us distinguish between channelers in some cases. Mora of the Aiel and Alosia are just two examples.

Edit: Sorilea seems to be an exception to the age rule. She seems to have extreme longevity due to factors other than slowing. Unless of course, she's Lanfear in disguise.

On strength, do we know who the strongest channelers are for each of the channeling groups? We know for the aiel and AS, but we don't know who the strongest damane, kin, windfinder or ayyad are. And there's the LoMM.

Alivia is the strongest damane we've encountered, but I don't expect her to be the strongest since she was sent with the forerunners. Tuon's sera might be stronger or one of those guarding the crystal throne itself.

Another help is the 21 point reference level RJ used. On this scale, RJ said there were at least male strength levels on top of the 21 female ones. Assuming that LTT and Ishamael were on the top level, there are still two strength levels for men above Lanfear. Possibly most of the male forsaken (six of them)could fit into these two levels.

If we consider, Asmodean to be the weakest, we could place him on the fourth level, at par with Lanfear and Sharina. Would that stop Lanfear from shielding him as she did? I think the effectiveness of the shield had more to do with the dexterity of the knot than its strength. IIRC, RJ did say that Asmodean could have broken if he could endure some pain.

fionwe1987
02-28-2012, 10:42 PM
You seem awfully comfortable accepting the collective wisdom of Blocks, while at the same time rejecting the same sort of reasoning surrounding shielding and Gateways.
What I accept about blocks isn't "collective wisdom". Its stuff stated straight out with no contradictory evidence. The same is totally not true with Gateways and strength.

Who can say what a block is, really?
All the channelers we have met in the series?

Or a wilder? The Wise Ones do not seem to have blocks, but they are wilders in a traditional sense. Egwene is a wilder to some AS (she began channeling outside the Tower), but she seems to have no blocks. Aviendha appears to be the most talented female channeler alive, and has never set foot in the WT.
I'm taking wilder to mean someone who started channeling on their own with no help at all, and achieved some level of control and managed to survive. This includes Nynaeve, Moiraine and Rand, and probably Taim and Logain, but <i>not</i> Egwene, the Wise Ones, the Sea Folk, or the Asha'man. Moiraine made it very clear as far back as EotW that being guided during your first touching of the OP means you get no reactions, and, as far as we have seen, doesn't cause blocks.

What if the hand motions that are necessary for certain Aes Sedai are a sort of block? I don't think we really have enough data to say otherwise.
They are not <i>blocks</i> because we actually know what they are. They have to do with the "second learned weave" limitation. The Aes Sedai learn to make some weaves with hand movements, at first, and so always need to use them as part of the weaving. Lews Therin displays the same thing, where he needs to raise his hands and spread his fingers to make Arrows of Fire (in KoD). You're not arguing LTT, the pinnacle of channeling in the Age of Legends, was blocked, are you?

Perhaps Androl's block is a sort of 'he can't channel strongly if he *whatever*' as opposed to the traditional 'he can't channel at all.'
His block was that he couldn't channel without touching a piece of leather, which Taim beat out of him. Want to show me a channeler with multiple types of blocks?

But his potential is unchanged, and so is his Gateway size.
Except it isn't just the size of his Gateways. He has very precise control over them, being able to use them to cut leather. He also comes very close to breaking the Dreamspikes restriction, even though others are unable to.

The same may go for Berowyn, or perhaps her case is different. But in any case, both Gateway size and shielding potential seem to be at least correlated with absolute potential. So using both to create a list such as this seems reasonable.
But Berowyn's potential is something Nynaeve can sense. And there is no mention of it being greater than her current strength would suggest.

More believable? Probably not. But as I said before, the quotes don't contradict each other at all. You seem to be taking principles of the Skimming Space and applying it to Gateways themselves.
As you saw when you quoted the whole text, this is not the case at all...

And Logain's word doesn't seem to demand as much skepticism as you think. He's been around a lot of channeling. Unless you think the greater part of his students have been masking their potentials just to screw with him. A general rule of thumb in literature is 'no sentence is without purpose.' While the obvious corrolary is that 'nothing necessarily means what we think it does', what exactly do you think the point of Logain's line was? To show he was insane?
No. It shows a general rule that strength in the Power has some correlation with Gateway size. For example, men and women weaker than a particular limit cannot create large enough Gateways. With her strength restricted to just as much OP as she can get from her well, Cadsuane can only make a Gateway large enough to crawl through. With a sa'angreal, Siuan can create a Gateway for people to go through, though her potential remains the same... all this says that strength in the Power does play a role in Gateway size.

But how much of a role? Two questions worth considering:

1)Is Gateway size directly proportional to strength? In other words, if you see a Gateway of a certain size, and the maker uses all their strength, does that mean you can say their strength is X based on previous Gateways you've seen? Obviously no, since people use only a fraction of their strength to create even their largest Gateways. Further, some like Androl can make absurdly large ones, while some like Aviendha make smaller ones than they should be able to, for various reasons.

2)Is Gateway size an indicator of potential?

First, you need to ask why this would be so. Since Gateway size is, apparently, related to a "dream of a dream", and Gateways and Tel'aran'rhiod have things in common (read: Dreamspike), the obvious inference is that limits on Gateway size are set by will power/strength of mind, as in TAR.

But say that doesn't convince you, and you believe potential strength plays a role. In that case, would you hold that a person's Gateway, once they've become strong enough to make one, would remain the same size over time? For example, since Elayne's Gateway size is supposedly dependent on potential, her Gateway when she was at 40% of her potential should be the same size as one she makes at 70% of her potential, right?

But this is explicitly not the case. In LoC, when Traveling to Ebou Dar, she is unable to make one large enough for a horse to ride through (Mat gets pissed at this, but Elayne is very pleased with her Gateway). But later, in WH (TO Surprise Kings and Queens), she does make a Gateway large enough to do so, and explicitly states that she did not use her angreal to do so.

Now, the only thing different is that she can channel more of the OP now. But, in between, in tPoD, Aviendha says Elayne can make a Gateway larger than her own (which is taller than a man and just as wide, so about 7-8 feet by 7-8 feet) with only a fraction of her (Elayne's) strength. And in WH, Elayne makes her big-enough-for-horse-and-rider Gateway when she is actually very tired and unable to channel at full strength.

So, clearly, her potential did not change, her actual strength increased, she still doesn't use all her strength, but her Gateways have become larger. Which proves rather conclusively that neither actual strength nor potential strength is the ultimate determiner of Gateway size (though actual strength does affect it to an extent).

and you're the one accusing me of making overly large leaps.
Yes, because you are...

That's a shame. They were interesting discussions. I revised a few of my own beliefs after reading them, and I don't give a crap about Androl. Berowyn was discussed too. But I am a naturally curious guy. I am a Theorylander (but I have no need to repeat myself).
Ok...

fionwe1987
02-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Actually, he is the ultimate wilder! All the students at the BT learn on their own. Except the ones that Taim has in his classes. Many may have developed blocks in training. Afterall who's there to tell what's wrong and what's right?
The older students are...

"Saml's all right, Aes Sedai," the Saldaean said, patting the boy's shoulder. "He's a quick learner, and you don't need to show him anything twice before he knows it." The boy stood up very straight, pride on his face, and tucked his thumbs behind his sword belt.

Its pretty obvious how it works. Taim trained the first few, and they trained more people, and those guys train the newer ones, and so on. The special classes are "special" because they're secret and for a select few. If they were the only classes, they would have been called as such.

Androl does everything through the use of gateways. And manages a precision with gateways that even stronger channelers like Logain may be hard pressed to match.
And...?
And the rule about gateways wasn't made up by anyone. Its in the books and hasn't been countered anywhere that I know of.
Read the quotes provided.

Could you provide the quotes? I think they would be helpful.
Sure...

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in OP strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channeler’s strengths. On that list, only 6 people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much anytime we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two OP strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn’t particularly strong in forsaken terms.

Brandon was very open and willing to talk about this issue – people who care about these things should ask at every opportunity.

That's pretty conclusive, no? A woman stronger than Nynaeve is extremely rare.

Kimon
02-28-2012, 11:02 PM
That's pretty conclusive, no? A woman stronger than Nynaeve is extremely rare.

I assume that that 6 has to refer to women rather than women and men, so if the sixth isn't (wasn't) Semirhage, who is it?

Cyndane
Alivia
Sharina
Graendal
Talaan
?
Nynaeve

The Angry Druid
02-28-2012, 11:19 PM
Worth more than you know.

Much appreciated.



Well. This may be a fair point, but it is both overthinking the issue and not thinking it through enough.

For the overthinking:
This is a rough list, an attempt to quantify something that may or may not be overly important. And shielding power and Gateway size have proven to have a high correlation to potential. The existence of a few exceptions are not evidence against correlation. So, using both is perfectly acceptable for this rough list.

I disagree here, but our disagreement is mainly semantics. Or a matter of degree. While I understand and agree that there is a correlation, I simply see too many other factors/exceptions to gauge OP strength based on facility/ability with one weave.

We've seen it over and over in the series. Channelers have not only different Talents, but different levels of facility with different weaves, and different flows. Healing (Sheriam, Rand and Elayne/Egwene & Verin are weak; Alanna, Moiraine, Nyneave, and Damer strong), Ewgene's ability with Earth; Shielding, breaking a shield, Gateways, Compulsion, etc.

You use the term correlation. Correctly, in this case, as there is no proven cause/effect relationship when something correlates, or, more precisely, has a degree of correlation with something else.

Here, we don't really have a LOT of data either way. How many channelers have we examined, knowing their overall strength/shielding ability and ability with gateway size? We know of numerous exceptions already (Androl, Asmodean, the lady from the Kin) that don't correlate with strength.

And furthermore, we have all kinds of examples of other kinds of weaves that don't correlate with strength either. Different talents and strengths and weaknesses for everyone. We've been hit over the head with it enough, particularly healing. Sheriam can barely heal, despite being quite strong. Egwene doesn't seem particularly gifted either. Neither is Rand.

I'd bet healing ability and OP strength also correlate. So on the basis of that data point alone, you'd be correct to say Rand's OP strength is weak. Of course, you'd be wrong, and we have a ton of data that says differently, but you take my point on correlations. Generally, yes, they make sense, but they can also be wrong. No cause/effect. Correlation is NOT a function of.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think correlations (meaning, no causation, or to the degree there is causation, other factors can heighten or lessen performance regardless of strength) are weak evidence. Evidence to be weighed, to be sure, but I don't give it too much weight. Which I think is appropriate given what we know about the numerous exceptions already noted, but specifically to Gateway size and to OP skills generally.



Now for the underthinking:
You don't look very deep into these exceptions. Maybe you're right, and we should just take them at face value, but...maybe not.

Maybe it was a Talent with her. Or maybe her shields are in some way qualitatively different. Maybe both (ie, the Talent to produce nontraditional shields).

Again, we don't have to speculate, the woman says it is almost a Talent with her. Yes, this could get very overanalyzed in terms of what is and is not a Talent and what is a skill, I don't want to go there.

The point is, she, like Androl, is just very skilled at this particular weave. Sometimes, that happens. I don't think this is, at all, a very controversial concept in the series. We've seen it over an over. Some channelers are weak or strong with some weaves, or even entire facets of the OP (Egwene being much stronger in Earth than Nynaeve, despite being weaker overall). We've seen it with healing (both ways), shields (both ways), use of Earth, and I'm fairly confident in many others.


Well, this is really an entirely different case. This so-called shield was most certainly qualitatively different (Asmodean could actually still channel).

No doubt you are correct. However, that is immaterial here. I'm not deducing the fact that Asmodean has trouble with shields because Lanfear's persists, or postulating about his ability to break through different types of shields. I'm saying that Asmodean has inherent issues (other than OP strength) that make him unable to effectively break through a shield. It's not an inference, it is stated straight out in the text, the quote from Lanfear is the proof. And, in so doing, she gives us another factor besides OP strength that not only influences his ability with this weave, but is MORE determinative than his overall strength.

The money quote: "He was never very good at breaking through a shield; you must be willing to accept pain, and he never could." TSR, Traps of Rhuidean, p. 973, paperback.

Look, maybe some would label it semantics, but I don't think my point is very controversial. All I'm saying that factors other than OP strength affect this particular OP usage, and virtually every other OP usage, and therefore a conclusion on OP strength based on facility/ability with one usage is inherently unreliable. Too many examples on too many different types of weaves.


It is not the same thing at all. Gateway size is directly related to their making. The Power is highly involved in their making. You may not need to channel all of your Power to create your maximum gateway, and you may be able to create multiple full-size Gateways simultaneously, but all evidence save Androl points to Gateway size being a direct function of potential.

You should reread that passage. The platform is far more similar to creation in TAR. Just look at Nynaeve's palaces and trees, you'll see the similarities. And the comment about the Power having little to do with Gateways is quite clearly referring to the nature of the Skimming space.

Agree on the TAR/playform piece, I thought that might be the case. But I didn't mean they were the same thing, I meant towards the general point that factors other than OP strength are affecting their size. Poor writing on my part.

One thing you have wrong for certain is that Androl is the only exception to the rule, there is an another exception you forgot: Aviendha. We know from her POV in PoD as they flee to the Kin's farm that she has trouble with gateways, and cannot make them very well.

She cannot remember how she did them before (fleeing from Rand), so Elayne taught her another way. Despite being quite strong, she has trouble making gateways. This difficulty is known to AS. The enyclopedia mentions this as the second-learned weave limitation, and mentions that Cadsuane knows of it as well.

It appears that if a channeler does something on their own, and then learns a new way of doing it, it can be difficult and effect the facility of the second learned weave. Again, how wide spread is this issue with this particular weave? Who knows? Not very, in all likelihood. But it come up enough generally that the problem is known by those who teach people how to channel.

Again, my point is that Androl isn't the only exception on Gateways, and there are other factors than OP strength that affect Gateway size, and facility with virtually type of OP weave.

I don't want to get into Androl's so-called "block." I've only read ToM twice, and I can't recall the Working Leather chapters in great detail.

I'm not saying you couldn't be right, but just that I view it as far-fetched. You've obviously thought about this one much more than I have. However, I would submit that the hand-waving thing is a variation on the second learned weave limitation. The limitation coming into play both when the wielder weaves the OP itself, and how the wielder moves their body when creating said weave.

fionwe1987
02-29-2012, 01:03 AM
I assume that that 6 has to refer to women rather than women and men, so if the sixth isn't (wasn't) Semirhage, who is it?

Cyndane
Alivia
Sharina
Graendal
Talaan
?
Nynaeve

Actually, you forgot Lanfear. Cyndane is slightly weaker than Lanfear.

As for Talaan, she is very unlikely to be stronger than Nynaeve. She had been channeling consciously for 7 years when she matched Nynaeve at a point Nyn wasn't at her full strength. This means that Nyn either exceeds her or equals her.

Kimon
02-29-2012, 06:42 AM
Actually, you forgot Lanfear. Cyndane is slightly weaker than Lanfear.

As for Talaan, she is very unlikely to be stronger than Nynaeve. She had been channeling consciously for 7 years when she matched Nynaeve at a point Nyn wasn't at her full strength. This means that Nyn either exceeds her or equals her.

I assumed by new that he meant updated to include only those who are alive, along with those who had been recently introduced, but yeah, if we can add Lanfear that would obviously nicely fill out those six. Interpreting it the way I had (as the living) was leaving me wondering if "people" really meant that Nynaeve was the 7th strongest channeler, regardless of gender. Which would have meant that she would have to be stronger than Taim and Logain.

Edit: of course, including Lanfear would also mean that there are still only five, not six, women stronger than Nynaeve, since Lanfear was stronger than her when she was Lanfear, and stronger now when she is Cyndane, so at the very least an asterix should apply.

The Unreasoner
02-29-2012, 07:13 AM
Did you read the scene in ToM where Rand single-handedly and without the aid of an angreal wipes out more than 10,000 shadowspawn using dozens of powerful weaves simultaneously over an extended period of time? I haven't seen any of the Forsaken even come close to half of the power necessary for that display. I find it very hard to believe LTT could have been significantly stronger. That seemed to be an example of the maximum potential of unaided destructive channeling, in raw power, endurance, skill, and dexterity.
I don’t know how sure we can be that he was unaided. I think he was, but I’m not certain. But we are agreed that this is above any other unaided display by at least an order of magnitude. It is so impressive that I would be surprised if LTT was normally that powerful. Or even close. Maybe a hidden *angreal, maybe PLE, maybe Fisher King nonsense…idk.
What I accept about blocks isn't "collective wisdom". Its stuff stated straight out with no contradictory evidence. The same is totally not true with Gateways and strength.
Totally not true? Or not totally true?
They are not <i>blocks</i> because we actually know what they are. They have to do with the "second learned weave" limitation. The Aes Sedai learn to make some weaves with hand movements, at first, and so always need to use them as part of the weaving. Lews Therin displays the same thing, where he needs to raise his hands and spread his fingers to make Arrows of Fire (in KoD). You're not arguing LTT, the pinnacle of channeling in the Age of Legends, was blocked, are you?
Fair enough. My word choice was less than perfect. I thought I said something like ‘general impairment’ later on though.
His block was that he couldn't channel without touching a piece of leather, which Taim beat out of him. Want to show me a channeler with multiple types of blocks?
There are thousands of channelers. We only have the complete medical histories of six or seven.
Except it isn't just the size of his Gateways. He has very precise control over them, being able to use them to cut leather. He also comes very close to breaking the Dreamspikes restriction, even though others are unable to.
His dexterity may be a sort of compensation.

And as The Angry Druid reminded me, Aviendha had trouble with Gateways after she slept with Rand. But she was quite capable before. Clearly psychological processes can affect channeling. What Androl’s ‘deal’ is may be unknown to me, but I don’t find it hard to believe that he may have one. Travel seems to be the story of his life, maybe it’s the only thing he cares about (and by extension, the only ability not impaired). Novice ‘tricks’ are often related to personalities: Moiraine likes discovering secrets, Liandrin likes control. Or maybe he saw his mother naked in the shower. Who knows what the exact psychological process is? Or what neural pathways need to be triggered?
But Berowyn's potential is something Nynaeve can sense. And there is no mention of it being greater than her current strength would suggest.
Berowyn’s case is certainly harder to understand than Androl’s. My best guess is that her shield is the Nynaeve’s Healing of Shielding (qualitatively different).
First, you need to ask why this would be so. Since Gateway size is, apparently, related to a "dream of a dream", and Gateways and Tel'aran'rhiod have things in common (read: Dreamspike), the obvious inference is that limits on Gateway size are set by will power/strength of mind, as in TAR.
I read ‘dream of a dream’ to be referring to the Skimming Space. I’ll take a second look.
So, clearly, her potential did not change, her actual strength increased, she still doesn't use all her strength, but her Gateways have become larger. Which proves rather conclusively that neither actual strength nor potential strength is the ultimate determiner of Gateway size (though actual strength does affect it to an extent).
Perhaps I should have said ‘potential of the moment’/’maximum tolerance of the moment’.
Much appreciated.
I think a good-natured debate with reasonable people who have conflicting opinions is mutually beneficial. I completely forgot about Aviendha’s situation, and you put in a new context for me.
You use the term correlation. Correctly, in this case, as there is no proven cause/effect relationship when something correlates, or, more precisely, has a degree of correlation with something else.

Here, we don't really have a LOT of data either way. How many channelers have we examined, knowing their overall strength/shielding ability and ability with gateway size? We know of numerous exceptions already (Androl, Asmodean, the lady from the Kin) that don't correlate with strength.
I am well aware that correlation =/= causation. And I know of variability in Talents. But, looking at the KoD quote from Logain, I think that this correlation is higher than most. And Logain probably has hundreds of data points from his students.
No doubt you are correct. However, that is immaterial here. I'm not deducing the fact that Asmodean has trouble with shields because Lanfear's persists, or postulating about his ability to break through different types of shields. I'm saying that Asmodean has inherent issues (other than OP strength) that make him unable to effectively break through a shield. It's not an inference, it is stated straight out in the text, the quote from Lanfear is the proof. And, in so doing, she gives us another factor besides OP strength that not only influences his ability with this weave, but is MORE determinative than his overall strength.

The money quote: "He was never very good at breaking through a shield; you must be willing to accept pain, and he never could." TSR, Traps of Rhuidean, p. 973, paperback.

Look, maybe some would label it semantics, but I don't think my point is very controversial. All I'm saying that factors other than OP strength affect this particular OP usage, and virtually every other OP usage, and therefore a conclusion on OP strength based on facility/ability with one usage is inherently unreliable. Too many examples on too many different types of weaves.
This is a fair point. I guess I should say that it is ‘physically possible’ for Asmodean to break some hypothetical shields. Just like RJ said it was ‘physically possible’ for Rand to beat Lanfear in TFoH showdown (the ‘laws’ of channeling permit it, personal natures account for the rest).
One thing you have wrong for certain is that Androl is the only exception to the rule, there is an another exception you forgot: Aviendha. We know from her POV in PoD as they flee to the Kin's farm that she has trouble with gateways, and cannot make them very well.

She cannot remember how she did them before (fleeing from Rand), so Elayne taught her another way. Despite being quite strong, she has trouble making gateways. This difficulty is known to AS. The enyclopedia mentions this as the second-learned weave limitation, and mentions that Cadsuane knows of it as well.
There are two issues here. The second-weave limitation seems neurological, but the impairment of the first seems psychological (similar to how AS forget Compulsion-like tricks, as Verin noted in WH).
I would submit that the hand-waving thing is a variation on the second learned weave limitation. The limitation coming into play both when the wielder weaves the OP itself, and how the wielder moves their body when creating said weave.
I like this. It’s neurological. Certain specific pathways need to be activated. Just like Human-computer interfacing. Or me: if I drink ice water when I haven’t slept in a few days and there’s loud music, I have a seizure. A weird, random neural pathway I discovered by accident, but it has a specific result.

greatwolf
02-29-2012, 10:18 AM
I assume that that 6 has to refer to women rather than women and men, so if the sixth isn't (wasn't) Semirhage, who is it?

Cyndane
Alivia
Sharina
Graendal
Talaan
?
Nynaeve

We can only be sure of four - Lanfear, Sharina, Alivia and Talaan. The last two could be Cyndane/Graendal/semirhage(BS didn't speak categorically)/Mora/Alosia/new character.

Talk later.

suttree
02-29-2012, 12:43 PM
I don’t know how sure we can be that he was unaided. I think he was, but I’m not certain. But we are agreed that this is above any other unaided display by at least an order of magnitude. It is so impressive that I would be surprised if LTT was normally that powerful. Or even close. Maybe a hidden *angreal, maybe PLE, maybe Fisher King nonsense…idk.


We know Rand has been powered up since KoD. He killed "nearly" the same # of Trollocs at the Manor.

Okay! Alright! So Wetlander and people.
LOIALSON
Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?
BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple (which is not actually called that in the books)—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [Brandon smiles]

Of course we have the Logain judgement in KoD to show about where Rand stands.

greatwolf
02-29-2012, 03:59 PM
No. It shows a general rule that strength in the Power has some correlation with Gateway size. For example, men and women weaker than a particular limit cannot create large enough Gateways. With her strength restricted to just as much OP as she can get from her well, Cadsuane can only make a Gateway large enough to crawl through. With a sa'angreal, Siuan can create a Gateway for people to go through, though her potential remains the same... all this says that strength in the Power does play a role in Gateway size.

But how much of a role? Two questions worth considering:

1)Is Gateway size directly proportional to strength? In other words, if you see a Gateway of a certain size, and the maker uses all their strength, does that mean you can say their strength is X based on previous Gateways you've seen? Obviously no, since people use only a fraction of their strength to create even their largest Gateways. Further, some like Androl can make absurdly large ones, while some like Aviendha make smaller ones than they should be able to, for various reasons.

2)Is Gateway size an indicator of potential?

First, you need to ask why this would be so. Since Gateway size is, apparently, related to a "dream of a dream", and Gateways and Tel'aran'rhiod have things in common (read: Dreamspike), the obvious inference is that limits on Gateway size are set by will power/strength of mind, as in TAR.

But say that doesn't convince you, and you believe potential strength plays a role. In that case, would you hold that a person's Gateway, once they've become strong enough to make one, would remain the same size over time? For example, since Elayne's Gateway size is supposedly dependent on potential, her Gateway when she was at 40% of her potential should be the same size as one she makes at 70% of her potential, right?

But this is explicitly not the case. In LoC, when Traveling to Ebou Dar, she is unable to make one large enough for a horse to ride through (Mat gets pissed at this, but Elayne is very pleased with her Gateway). But later, in WH (TO Surprise Kings and Queens), she does make a Gateway large enough to do so, and explicitly states that she did not use her angreal to do so.

Now, the only thing different is that she can channel more of the OP now. But, in between, in tPoD, Aviendha says Elayne can make a Gateway larger than her own (which is taller than a man and just as wide, so about 7-8 feet by 7-8 feet) with only a fraction of her (Elayne's) strength. And in WH, Elayne makes her big-enough-for-horse-and-rider Gateway when she is actually very tired and unable to channel at full strength.

So, clearly, her potential did not change, her actual strength increased, she still doesn't use all her strength, but her Gateways have become larger. Which proves rather conclusively that neither actual strength nor potential strength is the ultimate determiner of Gateway size (though actual strength does affect it to an extent).

Ok so you may have something here but you need to look at it well. This seems to be an exception to the rule that we're seeing here(Elayne's gateway).

First, Aviendha has a problem making gateways. This is acknowledged and doesn't invalidate the general rule. For all we know, it may be that different methods of weaving will produce different sizes of gateway by the same channeler. We just don't know enough about that. But the one direct example we had, Logain copied Rand's weave exactly but got a smaller gateway size. That kind of proof is hard to beat.

Elayne's gateway in LoC to ebou dar could admit a horse but not a mounted man. It was only in WH that she made one that horse and rider could pass through. There could be any of several reasons for this, just as there's a reason why aviendha was having problems with her gateways.

One possible reason is that she made a slightly different weave and didn't notice because of her condition.

Two, it could have been an effect of the bond she shared with Aviendha (or possibly even Rand)

Three it could be an unknown effect of pregnancy on channeling.

Four it could have been an error. We can easily eliminate this. If its an error BS will likely let us know straight out.

Unless there are further examples, i think i'll stick to what we know already, that gateway size correlates fairly well with OP strength. True there are factors affecting it, but there are factors affecting everything including OP strength itself such as angreal, linking, aelfinn, partial shielding, masking...

greatwolf
02-29-2012, 04:14 PM
Does anyone know what a cart size would be? Larger than 8feet by 8feet?

Rand muttered a command, and Flinn blinked in surprise before hurrying to join the line and weave a ninth gateway. None was as large as Rand could make, but any would pass a cart, if closely.


The others followed quickly, the Asha’man first of all. Dashiva stared in Rand’s direction, frowning, and Narishma, too, but Gedwyn immediately began directing his Soldiers. One by one, they rushed forward, opened a gateway and darted through, dragging their mounts behind them

It could give us a reasonable way to compare with the women. Flinn's gate was slightly smaller than Rand's but large enough for a cart or a mounted man. That means all nine(plus Flinn) here will top Elayne or Egwene. We can also add Neald and Grady.

“Carts,” Perrin said. Neald could not make a gateway large enough to accommodate a wagon. “Whatever they bring has to be in carts, not wagons.” Faloun mouthed the word incredulously

greatwolf
02-29-2012, 04:56 PM
I was considering making this a a separate thread since the question seems to be largely one of statistics and analysis. But I reconsidered, maybe it'll be of some use here.

RJ on demographics:

At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to—the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake—but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possib

In WH, we are told there are 83 shaido septs and each sept will have about a thousand spears and more at need. If we use the shaido as representative, there would about 100k spears per clan or 1.2 warriors. This figure is close to what we have from the battle of cairhien - 250k men in four groups.

This isn't the total population of the aiel as it excludes children, aged, blacksmiths and WOs. But even then, at 1% of the population, there should be about 10,000 wise ones! or at least 1,000 per clan.

However RJ said elsewhere that the figure could be as high as 3-5% in a population that was not culled. That would raise the figure to 30 to 50k channlers including male and female. If true, its very likely then that the WOs admit only sparkers.

Using the bell curve RJ described in his interviews (still looking for the quote), can we piece together just how many channelers the aiel would have in say, the top 1%? or the top three levels on a 21 point scale?

fionwe1987
02-29-2012, 08:46 PM
Totally not true? Or not totally true?
The second one.

Fair enough. My word choice was less than perfect. I thought I said something like ‘general impairment’ later on though.
You still need to show it to be an actual impairment, though.

There are thousands of channelers. We only have the complete medical histories of six or seven.
Okay... and your point is? This is a created world with created rules. When discussing it, we can only use the framework of existing rules that have been mentioned either in the books or the author. If we start arguing that we are right on the basis of what might be a fact, though there is zero support for it anywhere, there is no point to our discussion. I could claim that maybe Gateway size is correlated with penis size, and I can merrily refute any strength list out there on that basis. Makes the discussion pointless, no?

His dexterity may be a sort of compensation.
Precisely...
And as The Angry Druid reminded me, Aviendha had trouble with Gateways after she slept with Rand. But she was quite capable before. Clearly psychological processes can affect channeling. What Androl’s ‘deal’ is may be unknown to me, but I don’t find it hard to believe that he may have one. Travel seems to be the story of his life, maybe it’s the only thing he cares about (and by extension, the only ability not impaired).
Or, you know, the only ability augmented.
Novice ‘tricks’ are often related to personalities: Moiraine likes discovering secrets, Liandrin likes control. Or maybe he saw his mother naked in the shower. Who knows what the exact psychological process is? Or what neural pathways need to be triggered?
But that is exactly my point. With Gateway ize confirmed to be dependent on "the dream of a dream", psychological issues are going to probably play a much bigger role than strength (potential or otherwise). We may have extremely weak channelers who can't even break a rock with the OP who has some psychological advantage which allows him to make humungous gateways. Oh wait... we do!

The point I'm making is that you can't take people like Androl as outliers, ignore them, and then make a correlation. Androl may be an extreme case of Talent at making Gateways, but you'd have to show he's a bizzare case, and no merely a part of a continuum to show that there is a correlation between strength and Gateway size. What if there's someone as weak as him who can make slightly smaller gateways than him (but is still displaying great skill with this one weave...)?

And I was reading Androl chapters yesterday, and he says Logain knew of his ability and called it impressive. Which means Logain's statement in KoD holds even less value. He knows there are very weak channelers who can make humungous Gateways. He was merely looking at the larger size of Rand's Gateways and assuming the cause is his greater strength, ignoring the chance that something like Androl's Talent could be at play here.
Berowyn’s case is certainly harder to understand than Androl’s. My best guess is that her shield is the Nynaeve’s Healing of Shielding (qualitatively different).
But they are different. They bend and stretch where other shields don't. The point is, there can be any number of factors other than strength affecting shielding. It could be the quality of the shield. It could be strength in Spirit. It could be concentration. Take the case of Nynaeve teaching shielding to Talaan, for example. At one time, Talaan is unable to shield her, whereas a few minutes later, she is able to do so. She doesn't put more strength into it, and the weave is exactly the same, but two different results... Does this mean Talaan jumped in strength in two minutes, or that shielding is complicated by factors other than strength?

I read ‘dream of a dream’ to be referring to the Skimming Space. I’ll take a second look.
How you could mix those up is beyond me. That quote has been given here at least twice!

Perhaps I should have said ‘potential of the moment’/’maximum tolerance of the moment’.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Are you saying the weave is "sensing" how much is the maximum you can currently hold?

And anyway, Rand's example proves even this to be untrue. He has been making a 4x4 paces gateway since tFoH, and that remains his Gateway size even in KoD, even though he has definitely gone up in his "potential of the moment" in that time.

fionwe1987
02-29-2012, 09:17 PM
Ok so you may have something here but you need to look at it well. This seems to be an exception to the rule that we're seeing here(Elayne's gateway).
No it isn't. Aviendha and Elayne have since made many Gateways large enough to ride through.

First, Aviendha has a problem making gateways. This is acknowledged and doesn't invalidate the general rule. For all we know, it may be that different methods of weaving will produce different sizes of gateway by the same channeler. We just don't know enough about that. But the one direct example we had, Logain copied Rand's weave exactly but got a smaller gateway size. That kind of proof is hard to beat.
It is? What exactly is it a proof of, in the first place? Rand made a bigger Gateway, Logain made a smaller one. Rand is stronger in the OP, taller, and has red hair, whereas Logain is slightly weaker in the power, shorter, and has dark hair. There is, in this case, as much evidence that height or hair color influences Gateway size as that strength does.

With Aviendha, her Gateway size is definitely smaller because the weave she now uses is different from the first one she used. Thus, the second weave limitation applies to her.

Elayne's gateway in LoC to ebou dar could admit a horse but not a mounted man. It was only in WH that she made one that horse and rider could pass through. There could be any of several reasons for this, just as there's a reason why aviendha was having problems with her gateways.

One possible reason is that she made a slightly different weave and didn't notice because of her condition.
She didn't notice what she wove? She made up a completely new type of weave allowing a larger Gateway, and didn't notice?:rolleyes:

If the larger Gateway was unexpected, why in the world didn't she dismount in preparation for passing through her expected smaller Gateway?

Two, it could have been an effect of the bond she shared with Aviendha (or possibly even Rand)
How? Bonds don't affect channeling.

Three it could be an unknown effect of pregnancy on channeling.
That selectively made her Gateway larger, but didn't affect other things so she would notice? And again... why didn't she dismount?

Four it could have been an error. We can easily eliminate this. If its an error BS will likely let us know straight out.
So we're down to "the author is wrong but I am not"?

Unless there are further examples, i think i'll stick to what we know already, that gateway size correlates fairly well with OP strength. True there are factors affecting it, but there are factors affecting everything including OP strength itself such as angreal, linking, aelfinn, partial shielding, masking...
But there are further examples.

In CoT:

Still studying him, hardly taking her eyes away long enough to place her feet in the snow without tripping, she moved to one side to let Aram and the Two Rivers men ride through. Accustomed to Traveling if not to Asha'man by now, they barely bent their heads enough to clear the top of the opening, and only the tallest did even that. It struck Perrin that the gateway was larger than the first one of Grady's make that he had passed through. He had had to dismount, then.

And this...


Aviendha colored faintly under the praise - she could be very sensitive, at times - but she wasted no time in opening the gateway, a rotating view of a stableyard in the Royal Palace that widened into a hole in the air and let snow from the meadow fall onto the clean-swept paving stones as near three hundred miles away as made no difference...

The gateway was positioned so that Elayne seemed to be riding out of a hole in the wall against the
street, into a square marked out for safety by sand-filled wine barrels standing on the paving stones.

So, from tPoD to CoT, Aviendha's Gateway size increased too, and this is despite her weave being one Elayne uses too. All we know from earlier in the chapter is that Aviendha had been practicing the Traveling weave a lot...

So you see, despite your claims to the contrary, I've now shown three people who could make larger Gateways over time. Rand, a guy who was forced, on the other hand, didn't show any Gateway size increases, even though his strength did increase a little between tFoH and KoD.

What this tells me is that skill and practice and Talent play a much bigger role than strength.

fionwe1987
02-29-2012, 09:20 PM
Does anyone know what a cart size would be? Larger than 8feet by 8feet?


It could give us a reasonable way to compare with the women. Flinn's gate was slightly smaller than Rand's but large enough for a cart or a mounted man. That means all nine(plus Flinn) here will top Elayne or Egwene. We can also add Neald and Grady.
Oh for the love of...

First and foremost, men and women Travel differently. Even the weave composition is different. Men lace Spirit with Fire, women only use Spirit. For another, fewer women seem to be able to Travel than men. Which means comparing strengths across gender using Gateway size is futile.

For another, what makes you think Egwene's 8 feet by 8 feet Gateway was her maximum? She's hardly going to make a humungous Gateway for two people!

fionwe1987
02-29-2012, 09:21 PM
I was considering making this a a separate thread since the question seems to be largely one of statistics and analysis. But I reconsidered, maybe it'll be of some use here.

RJ on demographics:



In WH, we are told there are 83 shaido septs and each sept will have about a thousand spears and more at need. If we use the shaido as representative, there would about 100k spears per clan or 1.2 warriors. This figure is close to what we have from the battle of cairhien - 250k men in four groups.

This isn't the total population of the aiel as it excludes children, aged, blacksmiths and WOs. But even then, at 1% of the population, there should be about 10,000 wise ones! or at least 1,000 per clan.

However RJ said elsewhere that the figure could be as high as 3-5% in a population that was not culled. That would raise the figure to 30 to 50k channlers including male and female. If true, its very likely then that the WOs admit only sparkers.

Using the bell curve RJ described in his interviews (still looking for the quote), can we piece together just how many channelers the aiel would have in say, the top 1%? or the top three levels on a 21 point scale?
The Wise Ones claim they catch every woman who can learn. The end number of Wise Ones, however, may be smaller because of the losses which occur when they take their two trips to Rhuidean.

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2012, 04:23 AM
Does anyone know what a cart size would be? Larger than 8feet by 8feet?
I would've said smaller.

Then I made the mistake of using Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart). Look at the picture of the Haitian hand cart! :eek:

The Unreasoner
03-01-2012, 07:10 AM
How you could mix those up is beyond me. That quote has been given here at least twice!
While I'll get back to your other points, this one has an answer that is readily available.

The quote:
The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
So here, gateways are only the reference point, and I read the quote correctly: A dream of a dream refers to the Skimming Space.

fionwe1987
03-01-2012, 11:18 AM
While I'll get back to your other points, this one has an answer that is readily available.

The quote:

So here, gateways are only the reference point, and I read the quote correctly: A dream of a dream refers to the Skimming Space.
Wow... way to misread a sentence.

The Unreasoner
03-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Wow... way to misread a sentence.
For me or you?

I realize the quote doesn't say anything about gateway size being related to strength. I also realize 'dream of a dream' is vague enough that it could mean a lot of things. But that 'dream of a dream' is referring to the Skimming Space? That is pretty much fact.

finnssss
03-01-2012, 12:34 PM
The Wise Ones claim they catch every woman who can learn. The end number of Wise Ones, however, may be smaller because of the losses which occur when they take their two trips to Rhuidean.

Exactly and I would fully expect the Shaido to have lost more Wiseone's to Rhuidean than any other clan.
The Shaido had about 500 Wise Ones that could channel when they crossed the Dragonwall.
If you figure the other clans average about 6-700 per, then you get reasonably close to that 1% number.


This figure is close to what we have from the battle of cairhien - 250k men in four groups.


Not exactly sure where these numbers are from but the battle of Cairhien involved closer to 700k spears between the Shaido/Brotherless, Rand's forces and the 4 additional clans.

Seeker
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
RJ answered this and its in the link that Kimon gave at the 13th depository. But there are a whole lot of other things i'm considering here. I've always wondered if what nyn was about Logain's strength and i've read and reread her shielding of him in LoC to find definite proof but I'm not sure.

Yes, but what does that mean?

If saidin channelers are not measured on the same scale as saidar channelers then how can we say that Rand is stronger in the power than Egwene? And the book does say that at several points.

My question is not whether we can rank men and women on the same scale but whether or not the same limits apply. For instance, Linda of the 13th depository says that a woman must be a level 8 channeler or higher to make a gateway. Is it the same for men? Or is the bar higher in their case? For instance, might it be the case that a man has to be Level 11 or higher to make a gateway.

If the two scales are not at parity then how can we say that "men are generally stronger in the power than women?" Being generally stronger is a meaningless concept if it takes a torrent of saidin to accomplish the same feat that can be performed with just a trickle of saidar.

Verin Mathwin
03-01-2012, 07:34 PM
My question is not whether we can rank men and women on the same scale but whether or not the same limits apply. For instance, Linda of the 13th depository says that a woman must be a level 8 channeler or higher to make a gateway. Is it the same for men? Or is the bar higher in their case? For instance, might it be the case that a man has to be Level 11 or higher to make a gateway.

If the two scales are not at parity then how can we say that "men are generally stronger in the power than women?" Being generally stronger is a meaningless concept if it takes a torrent of saidin to accomplish the same feat that can be performed with just a trickle of saidar.

Well, If I remember correctly there are a lot more men than women that can weave a gateway, so I would guess it doesn't take more power to do the same thing. Even if it did take more power for men the fact that more men can make gateways so men are just generally stronger i.e. there are far fewer men that are under 11's while there are many more women that are under 8's so the point is moot either way.

The Unreasoner
03-02-2012, 02:08 AM
As a follow up to my last post, I have something of interest directly discussing size. Maybe not conclusive, but more than my word alone:
[/URL]Travelling and Skimming (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/weaves-and-talents.html)[URL="http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/weaves-and-talents.html"]

Travelling is the ability to shift oneself from one place to another without crossing the intervening space and is a major Talent.

In order to Travel the channeller must know their starting place in great detail. Men bend the Pattern so that there is no space between where they are and where they want to go and bore a Hole in the Pattern from one to the other. Women change the weave of the Pattern with a flow of Spirit to create a similarity between where they are and where they want to go so that there is no difference between the two at that point. A gateway then opens. The two methods are completely incompatible with each other (Lord of Chaos, Gifts).

The stronger the channeller, the larger the gateway they can make. Without enough strength, a channeller may be only able to open small hole, or else no hole at all. Women can link, though, and then weave a gateway.

If the starting area is not well known, but the destination is, a different weave can open a gateway for Skimming. The channeller stands or sits on an imagined platform and moves through the void to their destination. It is slower than Travelling, but fairly secure. Two channellers will not see each other while Skimming unless the gateways are made at almost the same time, from the same spot with identical weaves (A Crown of Swords, A Morning of Victory). (Nevertheless, Rand saw Asmodean when they Skimmed to Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising, The Trap of Rhuidean).

According to Jordan, travel to other planets within the solar system is possible and would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, though not necessarily as many as thirteen, depending on exactly how far out they wanted to go. Travel to a planet in another solar system would require a circle of the maximum possible size of very strong channelers, and there would a limit on how far they could go in one jump. They could planet-hop, of course. Another galaxy is too far away to reach by Travelling (TOR Question of the Week).

If a channeller tries to open a gateway where one already exists, that gateway is displaced just enough that the two do not touch (Knife of Dreams, Siege).

greatwolf
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
On channeler strength he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha was a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine was found. They were the strongest Aes Sedai known before "the new ones".


RAND
Is Rand the most powerful channeler alive right now?
ROBERT JORDAN
RAFO.


There is some confusion in the books about the relative strengths of the Forsaken. Can you rank order them?
ROBERT JORDAN
No. The confusion is intentional. The only information on their strengths is rumor and story held over from the Age of Legends and personal opinions of the Forsaken themselves, hardly an unbiased source! The hierarchy of the Forsaken is complex and fluid, not reflecting any direct measure of strength. Also, remember that different channelers have different Talents.


For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bof the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I'll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.


QUESTION
Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes, basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.


QUESTION
How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I'm pretty sure she's stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It's such a rare event that pretty much anytime we meet someone stronger than her, it's explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales—an 'old' and a 'new'. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the 'old' list. Six are stronger on the 'new' list.

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn't particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

Brandon was very open and willing to talk about this issue—people who care about these things should ask at every opportunity.


Of the really strong channelers we know the nature to, all but one have been sparkers. This has led to the belief that sparkers are on average stronger than learners. Is this belief justified?
MARIA SIMONS
No. "Having been born with the inherent spark apparently is not an indicator of strength. There are as many with weak potential who will channel whether they are taught or not as there are of great potential" (from Jim's notes). The stronger ones just get more attention.


Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

greatwolf
03-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Actually, you forgot Lanfear. Cyndane is slightly weaker than Lanfear.

As for Talaan, she is very unlikely to be stronger than Nynaeve. She had been channeling consciously for 7 years when she matched Nynaeve at a point Nyn wasn't at her full strength. This means that Nyn either exceeds her or equals her.

Seven? where did you get that? All I know is she's nineteen. Both Elayne and nynaeve think she's far short of her potential.


from tPoD to CoT, Aviendha's Gateway size increased too,

No she had an angreal:

“Light, Aviendha, we have angreal, and neither of us is exactly helpless.

Grady: we've been told repeatedly how often Perrin wears out the ashaman with Travelling.

“Are you all right. Grady?” The man’s weathered face seemed to have new lines in it. That might have been a trick of moonshadows cast by the trees, but Perrin did not think so. The carts had passed through the gateway easily, but was it a little smaller than the first he had seen Grady make?

That's all that's responsible for changes or perceived changes in gateway size.

We all accept that there are factors that affect gateway size (or even age and slowing) and if that's what you're saying, then we're agreed.

greatwolf
03-02-2012, 05:31 PM
Yes, but what does that mean?

If saidin channelers are not measured on the same scale as saidar channelers then how can we say that Rand is stronger in the power than Egwene? And the book does say that at several points.

My question is not whether we can rank men and women on the same scale but whether or not the same limits apply. For instance, Linda of the 13th depository says that a woman must be a level 8 channeler or higher to make a gateway. Is it the same for men? Or is the bar higher in their case? For instance, might it be the case that a man has to be Level 11 or higher to make a gateway.

If the two scales are not at parity then how can we say that "men are generally stronger in the power than women?" Being generally stronger is a meaningless concept if it takes a torrent of saidin to accomplish the same feat that can be performed with just a trickle of saidar.

The scales are at par. They rank raw strength: how much of the OP one can draw. For instance, the strongest BF made by Moiraine at her strength "x" can be compared with the BF made by Rand with strength "y" and we find that there's significant difference. Same applies to slowing and gateways.

However, I'll state again, strength is not the measure of effectiveness in battle or effectiveness at anything else for that matter.


The Wise Ones claim they catch every woman who can learn. The end number of Wise Ones, however, may be smaller because of the losses

What losses? And the figure for WOs should be closer to thirty thousand or more since its a population that isn't culled and the WO don't pratice birth control the AS way. Or at least fifteen to eighteen thousand if we assume a 60/40 female to male ratio of channelers.


I was at the signing at King of Prussia last night, and asked a question about Randland life that has been bugging me for a while—do Aes Sedai ever have children, and why/why not?
ROBERT JORDAN
I was impressed with Jordan's casual reply, as if this were common knowledge—that all Aes Sedai, and for that matter, most women have knowledge of a special herb that serves as an incredibly efficient contraceptive. This herb is just general women's lore, passed to women by Wisdoms and such.

He followed up with two other points : 1) Aes Sedai are personally discouraged from having children because they know they will outlive them, and 2) it's clearly not a popular idea because the White Ajah had suggested having children with men who can channel in order to undo "culling", but this suggestion was not particularly well received.

fionwe1987
03-02-2012, 05:45 PM
RFor me or you?
For you.
I realize the quote doesn't say anything about gateway size being related to strength. I also realize 'dream of a dream' is vague enough that it could mean a lot of things. But that 'dream of a dream' is referring to the Skimming Space? That is pretty much fact.
No it is not. You read it to mean, "beyond the Gateway (physically) is a dream of a dream."

I read: the OP is only involved in the initial making of the Gateway. Beyond that, other factors are involved, that Asmodean calls a dream of a dream.

My interpretation is supported by the fact that you can do things in the Dream world that prevent the opening of Gateways. As we see in Androl's chapter, the weave is perfectly made (meaning the OP part of Gateways is satisfied), but the weaves refuse to coalesce into a gateway. Something (the Dreamspike) is interfering with the "dream beyond the dream".

Another factor in support is that Egwene uses the same weave she used to enter TAR to Travel as well. In fact, she expected there misty curtain to appear.

This makes me believe that the way Gateways work is by first making a hole into TAR (men by boring a hole through the Pattern, women by creating an identity). This is why you need to know your starting location well. If you're concentrating on your destination, though, you're basically bending TAR to join the two points together, something that is possible since TAR is so malleable.

With a Dreamspike, I think the "GPS coordinates" of the area under the dome is scrambled. So when you try to link up to TAR from reality, you can't, because you expect TAR to reflect reality, but something is scrambling that reflection. So no Gateway forms. If you have the "key" to the Dreamspike, though, you basically basically can unscramble the distortion.

If this theory holds true, then your ability in TAR, your strength of will, is at least as important as your strength in the OP in determining Gateway size. I'd be completely unsurprised if Androl turns out to be a Dreamwalker and Dreamwalkers in general can make larger gateways disproportionate to their strength.

fionwe1987
03-02-2012, 06:00 PM
As a follow up to my last post, I have something of interest directly discussing size. Maybe not conclusive, but more than my word alone:

I always take interpretations of text with a grain of salt. And Linda doesn't seem to have added information from ToM in this section, it is even more questionable.

fionwe1987
03-02-2012, 06:54 PM
Seven? where did you get that? All I know is she's nineteen. Both Elayne and nynaeve think she's far short of her potential.

Here:


“Well, the training is very hard, Talaan,” she said gently, “and you must be at least fifteen. Besides*.*.*.” Something else the young woman ad said struck her suddenly. “You will miss your mother?” she said incredulously, not caring how it sounded.
“I am nineteen!” Talaan replied indignantly. Looking at that boyish face and form, Nynaeve was not sure she believed.

Since you only start to slow after you begin to channel regularly, and art 19, Talaan looks younger than 15, she probably began to channel around 12. Nynaeve and Elayne thought she actually was very young, so they assumed she had much of her potential to gain. Which is plumb impossible, of course, since at best, she could be two levels above Nynaeve.

No she had an angreal:

First of all, having an angreal doesn't mean using it. Secondly, do read the whole chapter before quoting something. A few paragraphs before Avi opens the Gateway Elayne says:

The glow remained around her, and Elayne could feel that she had drawn on the Source as deeply as she could. But even as Aviendha turned to her, she felt the amount of saidar the other woman held dwindle

There is no mention of her drawing more again before the Gateway is opened.

Grady: we've been told repeatedly how often Perrin wears out the ashaman with Travelling.
What in the world do you mean by this? Overworking with the power weakens you and reduces Gateway size. It doesn't increase it!



That's all that's responsible for changes or perceived changes in gateway size.

We all accept that there are factors that affect gateway size (or even age and slowing) and if that's what you're saying, then we're agreed.
I'm also saying this means you can't use Gateway size as a measure of OP strength. Since your theory cannot explain Androl, Aviendha, Grady, Elayne and Rand, it is wrong.



What losses? And the figure for WOs should be closer to thirty thousand or more since its a population that isn't culled and the WO don't pratice birth control the AS way. Or at least fifteen to eighteen thousand if we assume a 60/40 female to male ratio of channelers.
.
Its becoming really tiring to spell everything out dude. The losses I'm referring to are the women who die in their two trips to Rhuidean, as I made clear in my first post. You can't cut off a sentence and then ask for proof.
And the Aiel do cull male channelers. They go away to the Blight to die fighting the Dark One. So they're no longer reproducing and making babies.

Kimon
03-02-2012, 08:33 PM
Here:


“Well, the training is very hard, Talaan,” she said gently, “and you must be at least fifteen. Besides*.*.*.” Something else the young woman ad said struck her suddenly. “You will miss your mother?” she said incredulously, not caring how it sounded.
“I am nineteen!” Talaan replied indignantly. Looking at that boyish face and form, Nynaeve was not sure she believed.

Since you only start to slow after you begin to channel regularly, and art 19, Talaan looks younger than 15, she probably began to channel around 12. Nynaeve and Elayne thought she actually was very young, so they assumed she had much of her potential to gain. Which is plumb impossible, of course, since at best, she could be two levels above Nynaeve.


This isn't evidence that she has been channeling for 7 years. She might have slowed, but she might well just look young for her age. Admittedly, in this same chapter (which honestly would seem to have been the more applicable section for you to have quoted) she does mention that her sister was kept 5 years longer in her apprenticeship than normal, and her cousin six, so as to avoid signs of favoritism. Nonetheless, keep in mind that Moiraine went to the tower at age 16, she had already sparked, but not long before she went to the tower. It is difficult for us to determine at just what age Talaan might have sparked (unless you know of a quote that actually does indicate something more definitive than the above), but on the basis of what we do know, there seems no reason to assume that she has been channeling already for seven years. Twelve seems quite young for her to have sparked. It's not impossible, but it seems more likely to have placed that at somewhere between 15 and 17. This would mean that she had been channeling between 2-4 years, which would make better sense of why she would still be worried about an ongoing longevity of apprenticeship, and hence see perhaps the WT, and her dreams of being a novice, as a quicker and easier route to independence. This seems less likely if she had already been apprenticed for seven years. At such a length, certainly even fears of her family avoiding signs of nepotism would have left a presumption of a quicker path towards independence coming from staying the course rather than switching to novitiate training at so late a stage.

finnssss
03-02-2012, 09:01 PM
Since you only start to slow after you begin to channel regularly, and art 19, Talaan looks younger than 15, she probably began to channel around 12. Nynaeve and Elayne thought she actually was very young, so they assumed she had much of her potential to gain. Which is plumb impossible, of course, since at best, she could be two levels above Nynaeve.


The slowing in women doesn't start until they're 20, 19 at the earliest whether they were channeling at 12 or 19.
Talaan looks young because quite simply, she looks young. Her slowing, if she has even begun to yet, would be very, very recent and certainly didn't start at 14-15.
Men don't even start to slow until their mid-late 20's so even if they begin at 12, it doesn't matter.
I doubt women at any different.


I asked Jordan when a man with the spark would slow...The answer is: Women usually slow at twenty, sometimes a little earlier, but usually around there. Men wouldn't slow until twenty-five, usually closer to thirty. He claims that they could go past thirty, but that probably depends on how early they start and how much they channel.

fionwe1987
03-02-2012, 10:53 PM
Hmm... interesting points. I'd forgotten that slowing has a start point.

However, my point about Talaan still stands I think. She has definitely been channeling for quite a while, with Nynaeve herself not at full potential in WH, I doubt Talaan is stronger than her.

Kimon
03-02-2012, 11:28 PM
Hmm... interesting points. I'd forgotten that slowing has a start point.

However, my point about Talaan still stands I think. She has definitely been channeling for quite a while, with Nynaeve herself not at full potential in WH, I doubt Talaan is stronger than her.

The key here is that she does not yet seem to have surpassed Nynaeve, yet Nynaeve in that same passage in WH (Ch 11) notes that the girl already matches her in strength, and clearly assumes that her potential would surpass her own - "She had no interest in knowing how much stronger than she a Sea Folk girl was going to be. None at all."

Consider Moiraine. In NS, while Moiraine is traveling as Lady Alys, she is 22 and yet still not at her full potential after channeling for six years. There is no reason to assume that the same is not the case with Talaan, especially considering that Nynaeve herself assumes as such. Talaan's potential clearly must surpass Nynaeve's.

fionwe1987
03-03-2012, 12:08 AM
The key here is that she does not yet seem to have surpassed Nynaeve, yet Nynaeve in that same passage in WH (Ch 11) notes that the girl already matches her in strength, and clearly assumes that her potential would surpass her own - "She had no interest in knowing how much stronger than she a Sea Folk girl was going to be. None at all."

Consider Moiraine. In NS, while Moiraine is traveling as Lady Alys, she is 22 and yet still not at her full potential after channeling for six years. There is no reason to assume that the same is not the case with Talaan, especially considering that Nynaeve herself assumes as such. Talaan's potential clearly must surpass Nynaeve's.
But Nynaeve herself isn't at full potential at that point! I'm not saying Talaan is weaker than her for certain. But there's no evidence she's stronger either.

The Unreasoner
03-03-2012, 02:36 AM
@greatwolf
I am against using age as a marker of strength because we need two data points on every channeler. Look at Taim: he's in his late twenties, but Rand thought he was in his mid thirties when they met. Granted, he was a little worse for wear, but to get strength we need apparent age and actual age. The dearth of complete data sets makes using age impractical at best.

On Talaan:
She probably is slightly stronger than Nynaeve at best. When Nynaeve thought she would ultimately be stronger Nynaeve also thought Talaan was a child.

@fionwe
I have always supported the idea that platform-building and destination determination when Skimming and Travelling is strikingly similar to Dreamwalking, both in 'jumping' and building. I completely agree with the bulk of your post on these similarities. But, again: the size of the Gateway is a result of their making. A Gateway's utility may be far more complex, and probably incorporates some elements of Dreamwalking. The context of the FoH quote seems to strongly support my interpretation, especially when considering the actual 'use' of a Skimming Gateway.

Regarding the larger issue, my KoD quote seems to more directly address the problem. Especially given Logain's substantial experience with male channelers.

greatwolf
03-03-2012, 10:56 AM
@greatwolf
I am against using age as a marker of strength because we need two data points on every channeler. Look at Taim: he's in his late twenties, but Rand thought he was in his mid thirties when they met. Granted, he was a little worse for wear, but to get strength we need apparent age and actual age. The dearth of complete data sets makes using age impractical at best.


Two data points? We'll need far more! Age, appearance, special health situations (such as the oath rod, living in the waste or damane or aol) and strength category if possible. As I've said before, its using the minor clues to create a more complete picture.


On Talaan:
She probably is slightly stronger than Nynaeve at best. When Nynaeve thought she would ultimately be stronger Nynaeve also thought Talaan was a child.


Since the rate of slowing depends on strength, what would Talaan's life expectancy be all things being equal? Knowing her life expectancy, how does that compare with her current age? For instance Moggy was considered young at 200years, and Graendal just into her middle years at 300, and LT middle aged at about 400plus.

oops!

E: So Talaan will slow greatly (more than nyn, all things being equal). And that too is a measure of her strength.

Kimon
03-03-2012, 01:03 PM
On Talaan:
She probably is slightly stronger than Nynaeve at best. When Nynaeve thought she would ultimately be stronger Nynaeve also thought Talaan was a child.



Except we know that age is difficult to accurately assess for channelers on account of the factor of slowing (which may not even be an issue here, as she has either just begun slowing or else simply looks young on account of being boyishly slim), but that potential can be sensed, even if not with absolutely perfect accuracy, for women. We've seen that numerous times throughout the books - as with Moiraine in NS when the sisters sensed her potential when she entered that inn in Canluum, and with Aviendha both by Moiraine and later by the sisters in Salidar. So either Nynaeve is just really lousy at accurately gauging potential, or else she is correct, and Talaan's potential is indeed greater than her own.

greatwolf
03-03-2012, 02:49 PM
The other thing I was hoping to get some help with is matching characters with age/appearance/strength/gateway size and see what we can come up with. Gates that can admit a mounted man seems to be a useful indicator just as we've always used the ability to travel as a measure of strength in ranking channelers. For example Beonin Marinye:

Something new and marvelous. The vertical silvery line appeared in front of her, right atop the scoring on the ground. and suddenly became a gap that widened, the view through appearing to rotate until she was faced by a square hole in the air, more than two paces by two,

And Neald:

She rode into the forest with the Murandian, to a place where several of the huge trees lay toppled and oddly slashed, sure it would be difficult for her to use his hole in the air, but when the man produced a vertical silver-blue slash that widened into a view of steeply climbing land, she did not think of tainted saidin at all as she heeled Swift through the opening. Never a thought except of Therava.

fionwe1987
03-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Except we know that age is difficult to accurately assess for channelers on account of the factor of slowing (which may not even be an issue here, as she has either just begun slowing or else simply looks young on account of being boyishly slim), but that potential can be sensed, even if not with absolutely perfect accuracy, for women. We've seen that numerous times throughout the books - as with Moiraine in NS when the sisters sensed her potential when she entered that inn in Canluum, and with Aviendha both by Moiraine and later by the sisters in Salidar. So either Nynaeve is just really lousy at accurately gauging potential, or else she is correct, and Talaan's potential is indeed greater than her own.
Nynaeve actually does suck at it. She says so herself


@Greatwolf:

The problem with that comparison is that it assumes Beonin was mashing the largest gateway she could. The same with Neald.

tworiverswoman
03-03-2012, 10:26 PM
And as The Angry Druid reminded me, Aviendha had trouble with Gateways after she slept with Rand. But she was quite capable before.She cannot remember how she did them before (fleeing from Rand), so Elayne taught her another way. Despite being quite strong, she has trouble making gateways. This difficulty is known to AS. The enyclopedia mentions this as the second-learned weave limitation, and mentions that Cadsuane knows of it as well.

It appears that if a channeler does something on their own, and then learns a new way of doing it, it can be difficult and effect the facility of the second learned weave."Quite capable?" Aviendha's first-ever Gateway was a panic-induced "wilder" weave. She used it to get "as far away as possible" from Rand (which is how they ended up in Seanchan lands...). Luckily, Rand blocked the gateway open so they could return through it - because he didn't know how to make one yet, and she hadn't CONSCIOUSLY made the first one, and would not have been able to make another. Which would have shortened the series considerably.... But that's why she doesn't make them as well, now. As AD says, the she had to learn a different weave than the one she invented herself, and that has hampered her ability.

As to Gateway size, I'always gone with the idea that each channeler has a maximum size based on realized (not potential) strength in the power and/or personal "talent," but influenced by a wide collection of factors which include tiredness, need (why build an 8 x 8 gate for only yourself?), prep time, etc. I'd guess that strength in a particular ASPECT of the power plays a part, as well. If I recall, Egwene was strong in Earth, which isn't all that common for women. But it let her sense metal deposits and such. I didn't remember what went into a Gateway, but someone here said "Spirit and Fire" or just "Spirit", so I'd not be surprised that someone strong in Spirit might get a larger Gate than someone who's strength lies in an element of lesser use to the creation of the Gateway.

And Gonzo? I suspect Perrin would have found that Haitian hand cart quite useful - right up until it reached the gateway. :)

The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it. I interpret this the same way Unreasoner does -- the "dream of a dream" seems to very obviously mean Skimming Space. You need the One Power to MAKE the gate - but inside the gate is a "dream of a dream." It has so many descriptive similarities to Egwene's dreamwalking space. Your examples of things that affect gateways are nice examples of things that affect Gateways but otherwise don't seem to have much relationship to the phrase "dream of a dream." Skimming space has some manipulable qualities, similar to but less comprehensive than TAR. The Skimming Platforms, for instance. Plus the steps that Asmo inadvertently taught Rand how to use. TAR is the Dream - Skimming Space is the dream of a dream. Calling a Gateway a dream of a dream simply ... doesn't work. Not for me, anyway.

greatwolf
03-04-2012, 12:12 AM
First of all, having an angreal doesn't mean using it.


It is implied since we've already been told that gate size depends on strength. Several times. I don't see how you want to just overlook the angreal and then claim she's suddenly made a bigger gateway than before and the books are wrong?

[QUOTE]There is no mention of her drawing more again before the Gateway is opened

And no need to.

What in the world do you mean by this? Overworking with the power weakens you and reduces Gateway size. It doesn't increase it!


It doesn't. But Those observing the channeler making the gate do not know his circumstances. How fatigued he is when he makes his first gate (iirc, Perrin was one of the last to leave when they first left Cairhien) and they don't know he's been refreshed now or not. So it doesn't count at all. For Grady and Neald, we need to assess them on gateways made on days when they're not moving all of Perrin's army.

I'm also saying this means you can't use Gateway size as a measure of OP strength. Since your theory cannot explain Androl, Aviendha, Grady, Elayne and Rand, it is wrong.


There's no theory, its all in the books. And I've answered your questions here not because 'am against it, but because its flawed. At a point I actually was thinking it might be related to potential, but obviously you've only listed cases where other factors - fatigue, angreal, second weave limitation, come into play. Its good to know but it doesn't change the rule.

With every rule there are exceptions, and I would have expected you to cite LT's blocking of avi's gateway in FoH. Anyone who knows the weave can limit the size of his gateway. But not increase it. So if a forsaken makes a larger gate than someone else, we can assume he/she is stronger until proven otherwise, that is until we find some reason why someone may not be making the largest gate they can automatically.

Much the same goes for age, appearance and slowing. About the most confusing issue I know of here is Sorilea. She is suspected to be about 300 from appearance (iirc) but she's almost at the bottom in terms of channeling strength. She 's as old as Cadsuane who's much much stronger and also approaching the zenith of her life.

Even removing the effect of the oath rod, that shouldn't ordinary be so. And we can only claim lifestyle is responsible for the difference if their situations were reversed - Cadsuane living in a harsh waste land and sorilea enjoying the privileged life of an AS.

So is there a reason she's so old? First, what exactly is Sorilea's age? Does she have great knowledge of herbs or aiel healing? I'd like to know more before concluding she's an exception to the rule.

The losses I'm referring to are the women who die in their two trips to Rhuidean, as I made clear in my first post. You can't cut off a sentence and then ask for proof.
And the Aiel do cull male channelers. They go away to the Blight to die fighting the Dark One. So they're no longer reproducing and making babies.

You didn't specify the losses.

E: I mean 1 million aiel would have 10,000 channelers at 1% and 30,000 at 3%. At 60:40 female amle ratio, we'll have 6-18 thousand WOs. That's 500-1500 WOs per clan at the very least. The lower limit matches what the shaido have. But the lower limit is what RJ gave for a culled population where AS have been using contraception and removing themselves and male sparkers from the pool.

No other society does this that we know of. The seanchan remove both male and female sparkers from the pool. The ayyad remove neither and breed channelers in a very active sense. The WOs however claim to remove the male sparkers. But the WOs can marry several times and have more children due to their longevity. Likely most of the WOs get married and have children.

In a closed society, one would expect the number of channelers to increase not decrease. So there's reason for us to assume the upper limit (maybe even in the 5% i beleive i saw in some quotes that seem to have vanished :) )

So 1,500 female channelers per clan seems more realistic. And that is what makes me think the WOs only take in sparkers. That would prevent any "girls dying" because they're not taught!

greatwolf
03-04-2012, 03:44 AM
Oh I didn't make it very clear but if Beonin can make a gateway of 2x2 paces and Rand makes a 4x4, then Beonin can draw about half the OP Rand can?

The Unreasoner
03-04-2012, 04:11 AM
3 quick points on Beonin v Rand

1. Who knows what different rules govern Traveling for male and females?

2. f(x) does not need to be linear.

3. 4^2/2^2=4, not 2.

ETA:
And RE 'quite capable'

I meant physically capable, ie the weave was not particularly taxing or too difficult to weave. Which, frankly, seems to be the case with most self-taught weaves (as opposed to the 100 weaves needed to test for the shawl).

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2012, 04:33 AM
E: I mean 1 million aiel would have 10,000 channelers at 1% and 30,000 at 3%. At 60:40 female amle ratio, we'll have 6-18 thousand WOs. That's 500-1500 WOs per clan at the very least. The lower limit matches what the shaido have. But the lower limit is what RJ gave for a culled population where AS have been using contraception and removing themselves and male sparkers from the pool.

No other society does this that we know of. The seanchan remove both male and female sparkers from the pool. The ayyad remove neither and breed channelers in a very active sense. The WOs however claim to remove the male sparkers. But the WOs can marry several times and have more children due to their longevity. Likely most of the WOs get married and have children.
Nitpick: the Aiel may not remove the male channelers from the gene pool as rigorously as you're assuming.

Yes, male sparkers are sent to the Waste to die. But how quickly do they travel there, and how many children do they father on the way to their (glorious) destiny?

greatwolf
03-04-2012, 06:07 AM
@Unreasoner - you may be right.

@Gonzo, you mean like Rand and Janduin? Who knows with the WOs? It might even be delibrate!

greatwolf
03-07-2012, 05:55 AM
"Look, Reanne Corly is already checking to see if Merilille Ceandevin is returning." The familiar vertical slash of light appeared in the stableyard and rotated into a hole in the air ten feet tall and as wide.

It seems fionwe was right afterall. Matching Reanne's size with Egwene's doesn't add up at all even if you consider it to be tied to potential strength. Granted, Egwene's gate was a skimming platform, but we've not been told that makes a difference.

I checked Reanne because I thought she'd be a good reference point - knowing her strength, age, appearance and gateway size but too bad.

The Unreasoner
03-09-2012, 07:55 AM
Maybe it's an error, maybe a Skimming vs. Traveling thing, maybe the Gateway rule only applies to men. I'm not sure. I still think the Logain quote wasn't simply nonsense.


A related question (to OP strength, at least):

What's the consensus on Rand's defense of Maradon? Was that simply the never-before-seen full strength of Rand? Was it a PLE? Did Rand have an angreal or sa'angreal in his pocket?

Grig
03-09-2012, 09:33 AM
Was that simply the never-before-seen full strength of Rand?

It was seen before at Algarin's manor. It being written from his POV with the focus on keeping LTT from taking over instead of being from someone else in awe over what he's doing just changed the impression the reader walked away with. The "holy crap he just killed 100k trollocs" was kind of downplayed in the narrative.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I remember being surprised when others said that Algarin's manor was relatively similar to Maradon. If anything, I read Algarin's manor similarly to the Trolloc attack on the Two Rivers, with Maradon practically being the Last Battle.

fionwe1987
03-09-2012, 10:08 AM
They're not remotely comparable events. In Tear, Rand had the help of fifty more channelers, most of whom where able to copy his most destructive weaves. And Rand says:

It had been a close-run thing. Minus the Asha'man and Aes Sedai Logain had brought, the end might well have been different. A very close-run thing. And if there was another attack, later…? Plainly someone knew Ishamaei's trick. Or that blue-eyed man in his head really could locate him. Another attack would be larger. That, or come from some unexpected direction. Perhaps he should let Logain bring a few more Asha'man.

The numbers were much larger at Maradon. And Rand was alone. He clearly did something different.

Add to what, I think Aviendha's vision of the future has the key. Her kids say they have special skill in creating weaves. They say other channelers seem to have much less finesse. Basically, I think they're so dexterous at using there OP that they can achieve things with a lot less of the OP used than normal people can. And, they permanently "welded" to the Power.

I think thus is what we're seeing with Rand. The sunlight and flowering around him is because of a deeper connection to the True Source, which also results in him weaving the OP in a specially dexterous way. Which is why he could make fires so precise they burned the trollocs but left the fortifications intact.

Greatwolf: thanks for that quote. It seems to prove my point conclusively.

Unreasoner: do you really have to resort to "the books must be wrong" to continue to insist you're right?

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 10:22 AM
They're not remotely comparable events. In Tear, Rand had the help of fifty more channelers, most of whom where able to copy his most destructive weaves. And Rand says:

It had been a close-run thing. Minus the Asha'man and Aes Sedai Logain had brought, the end might well have been different. A very close-run thing. And if there was another attack, later…? Plainly someone knew Ishamaei's trick. Or that blue-eyed man in his head really could locate him. Another attack would be larger. That, or come from some unexpected direction. Perhaps he should let Logain bring a few more Asha'man.

The numbers were much larger at Maradon. And Rand was alone. He clearly did something different.

Add to what, I think Aviendha's vision of the future has the key. Her kids say they have special skill in creating weaves. They say other channelers seem to have much less finesse. Basically, I think they're so dexterous at using there OP that they can achieve things with a lot less of the OP used than normal people can. And, they permanently "welded" to the Power.

I think thus is what we're seeing with Rand. The sunlight and flowering around him is because of a deeper connection to the True Source, which also results in him weaving the OP in a specially dexterous way. Which is why he could make fires so precise they burned the trollocs but left the fortifications intact.

Greatwolf: thanks for that quote. It seems to prove my point conclusively.

Unreasoner: do you really have to resort to "the books must be wrong" to continue to insist you're right?

The point of the past few posts has been that the numbers were NOT significantly larger at Maradon. In both cases, they're in the 75,000 to 150,000 range. Yes, there were Draghkar and Dreadlords at Maradon.

That said, your point about the number of participating channelers is valid.

Grig
03-09-2012, 10:40 AM
The numbers were much larger at Maradon.

Not according to Sanderson.

And yes, Rand had channelers helping. Weaker channelers, who had to wait for him to do something before attempting to copy it (and not everyone has Nyn's "see a weave once to reproduce it talent). The most powerful channeler, Rand, spent most of the fight trying to keep LTT from taking over. At Maradon, that problem had been resolved.

So while Maradon is more impressive, I don't think it shows us anything "never-before-seen" from Rand, or a PLE. Sanderson even seems to be saying as much in that comment where he compares Maradon to Algarin's Manor, and points out that Jordan had been deliberately not showing Rand in combat as far back as KoD because of how powerful he was compared to everyone else.

fionwe1987
03-09-2012, 11:24 AM
The point of the past few posts has been that the numbers were NOT significantly larger at Maradon. In both cases, they're in the 75,000 to 150,000 range. Yes, there were Draghkar and Dreadlords at Maradon.

That said, your point about the number of participating channelers is valid.

Sorry, that just isn't true. Ituralde says the numbers were large enough that nothing in Saldea, Andor and Arad Doman could stop it. Arad Sinan fielded about a hundred thousand soldiers, and even with the depletion of this force, and that of Saldea, these, combined with Andor's strength should easily take on 150,000 trollocs.

Not according to Sanderson.

And yes, Rand had channelers helping. Weaker channelers, who had to wait for him to do something before attempting to copy it (and not everyone has Nyn's "see a weave once to reproduce it talent). The most powerful channeler, Rand, spent most of the fight trying to keep LTT from taking over. At Maradon, that problem had been resolved.
Rand spent no time fighting LTT for control that wasn't also spent by LTT laying waste to Trollocs. And Logain, who's nearly add strong as him, did see his weaves and copy them right away. And all the Asha'man copied his Blossoms of Fire. And Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Alivia, none of whom are weak by any stretch, were also helping. As were any number of Asha'man and Aes Sedai, some of whom might have been linked.

So while Maradon is more impressive, I don't think it shows us anything "never-before-seen" from Rand, or a PLE. Sanderson even seems to be saying as much in that comment where he compares Maradon to Algarin's Manor, and points out that Jordan had been deliberately not showing Rand in combat as far back as KoD because of how powerful he was compared to everyone else.
It may not be a PLE, but Rand has certainly done nothing like it. Sanderson only seems to be denying that the Pattern got involved at . Rand has certainly never come close to doing what he did there before. What Brandon is saying is that its a profession from before, and did not come out of nowhere.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 11:42 AM
Sorry, that just isn't true. Ituralde says the numbers were large enough that nothing in Saldea, Andor and Arad Doman could stop it. Arad Sinan fielded about a hundred thousand soldiers, and even with the depletion of this force, and that of Saldea, these, combined with Andor's strength should easily take on 150,000 trollocs.


Well, the book says "tens of thousands" of dead Trollocs at the end of it. You'd expect to hear "hundreds of thousands" if he were above the 250,000 range.

That combined with what Sanderson said, leads me to think that it's just the way that it's described that gives you that feeling of scope, not the actual events themselves.

The Unreasoner
03-09-2012, 12:21 PM
While I will come back (maybe even with quotes) to reply to the points raised in this thread, I'll make two quick points now:

@Seth
Not really feeling your interpretation of events. I much prefer fionwe's, especially with the reference to Avi's children. But I asked for opinions, and you delivered. We'll see how it all plays out.


@fionwe
Well, I was actually just being gracious, I thought. I acknowledged the preceding post's title. I did raise other alternative explanations.

Grig
03-09-2012, 12:50 PM
but Rand has certainly done nothing like it. Sanderson only seems to be denying that the Pattern got involved at . Rand has certainly never come close to doing what he did there before.

I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight].

'kay. I don't have much more to add, since the topic isn't all that interesting. Just wanted to point it out, but if you want to deny it that's fine.

As to how many Trollocs there are based on them being able to overrun the borderlands, you're assuming that a trolloc is equally matched by a single infantry or cavalry soldier. That seems very unlikely to be the case. They're cowards, sure, but rile them up and they have significant weight, strength, and stamina benefits over the average soldier. Small numbers of humans can hold them back at chokepoints like Tarwin's Gap, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't ravage through humans in the open field of battle. Why are you adding "Andor's strength" when that wouldn't affect whether or not the Borderlands would be overrun? Especially since the Borderlanders took a huge part of their force away from the Borderlands? A stiff Evil wind could have overrun the Borderlands, if their main choke points and outposts failed.

greatwolf
03-09-2012, 02:24 PM
Here's the full report:

LOIALSON
Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [Brandon smiles]

Rand's channeling at the temple isn't explained in the books. Is it just skill or has he jumped in strength? But even accounting for skill and strength, he channeled for about an hour or more, unaided and unopposed? A little unrealistic unless its a taveren thing.

@fionwe1987: Unreasoner has a point. It was in the books (Logain) that channeling strength was proportional to gateway size. He isn't making it up. But we must account for the discrepancies. If there's no error then there should be an explanation. Was Logain wrong?

We've seen that different weaves for travelling produces different sizes of gateways. And aviendha's travelling has a huge RAFO on it. But explanations or not, it makes my task difficult. Can I place Rand above Egwene in strength because he makes a bigger gateway? or I have to rely on something else.

For instance Demandred:

In a way, "almost" and "not quite" had been the story of Demandred’s life. He had had the misfortune to be born one day after Lews Therin Telamon, who would become the Dragon, while Barid Bel Medar, as he was then, spent years almost matching Lews Therin’s accomplishments, not quite matching Lews Therin’s fame. Without Lews Therin,

It should be easy to pin down his age from this. And if we know the size of his gateway and Taim's then we could say "hey he isn't strong enough to be Demandred". Of course we must also keep in mind that LTT and Demandred may be able to limit gateway size. But if gateway size is irrelevant, and age/appearance depends on how stressed you are, then we can't make any useful comparism.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 02:43 PM
It should be easy to pin down his age from this. And if we know the size of his gateway and Taim's then we could say "hey he isn't strong enough to be Demandred". Of course we must also keep in mind that LTT and Demandred may be able to limit gateway size. But if gateway size is irrelevant, and age/appearance depends on how stressed you are, then we can't make any useful comparism.

I think they must be able to control gateway size. I'm pretty sure that when the Forsaken are hopping between one another's hiding places, they're not opening 4 meter wide gateways in the middle of somebody else's room. At least, that's my intuition, though I admit I don't have any textual basis for that claim.

greatwolf
03-09-2012, 03:05 PM
I think they must be able to control gateway size. I'm pretty sure that when the Forsaken are hopping between one another's hiding places, they're not opening 4 meter wide gateways in the middle of somebody else's room. At least, that's my intuition, though I admit I don't have any textual basis for that claim.

Therefore with the exception of the forsaken, can we say gateway size proportional to strength? In terms intuition, Mat's seems to be thinking the same about the gateway that took him to Ebou Dar. He probably thought channelers could vary its size at will. And that sounds suspiciously like RJ rebuffing the idea while giving himself room to make changes in future.

Grig
03-09-2012, 03:16 PM
Therefore with the exception of the forsaken, can we say gateway size proportional to strength?

Seems more apt to say with the only known exceptions of Avi and Androl that maximum gateway size is proportional to strength. No reason has been given to assume that the same person always opens gateways of the same size. Just that they have upper limits. And while Androl is a bit of a freak, he can open up tiny gateways to do manual cutting tasks. There's no reason to assume other channelers are incapable of this, they just have less need as they are more adept at channeling everything but gateways than Androl is.

There are several cases where people are told to open gateways of certain sizes ("big enough for X/Y/Z"). This sort of instruction would be meaningless if they had a single gate size they utilized, tied proportionally to their strength in the Power.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 03:36 PM
Seems more apt to say with the only known exceptions of Avi and Androl that maximum gateway size is proportional to strength. No reason has been given to assume that the same person always opens gateways of the same size. Just that they have upper limits. And while Androl is a bit of a freak, he can open up tiny gateways to do manual cutting tasks. There's no reason to assume other channelers are incapable of this, they just have less need as they are more adept at channeling everything but gateways than Androl is.

There are several cases where people are told to open gateways of certain sizes ("big enough for X/Y/Z"). This sort of instruction would be meaningless if they had a single gate size they utilized, tied proportionally to their strength in the Power.

Well said.

The Unreasoner
03-10-2012, 04:39 AM
I thought everyone accepted as a given that Gateway size is arbitrary to a point...

But since we're on the topic, is it said anywhere that the Egwene Skimming Gateway currently under scrutiny was her maximum?

GonzoTheGreat
03-10-2012, 04:58 AM
But since we're on the topic, is it said anywhere that the Egwene Skimming Gateway currently under scrutiny was her maximum?
Nah, it is just assumed that if she could have made a bigger one, then she would have done so, because that would have been a lot more convenient for her friends. Either it was her maximum, or she was being a jerk.

fionwe1987
03-10-2012, 07:03 PM
Well, the book says "tens of thousands" of dead Trollocs at the end of it. You'd expect to hear "hundreds of thousands" if he were above the 250,000 range.

That combined with what Sanderson said, leads me to think that it's just the way that it's described that gives you that feeling of scope, not the actual events themselves.

It says tens of thousands of smoldering trollocs, which isn't the full count, since many were flung away by tornadoes, struck by lightning, etc.

And do note that Ituralde says the "awesome" force coming down the pass was " many times the number that assaulted Maradon". And that initial number was itself huge, outnumbering many times the roughly 100,000 strong army of Ituralde. So Rand faced half million trollocs at least, not to mention who knows how many draghkar.

As to how many Trollocs there are based on them being able to overrun the borderlands, you're assuming that a trolloc is equally matched by a single infantry or cavalry soldier. That seems very unlikely to be the case. They're cowards, sure, but rile them up and they have significant weight, strength, and stamina benefits over the average soldier. Small numbers of humans can hold them back at chokepoints like Tarwin's Gap, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't ravage through humans in the open field of battle. Why are you adding "Andor's strength" when that wouldn't affect whether or not the Borderlands would be overrun? Especially since the Borderlanders took a huge part of their force away from the Borderlands? A stiff Evil wind could have overrun the Borderlands, if their main choke points and outposts failed.

Ituralde said nothing in Saldea, Arad Doman or Andor would be able to stop the force coming down the pass. Andor's strength is definitely relevant to that!

And why would you assume that Ituralde's assessment is about humans vs. trollocs in an open field? The military commanders and structure of all these countries is among the best in the world. None of them will be idiotic enough to face a superior number of trollocs in an open field. Yet, Ituralde thinks Andor's 200,000 soldiers and whatever Saldea and Arad Doman can field will not be able to stop this army that you claim is only about a hundred thousand strong...


@fionwe1987: Unreasoner has a point. It was in the books (Logain) that channeling strength was proportional to gateway size. He isn't making it up. But we must account for the discrepancies. If there's no error then there should be an explanation. Was Logain wrong?
He certainly was. As I showed, he was aware of Androl when he made this statement, yet failed to consider that in his assessment of Rand's gateways.

We've seen that different weaves for travelling produces different sizes of gateways. And aviendha's travelling has a huge RAFO on it. But explanations or not, it makes my task difficult. Can I place Rand above Egwene in strength because he makes a bigger gateway? or I have to rely on something else.

You have to rely on something else, especially since we haven't seen her weave her maximum sized gateway, and all we know is that Reanne Corly can weave one larger than the one Egwene wove, despite being much weaker...


Therefore with the exception of the forsaken, can we say gateway size proportional to strength?.
No you cannot. Unless you think that Reanne is 70% of Rand's strength because her 100 square foot gateway is 70% the size if Rand's 144 sq.ft. one!

And all channelers can vary gateway sizes. Nyneave does so in KoD, and Egwene obviously didn't weave a 64 sq.ft. gateway into the tiny angreal storeroom!

suttree
03-10-2012, 08:49 PM
It says tens of thousands of smoldering trollocs, which isn't the full count, since many were flung away by tornadoes, struck by lightning, etc.

And do note that Ituralde says the "awesome" force coming down the pass was " many times the number that assaulted Maradon". And that initial number was itself huge, outnumbering many times the roughly 100,000 strong army of Ituralde. So Rand faced half million trollocs at least, not to mention who knows how many draghkar.


BS's quote makes it very clear that your number is way off base. As for the way they were killed lightning could still make them smolder and the tornadoes had fire involved...

TGS
Great waterspouts rose behind, made of flesh and fire. The beasts rained down, falling upon the others. Ituralde watched with awe, the hair on his arms and head rising. There was an energy to the very air itself.

No one is disputing the size of the force but we also know that...

TGS
Waves of Trollocs broke, the drums faltering. Entire legions of them turned and fled, stumbling up the hillside and over one another, fleeing back toward the Blight.

BS said Rand killed about as many at the manor house as he did at Maradon and the book describes tens of thousands dead. He killed nowhere near half a million.

fionwe1987
03-10-2012, 10:23 PM
BS's quote makes it very clear that your number is way off base. As for the way they were killed lightning could still make them smolder and the tornadoes had fire involved...

TGS


No one is disputing the size of the force but we also know that...

TGS


BS said Rand killed about as many at the manor house as he did at Maradon and the book describes tens of thousands dead. He killed nowhere near half a million.
So, to clarify, Rand killed, at most, around 90,000 trollocs? If you read the whole chapter, Ituralde says he killed a few thousand in the first few minutes, and the whole thing lasted quite a while, definitely more than an hour (since when Ituralde looked, the position of the sun had definitely changed noticeably).

Now, if BS were to come out an say the description was a little wrong, and the numbers killed were far smaller, that is one thing. It is entirely another when what he says directly contradicts the text with no caveats added. Its like taking him at his word that Cyndane is much weaker than Lanfear (which he retracted later). I'll definitely take his word if we had a direct quote with a decent explanation for what he means. Till then, I'm going to go with what the text shows...

suttree
03-10-2012, 10:45 PM
So, to clarify, Rand killed, at most, around 90,000 trollocs? If you read the whole chapter, Ituralde says he killed a few thousand in the first few minutes, and the whole thing lasted quite a while, definitely more than an hour (since when Ituralde looked, the position of the sun had definitely changed noticeably).

Now, if BS were to come out an say the description was a little wrong, and the numbers killed were far smaller, that is one thing. It is entirely another when what he says directly contradicts the text with no caveats added. Its like taking him at his word that Cyndane is much weaker than Lanfear (which he retracted later). I'll definitely take his word if we had a direct quote with a decent explanation for what he means. Till then, I'm going to go with what the text shows...

and the texts shows "tens of thousands dead" and "entire legions" escaping. That backed up by the quote is good enough for me.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 10:47 PM
and the texts shows "tens of thousands dead" and "entire legions" escaping. That backed up by the quote is good enough for me.

Yeah - your problem, fionwe, is that you're refusing to believe it based upon the misconceptions that you're bringing. You're ignoring the ones that retreated, ignoring the fact that RJ/BS frequently write characters who are wrong (so "no force in Andor/Arad Doman/etc." is not necessarily literal or true"), and focusing on the epic way that it's written.

fionwe1987
03-10-2012, 11:21 PM
Except thousands were killed in the first few minutes.

greatwolf
03-10-2012, 11:35 PM
Yeah - your problem, fionwe, is that you're refusing to believe it based upon the misconceptions that you're bringing. You're ignoring the ones that retreated, ignoring the fact that RJ/BS frequently write characters who are wrong (so "no force in Andor/Arad Doman/etc." is not necessarily literal or true"), and focusing on the epic way that it's written.

But expecting a general to be wrong about the size of a force like that is something else entirely. Unless you're building up a case of incompetence against him, I'd advise you drop this aspect of your defense. Its unrealistic and only complicates plot issues.


I thought everyone accepted as a given that Gateway size is arbitrary to a point...

We have. But does the evidence support it? We can account for some aberrations like Androl, Aviendha, the angreal and different sizes for skimming and Travelling, but we might just be trying to excuse what should be readily apparent: gateway size isn't fixed or abitary.

FWIW, there's no conclusive proof that the position is wrong. Just enough questions on it. For instance if we say gate size proportional to maximum potential strength, then it should be possible to tell what a given man's strength would be even before he achieves it contrary to some interview quotes(RJ iirc).

But that said, Logain said he copied Rand weave exactly. That his deathgates turned out smaller despite using the same weave can only be account for by difference in strength that I know of. And difference in current strength at that. Its about the only example of a channeler copying a Travelling weave exactly in the series. And RJ did say it was a difficult thing to get two gateways to be precisely identical but we know (also from KoD) that Logain can do some really difficult stuff with gateways like the one to the deck of the seafolk ship.

Turane slipped into the cabin and bowed to Zaida. “The Coramoor’s emissary has arrived, Shipmistress. He… he stepped out of a gateway on the quarterdeck.” That created murmurs among the Windfinders, and Amylia jerked as though she had felt the deckmas-ter’s flail again.
“I hope he did not damage your deck too badly, Turane,” Zaida said. Harine sipped wine to hide her small smile. Apparently the man was to be made to wait a little, at least.
“Not at all, Shipmistress.” Turane sounded surprised. “The gateway opened a good foot above the deck, and he stepped through from one of the city’s docks.”
“Yes,” Shalon whispered. “I can see how to do that.” She thought anything to do with the Power was wonderful

suttree
03-10-2012, 11:39 PM
Except thousands were killed in the first few minutes.

I don't think it necessarily matters given the strength of support I have for my position but not sure where you are getting the time frame of minutes? That is never stated in the text, Ituralde does not say that as you claim in the other post.

Time is only mentioned when Ituralde looks at the sun and thinks an hour has passed and that it seemed like seconds.

fionwe1987
03-11-2012, 12:06 AM
I don't think it necessarily matters given the strength of support I have for my position but not sure where you are getting the time frame of minutes? That is never stated in the text, Ituralde does not say that as you claim in the other post.

Time is only mentioned when Ituralde looks at the sun and thinks an hour has passed and that it seemed like seconds.
Sorry, but you need to read that again. Rand starts weaving, Ituralde talks about thousands of Shadowspawn dying, then Naeff comments that he has never seen so many weaves at once. And this is before the clouts start forming mini-tornadoes to carry away Shadowspawn.

Unless you think Naeff saw Rand's weaves, waited for half an hour, and then exclaimed in surprise that he hadn't ever seen so many weaves, I'm afraid there's no other explanation for it.

And let us keep in mind that no one in KoD was saying that they had never seen so many weaves at once before. No one was commenting on the very air having an energy. No one was commenting on the miraculous precision of Rand's weaves that left the Trollocs dead but everything else untouched. No Dakrfriends were committing suicide...

So I really fail to see why people think these are comparable events at all. Quite apart from routing a Trolloc horde large enough to devastate three huge nations, according to one of the world's best generals, Rand was doing something that made Darkfriends want to die, and others feel a sense of awe they have never felt before. And he was being extremely precise with his work, like never before.


FWIW, there's no conclusive proof that the position is wrong. Just enough questions on it. For instance if we say gate size proportional to maximum potential strength, then it should be possible to tell what a given man's strength would be even before he achieves it contrary to some interview quotes(RJ iirc).
Precisely. Yet that is not even considered by any number of male channelers we have seen.

But that said, Logain said he copied Rand weave exactly. That his deathgates turned out smaller despite using the same weave can only be account for by difference in strength that I know of.
Not necessarily. Ability in the Dreamworld may have something to do with it, if Asmodean is to be believed. And if, as he says, every man sets his own limits, maybe Logain set his by just expecting his Gateways to be smaller than Rand's.

And difference in current strength at that. Its about the only example of a channeler copying a Travelling weave exactly in the series. And RJ did say it was a difficult thing to get two gateways to be precisely identical but we know (also from KoD) that Logain can do some really difficult stuff with gateways like the one to the deck of the seafolk ship.
That isn't difficult at all. Why would you think it is? Because no one has tried it before? They never had need to.

As for copying Gateways, we have seen exactly three people able to do it. Rand reads Sammael's residues and copies it (though he makes a small change so he won't drop on top of him), and follows Asmodean so he can see him at the Skimming world (something which Egwene says is very hard to do, though in a way that implies she can do so). Egwene herself remembers Elayne's weave to Altara a few weeks after she saw it woven and replicates it enough to drop Lan at the same clearing that Elayne and co. ended in. And Aviendha implies that she has the skill to copy a Gateway to its exact location.

It is likely several of the Foresaken can do this, and probably strong Dreamwalkers who're channelers and also channelers who have very great precision and skill with their weaving. Elayne, for example, is unable to copy Reanne's weaves, and has shown herself to be somewhat less skilled than Egwene and Aviendha at other times.

So as far as reaching precise locations and copying others' locations, strength doesn't seem to enter into it. Its great skill that seems to matter.

suttree
03-11-2012, 12:23 AM
Sorry, but you need to read that again. Rand starts weaving, Ituralde talks about thousands of Shadowspawn dying, then Naeff comments that he has never seen so many weaves at once. And this is before the clouts start forming mini-tornadoes to carry away Shadowspawn.

Unless you think Naeff saw Rand's weaves, waited for half an hour, and then exclaimed in surprise that he hadn't ever seen so many weaves, I'm afraid there's no other explanation for it.

And let us keep in mind that no one in KoD was saying that they had never seen so many weaves at once before. No one was commenting on the very air having an energy. No one was commenting on the miraculous precision of Rand's weaves that left the Trollocs dead but everything else untouched. No Dakrfriends were committing suicide...

So I really fail to see why people think these are comparable events at all.

People think they are comparable because the author flat out said they are and the only time body counts are mentioned the numbers are the close to the same. Not to mention the whole BS quote was based around him saying Rand had already powered up by KoD and that's why we don't see that much of him in action.

You can't just ignore what is written and an author quote and offer a guess based on a time frame that you are entirely making up. You claim Ituralde stated thousands died in the "first few minutes" but that never happened. You state Rand starts weaving and then Ituralde immediately makes the thousands comment but that isn't how it happened. The comment is made after two paragraphs describing different types of weaves. At this point Rand starts yet another type of weave(light and power) and Ituralde makes the comment, this falls a bit before half way through the fight scene. The point is we don't have to make any guesses, the text and author tell us what happened.

fionwe1987
03-11-2012, 12:28 AM
People think they are comparable because the author flat out said they are and the only time body counts are mentioned the numbers are the close to the same. Not to mention the whole BS quote was based around him saying Rand had already powered up by KoD and that's why we don't see that much of him in action.

You can't just ignore what is written and an author quote and offer a guess based on a time frame that you are entirely making up. You claim Ituralde stated thousands died in the "first few minutes" but that never happened. You state Rand starts weaving and then Ituralde immediately makes the thousands comment but that isn't how it happened. The comment is made after two paragraphs describing different types of weaves. At this point Rand starts yet another type of weave(light and power) and Ituralde makes the comment, this falls a bit before half way through the fight scene. The point is we don't have to make any guesses, the text and author tell us what happened.
But this is Brandon commenting, not RJ. He has (understandably) made mistakes before. Why is this fight even called the battle of the temple, by the way? Is Brandon even referring to the same event? And you can dispute the timeline, but you've got to give me more than "you're wrong".

And I've shown you any number of ways Rand did things in ToM that are completely unlike how he did them in KoD. Not the least of which is that he did alone what thirty channelers did in KoD!

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2012, 05:35 AM
So, to clarify, Rand killed, at most, around 90,000 trollocs? If you read the whole chapter, Ituralde says he killed a few thousand in the first few minutes, and the whole thing lasted quite a while, definitely more than an hour (since when Ituralde looked, the position of the sun had definitely changed noticeably).
(Thought) experiment for armchair generals:

Consider a big opposing force, which thinks it is on the verge of victory. They're charging forward, eager to kill the last remaining opponents. Then hit them with massive amounts of machine gun fire. What happens?

My guess is that in the initial moments, they suffer huge losses, then they scatter, drop down, and generally do whatever helps to make them less of a target, thus reducing their casualty rates per time period.

Now, I admit that this is not always how it goes. The fight at the manor is an example where the Trollocs kept charging right until the end, and thus could be expected to have suffered more or less similar casualties throughout. But this battle is described more as what I would consider standard, (see above), and thus the highest losses would fall at the beginning.

Note: if Rand had planned it properly, then he would have had a force ready for pursuit when the enemy was routed. That way, their losses would have been a lot higher still, as they could then not get away from being killed. In many battles the biggest slaughter happened after the fighting was effectively over.

greatwolf
03-11-2012, 07:54 AM
Note: if Rand had planned it properly, then he would have had a force ready for pursuit when the enemy was routed. That way, their losses would have been a lot higher still, as they could then not get away from being killed. In many battles the biggest slaughter happened after the fighting was effectively over.

Therefore it wasn't Rand, it must have been Egwene who routed trollocs at Maradon and let most escape.

Seriously? IDK, but I'll consider some issues.

1. Timeline: If Rand channeled long enough for a change in the sun's position to be noticeable, then he was at it way too long. What were the other ashaman doing? Took a seat to watch? Everyone who came with Rand just sat back and watched him? Really.

2. Rand's strength: BS insists Rand has come up in strength in the last few books. That might be expected. I recall Merise's comments about Jahar having gained since Shadar Logoth. And Jahar was only using Callandor though he held it for most of a day. But Rand channeled all of saidin within the space of 12 hours or so. He may have jumped to his limit. That's neat.

But Rand himself says in KoD that Logain and co were close behind:

He felt Logain and the other two men seize saidin, filling themselves with it. Logain held almost as much as he could have himself, Narishma and Sandomere somewhat less. They were the strongest among the other Asha’man, though,

So if Rand is super powerful by KoD as BS suggests, then so is Logain. And the others are not far from him.

Unless there's some other way to interpret powerful? If not I'll advise we clarify those statements before we read too much into them. Its likely BS wasn't talking about what we're inferring here. If Rand has accepted LTT, his skill levels might have jumped seriously (though BS should have said since tGS not KoD) and we should expect quite a bit more. Yet I didn't notice a new weave or new weave effect. Just same old wind, fire lightning and stuff. Maybe on a bigger scale and possibly longer than we've seen before, but still wind, fire and lightning. So MAFO or RAFO.

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't think they're comparable events - Rand is described completely differently. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on based on the pure number of Trollocs killed - it's effectively the same number that were killed in KOD. Instead of exterminating a force of maybe 100,000; he decimated (or, more accurately, severely weakened and routed) a much larger force. Instead of doing so with numerous channelers, he did so alone. Instead of doing so while struggling with the Lews Therin aspect of his personality, he did it in full integration. Instead of being cold and hard, he was glowing visibly with the Light to the eyes of a non-channeler. Darkfriends tore out their eyes rather than see that Light through a wall.

So, no, on the whole, I don't think they're similar events. But that has nothing to do with the number of Trollocs - where I see no reason to think that this force was any more than 400-500k (with Rand only killing 100-150k), and there are ample reasons to think that it is that size or smaller.

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 10:07 AM
T
Unless there's some other way to interpret powerful? If not I'll advise we clarify those statements before we read too much into them. Its likely BS wasn't talking about what we're inferring here. If Rand has accepted LTT, his skill levels might have jumped seriously (though BS should have said since tGS not KoD) and we should expect quite a bit more. Yet I didn't notice a new weave or new weave effect. Just same old wind, fire lightning and stuff. Maybe on a bigger scale and possibly longer than we've seen before, but still wind, fire and lightning. So MAFO or RAFO.

Yes, but (at least for me), that's not what this argument has come down to. It's come down to you saying that the number of Trollocs killed in the engagement must be higher (because of how Rand is described), and therefore he is more powerful. I disagree, and merely think that he's become more powerful because of how he's described.

suttree
03-11-2012, 11:11 AM
But this is Brandon commenting, not RJ. He has (understandably) made mistakes before. Why is this fight even called the battle of the temple, by the way? Is Brandon even referring to the same event? And you can dispute the timeline, but you've got to give me more than "you're wrong".


Errmm I didn't just say you're wrong, I showed that what you were basing the time frame off is false. BTW the "few minutes" is something you have entirely fabricated. It is not on me to prove it either way.

As for the same event yes, Brandon specifies what he is referring to and it is noted in the quote.

fionwe1987
03-11-2012, 11:48 AM
(Thought) experiment for armchair generals:

Consider a big opposing force, which thinks it is on the verge of victory. They're charging forward, eager to kill the last remaining opponents. Then hit them with massive amounts of machine gun fire. What happens?

My guess is that in the initial moments, they suffer huge losses, then they scatter, drop down, and generally do whatever helps to make them less of a target, thus reducing their casualty rates per time period.

Now, I admit that this is not always how it goes. The fight at the manor is an example where the Trollocs kept charging right until the end, and thus could be expected to have suffered more or less similar casualties throughout. But this battle is described more as what I would consider standard, (see above), and thus the highest losses would fall at the beginning.

Note: if Rand had planned it properly, then he would have had a force ready for pursuit when the enemy was routed. That way, their losses would have been a lot higher still, as they could then not get away from being killed. In many battles the biggest slaughter happened after the fighting was effectively over.
I thought about that. The problem with this line of reasoning is that based on Ituralde's report of the events, this can't be true. He says the "tempest if destruction" reached a peak after the trollocs began to break.


Yes, but (at least for me), that's not what this argument has come down to. It's come down to you saying that the number of Trollocs killed in the engagement must be higher (because of how Rand is described), and therefore he is more powerful. I disagree, and merely think that he's become more powerful because of how he's described.
That its not the case at all. No one is saying his strength has increased. We're saying his skill has. Enormously so.

Look at the facts:
1) In KoD, he's not confident that he, Cadsuane+ angreal, Nynaeve+ angreal, Alivia, Narishma and some other weaker AS and AM could have defeated a 100,000 trollocs. That's one channeler stronger than him, one who is just about his strength, two who at least come close to him, and a few others. In ToM, he single-handedly faces a much larger force and defeated them (no matter the actual number of the dead)! That itself is proof enough that something major has happened to his channeling abilities.

2) In KoD, he weaves about 13 webs at once. Impressive, but Egwene has already shown herself capable of exceeding that. In ToM, Naeff is unable to track the huge number of weaves Rand is spinning. That is an enormous number of weaves from one guy, and till now has been used in the series as a sign of enormous skill.

3) Go look at the map of Maradon in the book. Rand us standing near the northern gate, and the distance from there to the hill camps is about add much as the length of the city itself. That's at least a couple of leagues. Yet, Rand's fires start from the gate and reach all the way into the trenches on the hills! Not only that, but the fires are so precise they kill the trollocs but leave the fortifications intact...

All this is a pretty enormous difference from KoD, which invalidates what Brandon said about events in KoD preparing us for what Rand did in ToM.

The Unreasoner
03-11-2012, 12:03 PM
It's pretty clear that the channeling in the defense of Maradon is on another level entirely. The question isn't so much the degree of difference, it's of the cause. Is it simply what Rand should have been, with his now-superior knowledge and the absence of the Lews Therin 'distraction'? Is something more profound at work? Or mundane (angreal)?

Unless you think that Reanne is 70% of Rand's strength because her 100 square foot gateway is 70% the size if Rand's 144 sq.ft. one!

As I told greatwolf: men and women may fall along different spectra, and the function need not be linear in any case (s=x^.5, or even like s=k^-x)

fionwe1987
03-11-2012, 12:09 PM
As I told greatwolf: men and women may fall along different spectra, and the function need not be linear in any case (s=x^.5, or even like s=k^-x)
If men and women fall under different spectra, using gateway size to compare strength its pointless no?

And sure, you could say the scaling isn't longest, but what is your evidence for that?

The Unreasoner
03-11-2012, 12:30 PM
If men and women fall under different spectra, using gateway size to compare strength its pointless no?
Not within the individual populations, obviously. Comparing men to women is complex enough to render it pointless.
And sure, you could say the scaling isn't longest, but what is your evidence for that?
I have no idea what this means.

suttree
03-11-2012, 02:16 PM
Look at the facts:
1) In KoD, he's not confident that he, Cadsuane+ angreal, Nynaeve+ angreal, Alivia, Narishma and some other weaker AS and AM could have defeated a 100,000 trollocs. That's one channeler stronger than him, one who is just about his strength, two who at least come close to him, and a few others. In ToM, he single-handedly faces a much larger force and defeated them (no matter the actual number of the dead)! That itself is proof enough that something major has happened to his channeling abilities.


I have no problem with him having gotten more powerful post KoD(although Brandon claims he already had powered up by that point), I also have no problem with the size of the force he defeated. I was speaking purely to the kill count. In a scene in which we are supposed to be in total awe, why would he only describe a small fraction of those Rand killed?

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 02:37 PM
That's one channeler stronger than him, one who is just about his strength, two who at least come close to him, and a few others.

I'm not going to significantly address the other points because we clearly disagree and we're not going to resolve it with the points that you raised; I can reply to your map argument by pointing out that there's no telling how dense the Trollocs were spread over that space.

However, the quote I left, I'm assuming must be a mistake? None of the channelers there were stronger than Rand. If there's anyone alive that's stronger than him, it's Moridin - but they're probably evenly matched. None of the Light forces is at Rand's level, certainly none are stronger, and none are as strong.

Kimon
03-11-2012, 02:52 PM
However, the quote I left, I'm assuming must be a mistake? None of the channelers there were stronger than Rand. If there's anyone alive that's stronger than him, it's Moridin - but they're probably evenly matched. None of the Light forces is at Rand's level, certainly none are stronger, and none are as strong.

Presumably fionwe is referring to augmented strength, and is assuming that Nynaeve+angreal is stronger than Rand, which is certainly possible considering the strength of her angreal. Cadsuane's angreal was significantly weaker than Nynaeve's, but still might have been enough to bump her up to near to matching Rand. The main difference between here and later at Maradon may simply be due to the fact that prior to Dragonmount, his imaginary friend was acting almost as a wilder block. Doubtless channeling becomes a bit more fluid when one isn't locked in a power struggle with a suicidal figment of one's own imagination.

fionwe1987
03-11-2012, 03:57 PM
I have no problem with him having gotten more powerful post KoD(although Brandon claims he already had powered up by that point), I also have no problem with the size of the force he defeated. I was speaking purely to the kill count. In a scene in which we are supposed to be in total awe, why would he only describe a small fraction of those Rand killed?
Who said only a fraction is described? Tens of thousands is not a term that can be used to describe 150-200k trollocs?


I'm not going to significantly address the other points because we clearly disagree and we're not going to resolve it with the points that you raised; I can reply to your map argument by pointing out that there's no telling how dense the Trollocs were spread over that space.

We have referencesb to trollocs clogging the heights, waves of them, massive forces, clouds of draghkar, etc. All of which indicate a high density of shadowspawn.

And nice cop out on the other points...

However, the quote I left, I'm assuming must be a mistake? None of the channelers there were stronger than Rand. If there's anyone alive that's stronger than him, it's Moridin - but they're probably evenly matched. None of the Light forces is at Rand's level, certainly none are stronger, and none are as strong.
I was referring to Nynaeve and her angreal.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 07:31 AM
Yes, but (at least for me), that's not what this argument has come down to. It's come down to you saying that the number of Trollocs killed in the engagement must be higher (because of how Rand is described), and therefore he is more powerful. I disagree, and merely think that he's become more powerful because of how he's described.


Not at all. I was speaking of KoD and the BS quote, you're talking of Maradon. I was thinking that there was something going on at the Maradon encounter, maybe something like Cadsuane's terangreal that makes her weaves more effective against shadowspawn, but the BS tossed me a little off stride.

Presumably fionwe is referring to augmented strength, and is assuming that Nynaeve+angreal is stronger than Rand, which is certainly possible considering the strength of her angreal. Cadsuane's angreal was significantly weaker than Nynaeve's, but still might have been enough to bump her up to near to matching Rand

Many here still assume Rand = LTT when it comes to strength. Well as per RJ, LTT was 3 levels above the highest women's levels based on pure strength. That's a lot of ground for an angreal to make up.

Moreover, we know nyn isn't at the top of the women's scale, maybe level 2 (equivalent to level 5 for men?). I don't realistically see an angreal taking anyone up 5 levels.And Elayne said (tPoD) that angreal made her twice as strong as nyn who is a level above her.

That doesn't mean the angreal didn't make nyn stronger than Rand though, but certainly it won't bring her up to LTT, no matter what.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Not at all. I was speaking of KoD and the BS quote, you're talking of Maradon. I was thinking that there was something going on at the Maradon encounter, maybe something like Cadsuane's terangreal that makes her weaves more effective against shadowspawn, but the BS tossed me a little off stride.



Many here still assume Rand = LTT when it comes to strength. Well as per RJ, LTT was 3 levels above the highest women's levels based on pure strength. That's a lot of ground for an angreal to make up.

Moreover, we know nyn isn't at the top of the women's scale, maybe level 2 (equivalent to level 5 for men?). I don't realistically see an angreal taking anyone up 5 levels.And Elayne said (tPoD) that angreal made her twice as strong as nyn who is a level above her.

That doesn't mean the angreal didn't make nyn stronger than Rand though, but certainly it won't bring her up to LTT, no matter what.

I believe the Thirteenth Depository's analysis is correct - Nynaeve is in the fourth tier of female channelers.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

An angreal can drastically increase power, but the distance between her and male first tier Rand is a big one. Lanfear is Rand's equal or slightly stronger than him in TFOH, when she has an angreal. Rand's grown since then. And we know that Nynaeve's strength has not matched Lanfear's.

Based on that, I agree with you - I just think the gap between Nynaeve and Rand is even bigger than you credit with your argument.

Grig
03-12-2012, 10:39 AM
I don't think they're comparable events - Rand is described completely differently.

This was pretty much what I was trying to attack. Of course "Rand is described completely differently"! He isn't described in KoD, he's the point of view character! So we don't see "Dear God, he's channeling 8 different instances of five different kinds of weaves simultaneously!" We see "Damnit, Lews Therin, give me the power back"!

They are specifically framed to give different impressions. Yet if the body counts are about the same, and we know we was doing several different things at once over a large area, there's not much ground to claim he made a quantum leap forward. He wasn't sure he could fight off the Trollocs at Algarin's because 1) he was surprise-attacked and they were already on his ass and 2) he wasn't Zen yet, with his Aes Sedai equanimity. If he was able to gateway away a significant distance and then start nuking the Trollocs, along with LTT's knowledge of weaves and not having to worry about puking his guts out when touching the Power, we have little reason to believe the outcome would have been significantly different in KoD than in ToM.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 10:43 AM
Many here still assume Rand = LTT when it comes to strength. Well as per RJ, LTT was 3 levels above the highest women's levels based on pure strength. That's a lot of ground for an angreal to make up.

Moreover, we know nyn isn't at the top of the women's scale, maybe level 2 (equivalent to level 5 for men?). I don't realistically see an angreal taking anyone up 5 levels.And Elayne said (tPoD) that angreal made her twice as strong as nyn who is a level above her.

That doesn't mean the angreal didn't make nyn stronger than Rand though, but certainly it won't bring her up to LTT, no matter what.
Oh for the love of the Light! I can't believe that so many pages into this discussion, there's still this kind of ignorance.

RJ said there were 3 levels between the strongest female and male channelers, yes, but he also said to remember that effectively, the strongest woman can do anything the strongest man can, and to the same degree, since she has greater dexterity.

Which means that adjusted for dexterity, Nyneave is at the most three to four levels below Rand, right along with Semirhage, who scares the crap out of LTT.

Now, Elayne is also about three levels below Nyneave, and she says the weakest of the three angreal they found at Ebou Dar made her twice as strong as Nynaeve. Nyneave's bracelet angreal is far stronger, so much so that she is definitely stronger than Rand with it, probably enough to be able to shield him with it.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 10:46 AM
Oh for the love of the Light! I can't believe that so many pages into this discussion, there's still this kind of ignorance.

RJ said there were 3 levels between the strongest female and male channelers, yes, but he also said to remember that effectively, the strongest woman can do anything the strongest man can, and to the same degree, since she has greater dexterity.

Which means that adjusted for dexterity, Nyneave is at the most three to four levels below Rand, right along with Semirhage, who scares the crap out of LTT.

Now, Elayne is also about three levels below Nyneave, and she says the weakest of the three angreal they found at Ebou Dar made her twice as strong as Nynaeve. Nyneave's bracelet angreal is far stronger, so much so that she is definitely stronger than Rand with it, probably enough to be able to shield him with it.

I think part of what blew the Asha'man away was Rand's dexterity in handling all of those weaves. I would be surprised if he did not have the kind of masterful control that his children have; if he did not have the strength of a man, and the dexterity of a woman.

E: Also, your mathematical analysis of the levels is questionable. There's no reason to suspect that they're linear or direct. So while Elayne + angreal = Nynaeve * 2; Nynaeve + angreal is not necessarily > Rand.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 10:48 AM
This was pretty much what I was trying to attack. Of course "Rand is described completely differently"! He isn't described in KoD, he's the point of view character! So we don't see "Dear God, he's channeling 8 different instances of five different kinds of weaves simultaneously!" We see "Damnit, Lews Therin, give me the power back"!

They are specifically framed to give different impressions. Yet if the body counts are about the same, and we know we was doing several different things at once over a large area, there's not much ground to claim he made a quantum leap forward. He wasn't sure he could fight off the Trollocs at Algarin's because 1) he was surprise-attacked and they were already on his ass and 2) he wasn't Zen yet, with his Aes Sedai equanimity. If he was able to gateway away a significant distance and then start nuking the Trollocs, along with LTT's knowledge of weaves and not having to worry about puking his guts out when touching the Power, we have little reason to believe the outcome would have been significantly different in KoD than in ToM.
Oh come now... Rand wasn't even using LTT's knowledge in ToM. He only used deathgates from him. For the rest, he used fire, lightning and wind, not Blossom of Fire or any specially destructive waves like that.

And are you seriously saying that Naeff couldn't keep track of about 13 weaves?

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:02 AM
I think part of what blew the Asha'man away was Rand's dexterity in handling all of those weaves. I would be surprised if he did not have the kind of masterful control that his children have; if he did not have the strength of a man, and the dexterity of a woman.

E: Also, your mathematical analysis of the levels is questionable. There's no reason to suspect that they're linear or direct. So while Elayne + angreal = Nynaeve * 2; Nynaeve + angreal is not necessarily > Rand.
There's no reason not to assume they're linear either. First and foremost, you need to remember that Semirhage is totally unconcerned about facing Rand unaided, which implies he's not all that stronger than her. Most of the Forsaken are pretty close together in strength anyway. Graendal threatens Sammael, Demandred is wary of Graendal, Lanfear stands toe to toe with Ishamael, Semirhage openly hates Lanfear... None of the power dynamics of the Forsaken make sense unless they're all very close in effective strength. And Nynaeve is right in that range. If anything, she's in the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.

Which means that with a strong angreal, Nynaeve is certainly stronger than Rand at his peak strength.

As for ToM, you might recall that I was the first to suggest that like his kids, Rand may now have an extraordinary level of skill.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:04 AM
LTT's knowledge need not be limited to weaves. Maybe he knew a way to weave more efficiently, or increase stamina. Something not immediately apparent. Like weaving two Travelling Gateways to save time.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2012, 11:12 AM
As for ToM, you might recall that I was the first to suggest that like his kids, Rand may now have an extraordinary level of skill.
Or maybe all others are simply not really all that good at it.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Or both (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif)

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:18 AM
Or maybe all others are simply not really all that good at it.
That's like saying Rand's strength is the normal one, and others just don't match up.

Incidentally, the fact that Rand can now break through a circle of 13 has nothing to do with LTT, who was unable to break through a circle of six. Which means there's something going on with him that gives him extraordinary abilities, no matter what Brandon says.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:21 AM
I forgot about the circle bit. Anyway, I'm pretty much in full agreement with fionwe on the issue of Maradon. Gateways...no. Nor Egwene either, but I can't wait to see him keep his promise on Elaida.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 11:30 AM
There's no reason not to assume they're linear either. First and foremost, you need to remember that Semirhage is totally unconcerned about facing Rand unaided, which implies he's not all that stronger than her. Most of the Forsaken are pretty close together in strength anyway. Graendal threatens Sammael, Demandred is wary of Graendal, Lanfear stands toe to toe with Ishamael, Semirhage openly hates Lanfear... None of the power dynamics of the Forsaken make sense unless they're all very close in effective strength. And Nynaeve is right in that range. If anything, she's in the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.

Which means that with a strong angreal, Nynaeve is certainly stronger than Rand at his peak strength.

As for ToM, you might recall that I was the first to suggest that like his kids, Rand may now have an extraordinary level of skill.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim. Your claim presupposes some kind of linear ranking of strength. I simply say that there's no foundation for that supposition. I don't have to prove anything to point out that the proof supporting your idea is lacking.

Nynaeve is about equal to Moghedien, who is one of the weakest of the Forsaken, if not the absolute weakest. There's a well defined tier structure, and she's below Semirhage, Mesaana, and Graendal, let alone Lanfear. She is nowhere near the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.

Grig
03-12-2012, 11:33 AM
Rand wasn't even using LTT's knowledge in ToM.

Uh, citation? There's no difference between Rand and LTT anymore! You might want to re-read tGS and ToM, you seem to have missed some hugely major plot points. And you're accusing other people of ignorance? Hilarious!

You're still ignoring Point of View! How the hell would Ituralde know the difference between pure elemental fire tossed about and Blossoms of Fire? You can't say "he just used wind, earth, and fire, therefore there was no LTT knowledge being utilized". It's a nonsensical statement based on the information available to us. Ituralde wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and we're not in the other channelers' heads to give us a play-by-play on what's actually happening.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:41 AM
The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim. Your claim presupposes some kind of linear ranking of strength. I simply say that there's no foundation for that supposition. I don't have to prove anything to point out that the proof supporting your idea is lacking.
Story, but no. You're the one claiming that my reading of the difference between Nynaeve and Rand is wrong. You're the one who needs to prove that.


Nynaeve is about equal to Moghedien, who is one of the weakest of the Forsaken, if not the absolute weakest. There's a well defined tier structure, and she's below Semirhage, Mesaana, and Graendal, let alone Lanfear. She is nowhere near the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.
And with that, you've shown yourself to be completely unqualified to participate in this discussion.

Nynaeve matched Moghedien in tSR, when she was still gaining in strength. Seven books and more than AV year later, she has outstripped her.

And even though you have a tiny understanding of the books, if you'd at least read this thread, you'd have seen Brandon's quote which places Nynaeve at near the top of the female strength chain, and RJ quotes which support it.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:44 AM
Uh, citation? There's no difference between Rand and LTT anymore! You might want to re-read tGS and ToM, you seem to have missed some hugely major plot points. And you're accusing other people of ignorance? Hilarious!
Dude, you might want to read the books yourself. Rand had LTT's memories, but he has his own too. Are you really yelling me he couldn't weave lightning, fire and wind before he got LTT's memories?

Now, Unreasoner may be right that he was able to make these weaves more precise using LTT's knowledge. That, I can agree with.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Story, but no. You're the one claiming that my reading of the difference between Nynaeve and Rand is wrong. You're the one who needs to prove that.


No, I'm saying that you don't have a foundation. If you're making an affirmative claim, you HAVE to have grounds for it. It's a fundamental principle of reason that underlies philosophy, science, and law!


And with that, you've shown yourself to be completely unqualified to participate in this discussion.


...go to hell...


Nynaeve matched Moghedien in tSR, when she was still gaining in strength. Seven books and more than AV year later, she has outstripped her.

Citation? What grounds do you have for your belief that Nynaeve was still gaining in strength? She was a wilder - she'd been channeling for several years already by the time she faced Moghedien; albeit unknowingly. I'll accept though, that she very well may have grown some.


And even though you have a tiny understanding of the books,

...go to hell...

if you'd at least read this thread, you'd have seen Brandon's quote which places Nynaeve at near the top of the female strength chain, and RJ quotes which support it.

She's near the top, but not at it! Lanfear/Cyndane is above her, Alivia; Sharina, Graendal...

Even though I'll accept that Nynaeve has grown SOME since facing Moghedien, her being on a par with 3 Forsaken women in the 3rd of 4 tiers of female Forsaken strength hardly puts her in the "upper echelons" of Forsaken strength!

Brandon puts her at 6th overall. We know 3 non-Forsaken women who are stronger. It's a fair presumption that the other 2 are Lanfear/Cyndane and Graendal; the rest are tied, and lower!

Claiming that she's near the top of the women, therefore she's near the top of the Forsaken is nonsense! The Forsaken are all near the top of the women too, and Brandon's own quote suggests Nynaeve is at the median, and below the mean.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 12:26 PM
I believe the Thirteenth Depository's analysis is correct - Nynaeve is in the fourth tier of female channelers.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

An angreal can drastically increase power, but the distance between her and male first tier Rand is a big one. Lanfear is Rand's equal or slightly stronger than him in TFOH, when she has an angreal. Rand's grown since then. And we know that Nynaeve's strength has not matched Lanfear's.

Based on that, I agree with you - I just think the gap between Nynaeve and Rand is even bigger than you credit with your argument.

Rand also had the fat man angreal then, and he couldn't overcome Lanfear. So this is moot. BS said clearly there are only 6 women above nyn on the new list. Its been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'll try get it into the OP(will that help?)I don't see how nyn could be fourth level if there're only 6 women stronger.

As for ToM, you might recall that I was the first to suggest that like his kids, Rand may now have an extraordinary level of skill.


His kids? what are talking about? :confused:

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 12:32 PM
His kids? what are talking about? :confused:
While he wasn't the first to suggest it, he is referring to Aviendha's possible children, and their profound giftedness. A hypothesis I support, as it relates to Maradon.

ETA: and Rand could have overcome Lanfear, theoretically. He just chose not to.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Rand also had the fat man angreal then, and he couldn't overcome Lanfear. So this is moot. BS said clearly there are only 6 women above nyn on the new list. Its been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'll try get it into the OP(will that help?)I don't see how nyn could be fourth level if there're only 6 women stronger.

I forgot that Rand hat the fat man with him at that point. Good call - though the entire fight is difficult to speculate on since Lanfear's angreal is of unknown strength compared to Rand's. Lanfear + X = Rand was meaningful; Lanfear + X = Rand + Y is useless. :(

Yes, but he's asserting that Nynaeve is near the top of the female Forsaken list when at least 2, and likely 3 of the women above her on the strength list are Forsaken, and she's likely roughly equal to several others. So I'm objecting to the characterization of Nynaeve as being near the top of the Forsaken, since the only one we know for sure that she outstrips at this point is Moghedien - Mesaana, Semirhage? We don't know how they compare to Nynaeve. Nynaeve being in 6th does not preclude a tie for 6th.

Grig
03-12-2012, 12:36 PM
Rand also had the fat man angreal then, and he couldn't overcome Lanfear.

Rand himself knows he could have overcome her, Lews Therin was telling him exactly how. He didn't defeat her because of his hangup on hurting women. This situation has nothing to do with Rand vs. Lanfear power differentials. He didn't win because he didn't play, he didn't try and fail.

...go to hell...

Just put him/her on ignore, like I did when I realized he/she wasn't actually providing anything new, interesting, or even sensical. At least Felix is entertaining.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Lanfear+ *almost* sa'angreal<Rand and the fat man. In FoH. This is fact. How you use it is up to you.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 12:39 PM
Rand himself knows he could have overcome her, Lews Therin was telling him exactly how. He didn't defeat her because of his hangup on hurting women. This situation has nothing to do with Rand vs. Lanfear power differentials.
Yes.
Just put him/her on ignore, like I did when I realized he/she wasn't actually providing anything new, interesting, or even sensical. At least Felix is entertaining.

You do have to admire his tenacity. He's got potential.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 12:42 PM
Lanfear+ *almost* sa'angreal<Rand and the fat man. In FoH. This is fact. How you use it is up to you.

Forgive me, I don't recall where Lanfear's angreal was described. Honest question.

However, your point reinforces the view that I came to out of my tiny bit of knowledge of the series and proves that, although I'm not qualified to discuss anything, I might be right nonetheless. Lanfear is significantly stronger than Nynaeve (at least 2 levels higher, even when Nynaeve is at standard Forsaken strength), her angreal is certainly stronger than Nynaeve's; and Rand has grown a LOT from FOH to either the manor or Maradon.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 12:47 PM
I never said anything about your right to discuss, or your knowledge of the material. I just think putting fionwe on ignore is a bit premature.

As for the reference: The Eelfinn say that it is nearly strong enough to be sa'angreal to Mat and co in the end of ToM.

ETA:
One pretty important point is 'how much stronger does a difference in a single level indicate?'

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 12:50 PM
I never said anything about your right to discuss, or your knowledge of the material. I just think putting fionwe on ignore is a bit premature.

As for the reference: The Eelfinn say that it is nearly strong enough to be sa'angreal to Mat and co in the end of ToM.

I know. I was a little snippy about getting called out and figured I'd be sarcastic (in my reply to you) - but I wasn't trying to be sarcastic to YOU.

Wait, isn't that what Moiraine said? Is Moiraine's 'Finn angreal the same angreal that Lanfear had? I was under the impression that they saidared that up at Moiraine's request.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 12:54 PM
I was under the impression that they saidared that up at Moiraine's request.
Saidared?
They were one and the same, yes.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 12:55 PM
Let me add to my last post. How many women would be on each level? RJ said 21 point scale for the women and 3 more for the men. But he also put the channeling population at 1-3% of total population. That means we'll have thousands of potential channelers who'll fit into a 21 point scale.

Since RJ also clarified that we have a bell curve distribution, we can work out how many would be in each section of the curve in it were divided into 21 equal parts on the horizontal axis. That might give room for more than 6 women at the very top.

However, because we're told clearly that there are women far above nyn in the series, she still wouldn't be in the top tier. But I think she definitely rates 2nd tier saidar.

Lanfear+ *almost* sa'angreal<Rand and the fat man. In FoH. This is fact. How

Thanks for being so helpful:p. Yes Lanfear had a strong angreal, but how strong is Rand's? Does it give him more? How much will each augment? And how hard was Lanfear trying? If you don't know the answers for sure, it isn't a useful guide to anything.

Grig
03-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Wait, isn't that what Moiraine said? Is Moiraine's 'Finn angreal the same angreal that Lanfear had? I was under the impression that they saidared that up at Moiraine's request.

Moiraine did say that. The description of the angreal is consistent with the one that Moiraine found at Rhuidean, and later planted for Lanfear to find for the fight at the docks. Note that Moiraine said her request to the 'Finns was to let her keep it, not to give her a strong angreal or anything like that which they then Saidared.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/ivory_bracelet.html

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Thanks for being so helpful:p. Yes Lanfear had a strong angreal, but how strong is Rand's? Does it give him more? How much will each augment? And how hard was Lanfear trying? If you don't know the answers for sure, it isn't a useful guide to anything.
No need to be sarcastic. As I said, how you use the facts are up to you. But you cleverly cut that part out, didn't you? lol

Personally, I don't think the fat man was that strong, and I suspect that Lanfear would have tried as hard as she needed too. I don't have evidence for the first, and only common sense for the latter.

As far as the statistics go, I'm not sure how accurate it will be. The channeling rate has gone down, and the forsaken are from a separate population entirely, artificially added to the new one. I could run the numbers with six (or so) in the top 2/21, and get some hard statistics, but I won't vouch for their accuracy.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Forgive me, I don't recall where Lanfear's angreal was described. Honest question.

However, your point reinforces the view that I came to out of my tiny bit of knowledge of the series and proves that, although I'm not qualified to discuss anything, I might be right nonetheless. Lanfear is significantly stronger than Nynaeve (at least 2 levels higher, even when Nynaeve is at standard Forsaken strength), her angreal is certainly stronger than Nynaeve's; and Rand has grown a LOT from FOH to either the manor or Maradon.

The six above nyn can all be placed on one level. You can argue two, but I doubt there'll be enough room below if you do that to take in everyone else (and accomodate their differences) on the 21 point scale.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 01:13 PM
The six above nyn can all be placed on one level. You can argue two, but I doubt there'll be enough room below if you do that to take in everyone else (and accomodate their differences) on the 21 point scale.

Lanfear is on a level of her own on the female scale - all of the others are at 20 and Nynaeve is (at the highest) 19.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 01:18 PM
RJ's terminology places the characters in three age categories: young, middle years and the older ones. In addition, he often describes characters as being "just" into their middle years or simply of middle years. While very imprecise, these could still give us some clues as to who fits where.

For instance, LTT in EotW is just into his middle years though with hair more white than brown. Graendal is also described as into her middle years, while Moghedien only merited young (at the opening of the bore). And we know Demandred was almost same age as LTT. But I'm still looking up a description of Demandred to see if it would be any use in telling how much difference there is between them. Of course, I'm only assuming that the difference is due to slowing.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 01:21 PM
Moiraine did say that.
She may have. But you know who definitely did? The Eelfinn:

"She lives," Thom said quietly. "I felt her heartbeat." He took the bracelet off her arm. It was in the shape of a man bent backward with his wrists bound to his ankles, clothed in a strange suit of clothing. "It looks like a ter'angreal of some sort," Thom said, tucking it into his cloak pocket. "I—"

"It is an angreal" a voice proclaimed. "Strong enough to be nearly sa'angreal. It can be part of her price, should you wish to pay it."

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 01:25 PM
Lanfear is on a level of her own on the female scale - all of the others are at 20 and Nynaeve is (at the highest) 19.

You'll have to place Sharina there with Lanfear since she's reputed to be able to reach that (see OP). But we don't know how far behind Alivia is. Or Talaan. Or the other female forsaken including Cyndane who's said to be slightly lesser. So it could be two levels but better one.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 01:34 PM
No need to be sarcastic. As I said, how you use the facts are up to you. But you cleverly cut that part out, didn't you? lol

Personally, I don't think the fat man was that strong, and I suspect that Lanfear would have tried as hard as she needed too. I don't have evidence for the first, and only common sense for the latter.

As far as the statistics go, I'm not sure how accurate it will be. The channeling rate has gone down, and the forsaken are from a separate population entirely, artificially added to the new one. I could run the numbers with six (or so) in the top 2/21, and get some hard statistics, but I won't vouch for their accuracy.

I keep seeing these posts long after my reply. Oh well...

I thought you were the one being a little naughty. Anyway the statistics were given for the culled population. Its in the new int index under culling.

As for Lanfear, I think she had plans of her own at the docks. Moridin wouldn't be torturing her till now if she wasn't holding out on something and the prophecy in tGH supports this but I can't argue that here.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 01:38 PM
While I've always thought Alivia may be on that top level, Talaan is almost certainly not.

Seth's right. Nynaeve is at 19 or 18. And frankly, it's looking more like 18.

I could have sworn I saw a pretty well done pair of charts that ranked the channelers, and it had cutoffs for things like testing for the shawl and ability to Travel. This was years ago though. I thought it was on the Wot-FAQ, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 02:20 PM
While I've always thought Alivia may be on that top level, Talaan is almost certainly not.


Why? Alivia used nyn angreal at the cleansing and Cyndane commented she was stronger than when she was Lanfear. If you rank her at par (or almost) to Lanfear, how do you think Lanfear would be with that angreal? Not merely stronger but remarkable so that Cyndane would probably have mentioned it?

Seth's right. Nynaeve is at 19 or 18. And frankly, it's looking more like 18.

Again why?

greatwolf
03-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Comparing Alosia with Cadsuane (Eldest kin vs oldest AS) Alosia 600 makes her twice Cadsuane 295years. If we assume the oath rod actually halves the lifespan of AS, then they've slowed to the same degree and can be expected to be similar in strength. Of course we don't know how long either has left or if this is actually the right factor for the oath rod.

Also There's Mora. If she's still young at 300, then she'd have a life expectancy about 900 at least and definitely ranks at the highest tier of channelers. (LTT's estimate by same token is 900-1200years). She should be at minimum stronger than Moghedien (having same description at 200-you can see how rough it is) but could be as high as anyone.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 03:59 PM
I'm just going to drop the name 'Sorilea' right here...

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 04:46 PM
I could have sworn I saw a pretty well done pair of charts that ranked the channelers, and it had cutoffs for things like testing for the shawl and ability to Travel. This was years ago though. I thought it was on the Wot-FAQ, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

I think you're talking about the Thirteenth Depository's saidar chart. I'm pretty sure I linked it a few pages back.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 05:40 PM
No, I'm saying that you don't have a foundation. If you're making an affirmative claim, you HAVE to have grounds for it. It's a fundamental principle of reason that underlies philosophy, science, and law!
But you completely ignored all the points that do support than Nynaeve (unaided) can challenge Rand (unaided), and made a statement that since we don't know the list is linear, it could be that Rand, despite being as much stronger than Nynaeve as she is stronger than Elayne in terms of levels, could be much stronger on actual terms. The burden to prove that is yours. A linear strength scale isn't my sole support. But a non-linear one is the sole argument you have against my point that Nynaeve+strong angreal is stronger than Rand.


...go to hell...
Sorry, not doing that. I have no issues with people debating anything, but the moment you make completely ridiculous statements that are disproved in the books, in this thread, and even Linda's list on the 13th Depository that you claim to agree with, you've shown yourself to be lazy in your arguments. You can either come back with actual quotes to prove your points, or do what someone else here suggested and ignore my posts and comfortably believe that you're right...

Citation? What grounds do you have for your belief that Nynaeve was still gaining in strength?
In tGH, we are told she is as strong as the strongest woman in the Tower (which is Siuan/Moiraine/Elaida). At this point, she has been a wilder for several years, but clearly hasn't gained anywhere near her full strength. Then, she is forced when she goes to Falme, and later Tear, but at the end of tDR, she is still weak enough that four Black Sisters, the strongest of whom is Liandrin (who herself is too weak to Travel), are able to shield her and Elayne, and still have strength to spare to beat her with Air. In tSR, Nynaeve is now strong enough to match Moghdien.

So, its pretty clear Nynaeve did progress in strength quite a bit from the beginning of tGH to tSR. For all her years as a wilder, she only reached Siuan's level before coming to the Tower. That could either be her normal progression, or it could be that blocked wilders do not progress as fast as normal channelers, since the access the OP so sporadically.

Now, unless you want to argue that Nynaeve grew by leaps and bounds betweem tGH and tSR, then started growing slowly, or not at all, you have no grouds to claim that Nynaeve isn't definitely much stronger than Moghedien.

She was a wilder - she'd been channeling for several years already by the time she faced Moghedien; albeit unknowingly. I'll accept though, that she very well may have grown some.
If you agree she has grown some (without evidence of that, I might add), exactly why did you claim she was only as strong as Moghedien?

She's near the top, but not at it! Lanfear/Cyndane is above her, Alivia; Sharina, Graendal...
Wait... how in the world do you know that Cyndane or Graendal are stronger than her?

And of course she isn't at the top! Not once did I say she was.

Even though I'll accept that Nynaeve has grown SOME since facing Moghedien, her being on a par with 3 Forsaken women in the 3rd of 4 tiers of female Forsaken strength hardly puts her in the "upper echelons" of Forsaken strength!
Really? Stronger than Moghedien, Mesaana, and possibly Smeirhage (or equal to her)... that definitely makes her as strong as or stronger than 3 of five women. How is that not being in the upper echelons?

Brandon puts her at 6th overall. We know 3 non-Forsaken women who are stronger. It's a fair presumption that the other 2 are Lanfear/Cyndane and Graendal; the rest are tied, and lower!
And your point is? I've shown that Semirhage, who is at best as strong as Nynaeve, had no difficulty challenging Lanfear, and no worries about facing Rand alone and unaided. Lews Therin feels that Semirhage is a dangerous adversary. All of which means that Nynaeve is certainly capable of challenging Rand unaided, in purely strength terms. Add a strong angreal, and she is definitely going to be channeling more of the OP than Rand. Which was all I was saying.

Can Rand, in ToM, with his highly skilled weaves and extra unknown abilities, defeat her even with an angreal? Possibly. There's a good chance of it, at least. But in KoD, he certainly would have had a tough time, because Nynaeve herself isn't exactly an unskilled channeler.

Claiming that she's near the top of the women, therefore she's near the top of the Forsaken is nonsense! The Forsaken are all near the top of the women too, and Brandon's own quote suggests Nynaeve is at the median, and below the mean.
It suggests no such thing. Of course it follows that Nynaeve is in the upper tiers of Foresaken women if she is stronger than two of them for sure, and at worst the equal of a third. She may even be stronger than Graendal and as strong as Cyndane, for all we know, but when you're stronger than three out of five, you're in the upper echelons.

Add in the fact that very probably none of the Foresaken are significantly stronger than any of the others, and it becomes a given that with a strong angreal, Nynaeve can channel more of the OP than Rand can unaided.



Yes, but he's asserting that Nynaeve is near the top of the female Forsaken list when at least 2, and likely 3 of the women above her on the strength list are Forsaken, and she's likely roughly equal to several others. So I'm objecting to the characterization of Nynaeve as being near the top of the Forsaken, since the only one we know for sure that she outstrips at this point is Moghedien - Mesaana, Semirhage? We don't know how they compare to Nynaeve. Nynaeve being in 6th does not preclude a tie for 6th.
Again... read the thread. Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana. Brandon said so, adding that Mesaana isn't particularly strong for a Foresaken.


ETA: and Rand could have overcome Lanfear, theoretically. He just chose not to.
Not conclusively...

Forcing himself to move forward, he struck at her
with Air, a club to knock her senseless. She slashed the weave, and he struck again, again, again each time that she sliced through his last weave, a furious rain of blows she somehow saw and countered, always moving closer. If he could keep her occupied for a moment more, if one of those invisible cudgels landed on her head, if he could get close enough to strike her with his fist
Unconscious, she would be as helpless as anyone else.
Suddenly she seemed to realize what he was doing. Still blocking his blows as easily as if she could see every one, she danced backwards until her shoulders hit the wagon behind her. And she smiled like winter’s heart. “You will die slowly, and beg me to let you love me before you die,” she said.
It was not at him directly that she struck this time. It was at his link to saidin.
Panic rang the Void like a gong at the first knife-sharp touch, the Power diminishing as it slid deeper between him and the Source. With Spirit and Fire and Earth he cut at the knife blade; he knew where to find it; he knew where his link was, could feel that first nick.
Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack.
Handling two weaves at once should have been easy-he could handle ten or more-but not when one was a desperate defense against something he could not know was there until it was almost too late. Not when another man’s thoughts kept trying to surface inside the Void, trying to tell him how to defeat her. If he listened, it
might be Lews Therin Telamon who walked away, with Rand al’Thor a voice sometimes floating in his head, if that.

Now, here are the important points to note.

Till this point, Lanfear does not have the angreal. She gets that only when she climbs the wagon later, since Moriane says:

Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an
acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

Lanfear is first described holding the angreal after she climbs the wagon:

When had she climbed into the open wagonbed? He had to watch her, watch for any hint that she was tiring, her concentration slipping. It was a vain hope. Standing beside the twisted doorframe ter’angreal, she looked down at him, a queen about to pass sentence, yet she could spare time for chill smiles at a dark ivory bracelet that she turned over and over in her fingers.

The weave she uses to almost kill him and his clubs of Air prove nothing about their strength. But her shields certainly do. They are strong enough to cut Rand off even as he is holding all the OP he can (minus the angreal, of course). And that is a very strong indicator of relative OP strength.

Of course, it is important to remember that Lanfear was at her full strength at this time, and Rand was not. Perhaps if Rand had been at full strength, he would have had an easier time resisting the shields and weaving more than one club of Air at a time. Minus LTTs voice, and at his full strength, I doubt Lanfear would have had it so easy. But it is also clear that she wasn't exactly struggling, and if Rand was holding back from killing her, so was she. She wanted him shielded and in pain, not dead. He wanted her unconscious.

Then, of course, he started using his angreal and she hers. At that point, Rand thinks he could end it with lightning of fire, but Lanfear could similarly have ended it too. Given what else we know about the strongest woman being a match for the strongest man, its fairly certain that with a stronger angreal, Lanfear should definitely have been able to best Rand, especially if they both weren't holding back. Either way, I don't think any conclusions can be made about either of them from this fight, except that Lanfear was capable of shielding Rand unaided at this point.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 05:47 PM
Comparing Alosia with Cadsuane (Eldest kin vs oldest AS) Alosia 600 makes her twice Cadsuane 295years. If we assume the oath rod actually halves the lifespan of AS, then they've slowed to the same degree and can be expected to be similar in strength. Of course we don't know how long either has left or if this is actually the right factor for the oath rod.

Also There's Mora. If she's still young at 300, then she'd have a life expectancy about 900 at least and definitely ranks at the highest tier of channelers. (LTT's estimate by same token is 900-1200years). She should be at minimum stronger than Moghedien (having same description at 200-you can see how rough it is) but could be as high as anyone.
By the quote you yourself provided, RJ said channelers stop aging once they look about 66 years old. When they die, they'll still look 66. So if Aloisa looks 66 at age 600, she could die tomorrow or 400 years later, and she'd still look the same age (roughly) when she dies. So the question becomes, how can you really estimate strength from age if aging stops at the same point for all channelers?

And you also have to consider that in the AoL, healthcare was much better. A 60 year old non-channeler is described as young, in Rand's visions in Rhuidean. And RJ said (or put in the BwB, I don't remember which) that normal people lived to be about 250 in the AoL. Was Aes Sedai lifespan also extended due to this improved healthcare? Or is the natural rejuvenation of the OP enough for that? Either way, comparing the AoL channelers to the current day channelers becomes
problematic, given this.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 05:55 PM
Also, about Rand's angreal:

Burn you! Rand thought. He meant to shield them, but Lews Therin spoke, panting in near panic.
Not strong enough. Even with the angreal, maybe not strong enough, not to hold seven. You fool! You
waited too long! Too dangerous!
Shielding anyone did take a fair amount of strength. With the angreal, Rand was sure he could make seven shields, even with them embracing saidar already; but if even one could break that shield.... Or more than one. He wanted to impress them with his strength, not give them a chance to overcome it. But there was another way. Weaving Spirit, Fire and Earth just so, he struck almost as if intending to shield.

For whatever its worth, none of these were weak AS, but none of them was at the upper levels of traditional AS strength either.

Rand believes he can create seven shields strong enough to shut off the AS from the source, though it takes a "fair bit of strength" to shield someone. LTT disagrees. Either way, I do think this shows that the fat man angreal was far from weak, though almost certainly weaker than a near-sa'angreal.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 06:15 PM
You offer a lot of arguments, but ignore my fundamental point: my "could/might" doesn't require citation. Your "does/is" does.

All my "could/might" is meant to do is point out that your argument isn't airtight. You're arguing certainties based upon imprecise information, and I'm pointing out the flaw in doing that.

Writing a novel won't convince me one whit if you can't offer something that's logically necessary. And if you're going to make an affirmative statement - that Nynaeve + moderate angreal is STRONGER than Rand, despite him being at least 4-5 levels higher than her - you need to back it up. You offered good supposition, but this argument started when you stated straight out that Nynaeve was STRONGER than Rand, as a factual certainty.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 06:28 PM
Not conclusively...
Yes, conclusively…
“I’ll make both of those trulls watch you beg,” Lanfear said. “But should I make them watch you die first, or you them?” When had she climbed into the open wagon-bed? He had to watch her, watch for any hint that she was tiring, her concentration slipping. It was a vain hope. Standing beside the twisted doorframe ter’angreal, she looked down at him, a queen about to pass sentence, yet she could spare time for chill smiles at a dark ivory bracelet that she turned over and over in her fingers. “Which will hurt you most, Lews Therin? I want you to hurt. I want you to know pain such as no man has ever known!”
The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut. His hand tightened on his coat pocket, the fat little stone man with his sword hard against the heron branded into his palm. He drew on saidin as deeply as he could, till the taint floated in the emptiness with him like misting rain.
“Pain, Lews Therin.”
And there was pain, the world swallowed in agony. Not heart or head this time, but everywhere, every part of him, hot needles stabbing into the Void. He almost thought he could hear a quenching hiss at each thrust, and each came deeper than the last. Her attempts to shield him did not slow; they came faster, stronger. He could not believe she was so strong. Clinging to the Void, to searing, freezing saidin, he defended himself wildly. He could end it, finish her. He could call down lightning, or wrap her in the fire she herself had used to kill.
Images darted through the pain: A woman in a dark merchant’s dress, toppling from her horse, the fire-red sword light in his hands; she had come to kill him, with a fistful of other Darkfriends. Mat’s bleak eyes; I killed her. A golden-haired woman lying in a ruined hallway where, it seemed, the very walls had melted and flowed. Ilyena, forgive me! It was a despairing cry.
He could end it. Only, he could not. He was going to die, perhaps the world would die, but he could not make himself kill another woman. Somehow it seemed the richest joke the world had ever seen.
And:
(Paraphrased)][/FONT]
Robert Jordan
Re: Lanfear and Rand at the docks. She was just toying with him using her angreal, [while he used the little fat man]. They were pretty well matched. BUT, questioned whether Rand's estimation that he could end it if he wanted to, RJ said, yes. But of course, Rand couldn't.
So, Rand thought he could end it after Lanfear began using the super-angreal. And according to RJ, he was right. So I say again: Lanfear + *almost* sa’angreal < FoH Rand + fat man.
And on the seven shields thing: he may have been able to pull it off, but prudence and the price of failure made him choose to interfere with their illusions instead.

You offer a lot of arguments, but ignore my fundamental point: my "could/might" doesn't require citation. Your "does/is" does.
He has trouble with that one.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 06:39 PM
He has trouble with that one.

I'm noticing that. Some of his arguments are reasonably strong, but he ultimately seems to be basing it on:

The maximum conceivable strength for Nynaeve;
The minimum conceivable strength for Rand; AND
The maximum conceivable effect of an angreal.


Again; all conceivable, but far from compelling, no matter how long his wall of text.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 06:50 PM
You offer a lot of arguments, but ignore my fundamental point: my "could/might" doesn't require citation. Your "does/is" does.

All my "could/might" is meant to do is point out that your argument isn't airtight. You're arguing certainties based upon imprecise information, and I'm pointing out the flaw in doing that.
I'm not arguing for any certainty. The strength list may be linear or not. The only points that matter are: Nynaeve is stronger than or equal to Smeirhage, and Smeirhage is strong enough to be a serious threat to LTT and any other Foresaken, ergo there is no way Nynaeve is significantly wekaen (that being defined as more than 15% weaker) than Rand. And since her strong angreal more than doubles her strength, there's no way she channels less of the Power with it than Rand.

If you want to disprove what I'm saying, you need to show that Nynaeve is significantly less than half of Rand's strength! Which is a notion that is so absurd it would never come up in a strength discussion between people who'd actually read the books and thought about it.

Writing a novel won't convince me one whit if you can't offer something that's logically necessary. And if you're going to make an affirmative statement - that Nynaeve + moderate angreal is STRONGER than Rand, despite him being at least 4-5 levels higher than her - you need to back it up. You offered good supposition, but this argument started when you stated straight out that Nynaeve was STRONGER than Rand, as a factual certainty.
In other words, I can't rebut your points, I can give no textual or meta textual evidence, so I'm going to whine.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Yes, conclusively…

And:
[/FONT]
So, Rand thought he could end it after Lanfear began using the super-angreal. And according to RJ, he was right. So I say again: Lanfear + *almost* sa’angreal < FoH Rand + fat man.
And on the seven shields thing: he may have been able to pull it off, but prudence and the price of failure made him choose to interfere with their illusions instead.


He has trouble with that one.
I see. So if I say that I "could kill you by shoving a knife in you", that means it will happen?

Look at the facts. Rand is raining clubs of Air at Lanfear which she is able to cut with seeming ease. Why won't she similarly cut off his lightning or fire?

Which doesn't mean he had no chance of defeating her. But nor does it mean certainty. After all, Moiraine "ended it" with Be'lal by hurling Baelfire at him. He never expected it till it was too late, so he died. If Lanfear had been too distracted by her desire to cause Rand pain, he could have surprised her with lightning and ended it, sure. But to conclude from that that he could draw more of the power with an angreal than she could with a near-sa'angreal is absurd, not least because that contention is contradicted by so many other sources.

And I have no trouble with the point that the strength scale isn't linear. I believe it is, but even if it isn't, my point easily stands, since there is conclusive proof that Nynaeve's angreal more than doubles her strength. If you or the OP believe the non-linearity of the strength list stretches so far that Nynaeve can be less than half of Rand's strength and still be only a few levels below him, the onus of proof is on you.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 07:12 PM
You offer a lot of arguments, but ignore my fundamental point: my "could/might" doesn't require citation. Your "does/is" does.

The implication of this just came to me when I saw it quoted by Unreasoner.

Are you actually serious in this contention? You think if you say something might be true, you don't have to support it, and it stands equal to another statement that does have support? Very well then:

Nynaeve might be 500 times stronger than Rand.

I'm not going to support that statement, and apparently you can't ask for any citations since I'm saying "might".

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Even I have my limits for bashing my head against the wall. Still refusing to admit the inherent flaws in the argument, and being all sorts of snippy about it.

Ignored.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 07:18 PM
:rolleyes:Even I have my limits for bashing my head against the wall. Still refusing to admit the inherent flaws in the argument, and being all sorts of snippy about it.

Ignored.
:rolleyes: Good. At least you can admit to the fact that you're incapable of argument.

Incidentally, if someone told you there were three levels to a basement in the building, do you think it is likely that each level is of a different depth, or that they're all even, minus any other data?

ETA: I find it funny how similar your thought process is to Elaida's:

Seth Baker: I don't think Nynaeve with an angreal is stronger than Rand-> This is because the 21 level list may not be linear.-> I have no reason to believe it isn't linear, but since there's no direct statement saying it is, my point about Nynaeve is proved, and other factors pointing to this can be ignored!

Elaida: I don't think the Seanchan are a threat-> This is because there is reason to think the al'Vere girl is not being honest-> I have no real evidence she's lying, but I don't have to prove that she is! So I'm right, the Seanchan are a fable...

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 08:22 PM
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Good. At least you can admit to the fact that you're incapable of argument.

Incidentally, if someone told you there were three levels to a basement in the building, do you think it is likely that each level is of a different depth, or that they're all even, minus any other data?

ETA: I find it funny how similar your thought process is to Elaida's:

Seth Baker: I don't think Nynaeve with an angreal is stronger than Rand-> This is because the 21 level list may not be linear.-> I have no reason to believe it isn't linear, but since there's no direct statement saying it is, my point about Nynaeve is proved, and other factors pointing to this can be ignored!

Elaida: I don't think the Seanchan are a threat-> This is because there is reason to think the al'Vere girl is not being honest-> I have no real evidence she's lying, but I don't have to prove that she is! So I'm right, the Seanchan are a fable...

I have this awful habit of checking people's posts on my ignore list because I'm a masochist.

My inability to argue is news to me. I thought that my advancement to my law school's external moot court team on the strength of my written arguments was pretty strong proof; but some guy on the internet says I'm wrong...

You might make that presumption about the building; but you wouldn't rely on it for purposes of stating facts (like the height of the building) when all you really knew was the number of floors. And, since this is not a building, but a chart of strengths in the One Power, all of the things we know about buildings (that generally a story is 10-12 feet) don't apply unless you can cite other charts listing One Power strength. You can't? Oh.

You still don't understand the fundamentals of my argument. I'm not saying that my point is proven. I'm saying that your point is not proven. Are you daft?

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 08:58 PM
I have this awful habit of checking people's posts on my ignore list because I'm a masochist.

My inability to argue is news to me. I thought that my advancement to my law school's external moot court team on the strength of my written arguments was pretty strong proof; but some guy on the internet says I'm wrong...

You might make that presumption about the building; but you wouldn't rely on it for purposes of stating facts (like the height of the building) when all you really knew was the number of floors. And, since this is not a building, but a chart of strengths in the One Power, all of the things we know about buildings (that generally a story is 10-12 feet) don't apply unless you can cite other charts listing One Power strength. You can't? Oh.

You still don't understand the fundamentals of my argument. I'm not saying that my point is proven. I'm saying that your point is not proven. Are you daft?
This should be... amusing.

Dude, you can boast all you want, but here are the facts:
When you first made the point that the strength list may not be linear, here's what I said:

There's no reason not to assume they're linear either. First and foremost, you need to remember that Semirhage is totally unconcerned about facing Rand unaided, which implies he's not all that stronger than her. Most of the Forsaken are pretty close together in strength anyway. Graendal threatens Sammael, Demandred is wary of Graendal, Lanfear stands toe to toe with Ishamael, Semirhage openly hates Lanfear... None of the power dynamics of the Forsaken make sense unless they're all very close in effective strength. And Nynaeve is right in that range. If anything, she's in the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.

Which means that with a strong angreal, Nynaeve is certainly stronger than Rand at his peak strength.


I said, basically, that quite apart from the strength scale, there are other facts which point to Nynaeve+Angreal being stronger than Rand.

To which you replied:

The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim. Your claim presupposes some kind of linear ranking of strength. I simply say that there's no foundation for that supposition. I don't have to prove anything to point out that the proof supporting your idea is lacking.

Nynaeve is about equal to Moghedien, who is one of the weakest of the Forsaken, if not the absolute weakest. There's a well defined tier structure, and she's below Semirhage, Mesaana, and Graendal, let alone Lanfear. She is nowhere near the upper echelons of Forsaken strength.

Nowhere did I make the positive claim that the strength scale was linear. The word "assume" is right there in my statement! But you claimed that I did, said I had to prove it, and then claimed you didn't have to prove anything at all! You also ignored all the other evidence I gave for Nynaeve being close to Rand in strength, and then made a monumental factual error in stating that Nynaeve was about equal to Moghedien, and weaker than Smeirhage and Mesaana.

To which I replied:

Story, but no. You're the one claiming that my reading of the difference between Nynaeve and Rand is wrong. You're the one who needs to prove that.

Your only point of contention to my placement of Nynaeve relative to Rand was that the strength scale might not be linear. I gave you other points to show that my placement was, in fact, correct. You still claimed I was wrong, and were using the non-linearity of the scale as your only citation. Which meant the burden of proof was with you. The linearity or non-linearity of the scale was irrelevant to my argument at this point. I had already said that there was no reason to assume non-linearity, but had moved away from that and given other points to my argument.

You, however, continued to harp on the non-linearity of the scale, seemed to assume that was my sole evidence for my point, and refused to address any of the points I made to show that the discussion on linearity was moot. And then, of course, you oh so eloquently asked me to go to hell (a usual debate tactic of yours, is it?).

So, explain to me again why we're discussing my need to prove a linear scale, two pages after I made other points which made the discussion moot. Never once have I insisted the scale is linear. I even said:

But you completely ignored all the points that do support than Nynaeve (unaided) can challenge Rand (unaided), and made a statement that since we don't know the list is linear, it could be that Rand, despite being as much stronger than Nynaeve as she is stronger than Elayne in terms of levels, could be much stronger on actual terms. The burden to prove that is yours. A linear strength scale isn't my sole support. But a non-linear one is the sole argument you have against my point that Nynaeve+strong angreal is stronger than Rand.

Basically, you disagreed with my point because one of the arguments I made in support of it may not be true. I made other arguments that did support my point, but you ignored them, and continued to insist that I show direct support for that one argument. Looks to me like you were covering for your lack of knowledge of the books by arguing over something that lost relevancy to the debate very early on.

Since you say you've been to law school, let me make an analogy:

You're defending someone accused of pushing his friend from the stairwell below the 24th floor of a building. Your guy says it wasn't him. The prosecution says that a high speed camera at the ground level captured the last part of the fall and they got the terminal velocity from it. Now, given the first floor is 10 meters high, and assuming all floors to be equal, they have the distance the body fell, and so know the exact time when the guy was pushed. Security cameras on the 24th floor place the defendant opening the stairwell door exactly 30 seconds from this calculated time, proving he was in the stairwell.

But, you argue, all the floors need not be of the same height, so the calculation of the timing is wrong.

The prosecution refuses to measure each floors height, because to make their point that your client is guilty, they decide they have other evidence, including a witness from the building across the street who say your client push the deceased.

Here's my question to you: will you, in this situation, refuse to cross examine the witness, and continue insisting till the end of the trial that he prosecution is wrong, the floors may not all be of equal height, and you refuse to prove they're unequal because the burden of proof is with the prosecution; or will you go to the building and do the measurements, since that piece of evidence is all you apparently have going for you (irrelevant though it may be, in the face of other stuff)?

fdsaf3
03-12-2012, 09:05 PM
Once people start arguing about arguing, you know it's a discussion way off track. Maybe take a step back from the thread, calm down, and let cooler heads prevail? Just a friendly suggestion.

Anyway, much of this debate has centered (from what I can tell - I can only stand so much vitriol) around Nynaeve's ranking in terms of OP ability. Is that fair to say?

I would suggest to those participating in this "debate" (for lack of a better word) that they consider a few things.

1. Raw strength doesn't win fights by itself. Weaker channelers have been able to shield stronger channelers, for example. It's not as though a 20-level channeler would automatically destroy a 19-level channeler based on their ability to channel the One Power alone. There's more to it than that.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: RJ didn't intend for these kinds of conversations to happen. OP strength simply wasn't that big of a deal to him. Really, there are more important and more interesting topics to discuss.

Oh, and one more thing: it's been discussed on here ad nauseaum (see, I can use fancy Latin phrases too!) that the 21 point scale used to describe OP channeling ability isn't linear. Just do a search for some key phrases like channeling strength and look through some of those old discussions and you'll see what I'm talking about.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 10:01 PM
Once people start arguing about arguing, you know it's a discussion way off track. Maybe take a step back from the thread, calm down, and let cooler heads prevail? Just a friendly suggestion.

Anyway, much of this debate has centered (from what I can tell - I can only stand so much vitriol) around Nynaeve's ranking in terms of OP ability. Is that fair to say?

I would suggest to those participating in this "debate" (for lack of a better word) that they consider a few things.

1. Raw strength doesn't win fights by itself. Weaker channelers have been able to shield stronger channelers, for example. It's not as though a 20-level channeler would automatically destroy a 19-level channeler based on their ability to channel the One Power alone. There's more to it than that.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: RJ didn't intend for these kinds of conversations to happen. OP strength simply wasn't that big of a deal to him. Really, there are more important and more interesting topics to discuss.
I agree with all you said, except:

Oh, and one more thing: it's been discussed on here ad nauseaum (see, I can use fancy Latin phrases too!) that the 21 point scale used to describe OP channeling ability isn't linear. Just do a search for some key phrases like channeling strength and look through some of those old discussions and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I know everyone assumes the scale isn't linear. Linda even says it in the 13th Depository strength list, and that's as close to a definitive list as we have (though I disagree with some placements). But consider these statements:

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.

Luckers
Is strength in the power evenly distributed? Would on a scale of one to one hundred the most channelers be on the 50 mark? (within a gender, of course).
Maria Simons
Jim described it as a bell curve, with most channelers in the middle.

What percentage of women could test for the shawl?
Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell curve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

Now, when RJ talks of the bell curve, you have an X-axis for strength, and a Y-axis for number of channelers, and when you plot for number of channelers in a particular strength, you get a bell curve. When the question was put to Maria about a strength scale from 1-100, she did nothing to deny that most channelers would be at strength 50.

And if you look at the definition of a normal distribution, you'll notice that it is a continuous probability distribution, which means a variable can take any value between its maximum and minimum values.

So, if we take strength to be distributed from 1 to 100 (a convenient scale) with Morghase at the bottom and Lanfear at 100, and the 21 level list is mapped onto this scale, then each level must represent a cluster of values. Level 1 will be from strengths 0 to 4.76, Level 2 from 4.76 to 9.62, and so on. There will be differences in strength within each level, but these won't come out as significant except in some kind of structured duel (as an Aes Sedai points out about the levels among them. Merise, I think).

If you want to argue the levels are non linear, then, for strength to fit a bell curve, levels 1 and 21 mush be smaller than levels 2 and 20, in turn smaller than 3 and 19 and so on, which leaves level 11 covering the broadest range, including the mean.

Since, with a bell curve, most channelers will be clustered around this peak, and if you give level 11 the bradest range, that means you're going to have one level that has a really huge number of channelers, considerably more than any other.

Now, RJ said that the main reason for the 21 level list was so he could keep track of the Aes Sedai, and who should defer to whom. Does that make any sense when a huge chunk of channelers (a larger block than in any other level) will be clustered in one level?

Now, you can argue that the 21 level list isn't mapped onto the bell curve, but that makes little sense given that there is an RJ curve where he himself brings up the levels right after talking about the bell curve.

None of this is conclusive, but they do paint a picture that RJ thought of a 21 level list mapped over a bell curve, and a non linear scale doesn't make much sense in that context.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm not sure I follow you. Obviously if it's non-linear strength wouldn't be mapped on either axis of the curve. Y is the proportion of the population, x is simply the level. The fact that the x-axis would directly relate to strength in a linear system is basically meaningless. You could normalize the power levels first.

ETA:
like say level is x, and follows a normal distibution that ranges from 1 to 21. But strength is f(x), which could be linear, or it could be something like f(x)=2^x. The level is still normally distributed, but to get the actual usable figure you need to apply a transformation.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 10:24 PM
I'm not sure I follow you. Obviously if it's non-linear strength wouldn't be mapped on either axis of the curve. Y is the proportion of the population, x is simply the level. The fact that the x-axis would directly relate to strength in a linear system is basically meaningless. You could normalize the power levels first.
This is an old argument I've had many times.

My position is that if RJ meant that it was strength levels that had a bell curve distribution, he would have said so. But in the one quote he mentions them both, he quite clearly doesn't do so.

ETA: And anyway, a bell curve over 21 levels, where only 62.5% of the channelers can become AS makes no sense. That would mean roughly 8 levels of women who cannot become AS, and Linda's list is fairly correct on the number of levels the AS occupy, and how many levels exist above them. However much you crunch the numbers, there just can't be 7-8 levels below Daigian.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 10:42 PM
The implication of this just came to me when I saw it quoted by Unreasoner.
Well, it's not exactly the same deal as your bizarreness in the Egwene thread. But only because this time, both of you are screwing around.
I see. So if I say that I "could kill you by shoving a knife in you", that means it will happen?

Look at the facts. Rand is raining clubs of Air at Lanfear which she is able to cut with seeming ease. Why won't she similarly cut off his lightning or fire?

Which doesn't mean he had no chance of defeating her. But nor does it mean certainty. After all, Moiraine "ended it" with Be'lal by hurling Baelfire at him. He never expected it till it was too late, so he died. If Lanfear had been too distracted by her desire to cause Rand pain, he could have surprised her with lightning and ended it, sure. But to conclude from that that he could draw more of the power with an angreal than she could with a near-sa'angreal is absurd, not least because that contention is contradicted by so many other sources.

And I have no trouble with the point that the strength scale isn't linear. I believe it is, but even if it isn't, my point easily stands, since there is conclusive proof that Nynaeve's angreal more than doubles her strength. If you or the OP believe the non-linearity of the strength list stretches so far that Nynaeve can be less than half of Rand's strength and still be only a few levels below him, the onus of proof is on you.
Well to the last bit...I'm not sure what kind of non linear function (that is applicable) would keep your point valid. What exactly were you thinking?

As for the first: there was no practical deterrent to Rand. The only thing stopping Rand from killing Lanfear was Rand. So we aren't dealing with some vague hypothetical. RJ said this himself. It's not an issue of 'well I could get hit by a meteorite', it's 'I could pull this trigger and kill you'. Lanfear was effectively not part of the equation. You are right, that Rand's victory wasn't certain. But the fact of the matter is it wasn't uncertain for any reason you claim.
1. Raw strength doesn't win fights by itself. Weaker channelers have been able to shield stronger channelers, for example. It's not as though a 20-level channeler would automatically destroy a 19-level channeler based on their ability to channel the One Power alone. There's more to it than that.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: RJ didn't intend for these kinds of conversations to happen. OP strength simply wasn't that big of a deal to him. Really, there are more important and more interesting topics to discuss.
This is all irrelevant. We couldn't care less what strength means (or if it even means anything). We just want to know who's stronger. The why may vary from person to person. For me, it keeps my Theoryland skills sharp: looking for quotes, tracking an argument, reverse-engineering a position or system...it's fun. (and really, this is a site for discussing fantasy works. Does any of it have some larger purpose.

As for arguing on arguing:
I'm all for it. I'd rather do that now, and not have to give the same goddamn lecture on logic and deduction in every thread. Of course, people need to be open minded enough to learn.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 10:48 PM
This is an old argument I've had many times.

My position is that if RJ meant that it was strength levels that had a bell curve distribution, he would have said so. But in the one quote he mentions them both, he quite clearly doesn't do so.

ETA: And anyway, a bell curve over 21 levels, where only 62.5% of the channelers can become AS makes no sense. That would mean roughly 8 levels of women who cannot become AS, and Linda's list is fairly correct on the number of levels the AS occupy, and how many levels exist above them. However much you crunch the numbers, there just can't be 7-8 levels below Daigian.
You're not serious. I couldn't care less who falls where or how many levels are below whoever. But bell curves work in a specific way. Just because the curve itself is symmetrical does not mean the true values are. I don't know how you aren't seeing this. Thing of earthquakes, and the way magnitude works. If earthquake magnitudes were normally distributed, that doesn't change the fact that a magnitude 8 is far more than one stronger than 7.

Kimon
03-12-2012, 10:54 PM
So, if we take strength to be distributed from 1 to 100 (a convenient scale) with Morghase at the bottom and Lanfear at 100, and the 21 level list is mapped onto this scale, then each level must represent a cluster of values. Level 1 will be from strengths 0 to 4.76, Level 2 from 4.76 to 9.62, and so on. There will be differences in strength within each level, but these won't come out as significant except in some kind of structured duel (as an Aes Sedai points out about the levels among them. Merise, I think).



This was Merana.

Now, RJ said that the main reason for the 21 level list was so he could keep track of the Aes Sedai, and who should defer to whom. Does that make any sense when a huge chunk of channelers (a larger block than in any other level) will be clustered in one level?

In the same passage in which Merana commented on her comparisons to the interlopers, Alanna and Verin, she mentions three criteria - strength (all were a near enough match (level 8 on Linda's scale) that only a duel could determine the matter); years in training at each level (novice and accepted - near matches between all three again); and age. Merana was older than Alanna - Alanna had to defer to her. Verin was older than Merana - so Merana felt obligated to defer. Such additions to the etiquette make sense when large numbers of Aes Sedai would be otherwise on identical footing.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 10:55 PM
Well, it's not exactly the same deal as your bizarreness in the Egwene thread. But only because this time, both of you are screwing around.
What I find interesting is the double standards you employ. On the one hand, Egwene is to be condemned for not thinking of non-Mesaana options like Darkfriends, even though she had a reasonable case for excluding them. On the other hand, Logain's thinking is to be beleived, even though we know he was aware of something that put doubt on his claim. Logain knew about Androl, was impressed by his ability, yet never considered that this ability may be present in others as well, to varying degrees. Instead, he stuck to "correlation=causation", and you're quite happy to take him at his word since it suits your argument.

Well to the last bit...I'm not sure what kind of non linear function (that is applicable) would keep your point valid. What exactly were you thinking?
I'm not thinking of anything here. I just what to know how anyone justifies making Nynaeve less than half of Rand's strength, because she would have to be at that level for her angreal, which more than doubles her strength, to not make her stronger than Rand.

As for the first: there was no practical deterrent to Rand. The only thing stopping Rand from killing Lanfear was Rand. So we aren't dealing with some vague hypothetical. RJ said this himself. It's not an issue of 'well I could get hit by a meteorite', it's 'I could pull this trigger and kill you'. Lanfear was effectively not part of the equation. You are right, that Rand's victory wasn't certain. But the fact of the matter is it wasn't uncertain for any reason you claim.
There was no practical deterrent? Lanfear was cutting his weaves, and as far as I know, that is a very real, very practical deterrent to the functioning of weaves. Was I wrong? Could a weave of fire that is cut still burn the target?

Or are you arguing that Lanfear was using all her angreal enhanced strength to shield Rand and cause him pain? Because we have no way of knowing that. Rand didn't even know she had a super strong angreal aiding her! His entire claim is predicated on his belief that she's using all her strength up at the moment.

And yes, Rand could give up attempting to use a baseball bat and go for a gun. But Lanfear isn't exactly incapable of defending herself from a gun. Lews Therin's great idea for killing her was fire and lightning, neither of which are beyond her ability to stop!

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:00 PM
I just realized I know a way to settle this mathematically. Like, I could fucking prove this shit. I just need to know (if it's available) how many levels men have over 21. I might be able to do without, but it would be a pain in the ass.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:08 PM
You're not serious. I couldn't care less who falls where or how many levels are below whoever. But bell curves work in a specific way. Just because the curve itself is symmetrical does not mean the true values are. I don't know how you aren't seeing this. Thing of earthquakes, and the way magnitude works. If earthquake magnitudes were normally distributed, that doesn't change the fact that a magnitude 8 is far more than one stronger than 7.
Are you kidding me?

The Richter scale is measured as the log of the amplitude of seismograph waves. No reasonable person would say that a bell curve fitted to the Richter scale is the same as a bell curve fitted to the amplitude values.

To put it in other words, there are no mathematical constraints to your position that 21 non-linear levels form the x-axis. But there are practical constraints from the implications of such a curve (namely, it doesn't fit with what we actually know about channelers and Aes Sedai).

You may not care who falls where, but that is precisely the reason for which RJ came up with this scale! If the conclusion you get from your scale is that there need to be more levels below "strong enough to be Aes Sedai" in Linda's list, then that scale is wrong, because a reading of Linda's list will show that there is no way to crunch up the Aes Sedai levels, or the levels above, sufficiently to fit your scale. And since Aes Sedai deference based on their occupation of the levels was the chief reason RJ came up with this scale, your point becomes even less valid. Not because it is mathematically unsound, but because it doesn't fist with what we know from the books.

You really need to stop doing this. You continue to focus more on the mathematical or philosophical merit of an argument than the practical implications of the argument when it clashes with the facts from the books. The same is true for Seth Baker. When that happens, we end up in arguments about arguments, instead of actually arriving at a reasonable resolution of what we're discussing.

ETA: And you need to address the fact that when Maria was asked about a strength scale from 1 to 100, she didn't contradict it, didn't say that the curve was for he strength levels, etc.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:10 PM
This was Merana.
Ahh... thank you for that.

In the same passage in which Merana commented on her comparisons to the interlopers, Alanna and Verin, she mentions three criteria - strength (all were a near enough match (level 8 on Linda's scale) that only a duel could determine the matter); years in training at each level (novice and accepted - near matches between all three again); and age. Merana was older than Alanna - Alanna had to defer to her. Verin was older than Merana - so Merana felt obligated to defer. Such additions to the etiquette make sense when large numbers of Aes Sedai would be otherwise on identical footing.
Except that Eadyth makes it clear that your first cue about deference is difference in strength. Age and other such factors only come after that. If a great number of AS were in the same level, wouldn't those other factors have taken on a more prominent role?

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:13 PM
I just realized I know a way to settle this mathematically. Like, I could fucking prove this shit. I just need to know (if it's available) how many levels men have over 21. I might be able to do without, but it would be a pain in the ass.
Why? RJ made it clear that both the 21 levels and the bell curve are gender specific. You can adjust one to compare with the other, sure, but OP rankings are quite clearly separate. There was no single list with men and women (though RJ obviously knew which specific man/woman was stronger than which other man/woman).

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:13 PM
There was no practical deterrent? Lanfear was cutting his weaves, and as far as I know, that is a very real, very practical deterrent to the functioning of weaves. Was I wrong? Could a weave of fire that is cut still burn the target?

Or are you arguing that Lanfear was using all her angreal enhanced strength to shield Rand and cause him pain? Because we have no way of knowing that. Rand didn't even know she had a super strong angreal aiding her! His entire claim is predicated on his belief that she's using all her strength up at the moment.

And yes, Rand could give up attempting to use a baseball bat and go for a gun. But Lanfear isn't exactly incapable of defending herself from a gun. Lews Therin's great idea for killing her was fire and lightning, neither of which are beyond her ability to stop!
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter that Rand could not know either the strength of the angreal or what Lanfear had up her sleeve. Rand said he could beat her (even with everything else). On it's own, it's little more than a wild guess. But then RJ confirmed it. It would be like me saying 'the river card will be the ace I need to win!' It's nonsense, sure. But if someone (like RJ) who does know what the river card is says 'oh shit, he's right!' then I would have won. Whatever cards my opponent had. Rand basically folded while believing (however little right he had to) he could win.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:15 PM
Why? RJ made it clear that both the 21 levels and the bell curve are gender specific. You can adjust one to compare with the other, sure, but OP rankings are quite clearly separate. There was no single list with men and women (though RJ obviously knew which specific man/woman was stronger than which other man/woman).
I know all that. I already have the data point I need to anchor one list to the other. This will prove whether the function is linear or not.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:17 PM
Are you kidding me?

The Richter scale is measured as the log of the amplitude of seismograph waves. No reasonable person would say that a bell curve fitted to the Richter scale is the same as a bell curve fitted to the amplitude values.
Thank you. Took someone long enough.

ETA:
You do realize that the scale could be linear and still have you wrong about Nynaeve right?

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:19 PM
Got what I need. BRB with the proof. (maybe fionwe is right)

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:27 PM
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter that Rand could not know either the strength of the angreal or what Lanfear had up her sleeve. Rand said he could beat her (even with everything else). On it's own, it's little more than a wild guess. But then RJ confirmed it. It would be like me saying 'the river card will be the ace I need to win!' It's nonsense, sure. But if someone (like RJ) who does know what the river card is says 'oh shit, he's right!' then I would have won. Whatever cards my opponent had. Rand basically folded while believing (however little right he had to) he could win.

Except you're misinterpreting what RJ said. The word "could" doesn't mean "definitely will" in any dictionary I've read. And much greater strength is no guarantee against defeat, as Alivia vs. Cyndane and Moiraine vs. Be'lal prove.

RJ could easily have meant that if Rand wanted to end it, his ta'veren luck would have kicked in and helped him win. That doesn't imply that Rand was stronger than Lanfear, does it?

Thank you. Took someone long enough.
So you agree you were wrong? :confused:

ETA:
You do realize that the scale could be linear and still have you wrong about Nynaeve right?
Of course. But in that case, you'd have to show me some evidence that Nynaeve is less than half as strong as Rand. I'd be able to zap that argument in seconds, but I'll wait till someone actually makes it.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:34 PM
maybe I'm just tired, maybe I screwed up somewhere, but I still got an S_x2 to get rid of. how many levels do men have over women? and there is no level zero, right (or rather: zero is Perrin)

And:
'could' means physically capable. Didn't you ever have a teacher that said 'I don't know, can you go to the bathroom?'

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:38 PM
And:
'could' means physically capable. Didn't you ever have a teacher that said 'I don't know, can you go to the bathroom?'
YES! And being physically capable of killing Lanfear does NOT imply Rand is stronger in the Power than her. Morghase, who can only channel enough to flap a handkerchief, is physically capable of killing Lanfear by stuffing said handkerchief down her throat. Does she move to the top of the strength list now?

ETA: Level 0 is probably Perrin, but there just may be a channeler so weak they can sometimes sense the True Source but couldn't channel any of the OP at all. Like Egwene with enough forkroot to prevent her from channeling anything (end of tGS), say.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 11:42 PM
Men are curved from 1-24; Women are curved from 1-21. Nynaeve is (at most) a 19. Rand is a 24.

fionwe1987
03-12-2012, 11:46 PM
Men are curved from 1-24; Women are curved from 1-21. Nynaeve is (at most) a 19. Rand is a 24.
Aaaaand he's back! This time, he shall soon refuse to prove that several means three...

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 12:42 AM
Okay. So I played with the numbers and got some data. But, the results didn't seem to match what they should be. I'll tell you what I found, then show you all the big 'BUT' at the end...

I couldn't get the exact equation for converting rank to power, but it looks like it is indeed linear. I need one more data point to get some exact numbers, but it is linear.

And Rand is significantly stronger than Nynaeve. (was that even the question?) Like at least twice as strong. but probably far less than ten times, the variation cannot be that off. My numbers put him at about 2.3 Nynaeves. (of course this says nothing of dexterity)

And now for the BUT:
The data I use says that the 4th rank is the cutoff for women. It also says that 62.5% of women can test for the shawl. And RJ says strength is normally distributed.

So...(does anyone see where I'm going with this?)

The math also says that 37.5% of women are as strong as Nynaeve or stronger. (Or at least Forsaken-strength)

And that doesn't seem right, does it?

Now I guess that the majority of this untapped potential could be non-sparkers, ignorant of their power. Or: (my preferred explanation) the cutoff for the shawl is not at 4.

Thoughts?

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 12:46 AM
Re: Lanfear

Most normal people would make some basic assumptions. Like: Morgase would be burned alive before she got close enough. ie, they would treat Lanfear's channeling as a physical reality that needs to be considered. What do you think the point of RJ's answer was anyway?

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Okay. So I played with the numbers and got some data. But, the results didn't seem to match what they should be. I'll tell you what I found, then show you all the big 'BUT' at the end...

I couldn't get the exact equation for converting rank to power, but it looks like it is indeed linear. I need one more data point to get some exact numbers, but it is linear.

And Rand is significantly stronger than Nynaeve. (was that even the question?) Like at least twice as strong. but probably far less than ten times, the variation cannot be that off. My numbers put him at about 2.3 Nynaeves. (of course this says nothing of dexterity)

And now for the BUT:
The data I use says that the 4th rank is the cutoff for women. It also says that 62.5% of women can test for the shawl. And RJ says strength is normally distributed.

So...(does anyone see where I'm going with this?)

The math also says that 37.5% of women are as strong as Nynaeve or stronger. (Or at least Forsaken-strength)

And that doesn't seem right, does it?

Now I guess that the majority of this untapped potential could be non-sparkers, ignorant of their power. Or: (my preferred explanation) the cutoff for the shawl is not at 4.

Thoughts?
Or, it isn't strength levels that are the x-axis, you know. When your theory shows flagrantly absurd results, the sane thing to do is to give it up.

And how in the world do you get Rand being 2.3 times Nynaeve's strength? That makes absolutely no sense. It implies that Logain is at least twice as strong as Nynaeve, and in that case, he should have been able to break through her shield without even blinking his eyes.

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 12:52 AM
Re: Lanfear

Most normal people would make some basic assumptions. Like: Morgase would be burned alive before she got close enough. ie, they would treat Lanfear's channeling as a physical reality that needs to be considered. What do you think the point of RJ's answer was anyway?
So Lanfear's channeling needs to be considered with Morghase, but not with respect to Rand?

The point of RJ's answer? Yes, Rand could have fought back and given Lanfear a harder time. Given that he isn't exactly unskilled, he may even have had a shot at killing her. What it doesn't say, anywhere, is that because Rand could kill Lanfear then, it means he's definitely holding more of the Power.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 12:58 AM
So Lanfear's channeling needs to be considered with Morghase, but not with respect to Rand?
No, it's for both. I don't know why you feel the need to whine about every point youre wrong on.

Morgase couldn't kill Lanfear. From a practical perspective, Lanfear's channeling makes it impossible.

And I should say: linear or quadratic (with a<1)

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 01:00 AM
Or, it isn't strength levels that are the x-axis, you know. When your theory shows flagrantly absurd results, the sane thing to do is to give it up.

And how in the world do you get Rand being 2.3 times Nynaeve's strength? That makes absolutely no sense. It implies that Logain is at least twice as strong as Nynaeve, and in that case, he should have been able to break through her shield without even blinking his eyes.
By your insane logic, Nynaeve is five times as strong as the average sister (and still more than half-Rand)? Because one less than six, Logain would have gotten out.

And shielding is different for each gender pairing. But enjoy your madness. I know I told them not to block you, but this is getting ridiculous.

fdsaf3
03-13-2012, 01:21 AM
Care to show your work? I'm interested in the math proof. :)

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 01:32 AM
By your insane logic, Nynaeve is five times as strong as the average sister (and still more than half-Rand)? Because one less than six, Logain would have gotten out.
Why in the world would you assume such a thing? You do remember that circles add a level of precision and subtracts strength, right? But individual channelers can match that precision. For example, Samitsu says she can heal as well as a circle. Doesn't mean she is stronger than the added strength of each member in that circle! So, just because Nynaeve can almost match what a circle of five could do doesn't mean she's as strong as their combined strength!

And shielding is different for each gender pairing.
Evidence?

But enjoy your madness. I know I told them not to block you, but this is getting ridiculous.
Really? You come up with a scheme where 37.5% of the women in the world are stronger than Nynaeve, and you're calling what I say ridiculous?

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 01:44 AM
Care to show your work? I'm interested in the math proof. :)
Ah...I didn't bother proving it when I ran into the *BUT*.

But I'll walk you through the general process (and maybe another set of eyes will do me good):

The key is to work with straight z values as much as possible (u=0 sigma=1). But of course the challenge is that you need a reliable scale to solve the system.

But anyway...
Assuming strength is normally distributed for both men and women (so, u_xx u_xy (:D), sigma_xx, sigma_xy), you find that 62.5% of women can test for the shawl. And, strictly from a wattage perspective, 65.4 percent of men can too. So you can use that to get some z values, (I just used a z-table and got -0.32 and -0.4, but we'll want some more precision for primetime), and technically you can find the populations' standard deviations if you assume a mean for each (I used 10.5 and 12, you'll see why if you try 11 and 12.5 first). Now, if you figure that a 4 woman is on par with a 4 man when you take dexterity into account, you can use RJ's comment that the BT should only take 62.5% to the top, to get one data point.

The trick is the next one. I just said that a 21 xx was on par (counting dexterity) with a 23 xy. So then you got your data, you can work back for wattage.

ETA: You know, I think I see where I went wrong- the women need two curves. One for straight wattage, one for effectiveness.


AND, while fionwe is currently blocked, my spider shows a post of his. I reply with: clearly I didn't take the 37.5%>Nynaeve seriously. I am well aware of circle limitations. And, as a general rule, in cross gender match ups, men are more difficult to shield.

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 01:52 AM
No, it's for both. I don't know why you feel the need to whine about every point youre wrong on.
Where in the world did I whine? I've chellenged your points, raised points against them, shown quotes to disprove you... never once have I used the fact that you tenaciously hold to your position to ask people to ignore you. That was all you.

Morgase couldn't kill Lanfear. From a practical perspective, Lanfear's channeling makes it impossible.

It doesn't make it impossible. It makes it extremely unlikely.

But you still haven't addressed the central point. The fact that Rand could end the fight doesn't mean he was channeling more of the OP at that point. You've danced around that enough, don't you think?

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 01:54 AM
Ah...I didn't bother proving it when I ran into the *BUT*.

But I'll walk you through the general process (and maybe another set of eyes will do me good):

The key is to work with straight z values as much as possible (u=0 sigma=1). But of course the challenge is that you need a reliable scale to solve the system.

But anyway...
Assuming strength is normally distributed for both men and women (so, u_xx u_xy (:D), sigma_xx, sigma_xy), you find that 62.5% of women can test for the shawl. And, strictly from a wattage perspective, 65.4 percent of men can too. So you can use that to get some z values, (I just used a z-table and got -0.32 and -0.4, but we'll want some more precision for primetime), and technically you can find the populations' standard deviations if you assume a mean for each (I used 10.5 and 12, you'll see why if you try 11 and 12.5 first). Now, if you figure that a 4 woman is on par with a 4 man when you take dexterity into account, you can use RJ's comment that the BT should only take 62.5% to the top, to get one data point.

The trick is the next one. I just said that a 21 xx was on par (counting dexterity) with a 23 xy. So then you got your data, you can work back for wattage.
I leave you (again) with this quote:

Luckers
Is strength in the power evenly distributed? Would on a scale of one to one hundred the most channelers be on the 50 mark? (within a gender, of course).
Maria Simons
Jim described it as a bell curve, with most channelers in the middle.

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 01:55 AM
AND, while fionwe is currently blocked, my spider shows a post of his.
Wow, what a coward.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 02:23 AM
I leave you (again) with this quote:

Luckers
Is strength in the power evenly distributed? Would on a scale of one to one hundred the most channelers be on the 50 mark? (within a gender, of course).
Maria Simons
Jim described it as a bell curve, with most channelers in the middle.
Yeah. This was my thought as well. (??) You do see that first, Maria did not confirm that a scale of 100 had any merit. And second, as it is done within a gender, It wouldn't matter if she did. 3 feet or a yard, buddy. Rand's at 100 or 24 or purple.
Where in the world did I whine? I've chellenged your points, raised points against them, shown quotes to disprove you... never once have I used the fact that you tenaciously hold to your position to ask people to ignore you. That was all you.
I told people to unblock you, and repped you for your tenacity. Now I choose to block you myself. P==>Q, Q=/=>P. Never did I tell anyone to block you. But I know you slept through logic 101, so I'll let it slide.

As for your whining, I have a link. (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=finduser&u=32584)

It doesn't make it impossible. It makes it extremely unlikely.You do realize that you are making pretty much the exact opposite argument you made in the Egwene thread...who am I kidding. You don't. But I have the benefit of both: being right, and having evidence from RJ himself.
But you still haven't addressed the central point. The fact that Rand could end the fight doesn't mean he was channeling more of the OP at that point. You've danced around that enough, don't you think?Fine. He wasn't channeling more of the OP at that point. But, he could have (the many quotes).
Wow, what a coward.
That's me. Coward. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to add a new filter to my htttrack spider.

Good bye.

fionwe1987
03-13-2012, 02:46 AM
Its fascinating, watching you crashland your arguments. I suppose the weak withdrawal is icing on the cake.

Go ahead and ignore. I hear that's bliss.

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2012, 05:37 AM
Suppose it is a linear scale. Suppose further that there is a difference of four between the scales for men and women.
Then, if we measure Rand on the female scale, he would come at 25. Morgase comes at 1 (maybe 2, but 1 will work nicely). Now suppose that Rand killed 50,000 Trollocs at Maradon. That would mean that if she'd been there, then Morgase could have killed 2,000 Trollocs, all on her own.

Does anyone believe that?
If so, is that person perhaps interested in buying the Brooklyn Bridge?

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Suppose it is a linear scale. Suppose further that there is a difference of four between the scales for men and women.
Then, if we measure Rand on the female scale, he would come at 25. Morgase comes at 1 (maybe 2, but 1 will work nicely). Now suppose that Rand killed 50,000 Trollocs at Maradon. That would mean that if she'd been there, then Morgase could have killed 2,000 Trollocs, all on her own.

Does anyone believe that?
If so, is that person perhaps interested in buying the Brooklyn Bridge?
well, I did have a significantly steeper slope for men, when I said it could be linear. And I still think Maradon was not normal.

But the manor certainly was, and the spirit of your argument is well taken (by me, at least).

It'll be a little harder to get me to concede quadratic with a<1, even though my work is unreadable in the light of day.

Seth Baker
03-13-2012, 12:46 PM
It's funny, people with formal training and experience in logical discourse and statistics are telling him that there's a flaw in his argument, and he chooses to believe that the problem is everyone else and that he's right.

Oh, Internet.

Also, I do recall him complaining about my presumption that "several" equals 3. I was just accepting that since it's the least advantageous position for what I was arguing, and the most advantageous for his position. If you want to repeat your numbers using Rand at 25, 26, or 27, I'm fine with that too - it just makes my protestation all the more likely.

greatwolf
03-14-2012, 07:38 AM
I think you guys need to cool it down a bit. FWIW, I think i might have something that will make some things clearer.

As of tPoD, Elayne rated the three angreal for us. The weakest was the woman covered in hair. It multiplied Avi by a factor of 2. Next is the turtle, we're just told its stronger. Finally the bracelet and rings can take Elayne to 2x Nynaeve.

Given this, the minimum enhancement by the bracelet and rings would have to be x4, since the minimum we can attribute to the turtle, which is in between, would be x3. Anything less wouldn't count as a significant difference and Elayne shouldn't have said they're stronger.

Therefore if we do a little math, Nynaeve has to be able to draw at least 2X the amount of OP that Elayne can. From what I've read so far, it may well be that each point on the 21point scale represents a doubling of potential. The AS keep talking about people who are close but not equal. So it may be that they're talking of rather sharp differences when they say someone is stronger in the power.

Is this the way RJ intended it? IDK, but it seems a rather valid point to me.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 08:41 AM
I think you guys need to cool it down a bit. FWIW, I think i might have something that will make some things clearer.

As of tPoD, Elayne rated the three angreal for us. The weakest was the woman covered in hair. It multiplied Avi by a factor of 2. Next is the turtle, we're just told its stronger. Finally the bracelet and rings can take Elayne to 2x Nynaeve.

Given this, the minimum enhancement by the bracelet and rings would have to be x4, since the minimum we can attribute to the turtle, which is in between, would be x3. Anything less wouldn't count as a significant difference and Elayne shouldn't have said they're stronger.

Therefore if we do a little math, Nynaeve has to be able to draw at least 2X the amount of OP that Elayne can. From what I've read so far, it may well be that each point on the 21point scale represents a doubling of potential. The AS keep talking about people who are close but not equal. So it may be that they're talking of rather sharp differences when they say someone is stronger in the power.

Is this the way RJ intended it? IDK, but it seems a rather valid point to me.

This was my point about the steps not necessarily being linear. You're describing an exponential or cubic scale. That's the only way I can explain the rapid increase from the bottom of the channeling chart, where Morgase can barely even sense the Source; Sorilea can barely channel a flame... up to the top, where you're talking about enough of the Power to level entire armies.

If it's linear and even - purely additive (which it's not), then Lanfear is equal to the strength of 21 Morgases. Or Sheriam and Melaine together. Are we really to infer that a weak Angreal can give Sheriam more strength than Lanfear?

Doesn't it then follow that Moiraine's weak angreal, that she carried into the Two Rivers, should have made her as strong as Maradon Rand (12 x 2 = presumpted level 24)? If so, shouldn't she have been able to stand and fight against a few fists of Trollocs, a Myyrdraal, and a Draghkar? Surely, by being strength 24 (12 x 2), she'd be able to crush an entire army of Shadowspawn, and probably even stand up against Ishamael if he made an appearance in his corporeal form?

It just all falls into absurdity when you start looking at details if we accept that an angreal doubles one's power but each step only represents an incremental, linear gain. However, if each step represents a doubling (or something closer to doubling than to linear), then it begins to seem reasonable why someone reasonably strong can get a weak angreal and NOT immediately become Forsaken-level powerful.

greatwolf
03-14-2012, 09:51 AM
@Seth,
Exactly, that's why a think each level represents a large increase in the power. So I'll put Alivia a level above nynaeve and no more. But I won't also accept Lanfear more than a level above Alivia if at all.

But its BS's "six above nynaeve" that needs interpretation. Considering the bell curve, how many channelers would fit on the top level of a 21 point scale? Definitely it could be more than six if total population (data size) is in tens of thousands. (in the aol it was millions)

So we could put all six on level one. But putting six women on three levels of a 21 point scale is way out. I think 2levels is the maximum reasonable. So nyn is at worst level 19 at best 20.

As for the forsaken, I wonder if BS was wrong about semirhage. The sixth person above nyn seems to be the issue. (we already have Lanfear, Sharina, Alivia, Talaan and Cyndane) The sixth name could be one of Semirhage, Graendal, Someryn, Sera, Mora and Aloisia. I think we can drop Mesaana.

1. Semi - BS says she's not but I used to see her as the the strongest next to Lanfear for reasons earlier mentioned. One additional point here is that the forsaken were always the strongest of the DO's chosen. If these women are the strongest of an age of strong chanellers, realistically how far apart can we put them before some are too weak to be among the "elite"?

PS: Plus I would have loved it if semi had encountered nyn who had done things she couldn't even in a very primitive age and while having less strength to boot! A nice jolt to her ego possibly.

2. Graendal. she's stronger than someryn who is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. But nyn is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. So if nyn = someryn, then Graendal is stronger than both. But her attitude among the forsaken (RJ said a bit about their egos) makes one think she isn't all that strong. At least not enough to place her close to Lanfear. More likely she acts like she could be a level or at most two below lanfear which is about where nyn is.

3. Mora based on age. If her life expectancy is upto 900 years then she qualifies to be one of the strongest we've met. To compare, LTT's life expectancy is between 900-1200 years based on age and strength. (of course since he had gray hair early on, he probably wouldn't have made it to 800)

4. Tuon's sera - Is she the strongest damane on this side of the ocean? Or Alivia? It stands to reason that the Imperial family would have kept the strongest damane close. But it also makes military sense to send in your best weapons where the battle is hottest. And Altara was hot!

5. Someryn - strongest of the aiel is how strong? I could reverse my arguement in her favour.i.e since RJ said the forsaken tend to be egostical, Graendal might actually be calling her "considerable" when in fact she's actually stronger! And the only thing that keeps Graendal from eliminating a potential rival right then and there is that she's ignorant. (and of course the ring angreal)

6. Alosia. she's 600 years old and so must have left the WT hundreds of years before Cadsuane came in. And we know the WT covers its failures well. So if Cadsuane says none stronger has come in a thousand years, is she referring to merely OP strength? And we don't know how much she has slowed and how old she looks now.

greatwolf
03-14-2012, 09:53 AM
I noticed Reanne and Kirstian are similar in strength and age. But Kirstian appears younger. Does anyone know if Kirstian's gateway size has been described?

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 11:35 AM
As of tPoD, Elayne rated the three angreal for us. The weakest was the woman covered in hair. It multiplied Avi by a factor of 2. Next is the turtle, we're just told its stronger. Finally the bracelet and rings can take Elayne to 2x Nynaeve.

Given this, the minimum enhancement by the bracelet and rings would have to be x4, since the minimum we can attribute to the turtle, which is in between, would be x3. Anything less wouldn't count as a significant difference and Elayne shouldn't have said they're stronger.

Therefore if we do a little math, Nynaeve has to be able to draw at least 2X the amount of OP that Elayne can. From what I've read so far, it may well be that each point on the 21point scale represents a doubling of potential. The AS keep talking about people who are close but not equal. So it may be that they're talking of rather sharp differences when they say someone is stronger in the power.

Is this the way RJ intended it? IDK, but it seems a rather valid point to me.
BS told Tamyrlin that angreal were additive, didn't he? like a constant, fixed amount? I suppose there was an asterisk, so I guess it'll have to be confirmed. And, for Egwene's actions in the TV raid to make sense, it must be additive.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 11:38 AM
total population (data size) is in tens of thousands.
? where do you get this? less than ten thousand, surely, for the population of female channelers.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 12:10 PM
Words

I'm no statistician, but I'm not sure how you're extrapolating the bell curve without a standard deviation.

Even so, 6 doesn't necessarily mean, "6 in all the world," just "6 that we have been introduced to."

Grig
03-14-2012, 12:31 PM
Heh, I was about to ask about a Standard Deviation. And since Nynaeve is in a class of her own among Aes Sedai (even significantly above Cads), that strongly implies that the Standard Deviation is quite small. Nyn could easily be more than 3 SDs from the mean, which would pretty much work with 6 stronger channelers out of a population of 10k (that would be 30 stronger than her if she's exactly 3 SD from the mean, and since there haven't been AS as strong as her for a thousand years she's probably further than that), although I think 10k is a bit high, even taking into account all the Aiel and Windfinders.

greatwolf
03-15-2012, 11:05 AM
? where do you get this? less than ten thousand, surely, for the population of female channelers.

RJ gave us figures of 1% of total population(due to culling) and 2-3%(I'm still sure i saw 3-5%somewhere) for the aol population. The culling exists in RL and the figures are likely like that of the aol for the other societies.

Even with 1%, and the population of tar valon being about 700,000 we'll have 7K channelers in tar valon alone. Of course not all will be sparkers, and some will be male. Mat gave figures of about 160k x4 in FoH. (i got this wrong earlier) That means 6K+ aiel channelers.

And the seanchan lands have a greater land mass and greater population density (as per interviews) so we'll get even greater numbers from there. In all, maybe a hundred thouisand (0r two or three) that can channel or learn to. Male and female.

BS told Tamyrlin that angreal were additive, didn't he? like a constant, fixed amount? I suppose there was an asterisk, so I guess it'll have to be confirmed. And, for Egwene's actions in the TV raid to make sense, it must be additive.

Or it was written the way BS interpreted it. It won't be the first time he's inmterpreted a strength related issue differently from what's expected. But he's realized that and sometimes we get MAFOs instead of straight answers. And he keeps a heron mark blade close by when he hears of TLers. :)

Seriously though, that seanchan raid made Egwene look so incompetent that I doubt her image will ever recover. And just after the gains she made in KoD!

Heh, I was about to ask about a Standard Deviation. And since Nynaeve is in a class of her own among Aes Sedai (even significantly above Cads), that strongly implies that the Standard Deviation is quite small.

If i was better at statistics, I'd have done it myself. But like I said earlier, the total population size for channelers is quite large.

ETA: if we assume 100K channelers, (meaning global pop of 3-10 milion tops) we can assume that there are 10 divisions to either side of a median division containing the majority of channelers. The two extreme divisions (strongest and weakest channelers) will have the smallest data size. Then we try to figure out how many of this number we'll see onscreen i.e will be in the notes.

I think its best nyn is at worst level 19 and better level 20, even if she's included in same level with some who are slightly stronger.

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 11:16 AM
If i was better at statistics, I'd have done it myself. But like I said earlier, the total population size for channelers is quite large.

ETA: if we assume 100K channelers, (meaning global pop of 3-10 milion tops) we can assume that there are 10 divisions to either side of a median division containing the majority of channelers. The two extreme divisions (strongest and weakest channelers) will have the smallest data size. Then we try to figure out how many of this number we'll see onscreen i.e will be in the notes.

I think its best nyn is at worst level 19 and better level 20, even if she's included in same level with some who are slightly stronger.

The SD point is that you could have a tight grouping at the center with rapidly diminishing tails on either side, or you could have it much flatter. My intuition is that any bell curve that we get that gives a huge number of channelers stronger than Nynaeve is probably too flattened.

greatwolf
03-15-2012, 11:42 AM
The SD point is that you could have a tight grouping at the center with rapidly diminishing tails on either side, or you could have it much flatter. My intuition is that any bell curve that we get that gives a huge number of channelers stronger than Nynaeve is probably too flattened.

Yeah RJ said most channelers were in the middle of the curve. Six above Nyn isn't too many to fit into the last division on the scale.

ETA: From my OP
'No one has come to the Tower in a thousand years who could
match me. No one to match Meilyn or Kerene in almost six hundred. A thousand years ago, there would have
been fifty sisters or more who stood higher than this child. In another hundred years, though, she'll stand in the
first rank

Fifty (or more)above Moiraine? Then we should expect more people in these upper levels then. And notice Cadsuane contradicts herself somewhat. She knew that before Meilyn (600years back) there were a lot of strong channelers in the WT, but at the same time saying none of the fifty could match her? That doesn't fit well with probability unless she was speaking of more than just strength?

Grig
03-15-2012, 12:25 PM
That doesn't fit well with probability unless she was speaking of more than just strength?

They don't find anywhere near all the channelers. It's pretty easy to reason that if they're only finding say, 10% of the women that can channel (which is almost a top end of possibility, if we take the 1% of the population as gospel), the "bell curve" represented by the women they actually find will be even steeper than that representing women who can channel as a whole, due to the small chance of finding a channeler, then the even smaller chance that she's a standard deviation or three from the mean.

greatwolf
03-15-2012, 01:03 PM
Agreed, but that doesn't change the post at all.

Interestingly, I just realized that Tuon and Talaan are about same age and both look fourteen or fifteen. Does that mean Tuon will be as strong as Talaan?

Drat where are those quotes?

Grig
03-15-2012, 01:17 PM
Agreed, but that doesn't change the post at all.

I was addressing the "doesn't fit well with probability". If I was responding to the rest of the post, I would have quoted the relevant parts.

Interestingly, I just realized that Tuon and Talaan are about same age and both look fourteen or fifteen. Does that mean Tuon will be as strong as Talaan?

Jordan stated that sul'dam only slow if they actually channel themselves. Tuon has stated that she does not. In fact, several theories hinge on her finally channeling for the first time in the near future, and the ramifications from that act. Thus, it is unlikely she has slowed at all, and her youthful appearance is attributable to something else (small secondary sex characteristics and a slender build, one supposes).

greatwolf
03-15-2012, 01:30 PM
I was addressing the "doesn't fit well with probability".


Oh but AS don't "find" channelers. They wait for them to come.

Jordan stated that sul'dam only slow if they actually channel themselves. Tuon has stated that she does not.

How do we know she hasn't? She can see weaves, and there have been attempts on her life. A time when she might have channeled unknowingly? I believe most rivals won't plan an assasination to occur when Tuon's damane are nearby to foil it.

ETA: I've edited OP.

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 04:15 PM
How do we know she hasn't? She can see weaves, and there have been attempts on her life. A time when she might have channeled unknowingly? I believe most rivals won't plan an assasination to occur when Tuon's damane are nearby to foil it.
One of the sul'dam would have noticed afterward if she channeled even once, no? They can sense the ability, if it's exercised.

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 05:34 PM
One of the sul'dam would have noticed afterward if she channeled even once, no? They can sense the ability, if it's exercised.

Bingo. Good call. At least - the damane would sense it and tell a sul'dam in any likelihood.

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 05:59 PM
Bingo. Good call. At least - the damane would sense it and tell a sul'dam in any likelihood.
Yeah, I don't think she has ever channeled. She's too dogmatic, she really does believe it's 'wrong' to channel.

But now that I think about it, if she did, it's possible that any who noticed became selectively blind. A member of the Imperial Family and a sul'dam? They could have kept it secret, for the same reason Suroth did.

ETA:
of course, I still don't think she has. In any case, she's too young to have slowed much at all yet:
We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn’t.
So the reason greatwolf brought her up at all is void. Some people just look young.

Toss the dice
03-15-2012, 10:34 PM
The Tuon debate is a no-brainer. She hasn't channeled. Her young-looking appearance has nothing to do with the fact that she could learn to channel...she hasn't channeled. The MAIN reason she looks so young is because she's incredibly short, as well as slender. That's it.

The fact that she's a skinny midget (and has been her entire life) is completely unrelated to her being able to learn to channel. Also, Mat realizes it is quite clear that she is near his age when he gets a good look at her face...coincidentally the one physical feature that would be visibly affected by slowing.

Unless you think channeling stunts your physical growth? And even if you think so (it doesn't obviously), Tuon hasn't channeled, nor did she start channeling at age 5 - so it would be moot.

fionwe1987
03-16-2012, 12:14 AM
@greatwolf:

Facts don't seem to be the driving force in this thread, but here are some to consider:

You made an analysis of the three angreal that Elayne found in Ebou Dar. There was a mistake in there. It was the amber turtle that allowed Elayne to channel twice Nynaeve's strength, and it was stronger than the woman-with-long-hair one, which doubles Avi, as you said. The bracelet-and-rings is even stronger than the turtle. Meaning with it, Nynaeve is well above double her strength.

Now, Cadsuane's angreal is weaker than this one, yet during the Cleansing:

Cadsuane must have had an angreal of her own, from the amount of saidar she was drawing, more than Elza and Merise combined...

Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struck instead the inverted shield she had woven, erupting with a deafening roar fifty feet above her head. Even within the shield the air crackled, and her hair stirred and lifted. Without the aid of the angreal that looked a little like a shrike dangling from her bun, she would not have been able to hold the shield up.

Kneeling beside the girl, Cadsuane laid the swallow on the ground beside her, took the girl’s head in her hands and lessened the amount of saidar she was putting into the shield. Her abilities with Healing were no more than average, but she could wash away some of the girl’s exhaustion at least without falling over herself. She was very conscious of the weakened shield over them, though, and she wasted no time in forming the weaves.

So, with all the strength of her angreal, Cadsuane can deflect Cyndane's lightnings. I hope (not much given the track record of some participants in this thread) that we can all agree that Cyndane is in the upper echelons of strength among both men and women? Given that Cadsuane can match her with a weather angreal than Nynaeve's, can anyone tell me by what metric Nynaeve wouldn't exceed Rand with her angreal?

And here I would like to also include the concept of "effective strength". We've danced about it, of course, but getting into using it more regularly is always helps.

Basically, the idea is that while Rand would be at a theoretical level 24/25/26 compared to Lanfear's placement at 21, when it comes to what the strongest man (Rand) can do, he's only as effective as the strongest woman (Lanfear). Meaning, all other factors being equal (including Talents and strengths in the five powers), any weave Rand makes will be as effective as the same weave from Lanfear (I'm referring to pre-Zen Rand here).

I've seen it described this way, and agree with it: think of dexterity as a factor that you multiply base strength with to get effective strength. You can take this factor to be 1 for women and 0.8 for men, say.

Thus, counting strength in arbitrary units, if Lanfear's strength is 100 and Rand's 125, their effective strengths would be equal at 100.

Now, we don't know know exactly how strong Nynaeve is compared to Lanfear. I would place her at 85-90, others put her at 80, still others at 70. Even that low, Nynaeve would be stronger than Rand in both actual and effective terms. You can play with the numbers add you like. Put Rand at 150 actual strength to Lanfear's 100 and play around with the factors. But the fact remains that no sane metric, no remotely reasonable metric, can place Nynaeve plus her angreal as weaker than Rand.

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 12:42 AM
That's MUCH more compelling than the earlier arguments, but it's still not inevitable: Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear; I believe Rand increased in strength between WH and KOD (hence why RJ didn't stop writing many Rand POVs until KOD). Still, the argument does provide some significant insight into the role these angreal play in the individual's strength. Still, I think that argument is strong enough to have me convinced.

All it takes is evidence, and I'll accept the argument.

fionwe1987
03-16-2012, 12:48 AM
That's MUCH more compelling than the earlier arguments, but it's still not inevitable: Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear; I believe Rand increased in strength between WH and KOD (hence why RJ didn't stop writing many Rand POVs until KOD). Still, the argument does provide some significant insight into the role these angreal play in the individual's strength. Still, I think that argument is strong enough to have me convinced.

All it takes is evidence, and I'll accept the argument.
This is the same evidence restated, though. There is no earth shattering revelation in my post above.

And yes, Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and Rand, I agree, increased from WH to KoD. What these facts have to do with my argument I'm not sure of, though...

greatwolf
03-16-2012, 05:01 AM
BS told Tamyrlin that angreal were additive, didn't he? like a constant, fixed amount? I suppose there was an asterisk, so I guess it'll have to be confirmed. And, for Egwene's actions in the TV raid to make sense, it must be additive.

Sa'angreal had no power of their own, of course – they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel – but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.

That doesn't sound like additive to me. In fact additive sounds like a well to me, almost.

I hope (not much given the track record of some participants in this thread)

Not nice. Remember there'll always be new people on the board, people who only started reading WoT of recent and may have skimmed the earlier books and not fully grasped much of what some of us take for granted.

That said, thanks for the correction on the angreal. At least it restores my faith in the strength of angreal and also in Cyndane's abilities. In view of this Nyn might surpass LTT with the bracelets and rings.Might because the differences in how much saidar you draw seems to be exponential as you go up, but that is just speculation from me. Enough reason for her to wear it. FWIW, Cadsuane probably hopes hers is enough to match the dragon as well. A foolish hope as Cyndane vs Alivia demonstrated. But I digress.

For the strength list, lets consider that the women are ranked from 1 to 100% with Lanfear being at 100%. The 21 point scale could then be divided into 21 levels each of about 4.76% equal increments. So in each of those 21 division would be women whose strength vary by 0% to roughly 5%. Anything larger would have to be on another level!

Furthermore, at the lower end of the scale, small differences would be easily noticed. A woman on 2% is clearly stronger than 1%! Even 1.5% would be stronger. But at the upper end, things become less distinct. What's the difference between 91.5% and 91%? That doesn't mean there isn't any difference, just less distinct.

In view of this, I don't think Sharina could be as much as 5% off Lanfear or it would be clearly noticeable (and it wouldn't be speculation but error to say she could reach) but should be as close as 2% or less.

Did I miss out anything?

greatwolf
03-16-2012, 05:52 AM
@greatwolf:

Facts don't seem to be the driving force in this thread, but here are some to consider:

If you're referring to your arguements on gateway size and strength, then you might be misreading me. I can accept your arguements but what does it mean? That Logain was wrong? Or that there are errors in the books?

The latter I leave for confirmation from BS and team jordan. But Logain most likely knew about Androl but may have seen him as an exception to the rule. If everyone else's gate turns out to be proportional to their strength except Androl, then its a reasonable conclusion.

Dismounting, she drew on saidar without using the angreal and wove a gateway just tall enough for her to lead Loversknot through onto grassland dotted with thickets of black-spotted beech and trees she did not recognize. The sun was a golden ball only a little down from its peak, yet the air was decidedly cooler than in Tear. Cold enough to make her gather her cloak, in fact. Mountains topped with snow and clouds rose to the east and north and south. As soon as Lan was through, she let the weave dissipate and immediately wove another gateway, larger, while she climbed into her saddle and settled the cloak around her again.

Yes nyn can vary her gateway size, but who else? And is the larger gate possible because of her angreal? Does everyone else open a gate according to current strength? I wouldn't read much into a gateway made by LT for example, since he has a Talent for Travelling. Or appears to. But if everyone knew how to, Logain's statement is meaningless. Rand might not have made his largest deathgates, and thus he might be able to draw more safely.

I'm not taking a position on this, just letting you know what the books say. And RJ has established that there are limits all along. Especially for gateways.

I'll need some time to recheck the rest of the evidence. You could too.

greatwolf
03-16-2012, 06:10 AM
One of the sul'dam would have noticed afterward if she channeled even once, no? They can sense the ability, if it's exercised.

No they can't. Or won't.

"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before

They should be able to sense the fact that they themselves can channel? I doubt it, anyway we're not told anywhere that Suldam can sense the ability except through their damane iirc.


of course, I still don't think she has. In any case, she's too young to have slowed much at all yet:

Thread fatigue? its already been posted but here:


I asked Jordan when a man with the spark would slow. He hesitated and rubbed his chin, obviously trying to make up the answer on the spot, and doing it to be consistent with the books.
ROBERT JORDAN
The answer is: Women usually slow at twenty, sometimes a little earlier, but usually around there. Men wouldn't slow until twenty-five, usually closer to thirty. He claims that they could go past thirty, but that probably depends on how early they start and how much they channel.
RYAN R.
So, if Taim started at twenty or so, like Rand (actually, that's later than Rand), and channeled a reasonable amount, he would probably slow at twenty-seven or thereabouts. After all, Nynaeve started probably at sixteen or seventeen, and only channeled on the uncommon occasion that someone was dying in her presence of some disease, and slowed at twenty-three (that's the age Setalle Anan thought she was, but she's twenty-six). That's seven years or so.

ETA:
@Toss the dice.

“How old are you?” He had heard that she was only a few years younger than he, but looking at her in that sack of a dress, it seemed impossible.
To his surprise, that dangerous spark burst into flame. Not just heat lightning, this time. He should have been fried on the spot. Tuon threw back her shoulders and drew herself to her full height. Such as that was; he doubted she could reach five feet with her heels flat however she stretched. “My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months,” she said in a voice that was far from cold. In fact, it could have heated the wagon better than the stove. He felt a moment of hope, but she was not finished. “No; you keep your birth names here, don’t you. That will be my twentieth nam*ing day.

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 08:35 AM
This is the same evidence restated, though. There is no earth shattering revelation in my post above.

And yes, Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and Rand, I agree, increased from WH to KoD. What these facts have to do with my argument I'm not sure of, though...

I disagree; there is something completely new in this post. Here, you brought up that Cadsuane (14) + angreal (x2) > Cyndane (20) by some significant amount. Previously you were arguing that Nynaeve (18) + angreal (x2) > Rand (24-25); but you hadn't given any reason why we should accept that 18 x 2 is not 22 or 23 based upon my offering that the numerical levels assigned by RJ might not be perfectly linear. You provided no evidence to even support your supposition that the scales we are dealing with actually increase evenly and regularly from one level to the next. You offered an intuitive argument, but there was no REASON to accept it over the equally intuitive possibility that the gap in strength increased as the scale increased, such that Rand has more strength than 25 Morgases or 13 Sorileas.

You've provided some evidence of that, now. By showing an instance where a (x2) angreal easily bridged the gap from 14 to 20, you've convinced me that, even if the steps are not perfectly flat - they're close enough that a (x2+) angreal wielded by an 18 is enough to bridge the gap to 24-25.

Not nice. Remember there'll always be new people on the board, people who only started reading WoT of recent and may have skimmed the earlier books and not fully grasped much of what some of us take for granted.


If you're talking about me, I don't spend much time on the boards and haven't been to any cons, but I have at least 10 rereads under my belt and have spent a fair amount of time lurking here. Don't confuse my stance for firm belief that my theory on those scales was right; just mild annoyance that he had stated something as truth without providing any kind of logic to support that point.

E: He was making an affirmative statement with an axiom (linear increase). I was questioning the affirmative statement by pointing out the possibility that his axiom was incorrect (cubic/exponential increase). If my theory was not disproven by the text, it meant that his was not necessarily true. That's what I was trying to get at. He hadn't proven his idea, and I wanted him to.

Now that he has, I'm happy.

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2012, 08:52 AM
Nitpick: the idea may not be proven or disproven, yet.

After all, there may be a distance factor too, as well as possibly others.
Cadsuane had her shield very close to her (a few dozen feet, or so). Cyndane, on the other hand, was channeling from much farther away. And it is possible (likely) that she was doing other things too, such as maintaining a shield of her own, keeping a gateway in reserve, and so forth. Thus, we do not have all that much reason to assume that in this specific case we saw Cyndane's full strength in a full on clash with Cadsuane and her angreal.

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 09:11 AM
Nitpick: the idea may not be proven or disproven, yet.

After all, there may be a distance factor too, as well as possibly others.
Cadsuane had her shield very close to her (a few dozen feet, or so). Cyndane, on the other hand, was channeling from much farther away. And it is possible (likely) that she was doing other things too, such as maintaining a shield of her own, keeping a gateway in reserve, and so forth. Thus, we do not have all that much reason to assume that in this specific case we saw Cyndane's full strength in a full on clash with Cadsuane and her angreal.

True. Not proven, but he's given good enough evidence for me to accept it as reasonable. At the very minimum, they're relatively close; Cadsuane was even able to weaken the shield without Cyndane breaking through.

That's what I'd call "clear and convincing evidence," just not "without a reasonable doubt."

fionwe1987
03-16-2012, 11:44 AM
Not nice. Remember there'll always be new people on the board, people who only started reading WoT of recent and may have skimmed the earlier books and not fully grasped much of what some of us take for granted.
If that were the case, do you really think this discussion would have gone the way it did? The problem wasn't that people hadn't read the books. The problem was that they demanded evidence, while doing little in the way of proving their own point. And then ignored what evidence was provided...

That said, thanks for the correction on the angreal. At least it restores my faith in the strength of angreal and also in Cyndane's abilities. In view of this Nyn might surpass LTT with the bracelets and rings.Might because the differences in how much saidar you draw seems to be exponential as you go up, but that is just speculation from me. Enough reason for her to wear it. FWIW, Cadsuane probably hopes hers is enough to match the dragon as well. A foolish hope as Cyndane vs Alivia demonstrated. But I digress.
Cadsuane isn't going to be as hapless against Rand as Alivia is against Cyndane. For one, Cadsuane is far from unskilled. For another, she actually knows how to make use of her ter'angreal. Most importantly, while Alivia had no experience fighting reversed (and hence unseeable) weaves, Cadsuane has successfully fought ten male channelers and got them alive to Tar Valon.

None of this means she would have succeeded, of course, but it makes her confidence the first time she confronts Rand a little more understandable.

For the strength list, lets consider that the women are ranked from 1 to 100% with Lanfear being at 100%. The 21 point scale could then be divided into 21 levels each of about 4.76% equal increments. So in each of those 21 division would be women whose strength vary by 0% to roughly 5%. Anything larger would have to be on another level!
Exactly!

Furthermore, at the lower end of the scale, small differences would be easily noticed. A woman on 2% is clearly stronger than 1%! Even 1.5% would be stronger. But at the upper end, things become less distinct. What's the difference between 91.5% and 91%? That doesn't mean there isn't any difference, just less distinct.
This is again true.
In view of this, I don't think Sharina could be as much as 5% off Lanfear or it would be clearly noticeable (and it wouldn't be speculation but error to say she could reach) but should be as close as 2% or less.
Agreed. I would place Sharina at a minimum of 95, and Nynaeve at a minimum of 85, but more likely 90.

If you're referring to your arguements on gateway size and strength, then you might be misreading me. I can accept your arguements but what does it mean? That Logain was wrong? Or that there are errors in the books?

The latter I leave for confirmation from BS and team jordan. But Logain most likely knew about Androl but may have seen him as an exception to the rule. If everyone else's gate turns out to be proportional to their strength except Androl, then its a reasonable conclusion.
I simply think Logain was mistaken. Given that this is a new weave and knowledge about it isn't widespread, it is easy to correlate it to strength, and that is what Logain did. Doesn't make him right, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Yes nyn can vary her gateway size, but who else?
You need, perhaps, to read the books again yourself. I can show you quotes where Moghedien makes a Gateway small enough to fit her tent, Egwene makes one small enough to fit a narrow storeroom, Elayne makes one small enough to enter a tiny holding cell, Cadsuane says she can make one small enough to crawl through, a random Asha'man guarding the Black tower makes two different sized Gateways in a matter of minutes in front of Pevara, Elayne makes a smaller Gateway when she's tired... and these are just from memory. And there is no logical reason for Gateway sizes not to be variable. Any weave can be regulated and made more or less powerful by changing the amount of OP you put into it. The Gateway has an upper imit on how much OP you can add to increase its size, sure, but there's ample evidence that the same isn't true in the other direction.

And is the larger gate possible because of her angreal?
Clearly not, since there is no mention of her drawing through her angreal, and a clear mention that she was not doing so.

Does everyone else open a gate according to current strength? I wouldn't read much into a gateway made by LT for example, since he has a Talent for Travelling. Or appears to. But if everyone knew how to, Logain's statement is meaningless. Rand might not have made his largest deathgates, and thus he might be able to draw more safely.
Except Rand himself says his largest Gateway size is four paces by four, and Logain could probably feel the sense of strain a man feels when another is holding to his limit.

I'm not taking a position on this, just letting you know what the books say. And RJ has established that there are limits all along. Especially for gateways.
Yes, and he has also established that those limits have less to do with the OP alone, and is dependent on a lot of other factors.

I'll need some time to recheck the rest of the evidence. You could too.
Do that. I don't need to since I've had this debate like a million times. :)