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neurotopia
03-03-2012, 07:30 PM
I've been thinking a bit about Taim after my last reread. Initially upon meeting Rand, he seems somewhat reserved, ok yes he's acts rather aloof but it isn't as snotty. Occasionally he's deferential to Rand and at times also oddly supportive, almost compassionate aka "you have to hold on until the last battle" when Rand is confronting another bout of madness. Moridin is much the same way when Rand enters his dream, for instance. Not necessarily chummy, but he acts as if they are familiar.

Later on Taim becomes more arrogant and disdainful, constantly passive-aggressive confrontational, and has that weird imitation thing on. He seems much less confident and comfortable in his own skin, so to speak. It almost seemed a sudden change. But there's little indication that the taint is taking hold. This seems more in line with how Demandred would mock Rand right under his nose.

I think that Taim's body is under control of both Ishydin and Demandred, though not at the same time obviously. If he died when he fell off his horse when Falme went down, this makes sense; the DO has this high-powered channeling body readily available to make use of. If Slayer can be a man with two souls, I don't see why the DO can't make this happen. Especially when there's a stasis box available to stash the body in when nobody is using it.

As things progress in the series, Moridin obviously can't get too chummy with Rand since they're apparently merging which might tip things off, so it seems to make sense that he could hand off control of Taim's body to Demandred occasionally. In this way, RJ is clearly not lying when he says Taimandred is BS, but then again there's more to the story.

Zombie Sammael
03-03-2012, 07:36 PM
Taimandred: the theory that just won't die.

I say again: Mazrim Taim is a Demandred, not the Demandred. ;)

Great Lord of the Dark
03-03-2012, 09:11 PM
Robert Jordan is wrong. Taim is Demandred.

greatwolf
03-04-2012, 01:04 AM
For me the problem has always been why did RJ laugh when he debunked Taimandred? Why?

eht slat meit
03-04-2012, 01:17 AM
For me the problem has always been why did RJ laugh when he debunked Taimandred? Why?

My guess would be because, as characters, they're nothing alike, and are only taken for one another because of the way the story has been written.

Consider that Taim is supremely confident, so arrogant as to proclaim himself the Dragon, yet despite his power fails to accomplish anything in this age. He'll submit to the Dragon, and cut his throat like an assassin when his time comes.

Demandred, on the other hand, is superemely skilled, second only to the Dragon himself in skill leadership prowess as a general, but has a ridiculous inferiority complex. His time will be in the heat of battle, standing over the Dragon's smoking corpse, his superiority finally proven, once and for all.

Yeah, rambling, I know. That's how I see them, though.

Dajoran
03-09-2012, 04:23 AM
I used to believe that Taim was our first victim of the 13x13 gambit.

I can't remember what line of text put me onto this. I'll have a looksee and see if I can dig it up.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 08:35 AM
I used to believe that Taim was our first victim of the 13x13 gambit.

I can't remember what line of text put me onto this. I'll have a looksee and see if I can dig it up.

That could make sense, given that he used to seem genuinely concerned, but he's never been described as having the dead eyes (something like "shadow shoved inside a skin") like the definite 13x13ers.

Heinz
03-09-2012, 09:59 AM
I also always assumed his concern was simply that prophecy be fulfilled, so he has to hold on till the Last Battle so the DO defeats him there.

That doesn't fit with him sending his protege's to kill Rand later, but then other Forsaken also flip-flop between killing Rand and keeping him alive, so it hasn't struck me as out-of-ordinary behavior.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 10:08 AM
I also always assumed his concern was simply that prophecy be fulfilled, so he has to hold on till the Last Battle so the DO defeats him there.

That doesn't fit with him sending his protege's to kill Rand later, but then other Forsaken also flip-flop between killing Rand and keeping him alive, so it hasn't struck me as out-of-ordinary behavior.

The other Forsaken seemed okay with killing him early in the series and then backed off when the Dark One said "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

Taim did the opposite. Which is quite peculiar, since it doesn't fit squarely with him being a high ranking Darkfriend - which he almost undoubtedly is.

Dajoran
03-09-2012, 10:15 AM
That could make sense, given that he used to seem genuinely concerned, but he's never been described as having the dead eyes (something like "shadow shoved inside a skin") like the definite 13x13ers.

(Note: I had a pretty big reply to go... but I lost it in the logins of doom... I need to start writing these up in notepad first... here's the tl;dr version)

I agree - and it is in the way that Brandon describes the eyes and smile of those who have been 13x13'd that puts me off the idea.

However, I often wonder whether certain aspects of Taim's personality is a subtle attempt at showing the same thing. If we boil it down to two things it is, at its essence, Odd Eyes and Awkward Smiles. (new band name...)

Taim is sometimes described as having dark eyes and quirk to his lips of a somewhat smile, or a smile that never touches his eyes.

The people who see Mezar and Tarna post-13x13ing know them prior to the change, and are more adept at noticing these glaring changes of character.

Rand, however, did not know Taim prior to LoC.

Bashere on the other hand spots a difference, but it is brushed over with Taim's 'shaving' comment.

I don't actually believe that Taim is a victim of 13x13. It's just an idea I get whenever I wonder what the process actually entails... what is it exactly that they are doing? Replacing souls? If so with what? etc.


It's all moot anyway... we already found out that Taim is one of Asmodean's horcruxes anyway.

mogi67
03-09-2012, 12:07 PM
What about the aura of darkness that follows Taim whenever he meets Elayne in Caemlyn in KOD? As if the light suddenly grows dim when he enters the room. As far as I know, we've only seen that mentioned with people who have channeled the TP.

Unless it's simply a weave, like the one that Dashiva uses when Rand goes to meet Cadsuane, where he creates a menacing feeling of dread or impending violence.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 12:47 PM
What about the aura of darkness that follows Taim whenever he meets Elayne in Caemlyn in KOD? As if the light suddenly grows dim when he enters the room. As far as I know, we've only seen that mentioned with people who have channeled the TP.

Unless it's simply a weave, like the one that Dashiva uses when Rand goes to meet Cadsuane, where he creates a menacing feeling of dread or impending violence.

Either could be. It doesn't make sense for him to be any of the Forsaken. He could be a new Forsaken-level Dreadlord, but it would seem odd for the Forsaken to treat Taim like an equal while treating the Black Ajah like worms; I don't see why the Dark One would let Taim channel the True Power and not any Black Ajah members.

So based on all that confusing stuff, I'd think that it's either a Talent that Elayne manifested without knowing it, or a weave that Taim was using to be intimidating. Though the similarities between that and Rand's post-TP channeling effect are hard to ignore.

Grig
03-09-2012, 12:53 PM
I don't see why the Dark One would let Taim channel the True Power and not any Black Ajah members.

Nor any of the Forsaken, save Graendal and Moridin. Recall that Moridin got "exclusive use of the TP" when he became Nae'blis, until Graendal got her pat on the head.

Though the similarities between that and Rand's post-TP channeling effect are hard to ignore.

Concur. Although also noteworthy is that Sanderson said that Rand's dark aura was only partially due to TP usage.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 01:05 PM
Concur. Although also noteworthy is that Sanderson said that Rand's dark aura was only partially due to TP usage.

Which begs the question: what else contributed to the aura? I can't think of anything that would be general enough to include both Taim and Rand, without it also including others of the Forsaken or anyone else evil/dark/touched by the Dark One. I also have a hard time thinking that any of the Dragon-specific stuff would apply, for obvious reasons.

Unless RJ and BS have just been completely lying to us all along and Taim is actually Moridin in secret. Or they crossed streams too. :rolleyes:

Flinn Sedai
04-07-2012, 04:52 PM
I always thought this was pretty straightforward.

Taim resents the way that Rand treats him. Yeah, he starts off arrogant, but that's because he is confident in his power. He was a (False) Dragon that raised an army, and killed his way through the Borderlands.

Now, he's been relegated to being, in his view, a dog who gets pat on the head when he does a good job (see: the pins), and whose authority is not based on his own ability, but on the "kindness" of Rand.

For somebody with his ego, that's a HUGE insult. That's why he gets more and more aggressive when Rand does it.

It's also what sold Taimandred, to me. It's the same reasoning that Demandred had, for resenting LTT.

His hawk-nosed profile was handsome enough, though not quite the sort to make every woman's heart beat faster. In a way, "almost" and "not quite" had been the story of Demandred's life. He had had the misfortune to be born one day after Lews Therin Telamon, who would become the Dragon, while Barid Bel Medar, as he was then, spent years almost matching Lews Therin's accomplishments, not quite matching Lews Therin's fame. Without Lews Therin, he would have been the most acclaimed man of the Age. Had he been appointed to lead instead of the man he considered his intellectual inferior, an overcautious fool who too often managed to scrape up luck, would he stand here today? Now, that was idle speculation, though she had made it before. No, the important point was that Demandred despised the Dragon, and now that the Dragon had been Reborn, he had transferred that contempt whole.

They halted a few paces before him at a gesture from Tumad. Rand opened his mouth, but before he could speak, Lews Therin rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him! I should have killed them all! Scorched the earth to kill them all! Scorch the earth!

edit: To clarify, Taimandred is obviously dead. It's what initially sold the idea to me.

greatwolf
04-08-2012, 02:21 AM
edit: To clarify, Taimandred is obviously dead. It's what initially sold the idea to me.

Agreed. He said it straight out afterall. :)

Taim, at Rand's first meeting, was about 35 to 41 years old. That roughly the same age we expect Demandred to look since he was just a day younger than LTT. So it isn't just a personality resemblance but physical as well.

But also at that first contact, LTT did not react to Taim immediately, there was a gap. You can contrast this with the scene with semirhage. Both Rand and LTT react at once to what they see by grabbing at once for saidin.

I think that means that Taim is in some way like Demandred but not Demandred. Or he is Demandred slightly altered.

PS: I wish we asked more questions about Logain. ~sigh~

AbbeyRoad
04-08-2012, 02:56 AM
For a while I held the belief that RJ originally meant for Taim to be Demandred's alter ego, but then realized it was entirely too obvious and would come as no surprise, so decided to change his mind at the last minute after book 6 was published and rewrote the character in subsequent books accordingly.

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 06:13 AM
For a while I held the belief that RJ originally meant for Taim to be Demandred's alter ego, but then realized it was entirely too obvious and would come as no surprise, so decided to change his mind at the last minute after book 6 was published and rewrote the character in subsequent books accordingly.
Considering that RJ wrote a third age copy of just about every Forsaken's motivations, I really doubt that Taim's personality was modified or retconned because RJ changed his mind.

Example: Temaile Kinderode (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/t/temaile.html) is a sadist who scares her partners in crime; A Semirhage wannabe.

GonzoTheGreat
04-08-2012, 06:35 AM
Example: Temaile Kinderode (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/t/temaile.html) is a sadist who scares her partners in crime; A Semirhage wannabe.
And Egwene is like Lanfear, but without the staying power.

Weird Harold
04-08-2012, 03:32 PM
And Egwene is like Lanfear, but without the staying power.
Not even close. :(

Flinn Sedai
04-08-2012, 03:35 PM
Not even close. :(

Agreed. That's an almost insulting comparison.

Maybe Moggy? A coward who does all her work through manipulations, and everybody kind of hates.

suttree
04-08-2012, 07:39 PM
Taim, at Rand's first meeting, was about 35 to 41 years old. That roughly the same age we expect Demandred to look since he was just a day younger than LTT.

No he wasn't, he looked older due to the rigors of his journey. He is in his late 20s...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005
DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)
Ted Herman
How old is Taim and has he slowed?
Robert Jordan
Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.


Maybe Moggy? A coward who does all her work through manipulations, and everybody kind of hates.

Errmm because she has shown to be so cowardly? Lol

GonzoTheGreat
04-09-2012, 04:04 AM
Maybe Moggy? A coward who does all her work through manipulations, and everybody kind of hates.
I didn't know that LTT and Moggy were ever an item together. Maybe that's what Birgitte crashed into at the time, though. Could explain why Moggy is still carrying a grudge.

Flinn Sedai
04-09-2012, 08:53 AM
I didn't know that LTT and Moggy were ever an item together. Maybe that's what Birgitte crashed into at the time, though. Could explain why Moggy is still carrying a grudge.

Oh come on. You think Lanfear and Moggy only fought over TAR? Please...

Weiramon
04-09-2012, 01:32 PM
PS: I wish we asked more questions about Logain.

Aye, this is what everyone should be discussing. This Ablar fellow likely channelled great amounts of Saidin for a lengthy period of time, and yet shows little sign of madness. It is obvious - he is quite mad, and seeks to hide it by acting rationally. Only a fool would be deceived.

As for Taim, he is clearly just as he seems, a third age channeller, loyal to the Lord Dragon, who just happened to have studied second age lore in his spare time, and gave up his cultural traditions in order to escape Aes Sedai detection, and referring to himself in the third person simply shows he is only slightly touched by the Taint, as one would expect of someone who lacks the Great . . . I mean the Dark One's protection.