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final death
02-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Before commenting please understand I don't want this to degenerate into a egwene hate thread. I only mentioned her because she is a great example of my point.:o
I find it strange that people complain about so many relatively small things in the WOT. Yet it's incredibly rare for someone to complain about the plot armor surrounding the good guys. Not to mention the only partially competent villain in the series so far has been a non channeller(i.e. Pedron Naill). Its sad because i haven't felt afraid or worried for any main character since book 3. Not when rand was in the box. Not at dumai well. not at the cleansing. Not even when rand was ambushed by rouge asha'man. The truth is plot armor is strong in these ones. Another possible person who could have been a good competent villain is Egwene. Unfortunately we saw in the towers of midnight that even Egwene would not be able to stand against plot plate armor that rand had on.

LadyFiona
02-27-2012, 07:15 PM
I think this is the entire reason for the mechanics of ta'veren in the books. It creates this dirty little loophole to add to our suspension of disbelief. Extremely bizarre and unlikely coincidences are easily shrugged off as the influence of ta'veren.This is not GRRM. The apparent protagonist is obviously not going to die before he's fulfilled his destiny. He could certainly die afterward, though, barring body swaps or Deus Ex Machina.

That being said, Elayne should have died a long time ago if it were up to me...

The characters have not been unscathed. Rand has lost a hand, has nearly died multiple times, and has horrific unhealed wounds. Mat has nearly died, died, and lost an eye. Handy Aes Sedai Healing has intervened to keep characters alive that would otherwise not be.

The characters that we are pretty sure aren't going to die until the last battle have all been either ta'veren, powerful channelers who can defend themselves, (or both in Rand's case) or a companion traveling with one of the above.

Fain doesn't count as a non-channeling competent villain? Crazy, yes. Stupid, no.

newyorkersedai
02-27-2012, 07:34 PM
Fiona is exactly right (I will not call you "Milady") - there's a built-in system that protects certain people: the Pattern itself will push things in the "right" direction to stop the Shadow. Also, so long as the Wheel turns, history is sort of bound to repeat itself; this means that Time itself is trying to loop back around, so The Dragon should survive long enough to break the world, face the DO, etc.

Also, the best villains we've got - Moridin, Fain, the DO, and Demandred - are all folks who haven't given us much idea as to what they're doing or ultimately planning. This can deflate your sense of dread or concern, but for many, this story has been plenty tense, and I don't know how things will turn out for our heroes.

The Unreasoner
02-27-2012, 08:38 PM
Alviarin was a decent villain. Niall was awesome.

And, the dark side of me has always had a soft spot for Bors.

I liked Elaida...until she took the Seat.

I always see a lot of Gareth Bryne, Elayne and Egwene hate. Maybe pent-up rage from letting Rand slide (ta'veren) is released on those we are sure are not.

LadyFiona
02-27-2012, 11:05 PM
I always see a lot of Gareth Bryne, Elayne and Egwene hate. Maybe pent-up rage from letting Rand slide (ta'veren) is released on those we are sure are not.

Eh, I've never really thought about it that way. I like Egwene more than Elayne. Pretty much the only redeeming thing about Elayne is Birgitte. I wouldn't want to put Birgitte through bond-loss, but she's a tough girl, she might be able the drink her way through it. The main reason I would want her gone...like 6 books ago, aside from her horribly awkward, forced romance, is the red-hot-poker-in-the-eye torture of her "securing the throne" storyline. I have a very low tolerance for reading about political maneuvering, but when it is agonizingly slow, takes up large chunks of several books, and revolves around a character sulky enough to ambush Rand so she can get her piece of the polyamory pie...

/headdesk

The Unreasoner
02-28-2012, 02:45 AM
If we wrote off every character who bored us at some point...we would be down to Bashere, Tovere, Aviendha and Cadsuane.

Zombie Sammael
02-28-2012, 03:56 AM
If we wrote off every character who bored us at some point...we would be down to Bashere, Tovere, Aviendha and Cadsuane.

Bashere's a little dull.

greatwolf
02-28-2012, 04:08 AM
Before commenting please understand I don't want this to degenerate into a egwene hate thread. I only mentioned her because she is a great example of my point.:o
I find it strange that people complain about so many relatively small things in the WOT. Yet it's incredibly rare for someone to complain about the plot armor surrounding the good guys. Not to mention the only partially competent villain in the series so far has been a non channeller(i.e. Pedron Naill). Its sad because i haven't felt afraid or worried for any main character since book 3. Not when rand was in the box. Not at dumai well. not at the cleansing. Not even when rand was ambushed by rouge asha'man. The truth is plot armor is strong in these ones. Another possible person who could have been a good competent villain is Egwene. Unfortunately we saw in the towers of midnight that even Egwene would not be able to stand against plot plate armor that rand had on.

Maybe you've missed a part of the plot itself. Rand has a prophesied death waiting. Both the pattern and the DO want it that way. But others have tried to kill him. See what semirhage got for the attack on Rand. Rand survival upto now has important to the shadow.

And he is prophesied to bring another breaking. If I were Moridin, I'd be wondering how the pattern meant to use his death to win and planning how to prevent the pattern being able to do anything at that point and not before. That is, let the DO free just before Rand dies, and let him break the pattern.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2012, 04:44 AM
Sevanna was pretty competent too. Outmatched, eventually, but that doesn't diminish her competence.
And, seeing as how I would consider the Seanchan to be villains too, I think that Fortuona (and, earlier, Suroth) should go on the "competent villain" list too.

And, of course, on the other side, the "stuff them back into a spare body if they die" thing that the Shadow has going is also fairly impressive plot armor. Both Ishamael and Shadar Haran have benefitted from that.

Weiramon
02-28-2012, 11:55 AM
Not to mention the only partially competent villain in the series so far has been a non channeller(i.e. Pedron Naill).

Burn my eyes, it's Niall!

1eyedfool
02-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Suroth (Sabelle Melderath) was no fool too.

final death
02-29-2012, 05:24 PM
Do not get me wrong i love the books. I've read the Books all the way through at least 4 times. I know its all justified in book I'm just saying that I haven't felt scared for anyones life. The biggest most significant death is. I know about Ta'veren. The book is supposed to be a form of entertainment though at its most primitive level. That is what i tend to judge things on.

Tamyrlin
03-01-2012, 10:09 AM
That's a nice way to look at the Wheel and Threads.

I have to say it would have been nice to see the Dark One's influence weaken such "armor" earlier in the series. We see some of that with the blinding of the Dragon, the purposeless hunts pushing back Perrin's realization of his Talents, Fain's influence on Egwene, and the obvious influence on the Dark One on Mat...ok, that's just plain immaturity (which in and of itself is a nice play on the traditional devil made me do it mentality).

It goes back to the Wheel being a tightly controlled system in it's programatic need for Balance; interestingly enough, as the most amazing super computer and all, as readers we can't help but detect what appears to us as computer logic of sorts pulling strings from behind a curtain...which is, in essence, what the Wheel is. Funny.

~sneaks back behind the curtain~

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2012, 10:19 AM
To use that computer analogy: would the Forsaken then be malware (Graendal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Kournikova_(computer_virus)))?

LadyFiona
03-01-2012, 07:36 PM
To use that computer analogy: would the Forsaken then be malware (Graendal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Kournikova_(computer_virus)))?

LOL :D

So then when Rand balefired Rhavin and brought people back from the dead, that was like him using the "System Restore" feature.

Seeker
03-01-2012, 08:14 PM
Before commenting please understand I don't want this to degenerate into a egwene hate thread. I only mentioned her because she is a great example of my point.:o
I find it strange that people complain about so many relatively small things in the WOT. Yet it's incredibly rare for someone to complain about the plot armor surrounding the good guys. Not to mention the only partially competent villain in the series so far has been a non channeller(i.e. Pedron Naill). Its sad because i haven't felt afraid or worried for any main character since book 3. Not when rand was in the box. Not at dumai well. not at the cleansing. Not even when rand was ambushed by rouge asha'man. The truth is plot armor is strong in these ones. Another possible person who could have been a good competent villain is Egwene. Unfortunately we saw in the towers of midnight that even Egwene would not be able to stand against plot plate armor that rand had on.

This is one where I'm gonna disagree. Rj has always been good at suspence and most of the first few books made it feel as if the characters survived by the skin of their teeth. The first few books were packed with suspence and Gathering Storm - while not an action book - really had the feel of "is this the point where Rand finally snaps?"

But.

I will say this. There is one point where Rj totally killed the suspence and it's the scene where Rand and company fend off 100 000 trollocs ar Lord Algarin's manor. Really? 100 000? What are they just completely useless now? Remember when a dozen trollocs were a major danger? Wasn't that better?

GonzoTheGreat
03-02-2012, 03:46 AM
I will say this. There is one point where Rj totally killed the suspence and it's the scene where Rand and company fend off 100 000 trollocs ar Lord Algarin's manor. Really? 100 000? What are they just completely useless now? Remember when a dozen trollocs were a major danger? Wasn't that better?
For thousands of years, the savages sweeping down on horses, waving swords, from Siberia into Europe were a deadly and often unopposable threat. They frequently obliterated any army civilised countries could raise against them. Until guns became just a little bit more effective. Then the threat was gone, and any new attacks would simply be wiped out whenever convenient.

The same happened to Trollocs. Their ferocity and effectiveness did not change. That of Rand and his followers did, and that tipped the balance far enough.

Note: if the Trollocs had had an air force, as the ones facing Ituralde at Maradon had, then they could have still gotten into the house with Rand. At which point he would have had to choose between running away (using a gateway) or dieing on the spot. And if they'd had one or more channelers offering supporting fire (as the ones at Maradon did), then that would have helped too.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-02-2012, 11:35 AM
I will say this. There is one point where Rj totally killed the suspence and it's the scene where Rand and company fend off 100 000 trollocs ar Lord Algarin's manor. Really? 100 000? What are they just completely useless now? Remember when a dozen trollocs were a major danger? Wasn't that better?

I actually like this scene..partially for the visceral reaction of HOW he kills them..but I think the inent for this is to show how much Rand has changed...as a person, a leader, a fighter. it also shows him, I think, how much his instinctive reactions have changed and the immensity of his abilities. Big step for the boy who feared strangers to fighting ten trollocs to killing thousands. Necessary changes in his acceptance of facing the DO methinks.

Seeker
03-02-2012, 10:54 PM
I actually like this scene..partially for the visceral reaction of HOW he kills them..but I think the inent for this is to show how much Rand has changed...as a person, a leader, a fighter. it also shows him, I think, how much his instinctive reactions have changed and the immensity of his abilities. Big step for the boy who feared strangers to fighting ten trollocs to killing thousands. Necessary changes in his acceptance of facing the DO methinks.

You don't have to take out every TIE fighter and capital ship to blow up the Death Star. All you have to do is get close enough and make a precise shot.

Why should Rand need the ability to take out armies of shadowspawn just to seal the dark one? Unless my theory is correct and this is the turning where he kills the Dark One. In which case his massive power spike is a set up. We'll have to see.

GonzoTheGreat
03-03-2012, 03:19 AM
Rand doesn't need the ability to destroy oodles of Shadowspawn, perhaps. But he does need the ability to actually repair the damage to the DO's prison. And that will take a lot of power (as well as precision, knowledge, luck and duct tape).
He can use that large amount of power in other ways too, and that's what he did at Maradon. But then, as he said, there's the danger that when he is destroying things, he might destroy things. Specifically: he might end up facing the DO when that suits the latter a lot more than it would suit Rand.

Seeker
03-03-2012, 10:01 AM
Rand doesn't need the ability to destroy oodles of Shadowspawn, perhaps. But he does need the ability to actually repair the damage to the DO's prison. And that will take a lot of power.

How do you know that?

Healing severing was thought to be impossible until Nynaeve discovered the method but it didn't require a lot of power; it required a feather touch, a surgeon's delicacy. Nynaeave found the exact spot in Logain's brain that had been damaged and repaired it. In the end, the weave was fairly simple. Almost any Yellow Sister could craft that weave if IF SHE KNEW WHERE TO PUT THE FLOWS. That's the problem. Most people could not heal severing because they did not know WHAT to repair.

The difficulty of a task is not related to the amount of raw power involved. And we know nothing about what Rand is going to do in the next book, so your argument falls flat.


He can use that large amount of power in other ways too, and that's what he did at Maradon. But then, as he said, there's the danger that when he is destroying things, he might destroy things. Specifically: he might end up facing the DO when that suits the latter a lot more than it would suit Rand.

There is something interesting that happens whenever we have one of these threads. People tell me WHAT has happened in the story as if I didn't already know. I, on the other hand am asking WHY the author made those choices.

Recall that the point of this thread was that the original poster felt that the characters in this series were shielded from danger by some kind of invisible Deus Ex Machina. I disagree because the characters have experienced lots and lots of danger. The only time I felt that “plot armour” was justified as a criticism is the scene in which 100 000 trollocs attack fifty some odd channelers and the channelers come out unscathed. That makes the channelers too powerful for me to enjoy the story. (I don't have to underline the words “for me,” do I? You do understand that I am not expecting other people to simply agree).

But the point of this thread is not about stating WHAT happened in the book but whether or not we liked it. I didn't like the scene with the 100 000 trollocs and I've stated my reasons why. If you disagree, that's okay too.

However – and I will state this again so that no one thinks I'm being unfair – the scene with the 100 000 trollocs is the exception not the rule. Most conflict scenes in this series are tight, well-executed and full of suspense. After all, if they weren't, I wouldn't have read all 13 books.

Zombie Sammael
03-03-2012, 10:44 AM
For me, the bit at Algarin's Manor - and similarly, the scene with Rand Sedai protecting Maradon - served to demonstrate how far Rand (and by reflection, other characters) had come. 10 Trollocs was a frightening experience to the boy shepherd who left the Two Rivers, but 100,000 was barely a threat to the Dragon Reborn. I didn't feel they had "plot armour" on or were indestructible during the Algarin's Manor attack. In fact, in a way, Rand was at his most vulnerable during and directly following that event, with all the business about Lews Therin snatching away saidin and the way it seemed to send him even further into his own darkness.

As Seeker says, I'm just stating the reasons why I'm okay with the scene while he wasn't, but I do feel there is a danger in focusing too much on the numbers game. It could have been any number of Trollocs; 100,000 might as well have been plucked from thin air. To answer the question about why the author chose to have Rand defeat a frighteningly large number of Trollocs, the point was to emphasise how dangerous Rand is now. Also note that Rand would have been in considerably more danger had they been able to get close, but the point was they couldn't.

Ozymandias
03-03-2012, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure the quoted number was 100,000, but rather "tens of thousands," but I take your point, so the number is immaterial in a theoretical sense (though the relative ease of physical difficulty of killing even 10,000 less Trollocs means the exact number is very important).



Recall that the point of this thread was that the original poster felt that the characters in this series were shielded from danger by some kind of invisible Deus Ex Machina. I disagree because the characters have experienced lots and lots of danger. The only time I felt that “plot armour” was justified as a criticism is the scene in which 100 000 trollocs attack fifty some odd channelers and the channelers come out unscathed. That makes the channelers too powerful for me to enjoy the story. (I don't have to underline the words “for me,” do I? You do understand that I am not expecting other people to simply agree).

Well I can certainly understand your disaffection with that scene, but recall that those Trollocs are going against the most powerful channeler ever born (Rand), along with Logain, who seems to be one of the more powerful Asha'man; Nynaeve, who is arguably a top 5 or 6 female channeler alive, and nearly two dozen other channelers. Some of whom have angreal. So its hardly a normal situation. In many ways it demonstrates the true value of channelers in value, which isn't so much in killing the other guy as it is negating the enemy's channelers.

In that light, it seems to me to be most reasonable that Rand & Co managed to kill that many Trollocs.


However – and I will state this again so that no one thinks I'm being unfair – the scene with the 100 000 trollocs is the exception not the rule. Most conflict scenes in this series are tight, well-executed and full of suspense. After all, if they weren't, I wouldn't have read all 13 books.

And now I'm going to reverse tack and disagree with you, and say that the fight scenes in this series have become ever more unreasonable. I understand that as Rand & Co. progress in their abilities and responsibilites, the threats they face have to become commensurately more difficult. I thought RJ handled this better than Sanderson; while you do get scenes like those at Algarin's Manor, for the most part, the issue is increasingly threats from within, and higher level threats (e.g. Forsaken, gholam, etc) as devices like Trollocs and Myrdraal become increasingly irrelevant, especially for Rand. This makes a great deal of sense. I feel that where Sanderson has let himself come off the rails a bit is that Rand no longer faces those threats, nor does Perrin (only Mat faces a threat commensurate to his own abilities in the gholam).

Rand, for example, no longer fences with the Forsaken; his challenges (aside from fixing himself) have been (a) balefire Graendal, and (b) slaughter half a million Trollocs singlehandedly at Maradon. Thats the kind of plot device which seems poor to me. I thought the scene at Algarin's Manor amply demonstrated that Rand has nothing to fear from any number of Shadowspawn short of the numbers that will be present at the Last Battle. It seemed silly to have Sanderson reinforce that at Maradon.

So I guess its contradictory, Seeker, but I disagree with you in that I thought the battle scene in Tear required little suspension of disbelief (within the context of the series), but I think that the combat scenes have increasingly grown stale as Rand has been set up as a more and more powerful being. Mat is the exception to this. Perrin I don't want to even discuss... I understand the ta'veren concept is in play, but his ability to emerge from battle unscathed, and his greater abilities in T'A'R over Slayer (despite being a wolf) just don't make sense. Rand at the very least has been built up as the most powerful person to ever walk Randland short of the two deities. Perrin is just some dude... and again, most of this has come in the last several books. His story arc made sense in the context of fighting individual Aiel, or Masema... but to wade headfirst into a sea of Shadowspawn and come out with a rolled ankle? Come now, BS, you can do better.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-03-2012, 01:45 PM
Why should Rand need the ability to take out armies of shadowspawn just to seal the dark one?

He doesn't. I see this scene as fulfilling his own need to believe in himself. I equate it a bit to the Aes Sedai testing...the ability to perform intricate weaves without thought, with huge distractions occurring around you, and not really knowing consciously WHY you need to make the weave. I always saw that as a key scene in his acceptance of what he can do as well as what he is capable of (in a nasty, ewwww kind of way)

One more step towards believing he can beat the DO. I woul have to go back and look, but when does his thinking turn from "facing the DO" to "defeating the DO"

Seeker
03-03-2012, 03:46 PM
He doesn't. I see this scene as fulfilling his own need to believe in himself. I equate it a bit to the Aes Sedai testing...the ability to perform intricate weaves without thought, with huge distractions occurring around you, and not really knowing consciously WHY you need to make the weave. I always saw that as a key scene in his acceptance of what he can do as well as what he is capable of (in a nasty, ewwww kind of way)

One more step towards believing he can beat the DO. I woul have to go back and look, but when does his thinking turn from "facing the DO" to "defeating the DO"

Yeah, but the problem with that is that it's Lews Therin doing all the weaving. Now this is tricky because there's still no consensus on just what Lews Therin was but no matter how you look at it, this is what happened. The crazy part of Rand's brain dug up memories of how to blow up lots of shadowspawn with little difficulty and put those memories to good use.

Rand wasn't consciously doing anything. The girls may be in a dream state when they test for the Shawl but they are CHOOSING what to do. Rand, on the other hand was riding shotgun in his own body. So, your interpretation doesn't work and the scene becomes a big special effect bonanza.

Now, I get Zombie's point about how the real conflict was Rand losing control, I just don't think he needed to blow up hundreds of thousands of baddies just to prove that point.

Seeker
03-03-2012, 03:52 PM
Rand, for example, no longer fences with the Forsaken; his challenges (aside from fixing himself) have been (a) balefire Graendal,


Yes, but that was a major moment of character development. Up until that point, Rand really hadn't done anything unforgivable. Graendel's death was not structured to be an action scene so you shouldn't judge it by action scene standards. It's not supposed to make you excited (like when Kelsier fights a Steel Inquisitor), it's supposed to make you say "This is really happening. He's really that far gone."

So, the scene works.

and (b) slaughter half a million Trollocs singlehandedly at Maradon.

Yes, I agree. I rolled my eyes at that scene as well. But by this point the precedent had already been set.

suttree
03-03-2012, 09:04 PM
(b) slaughter half a million Trollocs singlehandedly at Maradon. Thats the kind of plot device which seems poor to me. I thought the scene at Algarin's Manor amply demonstrated that Rand has nothing to fear from any number of Shadowspawn short of the numbers that will be present at the Last Battle. It seemed silly to have Sanderson reinforce that at Maradon.


Actually per BS we know the numbers for the two were in the same range. He didn't kill anywhere near a half a million at Maradon.

Okay! Alright! So Wetlander and people.
LOIALSON
Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?
BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple (which is not actually called that in the books)—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different.

& in ToM


Al'Thor lowered his hand. The field before him was piled with carcasses atop carcasses. [B]Tens of thousands of dead Trollocs smoldering. Directly before al'Thor, a pile a hundred paces wide formed a ridge five feet tall, a mound of dead that had nearly reached him.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Now this is tricky because there's still no consensus on just what Lews Therin was


:rolleyes: Major Eyeroll. Lololol. :D:o:o:o

tworiverswoman
03-03-2012, 10:58 PM
Plot Armor = slightly annoying. I HATE when a major character dies in a book I'm reading. I've never forgiven Anne McCaffery, for one. But I agree that they seem to be more or less immune to serious risk. And yeah, it all gets conveniently chalked off to tav'eren. In my personal opinion, RJ kind of shot himself in the foot with that concept - it's original function was an almost random side-effect of the tav'eren's presence in an area. It's grown into this unwieldy ham-fisted "positive feedback" device that's getting a little out of hand.

As for the fight at Algarin's Manor -- I've discussed this with Seeker many times. I find it LUDICROUS that so few people, channelers or not, could have stood off TWO THOUSAND TIMES THEIR NUMBER with only the loss of nineteen non-channeling Saldaean soldiers. Sheer numbers should have been able to overwhelm them, even if they'd only been ARMY ANTS. Or bumblebees. Power is all well and good - but it takes a finite time to weave, no matter how short, and the trollocs didn't have all that far to run from the woods to the house. Try to have it run like a movie in your head. The only way to make it work is like this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFufoOgCMW8&feature=related) here.

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2012, 04:24 AM
Actually, neither of these was the first time that Rand demonstrated an ability to exterminate* an inordinate number of Trollocs:
Suddenly he stopped, surrounded by the dead, in a wide hallway. He had to do something – something more. The Power slid along his bones, pure essence of fire. Something more. The Power froze his marrow. Something to kill them all; all of them at once. The taint on saidin rolled over him, a mountain of rotting filth threatening to bury his soul. Raising Callandor, he drew on the Source, drew on it till it seemed he must scream screams of frozen flame. He had to kill them all.
Just beneath the ceiling, right above his head, air slowly began to revolve, spinning faster, milling in streaks of red and black and silver. It roiled and collapsed inward, boiling harder, whining as it whirled and grew smaller still.
Sweat rolled down Rand's face as he stared up at it. He had no idea what it was, only that racing flows he could not begin to count connected him to the mass. It had mass; a weight growing greater while the thing fell inward on itself. Callandor flared brighter and brighter, too brilliant to look at; he closed his eyes, and the light seemed to burn, through his eyelids. The Power raced through him, a raging torrent that threatened to carry all that was him into the spinning. He had to let go. He had to. He forced his eyes open, and it was like looking at all the thunderstorms in the world compressed to the size of a Trolloc's head. He had to... had to... had to...
...
Rand had not a clue to what he had made, or how it worked. He could only stand there, quivering with the Power that filled him with the need to use it. Even if it destroyed him. He could feel Trollocs and Myrddraal dying, feel the lightnings strike and kill. He could kill them everywhere, everywhere in the world. He knew it. With Callandor he could do anything. And he knew trying would kill him just as surely.
And, as I notice once again, in this case too he risked killing himself too soon if he focused on the wrong target.

* Is Rand the Dalek Reborn?

Lupusdeusest
03-04-2012, 05:54 AM
Actually, neither of these was the first time that Rand demonstrated an ability to exterminate* an inordinate number of Trollocs:

And, as I notice once again, in this case too he risked killing himself too soon if he focused on the wrong target.

* Is Rand the Dalek Reborn?

He'd be more Davros than mere cannonfodder frontline Dalek, I think. Special Weapons Dalek?

Zombie Sammael
03-04-2012, 05:56 AM
He'd be more Davros than mere cannonfodder frontline Dalek, I think. Special Weapons Dalek?

Dalek Caan?

Lupusdeusest
03-04-2012, 06:32 AM
Dalek Caan?

I think Caan has more brains.

Up until recently, I had him as Sharaz Jek.

final death
03-04-2012, 08:02 PM
I really do like the books and while reading it makes sense most of the time. Rarely does it stretch my suspension of disbelief while reading. The problem is going back and thinking about it make me realize that way more characters should have died. By the way Veins of Gold is the perfect spot for a AU bad ending. I also understand that killing main characters off usually doesn't work well. Not to mention how the final out come is dependent on at least Rand, Mat, and Perrin living. Yet for the love of the LIGHT why couldn't someone die. So to clarify within the story it makes a good amount of sense. Also from the perspective of a story teller it makes sense. Alas it only bugs me when i look at from a realism perspective. In a setting like the wheel of time people would die often. Also i find it funny how a thread about Plot Armor to the nature of the wheel to comparing Rand to a Dalek.

Seeker
03-04-2012, 08:29 PM
I agree. Someone should have died. As much as I love Moiraine, I used to wish that she would stay "dead" simply because she was someone we loved.

Elayne's attitude to life seems to be "my, this chopping block fits my neck perfectly. I could just lie here all day." She probably should have died.

77jester
03-04-2012, 11:09 PM
As for the fight at Algarin's Manor -- I've discussed this with Seeker many times. I find it LUDICROUS that so few people, channelers or not, could have stood off TWO THOUSAND TIMES THEIR NUMBER with only the loss of nineteen non-channeling Saldaean soldiers. Sheer numbers should have been able to overwhelm them, even if they'd only been ARMY ANTS. Or bumblebees. Power is all well and good - but it takes a finite time to weave, no matter how short, and the trollocs didn't have all that far to run from the woods to the house. Try to have it run like a movie in your head. The only way to make it work is like this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFufoOgCMW8&feature=related) here.

I disagree with this thought simply on what the trollocs would have had to wade through. Sure the initial charge could have been overwhelming, but as soon as the front line was decimated by the Deathgates, fire blossoms, and fire arrows, the growing pile of random body parts would easily slow the onslaught to a trickle. Making the slaughter just a matter of endurance. What I find almost unbelievable is that the trollocs would just keep running into the carnage after just a few waves of instant death. Mydraal can't be more scary than that. To me this was just a repeat of Dumai's Wells, but against Shadowspawn.

What I really dislike about Death in this series is the countless killing off a character in lame ways because he is no longer necessary to the plot, or has become stale and boring. ie: Aram, Bors/Carridan, Asmodean, The prophet Masema, Noal. So much more could have come from Aram. And Asmodean could have been a nice repentant Darkfriend atoning for his sins for at least a short while not necessarily the rest of the story. The only example of a darkfriend repenting is Ingtar and he dies almost immediately afterwards.

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2012, 04:14 AM
The only example of a darkfriend repenting is Ingtar and he dies almost immediately afterwards.
And Verin. Who, admittedly, dies almost immediately afterwards.

And there's Galina, though she is a bit fickle about it all.

Daekyras
03-05-2012, 05:06 AM
If we wrote off every character who bored us at some point...we would be down to Bashere, Tovere, Aviendha and Cadsuane.

Bashere? Meh.
Aviendha? Meh.
Cadsuane? Meh.

So basically, I would be reading about tovere!

77jester
03-06-2012, 10:55 PM
And Verin. Who, admittedly, dies almost immediately afterwards.

And there's Galina, though she is a bit fickle about it all.

They don't quite fit the point either. Galina doesn't repent, she gives up.
Verin was forced into choosing to study the black ajah or die. Hardly a willing supporter of the shadow. Not exactly a repentant darkfriend.

Seth Baker
03-06-2012, 11:18 PM
It's interesting seeing the various people that nobody ever found boring.

I was never really bored by Mat, Egwene, Aviendha, Logain, Moiraine, Verin or Tovere.

Lost One
12-18-2012, 12:23 PM
I know what you mean. While I would not say that the heroes have not been in dangerous, life threatening spots, for example, Mat was NOT having a good time at Carhein.

I think that there is another reason as well. Most multi-book stories are still kept ususally to three or four books, so in the early books we had a greater impression of imminent danger, and the Characters were still reletively inexperienced so a single fist of trollocs are huge odds, especailly if you have no reinforcements. By books five and six, we see that this was going to be a long epic, so it becomes less of will the character survive to how will the character accomplish his goal in the end, especially with all of the obsticles thrown in his was, and for me, it became almost what will happen next, and how will x issue be resolved.

Some of my biggest questions have not been about Rand, or at least totally. I wonder if Rand and Galad will face each other as half-brothers. Galad's skill as a swordsman was so hyped, I wonder who me will face off with at TG. Butagain, he is a General now, and a general who trades his Baton for a sword becomes just another soldier.

The journey is not just about the destination, it is also about the trip.

Great Lord of the Dark
12-18-2012, 07:22 PM
The two best ideas RJ had to rig the plot was introducing the concepts of ta'veren and ter'angreal.

By explaining ta'veren, he had a way to include implausible events and explain them away satisfactorily. By making Mat even more implausibly ta'veren with ridiculous good luck, portrayed with a wink and nudge because he knows it's ridculous, the other ta'veren effects seem downright reasonable in comparison.

However, I suspect that we've been accustomed to the Pattern and ta'veren pulling our heroes out of danger intentionally. In the Last Battle, Min's admonition will come true and we'll learn that ta'veren can't correct enough, especially when the Pattern is rent by balefire. The advantage we've become used to will be suddenly lost, and that plot armor will be shed.

RJ wrote for the long term, parsimoniously advancing the plot. If he intended to pull the rug out from under us, it would be characteristic of him to wait until the last possible moment to do so. Because the prophecies demand the Last Battle, removing the plot armor may not have been as effective any earlier in the story.

Ter'angreal were the other brilliant invention. Reread the chapter in The Dragon Reborn when he introduces them. Verin explains in detail about angreal, sa'angreal, and other highly educated uses of the One Power. Then she casually metions that ter'angreal are magic black boxes that can do anything, letting the reader assign her knowledge to something that is never really explained. Later, when a wild array of ter'angreal are introduced, they piggyback on the perceived insight that the reader thinks they received. Bloody brilliant.

Algarin's manor served many purposes, but most of all it was to establish that everything we had seen so far was small in comparison to what is to come. It had to be easy because later we won't believe the heroes have a chance of success unless we have context for a handful of channelers standing against tens of thousands of opponents.


Tam, nice to see you again!

fdsaf3
12-20-2012, 11:44 AM
Actually, neither of these was the first time that Rand demonstrated an ability to exterminate* an inordinate number of Trollocs:

And, as I notice once again, in this case too he risked killing himself too soon if he focused on the wrong target.

* Is Rand the Dalek Reborn?

Not to mention the thousands of trollocs he killed in Eye of the World when he was totally untrained.

klye
12-28-2012, 08:58 AM
That's a nice way to look at the Wheel and Threads.

We see some of that with the blinding of the Dragon, the purposeless hunts pushing back Perrin's realization of his Talents, Fain's influence on Egwene, and the obvious influence on the Dark One on Mat...ok, that's just plain immaturity (which in and of itself is a nice play on the traditional devil made me do it mentality).


Whats the darks one influence on matt? Where did egwene become effected by fain? I seem to remember fain meeting egwene... but I dont recall him caring at all about her...

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2012, 09:05 AM
Whats the darks one influence on matt?
Good question. RJ has said that Mat having "the DO's own luck" has more truth to it than Mat would like, but that doesn't really tell us what the relationship is. It doesn't even tell us whether or not the DO approves of Mat using his luck.

Where did egwene become effected by fain? I seem to remember fain meeting egwene... but I dont recall him caring at all about her...
Oh, they're just casual acquaintances, nothing more serious than that. She did visit him quite a few times while he was busy corrupting jailers in Fal Dara, though.

Lost One
12-28-2012, 03:56 PM
Point one.. I agree that the whole “angreal” family concept was a brilliant way to introduce and explain ways that various characters could do things without actually having to explain it. After all, we all KNOW that ter’angeal do specific things with the OP, and therefore take it for granted. So now, if something not quite covered pops up.. voila.. “Ima Channaler” presents a ter’angreal that fits the bill. Need more of the OP? “Ima Channaler” shows up with a Angreal/ Sa’angreal and all of a sudden the character is channeling like they just drank a combo of Red Bull, a Monster (another stupid energy drink that we goofey American’s use), a 5-hour energy shot, six shots of espresso, and three hits of Meth.

Point two: Introducing the Taveren concept was another great way to explain how circumstances that should have been overwhelming could fall in line for our heros. As the story got longer and longer, we became more used to it. I do believe, as it is mentioned above, that it is not infallible and that there will be some tragic happenings.

Point three Dark One’s Own Luck? The DO letting Mat use his luck, or Mat doing it inadvertently??? I do not think so.. at least the way that yall are suggesting. This is making it sound like the DO has a pool of luck, much like the TP and Rand, and that Matt is tied into it, with or without the DO’s consent. While Mat is incredibly lucky beyond belief, I believe that this is more of the Taveren twisty twisting than actually power that Mat is accessing. Afterall, Rand’s Taveren-ness affects random chance as well, but in a more balanced way, and if affects others rather than himself… such as baskets of bread being spilt and landing upright, in a circle.
While Egwene did dream of Mat dicing with the DO, I think that was more specific to that plot line of his “wager” with Gabril, than Mat tapping into the DO.
As far as the term, “the DO’s own luck”.. it is just a saying as part of the overall story background, just like other “today” sayings that have been slightly altered to fit into and give reference to something that the reader would recognize.. ie, rain while the sun is shining “the Devil beating his wife = the DO beating Semirhage”

Lost One
12-28-2012, 04:26 PM
I am not sure if this should be continued here, or on its own thread, but I am lazy so here it is.

Point four: (LOL, finally). This was something that had been bothering me for the past.. oh five books or so. I had always seen the Last Battle as more of a philosophic term to describe the final war between the DO and the forces of Light that would result in the DO’s Prison being resealed so that people could forget about him as well as the end of the 3rd Age. Part of this is my own military experience and knowing that a conflict is never settled with just one battle. I mean the War of the Power that ended the AOL, lasted 10+ years. The Trolloc Wars lasted X-years as well. So unless every Trolloc, Fade, Darkhound, Dragkar, and other Shadowspawned creation as well as human Darkfriend Armies from all over the world, show up at once with every person on the side of the Light showing up at the same place; this war will be going on for some time, even if Rand and company defeat the Chosen, major dreadlords from amongst the B/Ajah and B/Ashamen, and re-seal the prison.

I have been waiting for major Light/Shadow battles, such as one mentioned in historical context such as the fall of Manetheran, or other events done by the Chosen in the past.. ie feed a city to trollocs. But now, we have one book left.. JUST ONE.. for all of this to happen. Granted, we have had one large scale incursion (Algarin’s Manor) and the beginning of the invasion on multi-fronts (Caemlyn & the Borderlands), in the past 14 books (including A New Spring). Eight thousand, three hundred and ninety-nine pages… and we are only now getting to major conflicts.

I do not think that I am the only fan that is interested in how the world and nations will be reshaped. Which nations will fall? Which will rise? What will be the aftermath? Who will survive and what roles will they have in the world after the 2nd breaking? Even if the LB is finished, or at least Rand’s part and the prison is repaired (though how will this be confirmed, and how long will it take to confirm it) 2/3 of the way through.. it will still take at least 1/3 of the book to tie up loose ends in even a most vague of an acceptable manner.. or else we will all be left scratching our heads saying, “that’s it”. .. Kind of like the first time a person has sex.. all the build up.. the anticipation, ten minutes or so of fumbling, then “uh.. what now?” (yeah.. go ahead and pretend it was not like that if you want to..lol).

I will admit I have a lot of expectations for AMoL. There are separate plots that have to come together, for example, Rand and Galad. We have a LB with three sides: Good Guys, Shadow Friends and creatures, and PF’s side, along with intro-ing new character types with the Red Aiel (personally, not a fan of. It should have been done earlier or not at all). With all respect to RJ and BS, I honestly do not know if they can be met.

Do the rest of you have the same concerns?