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Tollingtoy
03-13-2012, 09:53 PM
During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Seth Baker
03-13-2012, 10:00 PM
During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The only entrances we know to Finnland are in Tear, Rhuidean, and at the Tower of Ghenjei. So no, she didn't go there. I think it's hinted at that she might have been guided to learning Balefire while at Adeleas' and Vandene's, but I'm not aware of anywhere that says it outright.

Be'lal and Sammael? Good question. I'm sure it's been discussed in other threads here, but I wasn't part of the discussion.

WinespringBrother
03-13-2012, 10:07 PM
During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

It is likely that Moiraine went around to her various eyes and ears to get details about the situations in Illian and Tear. Combined with her chat with Loial about Bel'al, and her research on many topics (not just balefire) with Vandene and Adeleas, gave her the necessary clues.

Terez
03-13-2012, 10:48 PM
She probably confirmed Sammael via eavesdropping.

NaeffOfDreams
03-14-2012, 10:31 AM
It's possible she just roughed up some Darkfriends to get the information. This has always bothered me a little though. Not enough to call shenanigans, but her seeming absolute surety that it's Sammael and Be'lal, rather than "one of the male Forsaken" led me to believe that she shook down some underlings for information. That explains how Be'lal knew she was in Tear too.

greatwolf
03-14-2012, 11:11 AM
I lean toward the blue stone for the "sure" part. Sure she has her informants and could have gotten some DFs, but confirmation likely came from a trusted source - her own ears!

As for Balefire, she learnt a lot of things. Maybe some from the green man. And she wanted to try dreamwalking, how much did she know? I can't think there were no books on the topic - among ogier for one.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 12:59 PM
You think she learned balefire from the Green Man? There was no time, surely. To learn anything. Moiraine may have learned things from him before (though I doubt any weave was among them), but her 'recent' knowledge is probably due to her stay with Vandene and Adeleas.

I thought it was from the books that Vandene and Adeleas owned, that Moiraine got balefire. I can't imagine any alternative. I doubt she would have had the chance to see it being weaved (by anyone).

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 01:07 PM
She probably confirmed Sammael via eavesdropping.

It's possible she just roughed up some Darkfriends to get the information. This has always bothered me a little though. Not enough to call shenanigans, but her seeming absolute surety that it's Sammael and Be'lal, rather than "one of the male Forsaken" led me to believe that she shook down some underlings for information. That explains how Be'lal knew she was in Tear too.

I lean toward the blue stone for the "sure" part. Sure she has her informants and could have gotten some DFs, but confirmation likely came from a trusted source - her own ears!

As for Balefire, she learnt a lot of things. Maybe some from the green man. And she wanted to try dreamwalking, how much did she know? I can't think there were no books on the topic - among ogier for one.

Eavesdropping on whom? Darkfriends? Sammael himself? Remember, he was incognito as Lord Brend and only the Chosen (if even any of them at the time) knew Brend's alter ego. So Moiraine would have had to scry a meeting of Chosen where someone actually addressed him Sammael (not to mention the fact that RJ said when the Chosen met, they spoke in the Old Tongue).

It's more likely that she used espionage and deductive reasoning rather than risking using the One Power in Sammael's vicinity considering she worried about being detected using weaves far outside of Illian against the Darkhounds.

Seth Baker
03-14-2012, 01:13 PM
All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 01:33 PM
All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.

Sammael was more of an old tongue title given to him in the 2nd age, like Ishamael's, (Betrayer of Hope) than a given name. Anyway, if Moiraine had spied on a Chosen meeting, she would probably have mentioned that.

But again, I think she would have needed line of sight and therefore dangerous proximity to eavesdrop which would have been unacceptably risky, and Sammael would surely keep his apartments warded against spying anyway.

Grig
03-14-2012, 01:34 PM
Sammael is one of the better-described Forsaken. People are having nightmares, and there's a new Council member with the distinctive facial scar that appears shortly after she saw Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye. It's strongly implied that she was studying up both on rare/banned weaves as well as the Forsaken while she was with Vandene and Adeleas, so this one doesn't stretch plausibility at all.

Bel'al is more of a mystery, since she didn't even know he was a manipulative type until Loial told her (which was after she had already determined he was in Tear). Perhaps Verin tipped her off? =P

GonzoTheGreat
03-14-2012, 01:39 PM
All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.
Sammael means "Betrayer of Hope".
And Ishamael means "Destroyer of Hope".

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2012, 01:49 PM
Sammael means "Betrayer of Hope".
And Ishamael means "Destroyer of Hope".

No, Ishamael means "Betrayer of Hope". Sammael means "Killer of Hope". I promise.

Terez
03-14-2012, 02:48 PM
Sammael=Destroyer.

Terez
03-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Eavesdropping on whom? Darkfriends? Sammael himself?
Sammael, obviously. As to how she overheard the name, use your imagination. It could have been many things.

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 02:51 PM
Ishamael is the Betrayer of Hope and Sammael is Destroyer of Hope

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 03:03 PM
Sammael, obviously. As to how she overheard the name, use your imagination. It could have been many things.

I can't imagine Sammael being cautious enough to send a darkhound after an Aes Sedai while being careless enough to allow an Aes Sedai to eavesdrop on his private chats and get away. And since he probably knew that Moiraine was there (else how would he have known where to send the darkhound that was sniffing around Easing the Badger), he would have known to take other precautions.

Terez
03-14-2012, 03:19 PM
I can't imagine Sammael being cautious enough to send a darkhound after an Aes Sedai while being careless enough to allow an Aes Sedai to eavesdrop on his private chats and get away.
You say that as if he didn't send the Darkhounds after her because she was eavesdropping on him.

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 03:31 PM
You say that as if he didn't send the Darkhounds after her because she was eavesdropping on him.

They left the Inn right after Moiraine left to do whatever errand she was on, so there would have been no time for Moiraine to spy on Sammael then for him to send the darkhound to the Inn after figuring out where she was, before they stepped out the door to scope around and find the darkhound prints. In the very least, they would have run into the darkhound as he was making the tracks, but they obviously didn't.

Terez
03-14-2012, 03:37 PM
They left the Inn right after Moiraine left to do whatever errand she was on, so there would have been no time for Moiraine to spy on Sammael then for him to send the darkhound to the Inn after figuring out where she was, before they stepped out the door to scope around and find the darkhound prints. In the very least, they would have run into the darkhound as he was making the tracks, but they obviously didn't.
If Sammael had sent that particular Darkhound after her, she'd be dead. He didn't send Darkhounds after her until they left the city.

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 03:42 PM
If Sammael had sent that particular Darkhound after her, she'd be dead. He didn't send Darkhounds after her until they left the city.

I'm saying he sent all the rest of the darkhounds after her and the gang because the first one that he sent after them was killed by Lan and/or Moiraine.

Tollingtoy
03-14-2012, 05:39 PM
Moiraine seems to do a lot of things "behind the scenes" in TGH and TDR. Was that a design by RJ to create some suspicion around her motives? It seems strange that someone could be so meticulous with the plot only to have Moiraine walk in and "know" about Sammael and Bel'al

WinespringBrother
03-14-2012, 06:49 PM
Moiraine seems to do a lot of things "behind the scenes" in TGH and TDR. Was that a design by RJ to create some suspicion around her motives? It seems strange that someone could be so meticulous with the plot only to have Moiraine walk in and "know" about Sammael and Bel'al

RJ did go out of his way to establish the extensive Eyes and Ears network available to Moiraine at the beginning of TDR. And while she did find out about Sammael very quickly, I think they were in Tear for days before going after Bel'al.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2012, 05:17 AM
Both Sammael and Be'lal were happily projecting their dreams to all and sundry. That too might have given some clues to an AS who knew what to look out for.

clarett
03-21-2012, 07:43 AM
Both Sammael and Be'lal were happily projecting their dreams to all and sundry. That too might have given some clues to an AS who knew what to look out for.

I agree, kind of like how they were able to track Rand through the effects of Tav'yren. Things were happening in Illian and Tear that Moiraine's eyes and ears reported. She said multiple times something to the effect of "signs are always there if you know what to look for"

wireguy
03-22-2012, 01:41 AM
I think that possibly RJ was planting the seeds of suspicion at the beginning of TGH. At the darkfriend social Bors spends a lot of time describing people he sees, these people include a couple Aes Sedai and a Shienaran among others. RJ confirmed in an interview that Ingtar was present at the social. Later Lan is talking to Rand on a tower top and mentions that Ingtar has been gone on a hunting trip for a long time and also mentions that Moiraine has also been gone because she needs to be alone sometimes. They both happen to arrive back at Fal Dara at approximately the same time, Moiraine in the night and Ingtar that morning. I found it suspicious but based on current information it was probably just a red herring as far as Moiraine goes.

In response to the question of how she knew of Be'lal and Sammael.... No idea other than what has been speculated already.

greatwolf
03-22-2012, 06:46 AM
I think tDR makes most of it clear. Moiraine already knew she was likely searching for one of the forsaken when she left the inn. If she was able to eavesdrop on Moiraine and Asmo with her stone undectected, its quite possible she could do the same for Lord Brend in the palace of the council of nine.

GonzoTheGreat
03-22-2012, 08:30 AM
I think tDR makes most of it clear. Moiraine already knew she was likely searching for one of the forsaken when she left the inn. If she was able to eavesdrop on Moiraine and Asmo with her stone undectected, its quite possible she could do the same for Lord Brend in the palace of the council of nine.
Yes, but it is less certain that she would have dared do so.

When she was listening in on Rand and Asmodean's conversations, she had a couple of advantages which did not apply to listening to another male Forsaken:
-She had some experience with what men could and could not do with the OP.
-She actually knew precisely who she was targeting.
-She knew that if she were found out, the most she could expect was verbal anger. If Sammael had discovered her, he might have send Darkhounds after her.
-If either Rand or Asmodean had noticed female channeling without noticing more, they wouldn't have considered that particularly suspicious.

All in all, it's about the difference between eavesdropping on a friend, or doing so with a gangster boss.

Spidy
03-22-2012, 10:48 AM
1. Sammael didn't shield his dreams.

2. Four Forsaken were known to Moiraine by this time so it is not a stretch to assume more were out. Sammael makes five.

3. Darkhounds in play.

4. No Aes Sedai injunction in Illian so she could go were she chose as she wanted.

5. Forsaken did not care about "so called" Aes Sedai as they were no threat at all, as shown by Moiraine flight from Illian asap.

6. Mashadar poppd up and told her Sammy was in town.

Tomp
03-22-2012, 06:29 PM
On Moiraine.

I think she will be queen in Cairhien before the end.

Seth Baker
03-22-2012, 10:04 PM
That would require Elayne dying or abdicating, and I don't see that happening.