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NaeffOfDreams
02-28-2012, 05:51 PM
I don't think we're done with Jain Farstrider yet. Too much groundwork has been laid with him, dating back to EotW, that has yet to come to fruition. Ishamael mentions making him into an unwitting tool on several occasions. Then there's the POV we get from him in aCoS trying to remember something before it's too late. These two things are both connected and important to the Last Battle. And before you ask, I don't know what he's trying to remember, but I know it's important. The BLANK in the Blight perhaps? Or something we haven't even thought of?

But since Jain's death, those memories are lost forever. Or are they? He died in the Tower of Ghenjei, at the hands of the 'Finns, the same people who put memories in Mat's head. All those memories come from a certain character archetype that Jain actually falls handily into. Mat already has memories of dying, so we know that time doesn't matter to the 'Finns as long as they get a sniff of the person at some point. This leads me to believe it is very possible that Mat is now in possession of Jain's memories. Tear it apart, folks!

Tomp
02-28-2012, 06:24 PM
I think he may come back as a hero of the horn, but now in his prime and not an old man.

professorskar
02-28-2012, 10:31 PM
It's all dependent on if Mat CAN get new memories (besides the ones he makes for himself, of course). I always viewed what the Finns did to him as giving him a finite amount of memories, I never considered that he'd be getting more into his head after having met with them.

NaeffOfDreams
02-29-2012, 08:52 AM
He may have had them all along and they just haven't jogged yet. If the Finns can use memories from after they've sniffed someone, maybe they can plant them before they've sniffed someone as well.

WinespringBrother
02-29-2012, 09:09 AM
For whatever reason, all of the memories that Mat acquired were of the middle ages of the 3rd Age - IIRC from the time span of 500 years before the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing's time. Jain Farstrider's life does not fall within these time parameters. Since we know that there were visitors to Finnland up until 700 NE, it seems that the time frame of the memories that Mat acquired was arbitrary and not due to some limitation of obtainable memories on the part of the Finns. So there is no reason to presume that Jain's memories would spontaneously be obtained by Mat, at least by the means he acquired them previously.

I do agree that Jain has not been given full closure, however. Perhaps Mat will finally get around to reading his biography and gain some enlightenment from Jain's travels in a less invasive manner. :eek:

NaeffOfDreams
02-29-2012, 10:02 AM
In the tradition of Jordan's great POVs showing the ta'veren being awesome from an outside character's perspective, I have this vision in my head of Mat actually seeing himself through Jain's eyes. It would make a sweet reveal. I'm going to hold it in the realm of possibility until January 8th, at any rate.

GonzoTheGreat
02-29-2012, 10:21 AM
Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.

I'm doubtful of this theory, but your comment does make me wonder: no-one ever asks who Moridin was before he was Moridin. Hint: the answer's not Ishamael.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm doubtful of this theory, but your comment does make me wonder: no-one ever asks who Moridin was before he was Moridin. Hint: the answer's not Ishamael.

Referring to being transmigrated several times over the course of the series?

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 01:41 PM
Referring to being transmigrated several times over the course of the series?

Referring to the identity of the body rather than the soul, to put it as plainly as possible.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 01:48 PM
Referring to the identity of the body rather than the soul, to put it as plainly as possible.

Yeah, that's what I meant, in a roundabout fashion. It's all "Ishy" in there, but I've gotten the impression that the body's original identities aren't all that important. Maybe they're former darkfriends, permanently marked so that others can "dance in their skins" or maybe it's just another "forger"? Dunno. Don't really have a theory on it, though I've leaned towards the latter.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 01:54 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant, in a roundabout fashion. It's all "Ishy" in there, but I've gotten the impression that the body's original identities aren't all that important. Maybe they're former darkfriends, permanently marked so that others can "dance in their skins" or maybe it's just another "forger"? Dunno. Don't really have a theory on it, though I've leaned towards the latter.

It's the explanation that IMO works best for the various Taimoridin theories. It's clear that the identities of Aran'gar and Osan'gar were unimportant, but that could be misdirecting us away from significance to Moridin or Cyndane.

My old theory before TOM was that Lanfear and Moiraine had swapped bodies.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 02:48 PM
It's the explanation that IMO works best for the various Taimoridin theories. It's clear that the identities of Aran'gar and Osan'gar were unimportant, but that could be misdirecting us away from significance to Moridin or Cyndane.

My old theory before TOM was that Lanfear and Moiraine had swapped bodies.

Yea, I'd heard that one, though I never really got into it because RJ had given what I thought was a solid description of someone entirely different than Moiraine.

As far as significance goes, my personal favorite (left-field, due to no real supporting text) loony theory is that Rand and Ishamael are both the Dragon, with Ishy being a Dragon that gave up his soul to become the Champion of the DO in an age or world so far gone that the memory is lost.

More keen to me, though, is the idea that there is nothing that can be done with the TP that cannot be done with the OP, like darkness and light, saidar and saidin. This means that transmigration would be possible for any powerful channeler, though it lends itself unpleasantly to the bodyswap theory, which I don't like at all.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 03:12 PM
Yea, I'd heard that one, though I never really got into it because RJ had given what I thought was a solid description of someone entirely different than Moiraine.

As far as significance goes, my personal favorite (left-field, due to no real supporting text) loony theory is that Rand and Ishamael are both the Dragon, with Ishy being a Dragon that gave up his soul to become the Champion of the DO in an age or world so far gone that the memory is lost.

More keen to me, though, is the idea that there is nothing that can be done with the TP that cannot be done with the OP, like darkness and light, saidar and saidin. This means that transmigration would be possible for any powerful channeler, though it lends itself unpleasantly to the bodyswap theory, which I don't like at all.

It also lends itself to the TAR-rip theory. After all, what is a Hero Of The Horn but a soul pledged to the Light, just as a Forsaken is a soul pledged to the Shadow?

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 03:34 PM
It also lends itself to the TAR-rip theory. After all, what is a Hero Of The Horn but a soul pledged to the Light, just as a Forsaken is a soul pledged to the Shadow?

I'm not sure I'd go in for that one... other than the monstrosity that the CoTL became, there's not really any true lightfriends, people who pledge their souls to the light.

Might be that the act of heroism that binds them to the Horn is somehow akin to that, however.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm not sure I'd go in for that one... other than the monstrosity that the CoTL became, there's not really any true lightfriends, people who pledge their souls to the light.

Might be that the act of heroism that binds them to the Horn is somehow akin to that, however.

That's basically what I meant. A HOTH is the equivalent of a Chosen.

Tomp
02-29-2012, 04:17 PM
Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.

I mat be wrong but:

Didn't Lanfear die after her power was partially "consumed", resurrected by DO, placed in new body, handed to Mor on a "leach".

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 04:51 PM
I mat be wrong but:

Didn't Lanfear die after her power was partially "consumed", resurrected by DO, placed in new body, handed to Mor on a "leach".

Moiraine says someone came to get her. We don't know if she was alive or dead, or who it was that came (most people think Moridin, but there's an outside chance it was Slayer, and an outsidererer chance it was someone else entirely).

Tomp
02-29-2012, 06:51 PM
Moiraine says someone came to get her. We don't know if she was alive or dead, or who it was that came (most people think Moridin, but there's an outside chance it was Slayer, and an outsidererer chance it was someone else entirely).

From Wot encyclopedia:
Moiraine tells some of her story. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn feed on emotion like a drug. She can still channel but she is now very weak in the One Power from their draining. They told her they killed Lanfear that way.2 A man came one time, but said she was not the one he wanted.3

Notes
2- Interesting. Lanfear apparently died, as she got a new body, but Cyndane is only slightly weakened in the One Power. Did the Aelfinn and Eelfinn lie to Moiraine or was most of Lanfear's strength restored when she became Cyndane?
3- So who was he, Moridin or someone else? He did not want Moiraine. Was he looking for Lanfear? In any case it seems most likely that he was responsible for destroying the other twisted red doorway. (ToM,Ch55)

When I read the book I always thought the snakes & foxes were to greedy and overfed on Lanfear's ability, killing her in the process.

But I may be wrong.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 07:04 PM
When I read the book I always thought the snakes & foxes were to greedy and overfed on Lanfear's ability, killing her in the process.

But I may be wrong.

That was my initial impression (pre_ToM) as well, that Lanfear had died by some fault of the Finns, but with the revelation of the unknown seeker and the fact that the Finns like to drain their victims, that seems far less likely.

I'm guessing that once Moridin or whomever figured out that she was trapped in Finnland, she was retrieved the only way they were able. RIP Lanfear.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 07:16 PM
From Wot encyclopedia:
Moiraine tells some of her story. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn feed on emotion like a drug. She can still channel but she is now very weak in the One Power from their draining. They told her they killed Lanfear that way.2 A man came one time, but said she was not the one he wanted.3

Notes
2- Interesting. Lanfear apparently died, as she got a new body, but Cyndane is only slightly weakened in the One Power. Did the Aelfinn and Eelfinn lie to Moiraine or was most of Lanfear's strength restored when she became Cyndane?
3- So who was he, Moridin or someone else? He did not want Moiraine. Was he looking for Lanfear? In any case it seems most likely that he was responsible for destroying the other twisted red doorway. (ToM,Ch55)

When I read the book I always thought the snakes & foxes were to greedy and overfed on Lanfear's ability, killing her in the process.

But I may be wrong.

They said they killed her by draining her too quickly. I'd assume that means that they took too much too soon rather than that they drained her dry right away. The process is obviously dangerous. Either that, or her retained strength could be the result of a wish.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 07:19 PM
They said they killed her by draining her too quickly. I'd assume that means that they took too much too soon rather than that they drained her dry right away. The process is obviously dangerous. Either that, or her retained strength could be the result of a wish.

It might also be that she had no idea how to get out (because really, Finns are kids stories), and her unknown seeker told her the only way out was to ask for death.

Which isn't something Finns have any problem with dealing out. They took their price in her power.

Zombie Sammael
02-29-2012, 07:21 PM
It might also be that she had no idea how to get out (because really, Finns are kids stories), and her unknown seeker told her the only way out was to ask for death.

Which isn't something Finns have any problem with dealing out. They took their price in her power.

If the unknown seeker got in, then why would he be unable to get both himself and her out?

Tomp
02-29-2012, 07:31 PM
They said they killed her by draining her too quickly. I'd assume that means that they took too much too soon rather than that they drained her dry right away. The process is obviously dangerous. Either that, or her retained strength could be the result of a wish.

My take on it is this.
The S&F started sucking Lanfear (mind out of gutter, please) to quickly so that the "waterhose" burst and she died after they had just gotten a small amount of her ability from her. The S&F got rid of the body somehow.

Then when it was time for Moiraine to be sucked (again, stop!) they took it very slowly so that they wouldn't repeat their mistake and loose their price.

"The man" probably tried to rescue Lanfear (could be Moridin or someone else) but didn't find her alive.

Meanwhile DO captures Lanfear's soul and places it in a new body. Cyndane is not as strong because she has lost some of her ability to channel before the "hose" broke.

DO doesn't trust her and gives her to Moridin (his most loyal henchman) via mindtrap.

eht slat meit
02-29-2012, 07:35 PM
If the unknown seeker got in, then why would he be unable to get both himself and her out?

Because the seeker is a Forsaken or Slayer. Why on earth would they do anything requiring actual sacrifice for a Last Chance piece of trash like Lanfear?

The price Finns demand is sacrifice, after all. The DO might demand it, but I can't see the DO doing that on behalf of a servant like Lanfear.

professorskar
02-29-2012, 08:24 PM
My own loony theory about Jain is that he actually took very short strides.

Zombie Sammael
03-01-2012, 04:45 AM
My take on it is this.
The S&F started sucking Lanfear (mind out of gutter, please) to quickly so that the "waterhose" burst and she died after they had just gotten a small amount of her ability from her. The S&F got rid of the body somehow.

Then when it was time for Moiraine to be sucked (again, stop!) they took it very slowly so that they wouldn't repeat their mistake and loose their price.

"The man" probably tried to rescue Lanfear (could be Moridin or someone else) but didn't find her alive.

Meanwhile DO captures Lanfear's soul and places it in a new body. Cyndane is not as strong because she has lost some of her ability to channel before the "hose" broke.

DO doesn't trust her and gives her to Moridin (his most loyal henchman) via mindtrap.

I seem to be making a habit in this thread of stating things in an incredibly concise way that isn't always the clearest. Will try to do better. Anyway, this is pretty much exactly what I was saying.

Because the seeker is a Forsaken or Slayer. Why on earth would they do anything requiring actual sacrifice for a Last Chance piece of trash like Lanfear?

The price Finns demand is sacrifice, after all. The DO might demand it, but I can't see the DO doing that on behalf of a servant like Lanfear.

The DO was satisfied enough with Lanfear that he resurrected her into a new body. Also, have you read the last chapter of TOM? It looks like one way or another, Lanfear/Cyndane is pretty significant to the Shadow's plans for Rand. That's why resurrect her, and that's why go to get her. It also might be the case that transmigrating her soul was impossible for whatever reason without the body.

eht slat meit
03-01-2012, 11:06 AM
The DO was satisfied enough with Lanfear that he resurrected her into a new body.

I'm not questioning why they would resurrect her. It's clear that however little worth she has to the Shadow, she still has some value as a pawn, hence the whole "oh please LTT, come saves me". Flagrant trap, and I hope that there's something more to it than that, because if Rand were to actually fall for it, no matter what their shared history, that would feel like a cheat.

What I am questioning is why Moridin or whoever went to get Lanfear would bother giving up anything for her. Why would the DO tell them to?

Sure, she's valuable, but they don't NEED to make that sacrifice. They could simply kill her, or levy the option to ask for death or be trapped forever, resulting in the same.

Making storybook exchanges with the Finns is a stupid idea, and Moridin/Slayer got to be smarter than that. Both men have already given their soul up to the Shadow, why would they trade anything for trash like Lanfear when it's so much more effective to use other means?

A slit throat, or suicide. Solved.

The problem, for the Shadow, as I see it is that while Lanfear was in Finnland, she was still alive. You can't transmigrate the living, and she was never going to die unless they chose to let her or killed her themselves.

Hence the Seeker Intervention.

Zombie Sammael
03-02-2012, 09:45 AM
I'm not questioning why they would resurrect her. It's clear that however little worth she has to the Shadow, she still has some value as a pawn, hence the whole "oh please LTT, come saves me". Flagrant trap, and I hope that there's something more to it than that, because if Rand were to actually fall for it, no matter what their shared history, that would feel like a cheat.

What I am questioning is why Moridin or whoever went to get Lanfear would bother giving up anything for her. Why would the DO tell them to?

Sure, she's valuable, but they don't NEED to make that sacrifice. They could simply kill her, or levy the option to ask for death or be trapped forever, resulting in the same.

Making storybook exchanges with the Finns is a stupid idea, and Moridin/Slayer got to be smarter than that. Both men have already given their soul up to the Shadow, why would they trade anything for trash like Lanfear when it's so much more effective to use other means?

A slit throat, or suicide. Solved.

The problem, for the Shadow, as I see it is that while Lanfear was in Finnland, she was still alive. You can't transmigrate the living, and she was never going to die unless they chose to let her or killed her themselves.

Hence the Seeker Intervention.

But Moridin (or whoever) still went into Finnland to get her. I mean, it's highly unlikely the Seeker has an ashanderei, so how was he going to get himself out without making some sort of deal with the Finns? Unless it was Slayer and he already has some connection with the Finns, which might be an argument for it being Slayer, but it's one with scant evidence. I think your reasoning is backwards. The Seeker obviously did go into Finnland, and he obviously did leave with Lanfear's corpse. Therefore, he must have made some sort of deal with the Finns (if only to get himself out), and there must be some sort of value to getting Lanfear out, or they wouldn't have done it.

The only other possibilities, as I see it, are that the Seeker was Slayer and Slayer has some connection to the TOG (as suggested during TSR, but scant evidence since); or that Moridin went in via the TOG, using the TOG and redstone doorways as a shortcut into the Stone of Tear storeroom, from which he stole numerous ter'angreal and laid traps for whoever came to remove Callandor, and getting Lanfear's corpse was just coincidental. Note that according to the second one, if you alter the facts so that he just took the opportunity whilst in the Stone, he would still need some motivation for getting Lanfear out.

Abbaaddon
03-02-2012, 10:20 AM
About the heroes of the Horn, I do not think they are pledged to the light as their action will depend on who blows the horn. Imagine that Fain would have blown it, Hawkwing and co would have been forced to fight oh the DO's side. Or maybe am I missing something ?

Zombie Sammael
03-02-2012, 10:27 AM
About the heroes of the Horn, I do not think they are pledged to the light as their action will depend on who blows the horn. Imagine that Fain would have blown it, Hawkwing and co would have been forced to fight oh the DO's side. Or maybe am I missing something ?

Yes, this:

Question: Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

ROBERT JORDAN
"Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."

There is a note to say that the word "rift" may be "schism" or "breach", but you get the idea. There are some additional qualifiers about whether or not if this was the case the DO should be trying to make it happen, but I think what's basically being expressed is that it's either impossible or a really, really bad idea.

eht slat meit
03-02-2012, 11:16 AM
But Moridin (or whoever) still went into Finnland to get her. I mean, it's highly unlikely the Seeker has an ashanderei, so how was he going to get himself out without making some sort of deal with the Finns?

I believe that what is implied by the books and that what you're missing here, is that the 'Finns and the Shadow already have something of an accord. Not an alliance, no, but a long-standing agreement, because they are kindred spirits of a kind, one representing the evil of men, the other the darkest side of the things he wishes for.

Think about it. If the Finns are absolutely sovereign in their own domain, proof against any assault by the Shadow, why is it that the questions one is allowed to ask of them prohibit any insight into the Shadow?

If they're terrified of the Shadow, why would they keep a Forsaken hostage at any point, when the cost is destruction?

No, I think there's a balance between the two, and that at some point long past (probably) Moridin arranged some sort of truce with them. Chances are he gave them something in return - maybe it was his own memories, the ones that enrage him so much for their loss.

This truce allows Moridin or his agents to transverse the Finnland plane freely and have the cause he Champions be proof against any recon missions by pesky little Dragons or their friends.

But it doesn't do a thing for Lanfear, because she's not his agent.

Which puts him in the position of having to go or send someone there to get her out. Since Finns are big on the wording of agreements, he has to be very, very careful about doing that.

Zombie Sammael
03-02-2012, 11:24 AM
I believe that what is implied by the books and that what you're missing here, is that the 'Finns and the Shadow already have something of an accord. Not an alliance, no, but a long-standing agreement, because they are kindred spirits of a kind, one representing the evil of men, the other the darkest side of the things he wishes for.

Think about it. If the Finns are absolutely sovereign in their own domain, proof against any assault by the Shadow, why is it that the questions one is allowed to ask of them prohibit any insight into the Shadow?

If they're terrified of the Shadow, why would they keep a Forsaken hostage at any point, when the cost is destruction?

No, I think there's a balance between the two, and that at some point long past (probably) Moridin arranged some sort of truce with them. Chances are he gave them something in return - maybe it was his own memories, the ones that enrage him so much for their loss.

This truce allows Moridin or his agents to transverse the Finnland plane freely and have the cause he Champions be proof against any recon missions by pesky little Dragons or their friends.

But it doesn't do a thing for Lanfear, because she's not his agent.

Which puts him in the position of having to go or send someone there to get her out. Since Finns are big on the wording of agreements, he has to be very, very careful about doing that.

If the Finns are such sticklers for the wording of agreements (and I agree that they are) then they are also vulnerable to being caught out in that manner. Moridin could legitimately argue that even if Lanfear wasn't his agent when she went in, now that he has been appointed Nae'blis, all of the Chosen now are.

More generally regarding an accord with the Shadow, bear in mind that parallel worlds are different from mirror worlds. While the DO being free in one mirror world would see him free in all, we simply don't know that the same holds true for parallel worlds. Why would the Finns make an accord with the Shadow?

eht slat meit
03-02-2012, 11:36 AM
If the Finns are such sticklers for the wording of agreements (and I agree that they are) then they are also vulnerable to being caught out in that manner. Moridin could legitimately argue that even if Lanfear wasn't his agent when she went in, now that he has been appointed Nae'blis, all of the Chosen now are.

Of course they're vulnerable to that wording, but you'll note that -that- is my wording, not Moridin's. There are any number of other wordings that could have been used. In fact, there doesn't even need to be an agreement for safe passage. Slayer does seem the most likely Seeker, since he seems able to enter and leave ToG at will, so the issue would be a simple one of an agreement that the Finns will answer no questions re: Shadow.

However, an ability to come and go freely, doesn't mean that Slayer can simply come and take something that belongs to the Finns. Lanfear didn't have passage, channeled in their domain, and destroyed one of their feeding points.

Why would the Finns make an accord with the Shadow?

Both parties have something the other wants. The Shadow wants the Finns to to shut the hell up about the Shadow, the Finns want the Shadow to go away and leave them alone. A war between the two, one that the Finns would probably lose, is a great incentive to agree to things like that.

Zombie Sammael
03-02-2012, 11:50 AM
Of course they're vulnerable to that wording, but you'll note that -that- is my wording, not Moridin's. There are any number of other wordings that could have been used. In fact, there doesn't even need to be an agreement for safe passage. Slayer does seem the most likely Seeker, since he seems able to enter and leave ToG at will, so the issue would be a simple one of an agreement that the Finns will answer no questions re: Shadow.

However, an ability to come and go freely, doesn't mean that Slayer can simply come and take something that belongs to the Finns. Lanfear didn't have passage, channeled in their domain, and destroyed one of their feeding points.



Both parties have something the other wants. The Shadow wants the Finns to to shut the hell up about the Shadow, the Finns want the Shadow to go away and leave them alone. A war between the two, one that the Finns would probably lose, is a great incentive to agree to things like that.

As much as I'd like the Seeker to be Slayer, since he's the one character I wish had been used more and that we knew more about, I don't think he is the most likely candidate. I think it's more likely to be Moridin, for the reasons I stated above regarding his entry into the Stone of Tear and acquisition of ter'angreal. That explanation simply fits in too well with, and explains, numerous other mysteries surrounding Moridin and the Finns.

Any accord with the Shadow is pure speculation. It could simply be that the effect of naming the Dark One is enhanced inside Finnland for some reason, e.g. he's aware of the risks to his plans posed by Finn answers and gifts and thus pays particular attention to any mention of himself and his side, not just his name, within Finnland. He might also have slightly more freedom to act within Finnland for some reason. Or Finnland might have its own Dark One trapped inside its pattern which causes the dire consequences. No-one ever said the *finn were responsible for the "dire consequences" in the first place.

IvySedai
03-02-2012, 09:47 PM
Hello, NaeffOfDreams

I love to check WOT sites and forums, though I am not one to write comments. But I was forced to create an account here on TL only so I could post this crazy theory. It just didnīt leave my head. At first I had written a long text where I explained my vision on how could Jain have been robbed of his memories, but site time expired and I lost what I wrote. Then I submitted a very short version of it on Predictions of TL under "Mat". It goes like this:

Prediction: (Average Rating: 0)

I predict that Mat will inherit all of Noal(Jain Farstrider) memories via Aelfinn/Eelfinn. They didn't kill him immediately, and got all of his memories and sensations before finishing the deed.

Predictor:
IvySedai
2011-04-18

Unfortunately someone posted, like, tons of predictions just after me and my prediction didnīt figure in the list long enough to be rated (just 10 or so predictions at a time for evaluation), so I donīt know what people thought of that.

I always had the impression that Jain Farstrider was more important than just a fighting companion for Mat to go into the Tower. He is mentioned several times from the very first chapters of TEOTW, and more so later. He seems too important only to be 'the guy in the red blouse' and be the one to die at the Tower, always knowing what no one else knew. WHat a waste!

But I had no clue to what Jain could know that would be important to Mat. Your recalling of Jain trying to remember something important may very well filled the blank. Good thinking! :D

I looked around to see if anyone had posted anything like it, but found nothing (sorry if missed someone). Since I had nothing real to argue about why I believed that, I only wrote on Predictions. I hope it comes true, it would be a great example of how the pattern works. Jain had to go in adventures so he would learn lots, than join a Taveren and finally die in a place where he could transfer his knowledge to said Taīveren, crucial knowledge, to be used in the final battle against the dark one! One can dream ;)

Aulis Vaara
03-04-2012, 02:24 AM
That's basically what I meant. A HOTH is the equivalent of a Chosen.

Given how we've gotten to know Birgitte, we already know that Heroes Of The Horn are not paragons of virtue at all.

No, if anyone is pledged to the light it's the Tuatha'an with their Way Of The Leaf. The Heroes belong to the pattern and the pattern is neither good nor evil, it just is.


As for Jain Farstrider, I think his last words are going to be important in some way (probably to either Lan or Slayer). No-one is going to get his memories or something like that, however.

Zombie Sammael
03-04-2012, 05:45 AM
Given how we've gotten to know Birgitte, we already know that Heroes Of The Horn are not paragons of virtue at all.

No, if anyone is pledged to the light it's the Tuatha'an with their Way Of The Leaf. The Heroes belong to the pattern and the pattern is neither good nor evil, it just is.


As for Jain Farstrider, I think his last words are going to be important in some way (probably to either Lan or Slayer). No-one is going to get his memories or something like that, however.

Champion of the Light =/= paragon of virtue.

I'm not suggesting there's a direct correlation, that the HOTHs visit the Creator upon his throne in Tel'aran'rhiod and pledge their souls to him, and are rewarded with being tied to the Horn. I'm merely suggesting that where there is darkness, there is light; the HOTHs are the Light's version of Chosen. Each of them has, indeed, been "chosen" after all. The Dark One uses the Forsaken to fight his wars when the time comes; the Wheel spins out the HOTHs when it needs them to correct the direction of the pattern. Ta'veren serve a similar role - but note that while we have seen HOTHs who are not ta'veren, we have never seen a ta'veren who isn't a HOTH.

Grig
03-06-2012, 02:43 PM
but note that while we have seen HOTHs who are not ta'veren, we have never seen a ta'veren who isn't a HOTH.

Also note that there is a well-known talent to see ta'veren. HOTH are uncommon, and there are only something around a hundred of them total. It seems unlikely that the talent is common enough to be well-known, if the only way to know you have it is to see a spun-out Hero of the Horn in person. We also have no reason to assume that Mat and Perrin are Heroes; only Rand was called out at Falme, which would be an odd omission in the atmosphere of that meeting (written very much as a gathering of old friends).

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-06-2012, 02:55 PM
to help back up that statement, or further the debate---from the amazing interview database:

Interview: Nov 13th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Yellowbeard (Paraphrased)
Yellowbeard
I did get to ask a question Terez put me up to.
Brandon Sanderson
His answer was no, Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren at all in their lifetimes when spun out. Sometimes, they even live normal lives and don't do anything extraordinary, like they sometimes spend their lives as farmers, etc.



AND

Interview: Nov 14th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Matoyak (Paraphrased)
Matoyak
Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?
Brandon Sanderson
Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

Zombie Sammael
03-06-2012, 03:02 PM
Also note that there is a well-known talent to see ta'veren. HOTH are uncommon, and there are only something around a hundred of them total. It seems unlikely that the talent is common enough to be well-known, if the only way to know you have it is to see a spun-out Hero of the Horn in person. We also have no reason to assume that Mat and Perrin are Heroes; only Rand was called out at Falme, which would be an odd omission in the atmosphere of that meeting (written very much as a gathering of old friends).

Thematically, it would be very surprising indeed if Mat at least wasn't a HOTH, and probably Perrin too, given all of the themes and connections that have sprung up around them. Those themes and character motifs make it very unlikely, IMO, that this is the first time they have ever been used as ta'veren. The fact that we have stories of heroes like Mat and Perrin in our age (which is part of the cycle, according to RJ) strongly suggests that they are part of a repeating pattern, i.e. HOTHs. There may well be other good reasons why Artur Hawkwing didn't call them out - the fact that they didn't know they were HOTHs, unlike Rand, might well have broken "the precepts" given what we know of them, or Rand may simply be way, way more important. I stand by my statement that we haven't seen a ta'veren that isn't a HOTH, but I'd add the qualifier "probably", to be fair.

Landro
03-07-2012, 01:47 AM
The Finns may have told Moiraine they killed Lanfear but do we have any reason to trust their word? Lying to Moiraine about this would likely have despaired her and given the Finns more emotions to feed off.

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2012, 04:17 AM
The Finns may have told Moiraine they killed Lanfear but do we have any reason to trust their word? Lying to Moiraine about this would likely have despaired her and given the Finns more emotions to feed off.
They knew that she might get out. They also know very well that a big part of their bargaining power comes from the fact that they are trustworthy, in a way. If they say something, you can trust it. Of course, they're even better than AS at not letting people know what it means until it is too late, but that is the problem of the ones listening to them.
When they told Mat he would marry the DotNM, he didn't know who that was. He didn't know how the marriage would take place. But it was the truth.

So I would say that they can indeed be believed. What else there is that would be relevant which they don't tell (yet) is of course unclear.

Landro
03-07-2012, 08:30 AM
They knew that she might get out. They also know very well that a big part of their bargaining power comes from the fact that they are trustworthy, in a way. If they say something, you can trust it. Of course, they're even better than AS at not letting people know what it means until it is too late, but that is the problem of the ones listening to them.
When they told Mat he would marry the DotNM, he didn't know who that was. He didn't know how the marriage would take place. But it was the truth.

So I would say that they can indeed be believed. What else there is that would be relevant which they don't tell (yet) is of course unclear.

When Moiraine and later Mat came for the second time, neither was locked into the treaties. This makes a lot of difference

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2012, 09:01 AM
When Moiraine and later Mat came for the second time, neither was locked into the treaties. This makes a lot of difference
Yes and no. As far as we know, they still did not tell any lies, did they?

That kind of reputation is easy to blow, but very useful if you don't blow it.

NaeffOfDreams
03-07-2012, 11:14 AM
@Ivy Sedai, Thanks for the support here. The trouble with a theory like this is that there is so little evidence for or against to really solicit much discussion (I forgive you, thread-jackers). "Possible but unlikely" has cropped up in WoT before.

From a narrative standpoint, to me at least, Jain seems like a cheap cameo at this point. Noal could have been anybody or nobody. Giving him this epic backstory cheapens what he does in the present-day of the story, unless that backstory is necessary to the resolution. This is the major reason why I don't think we're done with Jain yet. That's my 2 copper pennies anyhow.

Grig
03-07-2012, 11:20 AM
they are part of a repeating pattern, i.e. HOTHs

I disagree with your id est applying to "part of a repeating pattern". Humankind's breaking of the Dark One's prison due to curiousity or lust for power is part of a repeating Pattern (Pandora's Box) known to us thematically; are Mierin and Beidomon Heroes of the Horn?

The "precepts" limit Hero behavior between lives in TAR. They were not in TAR. Also, at that point Rand still wasn't sure about the whole Dragon thing. All he knew is that he could channel, and some Aes Sedai wanted him to believe he was LTT reborn. He actually argues with a disembodied Artur Hawkwing about it. If there are precepts about telling Heroes they are Heroes if they don't already know it, he was breaking them just as much by calling Rand Lews Therin as he would by identifying Mat and Perrin as such.

I stand by my statement that we haven't seen a ta'veren that isn't a HOTH, but I'd add the qualifier "probably", to be fair.

And my statement in response would be that we have no way to know if your statement is true or not. Who was the ta'veren that Siuan saw to discover that she had the Talent? What reason do we have to believe that said person was a Hero of the Horn? What reason do we have to believe that Perrin and Mat are Heroes, especially given that the HotH didn't mention it at Falme (unless Trumpeter and Bannerman are their super secret HotH codenames).

@SBC, you probably noticed this (and you're offering me support) but those statements state that Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren, not that ta'veren are not always Heroes of the Horn. Just wanted to keep the (completely abstract and theoretical) discussion grounded =P.

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 12:06 PM
I disagree with your id est applying to "part of a repeating pattern". Humankind's breaking of the Dark One's prison due to curiousity or lust for power is part of a repeating Pattern (Pandora's Box) known to us thematically; are Mierin and Beidomon Heroes of the Horn?

The "precepts" limit Hero behavior between lives in TAR. They were not in TAR. Also, at that point Rand still wasn't sure about the whole Dragon thing. All he knew is that he could channel, and some Aes Sedai wanted him to believe he was LTT reborn. He actually argues with a disembodied Artur Hawkwing about it. If there are precepts about telling Heroes they are Heroes if they don't already know it, he was breaking them just as much by calling Rand Lews Therin as he would by identifying Mat and Perrin as such.



And my statement in response would be that we have no way to know if your statement is true or not. Who was the ta'veren that Siuan saw to discover that she had the Talent? What reason do we have to believe that said person was a Hero of the Horn? What reason do we have to believe that Perrin and Mat are Heroes, especially given that the HotH didn't mention it at Falme (unless Trumpeter and Bannerman are their super secret HotH codenames).

@SBC, you probably noticed this (and you're offering me support) but those statements state that Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren, not that ta'veren are not always Heroes of the Horn. Just wanted to keep the (completely abstract and theoretical) discussion grounded =P.

I never said that in order to be part of a repeating pattern meant that one had to be a HOTH. Obviously, people who live relatively mundane lives are part of the Pattern of the Ages, and HOTHs are capable of living completely mundane lives themselves. What I meant to emphasise is that Perrin and Mat's features and aspects are so primal and universal as to suggest that they must be heroes. How does one become a Hero of the Horn? We don't know for sure, but we can gather that it is by doing great deeds which are of benefit to the Pattern; this is exemplified in those few we know details of, Artur Hawkwing, Birgitte, and the Dragon. Mat and Perrin's actions are great deeds, and they are (so far, at least) of benefit to the Pattern. Both also have layer upon layer of symbolism and allusion built into them, references which we still understand today. In order for such legends to survive the turning of the Wheel, the deeds they are based on must be great indeed, especially since it's arguable as to whether legend has yet faded to myth in their cases. I would suggest that it would be remarkable, given all of that, if they weren't already Heroes of the Horn, and that this tale we are reading must be the story of how they became Heroes if that is the case.

Note that while Lanfear and Ishamael (and the other Forsaken and Shadow types) do play great roles, and repeatedly, their actions are detrimental to the Pattern rather than beneficial. Thus, they would not be added as Heroes, even though they might be spun out for what seems like a good reason (things getting too good for humanity, for instance).

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 12:25 PM
I think it's clear that individuals that bear thematic similarities to people from real world legends are meant to be HOTHs, since our age is either the 7th or (more likely) the 1st.

While showing other influences, Mat is pretty clearly an amalgam of Odin with a bit of Loki, while Perrin is Thor.

You could interpret that as Norse mythology actually representing a faded mythological reference to Third Age events, but I think that it's more likely that we're looking at reincarnations of HOTHs Perrin and Mat from the 5th, 6th, or 7th Age.

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 12:31 PM
I think it's clear that individuals that bear thematic similarities to people from real world legends are meant to be HOTHs, since our age is either the 7th or (more likely) the 1st.

While showing other influences, Mat is pretty clearly an amalgam of Odin with a bit of Loki, while Perrin is Thor.

You could interpret that as Norse mythology actually representing a faded mythological reference to Third Age events, but I think that it's more likely that we're looking at reincarnations of HOTHs Perrin and Mat from the 5th, 6th, or 7th Age.

Mat's also a Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(hero)), and owes an awful lot to many Irish figures (we recently realised he was a leprechaun, slightly tongue-in-cheek but no less relevant for that). Note that not every character who has mythological allusions is a HOTH; Lanfear, as the Daughter of the Night and bringer of the Collapse (fall) of the Age of Legends is the biblical Eve or Lilith, yet no-one would suggest she is a HOTH, and her type likely appears once per cycle, as does Ishamael, an even more primal figure of evil.

Grig
03-07-2012, 12:40 PM
I never said that in order to be part of a repeating pattern meant that one had to be a HOTH.

Actually yes, you did. That's what that "i.e." you tossed in means. "That is", or "in other words". If you didn't mean to say it, you shouldn't have =P.

I think it's clear that individuals that bear thematic similarities to people from real world legends are meant to be HOTHs, since our age is either the 7th or (more likely) the 1st.

I don't see where this is ever clear. Everyone is reborn and lives lives. There is no reason to assume that because someone has a story written about them that carries on to different ages, that they are meant to be HOTHs. This goes against Thom's point made repeatedly in the first couple books that the legends and people that are remembered tend to not even be the people that did great things in the first place. Unless there are HOTHs that are HOTHs just by merit of people thinking they did something great? There's some guy repeatedly spun out to steal everyone else's credit, I guess :-).

If all the real world legends are supposed to be heroes, then every single main character qualifies. We have Guinevere, Morgan la Faye, Gawain, Morgause, Ygrainne, Galahad, Merlin, Lancelot, Uther, Loki/Odin/Heimdall, Freyja, Kore, Perun, Asmodeus, Belial, Saul of Tarsus, Sammael, Tamlin...

You might as well ask Sanderson if every Main Character is a Hero of the Horn, because that's what it boils down to if everyone with a similarity to real world legends is a HOTH.

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Mat's also a Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(hero)), and owes an awful lot to many Irish figures (we recently realised he was a leprechaun, slightly tongue-in-cheek but no less relevant for that). Note that not every character who has mythological allusions is a HOTH; Lanfear, as the Daughter of the Night and bringer of the Collapse (fall) of the Age of Legends is the biblical Eve or Lilith, yet no-one would suggest she is a HOTH, and her type likely appears once per cycle, as does Ishamael, an even more primal figure of evil.

I think I may have been unclear - I'm not suggesting every character whose role fills mythic archetypes is a HOTH. Yes; Eve is an archetypal bringer of the fall who ends paradise. However, aside from her role, she's not identifiable as Lilith or Eve or any other mythic individual by characteristics; instead, she's identifiable by role.

Perrin and Mat, on the other hand, are identifiable by characteristics - Mat, as the polearm wielding, one-eyed charmer (Odin) and trickster (Loki); Perrin as the hammer-wielding muscle-bound, bearded beast of a man (Thor).

I will admit that Perrin's hammer even being named Mah'alleinir could shoot a hole in my theory that they are past lives of Thor and Odin, rather than remembered as Thor and Odin.

Anyway, I digress. Do you appreciate the difference I see? I recognize that it's not ironclad, but I think that recognizing the difference between characteristics of the Hero and role of the character is important.

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 12:52 PM
Actually yes, you did. That's what that "i.e." you tossed in means. "That is", or "in other words". If you didn't mean to say it, you shouldn't have =P.



I don't see where this is ever clear. Everyone is reborn and lives lives. There is no reason to assume that because someone has a story written about them that carries on to different ages, that they are meant to be HOTHs. This goes against Thom's point made repeatedly in the first couple books that the legends and people that are remembered tend to not even be the people that did great things in the first place. Unless there are HOTHs that are HOTHs just by merit of people thinking they did something great? There's some guy repeatedly spun out to steal everyone else's credit, I guess :-).

If all the real world legends are supposed to be heroes, then every single main character qualifies. We have Guinevere, Morgan la Faye, Gawain, Morgause, Ygrainne, Galahad, Merlin, Lancelot, Uther, Loki/Odin/Heimdall, Freyja, Kore, Perun, Asmodeus, Belial, Saul of Tarsus, Sammael, Tamlin...

You might as well ask Sanderson if every Main Character is a Hero of the Horn, because that's what it boils down to if everyone with a similarity to real world legends is a HOTH.

Not to be rude, but are you reading my posts, or just nitpicking them? I acknowledged that not every reborn soul or archetype that appears is a HOTH. My argument is that Mat and Perrin reach such a level of sheer archetype...ness that they must either be or about to become HOTHs. I mean, when Artur Hawkwing tells Hurin that sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, there's a couple of things going on: first, he's singling out Hurin, uniquely among the group assembled, as Not A HOTH Yet; second, he's letting us readers know that HOTHs aren't just a fixed group; you can join, and presumably, leave. I'm inclined to think that first in itself is strong enough evidence, but when you add up the fact that Mat and Perrin are legends in their own time already, it would be utterly shocking if they weren't part of that number. Remember, this is about Mat and Perrin, not every character who has some parallel or allusion - I mean, Hurin's name is taken from Tolkien, and we know for a fact he isn't a HOTH.

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 12:58 PM
I think I may have been unclear - I'm not suggesting every character whose role fills mythic archetypes is a HOTH. Yes; Eve is an archetypal bringer of the fall who ends paradise. However, aside from her role, she's not identifiable as Lilith or Eve or any other mythic individual by characteristics; instead, she's identifiable by role.

Perrin and Mat, on the other hand, are identifiable by characteristics - Mat, as the polearm wielding, one-eyed charmer (Odin) and trickster (Loki); Perrin as the hammer-wielding muscle-bound, bearded beast of a man (Thor).

I will admit that Perrin's hammer even being named Mah'alleinir could shoot a hole in my theory that they are past lives of Thor and Odin, rather than remembered as Thor and Odin.

Anyway, I digress. Do you appreciate the difference I see? I recognize that it's not ironclad, but I think that recognizing the difference between characteristics of the Hero and role of the character is important.

I do appreciate the difference, and I think it's a good distinction to make. Although it does raise some significant questions regarding Ishamael, specifically as to whether he is himself a HOTH. It certainly seems to be a character trait of his to be that representative of evil.

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Not to be rude, but are you reading my posts, or just nitpicking them? I acknowledged that not every reborn soul or archetype that appears is a HOTH. My argument is that Mat and Perrin reach such a level of sheer archetype...ness that they must either be or about to become HOTHs. I mean, when Artur Hawkwing tells Hurin that sometimes the Wheel adds to their number, there's a couple of things going on: first, he's singling out Hurin, uniquely among the group assembled, as Not A HOTH Yet; second, he's letting us readers know that HOTHs aren't just a fixed group; you can join, and presumably, leave. I'm inclined to think that first in itself is strong enough evidence, but when you add up the fact that Mat and Perrin are legends in their own time already, it would be utterly shocking if they weren't part of that number. Remember, this is about Mat and Perrin, not every character who has some parallel or allusion - I mean, Hurin's name is taken from Tolkien, and we know for a fact he isn't a HOTH.

Was Hurin intentionally copied from The Silmarillion? There are really only so many short names you can come up with.

Regardless, I agree that your observations bolster the likelihood that Mat and Perrin are already HOTHs; again, it's not flawless (after all, there's nothing that say that Hawkwing HAD to tell everyone present that they too could be a HOTH), but it bolsters the credibility of the theory.

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 01:14 PM
Was Hurin intentionally copied from The Silmarillion? There are really only so many short names you can come up with.

Regardless, I agree that your observations bolster the likelihood that Mat and Perrin are already HOTHs; again, it's not flawless (after all, there's nothing that say that Hawkwing HAD to tell everyone present that they too could be a HOTH), but it bolsters the credibility of the theory.

Regarding Hurin, it might or it might not. Without a doubt RJ had read The Silmarillion, so I'm inclined to think it is a nod-and-wink, but what you say holds water as well.

With regard to what Hawkwing said to Hurin, the question you have to ask is why direct that specifically to him if he could have addressed the group more generally with the line? As you say, there is no special reason why he had to tell them they could be HOTHs one day if they worked really hard, did their chores, and went to bed on time, but there is also no special reason to single out Hurin as someone who could be - especially since Mat and Perrin are far more likely candidates for adding if they're not already. Since he didn't, the only conclusion left open is that they already were.

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 01:18 PM
E: ^^^ I don't disagree with your conclusion, just with your characterization of it as the "only" conclusion.

I do appreciate the difference, and I think it's a good distinction to make. Although it does raise some significant questions regarding Ishamael, specifically as to whether he is himself a HOTH. It certainly seems to be a character trait of his to be that representative of evil.

Well, I'd say that a soul can have characteristics that express themselves in most or all lives it lives without being a Hero - where I begin to suspect "Hero" is when the character in the story has significant similarities to someone legendary in Earth's history or mythology.

The flaw to this methodology is that RJ borrowed a lot of mythology, up to and including names, for some characters that are not necessarily HOTHs, and where I can't even make a clear case. Gawyn (Gawain) most notable among these, I think.

This opens up a can of worms, though. Ishamael may very well be the Antidragon, as he claims. In that event, he's not just filling a role in the story; he has significant identifiable characteristics. How to explain that? Surely there are not evil HOTHs. And yet the role that he fills is very similar to the one that I posit for HOTHs. Are he and The Dragon spun out together, directly tied to one another like Birgitte and Gaidal? Is there an indirect with Ishamael somehow the Wheel's balancing mechanism, spun out when the Dragon is? Or maybe is The Dragon's birth actually The Wheels' reaction to The Betrayer's birth?

A whole lot of questions about the nature of capital-H Heroism in the context of Wheel metaphysics, and no answers.

Maybe Ishamael is just lying about being opposed to the Dragon in perpetuity (or the Dark One deceived him), and my whole consideration of the topic was moot.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-07-2012, 01:19 PM
@SBC, you probably noticed this (and you're offering me support) but those statements state that Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren, not that ta'veren are not always Heroes of the Horn. Just wanted to keep the (completely abstract and theoretical) discussion grounded =P.

Yes, I know. The interviews do NOT state anywhere that all ta'veren are HOHs. It is 1. a good question for Brandon/Team Jordan and 2.not something to assume EITHER way.

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 01:24 PM
Yes, I know. The interviews do NOT state anywhere that all ta'veren are HOHs. It is 1. a good question for Brandon/Team Jordan and 2.not something to assume EITHER way.

There should be a few corollary questions to that: is there frequent overlap between the two? Are ta'veren generally more or less common than spun-out HOTHs?

It seems like at least 50% (and if you accept the reasoning that Perrin and Mat may already be HOTHs, almost 100%) of the HOTHs we know about were ta'veren at some point in their lives (Rand, Lews Therin, Artur Hawkwing, etc.)

That's not to say that ta'veren are necessarily HOTHs, or that HOTHs are ta'veren (Birgitte is not, though the circumstances of her birth might lessen the import of that observation)...

Zombie Sammael
03-07-2012, 01:30 PM
E: ^^^ I don't disagree with your conclusion, just with your characterization of it as the "only" conclusion.



Well, I'd say that a soul can have characteristics that express themselves in most or all lives it lives without being a Hero - where I begin to suspect "Hero" is when the character in the story has significant similarities to someone legendary in Earth's history or mythology.

The flaw to this methodology is that RJ borrowed a lot of mythology, up to and including names, for some characters that are not necessarily HOTHs, and where I can't even make a clear case. Gawyn (Gawain) most notable among these, I think.

This opens up a can of worms, though. Ishamael may very well be the Antidragon, as he claims. In that event, he's not just filling a role in the story; he has significant identifiable characteristics. How to explain that? Surely there are not evil HOTHs. And yet the role that he fills is very similar to the one that I posit for HOTHs. Are he and The Dragon spun out together, directly tied to one another like Birgitte and Gaidal? Is there an indirect with Ishamael somehow the Wheel's balancing mechanism, spun out when the Dragon is? Or maybe is The Dragon's birth actually The Wheels' reaction to The Betrayer's birth?

A whole lot of questions about the nature of capital-H Heroism in the context of Wheel metaphysics, and no answers.

Maybe Ishamael is just lying about being opposed to the Dragon in perpetuity (or the Dark One deceived him), and my whole consideration of the topic was moot.

As I'm about to say to SBC below, though, you can infer some of the traits required for HOTH-dom from those HOTHs we do know a significant amount about. So far, those are Birgitte, the Dragon, Artur Hawkwing, and Gaidal Cain (in descending order of how much we know, but not necessarily relevant information). All of those are on the side of the Light, although we know the Dragon has turned, so it is possible to be a HOTH and be evil; Artur Hawkwing, while not evil, certainly went astray towards the end of his most recent life. All of them have performed great deeds, worthy of legend, that we still remember in our own age (each is an identifiable archetype). Note that earlier, I said that their deeds were in service to the Pattern, at the time not recollecting that the Dragon had turned in past ages, which makes a significant difference. Whilst we know that Demandred could never be the Dragon, it also tells us that roles do change, and thus I have to reverse my position on Ishamael: if he is right about his past lives, there is every chance he is a HOTH himself, unless there is some sort of aggregate pro-Light "score" applied. Nevertheless, deriving the characteristics from what we do know of them, we know they have to perform great deeds worthy of legend, and generally have to be heroic. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

Yes, I know. The interviews do NOT state anywhere that all ta'veren are HOHs. It is 1. a good question for Brandon/Team Jordan and 2.not something to assume EITHER way.

I agree that asking Team Jordan would be a great idea, but I think that - in the absence of evidence to the contrary - we can assume it to be the case that all ta'veren are HOTHs. If and when Brandon or Team Jordan say otherwise, then we'd have to re-evaluate our beliefs, but as it stands, we have evidence that that is the case.

Seth Baker
03-07-2012, 01:46 PM
I agree that asking Team Jordan would be a great idea, but I think that - in the absence of evidence to the contrary - we can assume it to be the case that all ta'veren are HOTHs. If and when Brandon or Team Jordan say otherwise, then we'd have to re-evaluate our beliefs, but as it stands, we have evidence that that is the case.

That makes sense as a matter of philosophy. The role of a ta'veren is twofold. First, they are driven hard to a particular path by the Wheel for the purpose of keeping the Pattern on track. Second, they have a strong enough effect on the weaving of the Pattern to ensure that their path is sufficient to achieve the ta'veren goals.

The strength of the individual's effect on the Pattern is, in a practical sense, how HOTHs are qualified in the first place. What shifts the Pattern - what allows the ta'verenness to have a sufficient effect, are the heroic and noteworthy actions of the ta'veren, whether military, political, diplomatic, or cultural. It is those very actions themselves; their distinctiveness and acclaim, that results in the HOTH being bound to the Wheel in the first place.

I'm not sure I'd agree that it's completely necessary, but certainly that there's a very strong correlation.