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Cortar
03-10-2012, 04:26 AM
How fast do weaves move? Is their speed determined by the strength of the channeller, the size of the weave, etc?

Weird Harold
03-10-2012, 05:24 AM
How fast do weaves move? Is their speed determined by the strength of the channeller, the size of the weave, etc?
I don't think there is enough evidence to draw even wild conclusions on this topic.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 09:42 AM
I don't think there is enough evidence to draw even wild conclusions on this topic.

We might be able to generally extrapolate from some of the longer range weaving and how it's described happening, but we'd have to fabricate a timeframe generally based on how the action is occurring.

...and, in the end, it wouldn't wind up being any more accurate than our general impression, which is (for me) something along the lines of "Maybe 75 or 100 miles per hour?"

GonzoTheGreat
03-10-2012, 10:55 AM
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen balefire stream?

Terez
03-10-2012, 10:58 AM
1/0 kps

The Unreasoner
03-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Is it a Sharan channeler, or a Westlands channeler with the balefire?

Weird Harold
03-10-2012, 11:06 AM
...and, in the end, it wouldn't wind up being any more accurate than our general impression, which is (for me) something along the lines of "Maybe 75 or 100 miles per hour?"

It is also dependent on the weave -- your 75-100 mph might be a close approximation for something like a Bridge of Air but a gross underestimate of a long range lightning bolt (a la the trolloc killer in the Sone of Tear)

There are simple too many variables for a meaningful discussion. I would say that the "speed of a weave" is probably between one-inch-per-hour and greater-than-light-speed and don't think it can be generalized to closer tolerances. :D

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
It is also dependent on the weave -- your 75-100 mph might be a close approximation for something like a Bridge of Air but a gross underestimate of a long range lightning bolt (a la the trolloc killer in the Sone of Tear)

There are simple too many variables for a meaningful discussion. I would say that the "speed of a weave" is probably between one-inch-per-hour and greater-than-light-speed and don't think it can be generalized to closer tolerances. :D

Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning. Do you actually channel the bolt? Or is it simply creating electromagnetic poles at separate points, causing the bolt to form by itself? In the former, the weaves themselves travel at the standard weave speed; in the latter, they have to travel at the speed of light.

finnssss
03-10-2012, 03:59 PM
Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning. Do you actually channel the bolt? Or is it simply creating electromagnetic poles at separate points, causing the bolt to form by itself? In the former, the weaves themselves travel at the standard weave speed; in the latter, they have to travel at the speed of light.

Evidence would tend to support the latter.
We have seen fireballs dissipated when they have come into contact with power cancelling ter'angreal.
Lanfear/Cyndane's fireball on Alivia for example in WH.
The same can not be said for lightning strikes as evidenced by the one that killed Mat in tFoH.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 04:11 PM
Evidence would tend to support the latter.
We have seen fireballs dissipated when they have come into contact with power cancelling ter'angreal.
Lanfear/Cyndane's fireball on Alivia for example in WH.
The same can not be said for lightning strikes as evidenced by the one that killed Mat in tFoH.

I disagree. A lightning bolt is different from a fireball - it's an electric discharge rather than combustion. The function is different, and you'd only need weaves into the clouds to create lightning strikes that hit the ground.

Have we established whether Mat's ter'angreal can block weaves of Saidin? If not conclusively, that could explain how undirected lightning strikes could hit him - because the weaves never do.

I think it's far more sensible to conclude that the speed of the weaves is constant and that lightning uses some different technique than fireballs than to decide that you can move weaves at whatever you speed you want, but that that speed is capped variously depending on what is being woven. If you can move fire and air at extremely high speed for lightning, but only at 75-150 mph for a fireball - why the discrepancy? Is there some kind of ether that's resisting some weaves more than others? That's what I take issue with.

The Unreasoner
03-10-2012, 04:17 PM
It's strongly implied that Mat's ter'angreal can break weaves of saidin in LoC, in a scene with Halima at Salidar. It may have been confirmed since then.

And lightning is indeed an 'indirect' use of the Power.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 04:23 PM
It's strongly implied that Mat's ter'angreal can break weaves of saidin in LoC, in a scene with Halima at Salidar. It may have been confirmed since then.

And lightning is indeed an 'indirect' use of the Power.

Ah, the sweet taste of victory. :D

finnssss
03-10-2012, 08:04 PM
I disagree. A lightning bolt is different from a fireball - it's an electric discharge rather than combustion. The function is different, and you'd only need weaves into the clouds to create lightning strikes that hit the ground.

What are you disagreeing with? The latter option was that they are different.
If we're talking about what would be faster, it would depend on the distance to the target.
Obviously channeling a fireball that only has to travel 20 yards is going to hit before the weaves going into the sky to create the lightning bolt arrive there to manifest said bolt.
Seems to me that the only way the lightning bolt would arrive before the fireball is if the distance to the target was further away than the distance to create the bolt.
Assuming of course that the fireball travels at the same speed as a weave. If it doesn't then things get a bit more complicated but over a very short distance the fireball would still arrive sooner.

RJ himself has said that Lightning is an indirect attack and the bolt itself is not made of the power.

Have we established whether Mat's ter'angreal can block weaves of Saidin? If not conclusively, that could explain how undirected lightning strikes could hit him - because the weaves never do.

It's conclusive, The scene with Halima/Aran'gar during the dance leaves no other conclusion.

Add to that...
Q: Does Mat's medallion work against all types of Power, or just against saidar? Because you know he said in the book, something to be free of Aes Sedai.
A: Yes, that is what he said specifically, but you know, Aes Sedai were both male and female once, and so we don't know yet, and I will have to RAFO that.
Another person from audience: But that was in book six.
Brandon: Was it in book six?
Audience: Yeah, that's where Aran'gar gets him with a weave.
Brandon: Oh, that's right; it did happen. You see, I know a lot of stuff....but I get in trouble if I say too much, because at one of the early signings....no, it wasn't even one of the signings; it was JordanCon. I was talking about....someone asked me a question, and I started answering, talking about, 'Do you remember that scene, where this happened, and this happened, and this happened....' and everyone started staring at me blankly. And I'm like, 'What? No...' and I argued with them that this scene existed. I promised them. No one remembered it! And about a month later, I realized as I was looking through it, 'Oh, it was a deleted scene from book seven.' Which now, in my head, is in book seven! And so I'm very careful not saying things I know, but you're right; that was proven in the books.

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 08:59 PM
Sorry, my confusion was rooted in the fact that I screwed up "former" and "latter" in my own post. I thought you were disagreeing with me, when you were actually agreeing.

finnssss
03-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Sorry, my confusion was rooted in the fact that I screwed up "former" and "latter" in my own post. I thought you were disagreeing with me, when you were actually agreeing.

Yeah, kinda what I figured. I thought we were on the same page.

Just wanted to be clear and not jump on ya over it ;)

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Yeah, kinda what I figured. I thought we were on the same page.

Just wanted to be clear and not jump on ya over it ;)

I admire your restraint.

Weird Harold
03-10-2012, 10:23 PM
Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning.

The trolloc killing weave in the stone of tear only seemed to be delayed by the need to distinguish friend from enemy -- i.e. the weave, as opposed to the lightning it caused, arrived throughout the Stone simultaneously, at "the speed of thought."

FWIW, The latter term is as meaningless as "the speed of the OP"

The Unreasoner
03-10-2012, 10:28 PM
I admire your restraint.
I don't. Where are the figs and mice when you need them?

Seth Baker
03-10-2012, 10:49 PM
The trolloc killing weave in the stone of tear only seemed to be delayed by the need to distinguish friend from enemy -- i.e. the weave, as opposed to the lightning it caused, arrived throughout the Stone simultaneously, at "the speed of thought."

FWIW, The latter term is as meaningless as "the speed of the OP"

If it can always travel at the speed of thought, then these elaborate battles that we see would be impossible. Even if reflexes with weaving the One Power are faster than physical reflexes (which wouldn't make sense), then these fists of air, fireballs, and blasts of Balefire would immediately strike the target, without the delay necessary for parry, block, or avoidance.

Weird Harold
03-10-2012, 11:15 PM
... fists of air, fireballs, and blasts of Balefire ...

Which is why this whole discussion is pointless.

Each of the weaves you named are woven close to the channeler and directed to the target. the ability to dodge or deflect the effect of the weave tells us nothing about the speed of the OP at all. forming the weave closer to the target might negate the ability to dodge or deflect.

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 03:35 AM
Which is why this whole discussion is pointless.

Each of the weaves you named are woven close to the channeler and directed to the target. the ability to dodge or deflect the effect of the weave tells us nothing about the speed of the OP at all. forming the weave closer to the target might negate the ability to dodge or deflect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.

The ability to dodge or deflect a weave tells us PLENTY about the speed of it. We know how fast human reflexes are. The fact that prolonged channeling battles can take place at relatively close range would suggest that the weaves are traveling no faster than combat weapons (or, at the fastest, ball sports - 150mph is about the limit of our reflexes at a few dozen yards). If the weaves COULD be moved faster, they WOULD. If they WERE faster, human reflexes would not be capable of intercepting them.

Since none of the most knowledgeable channelers in two ages have ever channeled a weave except starting from the self and traveling towards the target; and since none of them appears to be able to strike faster than a wary opponent can react, it seems a perfectly safe deduction that:

Weaves must start at the individual channeler;
Weaves have a definite or relative speed limit; AND
The speed limit of those weaves is relatively low, such that other channelers can react to them to mitigate their effects.


We can't come up with an exact number, but it's not pointless to draw the conclusions I just listed. And I don't think they're fairly debatable.

Cortar
03-11-2012, 05:48 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.

The ability to dodge or deflect a weave tells us PLENTY about the speed of it. We know how fast human reflexes are. The fact that prolonged channeling battles can take place at relatively close range would suggest that the weaves are traveling no faster than combat weapons (or, at the fastest, ball sports - 150mph is about the limit of our reflexes at a few dozen yards). If the weaves COULD be moved faster, they WOULD. If they WERE faster, human reflexes would not be capable of intercepting them.

Since none of the most knowledgeable channelers in two ages have ever channeled a weave except starting from the self and traveling towards the target; and since none of them appears to be able to strike faster than a wary opponent can react, it seems a perfectly safe deduction that:

Weaves must start at the individual channeler;
Weaves have a definite or relative speed limit; AND
The speed limit of those weaves is relatively low, such that other channelers can react to them to mitigate their effects.


We can't come up with an exact number, but it's not pointless to draw the conclusions I just listed. And I don't think they're fairly debatable.

One additional point I would like to bring up is how weaves are "handled." In fencing you don't move your arm very fast, but the tip can go extremely fast once you account for angular velocity and other math stuffs. With the OP, can you whip a weave like a whip or fencing sword to achieve much faster speeds than normal? Or they control it more like if they had an imaginary fist guiding it (does this make sense?)

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2012, 05:56 AM
Good question, and one which I think RJ deliberately left vague, so as not to make the OP too powerful in combat.

Face an opposing force of Trollocs (for instance, at the Battle of Emond's Field). Stick your right arm out to your left. Take a very thin (ie. razor sharp, or even sharper) flow of Air, half a mile long, and attach it to your right hand. Now bring your arm out to your right, in half a circle, taking the flow of Air with it. And you've now cleared about three quarter square miles of Trollocs, with the exception of those few that managed to either duck quickly enough, or to jump over your Trolloc cutter. Some Myrddraal will also have been caught in this, as well as all of their horses.
Thus, in one second, either Verin or Alanna could have killed 5,000 Trollocs.

Cortar
03-11-2012, 05:59 AM
Good question, and one which I think RJ deliberately left vague, so as not to make the OP too powerful in combat.

Face an opposing force of Trollocs (for instance, at the Battle of Emond's Field). Stick your right arm out to your left. Take a very thin (ie. razor sharp, or even sharper) flow of Air, half a mile long, and attach it to your right hand. Now bring your arm out to your right, in half a circle, taking the flow of Air with it. And you've now cleared about three quarter square miles of Trollocs, with the exception of those few that managed to either duck quickly enough, or to jump over your Trolloc cutter. Some Myrddraal will also have been caught in this, as well as all of their horses.
Thus, in one second, either Verin or Alanna could have killed 5,000 Trollocs.

Well at that range, the flows wouldn't be able to move very fast (because of the amount of torque required. Plus that far away I imagine its hard to keep the weaves to a fine enough point to cut.

Weird Harold
03-11-2012, 10:38 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no weaves that are formed remotely from the channeler. Everything it formed directly at the channeler and moved to where it is desired.

Just off-hand, I'd suggest that the member of the Keystone Koven who kills with the OP forms her killing weaves inside of her victim rather than moving the weave to/into the victim.

Also, forming a gateway to close to oneself could be hazardous to a Channeler's health; of necessity, it is a weave that must be formed at some distance.

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2012, 12:15 PM
Just beneath the ceiling, right above his head, air slowly began to revolve, spinning faster, milling in streaks of red and black and silver. It roiled and collapsed inward, boiling harder, whining as it whirled and grew smaller still.
Sweat rolled down Rand's face as he stared up at it. He had no idea what it was, only that racing flows he could not begin to count connected him to the mass. It had mass; a weight growing greater while the thing fell inward on itself. Callandor flared brighter and brighter, too brilliant to look at; he closed his eyes, and the light seemed to burn, through his eyelids. The Power raced through him, a raging torrent that threatened to carry all that was him into the spinning. He had to let go. He had to. He forced his eyes open, and it was like looking at all the thunderstorms in the world compressed to the size of a Trolloc's head. He had to... had to... had to...
So while the actual weave doesn't need to start at the channeler, that does not necessarily mean that the individual flows don't start there.
On the other hand, as he himself notes here, Rand didn't know what he was doing at this point. So your mileage may vary.

What is the mileage of an Unladen Balefire Stream (UBS)?

Cortar
03-11-2012, 02:07 PM
Just off-hand, I'd suggest that the member of the Keystone Koven who kills with the OP forms her killing weaves inside of her victim rather than moving the weave to/into the victim.

Also, forming a gateway to close to oneself could be hazardous to a Channeler's health; of necessity, it is a weave that must be formed at some distance.

If this were true then why were Nyv.. and the Sea Folk channellers "practicing" like they were? Why start the weave in front of you and send it towards the other channeller if you can just spawn in on top of them?

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 02:24 PM
One additional point I would like to bring up is how weaves are "handled." In fencing you don't move your arm very fast, but the tip can go extremely fast once you account for angular velocity and other math stuffs. With the OP, can you whip a weave like a whip or fencing sword to achieve much faster speeds than normal? Or they control it more like if they had an imaginary fist guiding it (does this make sense?)

I think the weaving analogy would suggest that they're pushed rather than pulled, which would make a whip impossible. However, it can't be absolute; since they're not actually weaving WITH anything (there's no needle, no loom, etc.), they necessarily have to be somewhat prehensile.

So while the actual weave doesn't need to start at the channeler, that does not necessarily mean that the individual flows don't start there.
On the other hand, as he himself notes here, Rand didn't know what he was doing at this point. So your mileage may vary.

What is the mileage of an Unladen Balefire Stream (UBS)?

Agreed. It's inconceivable that the weave could be formed at any distance from the channeler. I'm going to infer (though, admittedly without any evidence to support it) that the threads come out of the channeler and form the weave, but that since there's fine detail involved in weaving and it seems to be easier to weave what you can see, that most channelers don't weave far away from themselves. Or, possibly, it could even be impossible past a certain distance to form an effective weave.

Weird Harold has proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. However, I don't think there's any way that you can argue that a channeler could just make a weave appear out of nothing at some distance, or the ball of fire that took of Rand's hand would have just appeared at Semirhage's target.

The Unreasoner
03-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Weird Harold has not proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. RJ has said that the flows originate from the channeler's body, although it may appear otherwise to the channeler himself. If someone has the quote ready, please post it. I'm still getting the hang of the new database.

Tomp
03-11-2012, 03:05 PM
I think it varies. Some weaves start from the wielder and some are formed a distance from the wielder. For example a fire ball probably starts at the wielder who then "throws" it towards its intended target. On the other hand a lightning bolt, striking from above, is probably formed a distance from the wielder. Working flows at a distance is proportionally as tiresome as weaving flows a long distance.

When it comes to balefire I think it must originate from the wielder and its velocity is probably the speed of light or close to it.

This is just how I view the matter and may differ from your picture of it.

Zombie Sammael
03-11-2012, 03:13 PM
Weird Harold has not proven that weaves can form without touching the channeler. RJ has said that the flows originate from the channeler's body, although it may appear otherwise to the channeler himself. If someone has the quote ready, please post it. I'm still getting the hang of the new database.

Ta-da!


WEEK 9 QUESTION
When a person channels, where do the flows appear to originate from? Do they extrude themselves somehow from the person's body, or do they seem to appear out of thin air in the channeler's general vicinity? What do the flows look like to a person who can channel? Are they colored, clear or indeterminate, smooth or rough, wispy or solid?
ROBERT JORDAN
To the channeler, the flows seem to originate in his or her very immediate vicinity, not to emanate from themselves, although to another channeler, those flows do seem to be emanating from the channeler. The latter is the actual case, as the One Power is passing through the channeler, one of the reasons for individual limits on how much of the Power a particular person can handle. (And you have seen characters react as if to a blow from having a flow snapped or cut.)

A channeler sees the flows as colored very faintly, according to which of the Five Powers is involved (red = Fire, Blue = Water, green = Earth, yellow = Air, white = Spirit), although the "feel" of the flows are also different to a channeler, so that a channeler can tell one from another without actually seeing them. (That is how someone can tell that somebody else has channeled, say, Fire and Earth, in their vicinity without seeing the flows.) It isn't a physical feel; you might almost as well say that they have different flavors. They appear to be smooth and nearly transparent, tinged with color.

Tomp
03-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.

Zombie Sammael
03-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.

NOOOOOO! We need you for chapter six (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6645)! (or will in a bit, hopefully)

Terez
03-11-2012, 03:26 PM
NOOOOOO! We need you for chapter six (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6645)! (or will in a bit, hopefully)
Why don't you just write all of it? :)

Zombie Sammael
03-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Why don't you just write all of it? :)

Do you want me to write you a film noir fantasy novel? When's your birthday?

The Unreasoner
03-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Ta-da!
Thank you.


And Jasind better turn out to be a badass, if you want to keep calling this story 'film noir'. Anyara can be the sexual deviant sociopath.

Seth Baker
03-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Ah, I see I was wrong.

World shattered.

What to do now. Ah there's the razor blade.

The issue was that you weren't distinguishing between flows and weaves. The flows originate at the channeler; the weaves can be formed away from the body.

We've gotten a little far afield from the initial tangent though - I maintain that there MUST be effective limits to the speed that either weaves OR flows can travel (and that limit must be relatively low, no more than 150-200 mph at absolute most, and likely lower) otherwise we wouldn't see the prolonged channeling battles. Even power-enhanced, even with the ko'di, human reflexes have their limits.

Weird Harold
03-12-2012, 12:56 AM
I think it varies. Some weaves start from the wielder and some are formed a distance from the wielder. ...

This^^^

the variation is so wide that no hard conclusion can be arrived at. Some weaves are delayed action traps that can presumably still function in a timely manner even if the channeler who set them is providing the OP flow from half a world away . other weaves, i.e. fireballs, travel at the speed the channeler expects/wants them to.

The weaving of the Bowl of the Winds spread from a central point to encompass the world in less than one day and channelers apparently felt the weaving before the effects arrived. The forsaken felt the Cleansing quickly enough to respond while it was still in progress.

If the OP is limited to 200mph or less, it could not be sensed/seen the way it has been described.

Cortar
03-12-2012, 03:00 AM
This^^^

the variation is so wide that no hard conclusion can be arrived at. Some weaves are delayed action traps that can presumably still function in a timely manner even if the channeler who set them is providing the OP flow from half a world away . other weaves, i.e. fireballs, travel at the speed the channeler expects/wants them to.

The weaving of the Bowl of the Winds spread from a central point to encompass the world in less than one day and channelers apparently felt the weaving before the effects arrived. The forsaken felt the Cleansing quickly enough to respond while it was still in progress.

If the OP is limited to 200mph or less, it could not be sensed/seen the way it has been described.

You are confusing the effects of the weave, and the threads. All threads start from the channeller himself and probably travel and max, 100mph. When you want to make a fireball, you weave the threads in front of you and send the fireball out, which could travel at a faster or slower rate than the threads.

When channelling through the bowl of winds, the weave was placed on the sky around them, then it spread quickly through the rest of the world.

The cleansing was different because nobody actually felt the weaves or saw them. They only felt someone holding a lot of power, which is different.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2012, 05:29 AM
Just to muddle up things further, there's this:
And then, with a sound like a sigh, he released it. A column of pure whiteness exploded from him and burned across the silent night sky, illuminating the trees below it in a wave. It moved as quick as a snap of the fingers, striking the wall of the distant fortress. The stones came alight, as if they were breathing in the force of the energy. The entire fortress glowed, transforming into living light, an amazing, spectacular palace of unadulterated energy. It was beautiful.
Isn't it wonderful to have such a clear statement from the books themselves?

Now all we need do is find what conversion unit to use between "a snap of the fingers" and meters per second, and then we'll have the answer.

Zombie Sammael
03-12-2012, 09:02 AM
Just to muddle up things further, there's this:

Isn't it wonderful to have such a clear statement from the books themselves?

Now all we need do is find what conversion unit to use between "a snap of the fingers" and meters per second, and then we'll have the answer.

All you need to estimate that is a rough idea of the distances between the channeller and the fortress.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2012, 09:08 AM
All you need to estimate that is a rough idea of the distances between the channeller and the fortress.
Somewhere in the range from 20 to 2,000 yards distance. Does that help?

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 09:43 AM
This^^^

the variation is so wide that no hard conclusion can be arrived at. Some weaves are delayed action traps that can presumably still function in a timely manner even if the channeler who set them is providing the OP flow from half a world away . other weaves, i.e. fireballs, travel at the speed the channeler expects/wants them to.

The weaving of the Bowl of the Winds spread from a central point to encompass the world in less than one day and channelers apparently felt the weaving before the effects arrived. The forsaken felt the Cleansing quickly enough to respond while it was still in progress.

If the OP is limited to 200mph or less, it could not be sensed/seen the way it has been described.

There's a difference between feeling the effects of something or feeling that an immense amount of power is being wielded (which could be instantaneous or speed of light) and the speed of flows.

How do we know that the weaves of the Bowl of Winds encircled the world within a day? I don't see any indication of that time frame. Even if it took 24 hours to encircle the world, that would be about 500 miles per hour. I'm skeptical of that claim, however.

If flows of the OP are not limited to a low speed, please explain how it is that battles of the One Power don't simply end when one channeler drives a flow of fire through his opponent faster than the opponent can react?

RE: Natrin's Barrow... well, that's a good question. Nobody's saying that they're not moving fast - a snap of the fingers could describe a bullet train (200 mph-ish). In the Towers of Midnight prologue, Graendal has enough time after seeing Rand seize the power through the Choedan Kal to shield Delana and Aran'gar, weave a gateway, and after the balefire "was coming," to dive through the gateway.

So - yes. Fast as a snap of the fingers? Sure. But with a significant delay? That too. I'll allow that, with Saidin and Saidar enhanced reflexes, maybe channelers could react to 200-300 mph flows. Much faster than that, though, and close-range battles like Rand v. Lanfear or Nynaeve v. Moghedien would not be possible.

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 10:12 AM
All you need to estimate that is a rough idea of the distances between the channeller and the fortress.
We also need the length of a snap. Somewhere between 1/10 second to 1 second?

So with Gonzo's estimate, we can conclude that the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Balefire Stream is between 20 yards/second and 20000 yards/second. So that's 40.909 miles per hour to 40909 miles per hour, American. 18.288-18288 m/s for everyone else.

And Balefire may not be a 'weave'. It seems more like the effect of a weave. So channeling speed...may need it's own calculations.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 10:15 AM
And Balefire may not be a 'weave'. It seems more like the effect of a weave. So channeling speed...may need it's own calculations.

Interesting idea.

Grig
03-12-2012, 10:28 AM
Is there an excerpt of that discussion Brandon referenced on the deleted scene from A Crown of Swords? My interest is piqued, but I have no idea how I'd search the database for that. I tried "Crown of Swords" and "deleted", but the two hits didn't give me anything useful. I can try to search more in-depth later, but if anyone has a pointer, much appreciated!

The Unreasoner
03-12-2012, 11:11 AM
Is there an excerpt of that discussion Brandon referenced on the deleted scene from A Crown of Swords? My interest is piqued, but I have no idea how I'd search the database for that.
Seconded.

Zombie Sammael
03-12-2012, 02:27 PM
We also need the length of a snap. Somewhere between 1/10 second to 1 second?

So with Gonzo's estimate, we can conclude that the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Balefire Stream is between 20 yards/second and 20000 yards/second. So that's 40.909 miles per hour to 40909 miles per hour, American. 18.288-18288 m/s for everyone else.

And Balefire may not be a 'weave'. It seems more like the effect of a weave. So channeling speed...may need it's own calculations.

You don't the length of a snap, because you know what the speed of sound is. It took as long for the weave to reach the wall as it takes sound.

Tamyrlin
03-12-2012, 03:09 PM
Seconded.

I tried using: deleted scene and found it. Brandon used "book seven" not "crown of swords".

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 04:42 PM
You don't the length of a snap, because you know what the speed of sound is. It took as long for the weave to reach the wall as it takes sound.

...I disagree that comparing it to a "snap" means it's the speed of sound. If it were a "twinkling," would that be the speed of light?

It's nonliteral imagery, meaning "fast."

Zombie Sammael
03-12-2012, 05:21 PM
...I disagree that comparing it to a "snap" means it's the speed of sound. If it were a "twinkling," would that be the speed of light?

It's nonliteral imagery, meaning "fast."

"Snap" is an onomatopoeia describing a sound. If it were a "boom" or a "thud" or a "whistle", the sound wouldn't travel any quicker. That's my thinking. It is possible my reasoning here isn't up to my usual high standards, as I'm a little tired.

Seth Baker
03-12-2012, 06:07 PM
"Snap" is an onomatopoeia describing a sound. If it were a "boom" or a "thud" or a "whistle", the sound wouldn't travel any quicker. That's my thinking. It is possible my reasoning here isn't up to my usual high standards, as I'm a little tired.

And "twinkling" is light-related imagery, hence my disagreement.

Terez
03-13-2012, 01:23 AM
I tried using: deleted scene and found it. Brandon used "book seven" not "crown of swords".
I try to keep everything of that nature under the 'rj's notes' tag. It's not always precise, exactly.

fdsaf3
03-13-2012, 01:28 AM
1/0 kps

Makes sense. If balefire burns threads out of the Pattern, might as well divide by zero to boot.

Grig
03-13-2012, 10:34 AM
Thanks, Tamyrlin, but if you mean this part (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=476), that had already been provided here. I was looking if there were any event reports from the actual event where Sanderson slipped up and talked about the actual contents of the deleted scene that didn't make it into book seven. If you meant something else, I tried to reproduce your search and couldn't find it.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:17 AM
Thanks, Tamyrlin, but if you mean this part (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=476), that had already been provided here. I was looking if there were any event reports from the actual event where Sanderson slipped up and talked about the actual contents of the deleted scene that didn't make it into book seven. If you meant something else, I tried to reproduce your search and couldn't find it.
Seconded again.

I'm not sure there ever was a record of that event. I've been curious before and looked a few times, with nothing to show for it.

I'm pretty sure the Boss has access to some info we don't, though I doubt it can be accessed from the Database. So, either we weren't clear, or it is in the new one.

Terez has done a good job of tagging. Rj's notes only has 180 or so. Maybe one of us starts at the bottom, the other the top?

Seeker
03-13-2012, 11:19 AM
I don't think you can attackf someone with flows themselves - which is not to say that you can't channel flows into another person's body to lethal effect - but the flows themselves are not the cause of death. As I understand it, flows are analogous to lines of code in a computer program. Each line of code (flow) helps determine the overall purpose of the program (weave).

So, you can channel a weave at someone that says "increase the temperature in this person's body by 100 degrees" but it isn't the flows that kill him, it's the heat they generate.

So, even if the forming of weaves happens as fast as a channeler can conceive of them - something that I very much doubt since there is a time delay between having an idea and putting it into effect AND splitting flows is hard (meaning it takes effort and therefore time to spin a weave) - the effect of that weave likely takes a moment to generate because energy must be taken from the True Source and converted to whatever physical medium the weave specifies. So, if the weave is designed to cook Rand's organs from the inside out, he doesn't instantly flash fry. Rather his body temperature starts to rise at an accelerated rate. In those brief moments before the effect becomes fatal, he can form a counterweave to cool himself and slash his opponent's flows.

Seth Baker
03-13-2012, 12:40 PM
I don't think you can attackf someone with flows themselves - which is not to say that you can't channel flows into another person's body to lethal effect - but the flows themselves are not the cause of death. As I understand it, flows are analogous to lines of code in a computer program. Each line of code (flow) helps determine the overall purpose of the program (weave).

So, you can channel a weave at someone that says "increase the temperature in this person's body by 100 degrees" but it isn't the flows that kill him, it's the heat they generate.

So, even if the forming of weaves happens as fast as a channeler can conceive of them - something that I very much doubt since there is a time delay between having an idea and putting it into effect AND splitting flows is hard (meaning it takes effort and therefore time to spin a weave) - the effect of that weave likely takes a moment to generate because energy must be taken from the True Source and converted to whatever physical medium the weave specifies. So, if the weave is designed to cook Rand's organs from the inside out, he doesn't instantly flash fry. Rather his body temperature starts to rise at an accelerated rate. In those brief moments before the effect becomes fatal, he can form a counterweave to cool himself and slash his opponent's flows.

No. There are numerous instances where people attack with just flows. Practically every beating administered by the Power is done with FLOWS of Air. (See, e.g., Joiya's beating of Egwene; Egwene's beating of Joiya, etc.)

E: It's more like Chemistry than Computer Science. Everything can have an effect on its own; or it can be combined with other things in specific ways to have a new effect.

Terez
03-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Seconded again.

I'm not sure there ever was a record of that event. I've been curious before and looked a few times, with nothing to show for it.
He says he asked them not to speak about it.

Terez has done a good job of tagging. Rj's notes only has 180 or so. Maybe one of us starts at the bottom, the other the top?
Tags just narrow down the field, which is especially helpful when it's a short tag. For long tags, use CTRL-F.

Seeker
03-13-2012, 05:12 PM
No. There are numerous instances where people attack with just flows. Practically every beating administered by the Power is done with FLOWS of Air. (See, e.g., Joiya's beating of Egwene; Egwene's beating of Joiya, etc.)

E: It's more like Chemistry than Computer Science. Everything can have an effect on its own; or it can be combined with other things in specific ways to have a new effect.

Well, a single line of code can have an effect on its own, even in the absence of other lines. Depending on the language, you can write a program that is simply X = 3 and it is a valid program. It doesn't do very much (nothing the user can see) but it still counts. So whether you want to liken the One Power to programing or chemistry is really neither here nor there. Both metaphors are valid.

But, Egwene says that she is being beaten by "Flows of Air," I do not believe that we are supposed to take her literally.

Just for a moment, let's review what we know about flows of the power. Non-channelers cannot see them, touch them or perceive them in any way short of experiencing the effects of the weave in question. So, a non-channeler will see a fireball or feel himself being lifted by invisible hands but he won't see flows of Fire or Air. It's important to keep this in mind because I don't think Flows have any physical substance in the traditional sense of the word. They don't have mass or substance; you can't touch them in any way. They can pass through physical objects (the Tower sisters were able to maintain Rand's shield while he was in the box, meaning that the flows had to pass through the sides of the box to get to him - though this may be unique to flows of Spirit).

He had nearly killed his father. He hadn't been forced to by Semiraghe or by Lews Therin's influence. No argument. He, Rand al'Thor had tried to kill his own father. He'd drawn in the the One Power, made the weaves and nearly released them.

So, this is an important passage. First of all, it tells us that the act of forming the weave itself does not "activate" it. First you put the flows in place and then you trigger the weave. Nothing noticeable happens until you complete that final step.

An important point is that Balefire - which is what Rand had nearly used on his father - includes flows of Fire. And yet no mention is made of the room growing perceptibly warmer just from the presence of flows of Fire. No mention is ever made of something like that on any occasion where someone channels flows of Fire, even when someone makes a gateway (which is Spirit touched with Fire for men). So, this means that flows of Fire do not contain heat energy in and of themselves.

It is for this reason that I believe that flows are not physical objects but rather abstractions in the mind of the channeler. They do not have mass, substance or temperature. (I believe that RJ has said that channelers are not actually seeing flows, they've just trained themselves to think of it that way. Help me out here, quotematers).

So, when Egwene says that "Flows of Air beat her down," it is really just nomenclature for a much more complicated process that would not be easy to describe in prose. What is really happening is that her captors target spots on her body with flows of Ar and then the actual air molecules stir and strike her in the targeted spots. I don't think we're supposed to take Egwene literally.

Remember that people use figurative language all the time. When you say "I'm starving," you don't mean that you are literally in danger of dying from hunger but rather that you feel hungrier than usual.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 05:20 PM
It is for this reason that I believe that flows are not physical objects but rather abstractions in the mind of the channeler. They do not have mass, substance or temperature. (I believe that RJ has said that channelers are not actually seeing flows, they've just trained themselves to think of it that way. Help me out here, quotematers).

Is this the droids you're looking for?


WEEK 9 QUESTION
When a person channels, where do the flows appear to originate from? Do they extrude themselves somehow from the person's body, or do they seem to appear out of thin air in the channeler's general vicinity? What do the flows look like to a person who can channel? Are they colored, clear or indeterminate, smooth or rough, wispy or solid?
ROBERT JORDAN
To the channeler, the flows seem to originate in his or her very immediate vicinity, not to emanate from themselves, although to another channeler, those flows do seem to be emanating from the channeler. The latter is the actual case, as the One Power is passing through the channeler, one of the reasons for individual limits on how much of the Power a particular person can handle. (And you have seen characters react as if to a blow from having a flow snapped or cut.)

A channeler sees the flows as colored very faintly, according to which of the Five Powers is involved (red = Fire, Blue = Water, green = Earth, yellow = Air, white = Spirit), although the "feel" of the flows are also different to a channeler, so that a channeler can tell one from another without actually seeing them. (That is how someone can tell that somebody else has channeled, say, Fire and Earth, in their vicinity without seeing the flows.) It isn't a physical feel; you might almost as well say that they have different flavors. They appear to be smooth and nearly transparent, tinged with color.

(I highlighted the bit that I think is what you're after)

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:01 PM
You guys really have no short term memory, do you? (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=183087#post183087)

Terez
03-13-2012, 06:05 PM
You guys really have no short term memory, do you? (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=183087#post183087)
Try not to lump him in with the rest of us.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:12 PM
Try not to lump him in with the rest of us.
Lol. Which 'him'? The guy who posted it twice, or the guy who only read it once?

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:13 PM
Lol. Which 'him'? The guy who posted it twice, or the guy who only read it once?

The guy who posted it twice was just too polite to point it out, actually.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:15 PM
The guy who posted it twice was just too polite to point it out, actually.
It's pronounced 'British'

Tamyrlin
03-13-2012, 06:24 PM
He says he asked them not to speak about it.


Tags just narrow down the field, which is especially helpful when it's a short tag. For long tags, use CTRL-F.

Was I there when this happened? I feel like I remember Sanderson saying something like that...ah, must have been Sanderson talking about it afterward. I was in California, but not at that signing.

Seeker
03-13-2012, 06:36 PM
Is this the droids you're looking for?



(I highlighted the bit that I think is what you're after)

Actually, those weren't the droids I was looking for. A few months ago, I asked the question of how a blind person could channel given that they can't see and if they can still "see" flows, then obviously you don't see them with your eyes.

Terez posted an RJ quote that basically explained that you don't really see flows in the traditional sense of the word. Rather your sense them and your mind interprets it as seeing them.

Khoram
03-13-2012, 06:36 PM
It's pronounced 'British'

Actually, it's "Canadian". Although he is British. :rolleyes:

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:52 PM
Actually, those weren't the droids I was looking for. A few months ago, I asked the question of how a blind person could channel given that they can't see and if they can still "see" flows, then obviously you don't see them with your eyes.

Terez posted an RJ quote that basically explained that you don't really see flows in the traditional sense of the word. Rather your sense them and your mind interprets it as seeing them.
Wasn't there an Aes Sedai with a particularly troubling block where she could only embrace the Power with her eyes closed? I think the relevant quote implies that you need to see, to channel.

Seeker
03-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Yes but that might not be so much to form the flows as it is to know where to place them. You can make the weave for a gateway with your eyes closed - I think - but you might open it in the middle of a wall or so.

Obviously not all channeling is visually dependent. Healing for instance... If you're going to repair someone's ruptured spleen, you won't be able to see the damaged organ. Presumably delving tells you where to weave your flows. Obviously Nynaeve couldn't see Naeff's brain when she healed the madness.

Terez
03-13-2012, 08:45 PM
Was I there when this happened? I feel like I remember Sanderson saying something like that...ah, must have been Sanderson talking about it afterward. I was in California, but not at that signing.
I don't know, since he never specified where it happened.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:10 PM
I wonder why it was deleted. I assume whatever was in it is still canon, or else Brandon wouldn't have brought it up at all. Maybe it spoils something? And apparently for AMoL, or else why the gag order? A Taim PoV?

Terez
03-13-2012, 11:22 PM
I suspect that most deleted scenes were simply removed because he didn't want to give too much away. He might have found other ways to convey the pertinent information, etc.

For example, Brandon and I had a conversation about this concerning Rand's Fisher King dream in TEOTW. Brandon's first thought was that it was somehow Lews Therin's voice talking to him, which of course tells us a lot just because apparently Brandon thinks Lews Therin would have known all about it (though I'm not sure why Lews Therin would know the KC). Anyway, I told him that would be incredibly strange, and not only because Rand isn't having much in the way of memories at this point, but also because why would Lews Therin talk to him as Thom?

I think I was prepared to talk on that point because the scene has always bugged me, because it used to always make me think that I just couldn't find that scene where Thom told him about the Fisher King prophecy in the first place. So undoubtedly there's a scene somewhere with Thom telling Rand all this, and Rand's dream was supposed to be a portentous, foreshadowy recollection of that conversation.

In another dream, Thom also tells him about the Black Ajah, which as far as we know Rand has never heard of before at that point. I think the middle of TEOTW was rewritten a lot. You can tell by how he got all artsy with it around those two chapters where the dreams can be found (33-34).

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:35 PM
TEotW on the whole does have a pretty different feel than the other books. But Brandon's interpretation may be born from his former belief that LTT and Rand were two people, and he just never reassessed.

Terez
03-13-2012, 11:55 PM
Yeah, that's the impression I get of his way of thinking on the subject. Obviously he was converted, beginning with KOD (ironically with the Semirhage scene, which I did always say was more a ball in the construct camp than in the 'real' camp). But he hasn't reread the series a few times since then, so...

professorskar
03-14-2012, 12:14 AM
But, Egwene says that she is being beaten by "Flows of Air," I do not believe that we are supposed to take her literally.


Haven't we seen Aes Sedai try to use flows of Air on Mat and fail? I don't know if it's ever said flat-out, but there's been times where the wondergirls have tried to use the Power on him and failed, and the AS he traveled with post-Ebou Dar as well. In these situations, I always assumed they were trying to grab him with Air, it's a common harmless weave that's often used to subdue somebody.

If flows of Air don't work on Mat, I'd say then it's the flows themselves that cause the affect, as opposed to say, manipulating physical air, because if that were the case, those weaves would be indirect and thus would be able to affect Mat despite the foxhead.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 08:24 AM
Haven't we seen Aes Sedai try to use flows of Air on Mat and fail? I don't know if it's ever said flat-out, but there's been times where the wondergirls have tried to use the Power on him and failed, and the AS he traveled with post-Ebou Dar as well. In these situations, I always assumed they were trying to grab him with Air, it's a common harmless weave that's often used to subdue somebody.

If flows of Air don't work on Mat, I'd say then it's the flows themselves that cause the affect, as opposed to say, manipulating physical air, because if that were the case, those weaves would be indirect and thus would be able to affect Mat despite the foxhead.

Yeah, the dissent here appears to be between the position I described (where flows can, but don't necessarily have direct effect, depending on channeler intent); and the other side (where flows have no physical effect until woven into weaves, and these instances are explained by saying that "flow" is shorthand for "weave of all one type of flow").

Either one could be right, I don't think there's any way to determine which is right, and I don't really care about the difference that much.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Haven't we seen Aes Sedai try to use flows of Air on Mat and fail? I don't know if it's ever said flat-out, but there's been times where the wondergirls have tried to use the Power on him and failed, and the AS he traveled with post-Ebou Dar as well. In these situations, I always assumed they were trying to grab him with Air, it's a common harmless weave that's often used to subdue somebody.

If flows of Air don't work on Mat, I'd say then it's the flows themselves that cause the affect, as opposed to say, manipulating physical air, because if that were the case, those weaves would be indirect and thus would be able to affect Mat despite the foxhead.

Okay, that's a very good question. So, let's review how Mat's medallion works. I agree that the medallion disrupts flows of the power and Not the physical effects they cause but that doesn't mean that flows are physical objects.

So let's go back to my example with Egwene Suppose Elaida traps Egwene in place with a weave of Air. The weave (flows) is not comprised of the air molecules themselves. The weave is a set of instructions that tells the air molecules how to move. So, Elaida puts a weave of Air around Egwene and the air molecules respond by thickening around her body, forming a viscous membrane that restricts her movement.

Now, let's apply the weave to Mat. Elaida channels a weave of Air to capture Mat but his medallion disrupts the flows. Remember that the flows are not air molecules in and of themselves but rather they are TELLING the air molecules how to move. So, when Elaida selects Mat as her target, the weave breaks apart and there is nothing to tell the air molecules to surround him and form a barrier. Without those instructions - and the corresponding energy from the Source - nothing happens.

Now, let's discuss why the medallion gets cold.

The medallion obviously emits some kind of disruption field that causes weaves of saidar and saidin to break apart. But what fuels the disruption field? Well, when you think about it, the medallion does the opposite of what channeling does. A weave of the power takes energy from the True Source and applies it to the physical world under a specific set of conditions. Mat's medallion takes energy from the physical form - heat - and applies to the source to disrupt a weave. That's why the medallion gets cold.

But flows and weaves are not physical things. They are instructions. They are the channeler specifying how the energy from the True Source will be directed.