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View Full Version : Sammael in Baerlon in tEotW?


jarno87
03-04-2012, 11:51 AM
Hey all,

I just started my final reread before the release of aMoL. While I read the beginning of tEotW, I found a description of a man which sounded familiar. I think it might be Sammael spying on our heros.

In chapter 17, the hero-party go and enjoy themselves with dancing in the common room. They are spied upon by a man with a scar:


Everyone in the room was laughing, he thought as he danced around his next partner, one of the serving
maids with her apron flapping wildly. The only unsmiling face he saw was on a man huddled by one of the
fireplaces, and that fellow had a scar that crossed his whole face from one temple to the opposite jaw, giving his
nose a slant and drawing the corner of his mouth down. The man met his gaze and grimaced, and Rand looked
away in embarrassment. Maybe with that scar the fellow could not smile.
...
The scar-faced man was scowling at him. His step faltered and his cheeks grew hot. He had not meant to
embarrass the fellow; he really did not think he had stared. He turned to meet his next partner and forgot all
about the man. The next woman to dance into his arms was Nynaeve.

Then the music and the clapping and the singing were too loud for any further talk. Rand and Perrin
joined in the clapping as the dancers circled the floor. Several times he became aware of the scar-faced man
staring at him. The man had a right to be touchy, with that scar, but Rand did not see anything he could do now
that would not make matters worse. He concentrated on the music and avoided looking at the fellow.

A bit later the three boys discus the fellow with Lan:
"There's a fellow been staring at me," Mat said. " A man with a scar across his face. You don't think he
could be a . . . one of the friends you warned us about?"
"Like this?" Rand said, drawing a finger across his nose to the corner of his mouth. "He stared at me,
too." He looked around the room. People were drifting away, and most of those still left clustered around Thom.
"He's not here, now."
"I saw the man," Lan said. " According to Master Pitch, he's a spy for the Whitecloaks. He's no worry to
us. " Maybe he was not, but Rand could see something was bothering the Warder.
Rand glanced at Mat, who had the stiff expression on his face that always meant he was hiding
something. A Whitecloak spy.

They just dismiss the fellow as being non important. The description of the scar on his face made me think about one of the forsaken having a big scar.
Via the description of Sammel in encyclopaedia-wot I found the following parts in the tFoH Prologue:

Sammael was compact, solid and larger-seeming than he truly was, his stride quick and active, his
manner abrupt. Blue-eyed and golden-haired, with a neat squaretrimmed beard, he would perhaps have been
above the ordinary in looks except for a slanting scar, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged across his face
from hairline to jaw.. He could have had it removed as soon as it was made, all those long years ago, but' he had
elected not to.
...
Sammael absently rubbed the scar across his face; it had been Lews Therm who gave it to him. Three
thousand years ago and more, well before the Breaking of the World, before the Great Lord was imprisoned,
before so much, but Sammael never forgot.


So we have two man with a very distinctive scar which are described almost identically. It would be very unlikely that there are two man in Randland with both such a special scar.
So could it be that instead of just a whitecloak spy we have one of the forsaken spying on the boys.
So I wonder could it be Sammael who is watching the boys there in Baerlon?

Zombie Sammael
03-04-2012, 12:09 PM
It's certainly something interesting to consider. If it was Sammael, that suggests the Forsaken were free far earlier than we thought (at the end of TEOTW). It's also true that Sammael wasn't sealed particularly close to the edge of the bore, so that would mean other Forsaken would have been free around that time, which contradicts some of the evidence we have - we know that Lanfear, at least, didn't get out until the end of TEOTW/start of TGH and wasn't subject to the ravages of time that the three who were sealed near to the surface were. For those reasons, I'm inclined to think it wasn't Sammael, but there is certainly more than one mystery surrounding Sammael; the circumstances of his death and his hypothesised connection to Fain also stand out. His role in the story, one way or another, may not be as done as we think.

Seeker
03-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Well, RJ certainly draws enough attention to this man to make you wonder but here's my argument for why it was not Sammael.


Rand is still alive.

We've seen on numerous occasions that Sammael is a shoot first, ask questions later sort of guy. If he encountered a young, untrained Dragon Reborn - and if he knew what he was looking at - he would have burned Rand to ash then and there. Moiraine would have been all but helpless against him and none of the others knew how to channel yet.

The man was obviously interested in Rand, interested enough that we can assume that he knew Rand was important in some way. Perhaps it was just a spy for the Whitecloaks who was curious about a few boys who happened to be traveling with an Aes Sedai but if it was Sammael, then the only possible explanation is that he did not realize that he was looking at Lews Therin Telamon reborn.

And if that was the case, one wonders why Sammael never thought to himself. “And there he was, al'Thor right in front of me and I didn't kill him” in any of the books that followed.

The Unreasoner
03-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Even if it was Sammael, there is no reason to think he would know who Rand is at this point. Semmirhage didn't know Mat even as late as WH.

I think the timing is more of an issue than anything. But it is interesting.

Seeker
03-04-2012, 02:57 PM
Even if it was Sammael, there is no reason to think he would know who Rand is at this point. Semmirhage didn't know Mat even as late as WH.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."

Zombie Sammael
03-04-2012, 03:31 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."

At the time Ishy showed his pictures to the DF social, he was not yet Nae'blis. Therefore, he would have been keen to maintain his position amongst the other Chosen, and his knowing the appearance of the ta'veren trio - as he definitely did, having met all of them in TAR - would have been a definite advantage. Why give it away? Remember, the Chosen are picked for selfishness. Ishy would have had to display at least some of that just to survive.

Indeed, Sammael may well have not known what he was looking at, and may well have not put two and two together even later on. Davram Bashere was unable to recognise Mazrim Taim, a man he knew well, after he'd been "ridden hard and put away wet". Was Rand not in a similar position that night in Baerlon? And did he not go through enough, in the few months between then and encountering Sammael - which he only did just before fighting and killing him, it's not like they were video chatting over Skype - that even his friends marked the change in him? It's entirely realistic that if that was him in Baerlon, he wouldn't recognise Rand.

The timing issue seems like a much stronger argument, but maybe hints at things we are as yet unaware of.

greatwolf
03-04-2012, 03:43 PM
It could have been Sammael, wondering why Ishamael was interested in the farmboys and knowing nothing else. But the description leaves out Sammael's distinctive beard. Did he feel threatened enough to hide that?

confused at birth
03-04-2012, 03:47 PM
It could have been Sammael, wondering why Ishamael was interested in the farmboys and knowing nothing else.

Since some people think Taim was trained by Ishy maybe this is the same. He was just in the area doing a little research, felt Rand channel and went looking for an apprentice but couldnt figure out who it was without making a scene so he left.

But the description leaves out Sammael's distinctive beard. Did he feel threatened enough to hide that?

He would have been used to the age of legends version of an electric razor so he probably messed it up the first time he used a straight edge razor and pair of scissors and had to shave the whole thing off and start again.

Anyway did he ever actually see Rand until the fight to the death?
He might have never known he missed his chance until it was to late.

eht slat meit
03-04-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm thinking it's probably a mistake to conclude that scar and scar equals the same person - we're talking about an age where war and battle are fairly commonplace, and what with the dude being Whitecloak scum, it's not unlikely that he'd have earned that scar pillaging a village in the name of the Light.

John Snow
03-04-2012, 11:01 PM
and thank, Terez for alerting me to this thread. This has been a favorite theory of mine, for which I have been heaped with much ridicule over these many years. Someone came up with a refutation at some point which impressed me but did not entirely disenchant of this theory. I will add one further bit to this, namely that it was Sammael who brought the darkspawn into Baerlon, with the intent of stomping on the three ta'veren, who might or might not include the Dragon. I don't know how much he knew of what Moiraine knew, namely that there were the 3, one of whom etc etc, but he clearly thought this was a place where he could easily handle, ie with some trollocs and a coupla fades, three potential problems. The three survived not because Sammael was incompetent or not ruthless enough, but because they were ta'veren and because Moiraine, while not that powerful, was clever, quick, and resourceful.

The Unreasoner
03-04-2012, 11:28 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."

ZS pretty much said what needs to be said here. I'll just make a few points:


The timing is really the most compelling, and the only conclusive evidence
The second strongest point seems to be, to me at least, the pointlessness of the possibility. I can't imagine any larger purpose to Sammael in Baerlon.
The whole 'why haven't we seen Sammael say things like: HE WAS UNDER MY FLAMING NOSE!' seems pretty flimsy to me. There is no reason to think that he would know Rand's face yet, and I doubt he has much of a memory for the faces of what he sees to be 'ignorant savage weaklings.' ZS is right: putting 2 and 2 together here may not be as simple as you think.


Anyway, on Sammael not knowing the face yet, I have a quote on a similar issue from as late as KoD, Ch.3:
“If you want to kill someone,” he went on. “kill these two!” Suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces. One was tall and wide, with yellow eyes, of all things, while the other was not quite slender and wore a cheeky grin. Creations of Tel aran'rhiod- they moved stiffly and their expressions never altered. “Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them, and kill them.”


Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. “Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.”


“Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon,” Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. “So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."

greatwolf
03-05-2012, 12:48 AM
He would have been used to the age of legends version of an electric razor so he probably messed it up the first time he used a straight edge razor and pair of scissors and had to shave the whole thing off and start again.

Anyway did he ever actually see Rand until the fight to the death?
He might have never known he missed his chance until it was to late.


He'll shave with what he knows: the OP. Or get a body servant. He knew about Mat as of aCoS, not just Rand. So he must have spies and probably had them early.

Anyway, on Sammael not knowing the face yet, I have a quote on a similar issue from as late as KoD, Ch.3:

Is that proof of anything? What if she lied? She might have been avoiding confrontation with a taveren. Graendal's retort was very quick if you notice, and up till now, none of the forsaken have personally tried to kill either Mat or Perrin. Without using the TP, which they've been denied access to, I doubt they'll pull it off.

The Unreasoner
03-05-2012, 01:55 AM
Is that proof of anything? What if she lied? She might have been avoiding confrontation with a taveren. Graendal's retort was very quick if you notice, and up till now, none of the forsaken have personally tried to kill either Mat or Perrin. Without using the TP, which they've been denied access to, I doubt they'll pull it off.
You don't honestly think it was Sammael in TEotW, do you?

No it's not proof. But even Ishamael was still learning their faces in TEotW. I doubt Sammael would be further ahead. I'm not sure Graendal's 'retort' was unusually quick. And it hardly seems to contradict my point in any case:
Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. “Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.”

Especially since Graendal has perhaps the widest network of Darkfriend contacts aside from Morridin. So Graendal might very well know all three faces from her own contacts.

Semmirhage may have lied, but if she did, it changes little: she probably was accurate on Morridin not revealing the ta'veren before. In other words, if Semirhage feigned ignorance, her knowledge came from sources independent of Morridin. Because a lie about Morridin would be stupid indeed, as he was standing right there and would know. So even if it was just a ruse to justify inaction, it was a good ruse (and so ignorance was at least a somewhat reasonable excuse). And this is as late as KoD. Imagine how much more plausible it might be in TEotW.

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2012, 04:00 AM
Semirhage had been ignoring Mat for quite a while when he was busy being Tylin's pet. If Semirhage had known that he was necessary for the DR to have any chance at all, then she would have had him killed, or taken care of it herself. Yet there is no indication at all that she's ever considered doing that.

Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that she simply was not aware of his importance at all. And that's what she is referring to with her comment to Moridin: that if she had gotten this information, then she could (would) have used it.

Now, just a bit earlier, Sammael obviously knew about Mat. But then, there had been a very well publicised plan to have Mat lead the army which was supposedly going to kill Sammael. That kind of thing tends to draw the attention of someone who fancies himself a general.

Landro
03-05-2012, 06:24 AM
Early in the series the plot was to convert the Dragon. Killing wasn't really their aim at that point in the time line.

You could argue that Sammael could have disobeyed but either way, I don't think it was him. If Sammael was free at that point he would probably be too busy thinking of ways to gather a nation behind the DO. (Like Illian)

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2012, 07:13 AM
I don't think there was such an overarching Shadow policy in the early part of the series. It isn't until LoC that we get any indication that the DO has given a "do not kill the Dragon" order.

Until that time, it was all up to the individual hobbies of the Forsaken.
Ishamael wanted to turn the Dragon and kill all his supporters. So that's what he tried to do, and that is what his orders to the DFs were about.
Lanfear wanted to seduce the Dragon (or, better yet, have him seduce her). She didn't care about any of his friends, unless they stood in her way or could be useful to her.
Be'lal wanted to use the Dragon to take Callandor out of its encasement and then kill him.
Graendal wanted the Dragon to kill all her rivals, so that she would be unopposed after the DO had killed Rand.
Sammael, Demandred and Rahvin would have killed the Dragon as soon as they saw an opportunity to do so.

greatwolf
03-05-2012, 07:36 AM
You don't honestly think it was Sammael in TEotW, do you?

No it's not proof. But even Ishamael was still learning their faces in TEotW. I doubt Sammael would be further ahead.

I don't but with RJ, i think its always wise to keep an open mind.

Heinz
03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
My primary hesitation to think this could be one in the same person are comments made from Aginor and Balthamel (I forget which could speak, and which not) at the end of tEotW which imply that they are the first released due to their proximity to the 'outside', which also caused their decay.

I will grant that is implication, however, and no timeline is given. They may have been the first released.. months or a year before tEotW events began, so that by now the others are released too. Perhaps Sammael is scouting out people whom the Dark One is interested in. Perhaps he's scouting out the world at this point to get a handle on the current climate and decide where to set his power base up.

That does beg the question though: If other Forsaken are free at this time, especially Ishy himself, why were none of them in the Two Rivers on Winternight?

greatwolf
03-05-2012, 09:28 AM
That does beg the question though: If other Forsaken are free at this time, especially Ishy himself, why were none of them in the Two Rivers on Winternight?

Why would the others be there? It was Ishy's thing. And he wasn't even there! Why go to the remotest place in RL on winternight?

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2012, 09:32 AM
Why would the others be there? It was Ishy's thing. And he wasn't even there! Why go to the remotest place in RL on winternight?
"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still."

Lanfear at least did have a good reason for going there, it would seem.
And a bunch of the other Forsaken would have been quite willing to Travel to the remotest place if that would allow them to kill LTT. He hadn't been universally liked, after all.

Zombie Sammael
03-05-2012, 09:40 AM
"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still."

Lanfear at least did have a good reason for going there, it would seem.
And a bunch of the other Forsaken would have been quite willing to Travel to the remotest place if that would allow them to kill LTT. He hadn't been universally liked, after all.

So you're saying Tuon was involved in the Winternight attack? :confused: :p

Terez
03-05-2012, 10:01 AM
That does beg the question though: If other Forsaken are free at this time, especially Ishy himself, why were none of them in the Two Rivers on Winternight?
Or more generally, why weren't they doing anything at all? Most of the clues point to the Forsaken setting up somewhere around the time that Rand and Co. spent 4 months tripping on Portal Stones.

PS—Ishamael appeared to have difficulties, since he had trouble appearing at Shadar Logoth. I suspect his time had already run out by then, or that he was being pulled back into the Bore, or something like that, since he had no trouble appearing around the time of the Aiel War.

Fin
03-05-2012, 07:36 PM
I always thought that guy to be a Whitecloak spy.

Davian93
03-05-2012, 07:43 PM
I always thought that guy to be a Whitecloak spy.

That's because he was a whitecloak spy and that was even mentioned in the chapter he appears.

Though this is one of the more off-the-wall threads I've seen in a while.

Seth Baker
03-05-2012, 09:43 PM
That's because he was a whitecloak spy and that was even mentioned in the chapter he appears.

Though this is one of the more off-the-wall threads I've seen in a while.

Agreed. What seals it for me is that Sammael's scar is never described as affecting his nose and mouth. This guy's scar twists his nose and turns the corner of his mouth down. Moreover, it doesn't address Sammael's other signature characteristics - blond hair and beard, his shortness and stockiness...

Two people can have scars. In general, the guy needed something distinctive about him to draw Rand's attention to drive the plot.

No way.

Tollingtoy
03-08-2012, 06:08 PM
RJ was a very smart man and rarely did ANYTHING in these books without some purpose behind it. If that really was Sammael in Baerlon, you have to ask yourself, what purpose does it serve? Why would RJ go to the trouble of putting him in that inn that night if it adds absolutely nothing to the story?

Personally, I think TEOTW has a few inconsistencies because RJ didn't really envision the story to grow into what it eventually became. To my knowledge, there is no description of Sammael in that book or any of the next few. Maybe it was a subconscious connection made by RJ.

Seth Baker
03-08-2012, 08:46 PM
RJ was a very smart man and rarely did ANYTHING in these books without some purpose behind it. If that really was Sammael in Baerlon, you have to ask yourself, what purpose does it serve? Why would RJ go to the trouble of putting him in that inn that night if it adds absolutely nothing to the story?

Personally, I think TEOTW has a few inconsistencies because RJ didn't really envision the story to grow into what it eventually became. To my knowledge, there is no description of Sammael in that book or any of the next few. Maybe it was a subconscious connection made by RJ.

Because, in order for the Whitecloaks to have a reason to confront them at the wall, they needed an informant to advise them where the Fellowship was? In order for the informant to noticeable, he had to be physically distinctive. People other than Sammael are allowed to have facial scars (Masema, Ragan, etc.).

This theory is founded on the fact that the guy has a facial scar. No other description matches, despite Sammael having other distinctive features and his scar's distinctiveness actually being DIFFERENT from the Whitecloak spy's.

It ignores the fact that Aginor and Balthamel were the first two released from the Dark One's prison, and that Sammael was much deeper, at least as deep as Lanfear who was likely not as released until a couple of weeks after the Eye.

I'll believe this one when you can get Maria or Brandon to confirm it. Until then, it's completely speculative and very tenuous, and you're ignoring the blatantly obvious need to have a distinctive, noticeable character as the spy for the Whitecloaks.

Terez
03-09-2012, 07:12 AM
Though this is one of the more off-the-wall threads I've seen in a while.
It's Jon Snow's pet theory. He seems to hold a (minor) grudge against me for arguing him down on it last time he visited the General board.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2012, 07:26 AM
It's Jon Snow's pet theory. He seems to hold a (minor) grudge against me for arguing him down on it last time he visited the General board.
You have a bad habit of doing that kind of thing. You also shot down an idea of mine which depended (can't remember how) on Logain being present during the Cleansing, merely on the grounds that he wasn't there.

Terez
03-09-2012, 07:32 AM
I think that your (minor) grudge in that case probably has more to do with the fact that I found it so funny, I kept bringing it up every now and then for about a year after that. Then I got over it, and you decided to reclaim it.

maacaroni
03-09-2012, 07:42 AM
It reads like Sammael except that it doesn't tie in with the 'release' of the rest of the forsaken. That's the flaw.

The Unreasoner
03-09-2012, 07:43 AM
And the little issue of 'why'

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2012, 08:31 AM
Well, there's also the (undoubtedly minor) detail that Sammael as such wasn't even mentioned until some time in TDR.

Terez
03-09-2012, 08:36 AM
Well, there's also the (undoubtedly minor) detail that Sammael as such wasn't even mentioned until some time in TDR.
In interviews RJ said that it took him 4 years to write TEOTW because he realized as he was writing it that there were a lot of things that he had to figure out about the world right then, things he'd assumed he could put off till later. As the Forsaken weren't intended to be big players until later books, he had no real reason to develop all of them. Just the ones who would be important early on.

Seth Baker
03-09-2012, 08:46 AM
It reads like Sammael except that it doesn't tie in with the 'release' of the rest of the forsaken. That's the flaw.

There's no mention of Sammael's blond hair and blue eyes (which we know is VERY distinctive in the Wetlands - it's basically present only in Aiel, the Andoran royal family, and some Taraboners, but with brown eyes).

The scar is described differently from Sammael's - affecting his nose and mouth distinctively, where Sammael's does not share that description.

The Whitecloak spy's importance in the book is limited to his use as a plot device to get the Whitecloaks there for the escape from Baerlon; even if it were Sammael, he doesn't actually DO anything there.

This is pure conjecture, and it's ignoring the differences in description and the significantly omitted fact that Sammael is probably one of the most physically distinctive individuals in the world - having effectively Aiel coloration, a very broad frame, but being short, and having a distinctive scar (that is different from the one described here).

E: Regarding the argument that Sammael wouldn't recognize them - are we to believe that Ishamael knows them (to the point of having found their dreams) - and has even told multiple Myrddraal about them, but that Sammael has no clue? Again, conceivable, but doubtful.

mogi67
03-09-2012, 12:14 PM
Oh look a man with a scar
must be sammael

kivo
03-10-2012, 10:48 AM
That's because he was a whitecloak spy and that was even mentioned in the chapter he appears.

Though this is one of the more off-the-wall threads I've seen in a while.

OMG Sebban Bawler was Naeblis???

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Mat Cauthon is Thom Merrilin because they both have a limp.

Zombie Sammael
03-10-2012, 12:35 PM
Mat Cauthon is Thom Merrilin because they both have a limp.

Thematically speaking, they are very similar.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Thematically speaking, they are very similar.

Also, the Green Man was also Sammael and the Whitecloak spy. He has a facial scar too.

Zombie Sammael
03-10-2012, 12:45 PM
Also, the Green Man was also Sammael and the Whitecloak spy. He has a facial scar too.

Pfff, now you're just being silly. Next you'll be telling me Valan Luca is the Dragon Reborn.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 01:23 PM
Pfff, now you're just being silly. Next you'll be telling me Valan Luca is the Dragon Reborn.

No, he's Batsuperman.