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Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 04:48 PM
Has Egwene ever met her toh to Rhuarc, Aviendha, or Melaine?

ETA: I wanted to do a little poking around before I asked this, but is there any reason to think Egwene's dreams the night after being raised may be prophetic? I got egg on my face very early on (back when I was Gnat!) because I assumed that a dream that Egwene dismissed as just a dream was just a dream, when in fact it was clearly a prophecy. Could we all be doing the same here?

Further ETA: I am not asking this to stimulate any kind of debate on Egwene's qualities as an individual, a politician, or a fictional construct.

Sarevok
03-13-2012, 05:31 PM
ETA: I wanted to do a little poking around before I asked this, but is there any reason to think Egwene's dreams the night after being raised may be prophetic? I got egg on my face very early on (back when I was Gnat!) because I assumed that a dream that Egwene dismissed as just a dream was just a dream, when in fact it was clearly a prophecy. Could we all be doing the same here?
Care to be a bit more specific about what dream you mean? I could probably remember if you actually told me what it was about, but "the one right after she was raised", doesn't really help. Especially considering she was raised twice.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 05:45 PM
Care to be a bit more specific about what dream you mean? I could probably remember if you actually told me what it was about, but "the one right after she was raised", doesn't really help. Especially considering she was raised twice.

Sorry, the first time, in LOC. I actually found the quote but couldn't be bothered to type it up (been typing since 10.30 this morning - it's now 10.30 this evening). It's chapter 36.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 05:53 PM
By the time Egwene channeled the last lamp out, she expected a sleep full of nightmares. In fact there were only two that she remembered the next morning. In one she was Amyrlin—Aes Sedai, but without taking the oaths—and everything she did led to disaster. That wakened her bolt upright, just to get away, yet she was sure it was not a dream with meaning. It was much the same as one of her experiences inside the ter’angreal where she had been tested for Accepted; as far as anyone knew, those had no connection to reality. Not to this reality. The other was the sort of foolishness she expected; she knew enough about her own dreams now to know that, even if she had to wake herself finally to escape that one as well. Sheriam had snatched the stole from her shoulders, and then everyone was laughing at her and pointing at the fool who really believed a girl of barely eighteen years could be Amyrlin. Not just the Aes Sedai, but all the Wise Ones, and Rand and Perrin and Mat, Nynaeve and Elayne, almost everyone she had ever met, while she stood there naked, desperately trying to put on an Accepted’s dress that might have fit a ten-year-old child.
Here we are. Ctrl-c, Ctrl-v

Terez
03-13-2012, 06:07 PM
Egwene often takes dreams for being 'regular' ones when they're not. Like her father's hands being bound by Whitecloaks.

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:12 PM
Egwene often takes dreams for being 'regular' ones when they're not. Like her father's hands being bound by Whitecloaks.

That's what I was getting at - I'm not seeing these dreams listed anywhere as unfulfilled prophecies, yet to me I'm not willing to risk assuming anything she dreams is just a dream any more (even the vague threat dreams Halima caused). I guess more than answering the question, I was hoping to get some different thoughts on it. Maybe I should have started a thread, sorry.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:14 PM
I'm not sure I follow. You think the dream I quoted is somehow related to her toh?

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:17 PM
I'm not sure I follow. You think the dream I quoted is somehow related to her toh?

No. Although there might be a theory in it. I found the two quotes in a OneNote file I'd entitled "WOT questions" which I'd created in my reread, and they were unanswered, so I decided to ask them here.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:20 PM
Well, if toh can cancel out toh, Egwene might be squared away. Didn't one of the WO say something like 'it is us, and the world itself, who are indebted to you' post Mesaana?

Zombie Sammael
03-13-2012, 06:22 PM
Well, if toh can cancel out toh, Egwene might be squared away. Didn't one of the WO say something like 'it is us, and the world itself, who are indebted to you' post Mesaana?

Wow. So that'd basically give Egwene carte blanche, if the entire world owes her toh.

Grig
03-13-2012, 06:32 PM
Wow. So that'd basically give Egwene carte blanche, if the entire world owes her toh.

A lot of people will be walking funny if she ever decides to collect.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Wow. So that'd basically give Egwene carte blanche, if the entire world owes her toh.
Well (aside from the fact that only the Aiel follow ji'e'toh), I'm sure a few Theorylanders would think that given everything she's (not) done, she's breaking even at best.


Now I have a question:

Can Rand see saidar weaves while he's linked? Or at least sense them? I ask because:
Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar’s own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it. He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower. There was nothing to see, no grand weaves sweeping down from the sky. The Source lay at the heart of creation. The Source was everywhere, even in Shadar Logoth. The conduit covered distance beyond his imagining, and had no length at all. It had to be a conduit, no matter its appearance. If it was not . . .
Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.

He wove saidar on its own first, not like Neald and his gateways. And he had an impession of the weave's nature. I thought he might even be able to see it, if the reason he couldn't here was because the weave existed in some other plane.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:06 PM
What the hell is this? Why was my question moved?

Terez
03-13-2012, 11:09 PM
Because it was attached to the rest of it, and I didn't feel like going to the effort to split up the post. I suspect the world won't end, so calm down. As for your question, it's undoubtedly more of a metaphorical visual for Rand. It's probably that way for saidin too, but because of the intimate relationship with that Power it's more literally visual than it is with saidar. And of course, you can only get the less literal sense of the opposite power if you're in a link. Or reading resonance, which is even more vague.

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:15 PM
Well, my question also asked about Rand possibly being able to channel saidar (as opposed to Neald). And the metaphorical visual may only not be literal because the Source doesn't have a physical existence.

Why the new thread though? this hardly seems 'especially off-topic' for the Q&A thread. I mean just look at the last two pages.

Terez
03-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Why the new thread though? this hardly seems 'especially off-topic' for the Q&A thread. I mean just look at the last two pages.
"If I explained my every action to you, I would have no time for anything else."

The Unreasoner
03-13-2012, 11:30 PM
Okay Terez Aes Sedai

I actually didn't know who moved it. But you might have more time to explain your actions if there were slightly fewer of them.

Terez
03-13-2012, 11:55 PM
See thread title.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 11:41 AM
See thread title.
The new title is margianally less offensive. And it's a near-reference to the inspiration for my name, so I will be content.

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2012, 12:48 PM
The new title is margianally less offensive. And it's a near-reference to the inspiration for my name, so I will be content.

What was the old title? Or will it make me run off crying?

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 01:03 PM
Has Egwene ever met her toh to Rhuarc, Aviendha, or Melaine?

The only one that I know of is Melaine:

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power
"Egwene," Elayne said, "have you been able to speak with the dreamwalkers yet?" "Yes," Nynaeve said. "Do they know what the problem is?" "I have." Egwene sighed. "They don't, not really." It had been an odd meeting, only a few days ago, begun by finding Bair's dreams. Bair and Melaine had met her in the Stone of Tear; Amys had said she would not teach Egwene more, and she did not come. At first, Egwene felt awkward. She could not bring herself to tell them she was Aes Sedai, much less Amyrlin, afraid they might believe it another lie. There had certainly been no difficulty with the stole appearing then. And then there was her toh to Melaine. She brought it up, thinking all the while about how many miles she had to spend in a saddle the next day, but Melaine was so full of pleasure that she was going to have daughters—she rhapsodized over Min's viewing—that she not only announced straight away that Egwene had no toh toward her, but said she was going to name one of the girls Egwene. That had been a small pleasure in a night full of futility and irritation.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 05:06 PM
I would imagine that when Rand (or any man) is working with saidar through a link, they can see the flows as easily as they can see flows of saidin.

Same for any women using the male half of the Power. Elza could see the weaves she channeled when drawing on Callandor via Narishma.

Frankly, I surprised the effect isn't permanent. But for the fact that Forsaken of different genders can't see each other's weaving, I would have said the effect WAS permanent. Once you linked a few times, you developed the ability to see flows of the other half of the Power.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 05:19 PM
Addendum.

A thought. Maybe it's because the Forsaken don't link often enough.

After you touch the True Source a few times, you begin to learn how to recognize flows. If you're a woman, you start to see the glow of saidar around other women who are holding the source. If you're a man, you gain the ability to feel other men holding saidin. Pretty soon, you can tell one flow from the another and recognize the five different types.

Maybe repeated exposure is the key.

Siuan and Leane lost the ability to see flows when they were stilled and so has Satelle Anan.

Perhaps your ability to see flows fades if you go a long time without touching the Power. So, now, if this is true it might explain how some of the channeling in the AOL worked.

In the AOL, people linked frequently. So, men would have been exposed to saidar quite a bit and women to saidin. Perhaps repeated exposure to the opposite half of the power allows you to develop the ability to see weaves of the other gender's making.

If you're a man and you link with women often enough, touch saidar often enough, you start to see weaves of saidar. But if you stop linking, if you go months without, you lose the ability to see flows of the other side of the power.

Same with women.

If this were true, it would solve a lot of the brow furrowing issues related to the Power (like how Lanfear was able to counter Rand's attacks as if she could see them. Perhaps she'd been linking with someone in the months prior. Asmodeaan maybe.)

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Addendum.

A thought. Maybe it's because the Forsaken don't link often enough.

After you touch the True Source a few times, you begin to learn how to recognize flows. If you're a woman, you start to see the glow of saidar around other women who are holding the source. If you're a man, you gain the ability to feel other men holding saidin. Pretty soon, you can tell one flow from the another and recognize the five different types.

Maybe repeated exposure is the key.

Siuan and Leane lost the ability to see flows when they were stilled and so has Satelle Anan.

Perhaps your ability to see flows fades if you go a long time without touching the Power. So, now, if this is true it might explain how some of the channeling in the AOL worked.

In the AOL, people linked frequently. So, men would have been exposed to saidar quite a bit and women to saidin. Perhaps repeated exposure to the opposite half of the power allows you to develop the ability to see weaves of the other gender's.

If you're a man and you link with women often enough, touch saidar often enough, you start to see weaves of saidar. But if you stop linking, if you go months without, you lose the ability to see flows of the other side of the power.

Same with women.

If this were true, it would solve a lot of the brow furrowing issues related to the Power (like how Lanfear was able to counter Rand's attacks as if she could see them. Perhaps she'd been linking with someone in the months prior. Asmodeaan maybe.)

Or maybe it's just similar to military strategy where you have inadequate knowledge of your enemy's moves - you set yourself up defensively to counter likely areas of attack.

I really think you're reading far too much into this. I'd say people can see flows of the opposite power AT LEAST when they're leading a circle of mixed genders; at least, they can see the ones that they're weaving.

Anything beyond that (including flows woven by others) is pure supposition.

Grig
03-14-2012, 05:41 PM
like how Lanfear was able to counter Rand's attacks as if she could see them.

The Shadow Rising
"I do not have to see a flow to unravel it, if I know what it is and where. You see, you still have much to learn. I like you like this. You were always too stiff-necked and sure of yourself for comfort.

No need to "solve" how she was able to counter it. She says straight out, and at this point she has no reason to lie. In fact, if she told Rand he could link with her and it would let him see Saidar weaves that would give her significant leverage over him, seeing how distrustful he is of Aes Sedai.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 05:56 PM
Yes, but how does she know what it is and where if she can't see it.

I get that flows of air that are binding her to the wall are obvious with a little thought. "I'm being held in place by something. It must be Air. I can feel the air touching my skin so I know where the flows will be positioned"

But how does that explain what she did in Fires of Heaven?

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 06:34 PM
I would be willing to keep an open mind with this Seeker if it wasn't for this

From The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26: The Dedicated (p 306 TOR hardcover):
Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time-the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today.
If continued linking let you have a permanent feel for the other half of the True Source, what would have been the point?

EDIT: Deleted a bit you already discussed while I was looking up the quote.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 06:51 PM
Yes, but how does she know what it is and where if she can't see it.

I get that flows of air that are binding her to the wall are obvious with a little thought. "I'm being held in place by something. It must be Air. I can feel the air touching my skin so I know where the flows will be positioned"

But how does that explain what she did in Fires of Heaven?

Experience in combat with the One Power? Your thought process seems to be, "What she did is hard, so instead I'm going to make up rules that are neither present nor implied anywhere in the books."

Seeker
03-14-2012, 07:20 PM
Experience in combat with the One Power? Your thought process seems to be, "What she did is hard, so instead I'm going to make up rules that are neither present nor implied anywhere in the books."

Ordinarily, I'd agree that that's a bad thought process but RJ reminds us time and time again that he doesn't tell us everything. On purpose.

This is not something I believe with convicition. It's just an idea I've been playing with.


If continued linking let you have a permanent feel for the other half of the True Source, what would have been the point?

That's a good question. The problem is that it remains a good question even if continued linking doesn't let you have a permanent feel for the other half of the True Source. Mierin's logic is never expanded on.

Why will a single source that both men and women can tap allow Aes Sedai to do more? What exactly will they be able to do that they couldn't do before? Heal death? Fly? Travel interstellar distances via gateway?

Practically speaking, I can't think of anything that can be done with saidin that can't be duplicated with saidar. The method might be different but the effect is the same. So, unless Mierin thinks that this new untapped source will have looser limits (allow one to do things that would be impossible with the other two)there is no tangible reason why Aes Sedai should be more powerful just from tapping a single source of the power.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 08:51 PM
Elza and Neald's cases were different. Saidin and saidar were woven simultaneously. The channeler would only use the alternate power to increase the strength of the weave.

But Rand wove saidar on its own.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Elza and Neald's cases were different. Saidin and saidar were woven simultaneously. The channeler would only use the alternate power to increase the strength of the weave.

But Rand wove saidar on its own.

Are you sure? Elza notes that "Saidin seems suited to destruction" right before making a really big fireball that destroys a hilltop. That would seem to imply that she wove saidin.

Also, Nynaeve sees two Asha'man channeling saidar via their bonded sisters outside Lord Algarin's manor. She sees them channeling Fire and notes that the explosions are bigger than she would have expected from Fire alone. But then, they'd be adding flows of saidin too. Which means that the weave they made contianed flows of both saidin and saidar.

The fact that Neald used his saidar to strengthen his weave of saidin was given to us specifically to address the gateway problem. In Knife of Dreams, Rand notes that an Asha'man and an Aes Sedai in a link can make a bigger gateway than either could alone. At first this made no sense since the saidin weave for a gateway (twisting the pattern and boring a hole) is incompatible with the saidar weave (making the two places the same). So, it becomes a case of "Well how can they make a bigger gateway if they can't combine the two weaves?"

Someone - RJ or Brandon - gave us an answer in TOM. Saidar can be used to strengthen a weave of saidin and vice versa. But that doesn't mean that there aren't weaves that specifically use both halves of the power. Nynaeve witnessed one (though she could only see the parts of the weave woven of saidar).

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 09:20 PM
As you said: the traveling weaves are different. And Neald could feel saidar. He channels saidin, makes a saidin weave, but just pushes saidar into it to strengthen it. Someone spoke of weaves as instructions, this seems to work here, in a sense. The main set of instructions are in either saidin or saidar. Everyone can channel both powers (if they're in a circle), but most people can only weave one. But they can have a raw flow pass through them.

Seeker
03-14-2012, 10:33 PM
As you said: the traveling weaves are different. And Neald could feel saidar. He channels saidin, makes a saidin weave, but just pushes saidar into it to strengthen it. Someone spoke of weaves as instructions, this seems to work here, in a sense. The main set of instructions are in either saidin or saidar. Everyone can channel both powers (if they're in a circle), but most people can only weave one. But they can have a raw flow pass through them.

See, that's where I disagree with you. I think if you're in a circle and channeling both halves of the power, you can weave either one. Or both. Any cnanneler can do it with enough training.

It's just the opposite side of the power feels foreign to you. If you're a man weaving saidar, you'll be tempted to force the flows into place and they'll wiggle out of your control. If you're a woman weaving saidin, you'll be tempted to gently guide the flows and they'll... wiggle out of your control. The result can be dangerous. But it's not a fundamental ineptitude on the part of the channeler. He or she simply needs to learn attitudes that go with the other side of the power. "No... wait.. This is saidar. I must work gently."

fionwe1987
03-14-2012, 11:42 PM
But how does that explain what she did in Fires of Heaven?
Well one obvious answer is that she knew something like Nacelle's weave that allowed her to detect Saidin weaves.

Alternatively, look at the way Rand sliced Lanfear's weave that was directed at Asmodean at the end of tSR:

Instead, he reached through the carving in his waistband; with the angreal, it was a feeble flow, a hairthin trickle compared to the other, but he was too weary to pull more. He hurled it all between the two Forsaken, hoping to distract her if nothing else.

A bar of white-hot fire ten feet tall streaked between the pair in a blur surrounded by arcing blue lightning, searing a pace-deep groove across the square, a smooth-sided gash glowing with melted earth and stone; the fiery shaft struck a green-streaked palace wall and exploded, the roar buried in the rumble of collapsing marble. On one side of the melted slash Asmodean dropped to the pavement in a shuddering heap, blood trickling from nose and ears; on the other, Lanfear staggered back as if struck, then rounded on Rand. He swayed with the effort of what he had done, and lost saidin once more.

Rand basically flung something between the source of the weave and its effect. Lanfear could similarly have been hurling a constant stream of cutting weaves between herself and Rand, not needing to know what they were.

As for weaves of the opposite power, Semirhage implies in tGS that the weave of fire and spirit she weaves for pain had to be adjusted for Saidin. She could have hardly done do without bring able to sense them in some way. And since she used it to target precise areas of the brain without a delving (same as the time she used it on Cabriana), I think its safe to say she could actually see those weaves. Plus, when Rand used the TP to break the Domination Band, she is surprised she felt nothing. Clearly, she can sense Saidin when in a link with a man.

Terez
03-15-2012, 12:29 AM
What was the old title? Or will it make me run off crying?
Eldernoobs who like to make work for mods

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2012, 04:32 AM
Suddenly, Eben felt the blood drain from his face. What he felt was impossible! The green-eyed woman frowned in surprise, and he did the only thing that he could.
"She's holding saidin" he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power.
In this case, it seems that the AS who are linked with Eben are not capable of detecting saidin. At least, not in time. Only the male channeler detects it.

Which may or may not mean anything, since we don't see when actual flows of saidin are used here.

Seeker
03-15-2012, 07:31 AM
Yeah but the idea that Daigan (who controls the link) can't detect Aran'gar's channeling could be ignorance on Eben's part. We don't know what Daigan is feeling or if she even understands what it means. She's never felt saidin before this.

Ability to see Aran"gar's flows may not be the same as the ability to sense her holding the Power. And Aran'gar might be reversing her flows in any event. So Daigan might have been able to see them under normal circumstances.

Too many variables here to draw any firm conclusions from this scene.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2012, 07:48 AM
All right, then I'll top it a bit up.
Shockingly, he rounded on her. “They need to know, Merise. They need to know!” Turning back, he ran his gaze along the benches. His eyes seemed hot. He had been dreading nothing. He had been angry, and still was. “Eben was linked with his Daigian and Beldeine, with Daigian controlling the link, so when they found themselves facing one of the Forsaken, all he could do was shout, ‘She’s channeling saidin.’ and attack her with his sword. And despite what she did to him, ruined as he was, he managed to hang on to life, hang on to saidin, long enough for Daigian to drive her off. So you remember his name! Eben Hopwil. He fought for his Aes Sedai long after he should have been dead!”
...
“It might be impossible,” the boy replied coolly, “but she did it. Daigian told us what Eben said, and she couldn’t detect anything at all even while the woman was channeling. It had to be saidin.”
So Eben was alive and hanging on to saidin while the fight was going on, but still Daigian, who controlled the link, could not detect any of Halima's flows.
That seems fairly definitive, doesn't it?

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 08:48 AM
Yes. Unless you accept his completely arbitrary assumption that you learn to see the flows after spending a lot of time linked and controlling a circle.

Seeker
03-15-2012, 09:50 AM
All right, then I'll top it a bit up.

So Eben was alive and hanging on to saidin while the fight was going on, but still Daigian, who controlled the link, could not detect any of Halima's flows.
That seems fairly definitive, doesn't it?

No, because Aran'gar could have been reversing her flows, thus precluding anyone from seeing them. We've seen Rand invert weaves of saidin so it is possible with the male half of the power.

Grig
03-15-2012, 10:01 AM
But how does that explain what she did in Fires of Heaven?

Uh, because there's no fire flying at her, she assumes he's just trying to bind and shield her. It's utterly trivial stuff. It's not hard to predict someone's actions when they refuse to harm you.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2012, 10:28 AM
No, because Aran'gar could have been reversing her flows, thus precluding anyone from seeing them. We've seen Rand invert weaves of saidin so it is possible with the male half of the power.
That does assume that inverting weaves has no cost at all. Otherwise I would expect Halima to stop doing it in the heat of the battle.

And, an added assumption: it also assumes the AS and Asha'man have never tried this as an experiment. If they had tried it (some AS linked with an Asha'man, and another Asha'man channeling) then they would have known what to expect.

Neither assumption strikes me as very likely to be accurate. But both have to pan out to make your scheme work.

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 10:31 AM
No, because Aran'gar could have been reversing her flows, thus precluding anyone from seeing them. We've seen Rand invert weaves of saidin so it is possible with the male half of the power.

E: I'm an idiot.

Grig
03-15-2012, 10:53 AM
Could have. But the AS couldn't even see the glow; Asha'man had to call it out.

Saidin users don't have a glow. However, if Halima was reversing her weaves on the fly, it makes no sense that she was not masking her ability to channel in the first place (which with saidar users prevents someone seeing their glow or feeling them holding the Source, so presumably in saidin users would prevent being able to sense them holding the Source as well). Doubly odd since it would seem simpler to mask ahead of time than to actively reverse weaves while in combat (I almost said webs....damn you Goodkind).

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 11:13 AM
Males don't have a glow. However, if Halima was reversing her weaves on the fly, it makes no sense that she was not masking her ability to channel in the first place (which with saidar users prevents someone seeing their glow or feeling them holding the Source, so presumably in saidin users would prevent being able to sense them holding the Source as well). Doubly odd since it would seem simpler to mask ahead of time than to actively reverse weaves while in combat (I almost said webs....damn you Goodkind).

Well, that's what I get for firing off a reply as I'm walking out the door. I obviously knew that.

:o

Grig
03-15-2012, 12:34 PM
And I know that Halima is not a male. Or is he/she? I removed all ambiguous references to users of certain Powers, but missed that first word until I saw your response. Curses. Fixed.

greatwolf
03-15-2012, 01:49 PM
Frankly, I surprised the effect isn't permanent. But for the fact that Forsaken of different genders can't see each other's weaving, I would have said the effect WAS permanent. Once you linked a few times, you developed the ability to see flows of the other half of the Power.


I guess people who link more often would be more likely to see the flows. Its a very good idea. Similar to the affinity suldam develop or the ability to sense shadowspawn by warders?

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 02:02 PM
It seems we have:
The Rand/Nynaeve circle
The Neald circle
The Elza circle
(there is also the alleged Semi/Rand circle, but I think it a different case. First, if it were a circle, you would always need two women. Second, the man can eventually take control. Third, it sounds far more like direct neural control/puppetry, as opposed to the emotional control of Compulsion or the relative freedom in a true circle).

I think Gonzo's quote from KoD is quite telling. While in the heat of the moment things might be confused, by KoD Narishma had linked with his AS often enough to know if it were a stupid thing to say. And I find it quite odd that some put forward the idea that people in a ring can see weaves of the opposite sex (iow, the most gender-specialized aspect of channeling), but not feel the opposite Power in others. Especially when the latter actually has some possible evidence for it (Rand and Neald could sense saidar from the circle, Nynaeve felt saidin, as did Cadsuane when she was looking for the taint).

ETA: How the hell do I take that stupid face out of this post?

Seth Baker
03-15-2012, 03:36 PM
I just think that it's bizarre to suggest that these effects might continue after the circle is finished.

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 04:12 PM
I just think that it's bizarre to suggest that these effects might continue after the circle is finished.
Yeah. And I think that if someone had experienced the alleged effects, they'd notice the absence after, and comment on it.

Seeker
03-15-2012, 07:41 PM
Okay, just for the sake of good logic, let's review the contents of the discussion thus far.

Hypothesis:
Linking with people of the opposite gender allows you to see flows of the other side of the Power.

This is not an assumption, it is a hypothesis. To be an assumption, it would have to be used as a premise in an argument that is trying to prove something else. I am not invoking this statement as a premise.

I am not even sure that's true. The truth value of the above statement has yet to be determined. It is simply a hypothesis for consideration. Nothing more.

Conditions for falsification.

To falsify the hypthesis, we will need to find a channeler who has linked extensively with members of the opposite sex and does not see flows of the other side of the Power.

The problem is we've gotten mixed up now. We're debating two separate hyptheses.

1) Linking with members of the opposite sex will allow you to see flows of the other side of the Power while you're IN THE LINK.

2) The effect may remain even after the link ends.

(1) is far, far more likely than (2).

But right now, we are in a neutral position on both. We don't know conclusively if (1) is true or false. And we don't know conclusively if (2) is true or false.

And no, don't say that we do know. That would be leaping to a conclusion. Even if you're right, we still haven't done the necessary analysis to conclude anything one way or the other.

Now, Gonzo submitted a passage where Eben Hopwil thinks to himsself that Daighan would not be able to see Aran'Gar's weaving because Aran'gar is using saidin.

Gonzo is trying to move us out of the neutral position (the position of "I don't know") into a firm (1) is false. Therefore the burden of proof falls on Gonzo and it's up to the rest of us to evaluate his evidence.

So, let's look at the two passages in conjuction.

Suddenly, Eben felt the blood drain from his face. What he felt was impossible! The green-eyed woman frowned in surprise, and he did the only thing that he could.
"She's holding saidin" he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power.

Shockingly, he rounded on her. “They need to know, Merise. They need to know!” Turning back, he ran his gaze along the benches. His eyes seemed hot. He had been dreading nothing. He had been angry, and still was. “Eben was linked with his Daigian and Beldeine, with Daigian controlling the link, so when they found themselves facing one of the Forsaken, all he could do was shout, ‘She’s channeling saidin.’ and attack her with his sword. And despite what she did to him, ruined as he was, he managed to hang on to life, hang on to saidin, long enough for Daigian to drive her off. So you remember his name! Eben Hopwil. He fought for his Aes Sedai long after he should have been dead!”
...
“It might be impossible,” the boy replied coolly, “but she did it. Daigian told us what Eben said, and she couldn’t detect anything at all even while the woman was channeling. It had to be saidin.”

So the argument goes like this.

A) Daighan was in a link with a man (Eben)
B) Daighan was unable to see flows of saidin while in the link.

Therefore.

Conclusion:
(1) is false. You can't see flows of the other side of the Power even while in a link.

The problem here is that we can't be certain that Aran'gar wasn't reversing her flows. And yes, we need to be certain for the argument to work. Even the simple possibility that she MIGHT be reversing her flows is enough to make the argument fall apart.

Gonzo is essentially saying "The reason Daighan couldn't see Aran'gar's weaving is that women can't see flows of saidin even in a link."

The problem is there may have been another reason. Aran'gar might have reversed her flows.

Note that debunking Gonzo's evidence doesn't make (1) true. It merely moves us back to the neutral position. The best we can say is "I don't know. I need more information."

Now, if you'll all bear with me. I'm about to prove (2) false.

Seeker
03-15-2012, 07:54 PM
(2) is false.

Linking with members of the opposite sex does not grant you the ability to see flows of the other half of the Power once the Link is broken.

Proof.

Rand passed through the green filled with tents and horse pickets now. He left the camp, passing the unfinished earthen bulwark. Here, pine trees continued down the gentle slope. Tucked into a stand of trees just to the right was the Traveling Ground, a square section of ground roped off to provide a safe location for gateways.

One hung in the air at that moment, an opening to another place. A small group of people was making their way through, walking out onto the pinecone-strewn ground. Rand could see the weaves that made up the gateway. This one had been crafted with saidin.

The implication being that he cannot see ones made of saidar. Now, Rand channeled saidar via the Choeden Kal, which would mean that his exposure to the female half of the Source ought to have been enough to let him see weaves of saidar if the hypothesis was true.

Therefore (2) is false.

However, there are objections (Tenuous at best). One potential objection is that the hypothesis asserts that if you go a long time without linking, you lose the ability to see flows of the other side of the Power.

The Gathering Storm takes place in late spring and it was still winter when Rand cleansed the taint. However, this objection is very very weak. M

Even if we accepted the objection as a valid reason not to declare (2) false, we would only move back to the neutral position ("I don't know"). The objection would not make (2) true.

Seeker
03-15-2012, 08:14 PM
Something interesting.

"I was just deciding what," [Verin said]. A shield, she decided. A captive Forsaken might prove very useful.

Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong.

Then she had no time for thought of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling.Verin could not see the weaves but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life...

"Cadsuane, Nynaeve, you'd better embrace the Source now," he said. "We're getting close."

"I've been holding saidar since back on the hill," Nynaeve told him. Cadsuane snorted and gave him a look that called him an idiot.

Rand stilled a grimace before it could begin. His skin felt no tingling, no goosebumps.


So, masking your ability hides the fact that you're holding the true source. Reversing your flows makes them invisible.


Therefore, to Verin, a woman with her ability masked, using reversed flows, looks indistinguishable from a woman channeling saidin.

So, if Daighan's argument is that "the dark-haired woman must have been channeling saidin because I saw nothing and felt nothing," then why isn't Verin making the same conclusion? Probably because she's a lot smarter but anyway...

Just some food for thought.

fionwe1987
03-15-2012, 09:00 PM
Something interesting.






So, masking your ability hides the fact that you're holding the true source. Reversing your flows makes them invisible.


Therefore, to Verin, a woman with her ability masked, using reversed flows, looks indistinguishable from a woman channeling saidin.

So, if Daighan's argument is that "the dark-haired woman must have been channeling saidin because I saw nothing and felt nothing," then why isn't Verin making the same conclusion? Probably because she's a lot smarter but anyway...

Just some food for thought.
Nope, that isn't a fair conclusion. When faced with a similar situation, Moghedien also assumes saidar:

The woman channeled to make a light, and Moghedien saw only the light. It had to be saidin...


She was struggling to speak, to say her name was Marigan, when suddenly she became truly aware of the light. A small glowing white ball, pale, hanging in the air near her head. With the a’dam on her, she could not do more than think of saidar without permission, but she could still feel it channeled, see the webs woven. This time she felt nothing, saw nothing. Just a tiny ball of pure light.


Both those quotes indicate that even if a woman masks her ability and reverses her flows, another woman can feel something. Verin implies it too.

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 09:06 PM
Well, Gonzo may be a bit overbold in pushing 'false', but we're all biased. Even you, you seem to want it (1) to be true, to the point of briefly entertaining the notion that its crazy offspring (2) has any real merit.

But let's take a look at some points you raised:
Therefore, to Verin, a woman with her ability masked, using reversed flows, looks indistinguishable from a woman channeling saidin.
Or any woman at all. Aran'gar is some sort of unnatural creature, a sort of Forsaken Frankenstein in the WoT universe. It would be more accurate to say that 'a woman channeling saidin looks like a woman with her ability masked using reversed flows' then the other way around. Have you ever heard of someone describing horses as unicorns without horns?

So, if Daighan's argument is that "the dark-haired woman must have been channeling saidin because I saw nothing and felt nothing," then why isn't Verin making the same conclusion? Probably because she's a lot smarter but anyway...
Daighan is actually quite intelligent, if Cadsuane can be trusted. And Daighan's argument is more accurately 'my saidin-channeling Warder tells me this woman is channeling saidin.'



A few points you overlooked for (1):

Nowhere in any book has anyone been able to see weaves of the opposite gender. Ever. The only possible exception I know of is Rand, who had a vague impression of the nature of the saidar weave.

Something this profound would undoubtedly cause comment. But never have we heard someone notice the lack after the circle breaks, or even note it at all.

I cannot imagine why it would be possible to notice weaves of the opposite gender yet not sense the Power within them (which is how Aran'gar was detected).

Less compelling, but still worth noting, is Aran'gar. Why reverse her webs but not mask her Power?

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 09:32 PM
After I logged out, I saw fionwe's post on Moghedien, and I think it needs to be addressed:

It's a fair point, but Moghedien had her own ability masked at the time, and not one of the few hundred sisters around noticed anything. I sort of doubt that the passive ability to sense masked potentials exists. There may be an active means though (a variant of a resonance weave, a ter'angreal).

The candidates for Aran'gar's actions in Moghedien's mind should have been:

-The True Power
-Reversed weaves w/ a masked ability
-A transvestite effeminate male channeler (possibly using Illusion as well)
-And of course, the true explanation

It's possible that Moghedien simply assumed Aran'gar was a Third-Ager, and that the first two were impossible for one. Also possible is the thought that Moghedien may have had access to the TP at this point (pre-anointing) and therefore (like Graendal) would have at least the ability to see the weaves, even if she could not channel enough of the TP to free herself.

fionwe1987
03-15-2012, 11:08 PM
After I logged out, I saw fionwe's post on Moghedien, and I think it needs to be addressed:

It's a fair point, but Moghedien had her own ability masked at the time, and not one of the few hundred sisters around noticed anything. I sort of doubt that the passive ability to sense masked potentials exists. There may be an active means though (a variant of a resonance weave, a ter'angreal).

The candidates for Aran'gar's actions in Moghedien's mind should have been:

-The True Power
-Reversed weaves w/ a masked ability
-A transvestite effeminate male channeler (possibly using Illusion as well)
-And of course, the true explanation

It's possible that Moghedien simply assumed Aran'gar was a Third-Ager, and that the first two were impossible for one. Also possible is the thought that Moghedien may have had access to the TP at this point (pre-anointing) and therefore (like Graendal) would have at least the ability to see the weaves, even if she could not channel enough of the TP to free herself.
I don't know if there's a point to responding to you, since you've joined the league of those who stuff their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to arguments that they don't like and can't defeat, but here goes...

Moghedien does consider the TP but rejects it. She never considers the possibility of a masked woman at all. Now, we can argue that Moghedien and Daigian are absolute idiots whereas Verin is super intelligent, but that doesn't quite add up to me.

Then there's this:

Then she had no time for thought of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling. Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life, and she had come too far to die here.


She can't see the weaves, but she knows when Graendal began channeling?

For myself, I think all this indicates that there is a way to sense masked channelers when they channel, even if the flows are reversed. You can't see the glow or the weaves, but you can sense that someone has channeled. However, if the masked woman is merely holding a web she has already spun, then you feel nothing.

Someone asked why Aran'gar would reverse her web but not hide her ability. Demandred does the same thing during the Cleansing. Perhaps men can't hide their ability? Since no one can sense potential in them anyway, and since their channeling its already harder to detect than the women's, maybe no one came up with the weave, ever.

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 12:34 AM
Well reasoned, Unreasoner.

Nazbaque
03-16-2012, 07:55 AM
Just to bring the topic back to linking before we move on to something else.

As I see it the possibilities are these:

1) When a circle includes men all members can see both saidin and saidar unless masking and reversing take place. The Eben Hopwill incident could be explained with the assumption that Aran'gar fumbled with the technique just enough to give herself away to Eben.

2) When a circle includes men only the leader can see both halves of the True Source. The Eben Hopwill incident can still be explained the same way, but we could also assume that Daigian wasn't drawing saidin heavily enough to gain the ability to see it as well as saidar.

3) When a circle includes men the ability to see the other half of the True Source is limited to what the circle itself is doing and perhaps only the leader gains even that much.

4) When a circle includes men no-one not even the leader gains the ability to actually see the other half of the True Source, but as the other half flows through he/she can sense where the flows are and what they are in a manner that is more like touching than seeing.

It is also possible that the leader's sex makes a difference in this and also the amount of saidin/saidar drawn as well as what it is used for, but I saw these four as the main possibilities and all the variables might be considered as ways to upgrade a circle's abilities so that more than one of the four possibilities are true at the same time. For example number 4 might be the normal state of a circle, but if the leader draws enough of the opposite half of the True Source the circle upgrades to number 3.

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 08:50 AM
I'm a firm adherent to 4. I don't think there's a reason to think Aran'gar screwed up; Eben detected something that Daigian didn't, but Rand was able to get an impression of Saidar when using it.

There's an additional possibility that the ability to sense the opposite Power is different between women and men. I don't support that idea, but it's an additional possibility - given that the two circles we're considering are led by different genders.

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2012, 08:53 AM
There's an additional possibility that the ability to sense the opposite Power is different between women and men. I don't support that idea, but it's an additional possibility - given that the two circles we're considering are led by different genders.
The only thing which might suggest that is that men can sense it when women channel, but women can't sense when men channel. Would that really be sufficient to suggest such a difference? :p

Seth Baker
03-16-2012, 09:09 AM
The only thing which might suggest that is that men can sense it when women channel, but women can't sense when men channel. Would that really be sufficient to suggest such a difference? :p

Not sufficient to prove it, just to offer it as a possibility, if we're making a comprehensive list.

Seeker
03-18-2012, 12:12 PM
Well, Gonzo may be a bit overbold in pushing 'false', but we're all biased. Even you, you seem to want it (1) to be true, to the point of briefly entertaining the notion that its crazy offspring (2) has any real merit.

But let's take a look at some points you raised:

Or any woman at all. Aran'gar is some sort of unnatural creature, a sort of Forsaken Frankenstein in the WoT universe. It would be more accurate to say that 'a woman channeling saidin looks like a woman with her ability masked using reversed flows' then the other way around. Have you ever heard of someone describing horses as unicorns without horns?


Daighan is actually quite intelligent, if Cadsuane can be trusted. And Daighan's argument is more accurately 'my saidin-channeling Warder tells me this woman is channeling saidin.'



A few points you overlooked for (1):

Nowhere in any book has anyone been able to see weaves of the opposite gender. Ever. The only possible exception I know of is Rand, who had a vague impression of the nature of the saidar weave.

Something this profound would undoubtedly cause comment. But never have we heard someone notice the lack after the circle breaks, or even note it at all.

I cannot imagine why it would be possible to notice weaves of the opposite gender yet not sense the Power within them (which is how Aran'gar was detected).

Less compelling, but still worth noting, is Aran'gar. Why reverse her webs but not mask her Power?


Okay, so why do I want (1) to be true. I will admit that I would prefer it if characters could see flows of the other side of the Power while in a link with members of the opposite sex. But why? Well, the answer to this is that I expect the authors I like to remember things they've said in previous books and to not contradict themselves. Brandon talked about this in a blog post that he called Sanderson's first rule. That rule goes as follows:

"A character's ability to use magic to solve a problem is directly related to how well the audience understands the magic in question."

If you start changing the rules of your magic system five books into a series - or add new powers that we've never seen before - it starts to look as if you're pulling ideas out of thin air and it borders on deus ex machina. But more to the point, when you make new rules to a magic system, they can't contradict the rules that you have already established.

So, let's look at some of the things that Rj has told us about channeling.

"A woman cannot teach a man to channel any more than a fish can teach a bird to swim."

Okay, so this establishes saidin and saidar as two entirely separate things. The methodologies of one are entirely inapplicable to the other. Okay, fair enough. No problem so far.

"The greatest works of the Age of Legends were accomplished by men and women working together with the One Power."


Okay, sounds good. But how does that work with what we already know about channeling? Well, if men and women are going to work together, there has to be a method for synchronizing their efforts.

Rj gave us the link.

Okay, that works. But now we have

"Only one person can lead a circle at any given time."

Okay, well the person leading the circle will either be male or female and thus only thoroughly knowledgeable in one side of the Power. But if men and women are going to work together, then whoever is leading the circle will have to work with both sides of the Power or else what's the point of working together? If they're going to make a weave of strictly saidar, then why bother including men in the link? If just saidin, then why bother linking at all? If raw power is an issue, then simply give the man a sa'angreal and let him do whatever he needs to do.

No, the only point to a link that includes both men and women is to craft weaves that include threads of both saidin and saidar. Otherwise the link serves no purpose. So, this brings us back to our original problem Whoever leads the link will have to work with both sides of the Power. So, the only logical conclusion here is that it must be possible for man to learn how to weave saidar and for a woman to learn how to weave saidin

They were linked. Nynaeve could tell from the way the flows of saidar moved, stiffly, as though they were being forced into place. Or rather the men were trying to force them. That never worked with the female half of the Power. It was pure Fire and the blazes were ferocious, fiercer than she would have expected from Fire alone. But of course they would be using saidin as well.

Okay, so tell me, how is it that the men can channel flows of saidar - however crudely - if they can't see them? It makes no sense to conclude they can't see their own weaves.

But, now, let's take it a step further. Suppose Nynaeve goes out there and starts blowing up trollocs as well. The Asha'man are still linked to their Aes Sedai... So, why wouldn't they be able to see Nynaeve's weaves? It's all the same substance. It's all saidar. So, if we conclude that the Asha'man can see weaves of saidar that they channel via a link - and concluding oterwise results in a contradiction so big it makes my head hurt - why wouldn't they also be able to see weaves of saidar channeled by someone else?

GonzoTheGreat
03-18-2012, 12:28 PM
It may be that if a man is leading the circle, then saidar just more or less automatically fits in with what he's doing. And same with a woman leading a circle with one or more men in it, for her 'shaping' saidar is needed, and saidin will then supplement that.
Then, when a channeler has done this often enough, he or she can get a knack for it, an ability to direct the opposite type of Power more accurately to what is wanted than would happen automatically.

That actually fits in with what happened when Perrin's hammer was made: none of the channnelers really knew what they were doing then, so they couldn't have directed it deliberately.
It also fits Semirhage's problem of making saidin do as she wanted when she had Rand leashed: she had to do it all based on memory and guesswork.

The Unreasoner
03-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Unwoven, raw Power may function very similarly to stem cells. Which both makes some sense and is the best possible scenario for my original hypothesis.

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 02:49 PM
I agree with his reasoning, but not his conclusion. If the flows looked forced and stiff, it's because the men were weaving them directly; the Power wasn't magically filling in the gaps.

When Moiraine (et. al.) said that a woman can't teach a man to channel, it would have been more accurate to say that no LIVING woman could teach a man to channel, since they had never handled Saidin either. The link functions to protect the passive channeler from overdrawing the power. Presumably, this should make it safe for a man to learn Saidar from testing in a circle (or a woman to learn Saidin). The passive member can't draw enough to hurt him- or herself, and the leader of the circle should only be subject to injury from his or her own side of the power only.

However, since Aes Sedai don't frequently link with channeling men to experiment, Moiraine probably didn't know that.

Now, I agree that, in order to weave the opposite-gender Power in a circle, the leader must at least get some impression of the opposite power. However, it's not a given that the impression is visual, or of a similar nature to the way one's own side of the Power looks. It could be faint, or a non-visual impression, or intuitive, or tactile.

And I very much doubt that that impression would survive the discontinuation of the circle. I see no reason whatsoever to believe that it would.

Zombie Sammael
03-18-2012, 02:51 PM
On a related topic, if a woman linked with a man channelling tainted saidin frequently enough, would she took succumb to the taint? The answer to this question may lead us towards a better understanding of how the power interacts between genders, thus answering some of the other questions in this thread.

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 03:51 PM
On a related topic, if a woman linked with a man channelling tainted saidin frequently enough, would she took succumb to the taint? The answer to this question may lead us towards a better understanding of how the power interacts between genders, thus answering some of the other questions in this thread.

In that case, I'd answer that the taint still attaches to the man - he's the conduit through which the power is traveling.

We know that buffers exist in circles, like in unflawed sa'angreal. And Callandor, without the buffer, is the only one that magnifies the taint. So it would stand to reason that when a man uses an angreal, he's getting the taint from his own strength, but not from the strength added by the angreal.

In a circle, led by a woman and containing a man, the strength added by the man should not taint the woman, since he's functioning like a properly buffered angreal. When the circle is formed, it is formed by the leader seizing the power through another channeler like one would seize the power through an angreal. So, instead, the taint would attach to him, since he's the conduit it's passing through.

However, I don't see how this helps us with figuring out the visibility of weaves. The taint comes into effect when someone is drawing on the Power, not when they're weaving flows (which is what we're questioning - can you see opposite-gender flows when you're weaving them?

Zombie Sammael
03-18-2012, 05:38 PM
In that case, I'd answer that the taint still attaches to the man - he's the conduit through which the power is traveling.

We know that buffers exist in circles, like in unflawed sa'angreal. And Callandor, without the buffer, is the only one that magnifies the taint. So it would stand to reason that when a man uses an angreal, he's getting the taint from his own strength, but not from the strength added by the angreal.

In a circle, led by a woman and containing a man, the strength added by the man should not taint the woman, since he's functioning like a properly buffered angreal. When the circle is formed, it is formed by the leader seizing the power through another channeler like one would seize the power through an angreal. So, instead, the taint would attach to him, since he's the conduit it's passing through.

However, I don't see how this helps us with figuring out the visibility of weaves. The taint comes into effect when someone is drawing on the Power, not when they're weaving flows (which is what we're questioning - can you see opposite-gender flows when you're weaving them?

Cadsuane said that Callandor lacked the buffer that makes ordinary sa'angreal safe to use and it magnified the taint:

"It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind."

They're two separate phenomena, so there's not necessarily any reason to think that just because a circle is also buffered, the woman has protection from the taint. A lot of people assume she is talking about the same thing (which has always bugged the hell out of me), but she quite clearly is not - lack of a buffer and taint magnification are two distinct problems with using callandor. Magnification of the taint might be a problem caused by all male sa'angreal, but only documented in relation to Callandor. As far as I'm aware, Rand (or any other taint-affect male) never really comments on the taint when using angreal, so there's not really any way of knowing. As for the buffer, I had always assumed it prevented the channeller from burning themselves out while using it, as I can't imagine what "safe to use" would mean otherwise. Presumably that means ordinary *angreal have both a maximum limit and a buffer which prevents the user drawing too much, whereas callandor has only the former.

Anyway, if a woman could be touched by the taint, it would at least demonstrate that phenomena that are meant to only affect males can affect females, and presumably vice versa. This would mean that it is at least possible that men in circles could see weaves of saidar. It is a thought that might give us a clue.

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 06:23 PM
That wouldn't make any sense. If it did, Rand would have been pretty much instantly insane after starting to use the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean, let alone at the Cleansing.

Callandor is the only sa'angreal mentioned to magnify the taint. In the same breath as talking about it being unbuffered. They're separate issues, but they're related flaws.

Seeker
03-18-2012, 06:38 PM
Now, I agree that, in order to weave the opposite-gender Power in a circle, the leader must at least get some impression of the opposite power. However, it's not a given that the impression is visual, or of a similar nature to the way one's own side of the Power looks.

Why wouldn't it?

It could be faint, or a non-visual impression, or intuitive, or tactile.

Let's have a look at Rand's POV during the cleansing.

Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar’s own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it. He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower.

That seems pretty specific to me. He seems very much aware of how the weave of saidar is forming. I think we can safely say that he can see the flows.

Seeker
03-18-2012, 06:50 PM
Okay, Unreasoner, I've been meaning to answer this one for you for a while, but I've been a tad busy these last couple days. So, please forgive the lateness of my reply.


I cannot imagine why it would be possible to notice weaves of the opposite gender yet not sense the Power within them (which is how Aran'gar was detected).


A couple months ago, I read this on the Wheel of Time Wiki.

Men feel women holding the Source as a tingling on their skin, like goosebumps.[1] They can also sense when another man is holding the Power though not in the way women do: a man would describe it as a feeling of awe and menace.

Now, you may recall that I said in an earlier post that Daighan might not have recognized what she was feeling for what it was. So, the fact that she says she felt nothing doesn't mean she actually felt nothing.

By that, I mean this: if semsing a man holding the Power is best described as a feeling of "awe and menace" and Daighan experienced that for the first time while facing a Forsaken, then she may have attributed those feelings to the fact that she was looking at one of the most feared people of all times.

"She[Aran'gar] is a forsaken, of course I'm going to feel awe and menace from her." Daighan may not have recognized those feelings as an indication of male channeling. That (and the fact that Aran'gar might reverse her weaves) is why there are too many variables in this scene to use it as a basis for how links work.

Well, that and the fact that the only perspective we get is Eben's and - not to insult him - but what does he know? His experience with channeling isn't very extensive.

Zombie Sammael
03-18-2012, 06:52 PM
That wouldn't make any sense. If it did, Rand would have been pretty much instantly insane after starting to use the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean, let alone at the Cleansing.

Callandor is the only sa'angreal mentioned to magnify the taint. In the same breath as talking about it being unbuffered. They're separate issues, but they're related flaws.

No, they're not related at all. Why build sa'angreal with buffers that prevent the taint from being magnified long before there even is a taint to magnify? Besides which, Cadsuane mentions that the effect of callandor's taint magnification is to induce wildness of the mind - not to instantly turn channellers insane or to make the wasting sickness come on sooner. It's possible - even likely - that the effect was temporary, since the taint was proven to be finite at SL (just as the Power itself is). How otherwise would it be magnified?

Seth Baker
03-18-2012, 07:14 PM
Why wouldn't it?

Why would it?

Let's have a look at Rand's POV during the cleansing.



That seems pretty specific to me. He seems very much aware of how the weave of saidar is forming. I think we can safely say that he can see the flows.

He's aware of it. However, that could be tactile awareness or a general impression as much as a sharp visual image.

I agree that the leader of a circle can probably see what he's doing, but I want to point out that I don't think it's necessarily true or proven.

No, they're not related at all. Why build sa'angreal with buffers that prevent the taint from being magnified long before there even is a taint to magnify? Besides which, Cadsuane mentions that the effect of callandor's taint magnification is to induce wildness of the mind - not to instantly turn channellers insane or to make the wasting sickness come on sooner. It's possible - even likely - that the effect was temporary, since the taint was proven to be finite at SL (just as the Power itself is). How otherwise would it be magnified?

Of course they're related. They weren't intentional, of course. Callandor is the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint. Rand's experience with the Choedan Kal CLEARLY shows that. He didn't experience the madness and euphoria with the CK that he did with Callandor. Everything points to the lack of the buffer both allowing the wielder of Callandor to overdraw and to it allowing the taint to be magnified. Cadsuane mentions them in the same breath.

However could that work? Based upon the similarity between drawing through an angreal and a circle, and the similar effectiveness of a buffer, I am forced to conclude that an angreal is modeled after a circle.

Because the only unbuffered angreal or sa'angreal is the only angreal or sa'angreal that magnifies the taint, I think it's quite likely that the taint is absorbed by the man drawing on Saidin, and NOT by the woman leading his circle.

Seeker
03-18-2012, 07:43 PM
Why would it?

Consistency in the magic system, consistency of methodology, of the basic rules. I understand that Rand is not seeing flows of saidin with his eyes. But nevertheless, they appear in his field of vision. He has to see them to channel them. That's the rule.

Having him not see flows of saidar while channeling them via a link would be going against the established rule. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine.



He's aware of it. However, that could be tactile awareness or a general impression as much as a sharp visual image.

Yes, once again, flows of the Power aren't things that you see with your eyes. It's more a case of your brain interpreting something metaphysical - the Power - as visual data. But find me one sentence in the paragraph I quoted that suggests that Rand's brain is interpreting the weave of saidar differently than it would interpret weaves of saidin.

And what do you mean by "tactile?" What, is he running his fingers along the flows? Because that's what tactile means. Which brings us back to a point from another thread that flows aren't actually there for you to touch. Everything in that paragraph suggests that the only difference between channeling saidin and channeling saidar is that with the latter, Rand must work gently and try not to force it. Other than that, the experience of channeling in a link seems identical to channeling on his own. Which means that yes, he can see the flows.

Nazbaque
03-18-2012, 10:38 PM
Consistency in the magic system, consistency of methodology, of the basic rules. I understand that Rand is not seeing flows of saidin with his eyes. But nevertheless, they appear in his field of vision. He has to see them to channel them. That's the rule.

In fact it is not the rule.

Rand nodded coldly. It had limits, then. There were always limits and rules, and he did not know them here. But he knew the Power, as much as Asmodean had taught him and he had taught himself, and saidin was still in him, all the sweetness of life, all the corruption of death. Rahvin had to have seen him to attack. With the Power you had to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it was in relation to you down to a hair. Perhaps it was different here, but he did not think so. He almost wished Lews Therin had not gone silent again. The man might know this place and its rules.
Now how could one channel at something that he doesn't see (while knowing exactly where it is down to the smallest detail) if he has to see what he channels?

Zombie Sammael
03-19-2012, 05:29 AM
Of course they're related. They weren't intentional, of course. Callandor is the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint. Rand's experience with the Choedan Kal CLEARLY shows that. He didn't experience the madness and euphoria with the CK that he did with Callandor. Everything points to the lack of the buffer both allowing the wielder of Callandor to overdraw and to it allowing the taint to be magnified. Cadsuane mentions them in the same breath.

However could that work? Based upon the similarity between drawing through an angreal and a circle, and the similar effectiveness of a buffer, I am forced to conclude that an angreal is modeled after a circle.

Because the only unbuffered angreal or sa'angreal is the only angreal or sa'angreal that magnifies the taint, I think it's quite likely that the taint is absorbed by the man drawing on Saidin, and NOT by the woman leading his circle.

You keep saying that Cadsuane mentioned them in the same breath as if that proves something, yet it really doesn't. The only deep meaning inherent in Cadsuane's statement is that callandor is dangerous to use, and here are two reasons why. In fact, the language used - a full stop followed by a coordinating conjunction - suggests that they are not related. If I say I like ice cream and I like cheese in the same breath, all that means is that they're both foods I like, not that they're at all related, or even that I like them both because they're dairy products. The same thing applies here. I also disagree with your conclusion that callandor is necessarily the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint; it's more correct to say it's the only sa'angreal Rand has used for an extended time such to experience that effect; also that callandor is incredibly powerful, and that power may amplify the magnification effect. Remember, Cadsuane had conducted a study of Callandor rather than male *angreal in general; there's no reason to assume she had any particular knowledge of male *angreal as a wider topic.

However, I do agree with your conclusions as to how *angreal work or are made. I'm not sure that necessarily flows into what you are thinking about circles, though. What we know of callandor's construction, both from the books and interviews, suggests that placing the buffer in other angreal was a deliberate act.

Seth Baker
03-19-2012, 08:51 AM
The only sa'angreal that Rand used for a significant period of time? And strength of Callandor may magnify the taint? Didn't you read the end of Winter's Heart?

They left Far Madding at just after dawn, channeled with the Choedan Kal all day, and only finished 2 hours before dusk. Even in winter, that's something like 8 hours, minimum.

There's absolutely no evidence that any other angreal magnifies the taint. There's also no evidence that any other angreal is flawed, lacking a buffer.

The buffer is the function in a circle that protects the passive users from being burned out; in an angreal, it protects the user from overdrawing.

I agree that placing the buffer in other angreal was a deliberate act. The ones made before the taint were buffered so that the user could not overdraw. I just think that, based upon what we know of Callandor as compared to the Choedan Kal and Rand's other male angreal (and I maintain that it's true that Callandor is the only one that magnified the taint), that buffered angreal also prevent magnification of the taint.

Callandor was made unbuffered for a reason. It just so happens that this results in taint magnification. The Choedan Kal were buffered, and the taint did not magnify. The sheer immensity of the amount of Power channeled suggests to me that if Rand went loopy and started lobbing lightning at his friends and shouting, "I'M KING OF THE WORLD" after a few minutes with Callandor, that the taint drawn from the Choedan Kal, if magnified, would have driven him instantly mad. Instead, he goes the full 8+ hours of channeling with no adverse reaction, except for his pure exhaustion.

Oden
03-20-2012, 02:05 PM
I have a few things I want to point out. The first one is how Rand works with the power while linked with Nynaeve.

Originally Posted by Seeker
And what do you mean by "tactile?" What, is he running his fingers along the flows? Because that's what tactile means... ...Rand must work gently and try not to force it.

I see the use of the word tactile here as a way of describing the metaphysical touch that is necessary to channel the power. I mean, you have to touch the OP in some way to make it do anything.

As Nazbaque pointed out: with the Power you have to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it is in relation to you down to a hair.
You need not see what you are doing in order to do it, not even when painting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLYYPnx9Cic).

If you don't need to see to where you are channelling but you can still affect it, why does Rand have to see the Saidar in order to notice that "the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower."? You can feel what a flower looks like, you don't need to know which colours it has.
(my oppinoin is that Rand does not see Saidar when channelling it)


The second thing is the buffering of *angreals.
I agree with you, Zombie, that Cadsuane says that the lack of buffer and the magnifying of the taint are two separate things.
I believe, however, that a side effect of the buffer is that the taint does not magnify.

To make it easier to understand what I am trying to say below, I'm first stating how I think channelling works.
Step 1: Prepare to open up for the power, i.e. pictuering a flowering rose bud or the flame and the void.
Step 2: Absorb the OP, i.e. let it flow into you and enjoy it's drug-like effect.
Step 3: Prepare the weaves, steer the strings of OP and keep them in store.
Step 4: Channel. Let lose those prepared weaves and "let them fall in place" (as Elayne describes it). Give the weaves power and effect.

Now on to the rest.
The place where the OP is, I picture as an ocean with a distinct, yet flexible separating wall betwixt Saidin and Saidar. The bottom of the ocean is where channellers can open a hole by pressing through their "tubes", through which the OP can flow into the channeller. The tubes are really tight in the beginning so channellers expands the their tubes to make OP flow into them, and then they adjust the wideness to allow more or less OP through. The tubes' bottoms have a static width, the limit for the amount of OP the channellers can draw at one point¤. Normally, the bottom is wider than the rest of the tube, but when channelling at their brink, channellers are pressing that opening wider. This is what hurts when trying to channel more than what they are able to.
After having flowed through the tubes, the OP resides somewhere, in some kind of container (conncected to the channellers' bodies), before being weaved and used¤¤.
The *angreal are thicker tubes that are positioned just by the bottom of the ocean. When channellers are using *angreal with buffers, they use the thicker tubes of the *angreal instead of their own. The buffer makes sure that the openings at the bottoms and the tops of the *angreal canals (not using the word tubes here) are not too wide for the channellers to make use of the power.

I think that the taint lies at the bottom of the ocean half that is Saidin, a muddy and slimy thing that comes through the tubes together with Saidin.

Here's an image showing how I picture that the extraction of tainted Saidin works while channelling alone or by using a buffered *angreal: http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/399064_2497192607497_1783345819_1512880_722823808_ n.jpg
Gray is the bottom of the ocean, brown is taint and pink is Saidin. The taint does not hinder the presence of Saidin (there is a lot of white, empty space in "free" Saidin)

Why I included the tops of *angreal in the buffer effect and why the picture above is not for unbuffered *angreal is because I believe that the picture for unbuffered would look like this:http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306614_2497193687524_1783345819_1512881_451141345_ n.jpg
Without the buffer to tighten the top, the *angreal works as a funnel for the taint while you still get as much Saidin as you would when using a buffered *angreal, provided that you do not pull more OP than you are supposed to.
I made the bottoms of the tubes the same size in the two pictures to illustrate the difference in recieved taint.

An unbuffered bottom would get bigger as long as the channeller tries to make it bigger. I do not know how a buffered bottom works. It should relate to the containing capacity. However, I have no idea how the containing capacity of a lone channeller and that of a channeller boosted by *angreal relates to each other more than that a boosted channeller should have a greater capacity in order to be able to weave instead of just taking in OP and sending it on in it's raw form, sort of like Rand did in tDR
The Dragon Reborn
Chapter 5, Nightmares walking. Rand talking to Perrin after the trolloc attack.
"Saidin filled me till I thought I'd explode like fireworks. I had to channel it somewhere, get rid of it before it burned me up..."

¤ and ¤¤
I think that the tubes of the channellers are a thing of the soul while the working of the tubes are a thing of the body. As is the containing capacity. See the following qoutes:

ROBERT JORDAN
I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.
(suggesting to me that the tubes are a thing of the soul, i.e. the possibility to tap into the OP)

ROBERT JORDAN
For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.
(suggesting to me that making use of that possibility is based on genetics)

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)
Ability to channel/souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

(strongly suggesting that the static bottom of the tube is a matter of having good genes)


My third thing of interest is directed at Unreasoner
Originally posted by Unreasoner
It's possible that Moghedien simply assumed Aran'gar was a Third-Ager, and that the first two were impossible for one. Also possible is the thought that Moghedien may have had access to the TP at this point (pre-anointing) and therefore (like Graendal) would have at least the ability to see the weaves, even if she could not channel enough of the TP to free herself.

It has been stated several times that it is not possible for anyone to see someone else using the TP. Has the rules changed or are you ignoring these statements?

Quotes regarding seeing TP:
MONKEYMAN
Nobody who can channel saidin or saidar can sense the True Power. And, since the Forsaken don't seem to notice Moridin channeling the True Power, is it detectable at all (besides by a gholam)? That is, can someone already holding the True Power sense another using it?
ROBERT JORDAN
No. Not by any method we've seen yet.

THOMAS HOWARD
What was the deal with that sentence concerning True Power detectability?
ROBERT JORDAN
His answer was that the True Power is only detectable by the "single person" wielding it, and it cannot be seen by others, as the One Power can.

(bunch of questions)...QUESTION
And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

A fourth point, I almost forgot

Originally posted by Seth Baker
They left Far Madding at just after dawn, channeled with the Choedan Kal all day, and only finished 2 hours before dusk. Even in winter, that's something like 8 hours, minimum.

I wonder how close to the equator you live. Do you even have four seasons? In the dark of winter, 2 hours before dusk is half an hour before dawn where I live. How could you have "something like 8 hours, minimum". We do know that he channelled for hours from all the other POVs in the following book. What I can't get my head around is how it can be 10+ hours of sunlight a winter day. It was just last week that we had more than 10 hours of sunlight and that's because summer is almost here.