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Sgal83
03-13-2012, 01:55 AM
I was wondering about those wisdoms who were caught by the sul'dam. They can only channel randomly, due to their blocks.
So, how does the sul'dam deal with such damane who suffers from block?


To clarify further, I am referring to wilders.
Those women who learn to channel on their own, but who suffer from block, like how Nynaeve used to.
How does Sul'dam trained such women?

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2012, 05:17 AM
They probably beat it out of them. That's basically the sul'dam approach to any damane problem anyway, and we know that it has a fair success rate with this specific one.

Plus, considering the Seanchan attitude towards channeling, I would expect that a lot of new damane there also have blocks. Which they're then cured of, you may be happy to hear.

WinespringBrother
03-13-2012, 07:57 AM
Not to mention the fact that sul'dam have their own more well-defined blocks, of course, with their almost seeing weaves, etc.

Seth Baker
03-13-2012, 12:35 PM
Plus, considering the Seanchan attitude towards channeling, I would expect that a lot of new damane there also have blocks. Which they're then cured of, you may be happy to hear.

I kind of doubt it. You develop a block as a method of protecting yourself from the One Power if you spark unguided and go for a significant period of time. The Seanchan test all of the young women once a year - so nobody ever goes more than 364 days after sparking before being collared. Doesn't seem like enough time to build up a block.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 01:00 PM
I kind of doubt it. You develop a block as a method of protecting yourself from the One Power if you spark unguided and go for a significant period of time. The Seanchan test all of the young women once a year - so nobody ever goes more than 364 days after sparking before being collared. Doesn't seem like enough time to build up a block.
Not exactly. The blocks could develop before the fact, or at the moment of discovery.

I think they vanish, however, when the damane accepts her position. In her mind, she can channel, it is a part of her, she is dangerous...so she yields her free will to the sul'dam. She can't help but be dangerous. Which isn't true, but that she believes she is seems to be enough to have the damane simply not be capable of influencing her channeling, one way or another.

Gonzo's point is probably best seen in the captured sul'dam, or in Bethamin and Seta.

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2012, 01:09 PM
I would expect that such blocks also pop up in new damane who do not believe they channel, who instead are sure that some mistake happened.

Grig
03-13-2012, 01:09 PM
I kind of doubt it. You develop a block as a method of protecting yourself from the One Power if you spark unguided and go for a significant period of time.

This seems a bit out there. It makes sense as far as a post-hoc explanation for why blocks might arise as a protective mechanism, but I don't think we have enough information to say that that's actually why they happen. They would have a protective effect, but that doesn't mean that they arise for the purpose of protection.

To me, it always seemed more that blocks were just the logical extreme of channeler difficulty with trying to perform weaves in a manner other than the first way they did them. So for instance, since Nynaeve initially used the Power when she was angry to heal Egwene from Almost Certain Death, she needed to repeat that feeling in order to repeat the channeling performance. The same for the woman who could only channel when there was a male present, presumably as her first channeling was some variant of Compulsion against a male (I swear I'm not trying to be sexist or anything with that! It just seems like a likely explanation in context, and could have been something as small as wanting Daddy to buy her a trinket).

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Grig, your version of a block would not have stopped Nynaeve from executing all those weaves she'd learned after joining the WT, but it did. And, even more convincing than that: your version would not have prevented her from grasping the OP itself, yet her block did do that.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 01:17 PM
This seems a bit out there. It makes sense as far as a post-hoc explanation for why blocks might arise as a protective mechanism, but I don't think we have enough information to say that that's actually why they happen. They would have a protective effect, but that doesn't mean that they arise for the purpose of protection.

To me, it always seemed more that blocks were just the logical extreme of channeler difficulty with trying to perform weaves in a manner other than the first way they did them. So for instance, since Nynaeve initially used the Power when she was angry to heal Egwene from Almost Certain Death, she needed to repeat that feeling in order to repeat the channeling performance. The same for the woman who could only channel when there was a male present, presumably as her first channeling was some variant of Compulsion against a male (I swear I'm not trying to be sexist or anything with that! It just seems like a likely explanation in context, and could have been something as small as wanting Daddy to buy her a trinket).

1. It's pretty much stated in TEOTW or TGH when Moiraine* is explaining what a block is that it works exactly like The Unreasoner suggested. I will see if I can track down the quote later on (I'm working late tonight). You might respond that we shouldn't believe what an AS says just because she believes it, and that's true, but in this instance, this is an area in which the AS surely have made no small study, so I'm inclined to believe that they actually know what they're talking about here!

2. Compulsion need not be the only reason for a woman to channel with a man in the room; consider for example self-defence.

*ETA: actually, it was Verin. See below.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 05:15 PM
Seek, and I shall find:

"Your circumstances are different, child. That yiou are still alive shows you weathered the various crises, and did it on your own. I think you know how luck you are. Of every four women forced to do what you did, only one survives. Of course, wilders-" Verin grimaced. "Forgive me, but I am afraid that is what we in the White Tower often call women who, without any training, have managed some rough control - random, and barely enough to be called control, usually, like you, but still control of a sort. Wilders have difficulties, it is true. Almost always they have built up walls to keep themselves from knowing what it was they were doing, and those walls interfere with conscious control. The longer those walls have to build, the harder it is to tear them down, but if they can be demolished - well, some of the most adept sister ever have been wilders."

Grig
03-13-2012, 05:26 PM
The longer those walls have to build, the harder it is to teat them down

Heh, you said teat.

I'm also going to play the "people don't know as much as they think they know" card Jordan was so fond of. But thanks for the citation, that is good reference material. I just think it's glaring that people's blocks tend to reflect their likely first uses of the Power, even years after said first use.

I also note that the Aes Sedai reasoning for "block" has nothing to do with "protecting them from the One Power" as a personal safety thing, which was the impression I got from the post I was replying to (that line of thought also appears to have made its way into the wiki). That explanation more hinges on it more having to do with psychology than personal safety.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 05:37 PM
Heh, you said teat.

No I didn't. :confused:

I'm also going to play the "people don't know as much as they think they know" card Jordan was so fond of. But thanks for the citation, that is good reference material. I just think it's glaring that people's blocks tend to reflect their earliest uses of the Power.

I also note that the Aes Sedai reasoning for "block" has nothing to do with "protecting them from the One Power" as a personal safety thing, which was the impression I got from the post I was replying to (that line of thought also appears to have made its way into the wiki). That explanation more hinges on it more having to do with psychology than personal safety.

That's an interesting point. I think it might be implied with what we're told elsewhere - I didn't actually check the bit in TEOTW where Moiraine* does drop the dime on Nynaeve about channelling.

I also had a look into the example you were giving - it was Theodrin who couldn't channel without a man in the room, and it was compulsion. "The issue isn't if you're sexist, it's if RJ was" might become as much a refrain for me as Chekov's Prophecy.

So it looks like you're at least partially right about blocks being related to person psychology or experiences when first channelling the power. I also know from some of my research on this that blocks can manifest in a variety of different ways; for example, Fedwin could channel just fine, he just couldn't affect anything he couldn't see. Perhaps they manifest different for men than women, or perhaps it really does just depend on the person.

ETA: this little bit of love from RJ:


QUESTION
Do males with the spark also become wilders with blocks then?
ROBERT JORDAN
It depends, a woman born with the spark that doesn't get trained, she may become a wilder, she may or may not have a block, but quite often does. A man born with a spark is probably much more likely to go up and become a false Dragon, frankly, but uh, at least before the Black Tower opened up for business. But there are blocks among the men as well. We had one of the characters, one of the men who was one of the first Asha'man, one of the first to come to the Black Tower and is since deceased. He would not believe that what he channeled at, that he could affect anything he could not see. Thus he limited the range, he could not thus make a lightning bolt that hit on the other side of the hill because he could not see.
MATT HATCH
[Tape ended] Other side, Jordan discussed the Land of Madmen, that blocks in men were one of the reason the isle/continent still remains.

*I know it was Moiraine this time! Verin's not even in TEOTW!

Grig
03-13-2012, 05:52 PM
No I didn't.

I even quoted you so it would be more clear! I'm just poking fun, it was funny. Although I guess you were quoting someone else...I was going off the assumption that you were copying the chapter and mistyped.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 05:58 PM
Blocks really seem almost totally psychological. Their varied nature alone seems to confirm that.

So, the reason (trained) damane would have no blocks is because they have no real pychological issues. They surrendered their entire will to the sul'dam, conscious control is removed from the equation.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:14 PM
I even quoted you so it would be more clear! I'm just poking fun, it was funny. Although I guess you were quoting someone else...I was going off the assumption that you were copying the chapter and mistyped.

*smacks forehead* Sorry. I'm a dumbass.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:17 PM
*smacks forehead* Sorry. I'm a dumbass.
I thought you were going to go with: "No, Verin said 'teat'."

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:18 PM
I thought you were going to go with: "No, Verin said 'teat'."

Alas, I cannot rep you.

Kimon
03-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Heh, you said teat.

I'm also going to play the "people don't know as much as they think they know" card Jordan was so fond of. But thanks for the citation, that is good reference material. I just think it's glaring that people's blocks tend to reflect their likely first uses of the Power, even years after said first use.

I also note that the Aes Sedai reasoning for "block" has nothing to do with "protecting them from the One Power" as a personal safety thing, which was the impression I got from the post I was replying to (that line of thought also appears to have made its way into the wiki). That explanation more hinges on it more having to do with psychology than personal safety.

There is also the potential role that first-learned-weave may play. Take for instance Moiraine's inclination for using mundane objects (i.e. her staff, and more importantly her eavesdropping stone), which she admits really have nothing to do with the actual process, but as a consequence of the fact that before she went to the Tower she accidentally associated these types of objects with the stories she knew that in actuality referred to angreal and ter'angreal. We know that Moiraine was a wilder, and with many wilders we have hints of two types of weaves that they came with - compulsion-types and eavesdropping-types. The compulsion-types, as Verin noted tended to be suppressed to the extent that the girls had trouble even remembering what they had done, but they ignored the other type. Which of course begs the question, if Moiraine learned that weave as a wilder and in association with the stone as a focus, could she even perform that weave without the stone, or would attempting to do so almost, or even literally (depending on how much her weaves interacted with the object), require a second-learned weave restriction.