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Terez
03-14-2012, 12:05 AM
So I figured we needed a new thread. (See rules (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5645).) (See previous (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4070) Egwene threads (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5648).) Also, vote. Just because everyone is curious. Tell us how you really feel. (Again.)

Nazbaque
03-14-2012, 08:06 AM
I went with the sucks option. The early Egwene should die in a fire and the current Egwene is pretty cool and might be bordering on made of awesome if there weren't still some echoes of the early Egwene and if Rand hadn't raised the standards of "made of awesome" before passing beyond it to the "so great you can't measure it" territory.

In TEOTW Egwene is selfish, shallow, childish, proverbially overconfident and wilfully blind/stupid. She gets better book by book so that in TDR she shouldn't die in a fire anymore and just sucks, though she sucks so badly even TSR Moiraine thinks she's annoying and we can trust her opinion since she is so cool she had to be removed from the series for six books so she wouldn't actually become cooler than Mat which only Rand is allowed to do.

When Egwene is raised Amyrlin she goes into the Meh territory and in KOD she slowly upgrades to the pretty cool, but even though she tries hard in TGS and TOM she won't be made of awesome unless she meets her toh to Rand/Mat/Perrin for being the way she is in the first six books.

So that's two books of "should die in a fire", three and a half of "sucks", five of "Meh" and two and a half of "pretty cool". You could argue that one "pretty cool" and one "sucks" is the same as two "Meh" so it would become two "should die in a fire", one "sucks" and ten "Meh", but one "should die in a fire" and one "Meh" are not necessarily two "sucks". In my opinion "sould die in a fire" and "made of awesome" would cancel eachother into "Meh" but "pretty cool" and "sucks" are not the exact midway points from "Meh" to "made of awesome"/"should die in a fire". I'm not sure of the exact numbers but let's assume that two "Meh" and one "should die in a fire" are the same as three "sucks", then the two "should die in a fire", one "sucks" and ten "Meh" becomes seven "sucks" and six "Meh". You can of course disagree with me on that last bit, but I ask you to bear in mind that if your definitions of the scale are considerably different from mine you should also adjust the starting values I gave to you.

If for example you consider that one "should die in a fire" and one "Meh" would be the same as two "sucks" you would have to change some of my "pretty cool"s and "sucks"s into "Meh"s making the area of "Meh" bigger and my opinion should then be defined as "Meh" bordering on "sucks" instead of "sucks" bordering on "Meh" OR some of my "sucks"s should be changed to "should die in a fire"s and one "pretty cool" to "made of awesome" (I can accept that some of you would define my opinion of TOM Egwene as "made of awesome", but not TGS Egwene and certainly not any Egwene before that) the result being somewhere between firmly "sucks" and "sucks" bordering on "Meh"

Hope you all now know my personal and potentially meaningless opinion on Egwene as a character.

Davian93
03-14-2012, 08:19 AM
Burn baby burn

yks 6nnetu hing
03-14-2012, 08:49 AM
Egwene is brilliant and that's that.

A bit of an aside though, I had a weird revelation on Gawyn the other day: there are some parallels to be drawn between Gawyn and Galad with Gawyn being a softer version of Galad. They both have a very strict understanding of what to do with situations and people that don't conform to "right". Except where Galad can clearly identify what is right (well, from his point of view anyway), Gawyn cannot even begin. Just look at chapter 23 of tGH when the inner monologue goes from Elaida being a bad Amyrlin to the Rebels being wrong in opposing Elaida in the first place to raging at Rand for killing Morgase (and subsequent rabid reaction to Bryne suggesting that if true, that was probably for the best) to slight worry for Elayne to huge worry for Egwene.

Now, if it was Galad, he would be heading STRAIGHT to Caemlyn as soon as he heard that Elayne was there. Then again, if he was galad, he never would have defected fromthe Younglings in the first place. Except maybe if he heard that Elayne was in Caemlyn.

As rabid as Galad is, I wish RJ had ditched Gawyn and kept Galad and his initial infatuation with Egwene (instead of world's prettiest couple Berelad). No harm done to the main storyline, really and the tension Whictecloaks-White Tower being healed by loooooove would make a whole lot more sense than whatever's going to happen now.

GonzoTheGreat
03-14-2012, 09:19 AM
As rabid as Galad is, I wish RJ had ditched Gawyn and kept Galad and his initial infatuation with Egwene (instead of world's prettiest couple Berelad). No harm done to the main storyline, really and the tension Whictecloaks-White Tower being healed by loooooove would make a whole lot more sense than whatever's going to happen now.
But Berelain is just an innocent temporary diversion while Galad is on the road. Didn't you know that?

There's clear foretelling about this. I think that the wedding will be performed on the Field of Merrilor, though I do not (yet) know which of the three ta'veren will be the one to conduct the ceremony.
"I don't know why you might think that," Thom said dryly. "Next you could try telling the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks he should marry the Amyrlin Seat."
Rand is the highest ranking ta'veren, obviously, but Mat is specifically mentioned in the relevant prophecy. And Perrin actually set a precedent, when he married off Galad's mother. So each of the three has qualifications for this. Since I don't know the actual rules for marriages between the AS and the LCotW, I can't say how the various claims to precedence would work out.

Heinz
03-14-2012, 10:08 AM
There's actually a line in TGH that I was going to ask about in a separate thread linking the two. I don't have the chapter and page, as I caught it in a 're-listen' (Yes, I know some of you hate Audible's version of the books, but I spend a lot of time on the road these days so these help me stay awake.)

(Gonzo was awesome and found the passage for me.) One of the things she mentions is some kind of link to Galad. Yet so far, from this point on in the books, Egwene has less interest in Galad and more in Gawyn.

Did I miss what fulfilled Min's vision of Egwene and Galad being linked, or has there been speculation of what that link is, considering or despite Egwene and Gawyn at this stage at the end of ToM?

GonzoTheGreat
03-14-2012, 11:18 AM
The Answer:
"Stop it!" Min snapped. "You stop it right this instant! If you get shipped off to Seanchan, I'll be right there with you. But I don't think you will. You know I've read you, Egwene. I don't understand most of it – I almost never do – but I see things I am sure link you to Rand, and Perrin, and Mat, and – yes, even Galad, the Light help you for a fool. How can any of that happen if the Seanchan take you off across the ocean?"

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Am I the only one that found ToM Rand to be beyond annoying? So...sanctimonious.

And perhaps the greatest victories for the haters of Egwene can be seen in historical trends: old (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=32) and older (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=25)

Khoram
03-14-2012, 02:19 PM
I've never liked Egwene, but as of right now, I don't think she should die in a fire. Maybe from an explosion, but not by fire. The smell of burning flesh isn't pleasant. Sure, the explosion is messy, but sacrifices must be made.

Terez
03-14-2012, 02:20 PM
Am I the only one that found ToM Rand to be beyond annoying?
It was Moridin.

Grig
03-14-2012, 02:43 PM
It was Moridin.

I think he's referring to Zen Rand, actually. If that's Moridin, I missed an interesting theory :-). Moridin was tGS!Rand. I actually rather like when we get into Moridin's head.

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Thank God the old Egwene thread was closed. I just realised I agree with Res about something.

SEE WHAT I MEANT ABOUT A PART OF MY SOUL DYING????

(just kidding Res. You've got me on ignore anyway)

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 04:26 PM
Thank God the old Egwene thread was closed. I just realised I agree with Res about something.

SEE WHAT I MEANT ABOUT A PART OF MY SOUL DYING????

(just kidding Res. You've got me on ignore anyway)
You might not want to thank God just yet...

Didn't you once say that part of your soul would die if an Egwene-thread got stickied?

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2012, 04:40 PM
You might not want to thank God just yet...

Didn't you once say that part of your soul would die if an Egwene-thread got stickied?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWAEmG-l9fs

Khoram
03-14-2012, 04:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWAEmG-l9fs

It was about time, no? :D

BTW, I haven't listened to a Dream Theater song in ages! Harmonies... *happy sigh*

Terez
03-14-2012, 05:48 PM
I think he's referring to Zen Rand, actually. If that's Moridin, I missed an interesting theory :-). Moridin was tGS!Rand. I actually rather like when we get into Moridin's head.
They are still linked. Rand's actions in TGS were mostly influenced by his increasing madness and his use of the True Power, I think. Though Brandon says there are still consequences to come on that point.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2012, 08:55 PM
Well, I know they are still linked. I just don't think the 'Rand' that annoyed me was the 'darker' half.

Maybe it's just that ToM was the only book I listened to, and I didn't read it first. And in the audiobook, Rand gives these preachy lines with a weird voice, like his mouth is full of pudding or something. Maybe it was just how the speaker thought she should do a male voice, idk.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2012, 04:36 AM
Maybe it's just that ToM was the only book I listened to, and I didn't read it first. And in the audiobook, Rand gives these preachy lines with a weird voice, like his mouth is full of pudding or something. Maybe it was just how the speaker thought she should do a male voice, idk.
Oh, that. That's just Egwene.

Lupusdeusest
03-15-2012, 08:23 AM
I've probably stated my views elsewhere, but I feel Egwene is redeeming herself. I can see how differently i would portray such a character, but she has grown on me.

Khoram
03-15-2012, 08:57 AM
I've probably stated my views elsewhere, but I feel Egwene is redeeming herself. I can see how differently i would portray such a character, but she has grown on me.

You mean like a parasite? Or cancer?

I'm so sorry. :(

Grig
03-15-2012, 09:58 AM
They are still linked.

Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just didn't think that the Zen Rand was Moridin encroaching on his thoughts, unbeknownst to him but knownst to us. I'd be interested in any theory that says otherwise, though :-).

Terez
03-15-2012, 10:09 AM
Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just didn't think that the Zen Rand was Moridin encroaching on his thoughts, unbeknownst to him but knownst to us. I'd be interested in any theory that says otherwise, though :-).
In this case, we're supposed to think everything is alright, like Rand does (just like we were supposed to think that Lews Therin was another person). But there are small clues otherwise throughout the book, and the dream at the end is a huge clue.

Grig
03-15-2012, 10:46 AM
Indubitably. The real question is how someone else finds this out. There has to be a reason for Mordred to kill him, right? Gawyn's over his "jealousy of Rand getting honor and recognition" (and that just didn't feel right, honestly, as his motive for the unbridled hate). Moridin wouldn't exactly tip the Light side off as to the connection. Min isn't one of the parallels, and if she had an epiphany about the merging viewing she wouldn't exactly run to Egwene about it.

Almost seems like it would have to be Moiraine (with the nice foreshadowing about killing him before letting the Shadow have him, of course). Perhaps she figures something out regarding her questions answered from the Tear gateway, or she overhears Min/Rand talking about the merging viewing and puts two and two together. Can't be from the more recent trip, since the foxes don't answer questions. But then how does the whole Gawain and the Green Knight thing fit (since I can't see how he would get motive to take Rand out -- breaking the Seals doesn't seem enough to motivate the murder of the only one that can handle what's behind the Seals, since they are inevitably going to break in this lifetime). Hm.

It feels good to derail an Egwene thread. It's like all Soviet Russia up in here.

The Unreasoner
03-15-2012, 01:49 PM
In this case, we're supposed to think everything is alright, like Rand does (just like we were supposed to think that Lews Therin was another person). But there are small clues otherwise throughout the book, and the dream at the end is a huge clue.
I'm not saying that the so-called 'Dark Rand' is dead and buried. I'm sure it's not all sunlight and rainbows.

But I do think that if a dark side is present, it's deep enough for Min to miss it. And certainly deep enough that your leaping right to Moridin as a reply seems more than a bit odd. Or at least out of place. Unless there is some new theory? I once speculated that the timing in ToM may allow for a new 'Light-Moridin' born after the Epiphany.

final death
03-29-2012, 07:53 PM
I chose die in fire for two reasons one she bores me to tears normally and when shes being "super cool" it requires me to step outside the story and ask myself why she has a Drain Intelligence aura surrounding her. She is quite literally the physical embodiment of a mind flayer but without being tentacle faced. Her aura of suck which is used to make everyone around her so terrible she becomes the most awesome person around by default is boring, unrealistic, and unexplained in story without a felixpax type stretch of evidence and belief. So while i don't hate her I am bored every time i have to read about her. Thus her spontaneous combustion due to a bubble of evil would be a fitting and entertaining end to Egwene al'Vere.

suttree
03-29-2012, 10:07 PM
Her aura of suck which is used to make everyone around her so terrible she becomes the most awesome person around by default is boring, unrealistic, and unexplained in story without a felixpax type stretch of evidence and belief.

The same can be said for a fair number of the cast. It is not a phenomena unique to Egwene, especially when the Shadow is involved.

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2012, 04:12 AM
The same can be said for a fair number of the cast. It is not a phenomena unique to Egwene, especially when the Shadow is involved.
But Egwene is the best at this, by far. With those others, it is some kind of ability they're not very skilled with, in her case it is on the level of a Talent.

Rand al'Fain
03-30-2012, 12:42 PM
For me, she just sucks. She treats friends and Gawyn, even in private, as little more than dirt, and if they disagree with her, or, say in the case of Nynaeve and her in TAR and she punishes Nynaeve for really nothing that is Nynaeve's fault, only to save her own ass. She becomes little more than a bully to her friends and somehow the only person that sees the obvious when it comes to dealing with other subjects, while the people around her at the time somehow become mindless idiots.

She's a control freak (and so was Rand before his epiphany, I'll readily admit), but has been one since the very first time we see her.

Plus, she still owes Mat an apology for treating him like crap from when he rescued them in Tear.

suttree
03-30-2012, 12:53 PM
say in the case of Nynaeve and her in TAR and she punishes Nynaeve for really nothing that is Nynaeve's fault, only to save her own ass.

No matter how reprehensible her actions were in covering up her lie(which she met Toh for) she still had a legit point with Nynaeve on the subject. Nyn was pretty ignorant and reckless in Tar at the time.

Rand al'Fain
03-31-2012, 02:25 AM
No matter how reprehensible her actions were in covering up her lie(which she met Toh for) she still had a legit point with Nynaeve on the subject. Nyn was pretty ignorant and reckless in Tar at the time.

And the irony/hypocrisy is, so was Egwene at the sametime, as she was supposed to still be apprenticed to the WOs and only go to TAR with them. And let's not forget that Nynaeve being reckless was only Egwene's cover story for her actions there. But not only did she owe the Wise Ones, but she owes Nynaeve an apology not only for that, but also for how she treated Nynaeve during her testing to become Aes Sedai. She made it even more brutal than what pretty much any other Aes Sedai had to go through.

At least Nynaeve gave Egwene a bit of a reality check with the "serene for the sake of being serene" bit she told her.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2012, 03:45 AM
No matter how reprehensible her actions were in covering up her lie(which she met Toh for) she still had a legit point with Nynaeve on the subject. Nyn was pretty ignorant and reckless in Tar at the time.
But Nynaeve was being reckless on her own. That was her decision, and while it might not have been a particularly smart decision (though she did survive it, which is the ultimate test in matters like these) it was hers to make.

Egwene had explicitly agreed to let her teachers decide whether or not she was qualified to go to TAR, and what she did when she was there. Then she immediately broke her word. To cover up the fact that she was cheating, she bullied Nynaeve, and forced Nynaeve to support Egwene's lie.

Which, of course, brings up the interesting matter of toh.
Effectively, Nynaeve lied to the Wise Ones because Egwene demanded that of her. Does anyone have toh for that, and if so, who and to whom?

fionwe1987
03-31-2012, 10:58 AM
And the irony/hypocrisy is, so was Egwene at the sametime, as she was supposed to still be apprenticed to the WOs and only go to TAR with them. And let's not forget that Nynaeve being reckless was only Egwene's cover story for her actions there. But not only did she owe the Wise Ones, but she owes Nynaeve an apology not only for that,
Undoubtedly she does. But since both of these women have so much else in their mind, and neither has let a nearly year old event affect the fact that they trust each other and work well together, I really don't think we'll see one coming. And its not like Nynaeve doesn't have her own bouts of hypocrisy and bullying to apologize for. Sometimes, I think people really don't see these things in perspective. This was a teenager realizing she isn't a kid anymore, and that she can thumb her nose at the major adult figure of her adolescence, and going too far while doing it. It is far from an act to her credit, but nor does it make her evil.
Egwene has demonstrated her loyalty to Nynaeve plenty of times, not least when she sent Lan to Nyn the moment she found him. Did you see Nynaeve thanking Egwene for that? Did you see Egwene bemoaning Nynaeve's lack of gratitude? No. They're friends, they're allies, they don't let a few ups and downs come in the way of that. They're not going to gush over every good thing they do for each other, and they're not going to wail and tear their hair over each mistake they make in their interaction.

but also for how she treated Nynaeve during her testing to become Aes Sedai. She made it even more brutal than what pretty much any other Aes Sedai had to go through.
I thought she did do that. She apologized for the final test, and she apologized for not stopping the test a lot earlier.

At least Nynaeve gave Egwene a bit of a reality check with the "serene for the sake of being serene" bit she told her.
Huh? I don't think that was the reality check. Egwene already holds the Wise Ones and the way they carry themselves in far greater regard than the Aes Sedai. And they're far from serene for the sake of it.

What Nynaeve reminded her is that the Aes Sedai were losing touch with the real world. They were too closeted, too involved in their own closed world. And Egwene needed that reminder. People like her and Siuan are not closed to the flaws of the Tower. But they've become so involved in changing it and making it match its potential for good that they lose sight of those flaws, at times. Egwene couldn't have made a better move than bringing Nynaeve in. Be it in the way she views the Tower or the way she handles Rand's demands in Merrilor, she needs Nynaeve to needle her and speak her mind. Few others seem to do that around her these days.

To Egwene's credit, she didn't mind that Nynaeve put Lan above the Tower, only warned about the possible political fallout from Nynaeve stating that right away.

suttree
03-31-2012, 05:59 PM
And the irony/hypocrisy is, so was Egwene at the sametime, as she was supposed to still be apprenticed to the WOs and only go to TAR with them.

To be clear I'm not excusing her actions but her skill far outstripped Nyn in Tar. She was perfectly capable of being there by herself and she was correct in what she told Nyn.

I agree as well with Fionwe that this whole period with Nyn was meant to be a coming of age moment. Somehow juvenile mistakes get magnified by portions of the fan base into almost Forsaken like acts.

final death
04-03-2012, 06:50 PM
Somehow juvenile mistakes get magnified by portions of the fan base into almost Forsaken like acts.

I would prefer to be stuck in a room with semirhage as oppossed to egwene because I feel more threatened by egwenes mind flayer like powers than semirhage creepy sadism. While there is a good chance i would survive being a room with egwene the price is much to high.

GonzoTheGreat
04-04-2012, 04:34 AM
I would prefer to be stuck in a room with semirhage as oppossed to egwene because I feel more threatened by egwenes mind flayer like powers than semirhage creepy sadism. While there is a good chance i would survive being a room with egwene the price is much to high.
I would prefer to be stuck with Egwene in such circumstances. Higher chance of being able to walk away eventually and forget about it all.
However, I think that when given the choice of which of them to have as a friend, then you should pick Semirhage, especially if, like me, you're a man. Of course, Lanfear would be a lot more dependable* than either of the two under consideration here, but you can't have everything, apparently.

* If you get in between her and LTT dive out of the way; otherwise, as long as you don't mess up her hairdo, she's cool.

final death
04-04-2012, 03:30 PM
I agree lanfear seems really cool and not really that bad of a person. She is motivated primarily by power and jealousy. I agree on the dependability also even after being trapped in a dreamless sleep for over 3000 years she still wanted lews therin. Though that seems more like someone from that deadly attractions show.

fionwe1987
04-05-2012, 01:56 AM
I agree lanfear seems really cool and not really that bad of a person. She is motivated primarily by power and jealousy. I agree on the dependability also even after being trapped in a dreamless sleep for over 3000 years she still wanted lews therin. Though that seems more like someone from that deadly attractions show.
Semirhage isn't all that bad either. She's just motivated by scientific curiosity about the effect of pain on human beings. The stupid AoLers didn't let her freely do her important experiments, so of course she started doing them in secret. Isn't knowledge better than ignorance?

And Graendal. I mean, come on! All she wants to do is act out as extremely hedonistic to convince people that simplicity and an ascetic life are better for society. Look how nobly she sacrifices herself, even turning to a devilish entity, to make sure mankind learns this important lesson.

And Mesaana. Can you really blame her? Here is the AoL administration, quashing the ambitions of an intelligent woman out of jealousy. Who wouldn't act out? Which human being, with a scientific bent; who wants to be able to use her mind; which such person wouldn't go around brainwashing kids to punish the society that rejected her?

Now Egwene... that's a character where we can see true evil. She dared to argue with the Dragon Reborn himself! And she acted out in a teenage fit, humiliating her mentor. What a despicable act! The Blight itself advanced on that day. A Seal on the Dark One's prison was broken by the power of this evil act...

:rolleyes:

final death
04-05-2012, 01:30 PM
Semirhage isn't all that bad either. She's just motivated by scientific curiosity about the effect of pain on human beings. The stupid AoLers didn't let her freely do her important experiments, so of course she started doing them in secret. Isn't knowledge better than ignorance?

And Graendal. I mean, come on! All she wants to do is act out as extremely hedonistic to convince people that simplicity and an ascetic life are better for society. Look how nobly she sacrifices herself, even turning to a devilish entity, to make sure mankind learns this important lesson.

And Mesaana. Can you really blame her? Here is the AoL administration, quashing the ambitions of an intelligent woman out of jealousy. Who wouldn't act out? Which human being, with a scientific bent; who wants to be able to use her mind; which such person wouldn't go around brainwashing kids to punish the society that rejected her?

Now Egwene... that's a character where we can see true evil. She dared to argue with the Dragon Reborn himself! And she acted out in a teenage fit, humiliating her mentor. What a despicable act! The Blight itself advanced on that day. A Seal on the Dark One's prison was broken by the power of this evil act...

:rolleyes:

Exactly That's all true except for the massena and Egwene part. I don't think Egwene is evil at all. I just think she is boring and someone i would hate to have in my life or world. Semirhage and greandal are both believable egwene is not and neither is masaana being intelligent. After all masaana got mind crushed by egwenes I'm the embodiment of the white tower thought line.:(

Grig
04-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

I has enough of a sad at this to actually bump this thread. Anyone else disappointed? "Experience is irrelevant; I am the White Tower, and the White Tower doesn't bend" isn't a very compelling end state. That scene with Mesaana was just painful. It was a big step backwards from tGS Egwene.

Sukoto
04-10-2012, 07:17 PM
Egwene was not nearly as satisfying in ToM as she was in KoD and tGS. For that, she is no longer full of awesome. She is just pretty cool.

GonzoTheGreat
04-11-2012, 04:53 AM
Egwene has status, what would she need character for?

Grig
04-11-2012, 10:25 AM
Egwene has status, what would she need character for?

Light Egwene sure sounds a lot like Dark Rand >.>

suttree
04-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Light Egwene sure sounds a lot like Dark Rand >.>

Balefiring innocents, leaving cities to starve, seconds from killing her father, slaughtering her own men with the power? Guess that is all happening in aMoL. :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-11-2012, 11:57 AM
Balefiring innocents, leaving cities to starve, seconds from killing her father, slaughtering her own men with the power? Guess that is all happening in aMoL. :D
Lemme see ...
-She doesn't know balefire, which seriously hampers her style.
-She hasn't really done much to stop any city from starving, has she? With the possible exception of Tar Valon after she captured that, I don't think she has taken any actions aimed at combating the DO's influence on the food situation in the world at large. She could have send out AS to help transport food to the needy. That would've increased the appreciation for the Tower, I think.
-Her father knows her. He stays far away from her. Rand's father knows him. He dared approach his child. Both seem to be correct in their estimates. :p
-The slaughtering of her own men may still come. But she has already shown a willingness to slaughter her own women, during the Seanchan raid on the WT. She also executed a bunch of BA members, who also count as "her own".

Grig
04-11-2012, 12:13 PM
Balefiring innocents

While she possibly knows balefire (she's at least seen it used), there is the shooting down innocent Aes Sedai for the offense of wearing a collar. Before you note that she was saving them from a fate worse than death, that's exactly what Rand thought he was doing too. And his action included killing a Forsaken.

leaving cities to starve

*cough*Siege of Tar Valon*cough*
(We do know the purpose of a siege, right? Starve them out! Beonin likely saved many lives by betraying Egwene; how do you like them apples?)

seconds from killing her father

Just wait until she finds out she was adopted.

slaughtering her own men with the power?

Seanchan raid again.

Guess that is all happening in aMoL.

Only if she continues her trajectory! The whole point of Rand's plot arc is that he's a person, not a tool or title or whatever. Egwene stunningly going the opposite direction in the same book was frankly baffling.

suttree
04-11-2012, 12:43 PM
While she possibly knows balefire (she's at least seen it used), there is the shooting down innocent Aes Sedai for the offense of wearing a collar. Before you note that she was saving them from a fate worse than death, that's exactly what Rand thought he was doing too. And his action included killing a Forsaken.



*cough*Siege of Tar Valon*cough*
(We do know the purpose of a siege, right? Starve them out! Beonin likely saved many lives by betraying Egwene; how do you like them apples?)



Just wait until she finds out she was adopted.



Seanchan raid again.



Only if she continues her trajectory! The whole point of Rand's plot arc is that he's a person, not a tool or title or whatever. Egwene stunningly going the opposite direction in the same book was frankly baffling.

Actually quite impressive twisting of events...tip of the hat.

Lupusdeusest
04-12-2012, 10:22 AM
I'm never too sure how much of the Egwene threads is serious.


Considering the truly awesome characters in WoT - Verin and Moiraine - are so very awesome, I have relegated Eggy to the Pretty Cool category in comparison.

Grig
04-12-2012, 10:41 AM
I'm never too sure how much of the Egwene threads is serious.

I'm just screwing around. She's one of my less favorite characters, but I think in general she's well-written (although she did really irritate me in TEotW in the way that she went from the TR "all channelers are evil" to "only those filthy dirty male channelers are evil, and this totally isn't just me trying to justify wanting to use the Power without actually wanting to empathize with or understand the situation of other channelers"). My last grievance in my previous post is a serious one, too (well, with elaboration -- obviously Egwene is not directly comparable to Dark Rand in most of the ways that are important metaphysically, but the whole "person not Object" theme being totally turned 180 really does baffle me), although it's more with the writing than with the character.

Karak Norn Clansman
04-13-2012, 05:29 PM
"Pretty cool", I say. Jordan and Sanderson actually made something good out of Egwene without making her too likeable, although I'm suprised she isn't Ta'veren, since that would help lend her rise to power more plausibility. As a leader, she have a convincing personality without being too much of a thorn in the side.

Also, Robert Jordan pulled off two very good short episodes with Egwene: One when she became a captive damane in TGH, the other in KoD, in the chapter "Honey in the Tea". Now that's smooth writing which you remember as longer than they actually were! If Jordan had kept the same smoothness for the rest of the series "filler" material between pivotal and action scenes, WoT would have been absolutely supreme. Well, perhaps with a little less irrelevant plot lines and with slimmed down dress descriptions, too. Then it would have been perfect.

GonzoTheGreat
04-14-2012, 03:59 AM
Well, perhaps with a little less irrelevant plot lines and with slimmed down dress descriptions, too. Then it would have been perfect.
On top of all the other dress descriptions you now also want descriptions of slimmed down dresses? :confused:

Karak Norn Clansman
04-14-2012, 04:42 AM
On top of all the other dress descriptions you now also want descriptions of slimmed down dresses? :confused:

LOL, no. English is not my primary language. I meant "less dress descriptions", that is, the descriptions themselves slimmed down. The dresses need not be slimmed down. :p

The Angry Druid
04-14-2012, 10:48 PM
Egwene is pretty cool.

She's been through a lot, done a lot, and remained pretty loyal to her friends. But she takes responsibilities VERY seriously, and that has made some or relationships strained at times (Rand, Aviendha, Elayne, Nyneave, Gawyn).

Her main flaw is that she immerses herself in whatever task she is about, and adopts that perspective wholeheartedly. It can be a weakness, but also a strength. She did it as Nynaeve's assistant, as a novice and as an Accpeted, as an Aiel apprentice, and as Amyrlin.

She's swallowed too much Aes Sedai dogma (taking the Oath, living apart), though whether from Siuan, her flaw, or perhaps Aran'gar's influence, or a little bit of each, who knows?

However, her intense focus and ability to internalize things has allowed her to wrest control or the Rebel's away from Romanda and Lelaine (with Siuan's help), win the respect of the Aiel Wise One's, be a very fast learner (be it as Siuan's pupil, Nynaeve's, Amys', or as a damane), rediscover female traveling, wrest control of the White Tower away from Elaida while being unable to channel and under guard, purge the WT of the Black Ajah (huge assist from Verin), win Gareth Byrne's respect and loyalty, defeat Mesaana 1 v 1 in T'A'R by sheer strength of will, single-handedly save the Tower from the Seanchan, and integrate the Tower, Wise Ones, and Windfinders, to a degree; and make big strides in unifying the Tower: not wanting to destroy the Reds, making Silviana keeper, earning the trust of all the Ajahs, changing the rules in the Hall for the better (no more secret meetings or absent Sitters).

Not too shabby, if I don't say so. And all before turning what, 20?

And she was the only one from the Two Rivers to choose to leave. No other can say the same. Pretty gutsy little girl, yes?

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2012, 04:43 AM
She's been through a lot, done a lot, and remained pretty loyal to her friends.
As I've said before: I am very glad that I am not her friend.

Look at how she expressed her loyalty to Nynaeve: she did everything she could to drive her mad during the test for Aes Sedai.
Look at how she expressed her loyalty to Perrin: she tried to tie him up in TAR where he could then be found by the Black Ajah or Mesaana.

fionwe1987
04-15-2012, 09:12 AM
Look at how she expressed her loyalty to Nynaeve: she did everything she could to drive her mad during the test for Aes Sedai.
So you want her to throw easy ones at Nynaeve because she is the Amyrlin's friend? What a wonderful affirmation of friendship: "I'm such a good friend, I'm going to insult your ability to be Aes Sedai by giving you easy tests in front of seven Sitters. See me selfishly prove what a great friend I am instead of working to be sure you're respected as you deserve!"

Thankfully, she isn't that shallow. Nynaeve knows, as Aviendha did with the Wise Ones, that a tough test where a tough test is demanded isn't a sign of disloyalty.

Look at how she expressed her loyalty to Perrin: she tried to tie him up in TAR where he could then be found by the Black Ajah or Mesaana.
And here we go again. How many times does brandon have to say that she planned to take him to a safe place before returning to battle?

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2012, 09:34 AM
So you want her to throw easy ones at Nynaeve because she is the Amyrlin's friend?
She could have stayed out of the test entirely, possibly citing a wish to avoid giving the impression of showing any kind of favoritism.
Instead, she deliberately set up a situation where she would either be accused of being too gentle to Nynaeve unless she was so very harsh that no one could make that accusation.

And here we go again. How many times does brandon have to say that she planned to take him to a safe place before returning to battle?
Commendable. Of course, that does assume that Egwene had forgotten the fact that this was not possible (because of the dreamspike), a fact which had been made clear to her not all that long before when she had tried to order a bunch of her friends/followers to go to a safe place, and they could not leave.

So which place within the range of the dreamspike did Egwene know that would be safe for Perrin to be bound and helpless while the BA was trying to murder everyone they could find?

Grig
04-15-2012, 08:10 PM
She's swallowed too much Aes Sedai dogma (taking the Oath, living apart), though whether from Siuan, her flaw, or perhaps Aran'gar's influence, or a little bit of each, who knows?

Pretty sure either Jordan or Sanderson said that Aran'gar didn't have any influence on her thinking re: Oaths and all that. Halima was just a bungler who gave her headaches to prevent her from Dreaming. I think this makes for a less compelling and less explained Egwene, unfortunately.

And she was the only one from the Two Rivers to choose to leave. No other can say the same.

Nynaeve chose to leave. The boys all also chose, they simply had reason for choosing aside from "screw small town, I want an adventure".

Edynol
04-15-2012, 08:34 PM
Nynaeve chose to leave. The boys all also chose, they simply had reason for choosing aside from "screw small town, I want an adventure".
The boys were forced to chose by circumstance. Nyn was also forced to chose by her concern for their well-being. None of them really wanted to leave.

But Eggy wasn't forced into anything. She just wanted to go because others were.

McCaber
04-16-2012, 02:10 AM
Because of her actions, the White Tower still stands and can actually help the world for once at Tarmon Gaidon. Pretty cool if you ask me.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 07:51 AM
Oh yeah I chose pretty cool as well. I mean, everyone has done something from time to time that annoys me, except Mat, of course, but I don't dislike any of the main characters. Not anymore, anyways. I disliked Nyn for the longest time until Birgitte was forced out of TAR, but now she's my favorite out the super-girls.

Grig
04-16-2012, 09:50 AM
The boys were forced to chose by circumstance.

No such thing. Especially when Jordan's original book idea was what would happen if the prophesied savior wasn't up to it and ran away. They made the choice. It was the right one, and the only sensible one. But it was still their choice to make. One could just as easily say Egs was "forced" into it because if she hadn't gone, she would have had a greater than not likelihood of dying when she sparked. And Nynaeve wasn't "forced" into anything. She didn't trust Moiraine, and chose to act on it.

Edynol
04-16-2012, 10:30 AM
No you can't say Eggy was forced because at the time she had no idea about having the spark and dying and all that. Sorry, but unlike the others, she had no good reason for choosing to go other than she wanted adventure.

And yeah, maybe 'forced' is too strong a word. They pushed into choosing very hard. Rather it be by Moiraine or a sense of obligation to those they cared for. Thing is, their choices were influenced by external forces, Eggy's wasn't. She had just as much reason to stay and help heal and rebuild, but chose the more fun one cause she didn't want to be stuck there while her friends went on some grand adventure.

gholam
04-21-2012, 10:57 PM
And it only took 49 posts for you to catch on.

Arguing with Gholam about Aes Sedai is like arguing with the Egwene-haters -- absolutely nothing will change their mind on a single point, a total waste of time from the start.

The feeling is reciprocated. Absoluetly nothing can change Eggy and AS supporters. Total waste of time.

In fact an argument never changes ideas. It's discussions which might do that. Instead of arguing, the AS and Eggy supporters should realize that they need to discuss.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2012, 04:41 AM
As for the seals Rand has no idea what to do after he breaks them and refused to discuss it with Egwene. There is no way in hell she should just sign off on that without any explanation.
Well, Rand could also have broken the Seals without informing her in advance. Then she wouldn't have had to sign off on it.
Or the DO could do it. He has proven in the past that he has that ability. Do you think he would refrain from breaking the remaining Seals if Egwene refuses to sign off on it?

So, what actual gain could be gotten by anyone but Egwene if she is given such a veto power over breaking those Seals, and who else (Windfinders, Tuon, Tinkers, the Ogier, Galad and Asunawa, Narg Reborn, to name but a few parties) should be given veto power on this?

It is nothing more than her own sense of entitlement which makes her believe that she should have a say in this.

The haven't discussed the subject because they have agreed to do so at the FoM. As for what the WT did, far from just bickering Egwene has been marshaling for the fight at TG.
Do you have evidence for this?

Like, you know, actual quotes?

All I've seen is that she intends to confront Rand, and stop him from trying it the way he thinks might have a chance.

I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case tens of thousands of Trollocs pour out of the Waygate at Tar Valon, let alone all the others all across the land.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case the DO breaks the last Seals half an hour after she's convinced Rand not to do that.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made to counter whatever it is that Demandred is cooking up.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made for actually holding the line at the Borderlands.

In short: I do not know of any plans she has actually made considering the actual Last Battle. Only political machinations considering other AS, other (mostly female) channelers, and stopping Rand al'Thor from doing what he considers necessary have been on her mind.

Flinn Sedai
04-22-2012, 04:51 AM
As for the seals Rand has no idea what to do after he breaks them and refused to discuss it with Egwene. There is no way in hell she should just sign off on that without any explanation. The haven't discussed the subject because they have agreed to do so at the FoM. As for what the WT did, far from just bickering Egwene has been marshaling for the fight at TG.

ToM

I always thought it was quite evident that Rand/LTT did that with Egwene because he knew she'd instinctively try to counter him. She'd do it by trying to show as many rulers as possible. Basically, he used her to gather the rulers of the world, for the Last Battle.

He even says, quite explicitly, that he's planning to meet the monarchs of the world to discuss his price for going to Shayoul Ghul, and not to discuss the seals. He's breaking the seals anyways, and doesn't plan to discuss it at all.

He was never going there to get permission. He says he's going to tell Egwene something, not discuss it with her, or ask her something. He says that she's going to be upset with what he tells her. At the end, he seems to already know exactly what she's doing, and was planning on it.

edit: Also, who cares what she thinks about the Seals? She's a 20 something, with about 2 years of experience in the world, and about as much fighting the Dark One. Rand/LTT is over 400, and has hundreds of those years fighting the Dark One, entirely besides actually making the seals in the first place. If anybody has say over when they should be broken, I'd say it's the guy who made them.

suttree
04-22-2012, 10:28 AM
It is nothing more than her own sense of entitlement which makes her believe that she should have a say in this.

My point wasn't that she should have veto power over it. I never said anything like that. I was merely saying that you can not expect her to just agree with Rand when he waltzes into the WT, announces something like that and refuses to discuss it. By nature of her position she almost has to oppose something like that. He obviously antagonized her on purpose, to my mind it would have been far better if he put Min together with the WT library in order to research the problem and explained it all. I'm sure Baerlon Community College has a great course on the seals but come on. Then we wouldn't have gotten the reaction we did. As others have noted however, he probably wanted her to gather all the armies. Not sure why he felt he needed to go about it that way though.


Do you have evidence for this?

Like, you know, actual quotes?


ToM
"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul...."Very well," Egwene said.

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.



I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case tens of thousands of Trollocs pour out of the Waygate at Tar Valon, let alone all the others all across the land.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case the DO breaks the last Seals half an hour after she's convinced Rand not to do that.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made to counter whatever it is that Demandred is cooking up.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made for actually holding the line at the Borderlands.


You really are hilarious sometimes mate. When I read Demandred added to that list I spit coffee all over my mac. I'm not aware of any one in the world who has made those plans!!!(no one knows what he is up to and there is zero way to find out, you have a knack for finding the most ludicrous scenario and presenting it) Egwene has been gathering intelligence on what to do with the Borderland situation however.

If they get to the FoM, Min has figured out what to do and Rand lays out his reasoning I can't imagine Egwene trying to stop him. If she does I will condemn her as much as anyone. What we can't do however is say her reaction was unreasonable given Rand's mental state just before and his refusal to discuss the situation. Not to mention all he has at this point is break the seals and pray that Min has found an answer.

fionwe1987
04-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Well, Rand could also have broken the Seals without informing her in advance. Then she wouldn't have had to sign off on it.
True, but since the entire point of Rand's plot arc till tGS was about how to be a good leader and savior, excluding from the decision making process the one person who could seriously put the breaks on his plans if she so chose is hardly a great idea right?
Or the DO could do it. He has proven in the past that he has that ability. Do you think he would refrain from breaking the remaining Seals if Egwene refuses to sign off on it?
What has that got to do with anything? Of course he can break them. The point is that maybe he can be defeated before he does so.
So, what actual gain could be gotten by anyone but Egwene if she is given such a veto power over breaking those Seals, and who else (Windfinders, Tuon, Tinkers, the Ogier, Galad and Asunawa, Narg Reborn, to name but a few parties) should be given veto power on this?
Egwene doesn't have a veto. She's behaving more like Secretary General than a veto holding member. She's collecting a unified opposition to let Rand know that breaking the Seals can't be a unilateral decision which is made with neither explanation nor planning.
It is nothing more than her own sense of entitlement which makes her believe that she should have a say in this.
Oh... and the other monarchs who agree to join her in Merillor and support her arguments... they're all entitled morons too? Everyone has a say in this. Egwene herself put it best:

"But the war against the Shadow is more vast than any one person. It is greater than you or I, greater than the White Tower. It is the war of all life and creation, from the most destitute of beggars to the most powerful of queens."

This is the fate of the world, and it affects everyone. Egwene, speaking as the closest thing Randland has to an institutionalized mulitlateral leader, doesn't just have the right, but the responsibility to ask the Dragon Reborn what his plans are for the fate of the world, and to oppose him if he declares he'll do as he pleases without explanation.

Do you have evidence for this?
Didn't he provide a quote right after he said this?

Like, you know, actual quotes?

All I've seen is that she intends to confront Rand, and stop him from trying it the way he thinks might have a chance.
Get an actual explanation of his plan first, I think...
I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case tens of thousands of Trollocs pour out of the Waygate at Tar Valon, let alone all the others all across the land.
Does this have to be specifically mentioned? Are we assuming her general, Gareth Bryne, is moronic enough to ignore such an obvious avenue of attack? Unlike Caemlyn, do remember that the Waygate at Tar Valon is located in an open grove, and its presence is well known to the Aes Sedai.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made in case the DO breaks the last Seals half an hour after she's convinced Rand not to do that.
I'm not aware of plans Rand has made if the DO broke the Seals while he was playing games in Merillor either. Doesn't mean he doesn't have 'em.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made to counter whatever it is that Demandred is cooking up.
And Rand has? For the moment, Egwene is already probably undercutting Demandred's plans quite well by collecting all the major armies together.
I'm not aware of any plans she has made for actually holding the line at the Borderlands.
And you're aware of such plans from Rand? And you seriously think that Nynaeve would badger the near-insane Rand about LAn and Tarwin's Gap, but not Egwene? Do you think Egwene's E&E network is working double time to keep track of Borderland incursions for absolutely no reason at all? After all, she doesn't seem surprised at all when Silviana says "The invasion has begun". They talk of it as an event foreseen and anticipated.
In short: I do not know of any plans she has actually made considering the actual Last Battle. Only political machinations considering other AS, other (mostly female) channelers, and stopping Rand al'Thor from doing what he considers necessary have been on her mind.
No. You just don't know her plans, just like you don't know Rand's plans. We have no idea what plans she has for the Seanchan either, but we'd be idiots to assume she doesn't have any if they Travel into Tar Valon. We have no idea why she's suddenly able to quote ancient Brown scholars who weren't Amyrlins. We don't know if, like she had some Sitters research Mesaana, she has others looking into the Seals and related issues. We don't know how she has been using Need in TAR. We don't know what she means when she says "arguments against breaking the Seals". We don't know how many women have had accelerated training and are being quickly raised to Aes Sedai, but like in all the other cases, we have hints, and that is all we have. The authors have kept the plans of the two most powerful players at Merrilor more or less completely secret.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2012, 11:46 AM
I was merely saying that you can not expect her to just agree with Rand when he waltzes into the WT, announces something like that and refuses to discuss it. By nature of her position she almost has to oppose something like that.
Which, neatly, prevents her from raising any other issues which she might've considered important enough to discuss with him. So by dropping this bombshell, he manipulates her into doing a load of work for him and into not bothering him about other things at the same time. Am I supposed to be amazed at her competence when it came to falling for this ploy?

He obviously antagonized her on purpose, to my mind it would have been far better if he put Min together with the WT library in order to research the problem and explained it all.
Assuming, of course, that the AS would let her go there. And, in addition, assuming that he would not have to wage war on them in order to get her back.
Two assumptions which I don't fault him for not making.

As others have noted however, he probably wanted her to gather all the armies. Not sure why he felt he needed to go about it that way though.
Because it would work, and trying to ask her straight out to do this would not have worked at all.

But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.
That is apparently the sum total of her plan. Gather all forces of the Light in one place (where they could be all annihilated at one stroke, presumably) while leaving all the rest of the world to the Shadow.

You really are hilarious sometimes mate. When I read Demandred added to that list I spit coffee all over my mac. I'm not aware of any one in the world who has made those plans!!!
Considering the fact that they knew it is coming, that seems a bit of an oversight.

Egwene also knows that Demandred is totally unaccounted for. She knows that he was reputed to be almost as competent as LTT had been. And she knows that the less competent Mesaana was already a very big challenge for her, the entire White Tower, and a couple of helpful Wise Ones.
Egwene should know that she should be planning for meeting those Shadow underlings, so that the Rand can focus on fighting the actual threat: the DO. Leaving it all to Rand, and then expecting to be able to pick up the pieces and be an important leader after TG seems a tad cynical to me.

True, but since the entire point of Rand's plot arc till tGS was about how to be a good leader and savior, excluding from the decision making process the one person who could seriously put the breaks on his plans if she so chose is hardly a great idea right?
1. She can't put the brakes on his plans.
2. She has been deliberately and knowingly excluding herself from his decision making. She avoided meeting the DR ever since she became Amyrlin.

What has that got to do with anything? Of course he can break them. The point is that maybe he can be defeated before he does so.
Now that's good, solid, unsubstantiated speculation.

We have no reason at all to think for even one moment that the DO could be defeated if he doesn't come out of his prison. We do not have any reason to think that it would be possible to patch up the hole in that prison while those Seals are intact; all we have here is Herid Fel's suggestion that it would not be possible.
Yet you're now willing to gamble all on the assumption that letting the DO pick the perfect time for the fight would be a sporting idea.

Egwene doesn't have a veto. She's behaving more like Secretary General than a veto holding member. She's collecting a unified opposition to let Rand know that breaking the Seals can't be a unilateral decision which is made with neither explanation nor planning.
Why can't it be?
He put them in place. He can remove them (they can not actually stop him).

Oh... and the other monarchs who agree to join her in Merillor and support her arguments... they're all entitled morons too?
A lot of them are, yet. However, I'm not nearly as confident as you are that all that many of them would actually turn against Rand and support Egwene.

The Borderlanders won't. They have in their own prophecy confirmation that Rand's idea is correct.
Darlin probably will support Rand, I think. Though he is a bit of an unknown.
Perrin will support Rand, and so will Perrin's pet queen.
Rand will support Rand, so he has the crown of Illian behind him too.
Elayne may very well support Rand too. If she has to decide who she trusts more, I'm not at all sure that she'd go with Egwene.
That leaves king Roedran, who may very well be Demandred. I don't think he would support Rand, but I'm not sure he would come to be counted either.
Oh, and Fortuona. Will she side with the DR (or order him to break the Seals, thus making him side with her) or will she obey the orders of a marath'damane? Tough question, this one.

Does this have to be specifically mentioned? Are we assuming her general, Gareth Bryne, is moronic enough to ignore such an obvious avenue of attack? Unlike Caemlyn, do remember that the Waygate at Tar Valon is located in an open grove, and its presence is well known to the Aes Sedai.
It wouldn't have to be explicitly mentioned, perhaps, but as far as I know, there's no indication that they have considered anything about potential invasion routes at all.

We know (from hints about maps he was studying now and then) that Rand has given it some thought.
We know (from countless chapters on it) that Egwene has thought about the presence of Shadow forces in the WT. We do not know that she has had any thought on the situation outside the immediate AS area.

I'm not aware of plans Rand has made if the DO broke the Seals while he was playing games in Merillor either. Doesn't mean he doesn't have 'em.
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he has some reason to assume the DO can't do it any sooner than that, but could do it later, if he so chose.
Or maybe he just reasons that if (when) the unexpected happens, then he'll have to deal with that. That is not the same as making no plans at all, though.

And Rand has? For the moment, Egwene is already probably undercutting Demandred's plans quite well by collecting all the major armies together.
How so?
If Demandred plopped the Far Madding ter'angreal on top of them, and then put a bunch of Dreadlords around it, then he could have all those armies starve to death while his forces conquered all the rest of the world.

And you're aware of such plans from Rand? And you seriously think that Nynaeve would badger the near-insane Rand about LAn and Tarwin's Gap, but not Egwene? Do you think Egwene's E&E network is working double time to keep track of Borderland incursions for absolutely no reason at all? After all, she doesn't seem surprised at all when Silviana says "The invasion has begun". They talk of it as an event foreseen and anticipated.
Yet, as far as we know, there weren't dozens of Sisters in Maradon. There weren't any AS supporting Lan in his confrontation, so if she is planning to do anything about it, then she's leaving it very much to the last minute.

Egwene has been focusing on the small goal of gaining the WT while ignoring the large one of saving the world for months, possibly years. And then she complains when the one who has been running around trying to save the world tells her a bit of what he intends to do further.

fionwe1987
04-22-2012, 02:10 PM
The sheer, ignorant craptitude of this post was amazing to behold.
Which, neatly, prevents her from raising any other issues which she might've considered important enough to discuss with him. So by dropping this bombshell, he manipulates her into doing a load of work for him and into not bothering him about other things at the same time. Am I supposed to be amazed at her competence when it came to falling for this ploy?
Except Egwene didn't "fall" for this "ploy":

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan." "That is why I came to you. To let you plan."
He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullhead-edness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things, the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."
"We can speak of that when we next meet." She frowned at him.

There was no ploy here. Rand stubbornly refused to discuss anything, and rather that use that stubbornness as justification to hold him against his will, Egwene decided to wait for a month as he asked. If there are important things that Egwene could have told him that Rand refused to hear, the fault is entirely his.

Assuming, of course, that the AS would let her go there. And, in addition, assuming that he would not have to wage war on them in order to get her back.
Two assumptions which I don't fault him for not making.
Right. Because kidnapping her friend is something Egwene will be cool with. Because she has trolloc horns, and sleeps with Myrdraal, and is in love with the Dark One... :rolleyes:

Because it would work, and trying to ask her straight out to do this would not have worked at all.
Ummm... why?

That is apparently the sum total of her plan. Gather all forces of the Light in one place (where they could be all annihilated at one stroke, presumably) while leaving all the rest of the world to the Shadow.
Excuse me? They're going to be in a central, defensible location from which they can Travel anywhere. This way, they won't be taken out piecemeal, but can instead attack back at the Shadow in an extremely mobile and coordinated way. Same with the Seanchan.

Not to mention the fact that this exact thing was also Rand's plan. Why not accuse him of being an idiot too, if you aren't a hypocrite?

Considering the fact that they knew it is coming, that seems a bit of an oversight.
What in the world does that mean? They can only make general plans against Demandred, not specific ones, since his plans aren't known to any of them, including Rand. Creating a central base that is well located to move troops to the Blight and any other southern location where an attack arrives is the best move either of them could make against unknown plans from Demandred.

Egwene also knows that Demandred is totally unaccounted for. She knows that he was reputed to be almost as competent as LTT had been. And she knows that the less competent Mesaana was already a very big challenge for her, the entire White Tower, and a couple of helpful Wise Ones.
Egwene should know that she should be planning for meeting those Shadow underlings, so that the Rand can focus on fighting the actual threat: the DO. Leaving it all to Rand, and then expecting to be able to pick up the pieces and be an important leader after TG seems a tad cynical to me.
And you know she has no plans to meet the Shadow, how? I mean, I can understand serious differences of opinion over Egwene's character. But exactly when has she twiddled her thumbs? When has sitting back and letting events overtake her been her MO?

1. She can't put the brakes on his plans.
Care to offer up some evidence?
2. She has been deliberately and knowingly excluding herself from his decision making. She avoided meeting the DR ever since she became Amyrlin.
And there were good reasons for that that were clearly stated in the text. Go read those before you start hurling accusations will you?

Now that's good, solid, unsubstantiated speculation.
As opposed to scientifically proven fact that the Seals need to come off before there is a plan to reseal the DO? :rolleyes:

We have no reason at all to think for even one moment that the DO could be defeated if he doesn't come out of his prison.
But that isn't what the argument is about. The question is, does it make sense to break the Seals right now, before Rand has an actual plan to defeat the DO?

We do not have any reason to think that it would be possible to patch up the hole in that prison while those Seals are intact; all we have here is Herid Fel's suggestion that it would not be possible.
Actually, we have a note of dubious provenance that claims he agrees with Rand. Face to face, he was incredulous that anyone would want to break the Seals.

Yet you're now willing to gamble all on the assumption that letting the DO pick the perfect time for the fight would be a sporting idea.
Actually, no. All I'm saying is that this needs to be discussed by the main characters, and their various bits of knowledge pooled before they reach a decision.

Why can't it be?
He put them in place. He can remove them (they can not actually stop him).
This isn't personal money he put into a bank that he can withdraw when he likes. Can he now also put back the taint on saidin since he removed it?

A lot of them are, yet. However, I'm not nearly as confident as you are that all that many of them would actually turn against Rand and support Egwene.
Yeah... except the whole event is being set up as a parallel of the Fateful Concord. So I wouldn't write off Egwene quite just yet.

The Borderlanders won't. They have in their own prophecy confirmation that Rand's idea is correct.
Yet they were horrified at the suggestion of what Rand was planning.
Darlin probably will support Rand, I think. Though he is a bit of an unknown.
Unknown? His letter made his position clear, I thought.
Perrin will support Rand, and so will Perrin's pet queen.
Perhaps. But Perrin doesn't yet know Rand wants to Break the Seals before coming up with a plan to reseal the DO.
Rand will support Rand, so he has the crown of Illian behind him too.
Except Gregorin brought a huge Illianer army at Egwene's command...
Elayne may very well support Rand too. If she has to decide who she trusts more, I'm not at all sure that she'd go with Egwene.
Except she's already stated she thinks Rand's plan is stupid, and that she supports Egwene. You can ignore the text all you want to make yourself feel that you're right. That doesn't make it so.
That leaves king Roedran, who may very well be Demandred. I don't think he would support Rand, but I'm not sure he would come to be counted either.
Roedran didn't send anyone to Merillor. Whoever he is, he is irrelevant. However, Egwene has the support of the Wise Ones, who will vouch for her Dream's authenticity. She has the support of the Sea Folk. She will probably have Aviendha's support, especially against the "Dragon's Peace" that Rand seems ready to enforce.
Oh, and Fortuona. Will she side with the DR (or order him to break the Seals, thus making him side with her) or will she obey the orders of a marath'damane? Tough question, this one.
Answered by Egwene's dream where she and a Seanchan woman are confronting Rand together...

It wouldn't have to be explicitly mentioned, perhaps, but as far as I know, there's no indication that they have considered anything about potential invasion routes at all.
Again. Read. The. Book!
The walls were papered with maps of Tar Valon, Andor, Cairhien and surrounding regions. Many bore recent notations in red chalk. Bryne was preparing for war. The notations made it clear he felt he'd eventually have to defend Tar Valon itself against Trollocs. Several maps showed villages across the northern part of the countryside, listing their fortifications, if any, and their loyalty to Tar Valon. They'd be used for
supply dumps and forward positions. Another map had circles pointing out ancient watchtowers, fortifications and ruins.
There was a methodical inevitability to Bryne's calculations, and a sense of urgency. He
wasn't looking to build fortifications, but to use those already in place. He was moving
troops into the villages he felt most useful; another map showed progress in active recruitment.

We know (from hints about maps he was studying now and then) that Rand has given it some thought.
We know (from countless chapters on it) that Egwene has thought about the presence of Shadow forces in the WT. We do not know that she has had any thought on the situation outside the immediate AS area.
Yeah, no. You just didn't pay attention to the books.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he has some reason to assume the DO can't do it any sooner than that, but could do it later, if he so chose.
Or maybe he just reasons that if (when) the unexpected happens, then he'll have to deal with that. That is not the same as making no plans at all, though.
See, the hypocrisy here is astounding. You're willing to assume Rand has plans even though there are no hints he does. But despite hints that Egwene does have plans, you flat out state that she doesn't have any!

How so?
If Demandred plopped the Far Madding ter'angreal on top of them, and then put a bunch of Dreadlords around it, then he could have all those armies starve to death while his forces conquered all the rest of the world.
Plot the Far Madding ter'angreal? How is this feat to be achieved in an age without cranes, pray? How is it to be transported from Far Madding to the border of Shienar? And if Demandred has some magical methods to do so that has so far not been revealed in the books, how in the world is Egwene supposed to prepare for it? Might as well ask what Rand would do if a thermonuclear bomb goes off on top of him.

Yet, as far as we know, there weren't dozens of Sisters in Maradon. There weren't any AS supporting Lan in his confrontation, so if she is planning to do anything about it, then she's leaving it very much to the last minute.
Very probable. What they're seeing now in the Borderlands are skirmishes compared to what will soon follow. I'm fairly certain Egwene is holding back the bulk of her strength for the true push at Shayol Ghul rather than scattering her forces to deal with minor battles. And she also has the Seanchan to consider. She knows they have Traveling now. Should she move forces into the Borderlands, and they start attacking Tar Valon and other cities in that area, her forces will be pressed from the North and the South, only to be crushed. She also has to account for the Black Tower, which she has reasons to be suspicious of. Unlike Rand's moronic refusal till recently to view it as a threat, she has always been aware of it as a necessary evil that could balloon into a major threat. And her emissaries have been refused entry into it, despite permission from the DR.

So can you give me any reason, in the face of all these threats in various directions, why she should immediately send hundreds of Aes Sedai to the Borderlands to deal with border incursions that, for the moment, are being held back by Saldea, Kandor and Arafel, even with their depleted strengths?

Egwene has been focusing on the small goal of gaining the WT while ignoring the large one of saving the world for months, possibly years. And then she complains when the one who has been running around trying to save the world tells her a bit of what he intends to do further.
She complains because he didn't say enough. And given the bang up job Rand had done till that moment, and given that she had no way of knowing he had an epiphany and was drastically changed, her response to his announcement that he was doing something incredibly risky was measured and subdued, if anything.

Heinz
04-23-2012, 04:36 PM
Couple of small points to insert.. I won't compete with the novels (good reads on a slow afternoon at work though).

One item I realized while doing a re-listen to the series (I did say it was slow at work..), the last physical glimpse Egwene herself has of Rand, is in LoC as he's first 'discovering' LTT in his head. He begins to talk to himself, quite obviously, as she's leaving the room. A short time later, she pulls her quasi-Traveling trick in T'A'R, becomes Amyrlin, and has her first view of him again here immediately post-VoG (no one pf the main characters have seen him yet in the waking world) where he's talking about breaking the Seals. From her PoV, I understand her hesitation at breaking the Seals, which for 3500 years have been regarded (if nowhere else because other places forgot them, then in the White Tower) as the only thing holding the world back from destruction by the DO, without understanding what Rand's plan is. (Whether or not he knows, doesn't impact her, since she isn't aware of his knowledge on this anyway.)

Second point.. overall I was irritated at the lack of mentioning of plans regarding the Last Battle, defeating the Dark One, etc etc as well. A strategist at heart, I was looking for a bit more. In any case, I do recall Gareth Bryne was planning defenses and such, and the Hall was taking over the war, and we have no idea what they are or are not doing with it. Saerin seems fairly competent in this, Captain-General of Green (name escaping me at the moment, Ad-something?) suffered from typical Aes Sedai overconfidence but I think has been knocked down a few runs and is likely not ignoring it, and Romanda and Leleane (sp?) politic like crazy but do not seem total idiotns themselves, so I doubt 'the war' is being ignored. I saw a few other tidbits of preparations mentioned in the various quotes flying around on this thread about eyes and ears, others. They are tidbits, but they are there to hint that plans are being made, we're just not seeing them.

Master Ablar
04-28-2012, 04:00 PM
As opposed to scientifically proven fact that the Seals need to come off before there is a plan to reseal the DO? :rolleyes:


That's not really relevant seeing as it's not why Egwene opposes Rand.


But that isn't what the argument is about. The question is, does it make sense to break the Seals right now, before Rand has an actual plan to defeat the DO?


No it isn't. Egwene has never once in the entire book doubted Rand's ability to seal away the DO, nor has she eveer worried about what Rand would do after the seals were broken. However, she has said a number of times that breaking the seals was madness/insane. In fact she tell Nyneave and Elayne precisely why she opposes Rand, which is that she does not believe that the seals need to be broken for Rand to reseal the DO. And the problem is that she hasn't given any reason for this belief. If she actually had arguments to back up her belief that the seals don't need to be broken, then there would not be an issue. However, she's never explained that belief, and she hasn't considered the posibility of Rand being right about the seals either.


Actually, we have a note of dubious provenance that claims he agrees with Rand. Face to face, he was incredulous that anyone would want to break the Seals.


Regardless, it should be discussed instead of immediately dismissed out of hand as folly as Egwene did.


Actually, no. All I'm saying is that this needs to be discussed by the main characters, and their various bits of knowledge pooled before they reach a decision.


It does, but that's not what Egwene is planning on doing. She's planning on opposing him, because she already believes he's wrong. She doesn't want an explanation.


Yeah... except the whole event is being set up as a parallel of the Fateful Concord. So I wouldn't write off Egwene quite just yet.


Of all those gathered only the Aes Sedai and Elayne clearly oppose Rand. The rest either support him, or are waiting to hear his explanation.


Yet they were horrified at the suggestion of what Rand was planning.


Rand is also sleeping in their camp and brought them to the FoM. Cadsuane also considers them to be under his banner. They'll probably want to hear why he wants to break the seals, but seeing as their own prophecy seems to support him, they probably won't be outright opposing him.


Unknown? His letter made his position clear, I thought.


He said he wanted to discuss it. That's not opposition.


Perhaps. But Perrin doesn't yet know Rand wants to Break the Seals before coming up with a plan to reseal the DO.


Neither does Egwene or anyone else. It isn't the point of contention.


Except Gregorin brought a huge Illianer army at Egwene's command...


So did Darlin, and he wishes to discuss things first and foremost.


However, Egwene has the support of the Wise Ones, who will vouch for her Dream's authenticity.


They said it was disturbing news (which it is) and that they would consult with him on the matter. That's not opposition.


She has the support of the Sea Folk.


She does? Maybe I'm forgetting something but I don't remember her ever meeting with the Sea Folk over this. They met to talk of the exchange of channelers but they never discussed Rand and we certainly never saw the Sea Folk's oppinion on the matter.


She will probably have Aviendha's support, especially against the "Dragon's Peace" that Rand seems ready to enforce.


That's sort of a completely different subject though. It has nothing to do with whether or not the seals should be broken.


She complains because he didn't say enough. And given the bang up job Rand had done till that moment, and given that she had no way of knowing he had an epiphany and was drastically changed, her response to his announcement that he was doing something incredibly risky was measured and subdued, if anything.

It seems to me she should be waiting to learn exactly why Rand thinks the seals should be broken before deciding he's wrong. I found her response somewhat dissapointing, if predictable, at least to Rand.

suttree
04-28-2012, 05:31 PM
It does, but that's not what Egwene is planning on doing. She's planning on opposing him, because she already believes he's wrong. She doesn't want an explanation.

She has already agreed to discuss things at the FoM. Not sure why you continuously insist that she will refuse to listen if Rand actually talks sense.

BTW you keep hounding Egwene for thinking the seals don't need to be broken but Rand has no idea whatsoever of what to do after he does. There is knowledge lacking on both sides and he has purposely not involved her in what he thinks might work(if Min can figure it out) in order to provoke this response.

Master Ablar
04-28-2012, 07:38 PM
She has already agreed to discuss things at the FoM. Not sure why you continuously insist that she will refuse to listen if Rand actually talks sense.


Of course she'll listen if Rand talks sense, that I've no doubt about. And she doesn't really have any choice but to discuss things.

To me the problem is that she has already decided that he is wrong before listening to him. From her point of view this meeting is an oppurtunity for her to stop him, whereas she should see it as an oppurtunity for him to explain why breaking the seals is neccesary, after which, once she has full knowledge of his intentions and reasons, she can decide what the right course of action is. Yes, of course, she'll probably change her mind once Rand explains himself. But the opposition between the two is something that could have been avoided had Egwene been, in my opinion, a little more reasonable.

Now, if it was just Rand and Egwene, it wouldn't be a big deal. But the issue is that she's involved all the other leaders and therefore caused division among the forces the Light. Had she instead called them all to the FoM to simply discuss the issue rather than take side, that could have been avoided. And it also makes herself and the WT look bad if they are proved wrong, especially since Egwene has no real argument to oppose Rand with. That is, she does not have any proof that the seals do not have to be broken. Protecting the reputation of the WT (and her own), is of lesser importance but it's still something she should have thought about. And she had a month to think about it.

Now it's quite possible, perhaps even likely, that this will quickly be forgotten with what is to come. But whether there are consequences for the mistake or not is not what is most important to me. Consequences don't change whether an action was right or wrong, sensible or foolish.


BTW you keep hounding Egwene for thinking the seals don't need to be broken but Rand has no idea whatsoever of what to do after he does.


I can only hope there's more to it than what we know at the moment, because otherwise it seems like a pretty stupid idea to break the seals without knowing what to do afterwards. Wanting to fight before the DO getting too powerful is a good idea. Doing so without any idea how to fight is not.


There is knowledge lacking on both sides and he has purposely not involved her in what he thinks might work(if Min can figure it out) in order to provoke this response.

Egwene's reaction is to Rand wanting to break the seals, and that's something that Rand knows he has to do. It's what happens afterwards that needs to be figured out.

It's hard to say exactly what Rand wants. If he didn't lie to Nyneave, then he does not want Egwene to oppose him. He appears to consider that opposition as inevitable however. However, I agree that he clearly provoked her. But that does not justify her acting that way. It simply means that Rand is partly responsible for Egwene's actions. Whether he had a good reason for provoking her is what is not clear.

fionwe1987
04-28-2012, 07:53 PM
You seem to have very poor memory of the books. For one thing, Egwene has a very good reason to oppose Rand: her Dream.

For another, she asked for a private discussion on the issue right away. Rand refused, while also indicating he's not going to be moved in this (his one pov also process this).

Once Rand explains that he's planning to do this before he has a plan to defeat the DO, Egwene will have even more reason to oppose him. And she'll probably end recreating a modern version of the Fateful Concord. Rand's plan to use his reputation for irrationality to scare everyone into following him is only going to aid Egwene.

Master Ablar
04-28-2012, 08:24 PM
For one thing, Egwene has a very good reason to oppose Rand: her Dream.


The only thing her dream clearly tells her is that Rand will break the seals. It doesn't say whether it's right or wrong to do so.


For another, she asked for a private discussion on the issue right away.


Yes and he told her they would talk about it at the FoM.


Rand refused, while also indicating he's not going to be moved in this (his one pov also process this).


He told her what he believed needed to be done, nothing more. He then said he would explain himself at tFoM. Whether he can be moved or not doesn't change the fact that he may be right, a possibility that Egwene has discarded simply on the basis that the idea that breaking the seals in order to properly reseal the DO sounds insane to her.


Once Rand explains that he's planning to do this before he has a plan to defeat the DO, Egwene will have even more reason to oppose him. And she'll probably end recreating a modern version of the Fateful Concord. Rand's plan to use his reputation for irrationality to scare everyone into following him is only going to aid Egwene.


You're talking about what happens after Egwene learns he doesn't know how to reseal the DO, but still intends to break the seals. What does this have to do with the present situation?

If Egwene opposes him then, I'll be in full agreement (unless Rand has a really good reason that he has for some reason kept hidden.) But right now she's opposing him because she thinks breaking the seals is not neccessary in order to reseal the DO. In her own words:

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

What precisely is she basing herself on, to make this statement? What makes her think that breaking the seals is not neccessary?

suttree
04-28-2012, 09:20 PM
I can only hope there's more to it than what we know at the moment, because otherwise it seems like a pretty stupid idea to break the seals without knowing what to do afterwards. Wanting to fight before the DO getting too powerful is a good idea. Doing so without any idea how to fight is not.


But we know for fact that there isn't more to it...

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me.

Flinn Sedai
04-28-2012, 09:22 PM
You seem to have very poor memory of the books. For one thing, Egwene has a very good reason to oppose Rand: her Dream.

What Dream tells her to viscerally oppose Rand?

For another, she asked for a private discussion on the issue right away. Rand refused, while also indicating he's not going to be moved in this (his one pov also process this).

So, after Egwene already told him that she was just going to oppose him no matter what, what should he have not done, to have a meaningless discussion with her?

Once Rand explains that he's planning to do this before he has a plan to defeat the DO, Egwene will have even more reason to oppose him. And she'll probably end recreating a modern version of the Fateful Concord. Rand's plan to use his reputation for irrationality to scare everyone into following him is only going to aid Egwene.

Yep. We all know how Rand is playing up his irrationality, post-VoG. He's like a wildman. :p

And Rand does have a good idea on how to fight the Dark One. You know, given that he led the forces of the Light against the Shadow for about 100 years, and ended up being the one to seal him away.

But you're right. Egwene certainly knows more about what to do. After all, she has a significant amount of more experience fighting the Dark One. What's that? She doesn't have any?

Oh...

Well, then surely she's consulted the most knowledgeable people on the Dark One, before making a decision. She's probably held meetings about fighting the Dark One, inviting the most powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable Aes Sedai. A meeting of minds, so to speak. Huh? She intentionally forbade them from getting involved?

Alright, well, she's got good reasons, I'm sure. Oh, I got it. She's one of the most experienced, and learned in the One Power, herself... I'm sorry, what's that? She has only been learning the Power for about 2-3 years?

That's... odd. Well, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. She only has been learning the Power for a couple years, because she spent the rest of her time learning all about the world, and becoming a scholar.

Sorry, come again? She spent almost her entirely life in a backwater village, where she didn't even know she was part of a Kingdom, and thought the Dark One and Forsaken were just myths?

Okay, this is getting harder, but I'm going to remain positive on this. So, she's a neophyte to both the world, and the Power, banned the knowledgeable from contributing to her decision-making, has absolutely no experience actually fighting the Dark One...

But so what? At least she fully thought through her position. She set a lot of time to the side. Thought about it long and hard, didn't snap to judgement... Really confronted the matter cerebrally. What?! She made her decision in 30 seconds, based on just her gut feeling?!

Argh. Fine. At least she accepts the possibility that she's wrong...

maleshub
04-28-2012, 09:34 PM
It is amazing how much trust in the Rand - Egwene relationship is ignored. From the beginning of the books, there are many examples till the time Egwene was summoned to Salidar showing that they weren't opposites. Sure there is the flavor of Rand being a bull-headed mule and Egwene being Aes Sedai whole-heartedly; but looking closely at their actions shows a great deal of each one covering the other's back.

Master Ablar
04-28-2012, 10:06 PM
But we know for fact that there isn't more to it...

Not that. We know he doesn't know how to seal the bore (unless he's lied to both Egwene and Min, but I find that rather unlikely). What I'm hoping for is that he has a good reason for wanting to go ahead without a plan.

Is it just what he told Nyneave? That they need to fight the DO while they still have the strength? If so I can't agree. It's one thing to decide to take a risk and fight while they still have a chance. Acting before he has a plan though, amounts to giving the DO more power and... for what? Unless he actually gains something by breaking the seals (which is where I'm hoping there's more to it), then it simply doesn't make any sense to break the seals before having a plan. And to me that's just obvious which is why Rand deciding to break the seals without a plan is so odd in my opinion. While Rand has occasionally done some less than smart things, overall he's pretty sensible, and breaking the seals hoping for a miracle isn't very sensible.

What is more, those on his side, like Cadsuane, don't seem worried about that either. So either everyone is assuming that Rand's got this covered, or else we're missing something. Or everyone who knows of Rand's intentions, including Rand of course, are failing enormously in their judgment.

As Rand and his current state, as well as his knowledge and intentions, are somewhat of a mystery, I'm just hoping there's going to be some serious answers at the FoM.

suttree
04-28-2012, 10:18 PM
So, after Egwene already told him that she was just going to oppose him no matter what, what should he have not done, to have a meaningless discussion with her?

Don't try to turn things around, Egwene wanted to discuss it and Rand refused.

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."


He went straight from DM to TV and you expect Egwene to know he has miraculously changed from the Dark Rand she has been receiving reports on? No sane person can fault her for opposing him in this meeting given his actions leading up to the event. In fact it is her duty as Amrylin to do so. People can debate her subsequent decisions all they want, but she did what she had to here.

Also I always find it humorous how everyone talks of her decisions as if she will not discuss things at the FoM. Unless she shows up and tries to stop him immediately no decision has been made. Lastly all these claims of her ignorance and you are forgetting one thing. Rand is relying on MIN to figure out how to seal the bore!!! He has no clue what to do after breaking the seals. You reference his memories as if that means something but Rand has already admitted the plan was flawed and he can't do it the same way. Please just keep what actually happened in the text in perspective and stop condemning people on "what if" scenarios.


As Rand and his current state, as well as his knowledge and intentions, are somewhat of a mystery, I'm just hoping there's going to be some serious answers at the FoM.

Agreed.

Grig
04-28-2012, 10:34 PM
The only thing her dream clearly tells her is that Rand will break the seals.

Her dream doesn't even clearly tell her that. She later interprets it that way, but during the dream itself there's no knowledge of the seal interpretation. I'm still partial to the interpretation of the dream referring to the Aiel.

fionwe1987
04-28-2012, 11:00 PM
I find it amusing that despite it being made clear in the books that it is a Dreamer's interpretation of her dream that matters, not anyone else's, people continue to insist that she's wrong!

And her Dream did end with a great sense of foreboding when Rand broke the Seals, so it isn't like she doesn't have excellent reason to oppose his plan.

What's more, the Pattern gave her that dream the moment Rand entered Tar Valon. Seems to me it is relaying a warning...

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 08:01 AM
I find it amusing that despite it being made clear in the books that it is a Dreamer's interpretation of her dream that matters, not anyone else's, people continue to insist that she's wrong!

And her Dream did end with a great sense of foreboding when Rand broke the Seals, so it isn't like she doesn't have excellent reason to oppose his plan.

What's more, the Pattern gave her that dream the moment Rand entered Tar Valon. Seems to me it is relaying a warning...

Except she didn't know what her dream meant when she first had it. So she didn't know instinctively what it meant. Only that it unsettled her. I don't know what the sense of foreboding is though. Rand cuts the ropes, globe breaks apart, dream end. Sure it doesn't sound very nice, just like breaking the seals, but the question is whether it's neccessary. That's something that the Dream doesn't tell her.

Her belief that the Dream was about Rand's plan to break the seals only came after she learned of it. She's applying her opinion on Rand's plan to her Dream, not the other way around. If her Dream was her reason for opposing Rand, then why did she not even mention it to anyone. Not to the Wise Ones, not to Elayne and Nyneave, and presumably not to Darlin either considering his letter makes no mention of her Dream.

In fact the only mention of her Dream is right after Rand tells her about his plan, which is when Egwene realizes that's what her dream was about. If she has interpreted her Dream, it's by applying her opinion to it, and we saw in the very same book that Perrin was wrong about his own vision concerning the Whitecloaks and Trollocs.

The Dream may well be a warning telling her that Rand intends to break the seals. It doesn't tell her whether it's a good idea or not, which in fact is something that Egwene herself has never claimed.

fionwe1987
04-29-2012, 10:06 AM
Except she didn't know what her dream meant when she first had it. So she didn't know instinctively what it meant. Only that it unsettled her.
She doesen't need to interpret dreams right away to e right about them. Look at the dream of Gawyn kneeling to her. She only correctly interprets it when she comes face to face with Gawyn and touches his head. Clearly, the interpretation of the symbols in a Dream can come to the Dreamer at a later stage.

I don't know what the sense of foreboding is though. Rand cuts the ropes, globe breaks apart, dream end. Sure it doesn't sound very nice, just like breaking the seals, but the question is whether it's neccessary. That's something that the Dream doesn't tell her.
No. But when a Dream ends in a way to make you feel freaked out, actually freaking out when the actual interpretation comes to you is hardly unreasonable. And in the face of the fact that this Dream unsettles her even more then the two previous Dreams, one which shows the Foresaken growing more powerful, and the other clearly showing her Mesaana damaging the White Tower, her response to this Dream is certainly a valid point to consider.
Her belief that the Dream was about Rand's plan to break the seals only came after she learned of it. She's applying her opinion on Rand's plan to her Dream, not the other way around. If her Dream was her reason for opposing Rand, then why did she not even mention it to anyone. Not to the Wise Ones, not to Elayne and Nyneave, and presumably not to Darlin either considering his letter makes no mention of her Dream.
That is fairly simple. She can more effectively use it in argument if she makes a dramatic revelation in the meeting. Spreading word now lessens the impact.
In fact the only mention of her Dream is right after Rand tells her about his plan, which is when Egwene realizes that's what her dream was about. If she has interpreted her Dream, it's by applying her opinion to it, and we saw in the very same book that Perrin was wrong about his own vision concerning the Whitecloaks and Trollocs.
She isn't "applying opinion"!

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."
Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. "Rand, no," she said.
Her objection comes after she interprets the dream, not before!

The Dream may well be a warning telling her that Rand intends to break the seals. It doesn't tell her whether it's a good idea or not, which in fact is something that Egwene herself has never claimed.
Except her sense of the Dream does matter, and it is the interpretation that makes her reject his plan. That she doesn't harp on it once Rand rejects her offer for a discussion right away is not proof she doesen't care to use the Dream! Like Rand, she is waiting for the meeting at the FOM to use it. And she has clearly stated she has "arguments" against Rand's plans multiple times in the books. She isn't just going to reject his plan based on no reason.

maleshub
04-29-2012, 12:32 PM
I've been wondering about this particular dream. It is a broken crystal sphere held together by leather ropes (if I remember correctly). It is lighted by 23 stars in the sky. I wonder how that is related to the Seals on the DO prison (3 remaining whose conditions are unknown). One thought I had was that this was pertaining to the nations of the world, or to world order or Aiel.

There is another dream she had in the first few books where she saw Rand walking towards a cavern mouth in a mountain crushing discs like the seals on the DO prison. I think this dream is more relevant to the situation than the crystal sphere.

fionwe1987
04-29-2012, 01:19 PM
I've been wondering about this particular dream. It is a broken crystal sphere held together by leather ropes (if I remember correctly). It is lighted by 23 stars in the sky. I wonder how that is related to the Seals on the DO prison (3 remaining whose conditions are unknown). One thought I had was that this was pertaining to the nations of the world, or to world order or Aiel.

There is another dream she had in the first few books where she saw Rand walking towards a cavern mouth in a mountain crushing discs like the seals on the DO prison. I think this dream is more relevant to the situation than the crystal sphere.
All this would be great if what we think mattered in this issue, but it doesn't. Take her dream of the Seanchan attack. Was anyone arguing the raven actually indicated the Shadow and not the Seanchan, like Silviana assumed? No. We were happy to take Egwene's view on the Dream, because it matched with what a majorty of the readers thought was going to happen.

But consider for a moment this Dream from a meta persepctive. It comes to Egwene just before she is given news of Rand's arrival in the White Tower. That kind of timing can't possibly be coincidental. It happened for a reason. A few pages later, the Dream convinces Egwene that Rand's plan is too risky. It sets the stage for a major meeting of the forces of the Light. It sets the stage for a repeat of the male-female divide that was seen before the end of the last Age.

Does anyone seriously belive this will be resolved with Egwene being told she interpreted her Dream wrong? Rand and Egwene's battle of wills is a metaphor for the greater male-female conflict that has plagued WoT society since the Dark One was first freed. Does anyone feel that the coming together of the Flame and the Fang, the restoration of balance to the genders, the reuniting of the estraged halves of the Aes Sedai, is going to happen by one of them proving the other wrong?

Or is it likely they both have part of the puzzle? Maybe Egwene's dream indicates that Rand's current plan is flawed, and that breaking the Seals before he has a complete plan to reseal the Bore will lead to disaster. Rand's idea that the seals do need to be broken may be right, but not his timing. Or maybe its some other compromise. But I can't see this ending with one of them being fully wrong and the other being fully right. And for that, Egwene's interpretation can't be wrong.

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 01:52 PM
No. But when a Dream ends in a way to make you feel freaked out, actually freaking out when the actual interpretation comes to you is hardly unreasonable. And in the face of the fact that this Dream unsettles her even more then the two previous Dreams, one which shows the Foresaken growing more powerful, and the other clearly showing her Mesaana damaging the White Tower, her response to this Dream is certainly a valid point to consider.


It is, but alone it's not a reason to oppose him. Breaking the seals is a scary thought, an unsettling one. But that doesn't mean it's not neccessary.


That is fairly simple. She can more effectively use it in argument if she makes a dramatic revelation in the meeting. Spreading word now lessens the impact.


Not giving her reason for opposing him also risks failing to gain support. Besides her dream doesn't tell her precisely why breaking the seals is a bad idea (assuming that it tells her even that). So that argument lacks impact anyway. It amounts to saying that she has a bad feeling about the plan, based solely on her Dream.


She isn't "applying opinion"!

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."
Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. "Rand, no," she said.
Her objection comes after she interprets the dream, not before!


At what point in that line does she think that the dream is telling her that breaking the seals is a bad idea? All I see in that line is that she realises that the dream is about Rand's plan to break the seals. I don't see any reason to assume that it isn't entirely her opinion that breaking the seals is a bad idea. Especially when she has never, whether in a conversation or in her thoughts, claimed her dream had convinced her that she should oppose him.

And even if her decision was based entirely on the "feeling" the Dream gave her, she still doesn't know why breaking the seals is a bad idea.


Except her sense of the Dream does matter, and it is the interpretation that makes her reject his plan. That she doesn't harp on it once Rand rejects her offer for a discussion right away is not proof she doesen't care to use the Dream! Like Rand, she is waiting for the meeting at the FOM to use it. And she has clearly stated she has "arguments" against Rand's plans multiple times in the books. She isn't just going to reject his plan based on no reason.

Not speaking to anyone about it is one thing. Not even thinking about is quite another. After her meeting with Rand she never even thought about her dream again, and yet this dream is supposed to be the main reason for which she opposes him.

And what arguments are those? The only argument she has ever given was when she told Nyneave and Elayne that Rand should be able to do it without breaking the seals. Apart from she has stated nothing except that his plan his madness and that he must be stopped.

So she does have a reason (that breaking the seals is not neccessary). The problem is she has no proof that it is correct. And on the other side Rand has not given her any proof that his plan is correct either. Therefore she should wait until the FoM to hear his reasons and then make her decision.

suttree
04-29-2012, 02:13 PM
Therefore she should wait until the FoM to hear his reasons and then make her decision.

Which is essentially what she is doing. We know she has arguments...

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

We also know what she views as her greater purpose in gathering the armies. There is nothing anywhere to indicate that she will not discuss it with him. If A. Min has figured out a plan on how to seal the bore. & B. Rand actually lays out a rational course of action. Then Egwene will likely fall right in line. As I've said all along, if those things happen and Egwene still refuses to go along with zero basis for doing so then I will be the first to condemn her.

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 04:10 PM
Which is essentially what she is doing. We know she has arguments...

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

We also know what she views as her greater purpose in gathering the armies. There is nothing anywhere to indicate that she will not discuss it with him. If A. Min has figured out a plan on how to seal the bore. & B. Rand actually lays out a rational course of action. Then Egwene will likely fall right in line. As I've said all along, if those things happen and Egwene still refuses to go along with zero basis for doing so then I will be the first to condemn her.

In the very quote you gave it says: "her arguments against breaking the seals". Clearly she's chosen a side, and that side is opposition. Yes she may change it based on what she hears on the FoM, but where was the neccessity in choosing a side prior to the meeting? She'll discuss it, but she already thinks he's wrong, which is where the problem is. It would have cost her nothing to stay neutral on the matter. Because she (and Rand as well by provoking her, even if he asks Nyneave to convince Egwene not to try and stop him) created a conlfict someone will end up being wrong on this matter. And that's a shame because the last thing the Light needs at the moment is stife and division. The armies could have been gathered without sides being taken.

I'm definitely interested in learning precisely what these arguments of hers are. Is it just: "too risky", "the DO could break free", or does she have what she considers actual proof that breaking the seals is not needed? Considering her conversation with Elayne and Nyneave I'm rather skeptical of that. Particularly the way she said that surely Rand can seal him away without breaking the seals. She states it as if it just seems obvious to her, and yet it really isn't.

maleshub
04-29-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm definitely interested in learning precisely what these arguments of hers are. Is it just: "too risky", "the DO could break free", or does she have what she considers actual proof that breaking the seals is not needed? Considering her conversation with Elayne and Nyneave I'm rather skeptical of that. Particularly the way she said that surely Rand can seal him away without breaking the seals. She states it as if it just seems obvious to her, and yet it really isn't.

Rand's declared, current course of action guarantees that the Seals will be broken, giving the DO a burst of extended influence. It does not guarantee the resealing of the Bore. And by Rand's admission, he doesn't know how to seal the Bore, yet.

Logically, Rand would have to come to the Field of Merrilor with 2 possible scenarios:
1- Present a solid plan to reseal the Bore; or
2- Delay the breaking of the Seals till a solid plan is formulated.

From an outside perspective, Rand will have support if his plan is feasible; but if it isn't and he risks going ahead with breaking the seals; then he must be stopped till a plan is formulated.

It is a matter of planning for all eventualities.

Another point is that Rand felt that he needed Egwene's help; and he went to her to provoke her into a course of action. If his main need was Saidar, he could have had his female channelers from the sworn Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Windfinders. He could have marshaled a couple of thousand female channelers from that pool. Yet, he went to White Tower! Why?

Terez
04-29-2012, 05:00 PM
1. When a Dreamer knows, she knows. When she doesn't know, your guess is as good as hers. In the case of the crystal globe, Egwene does not know.

2. The crystal globe represents the Aiel, and the ropes ji'e'toh.

maleshub
04-29-2012, 05:05 PM
1. When a Dreamer knows, she knows. When she doesn't know, your guess is as good as hers. In the case of the crystal globe, Egwene does not know.

2. The crystal globe represents the Aiel, and the ropes ji'e'toh.

Thanks! It certainly puts that dream in perspective and makes its interpretation easier.

Aviendha's visions have something called the council of the 22 and the stars lighting the crystal are 23. I don't know if the 23rd star is Rand or why only 22 members were in the visions. But it will be interesting to see how this unfolds in AMoL.

And that brings up Egwene's much earlier dream of Rand walking towards the Pit of Doom and stepping on shattered discs similar to the seals of the DO prison.

It seems like Egwene has to review her dreams notebook.

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 05:37 PM
Another point is that Rand felt that he needed Egwene's help; and he went to her to provoke her into a course of action. If his main need was Saidar, he could have had his female channelers from the sworn Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Windfinders. He could have marshaled a couple of thousand female channelers from that pool. Yet, he went to White Tower! Why?

Because he didn't have the time to devote to gathering the Monarchs and the armies, of the world. He knew it needed to be done, but he could not do it, himself. Simple answer. Get Egwene to do it.

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 05:38 PM
Rand's declared, current course of action guarantees that the Seals will be broken, giving the DO a burst of extended influence. It does not guarantee the resealing of the Bore. And by Rand's admission, he doesn't know how to seal the Bore, yet.

Logically, Rand would have to come to the Field of Merrilor with 2 possible scenarios:
1- Present a solid plan to reseal the Bore; or
2- Delay the breaking of the Seals till a solid plan is formulated.

From an outside perspective, Rand will have support if his plan is feasible; but if it isn't and he risks going ahead with breaking the seals; then he must be stopped till a plan is formulated.

It is a matter of planning for all eventualities.


I agree completely.


Another point is that Rand felt that he needed Egwene's help; and he went to her to provoke her into a course of action. If his main need was Saidar, he could have had his female channelers from the sworn Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Windfinders. He could have marshaled a couple of thousand female channelers from that pool. Yet, he went to White Tower! Why?


Hard to say without getting into his head.

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 05:43 PM
Because he didn't have the time to devote to gathering the Monarchs and the armies, of the world. He knew it needed to be done, but he could not do it, himself. Simple answer. Get Egwene to do it.

That seems the most obvious answer, but would it really have taken that much time? Tear, Illian, the Aiel would all have come at his word. He took care of the borderlanders in a day. He has both the King of Arad Doman and Ituralde. Perrin has Ghealdan covered. That just leaves Elayne and the WT.

Perhaps he just didn't care about antagonizing anyone since he's going to do what he wants to do anyway

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 05:49 PM
Aviendha's visions have something called the council of the 22 and the stars lighting the crystal are 23. I don't know if the 23rd star is Rand or why only 22 members were in the visions. But it will be interesting to see how this unfolds in AMoL.

I completely missed that, about the visions.

Hrmmmmm...

11 remaining Aiel Clans
White Tower
Whitecloaks
Andor
Illian
Arad Domon
Cairhien
Saldaea
Shienar
Arafel
Kandor
Seanchan

That's 22, plus Rand.

Maybe that's what the 23 are?

edit: Whoops, missed Ghealdan. That's 23. Seems semi-plausible.

Terez
04-29-2012, 05:53 PM
The Council of 22 is one clan chief and one Wise One for each remaining clan. The Dragon's Blood is probably the 23rd star.

Master Ablar
04-29-2012, 05:57 PM
I completely missed that, about the visions.

Hrmmmmm...

11 remaining Aiel Clans
White Tower
Whitecloaks
Andor
Illian
Arad Domon
Cairhien
Saldaea
Shienar
Arafel
Kandor
Seanchan

That's 22, plus Rand.

Maybe that's what the 23 are?

edit: Whoops, missed Ghealdan. That's 23. Seems semi-plausible.

You also missed Tear. And Murandy. And you might also add the Black Tower.

Flinn Sedai
04-29-2012, 05:59 PM
You also missed Tear. And Murandy. And you might also add the Black Tower.

I was only counting the ones that are fighting for the Light, and we all know what's going on in Murandy.

But yeah, I missed Tear, and I was still wrong. :p

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2012, 04:10 AM
Logically, Rand would have to come to the Field of Merrilor with 2 possible scenarios:
1- Present a solid plan to reseal the Bore; or
2- Delay the breaking of the Seals till a solid plan is formulated.
A cunning plan which cannot fail.
Assuming, of course, that number 2 is realistic at all. So far, we know that the DO has been able to break a significant number of Seals from inside his prison. We also know that no one has any idea at all how to stop him from doing that again if he so chooses. Which of course means that they just plain can not delay the breaking of the Seals if the DO decides to break them.

Thus, the real options are:
1- Go with the approach which the DR selects. This may be a very long shot; that's actually what the KC says will be the case.
2- Delay the breaking of the Seals until the DO decides that the time is right for him to gain a final victory. Then hope that he doesn't know what he is doing.

The Prophecies suggest very strongly that option 2 would not be safe. So why prefer that one over the one that at least has some small chance of success?

maleshub
04-30-2012, 09:46 AM
I agree completely.

Thanks! :p

Hard to say without getting into his head.

Of course you're right. But I only asked to hint that Saidar alone isn't Rand's motive for seeking Egwene's help. Maybe he wants her to marshal the armies of the world for him; and maybe he wants to marshal the world behind her after the Last Battle.

The Council of 22 is one clan chief and one Wise One for each remaining clan. The Dragon's Blood is probably the 23rd star.

Wow! Thanks (again) for the clarification. That is a very logical interpretation of the Council of 22 and 23 stars.

It is looking more and more that this particular dream has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of Seals and resealing the Bore.

A cunning plan which cannot fail.
Assuming, of course, that number 2 is realistic at all. So far, we know that the DO has been able to break a significant number of Seals from inside his prison. We also know that no one has any idea at all how to stop him from doing that again if he so chooses. Which of course means that they just plain can not delay the breaking of the Seals if the DO decides to break them.

Thus, the real options are:
1- Go with the approach which the DR selects. This may be a very long shot; that's actually what the KC says will be the case.
2- Delay the breaking of the Seals until the DO decides that the time is right for him to gain a final victory. Then hope that he doesn't know what he is doing.

The Prophecies suggest very strongly that option 2 would not be safe. So why prefer that one over the one that at least has some small chance of success?

The quote is stuck in the easy part of Rand's plan: "Breaking the Seals" phase (the necessity of which is not a subject of debate at all). There is nothing in the post that hints at how the Bore will be resealed. This is the problem Rand and the world are facing.

If Rand breaks the seals and doesn't know how to seal the Bore, what's the use of breaking them? It will only mean that the world is screwed a few months or weeks faster than it should be.

If the DO reaches the stage where he can shatter the remaining seals and Rand still hasn't figured out how to seal the Bore the world is screwed, but with a slight delay.

With no plan, delaying the breaking of the seals at least gives Rand a small bit of time to try and figure out what to do.

Davian93
04-30-2012, 10:12 AM
1. When a Dreamer knows, she knows. When she doesn't know, your guess is as good as hers. In the case of the crystal globe, Egwene does not know.

This is impossible as multiple Egwene defenders have told me that she does know when stating why she is right to oppose Rand's plan. Thus, you must be wrong as the Amyrlin is eternal and thus knows more than you.

She was also right about the killers in the WT being all Mesaana and most definitely not anything else. I just wish Gawyn had listened to her and not gotten involved in his very silly criminal investigation.

finnssss
04-30-2012, 10:17 AM
She was also right about the killers in the WT being all Mesaana and most definitely not anything else. I just wish Gawyn had listened to her and not gotten involved in his very silly criminal investigation.


Sarcasm?

Flinn Sedai
04-30-2012, 10:19 AM
Sarcasm?

Seems legit

finnssss
04-30-2012, 10:58 AM
Seems legit

But the actual killers were Bloodknives that had nothing to do with Mesaana.
Her dream was right that Mesaana was indeed still inside the Tower but that also blinded her to the possibility of there being more than one threat.

It was another in a long line of lessons she has had to learn. That her dreaming is a very helpful tool but it doesn't make her omniscient.

DahLliA
04-30-2012, 11:57 AM
Sarcasm?

Sarcasm

Grig
04-30-2012, 01:13 PM
Sarcasm?

And here I thought "Thus, you must be wrong as the Amyrlin is eternal and thus knows more than you" was a dead giveaway.

Terez
04-30-2012, 02:30 PM
This is impossible as multiple Egwene defenders have told me that she does know when stating why she is right to oppose Rand's plan. Thus, you must be wrong as the Amyrlin is eternal and thus knows more than you.
She's right to oppose his plan based on simple logic (at least, without Rand explaining his plan any further, not that he has one). But she's wrong about the dream.

Davian93
04-30-2012, 03:00 PM
She's right to oppose his plan based on simple logic (at least, without Rand explaining his plan any further, not that he has one). But she's wrong about the dream.

But she's opposing it because of the dream, not because of simple logic...that's the problem. Much like with Mesaana, she is making a decision because she personally thinks she knows better in spite of outside evidence. Its a troubling aspect of her personality that has grown since she became the all-knowing and infallible eternal Flame of Tar Valon.

Its a similar trap that Elaida was also guilty of quite often.

Terez
04-30-2012, 03:06 PM
But she's opposing it because of the dream, not because of simple logic...
No, she interpreted the dream the way she did because Rand's 'plan' seemed to fit with the disaster she saw.

suttree
04-30-2012, 03:08 PM
But she's opposing it because of the dream, not because of simple logic...that's the problem. Much like with Mesaana, she is making a decision because she personally thinks she knows better in spite of outside evidence. Its a troubling aspect of her personality that has grown since she became the all-knowing and infallible eternal Flame of Tar Valon.

Its a similar trap that Elaida was also guilty of quite often.

She has made a decision to talk to him the FoM and present her "arguments" against breaking the seals. That is a far cry from deciding to oppose him even if he comes up with a rational plan. They are going to discuss it at the FoM so in reality nothing has been decided.

Also quick question, what "outside evidence" does Egwene have that should dissuade her from this course?

Edit: Lastly as always, comparing her actions and the results since she became Amrylin to Elaida is of course ridiculous. Or are you just saying the supposed similarities are troubling in general, even though the results are vastly different.

Davian93
04-30-2012, 03:08 PM
No, she interpreted the dream the way she did because Rand's 'plan' seemed to fit with the disaster she saw.

She's using her interpretation of that dream to justify her "logic". Thus, since she KNOWS she is right thanks to that interpretation, she will ardently oppose Rand going forward. That's not a good thing to do IMHO.

Davian93
04-30-2012, 03:10 PM
She has made a decision to talk to him the FoM and present her "arguments" against breaking the seals. That is a far cry from deciding to oppose him even if he comes up with a rational plan. They are going to discuss it at the FoM so in reality nothing has been decided.

Also quick question, what "outside evidence" does Egwene have that should dissuade her from this course.

For one, she has both Nynaeve and Elayne's opinions on Rand's state of mind...both of whom have spent far more time with him than she has in the past year.

Secondly, she will present her dream as the #1 reason why people should take her side and since when she KNOWS a dream's meaning, she will be stubborn as a mule about her rightness...whereas Terez has noted, that interpretation is suspect. Her interpretation of that Dream is right up there with Elaida's interpretation of "the Royal Line of Andor being key".

Terez
04-30-2012, 03:59 PM
She's using her interpretation of that dream to justify her "logic".
The dream isn't needed to justify her logic. If that were the case, she wouldn't have so many people agreeing with her that it's a bad idea.

GracelesslyTom
04-30-2012, 04:03 PM
What really pissed me off was her making the rebels apologise for sticking up to Elaida and the way she treated Nyn during the testing, after that I just thought "What an awful pain in the hole."

maleshub
04-30-2012, 04:20 PM
For one, she has both Nynaeve and Elayne's opinions on Rand's state of mind...both of whom have spent far more time with him than she has in the past year.

Nynaeve spent time with Rand over the past year. whereas Elayne spent half a day and his mental well being was not on the agenda. In fact, Elayne seems to have thrown her lot with Egwene as exemplified by her talk with Perrin after they reach their agreement on his title and stewardship of the Two Rivers.

Secondly, she will present her dream as the #1 reason why people should take her side and since when she KNOWS a dream's meaning, she will be stubborn as a mule about her rightness...whereas Terez has noted, that interpretation is suspect. Her interpretation of that Dream is right up there with Elaida's interpretation of "the Royal Line of Andor being key".

This is pure speculation on your part. But if she did, then she would definitely be in the wrong.

And in the wrong as well is to compare her dreams and their interpretation to Elaida's foretellings. First because foretellings and dreams are different. The first are like prophecy; whereas the second's interpretation is linked to the dreamer. And Egwene showed that she was right in interpreting her recent dreams of the Seanchan and Mesaana.

In any case, all of that is secondary to shifting the blame of this episode on Egwene. The proactive party in this whole episode is Rand. It is his responsibility to lead the effort to figure out how seal the Bore, and then to do it. It was he who approached Egwene and told her in a public audience that he will break the seals but has yet to figure out how to reseal the Bore (He didn't need Egwene for Saidar that he could easily get from WO's, Windfinders, or Sworn AS). And despite that, Egwene trusted him enough to honor his appointment in the Field of Merrilor. And she did not hinder him in any way during the month leading up to the conference in the FoM.

As stated in another post, Rand in the FoM would most logically come with one of two scenario's:
- A feasible plan to break the seals and seal the Bore; or
- No feasible plan to reseal the Bore and thus delay the breaking till such a plan is laid out.

Rand cannot insist on breaking the seals if he has no notion on what to do afterwards. But if he does (by his irrationality; or by hidden influence of using the True Power; or by his own free will); then he has to be stopped. I don't think planning for this eventuality (even if its chances are small) is anything short of sound planning and common sense.

The issue at hand is "how to reseal the Bore?".

Terez
04-30-2012, 05:02 PM
Rand cannot insist on breaking the seals if he has no notion on what to do afterwards. But if he does (by his irrationality; or by hidden influence of using the True Power; or by his own free will); then he has to be stopped.
Like Rand said to Nynaeve:

"I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."And like Egwene said to Gawyn:

"Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

suttree
04-30-2012, 05:20 PM
What really pissed me off was her making the rebels apologise for sticking up to Elaida and the way she treated Nyn during the testing, after that I just thought "What an awful pain in the hole."

That was actually a very savvy political move that went a far way in smoothing the split in the WT.

As for the Nyn situation I understand not being able to show favoritism but that went overboard obviously.

Master Ablar
04-30-2012, 06:15 PM
As for the Nyn situation I understand not being able to show favoritism but that went overboard obviously.

I think her error here was getting involved in the test in the first place. Once she was involved she either risked showing favoritism to a friend (from the Aes Sedais's point of view), or being far too harsh towards Nyneave.


In any case, all of that is secondary to shifting the blame of this episode on Egwene. The proactive party in this whole episode is Rand.


Egwene had choices to make as well though. It was her choice to oppose him on the matter and to gather opposition. He provoked her into it, but that doesn't take away her responsibility.


It is his responsibility to lead the effort to figure out how seal the Bore, and then to do it. It was he who approached Egwene and told her in a public audience that he will break the seals but has yet to figure out how to reseal the Bore (He didn't need Egwene for Saidar that he could easily get from WO's, Windfinders, or Sworn AS).


He didn't tell her he would go ahead without a plan though, and Egwene has fact never worried about that. What she's worried about is the breaking of the seals, plan or no plan.


And despite that, Egwene trusted him enough to honor his appointment in the Field of Merrilor. And she did not hinder him in any way during the month leading up to the conference in the FoM.


Well, considering she opposes him it's not like she could afford to not show up. Otherwise she's basically telling Rand to do whatever he wants. Of course he's planning on doing that anyway, but she doesn't know that.


As stated in another post, Rand in the FoM would most logically come with one of two scenario's:
- A feasible plan to break the seals and seal the Bore; or
- No feasible plan to reseal the Bore and thus delay the breaking till such a plan is laid out.


That's what I would expect Egwene's thought process to be yes...


Rand cannot insist on breaking the seals if he has no notion on what to do afterwards. But if he does (by his irrationality; or by hidden influence of using the True Power; or by his own free will); then he has to be stopped.


That would indeed be the right course of action to me, unless Rand reveals a currently unknown factor.


I don't think planning for this eventuality (even if its chances are small) is anything short of sound planning and common sense.

The issue at hand is "how to reseal the Bore?".


And this is the problem. What you're saying is true but that's not the eventuality for which Egwene is planning. Her opposition is to the breaking of the seals which she considers unecessary. She doesn't doubt Rand's ability to seal the bore, she assumes he knows (or will know) how to do so. To her the issue at hand is "do the seals need to be broken", and she has clearly decided that they do not. The issue is she has no proof of that. Things will get worse when the seals are broken, and as Rand told her, it's taking a risk. But he also told her it was a necessary risk, because the rubble must be cleared. If she thought that he wasn't being clear enough and therefore does wants to hear his explanation at the FoM, I would see no problem. However, she has decided that he is wrong and that the seals should stay intact. The question is: why does she think that?

maleshub
04-30-2012, 06:22 PM
Did Egwene's objections to breaking the seals come before or after Rand admitted that he doesn't know what to do after breaking them? I'll have to go back and read the scene.

Ok ... here is the quote and that is after Rand admitted that he doesn't have the answers:

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

Knowing that Rand doesn't have a plan and that he wants to break the seals, she doesn't object to the principle of breaking the seals, and takes his logic about clearing the rubble at face value; but she asks for more details and planning (on the single most important task facing human kind!). Rand leaves her hanging in mid-air.

As I posted earlier, his course of action guarantees the breaking but doesn't fix the resealing problem. She is certain he will break the seals; and thus her course of action opposes this certainty. The only way to balance the implications of this grave certainty is to present a feasible plan to reseal the Bore. The responsibility is Rand's and the major part of the blame for this falls on his shoulders.

I don't think Egwene or the WT, shrouded in near total ignorance of Rand's plan, would just sit tight and wait without doing anything. They have to plan for all eventualities.

Master Ablar
04-30-2012, 06:25 PM
The dream isn't needed to justify her logic. If that were the case, she wouldn't have so many people agreeing with her that it's a bad idea.

Those people who agree with her are pretty much all Aes Sedai though aren't they? That includes Elayne. Neither the Wise Ones nor Darlin said they were opposed to the breaking of the seals, only that it should be discussed/Rand should be consulted. And there are also those who support Rand, which are those with Perrin. And Nyneave as well was not opposed to the breaking of the seals. Egwene's answer was that Nyneave must be caught in Rand taveren effect. It's certainly a possiblity, but should she really make that assumption, or any other assumption really, when such an important matter is concerned? Would it not be better to learn more on the subject before choosing a side?

Master Ablar
04-30-2012, 06:30 PM
Did Egwene's objections to breaking the seals come before or after Rand admitted that he doesn't know what to do after breaking them? I'll have to go back and read the scene.

After. But Rand did not say he was going to act without a plan, only that he didn't have all the answers yet. Her reaction only came when he mentioned breaking the seals, and she never made any mention of his lack of a plan, whether in their original meeting, or when she met anyone else on the subject, or even in her own thoughts.

In her conversation with Elayne and Nyneave she says:

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

Her objection is clearly to the breaking of the seals, and she also assumes in this line that Rand actually knows how to seal the DO.

maleshub
04-30-2012, 06:39 PM
Ok ... here is the quote and that is after Rand admitted that he doesn't have the answers:

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

Knowing that Rand doesn't have a plan and that he wants to break the seals, she doesn't object to the principle of breaking the seals, and takes his logic about clearing the rubble at face value; but she asks for more details and planning (on the single most important task facing human kind!). Rand leaves her hanging in mid-air; thus entrenching her resistance to the certainty in his plan (the breaking).

As I posted earlier, his course of action guarantees the breaking but doesn't fix the resealing problem. She is certain he will break the seals; and thus her course of action opposes this certainty. The only way to balance the implications of this grave certainty is to present a feasible plan to reseal the Bore. The responsibility is Rand's and the major part of the blame for this falls on his shoulders.

I don't think Egwene or the WT, shrouded in near total ignorance of Rand's plan, would just sit tight and wait without doing anything. They have to plan for all eventualities.

The quote you provided on her thoughts that Rand could defeat the DO and seal him without breaking the seals came after the meeting. It is not a very logical thought on her part; and it would be problematic if she sticks to that line of reasoning at the meeting in the FoM.

But again, the issue is "How to seal the Bore?" Rand has to come up with the plan.

Master Ablar
04-30-2012, 06:59 PM
Knowing that Rand doesn't have a plan and that he wants to break the seals, she doesn't object to the principle of breaking the seals, and takes his logic about clearing the rubble at face value; but she asks for more details and planning (on the single most important task facing human kind!). Rand leaves her hanging in mid-air.


Before he tells her that the rubble must be cleared, she opposes. After he tell her the rubble must be cleared, she asks to speak with him. He tells her he will speak with her at the FoM, which means there is no need to decide whether or not she needs to oppose him until after hearing his explanation. And yet immediately following this meeting, up until the end of the book, she is convinced that he is wrong on the matter.


As I posted earlier, his course of action guarantees the breaking but doesn't fix the resealing problem. She is certain he will break the seals; and thus her course of action opposes this certainty. The only way to balance the implications of this grave certainty is to present a feasible plan to reseal the Bore. The responsibility is Rand's and the major part of the blame for this falls on his shoulders.


He said he didn't have the answers yet. He did not say he was going to go ahead and break the seals without a plan to seal the bore. Egwene probably assumes that he will have his answers, and know how to seal the bore, before breaking the seals, which is probably why she never brings up the subject at any point in the book.


I don't think Egwene or the WT, shrouded in near total ignorance of Rand's plan, would just sit tight and wait without doing anything. They have to plan for all eventualities.


Yes they do, and that means doing what Egwene has done, but without chosing a side and creating a conflict (which Rand is also guilty of seeing as he provoked her, although he does later ask Nyneave to convince Egwene not to oppose him).


The quote you provided on her thoughts that Rand could defeat the DO and seal him without breaking the seals came after the meeting. It is not a very logical thought on her part; and it would be problematic if she sticks to that line of reasoning at the meeting in the FoM.


Yes it would be. That said, as Suttree has said before, it's rather unlikely she would deny the truth if it was made clear to her at the FoM. I doubt she will continue to oppose him on this point, once it becomes clear that it is necessary to break the seals.


But again, the issue is "How to seal the Bore?" Rand has to come up with the plan.

I expect that issue to come up as soon as the question of necessity of breaking the seals is resolved.

maleshub
04-30-2012, 07:19 PM
Yeah, this will keep going back and forth till AMoL is published. And for some unexplained reason, I think the situation isn't as bad as the forum discussions turn it to be. But we'll have to wait and see.

Master Ablar
04-30-2012, 07:26 PM
Yeah, this will keep going back and forth till AMoL is published. And for some unexplained reason, I think the situation isn't as bad as the forum discussions turn it to be. But we'll have to wait and see.

It probably will. And I agree that things are often blown out of proportions on the forums.

Jasin Natael
04-30-2012, 08:23 PM
1. When a Dreamer knows, she knows. When she doesn't know, your guess is as good as hers. In the case of the crystal globe, Egwene does not know.

2. The crystal globe represents the Aiel, and the ropes ji'e'toh.

That makes a lot of sense, but is it an (educated) guess or a fact?

Terez
04-30-2012, 09:56 PM
That makes a lot of sense, but is it an (educated) guess or a fact?
We like to call them 'theories', which are somewhat higher up on the semantics food chain than 'guesses' (even educated ones).

finnssss
04-30-2012, 11:20 PM
We like to call them 'theories', which are somewhat higher up on the semantics food chain than 'guesses' (even educated ones).

Is there a detailed theory of this somewhere, more specifically, how the 23 enormous stars fits in?

No BS please, I am genuinely interested.

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2012, 04:48 AM
Rand cannot insist on breaking the seals if he has no notion on what to do afterwards. But if he does (by his irrationality; or by hidden influence of using the True Power; or by his own free will); then he has to be stopped. I don't think planning for this eventuality (even if its chances are small) is anything short of sound planning and common sense.
On what do you base this opinion?
It surely is not on any facts from the books.

Rand did insist on leaving for Tear in TDR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got there and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on going to Rhuidean rather than attacking Sammael in TSR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got there and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on taking the Aiel clans out of the Waste in TSR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got in Cairhien (or wherever) and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on trying to cleanse the Taint, even though he had no idea what would happen while he was doing that and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.

On the one hand, we have the one who is by his very nature by far the best possible candidate for making decisions such as this. On the other hand, we have a young woman who is in over her head who disagrees with the decision, based on arguments rooted in a reality that is unraveling while she is speaking.
Why make the assumption that the one who has a chance of being right is less likely to be right than the one who does not have any chance at all of being right?

Davian93
05-01-2012, 08:32 AM
On what do you base this opinion?
It surely is not on any facts from the books.

Rand did insist on leaving for Tear in TDR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got there and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on going to Rhuidean rather than attacking Sammael in TSR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got there and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on taking the Aiel clans out of the Waste in TSR, even though he had no idea what he would do when he got in Cairhien (or wherever) and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.
Rand did insist on trying to cleanse the Taint, even though he had no idea what would happen while he was doing that and an AS disagreed with his decision. Turned out he was right.

On the one hand, we have the one who is by his very nature by far the best possible candidate for making decisions such as this. On the other hand, we have a young woman who is in over her head who disagrees with the decision, based on arguments rooted in a reality that is unraveling while she is speaking.
Why make the assumption that the one who has a chance of being right is less likely to be right than the one who does not have any chance at all of being right?

People will disagree with this but LTT was also right to go it alone in the AoL when he was opposed. Had he not Sealed the Bore then, humanity loses. He basically punted the ball 3500 years into the future and won a very costly victory as a result of his "best guess". So basically the Dragon soul has a great track record...Egwene has some great experience working in her father's Inn.

Oneirist
05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
Rand insisted on not harming Lanfear, despite her going bonkers and laying waste to him, his friends, and allies.

He also insisted on trying the play the Aes Sedai factions against each other, screwing around with Elaida's embassy. A dire mistake.

He insisted on keeping Mazrim "Dreadlord" Taim at the head of the Black Tower, and almost completely ignoring it thereafter. That doesn't seem to be turning out too well.

He insisted on hunting the renegade Asha'man himself in Far Madding.

He originally insisted on cleansing the taint without any defensive countermeasures against the Forsaken. Cadsuane insinuated herself and her group into that.

He seemed to have wanted to have just kept Semirhage a prisoner indefinitely.

And he insisted on making himself so hard and brittle and isolated that the Shadow nearly induced him to destroy Creation itself.

Davian93
05-01-2012, 08:57 AM
Lanfear might end up being the key to Victory in the Last Battle...so keeping her around might be a good thing.

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2012, 09:35 AM
Rand may make the wrong decision, in which case the world will be doomed anyway.
But the fact remains that he is the only one with any chance at all of actually making the right decision. If it were up to Egwene, she would be guaranteed to botch it. Not just likely, but certain.

That's the issue: choose between a possible but not guaranteed victory, or certain doom. That Egwene keeps aiming for the latter suggests her judgment is not very reliable.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2012, 09:58 AM
Whether Rand will destroy them or not, there are only 2 seals left, and they are about as brittle as someone with Brittle Bone Disease. It won't take much for them to break, and it could even be the Dark One himself that breaks them anyways. This way, Rand breaks them on his terms, and will be about as ready for the Last Battle as he possibly can.

Davian93
05-01-2012, 10:09 AM
There are 3 Seals left at this point (the one Taim gave him and the two from Rhuidean) Rand has all 3 in his possession though (well, his people do, not him personally).

Flinn Sedai
05-01-2012, 10:11 AM
There are 3 Seals left at this point (the one Taim gave him and the two from Rhuidean) Rand has all 3 in his possession though (well, his people do, not him personally).

It's such a shame that he has to get Egwene's permission to do anything with them, though.

Davian93
05-01-2012, 10:25 AM
It's such a shame that he has to get Egwene's permission to do anything with them, though.

Well, she is Keeper of the Seals...so its in her job description or something like that. You know how government bureacracies are.

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2012, 10:29 AM
Well, she is Keeper of the Seals...so its in her job description or something like that. You know how government bureacracies are.
He could publicly ask her to hand them over. Wouldn't that be fun: watching her have to admit that she has no clue where they are?

Flinn Sedai
05-01-2012, 10:33 AM
He could publicly ask her to hand them over. Wouldn't that be fun: watching her have to admit that she has no clue where they are?

You think she'd actually admit it? More likely is her saying no, and insisting that the seals he has are just fakes. She knows. She's the Amyrlin.

Davian93
05-01-2012, 10:35 AM
You think she'd actually admit it? More likely is her saying no, and insisting that the seals he has are just fakes. She knows. She's the Amyrlin.

Rand is just a 21 year old man-child, the Amyrlin is eternal.

suttree
05-01-2012, 10:46 AM
Rand is just a 21 year old man-child,

Who is not asking for her permission but for her help...

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

For all his knowledge he has made both incredibly good and bad decisions in both lives. Gonz's example above, per usual is totally ludicrous. Furthermore none of that knowledge is helping him in this instance. He is relying on Min and her Baerlon CC education to find the answer for him. That is why I always find it humorous when people call out Eggy on this.

Flinn Sedai
05-01-2012, 10:51 AM
Who is not asking for her permission but for her help...

Yep. He asked for help. She responded and reacted as though he needs her permission. That's the point.

Furthermore none of that knowledge is helping him in this instance. He is relying on Min and her Baerlon CC education to find the answer for him. That is why I always find it humorous when people call out Eggy on this.

His knowledge might not give him a complete answer, but to say that 1) none of his knowledge is helping, and imply that 2) Egwene has more, is absurd.

As LTT, he fought the Dark One for over 100 years, which is only about 1/4 of his experience with the Power. This culminated in him actually making the seals that he wants to break.

Egwene has spent 2 of her 20 years, even knowing she could channel. To imply that she's more of an authority on almost anything, is wrong. To imply that she knows anywhere near as much about the seals as Rand, is nothing short of delusional.

Boli
05-01-2012, 10:53 AM
Not to put a downer on this but didn't she as Amerilyn vow to protect the seals "watcher of the seals" and keep them safe?

She may be incapable of not trying to uphold that vow (if she re-took them all once obtaining the oath rod).

Flinn Sedai
05-01-2012, 11:01 AM
Not to put a downer on this but didn't she as Amerilyn vow to protect the seals (watcher of the seals" and keep them safe?

She may be incapable of not trying to uphold that vow (if she re-took them all once obtaining the oath rod).

She doesn't really have any way of stopping him. Even if she did, I don't think she has any specific obligations to keep the seals from being broken.

suttree
05-01-2012, 11:21 AM
Yep. He asked for help. She responded and reacted as though he needs her permission. That's the point.



His knowledge might not give him a complete answer, but to say that 1) none of his knowledge is helping, and imply that 2) Egwene has more, is absurd.

As LTT, he fought the Dark One for over 100 years, which is only about 1/4 of his experience with the Power. This culminated in him actually making the seals that he wants to break.

Egwene has spent 2 of her 20 years, even knowing she could channel. To imply that she's more of an authority on almost anything, is wrong. To imply that she knows anywhere near as much about the seals as Rand, is nothing short of delusional.

This is where both the hardcore pro or anti Egwene crowd makes me laugh at times. Why would anyone imply Egwene has more knowledge(about sealing the bore) and why would you ever assume that is the case based on the posts so far? It's like people turn everything into a pissing contest between the two.

Furthermore based on the situation up to this point it is Egwene's duty to act as she has. No one can dispute she did the right thing based on the initial meeting and now they will both present arguments at the FoM. Open discussion between allies is a far cry from needing permission.

Lastly in this particular instance none of his knowledge has helped yet. He is working off what Fel told him and looking to Min to find the answer.

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2012, 11:43 AM
I'll take a step back, and focus more on the big picture.

Rand seems to be saying that he would do best to face the DO in combat when he (Rand) thinks that it is the right time for that.
Egwene seems to be saying that Rand should wait unless he has a logical reason which he can share with others to think that he would really have a good chance at victory.

If Rand is right, then having him break the Seals when he thinks that's what needs to be done would be the way to go.
If Egwene is right, then what? Suppose that Rand does not come up with a solid way of repeairing the DO's prison even after the DO breaks the Seals, then he would still have to wait. Suppose that he then doesn't manage to find a sensible course of action for another 5 years, then they could be facing starvation levels of 90% of the population of the whole world dead, with still no more reason to do anything than they have now. And if, during that time, the white stuff in Rand's brain (which is keeping the madness at bay) dissolves, then Dark Rand could make a reappearance. Yet he would then still have to wait with facing the DO until either he did come up with a logically sound plan, or until his madness drove him to turn to the Shadow, whichever came first.

Looking at it like that, I just do not see why Egwene's "wait until you can be sure" approach should be given more credence than Rand's "let's trust my intuition" idea.
We know that waiting will make a lot of things a lot worse. Do we have any reason to think that it will make anything better?

Master Ablar
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
Egwene seems to be saying that Rand should wait unless he has a logical reason which he can share with others to think that he would really have a good chance at victory.


That's not what she's saying. She's saying: face and seal away the DO without breaking the seals.

Weiramon
05-01-2012, 01:15 PM
Egwene has spent 2 of her 20 years, even knowing she could channel. To imply that she's more of an authority on almost anything, is wrong. To imply that she knows anywhere near as much about the seals as Rand, is nothing short of delusional.

Aye, delusional.

You might as well claim she has a book written by a Black Sister, giving details of the Shadow's plans and how it is fighting this war in an entirely unexpected fashion. Ridiculous! Why, I'll wager that if you search her quarters, you will not even see a book.

suttree
05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
Aye, delusional.

You might as well claim she has a book written by a Black Sister, giving details of the Shadow's plans and how it is fighting this war in an entirely unexpected fashion. Ridiculous! Why, I'll wager that if you search her quarters, you will not even see a book.

Well done sir.

fionwe1987
05-01-2012, 09:04 PM
I want to address each post, but since I've been away from the boards this long, there's just too many. So here goes...

Master Ablar: Why should Egwene's Dream tell her why Breaking the Seals is a bad idea? We've never held other Prophesies and visions to such standards before, have we?

Terez: What do you mean Egwene doesn't "know"? She doesn't know right away, but she certainly seems to when she meets Rand. And since we've seen her do the same thing once before with Gawyn, there's evidence that a Dreamer can understand the meaning of a Dream well after she has it and still be right.

Now, for the logic of Rand's plan:

Rand says the DO will break the Seals anyway, so I'm going to break them right now, with no plan for a resealing. Which means that right away, the Light will be faced with the DO having more influence on the world.

Now if Rand waits for a plan before he breaks the Seals, he gets however many extra days for the Light to regroup, recruit and get ready.

Rand said:

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

Sometime before this, he said:

Rand turned to Naeff. "Naeff, there has still been no word from the Black Tower?"
"No, my Lord," the tall Asha'man said.
"I have been unable to Travel there," Rand said. "That implies great trouble, worse than I had feared....
I will need to fix things there, but I could easily stumble into a trap more dangerous than any I've avoided so far. Problems ... so many problems that need fixing.

Just a few days before this, he said:

"Callandor" he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

Basically, with one day to go before the big meet, and two days to go before the highly dangerous maneuver of going to Shayol Ghul and Breaking the Seals, Rand has no plan to reaseal the DO, and has finally realized the Black Tower is a disaster waiting to happen.

So his plan is to break the Seals at Shayol Ghul before he deals with the huge threat that is the Black Tower that is well positioned to strike the Light from the back when it is engaged in carving a way to the Blight for the Dragon to do his thing? And this is the genius move everyone here is applauding and excoriating Egwene for opposing?

Then we have this priceless gem:

On the morrow, they'd hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals, he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One.
He wasn't certain what he'd do if they refused him. They'd find it very difficult to do so.
Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational.

So, even if Egwene comes up with a brilliant, cast iron reason why Rand shouldn't break the Seals, he's going to do it anyway. And he's going to use the fact that the monarchs are afraid of him to blackmail them into doing something they clearly wouldn't want to do (probably the Dragon's Peace, which we all know and love).

Notice that the two things Egwene is being blamed for: stubborn refusal to see the others point, and trying to force her view through, are exactly what Rand is guilty of as well. They neither know what the other knows, and neither seems to care all that much.

Which is hardly surprising. We've been heading towards the LPD-LTT split anyway. The key difference? These two know each other, have loved each other, can trust each other.

I'm fully convinced that as in the AoL, neither side here has the full answer. Rand certainly doesn't, as he admits himself. Egwene doesn't either, since she clearly does expect Rand to do something at the Bore.

So I find it ridiculous that we have pages and pages of vitriol against Egwene as if she was the only one who caused this situation! They're both culpable, and they better learn to work together soon, or else the world is doomed.

Quite a neat situation to cap the central theme of male-female balance and cooperation that has been running since EotW, no?

fionwe1987
05-01-2012, 09:12 PM
Further, has anyone even wondered that maybe Egwene could stabilize the Seals? She's the best at making Cuendillar, and the strongest in Earth that we know. What it she can do something to the Seals to make them stable and keep the DO's influence reduced for a longer time?

Terez
05-01-2012, 10:23 PM
Calming herself, she reached down to the side of her bed, picking up the leather-bound book she kept there to record her dreams. The middle of the three this night was the clearest to her. She felt the meaning of it, interpreting it as she sometimes could. The serpent was one of the Forsaken, hidden in the White Tower, pretending to be Aes Sedai. Egwene had suspected this was the case—Verin had said she believed it so.

Mesaana was still in the White Tower.She never has that feeling about the seals. And so, she doesn't know. She only sometimes knows, and this isn't one of those times.

Kimon
05-01-2012, 10:44 PM
Further, has anyone even wondered that maybe Egwene could stabilize the Seals? She's the best at making Cuendillar, and the strongest in Earth that we know. What it she can do something to the Seals to make them stable and keep the DO's influence reduced for a longer time?

That likely is her intention, but that sounds dangerously close to an hubristic attempt to sidestep the prophecies and to avoid Tarmon Gai'don and the role of the Dragon entirely. Not to mention the issue, that if that's what happens, should not all of the Fourth Age snippets have remembered Egwene as the great hero that saved the world, rather than assigning that victory to the Dragon?

fionwe1987
05-01-2012, 11:23 PM
That likely is her intention, but that sounds dangerously close to an hubristic attempt to sidestep the prophecies and to avoid Tarmon Gai'don and the role of the Dragon entirely. Not to mention the issue, that if that's what happens, should not all of the Fourth Age snippets have remembered Egwene as the great hero that saved the world, rather than assigning that victory to the Dragon?
I don't think anyone is arguing this is close to a final solution. And even with three Seals, the DO has a lot of influence of the world. Egwene's role would be to buy time for the DR to come up with the right solution, so obviously she isn't the "hero that saved the day".

fionwe1987
05-01-2012, 11:36 PM
She never has that feeling about the seals. And so, she doesn't know. She only sometimes knows, and this isn't one of those times.
That doesn't add up with how she interpreted her Dream of bonding Gawyn only when she met him. The morning after she had that Dream, she didn't have that "feeling" about it either. The interpretation came only later, yet it was the right one for all that.

And the fact that Egwene maintains a Dream diary itself indicates that she can indeed interpret the Dream later. If not, what's the point of storing meaningless Dreams?

Dreaming seems to function by giving the Dreamer symbols that will have meaning to them. Thus, it is their interpretation of the symbols that matters. The best example of this is Egwene's Seanchan Dream. To her, the Raven implies the Seanchan, so that is what the Dream chose to represent the Seanchan to her. Silviana felt the Raven implied the Shadow, and I guess if she had a Dream about the Shadow, the Raven would imply the Shadow to her. Min's visions also seem to correlate the Raven to the Shadow (refer to her vision of Carlinya).

As for why there are 23 stars, the best explanation to me seems to be that they represent the 21 Sitters, the Amyrlin and the Keeper. To Egwene's mind, the Hall of the Tower is the body with the responsibility for the world:

"Bear your shame, Sitters, but bear it with determination. Do not let it break you. The time for healing has begun, and there is no longer any use in pointing fingers. You failed. But you are all that we have. We are all that the world has."

Thus, the members of the Hall are the 23 enormous stars shining down on the sphere. I fail to see why the Aiel council of 22 needs to be dragged into this. They exist several generations after Rand (if they exist at all, in the real future), and there is no way their light can be shining on anything Rand does.

Terez
05-02-2012, 12:02 AM
That doesn't add up with how she interpreted her Dream of bonding Gawyn only when she met him. The morning after she had that Dream, she didn't have that "feeling" about it either. The interpretation came only later, yet it was the right one for all that.
When that interpretation came, she had the feeling of certainty. Only then did she "know". This never happened with the dream about the crystal sphere.

And the fact that Egwene maintains a Dream diary itself indicates that she can indeed interpret the Dream later. If not, what's the point of storing meaningless Dreams?On the hope that she will be able to interpret them later.

Dreaming seems to function by giving the Dreamer symbols that will have meaning to them. Thus, it is their interpretation of the symbols that matters.Only when they know what it means. Min has the same ability to misinterpret her viewings when she does not know what they mean. (Quite often, she does not know what they mean, despite the words that come with them.) Elaida is able to misinterpret her Foretellings despite that feeling of certainty that tells her they are true.

The crystal itself was a clue stick (a reference to the crystal columns in Rhuidean, designed to preserve the Aiel race), and the dream fits the Aiel interpretation much better in general. Rand did not set anything free when he hacked the ropes; the ropes were what was holding the crystal sphere together. If the ropes symbolized the seals, then they should be confining the Dark One, but instead they are what holds the crystal sphere together. To say that the seals are holding the world together is a bit too indirect.

It's understandable that the thought occurred to Egwene, since she doesn't know what we know about the Aiel, and the seals seem to fit on the surface. She didn't dig all that deeply into her interpretation, really. Again, the interpretation was secondary to her; the reality was warning enough.

Terez
05-02-2012, 12:14 AM
That likely is her intention, but that sounds dangerously close to an hubristic attempt to sidestep the prophecies and to avoid Tarmon Gai'don and the role of the Dragon entirely. Not to mention the issue, that if that's what happens, should not all of the Fourth Age snippets have remembered Egwene as the great hero that saved the world, rather than assigning that victory to the Dragon?
I have no doubt that Egwene will play an important role in the end, and the sealing of the Bore actually seems like the most likely place for her to step in. We know that Rand's sacrifice will bring salvation in some way, but we also know that he's supposed to work with women to make it happen, and Callandor seems like a disaster waiting to happen more than anything else. But what's to say that Egwene's role should necessarily be remembered, especially in the context of RJ's concept of how these things work? The whole point of him reverse-engineering the legends is to posit that one can derive the 'real story' behind all the world's myths and legends—the ones that often seem to be the same story at the heart, as RJ liked to say—by logical deduction. I don't think RJ was trying to do that in a literal sense, but surely he was in a hypothetical sense.

All through the series we've had constant reminders that, while truths can rise up out of rumors, it's rare that the average person has any real clue what's going on with important events. I'm sure Egwene will be remembered for doing what Amyrlins do, but ffs no one knows Mat blew the Horn at Falme. Or hardly anyone, anyway. I could go on.

Also, I hope you get to watch the video of Dr. Michael Livingston's lecture on Tolkien and WoT; he had some interesting comments on the similarity of that kind of story-telling and linguistic scholarship, particularly as it relates to proto-languages and derived (or, as he called them, asterisked) words.

fionwe1987
05-02-2012, 12:25 AM
When that interpretation came, she had the feeling of certainty. Only then did she "know". This never happened with the dream about the crystal sphere.
That can siply be because of the way the scene is written. In the midst of a dramatic revelation by Rand and Egwene's reaction to it, Brandon didn't want to go into a tangent explaining that she actually felt the meaning of the Dream. Egwene's immediate denial of his plan, coupled with the timing of the Dream vision arising again in her mind, is quite enough to tie them together.

On the hope that she will be able to interpret them later.
A hope sold by the Wise Ones. My point here is that she doesn't have to feel the meaning right away.
Only when they know what it means. Min has the same ability to misinterpret her viewings when she does not know what they mean. (Quite often, she does not know what they mean, despite the words that come with them.) Elaida is able to misinterpret her Foretellings despite that feeling of certainty that tells her they are true.
Nope. Min doesn't misinterpret. She either says she knows, or describes the viewing and leaves it at that.

As for Elaida, what she misinterpreted were the words of the Prophesy. That is quite different from Egwene misinterpreting Egwene-specific metaphorical viewings she herself got.

The crystal itself was a clue stick (a reference to the crystal columns in Rhuidean, designed to preserve the Aiel race),
That makes no sense. A cracking globe is hardly the same as the columns! I'd say the fact that it is a globe and that it is cracking makes it a symbol for the world.

and the dream fits the Aiel interpretation much better in general.
It doesn't do that at all. As I've seen it, one of the stars is supposed to be Rand/Rand's blood right? How can either of those be a star in the sky when Rand himself is walking beneath? And why is the globe sitting on a "dark hilltop"? How can anything that symbolizes the Aiel be on a dark hilltop? And why would it shine with the light from the 23 stars if the 23 stars are going to come 3-4 generations from now? If the sphere represents the Aiel today, how can it shine from the light of the stars? And if it means the Aiel of the time of the Council of 22, how is any work of Rand directly supposed to cause the breaking of the Aiel?

If, on the other hand, the dark hilltop is SG, then it fits beautifully, since Rand has said that is where he is planning to break the Seals.

Rand did not set anything free when he hacked the ropes; the ropes were what was holding the crystal sphere together. If the ropes symbolized the seals, then they should be confining the Dark One, but instead they are what holds the crystal sphere together. To say that the seals are holding the world together is a bit too indirect.
Why is it indirect? The world is cracking under the Dark One's touch. The only thing giving it a semblance of firm shape is the three Seals holding the DO at bay. If, as has been speculated, the Bore has increased in size behind the Seals, the breaking of the Seals (cutting the rope), may well cause the world to start breaking apart. There is nothing indirect here.

It's understandable that the thought occurred to Egwene, since she doesn't know what we know about the Aiel, and the seals seem to fit on the surface. She didn't dig all that deeply into her interpretation, really. Again, the interpretation was secondary to her; the reality was warning enough.
It is understandable because it is true. And Egwene doesn't have to dig into a dream. Finding the meaning of a Dream is never about interpreting the symbols the way we do it in a forum. For her, it has to be instinctual. Either the meaning comes right away, or some word or deed sets off the meaning in her head. There is no back and forth and debate about what each element of the Dream means.

fionwe1987
05-02-2012, 12:27 AM
Also, I hope you get to watch the video of Dr. Michael Livingston's lecture on Tolkien and WoT; he had some interesting comments on the similarity of that kind of story-telling and linguistic scholarship, particularly as it relates to proto-languages and derived (or, as he called them, asterisked) words.

Is this video up somewhere?

Terez
05-02-2012, 01:37 AM
That can siply be because of the way the scene is written.
No, I think that Brandon would have made it clear if she'd had a true interpretation of her dream, like he did with the Mesaana dream.

A hope sold by the Wise Ones. My point here is that she doesn't have to feel the meaning right away.
I never said she did. I only said that she didn't feel it at all.

Nope. Min doesn't misinterpret.
She did so with Alivia, and Rand called her on it. He knows how her viewings work.

That makes no sense. A cracking globe is hardly the same as the columns! I'd say the fact that it is a globe and that it is cracking makes it a symbol for the world.
The crystal itself is symbolic. Most of Egwene's dreams are symbolic in a similar way.

And no, the video is not up yet. It will be eventually; Steve was at that panel thankfully.

GonzoTheGreat
05-02-2012, 04:13 AM
That's not what she's saying. She's saying: face and seal away the DO without breaking the seals.
You could be right about this detail. Still, that makes absolutely no difference to the big picture, does it?

It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat. So if Rand sincerely thinks that not breaking the Seals would be a mistake, then, unless she can come up with very strong arguments against his conviction, she'd better accept that he is more likely to be right than she is.

Kimon
05-02-2012, 01:00 PM
You could be right about this detail. Still, that makes absolutely no difference to the big picture, does it?

It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat. So if Rand sincerely thinks that not breaking the Seals would be a mistake, then, unless she can come up with very strong arguments against his conviction, she'd better accept that he is more likely to be right than she is.

Perhaps this comes down to a question of what is meant by confrontation and the Last Battle. Does this mean, as it would seem, that there must be an actual confrontation, with Rand physically, and metaphysically, facing the DO. That seems impossible unless those remaining three seals are broken. Which just leaves the question, break them at a time of your own choosing, and with preparations in place, or just sit around waiting for the DO to do it himself, with no idea when that might happen, nor anything prepared. The former would seem to be Rand's plan, albeit still unclear on the specifics. The latter however is Egwene's plan, which on the face seems idiotic. The only other possibility is that she actually thinks that the confrontation is unnecessary, that perhaps the terminology was merely hyperbolic, and that they can just reinforce the existing seals, and make new to go alongside the bandaged, presuamably rendering unnecessary any actual confrontation with the DO, who never would thus have been completely freed from his cage, and leaving only his lieutenants and monstrosities to be dealt with. That would be lame.

What would seem to make the most sense is the following:

-Rand and his posse break the seals near Shayol Ghul.
-Rand + 2 Channeling Females (some combination of Alivia, Nynaeve, and Moiraine) distract and battle the DO as it tries to loose itself upon the world.
-Elayne, Egwene et random alii quickly make 7 seals (so hopefully Rand gives Elayne a chance to study the design before breaking them, so as to facilitate the copying process).
-reseal the DO - question remains on how to do this w/o replicating the DO's counterattack of the Taint...

fionwe1987
05-02-2012, 04:20 PM
You could be right about this detail. Still, that makes absolutely no difference to the big picture, does it?

It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat. So if Rand sincerely thinks that not breaking the Seals would be a mistake, then, unless she can come up with very strong arguments against his conviction, she'd better accept that he is more likely to be right than she is.
The bolded part... what makes you say that? Rand also sincerely thought that being hard and emotionless was the best way to defeat the DO. He also thought that he and Nynaeve alone could do the Cleansing with no supporting channelers. He thought there was a secret posse of Aes Sedai working for him in the Tower. He thought Taim could be trusted.

None of these mean Rand can't make a meaningful contribution towards the final defeat of the DO. Obviously, he will. But in each of these cases, he was overruled, opposed or outright defied by someone, leading to a more positive result. So what makes you think that in the most important decision mankind has to make, the Dragon's opinion is the only one that counts? Or, indeed, that he is more likely to be right than anyone else? The Prophesies only say the Dragon is necessary not that he is sufficient.

fionwe1987
05-02-2012, 04:22 PM
No, I think that Brandon would have made it clear if she'd had a true interpretation of her dream, like he did with the Mesaana dream.
In the midst of a scene, he'd introduce a digression?

I never said she did. I only said that she didn't feel it at all.
I disagree, but I doubt either of us can convince the other.

She did so with Alivia, and Rand called her on it. He knows how her viewings work.
She did? When?

The crystal itself is symbolic. Most of Egwene's dreams are symbolic in a similar way.
Care to elaborate? And what about the dark hill the crystal is on?
And no, the video is not up yet. It will be eventually; Steve was at that panel thankfully.
Hmm... should be interesting to watch.

Lupusdeusest
05-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Which just leaves the question, break them at a time of your own choosing, and with preparations in place, or just sit around waiting for the DO to do it himself, with no idea when that might happen, nor anything prepared.
Except he has none. He's essentially said, "Hi Eg, long time no see. I'm going to break this superpowered terrorist out of jail. Yes, he has easy access to nuclear weapons, but seeing so he's been slowly chipping away at his cell wall and is going to break out anyway, I'm just going to blow the wall up. You deal with the consequences. I'm not going to listen to you anyway."

Now just imagine someone held in the US said that, and the superpowered terrorist actually did have what we would consider superpowers.
Yes, it is better to choose the time of his escape. It is also better to wait that little bit longer to have traps and precautions in place. At least even if he breaks out in themeantime, one of your spies will have noticed it, and you can guide him into one of the traps that has been completed. Low strength is better than disorganised strength. Again, it's a case of organisation and balance.

Kimon
05-02-2012, 05:54 PM
Except he has none. He's essentially said, "Hi Eg, long time no see. I'm going to break this superpowered terrorist out of jail. Yes, he has easy access to nuclear weapons, but seeing so he's been slowly chipping away at his cell wall and is going to break out anyway, I'm just going to blow the wall up. You deal with the consequences. I'm not going to listen to you anyway."

Now just imagine someone held in the US said that, and the superpowered terrorist actually did have what we would consider superpowers.
Yes, it is better to choose the time of his escape. It is also better to wait that little bit longer to have traps and precautions in place. At least even if he breaks out in themeantime, one of your spies will have noticed it, and you can guide him into one of the traps that has been completed. Low strength is better than disorganised strength. Again, it's a case of organisation and balance.

Mind you, Rand has no way of knowing, as do we, that this is the last book, but it would seem that there is not enough time to patch the prison, sit down for a palaver to make Egwene more comfortable with the inevitable, then blow up the patch and wing it anyway. Not sure why people are so bothered by the lack of elaborate planning on Rand's part. Did you really expect a chapter in the last book that revealed exactly what he was going to do in this one?

So what do we have? We have a rationale for why it should be done - clearing the rubble. A concept that has been there since Herid Fel. If the idea of breaking the seals was illogical this supporting of Egwene's obstructionism would seem more sound, but it has to be done eventually, and this is the last book. How much longer should the can be quicked down the road? The only important part of the plan that we don't know is how the counterattack will be avoided and saidin and saidar left safe from the DO's touch afterwards. But it would be silly to have made the mechanism for that explicit in ToM. Egwene has a very simple role that Rand has tricked her into performing for him - assemble everyone for him. She didn't need to know anything more, so he didn't bother to tell her anything more.

fionwe1987
05-02-2012, 06:15 PM
Mind you, Rand has no way of knowing, as do we, that this is the last book, but it would seem that there is not enough time to patch the prison, sit down for a palaver to make Egwene more comfortable with the inevitable, then blow up the patch and wing it anyway. Not sure why people are so bothered by the lack of elaborate planning on Rand's part. Did you really expect a chapter in the last book that revealed exactly what he was going to do in this one?

So what do we have? We have a rationale for why it should be done - clearing the rubble. A concept that has been there since Herid Fel. If the idea of breaking the seals was illogical this supporting of Egwene's obstructionism would seem more sound, but it has to be done eventually, and this is the last book. How much longer should the can be quicked down the road? The only important part of the plan that we don't know is how the counterattack will be avoided and saidin and saidar left safe from the DO's touch afterwards. But it would be silly to have made the mechanism for that explicit in ToM. Egwene has a very simple role that Rand has tricked her into performing for him - assemble everyone for him. She didn't need to know anything more, so he didn't bother to tell her anything more.
If Egwene's only role is to bring everyone together, there were much better ways to achieve it. Had Rand come and asked for a private audience, where he told Egwene that he wanted her to gather everyone for a meeting, she would have done it. Antagonizing her served no purpose except to make the rulers even more afraid of Rand, and look to Egwene as a source of sense and reason. And as Rand's final PoV shows, he's very worried the rulers won't listen to him.

As for Herid Fel, his first reaction when Rand said the Seals had to be broken was to claim that the idea made no sense. He apparently changed his mind, but the only proof we have of that is a note of dubious authorship that he supposedly wrote before being mysteriously offed by a Gholam. What if Moridin planted the note to convince Rand to break the Seals? What if he's subtly influencing Rand towards this through their link?

Neither of these options is impossible. So claiming that breaking the Seals has to happen doesn't make much sense. It may well be needed. But Rand's time schedule for breaking them is clearly insanity. The plan itself may be crazy as well.

Kimon
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
If Egwene's only role is to bring everyone together, there were much better ways to achieve it. Had Rand come and asked for a private audience, where he told Egwene that he wanted her to gather everyone for a meeting, she would have done it. Antagonizing her served no purpose except to make the rulers even more afraid of Rand, and look to Egwene as a source of sense and reason. And as Rand's final PoV shows, he's very worried the rulers won't listen to him.

As for Herid Fel, his first reaction when Rand said the Seals had to be broken was to claim that the idea made no sense. He apparently changed his mind, but the only proof we have of that is a note of dubious authorship that he supposedly wrote before being mysteriously offed by a Gholam. What if Moridin planted the note to convince Rand to break the Seals? What if he's subtly influencing Rand towards this through their link?

Neither of these options is impossible. So claiming that breaking the Seals has to happen doesn't make much sense. It may well be needed. But Rand's time schedule for breaking them is clearly insanity. The plan itself may be crazy as well.

I think that it was both pragmatic and antagonistic. He has forced her hand, and catalyzed her into assembling the leaders. The Borderlanders and Perrin will both definitely side with him, as will Nynaeve. Darlin seems to have implied that he will also side with Rand. Mat, if he is there will obviously be on the right side, but he might be busy elsewhere (Caemlyn). Logain might be busy dealing with Taim, but if he finishes that in time, he'll obviously support Rand over Egwene. The Aiel and the Sea Folk likely will support Rand, since they actually seem to honor the prophecies. So, who might support Egwene? Maybe Elayne? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she'll see reason, and do the right thing. The Seanchan? That one is actually a decent possibility, and would be an interesting way of fulfilling her dream-prophecies. But essentially, he has forced her hand. Either repeat the mistakes of Latra Posae, and accept a partial victory (or defeat), or do the right thing.

Master Ablar
05-02-2012, 07:05 PM
Why should Egwene's Dream tell her why Breaking the Seals is a bad idea? We've never held other Prophesies and visions to such standards before, have we?


I never said it should, but I'm pretty sure people will want solid, precise reasons as to why Rand should not break the seals and her dream (assuming she actually understood her dream) doesn't really cut it.


Now, for the logic of Rand's plan:

Rand says the DO will break the Seals anyway, so I'm going to break them right now, with no plan for a resealing. Which means that right away, the Light will be faced with the DO having more influence on the world.

Now if Rand waits for a plan before he breaks the Seals, he gets however many extra days for the Light to regroup, recruit and get ready.

Rand said:

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

Sometime before this, he said:

Rand turned to Naeff. "Naeff, there has still been no word from the Black Tower?"
"No, my Lord," the tall Asha'man said.
"I have been unable to Travel there," Rand said. "That implies great trouble, worse than I had feared....
I will need to fix things there, but I could easily stumble into a trap more dangerous than any I've avoided so far. Problems ... so many problems that need fixing.

Just a few days before this, he said:

"Callandor" he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

Basically, with one day to go before the big meet, and two days to go before the highly dangerous maneuver of going to Shayol Ghul and Breaking the Seals, Rand has no plan to reaseal the DO, and has finally realized the Black Tower is a disaster waiting to happen.

So his plan is to break the Seals at Shayol Ghul before he deals with the huge threat that is the Black Tower that is well positioned to strike the Light from the back when it is engaged in carving a way to the Blight for the Dragon to do his thing? And this is the genius move everyone here is applauding and excoriating Egwene for opposing?


What? You're completely overlooking the fact that Egwene doesn't know a thing about any of this. How can she possibly be opposing him on something she knows strictly nothing of? She opposes him because she thinks the seals should not be broken. While opposing him on this point may end up being for the best because it stops him from doing something which might be extremely foolish, that would be pure luck as it's not something she intended, for the simple reason that she knew nothing about it. It doesn't justify her opposition at all.


Then we have this priceless gem:

On the morrow, they'd hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals, he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One.
He wasn't certain what he'd do if they refused him. They'd find it very difficult to do so.
Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational.

So, even if Egwene comes up with a brilliant, cast iron reason why Rand shouldn't break the Seals, he's going to do it anyway. And he's going to use the fact that the monarchs are afraid of him to blackmail them into doing something they clearly wouldn't want to do (probably the Dragon's Peace, which we all know and love).

Notice that the two things Egwene is being blamed for: stubborn refusal to see the others point, and trying to force her view through, are exactly what Rand is guilty of as well. They neither know what the other knows, and neither seems to care all that much.

So I find it ridiculous that we have pages and pages of vitriol against Egwene as if she was the only one who caused this situation! They're both culpable, and they better learn to work together soon, or else the world is doomed.


How is it ridiculous seeing as the topic is about Egwene? Rand caused the situation as well by provoking Rand, but the difficulty in judging whether it was justified lies in the fact that we're pretty much in the dark about his intentions. We were in Rand's head exactly once, in the epilogue, and it didn't exactly reveal much, least of all why he felt it was necessary to provoke Egwene. On the other hand we know exactly what Egwene's motivations are which makes it far simpler judge her. Even if it turn out Rand was wrong to provoke her, it wouldn't make Egwene's action alright. She's still responsible for her decisions, provoked or not.

Further, has anyone even wondered that maybe Egwene could stabilize the Seals? She's the best at making Cuendillar, and the strongest in Earth that we know. What it she can do something to the Seals to make them stable and keep the DO's influence reduced for a longer time?

It's an interesting idea as Rand might be forced to delay his plans. But we don't really know enough about Cuendillar or the Seals to determine whether this would be possible or not.

That can siply be because of the way the scene is written. In the midst of a dramatic revelation by Rand and Egwene's reaction to it, Brandon didn't want to go into a tangent explaining that she actually felt the meaning of the Dream. Egwene's immediate denial of his plan, coupled with the timing of the Dream vision arising again in her mind, is quite enough to tie them together.


It's also quite possible that the proposition to break the seals is one which is very frightening, particularly without an explanation, which isn't helped by the fact that the dream which she believes refers to Rand's breaking of the seals left her very unsettled.

I'd find your proposition far more likely if the Dream was brought up just once in the entire book (after this meeting of course). But it isn't, not even in her own thoughts. She never thinks about "that disturbing dream", or about "the warning the dream had given her". I find extremely hard to believe that this Dream is her big reason for opposing him, when she never even thinks about it thereafter.

You could be right about this detail. Still, that makes absolutely no difference to the big picture, does it?


Well it puts Egwene in the wrong in my opinion, seeing as she never justifies her belief that breaking the Seals is not a necessary risk.


Yes, it is better to choose the time of his escape. It is also better to wait that little bit longer to have traps and precautions in place. At least even if he breaks out in themeantime, one of your spies will have noticed it, and you can guide him into one of the traps that has been completed. Low strength is better than disorganised strength. Again, it's a case of organisation and balance.

That's all fine but seeing as Egwene is not aware that Rand will go ahead without a plan, it's not really relevant.

If Egwene's only role is to bring everyone together, there were much better ways to achieve it. Had Rand come and asked for a private audience, where he told Egwene that he wanted her to gather everyone for a meeting, she would have done it. Antagonizing her served no purpose except to make the rulers even more afraid of Rand, and look to Egwene as a source of sense and reason. And as Rand's final PoV shows, he's very worried the rulers won't listen to him.

The whole difficulty in judging whether Rand was right or not lies with the fact that we never get inside his head. We know he purposely provoked Egwene, but we also know that he didn't want her to oppose him since he asked Nyneave to convince her not to.


As for Herid Fel, his first reaction when Rand said the Seals had to be broken was to claim that the idea made no sense. He apparently changed his mind, but the only proof we have of that is a note of dubious authorship that he supposedly wrote before being mysteriously offed by a Gholam. What if Moridin planted the note to convince Rand to break the Seals? What if he's subtly influencing Rand towards this through their link?


It's possible but I find it hard to believe that Min just happened to come across the same answer, not to mention LTT's voice agreed. And while LTT's voice was mostly insane, he did occasionaly say some sane things, and even taught Rand how to break a tied up shield.


Neither of these options is impossible. So claiming that breaking the Seals has to happen doesn't make much sense. It may well be needed. But Rand's time schedule for breaking them is clearly insanity. The plan itself may be crazy as well.

In other words all options are possible and nothing is certain. So why take a stance in this situation instead of wait to learn more? Where was the need to?

Master Ablar
05-02-2012, 07:10 PM
I think that it was both pragmatic and antagonistic. He has forced her hand, and catalyzed her into assembling the leaders. The Borderlanders and Perrin will both definitely side with him, as will Nynaeve. Darlin seems to have implied that he will also side with Rand. Mat, if he is there will obviously be on the right side, but he might be busy elsewhere (Caemlyn). Logain might be busy dealing with Taim, but if he finishes that in time, he'll obviously support Rand over Egwene. The Aiel and the Sea Folk likely will support Rand, since they actually seem to honor the prophecies. So, who might support Egwene? Maybe Elayne? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she'll see reason, and do the right thing. The Seanchan? That one is actually a decent possibility, and would be an interesting way of fulfilling her dream-prophecies. But essentially, he has forced her hand. Either repeat the mistakes of Latra Posae, and accept a partial victory (or defeat), or do the right thing.

It seems to me that Darlin and the Aiel are there to listen first and foremost. At least Darlin is. We don't know what came of the Wise One's talk with Rand (if they did end up talking to him). The Borderlanders are probably on his side (Cadsuane considered them his). We have no idea how Gregorin stands. Elayne however is clearly on Egwene's side. I don't remember the Sea Folk being present.

suttree
05-02-2012, 10:50 PM
The only important part of the plan that we don't know is how the counterattack will be avoided and saidin and saidar left safe from the DO's touch afterwards. But it would be silly to have made the mechanism for that explicit in ToM. Egwene has a very simple role that Rand has tricked her into performing for him - assemble everyone for him. She didn't need to know anything more, so he didn't bother to tell her anything more.

The only important part? There is no plan to seal the bore yet. We were not told in ToM because Rand does not have an answer. That is made explicitly clear.

Either repeat the mistakes of Latra Posae, and accept a partial victory (or defeat), or do the right thing.

What mistake was that? LPD ended up being right, if not for the exact reason. The plan was too dangerous and flawed.

Davian93
05-02-2012, 10:55 PM
The only important part? There is no plan to seal the bore yet. We were not told in ToM because Rand does not have an answer. That is made explicitly clear.



What mistake was that? LPD ended up being right, if not for the exact reason. The plan was too dangerous and flawed.

Of course there's a huge gap of time between when he talks to Min and when he goes to Merrilor where he could have come up with something. Our only POV of him is a dream sequence at the very end.

He might very well have a solid plan at that point.

suttree
05-02-2012, 11:45 PM
Of course there's a huge gap of time between when he talks to Min and when he goes to Merrilor where he could have come up with something. Our only POV of him is a dream sequence at the very end.

He might very well have a solid plan at that point.

Shrug. I guess Min might have come up with something. I just feel like we would have been given some hint if that were the case.

This whole thing cuts both ways though. The anti-Eggy crowd harps non stop on her not having any reasons for opposing the breaking of the seals despite her thinking of the "arguments" she will present. Not sure how they give Rand a pass on Min finding the answer with no evidence of that being the case?

Terez
05-03-2012, 12:14 AM
Of course there's a huge gap of time between when he talks to Min and when he goes to Merrilor where he could have come up with something. Our only POV of him is a dream sequence at the very end.

He might very well have a solid plan at that point.
Shrug. I guess Min might have come up with something. I just feel like we would have been given some hint if that were the case.
Not only that, there are definitely ambiguities in the prophecies about swords and blades that appear to be relevant to the plot, and while it's possible that Min will come up with the right answer, the indication seems to be that she's being led down the wrong path. There's definitely no reason to assume she's come up with an answer at all, much less the right one. As far as we know, Rand has no plan. As far as Egwene knows, he has no plan.

There are, as noted above, many hints that there will be consequences that follow breaking the seals, consequences that Rand is unprepared for, that his friends will have to deal with without his help. He's probably right that the seals will need to be broken, but the fact that it's all a part of the Wheel's plan doesn't mean Rand isn't culpable for those consequences. The fact that he's the Dragon Reborn doesn't mean that anyone who tries to mitigate his destructive personality is working against the Creator's plan.

I'm not saying we should jump on Rand before knowing what, exactly, those consequences are. But there is certainly no reason to assume that Egwene is in the wrong here, especially when she's asked Rand to talk and plan, and he's turned her down. What choice does she have?

Egwene gets compared to Latra Posae a lot, but people forget that Latra Posae had to deal with the consequences of Lews Therin's actions. They forget, because they assume that everything would have been perfect if the women had just gone along with Lews Therin's plan. RJ has made it clear that is a faulty assumption.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2012, 04:25 AM
The Prophesies only say the Dragon is necessary not that he is sufficient.
You seem to have overlooked one very important word in the bit you bolded from me: "It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat."

It is quite true that Rand could be wrong. But the really relevant factor to take into account is that it is guaranteed that when it comes down to it, everyone else will definitely be wrong. Only the DR has any chance at all of being right about this.

Now just imagine someone held in the US said that, and the superpowered terrorist actually did have what we would consider superpowers.
Yes, it is better to choose the time of his escape. It is also better to wait that little bit longer to have traps and precautions in place. At least even if he breaks out in themeantime, one of your spies will have noticed it, and you can guide him into one of the traps that has been completed. Low strength is better than disorganised strength. Again, it's a case of organisation and balance.
I like this analogy.

So here we have you, plotting to lay down traps for this superpowered terrorist (ST). Eventually, ST breaks out of his prison, and starts throwing nukes around. He nukes every place where he is going to go, just to get rid of any potential traps.
How well do your preparations now work?

What kind of Hydrogen-bomb proof trap can you build which you can be sure that you can lure ST to step into it?

Considering the fact that ST plans to exterminate everyone anyway, what specific preparations do you have for the case where he doesn't leave his cell at all, but instead starts on a course of global destruction as soon as he knows that he can't be stopped?

I would really like to hear how you're planning to handle this. You can play Egwene in this scenario, I'll play the DO and cook up counters to whatever you're planning. Could be fun. Could also be instructive, to show that the "let's pretend it is an ordinary villain, instead of a divine being with almost infinite power" approach is somewhat flawed.

Terez
05-03-2012, 05:55 AM
You seem to have overlooked one very important word in the bit you bolded from me: "It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat."
Faulty logic. You're assuming a few things here:

1. That Rand's ultimate purpose is to figure out how to seal the prison (i.e. that he won't rely on others to figure it out).

2. That, just because Rand's role is crucial, that therefore only his decisions can lead to victory or defeat, when in reality things are much more complex.

3. That Rand's decisions, just because they are part of the Wheel's plan, are therefore ethically correct, and that anyone who opposes him is therefore ethically incorrect.

All three of those would appear to be faulty assumptions, for reasons discussed above.

Lupusdeusest
05-03-2012, 07:02 AM
I like this analogy.

So here we have you, plotting to lay down traps for this superpowered terrorist (ST). Eventually, ST breaks out of his prison, and starts throwing nukes around. He nukes every place where he is going to go, just to get rid of any potential traps.
How well do your preparations now work?

What kind of Hydrogen-bomb proof trap can you build which you can be sure that you can lure ST to step into it?

Considering the fact that ST plans to exterminate everyone anyway, what specific preparations do you have for the case where he doesn't leave his cell at all, but instead starts on a course of global destruction as soon as he knows that he can't be stopped?

I would really like to hear how you're planning to handle this. You can play Egwene in this scenario, I'll play the DO and cook up counters to whatever you're planning. Could be fun. Could also be instructive, to show that the "let's pretend it is an ordinary villain, instead of a divine being with almost infinite power" approach is somewhat flawed.

So we should simply leave our men to scatter? To tell them, by voice or behaviour, "Oh, this guy is going to come and kill you, and you won't even know it's happening, but we have to fight him anyway. We're not going to give you any retreat plans, or give you any last sanctuaries where humankind can hide for another few minutes. We're just going to give up, basically, because there is no point planning anything. Who knows what he might do? We're just going to let him out and see what happens." Well, that's certainly belief and order giving strength, isn't it? Unless Rand was actually being very devious and forcing Eg to turn so strongly against him that the entire world derives enough of this belief and order by being virulently against him...
Reread my post. I am not saying "Let's pause indefinitely", or even "Let's pause for another few months." I am saying "Let us spend even a few moments laying basic plans for rallying if FoM is shattered and our assaults fail. Let us find a way, in that time, if we can, to delay the DO, even for a moment. Let us plan how to remove the dagger of the BT from our throats before we deal with the archer at the door." That one moment of distraction may be enough for (insert strategy here) to take place. There won't be TIME to plan once he is free - both Serpentwise and normal - if we do not lay the basic groundwork now.
Yes, all plans change in battle, and I believe Mat notes that a good strategy lasts only until the first arrow flies, but the simple KNOWLEDGE that these plans exist gives the world courage, order, and strength. People need to have faith in their leaders, to know they are cared for and are following the right person. Knowing there is a Plan B has given soldiers heart for many millenia and has even won battles thought impossible. (I would give you a plethora of examples, but I have not the time right now.)

Yes, Eg's original view on the matter has become somewhat stiffened, possibly because she knows (even subconsciously) a good leader should never seem uncertain. They can admit a path as being wrong, yes (and earn the admiration of their followers if this is done in the right way!), but obvious uncertainty and "Yes, but-"s breeds distrust and fear. (In saying they must be never be uncertain, they must always be internally questioning. Without doubt in oneself, there is no true belief in oneself, and without that belief, one cannot lead as none will follow willingly.)


In War,
Numbers
Are not the issue.
It is a question of
Not attacking
Too aggressively.
Concentrate your strength,
Assess your enemy,
And win the confidence of your men:
That is enough.


With the confidence of their followers comes the belief and order required. You do not build confidence by appearing to have no plans. It is downright irresponsible to not have a Plan B - even if it is destroyed in the first few minutes of his release. The knowledge that there IS a plan, that their leaders HAVE thought about this, is enough. Time spent thus is seldom wasted, although too much time spent does more damage than not.



Perhaps I should have used biological weapons instead of nuclear weapons in the example - the effect is a tad more similar (although to be fair, nuclear weaponry does come closer to the DO's effect on the Pattern). The importance is in the contrasting of the power levels between Lightside and Darkside in either case. "Mere" superpowers are more than people in our Age/World possess, (far more!) just as the power and Power of the DO is similarly greater than that of Team Light alone.

Given that Rand is so set on breaking the seals, we can (hopefully, otherwise he, Min, and Fel (barring uncertainty around Fel's note, which i confess I had never questioned deeply until about 10 minutes ago!) are very wrong indeed!) assume that the DO will not be outside the prison or perhaps cognizant of his freedom instantaneously when the Seals are removed. There may even be a brief moment of vulnerability as well. In this moment of ignorance or vulnerability, plans can be initiated depending on his actions (or apparent actions as viewed by their effects). If those plans are not developed beforehand with the cooperation of both the plan-makers (Eg and Co) and Rand, so that their actions do not battle one another unintentionally due to a lack of communication, the result would be possibly catastrophic. At the very least, the desired outcome will not occur.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2012, 07:18 AM
Yes, Eg's original view on the matter has become somewhat stiffened, possibly because she knows (even subconsciously) a good leader should never seem uncertain. They can admit a path as being wrong, yes (and earn the admiration of their followers if this is done in the right way!), but obvious uncertainty and "Yes, but-"s breeds distrust and fear. (In saying they must be never be uncertain, they must always be internally questioning. Without doubt in oneself, there is no true belief in oneself, and without that belief, one cannot lead as none will follow willingly.)
Good point. So Rand should've told the truth, and admitted in public that he had no clue at all about how to actually defeat the DO. Then Egwene could've stepped up as the Great Leader and laid out her plans for winning TG.

Or, if it just so happened that she did not have such plans ready, everyone would've panicked because the DR (who is the actual leader of the forces of the Light, not Egwene) did what you suggest is not a good idea.

Instead, Rand is basically saying "I'll tackle the DO, you handle the Trollocs and such, and we'll hope that we are strong and competent enough".
The last bit (about his hopes) is indeed not quite what Sun Tzu would advice. But then, Sun Tzu would probably advice against trying to lead such a crazy assembly of disunited forces anyway. He was rather strong on the idea that having an acknowledged and accepted commander was necessary for achieving victory.

And, just for fun, another bit of advice from that Chinese sage: "when capable of attacking, feign incapacity". That may be what Rand is doing, by saying that he doesn't know how to seal the DO away. :p

Davian93
05-03-2012, 07:41 AM
Shrug. I guess Min might have come up with something. I just feel like we would have been given some hint if that were the case.

This whole thing cuts both ways though. The anti-Eggy crowd harps non stop on her not having any reasons for opposing the breaking of the seals despite her thinking of the "arguments" she will present. Not sure how they give Rand a pass on Min finding the answer with no evidence of that being the case?

To be fair, we didnt have any indications that he had a complex plan going into the Cleansing either...yet he did.

Lupusdeusest
05-03-2012, 08:09 AM
Good point. So Rand should've told the truth, and admitted in public that he had no clue at all about how to actually defeat the DO. Then Egwene could've stepped up as the Great Leader and laid out her plans for winning TG.

Say rather he should have softened his approach, been less arrogant, and asked to speak with Eg and her most trusted in privacy. Respect in turn breeds respect; he could have used that calm and been respectful, and seemed the stronger leader of the two in the process. Having the two leaders of Lightside (yes, Rand is the leader, but Egwene is seen as the leader by those in that immediate environment. By gaining their respect, he reaffirms his own position and strengthens Egwene's (belief, order etc.)) openly communicating and cooperating rather than deliberately causing a confrontation as he did would further strengthen the morale and confidence of their side.

Or, if it just so happened that she did not have such plans ready, everyone would've panicked because the DR (who is the actual leader of the forces of the Light, not Egwene) did what you suggest is not a good idea.

Instead, Rand is basically saying "I'll tackle the DO, you handle the Trollocs and such, and we'll hope that we are strong and competent enough".

It's good that he is at lease showing confidence in her that she can handle the Trollocs and the Black Tower remains and the mess he will leave behind (he must know he will likely be somewhat distracted immediately after breaking the seals!) but his arrogance completely and utterly buries that.
Consider, rather, the following.

Rand enters; greets Egwene politely. Egwene either freaks and brings up all the bad things he has done according to rumour, or returns the politeness accordingly.
If Eg responds politely, Rand asks if he might have a word, for old times' sake, as well as to reaffirm their plans for TG, so they can be sure they're on the same page. He recounts an instance from his childhood, perhaps to reward her patience and politeness, and to reassure her that he has reconnected with the shepherd boy, but tells it in such a manner that both shows he has changed and reaffirms his guiding and healing leadership in this situation. Egwene acquiesces, and the room is cleared and warded with both 'in and 'ar, displaying unity to curious sisters and giving extra security. Rand breaks his news quietly, honestly, humbly and respectfully and lays out what he hopes Eg will do, reiterating his trust in her. Plans are formed. Eg has the most trusted folks around her in case she feels scared. Wards are unraveled in time for a confident conversation between the two, Rand exits. Eg's leadership of the WT is reaffirmed, but Rand has earned respect. He has shown to those witnessing that he respects Eg's territory of the WT and trusts her with it, as he would any leader of a country. (Or should, in any case.)

If Eg throws a fit (she has cause to, although throwing a fit at someone who has walked calmly into the room and been nothing but polite to you is politically unwise, and she must see this!), then Rand accepts this, says "Yes, I have been a twat, I have toh, but we must speak of our plans for TG." He may then do the story-from-childhood thing to ease her, then request an audience as above. By turning the conversation masterfully, he will again show his authority.

I dislike what-ifs in this level of intricacy - these are not my characters and I do not pretend to know every last detail of their motivations. I do believe in this instance, however, that we have enough evidence of the power of strong humility and the evil of arrogance in the series to say that the results would likely be as above.

The best way to lead is not with the constant assertion of your superiority but with the calm assumption that it is so. "He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout."

The last bit (about his hopes) is indeed not quite what Sun Tzu would advice. But then, Sun Tzu would probably advice against trying to lead such a crazy assembly of disunited forces anyway. He was rather strong on the idea that having an acknowledged and accepted commander was necessary for achieving victory.

And, just for fun, another bit of advice from that Chinese sage: "when capable of attacking, feign incapacity". That may be what Rand is doing, by saying that he doesn't know how to seal the DO away. :p

Maybe Gawyn is a brilliant commander after all! :D



(I won't be back on for another 19h or so; it's to bed for me.)

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2012, 09:54 AM
Having the two leaders of Lightside (yes, Rand is the leader, but Egwene is seen as the leader by those in that immediate environment. By gaining their respect, he reaffirms his own position and strengthens Egwene's (belief, order etc.)) openly communicating and cooperating rather than deliberately causing a confrontation as he did would further strengthen the morale and confidence of their side.
Why count Egwene as on the same level as Rand, and not Fortuona?
And how about the Sea Folk leader (whatever her name is; forgot)?
How about the leader of Shara, assuming that isn't Demandred by now?

The assumption that Egwene is actually at the same level as Rand is a wrong one.
Put into terms of American policy, Rand would be the president, and Egwene a governor of one of the states.
The Amyrlin Seat is generally considered the equal of one of the monarchs of Randland, and there's lots of those.

Egwene had Rand shielded during their conversation. Imagine that the governor of Texas has a bunch of guards point guns at the president during an meeting. Would that really work out all that well?

Master Ablar
05-03-2012, 10:05 AM
Say rather he should have softened his approach, been less arrogant, and asked to speak with Eg and her most trusted in privacy. Respect in turn breeds respect; he could have used that calm and been respectful, and seemed the stronger leader of the two in the process. Having the two leaders of Lightside (yes, Rand is the leader, but Egwene is seen as the leader by those in that immediate environment. By gaining their respect, he reaffirms his own position and strengthens Egwene's (belief, order etc.)) openly communicating and cooperating rather than deliberately causing a confrontation as he did would further strengthen the morale and confidence of their side.


Rand was pretty darn polite and respectful in the meeting with Egwene. He even asked her permission to leave. He announced to her what he wanted to do, and then told her they would have time to talk about it, and anything else she wants to talk about, at the FoM.

And like Gonzo said, Rand was shielded by two circles of 13 the whole, even though he showed absolutely no sign of hostility or violence. They treated him more like a criminal than the savior of the world. That's not going to convince him to trust Egwene and the WT.

That said that Rand's provocation of Egwene seems odd. The problem is we don't know what his reasons for doing it were. It's rather hard to judge him without knowing his motivations.

suttree
05-03-2012, 10:53 AM
And like Gonzo said, Rand was shielded by two circles of 13 the whole, even though he showed absolutely no sign of hostility or violence. They treated him more like a criminal than the savior of the world. That's not going to convince him to trust Egwene and the WT.


Answer in truth. Would you have done any different considering his actions leading up to that point? They had no idea about his epiphany.

Also Gonz, when has the Amrylin Seat only ever been the equal to monarchs? That position has always been a step above. She calls and they come, even the Lord Captain Commander.

Faulty logic. You're assuming a few things here:


Is there any other kind with him?

Grig
05-03-2012, 11:23 AM
Answer in truth. Would you have done any different considering his actions leading up to that point?

After realizing that Aes Sedai shielded him, stuck him in a box, and beat him and his girlfriend? Yes. Egwene refusing to accept that as Amyrlin she needs to deal with that is glaring. Their prophecies say the world is doomed without him. Especially considering "his actions up to that point" (or what they believe to be his actions), that just makes it more important not to push him. If he turned belligerent, there were hundreds of Aes Sedai who could restrain him. No need to start out as the aggressive party in that scenario. It just projected weakness and mistrust.

She calls and they come, even the Lord Captain Commander.

And yet, Murandy, the dinkiest of nations seems exempt from this.

Master Ablar
05-03-2012, 11:23 AM
Answer in truth. Would you have done any different considering his actions leading up to that point? They had no idea about his epiphany.


I would have been very careful around him seeing as he reportedly does not like Aes Sedai. I would keep plenty of Aes Sedai around him in case he became dangerous. But as long as shows no sign of being violent, there is no reason to shield him. They might not have known about his epiphany but they didn't know how bad he got either. They know he's tempermental, and rude, and arrogant (at least to them), but they don't that he's willing to pull off what he did at Natrim's Burrow, or what he might have done to the Borderlanders and the Seanchan, or that he was a second away from destroying the world. If he had shown up and acted dangerously, I could have understood. But he showed and calmly and politely, he asked to speak to the Amrylin. That he's acting like that is disturbing true, but it isn't a reason to shield him. Ultimately they should have been on their toes ready to stop him if they needed to, but there was no need to shield him. In fact if he was in the condition they feared he was, it could ended really, really badly. They're quite lucky that Rand was so reasonable (in his attitude at least).

Kimon
05-03-2012, 12:08 PM
What mistake was that? LPD ended up being right, if not for the exact reason. The plan was too dangerous and flawed.

Those that defend what Posae did focus too much on the fact that her decision perserved an unblemished saidar, while disregarding that had everyone followed her plan and Lews Therin and the 100 Companions not made their assault anyway, that the whole world would have been charnel. Yes, her decision kept saidar clean, but that doesn't change the fact that her stance was indecision and eventual defeat. This, unfortunately, is the path Egwene is currently coursing (not surprising as she may well be Latra reborn). In the past, Latra was right for the wrong reason. That turning needed a partial, not a complete victory. She was thus right, but her logic was still faulty. This turning however requires cooperation, and a complete victory - hence the description of it as the "last" battle - probably simply due to this turning resulting in belief and perhaps even memory in the DO completely fading for an age, or ages, before his eventual return, in the next coming of the Age of the Legends, rather than of a true, and permanent, and total victory. If Egwene follows the same path as Latra, now it will not be an accidental boon born out of stalwart inactivity and illogical thinking, but disaster and defeat born out of indolence and hubris.

suttree
05-03-2012, 12:21 PM
And yet, Murandy, the dinkiest of nations seems exempt from this.

So feeble mate. If you were Demandred(or his proxy) would you come?

Those that defend what Posae did focus too much on the fact that her decision perserved an unblemished saidar, while disregarding that had everyone followed her plan and Lews Therin and the 100 Companions not made their assault anyway, that the whole world would have been charnel.

I've always wondered about this. How close to the end where they actually? None of the offensives had broken through and the SaSG claims when they finally did the end could possibly come in "months". That seems like time to continue looking for the keys before enacting a flawed plan. If you claim a plan is too dangerous you don't have to pinpoint the exact reason. Once again we have no idea what she was thinking at the time but everyone just assumes it was wait and do nothing. That runs counter to everything else we know about her and her subsequent actions helping the world during the breaking.

Terez
05-03-2012, 12:52 PM
Those that defend what Posae did focus too much on the fact that her decision perserved an unblemished saidar, while disregarding that had everyone followed her plan and Lews Therin and the 100 Companions not made their assault anyway, that the whole world would have been charnel. Yes, her decision kept saidar clean, but that doesn't change the fact that her stance was indecision and eventual defeat. This, unfortunately, is the path Egwene is currently coursing (not surprising as she may well be Latra reborn). In the past, Latra was right for the wrong reason. That turning needed a partial, not a complete victory. She was thus right, but her logic was still faulty. This turning however requires cooperation, and a complete victory - hence the description of it as the "last" battle - probably simply due to this turning resulting in belief and perhaps even memory in the DO completely fading for an age, or ages, before his eventual return, in the next coming of the Age of the Legends, rather than of a true, and permanent, and total victory. If Egwene follows the same path as Latra, now it will not be an accidental boon born out of stalwart inactivity and illogical thinking, but disaster and defeat born out of indolence and hubris.
Quite a bit of dancing you had to do, to make that argument.

Master Ablar
05-03-2012, 01:33 PM
I've always wondered about this. How close to the end where they actually? None of the offensives had broken through and the SaSG claims when they finally did the end could possibly come in "months". That seems like time to continue looking for the keys before enacting a flawed plan. If you claim a plan is too dangerous you don't have to pinpoint the exact reason. Once again we have no idea what she was thinking at the time but everyone just assumes it was wait and do nothing. That runs counter to everything else we know about her and her subsequent actions helping the world during the breaking.

LPD wasn't planning to do nothing and wait, she was trying to retrieve the keys. The reason LTT acted is because to him it was clear that there would not be enough time to retrieve them. To him they had to act now. From that point you either trust his judgement or not. Personally I think there was every reason to trust him when he said that the Light was out of time. He was the best placed to know. His decision to act means that it will never be known whether he was right or not. That said it turns out that the keys were not retrieved anyway, so it could be that what happened was the best that could be achieved.

Whether LPD needed to be precise on what thought was the danger or not is a matter of personal opinion to me. Personally I think that unless she thought the result could be even worse than if they delayed, then she should have relented. We know that the main fear was that attempt to seal away the DO would end up freeing him entirely because it was very to place the seals. Obviously that is a huge risk, but I think there is a point where you have to take the risk, and the Light's back was against the wall here. And evidently LTT and the Hundred Companions managed to place the seals perfectly. It really comes down to whether you trust LTT's judgement or not, and at that point in the War, I have a hard time seeing why she wouldn't considering that without LTT, the Light might already have lost.

Heinz
05-03-2012, 04:34 PM
Am I understanding the debate correctly, that people are upset at Egwene for not knowing LPD's mistakes when LTT led the Strike to seal the Bore, and thus changing her (Egwene's) behavior accordingly?

Jasin Natael
05-03-2012, 05:42 PM
So feeble mate. If you were Demandred(or his proxy) would you come?


YES! He'd get an insider into the war council of his enemies, and be perfectly poised to disrupt Team Lights actions once TG starts.

Shielding the DR when he comes to see you isn't diplomatic. The Tower tortured him, they have to be conciliatory.

And a private meeting is a bad idea. Everyone wonders what's been discussed, whether the DR compelled the Amyrlin or vice versa. In front of witnesses, what has been discussed is completely in the open, so nobody worries about some kind of secret deal. It would also give the Black Ajah or the Forsaken an opening to attack (even if it failed, people would feel channeling and be scared. If one of them was killed, everyone would assume the other party had done it, resulting in war between the WT and the rest of the world.

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 06:16 PM
I think that it was both pragmatic and antagonistic. He has forced her hand, and catalyzed her into assembling the leaders. The Borderlanders and Perrin will both definitely side with him, as will Nynaeve. Darlin seems to have implied that he will also side with Rand. Mat, if he is there will obviously be on the right side, but he might be busy elsewhere (Caemlyn). Logain might be busy dealing with Taim, but if he finishes that in time, he'll obviously support Rand over Egwene. The Aiel and the Sea Folk likely will support Rand, since they actually seem to honor the prophecies. So, who might support Egwene? Maybe Elayne? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she'll see reason, and do the right thing. The Seanchan? That one is actually a decent possibility, and would be an interesting way of fulfilling her dream-prophecies. But essentially, he has forced her hand. Either repeat the mistakes of Latra Posae, and accept a partial victory (or defeat), or do the right thing.
You seem highly optimistic that everyone is there to support Rand. But that hardly seems to be the case. Nynaeve is likely to be neutral. Darlin has said he's all for questioning Rand and checking him if possible, Logain is pissed at Rand and owes his life and freedom to Egwene, the Borederlanders are stunned that Rand wants to break the Seals, and at FoM, will be just one day from when they were blackmailed into following Rand. The Wise Ones were greatly troubled by Rand's plan, and hold Egwene in high esteem... I'm not seeing any reason to automatically assume either side will "win" at FoM.
I never said it should, but I'm pretty sure people will want solid, precise reasons as to why Rand should not break the seals and her dream (assuming she actually understood her dream) doesn't really cut it.
Despite the quote where Egwene straight out thinks of her "arguments', in plural, you seem to persist in believing she'll have no solid basis for her opposition. Why?

Then there is this to consider:

Saerin snorted softly, but obviously recognized the quote from Yasicca Cellaech, an ancient Brown scholar.

Now, we know Egwene's knowledge was exclusively about the Amyrlins of the past. Her sudden spouting of ancient Brown scholars is interesting, at this point. What has Egwene been researching, and why? I'd wager the Seals are involved for sure.
What? You're completely overlooking the fact that Egwene doesn't know a thing about any of this. How can she possibly be opposing him on something she knows strictly nothing of? She opposes him because she thinks the seals should not be broken. While opposing him on this point may end up being for the best because it stops him from doing something which might be extremely foolish, that would be pure luck as it's not something she intended, for the simple reason that she knew nothing about it. It doesn't justify her opposition at all.
You seem to think the single point of this thread is to castigate or defend Egwene. I'm not saying the foolishness of Rand's plan (those aspects Egwene does not know) justifies Egwene's opposition. My point is that we as readers know Rand's plan has flaws. So lets not rush to claim he has it all figured out and Egwene is the sole stumbling block.

How is it ridiculous seeing as the topic is about Egwene? Rand caused the situation as well by provoking Rand, but the difficulty in judging whether it was justified lies in the fact that we're pretty much in the dark about his intentions. We were in Rand's head exactly once, in the epilogue, and it didn't exactly reveal much, least of all why he felt it was necessary to provoke Egwene. On the other hand we know exactly what Egwene's motivations are which makes it far simpler judge her. Even if it turn out Rand was wrong to provoke her, it wouldn't make Egwene's action alright. She's still responsible for her decisions, provoked or not.
What exactly are Egwene's motivations, do you think? I'm not at all clear on how they're obvious.

[quote]It's an interesting idea as Rand might be forced to delay his plans. But we don't really know enough about Cuendillar or the Seals to determine whether this would be possible or not.
I just hope they discuss it, at least.

It's also quite possible that the proposition to break the seals is one which is very frightening, particularly without an explanation, which isn't helped by the fact that the dream which she believes refers to Rand's breaking of the seals left her very unsettled.
Okay... and your point with this is...?
I'd find your proposition far more likely if the Dream was brought up just once in the entire book (after this meeting of course). But it isn't, not even in her own thoughts. She never thinks about "that disturbing dream", or about "the warning the dream had given her". I find extremely hard to believe that this Dream is her big reason for opposing him, when she never even thinks about it thereafter.
She doesn't think about her reasons for opposing him at all. Which is why I'm surprised you think we know her motives. She also doesn't reveal much of what exactly she plans to do at the FoM.


That's all fine but seeing as Egwene is not aware that Rand will go ahead without a plan, it's not really relevant.
She does know he will go ahead without a plan. He told her so himself! In fact, he asked her to plan. What he said amounted to, "I will release the deadly virus into our drinking water system. You plan on how to avoid the damage. Ta!"

The whole difficulty in judging whether Rand was right or not lies with the fact that we never get inside his head. We know he purposely provoked Egwene, but we also know that he didn't want her to oppose him since he asked Nyneave to convince her not to.
And this contradiction doesn't trouble you?


It's possible but I find it hard to believe that Min just happened to come across the same answer, not to mention LTT's voice agreed. And while LTT's voice was mostly insane, he did occasionaly say some sane things, and even taught Rand how to break a tied up shield.
Min came to that conclusion from "Fel's" books. Her conclusion is as suspect as the note. As for LTT, he also wanted to kill himself, and all the Asha'man. He was also against the Cleansing...

In other words all options are possible and nothing is certain. So why take a stance in this situation instead of wait to learn more? Where was the need to?
The need to? The need arises from the Dragon saying that he will break the Seals no matter what, but will leave the planning of what to do to Egwene!

You seem to have overlooked one very important word in the bit you bolded from me: "It is Rand who is the only one who may be capable of making whatever decision would lead to victory or defeat."

It is quite true that Rand could be wrong. But the really relevant factor to take into account is that it is guaranteed that when it comes down to it, everyone else will definitely be wrong. Only the DR has any chance at all of being right about this.

Wow... its like you totally don't even know what you're saying. On the one hand, you say you said "may", and on the other, you say that only Rand can be right and everyone else has to be wrong, which means he's both necessary and sufficient to save the world. Which of the two is it?

Kimon
05-03-2012, 07:11 PM
You seem highly optimistic that everyone is there to support Rand. But that hardly seems to be the case. Nynaeve is likely to be neutral. Darlin has said he's all for questioning Rand and checking him if possible, Logain is pissed at Rand and owes his life and freedom to Egwene, the Borederlanders are stunned that Rand wants to break the Seals, and at FoM, will be just one day from when they were blackmailed into following Rand. The Wise Ones were greatly troubled by Rand's plan, and hold Egwene in high esteem... I'm not seeing any reason to automatically assume either side will "win" at FoM.



I'd be extremely surprised if any of the groups that I mentioned (albeit I did place caveats on Mat and Logain, as to whether they would even be present) as likely supporters didn't support Rand. Indeed Egwene and Siuan were concerned with Nynaeve because she was siding with Rand and supporting his position. Of course Egwene's relationship with Nynaeve parallels her treatment of two of the other heroes, Rand and Mat. She is abusive towards all three, displaying a constant need to denigrate and domineer them.

There are however two potential wild cards - Tuon and Moiraine. Both clearly have an important role yet to play, and both seem likely to play some role in how Merrilor unfolds. I think it more likely that the Dragon's Peace will play out at Merrilor, and that Tuon and the Seanchan will finally be brought into the alliance, but there is still Egwene's nebulous dream of the Seanchan woman with the sword lending her aid. Concerning Moiraine, I think it more likely that she will provide the last pieces of the puzzle that have been eluding Rand and Min, on how to safely seal the DO so as to avoid the recurrence of the Taint, but it obviously isn't impossible that what she instead provides is knowledge that Rand is wrong (or has been mislead), and they must not break the seals.

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 07:22 PM
I'd be extremely surprised if any of the groups that I mentioned (albeit I did place caveats on Mat and Logain, as to whether they would even be present) as likely supporters didn't support Rand. Indeed Egwene and Siuan were concerned with Nynaeve because she was siding with Rand and supporting his position. Of course Egwene's relationship with Nynaeve parallels her treatment of two of the other heroes, Rand and Mat. She is abusive towards all three, displaying a constant need to denigrate and domineer them.
Denigrate and dominate? What a load of hooey!
There are however two potential wild cards - Tuon and Moiraine. Both clearly have an important role yet to play, and both seem likely to play some role in how Merrilor unfolds. I think it more likely that the Dragon's Peace will play out at Merrilor, and that Tuon and the Seanchan will finally be brought into the alliance, but there is still Egwene's nebulous dream of the Seanchan woman with the sword lending her aid. Concerning Moiraine, I think it more likely that she will provide the last pieces of the puzzle that have been eluding Rand and Min, on how to safely seal the DO so as to avoid the recurrence of the Taint, but it obviously isn't impossible that what she instead provides is knowledge that Rand is wrong (or has been mislead), and they must not break the seals.
You're obviously missing Logain, who has had problems with Rand, but probably has a very favorable view of Egwene. And since when has Mat been an unequivocal supporter of Rand? Even Perrin may change his tune if he hears of Egwene's Dream. We have no way of knowing. What we can be sure of is that FoM wasn't set up so Egwene and Elayne can be branded as sole non-supporters of Rand.

Kimon
05-03-2012, 07:24 PM
Denigrate and dominate? What a load of hooey!

You're obviously missing Logain, who has had problems with Rand, but probably has a very favorable view of Egwene. And since when has Mat been an unequivocal supporter of Rand? Even Perrin may change his tune if he hears of Egwene's Dream. We have no way of knowing. What we can be sure of is that FoM wasn't set up so Egwene and Elayne can be branded as sole non-supporters of Rand.

I think that both Elayne and Egwene will leave Merrilor supporting Rand's position...

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 08:06 PM
I think that both Elayne and Egwene will leave Merrilor supporting Rand's position...
But they will be the last holdouts? Dramatically, that makes no sense.

Zarth
05-03-2012, 08:13 PM
In the Age of Legends Latra Posae was right about some things and wrong about others. Similarly Lews Therin was right about some things and wrong about others.

Latra Posae was right to hold back the female support from the strike. She was wrong because her solution would not have worked either. Remember, the Aes Sedai who foretold the Prophecies had access keys to the Choedan Kal, what they saw was that Callandor would be important, not sa'angreal Latra Posae was betting on.

Lews Therin was wrong to want the women to help him with his type of seal. Lews Therin was right that Latra Posae's plan wasn't going to work and he was most likely right that time was running out. The Forsaken all knew about the Choedan Kal and the access keys were in territory they controlled. By this point of the war there would be little chance of the light taking that territory back. Instead it would be a race, the light would have to get the Choedan Kal back and hope they worked (I suspect they wouldn't) or they'd have to come up with an entirely new plan. The dark simply has to wait for the Dark One to free himself. If they find the Choedan Kal keys first then they'll be able to destroy the forces opposing them and the Dark One will get free eventually.

That being said, I think that Egwene's opposition to Rand's statement that he's going to destroy the seals perfectly reasonable. It's here execution of that opposition that boggles the mind.

Egwene's plan seems to be the following, "We're going to confront Rand in force and he'll back down when he sees us all arrayed against him." It doesn't appear as though they're going to offer any reasoning WHY he shouldn't do this or WHAT else he could do. We don't see Egwene task anyone with coming up with a plan for this even though we do see her task people with coming up with ways to get around the oath rod and we see Rand task Min with finding out how to seal the Bore. Furthermore, even if the entire Field of Merrilor are against Rand. What are they going to do about it? He doesn't need them to break the seals, he needs them to help him afterwards.
Scenerio:
Rand walks onto the Field. Everyone yells at him that he must not do this. They offer no arguments why not, simply that they don't think he should. He breaks the seals anyway. What are they going to do now? Withhold all help and certainly doom themselves?

Finally, even if we assume that Egwene's plan makes sense, how she goes about it is foolish and I think her reading of the situation on the Field at the end is suspect.

Consider that Egwene's plan is to send envoys to all of the Monarchs of the land and array them against Rand. To do this she has sent emissaries to Tear, Illian, Andor, Murandy and the Aiel. She completely ignores every Borderland nation, Mayene, Ghealdan and the massive fucking army walking around down there. She's left out probably half of the world!

Now look at the people on the Field, we'll start with the ones that are sure.
The Borderlanders will support Rand. They've sworn fealty to him and they're not going to go back on that.
Perrin will support Rand. He's already heard Egwene's side of the argument and decided (without even hearing Rand's side!) that she's wrong.
The Tower army will support Egwene, some of the Aes Sedai will not, Nynaeve for certain and probably Cadsuane as well.
Elayne may support Egwene, but recall that when she first heard of the idea of breaking the seals she did not agree wholeheartedly with Egwene. If Mat does show up I think he'll probably end up supporting Rand and taking the Band with him no matter what Elayne says.
Tear may support Egwene, but it seems more like Darlin is waiting to hear Rand's arguments before making his decision.
Illian is in the same boat as Tear except Gregorin is even more likely to just go along with Rand.
The Aiel are similar in that they want to talk to Rand and hear his reasoning, but you'll note that NONE of them come out like Egwene and say "you must not do this"

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 08:42 PM
In the Age of Legends Latra Posae was right about some things and wrong about others. Similarly Lews Therin was right about some things and wrong about others.

Latra Posae was right to hold back the female support from the strike. She was wrong because her solution would not have worked either. Remember, the Aes Sedai who foretold the Prophecies had access keys to the Choedan Kal, what they saw was that Callandor would be important, not sa'angreal Latra Posae was betting on.

Lews Therin was wrong to want the women to help him with his type of seal. Lews Therin was right that Latra Posae's plan wasn't going to work and he was most likely right that time was running out. The Forsaken all knew about the Choedan Kal and the access keys were in territory they controlled. By this point of the war there would be little chance of the light taking that territory back. Instead it would be a race, the light would have to get the Choedan Kal back and hope they worked (I suspect they wouldn't) or they'd have to come up with an entirely new plan. The dark simply has to wait for the Dark One to free himself. If they find the Choedan Kal keys first then they'll be able to destroy the forces opposing them and the Dark One will get free eventually.

That being said, I think that Egwene's opposition to Rand's statement that he's going to destroy the seals perfectly reasonable. It's here execution of that opposition that boggles the mind.

Egwene's plan seems to be the following, "We're going to confront Rand in force and he'll back down when he sees us all arrayed against him." It doesn't appear as though they're going to offer any reasoning WHY he shouldn't do this or WHAT else he could do. We don't see Egwene task anyone with coming up with a plan for this even though we do see her task people with coming up with ways to get around the oath rod and we see Rand task Min with finding out how to seal the Bore. Furthermore, even if the entire Field of Merrilor are against Rand. What are they going to do about it? He doesn't need them to break the seals, he needs them to help him afterwards.
Scenerio:
Rand walks onto the Field. Everyone yells at him that he must not do this. They offer no arguments why not, simply that they don't think he should. He breaks the seals anyway. What are they going to do now? Withhold all help and certainly doom themselves?

Finally, even if we assume that Egwene's plan makes sense, how she goes about it is foolish and I think her reading of the situation on the Field at the end is suspect.

Consider that Egwene's plan is to send envoys to all of the Monarchs of the land and array them against Rand. To do this she has sent emissaries to Tear, Illian, Andor, Murandy and the Aiel. She completely ignores every Borderland nation, Mayene, Ghealdan and the massive fucking army walking around down there. She's left out probably half of the world!

Now look at the people on the Field, we'll start with the ones that are sure.
The Borderlanders will support Rand. They've sworn fealty to him and they're not going to go back on that.
Perrin will support Rand. He's already heard Egwene's side of the argument and decided (without even hearing Rand's side!) that she's wrong.
The Tower army will support Egwene, some of the Aes Sedai will not, Nynaeve for certain and probably Cadsuane as well.
Elayne may support Egwene, but recall that when she first heard of the idea of breaking the seals she did not agree wholeheartedly with Egwene. If Mat does show up I think he'll probably end up supporting Rand and taking the Band with him no matter what Elayne says.
Tear may support Egwene, but it seems more like Darlin is waiting to hear Rand's arguments before making his decision.
Illian is in the same boat as Tear except Gregorin is even more likely to just go along with Rand.
The Aiel are similar in that they want to talk to Rand and hear his reasoning, but you'll note that NONE of them come out like Egwene and say "you must not do this"
Some points:

1) Egwene clearly says she has arguments to present to the monarchs. What those are have carefully been kept from the reader. All we know is that she can suddenly quote ancient Brown scholars.

2) Egwene herself can easily change her mind if she is presented with clear arguments in support of Rand's plan.

3) No emissaries were sent to Ghealdan, the Borderlanders and Mayne because the rulers of these nations were missing and not locatable.

4) As for what they can do if Rand doesn't change his mind: no one knows. Egwene's PoV reveals she has no idea what she'll do if it comes to this.

Davian93
05-03-2012, 08:46 PM
1) Egwene clearly says she has arguments to present to the monarchs. What those are have carefully been kept from the reader. All we know is that she can suddenly quote ancient Brown scholars.

I bet you a Coke that it boils down to "I had a dream and I'm a Dreamer you know..."

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 08:49 PM
I bet you a Coke that it boils down to "I had a dream and I'm a Dreamer you know..."
Accepted. I bet it'll be more than that.

Davian93
05-03-2012, 08:54 PM
Accepted. I bet it'll be more than that.

There will be some other stuff but that will be her closing argument.

I will gladly Fedex you a coke if I'm wrong.

suttree
05-03-2012, 09:35 PM
She is abusive towards all three, displaying a constant need to denigrate and domineer them.


It's hyperbole like this that makes it entirely impossible to take the anti-Egwene crowd seriously at times.

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 10:18 PM
There will be some other stuff but that will be her closing argument.

I will gladly Fedex you a coke if I'm wrong.
Now you moved the goalposts there. I definitely think her Dream will figure prominently. Maybe even be the biggest argument. I'm just saying it won't be the only argument.

It's hyperbole like this that makes it entirely impossible to take the anti-Egwene crowd seriously at times.

Agreed.

Kimon
05-03-2012, 10:24 PM
It's hyperbole like this that makes it entirely impossible to take the anti-Egwene crowd seriously at times.

She's a bully. The fact that that clearly endears her to you does not however make that a hyperbolic observation.

fionwe1987
05-03-2012, 10:39 PM
She's a bully. The fact that that clearly endears her to you does not however make that a hyperbolic observation.
She's a... bully? Offer some proof, then.

suttree
05-03-2012, 10:44 PM
She's a bully. The fact that that clearly endears her to you does not however make that a hyperbolic observation.

Look mate, the people here and on DM that know me are well are aware that she isn't even in my top five characters. The only reason I usually get pulled into the debate is responding to accusations like this that are so patently false and I have consistently called out both sides when they cross the line. Has she engaged in bullying behavior at times? Sure, although the term fits other characters such as Nynaeve far better. In fact the young wisdom/young amrylin finding their feet behavior mirrors each other quite nicely.

It is comical watching a perfectly reasonable debate getting away from you and then seeing you have to resort to ludicrous comments such as "displaying a constant need to denigrate and domineer them." Then when called out on it you feel the need to go further tossing out a peevish barb about how "bullying" would endear her to me. How would you begin to feel qualified to make that statement? All any rational person can do is shake their head and chuckle.

Kimon
05-03-2012, 11:06 PM
She's a... bully? Offer some proof, then.

How about her treatment of Mat after he risked his life to save them from the BA in Tear. Nynaeve and Elayne are also less than gracious about Mat's help, but the latter two at least eventually (after some chastising by Aviendha) apologize.

Her abuse of Nynaeve doesn't really begin until tFoH, when in fearing that Nynaeve would accidentally point out, and learn that she was in TAR without permission her tactic to avoid this is to catch Nynaeve in her lie about Ronde Macura, and then to use that to bully her into submission. You might argue that this was Nynaeve's own fault, but when Egwene noticed the effectiveness of this tactic, she continues to use it (bullying) to exert more control over her from then on.

Her modus operandi with Rand is essentially the same up until she notices the success that Moiraine began to have with him in tFoH which she compared to how one controls saidar, by submitting. Rand actually notes the change, mostly less yelling and tantrums, and notes that she seems more like an Aes Sedai, in control of herself, like Moiraine. Soon thereafter their paths diverge, until now. Nonetheless she did fail to convince Gawyn that Rand had nothing to do with his mother's death, which she could have, and she was angered by the thought that Aes Sedai had become dragonsworn as well as being irritated by the fact that asha'man had bonded women. Those last two points have nothing to do with bullying obviously, nor did she have full knowledge of the mitigating situations in which they occurred, but it is, nonetheless odd that she has a problem with sisters swearing allegiance to Rand, and yet coerces sisters to swear allegiance to herself.

A simple search through any of the numerous Egwene threads will unearth various other such examples.

fionwe1987
05-04-2012, 01:53 AM
How about her treatment of Mat after he risked his life to save them from the BA in Tear. Nynaeve and Elayne are also less than gracious about Mat's help, but the latter two at least eventually (after some chastising by Aviendha) apologize.
Really? Some chastising? Nynaeve had to almost be dragged there protesting. And Elayne did it more to please Aviendha than because she felt sorry. And the idea never popped into their head till they realized they could use Mat in their search.

As for Egwene, she never formally apologized, but in the very next book, she and Mat made up. He came to her for advice, and she gave it to him (told him about the ter'angreal, and thus literally changed his life). Here are some quotes from that scene:

He wanted advice from her? She goggled at him. “Whatever I can do to help,” she said faintly.

“No!” He was on his feet in a bound. “No Aes Sedai! I mean . . . . You’re different. I know you, and you aren’t . . . . Didn’t they teach you anything in the Tower, some trick or other, something that would serve?”
“Oh, Mat, I am sorry. I am so sorry.”

Despite his tone, she wanted to put an arm around him. Only he would likely make some joke at her expense, and try to goose her. He had been incorrigible from the day he was horn. But he had come to her for help.

I suppose you know of some special secret class of bullies, do you, that care for their friends, want to comfort them when they're troubled and try to help them even though that help might put them in a lot of trouble with their teachers?

Her abuse of Nynaeve doesn't really begin until tFoH, when in fearing that Nynaeve would accidentally point out, and learn that she was in TAR without permission her tactic to avoid this is to catch Nynaeve in her lie about Ronde Macura, and then to use that to bully her into submission. You might argue that this was Nynaeve's own fault, but when Egwene noticed the effectiveness of this tactic, she continues to use it (bullying) to exert more control over her from then on.
:rolleyes:
Unlike you, I don't think the tFoH incident was anything but Egwene's fault. But I'd like to see you show any further incidents of bullying on Egwene's part. If you read the books, you'll see that Nynaeve simply refused to meet with Egwene for a long time after this incident because she was quite confused about the changing power dynamic, but Egwene herself did absolutely nothing. The next time they meet, Egwene has raised Nynaeve Aes Sedai and is insisting they don't bow and scrape to her... Care to tell me where there was continued bullying from Egwene?

Her modus operandi with Rand is essentially the same up until she notices the success that Moiraine began to have with him in tFoH which she compared to how one controls saidar, by submitting.
You mean she threatens Rand with conjured villains? This would have been hilarious to see in its total lack of effect on Rand. It never does happen, though.

Rand actually notes the change, mostly less yelling and tantrums, and notes that she seems more like an Aes Sedai, in control of herself, like Moiraine.
Uh huh. But you seem to not realize that they set each other off all the time, well before they left the TR. Neither one is a bully, they just know each others trigger points very well. They're like a brother and sister squabbling, not a bully and a wimp!

Soon thereafter their paths diverge, until now. Nonetheless she did fail to convince Gawyn that Rand had nothing to do with his mother's death, which she could have,
She could have? How was she to swear to an incident she wasn't present for? That is what Gawyn demanded as proof. Since she couldn't give it, she instead extracted a promise from him to do nothing till she did find that proof.

and she was angered by the thought that Aes Sedai had become dragonsworn as well as being irritated by the fact that asha'man had bonded women.
Any number of women have had the same reaction, including Nynaeve and Elayne!
Those last two points have nothing to do with bullying obviously, nor did she have full knowledge of the mitigating situations in which they occurred, but it is, nonetheless odd that she has a problem with sisters swearing allegiance to Rand, and yet coerces sisters to swear allegiance to herself.
As you point out, this has nothing to do with bullying. And it isn't hypocrisy either. Queens have no issues demanding fealty from their subjects, but can definitely be pissed if their subjects are forced to swear fealty to other monarchs.
A simple search through any of the numerous Egwene threads will unearth various other such examples.
Exaggerations, you mean? No thank you.

Zarth
05-04-2012, 04:10 AM
Some points:

1) Egwene clearly says she has arguments to present to the monarchs. What those are have carefully been kept from the reader. All we know is that she can suddenly quote ancient Brown scholars.


Look at her note to Darlin.

The dragon reborn must see our full forces marshaled to oppose his brash intentions. If he sees this as halfhearted, we will never dissuade him from his course. Please come with all your troops.

She sends this in response to Darlin saying that breaking the seals requires discussion. She makes no mention of arguments. We also don't know what that Ancient Brown Scholar studied. This came up in discussion of how to catch Mesaana the task that we already know Egwene has been focused on. Again all it would take is a throwaway line to say she's tasked people to do this, but there isn't even that. It's just as feasible to say that Rand stopped off at his schools and told all of them what he was going to do and that they should start thinking of plans of what to do, and that he also did the same with the Aiel Wise Ones.


3) No emissaries were sent to Ghealdan, the Borderlanders and Mayne because the rulers of these nations were missing and not locatable.

The Borderlanders have been camped with a massive army outside of a major city for over a month. Egwene is in the tower where she receives the reports of many spy networks. We know that Siuan at least is loyal. If she doesn't know where the Borderlanders are then she's even more incompetent than I suppose.

Similarly, Mayene and Ghealdan have been part of a massive army that's been roaming around. Malden is thought of as a city, so it's not small and again it's very likely that there is some informant of the Aes Sedai in there who first told them they've been attacked by the Shaido and then later told them about the Perrin/Seanchan response. The reason Cadsuane needs to go to Rand to find Perrin is that she's only 1 person and she has been travelling herself so it is much more difficult to receive the updates or canvas an area after she receives them.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2012, 04:13 AM
Am I understanding the debate correctly, that people are upset at Egwene for not knowing LPD's mistakes when LTT led the Strike to seal the Bore, and thus changing her (Egwene's) behavior accordingly?
Well, it may also be that they're a bit upset at the fact that Egwene doesn't even seem to know about LPD's actions, and thus has no clue what actually went on during the previous time that the DO was active. That in turn means that she is basing all her decisions and convictions on irrelevant facts from an unimportant period, while Rand is basing his views on actual knowledge from the end of the AOL.

Who is more likely to be correct: the one who has no clue, or the one who is very knowledgeable?

Wow... its like you totally don't even know what you're saying. On the one hand, you say you said "may", and on the other, you say that only Rand can be right and everyone else has to be wrong, which means he's both necessary and sufficient to save the world. Which of the two is it?
You are leaping to the wrong conclusion. What it means is that Rand is necessary, and may or may not be sufficient.

Egwene can't do it (whatever "it" is). If she has to try, then she will fail.
Mat can't do it (whatever "it" is). If he has to try, then he will fail.
Perrin can't do it (whatever "it" is). If he has to try, then he will fail.
Rand may be able to do it, if he tries, he may or may not be successful.

That is the issue. Betting on Egwene is a sure loss. Betting on the AS as a whole is a sure loss. Betting on Rand is dicey, but it is the only bet which may result in a win.

And yes, Rand will need lots of help and information from others. Maybe Egwene could've thought of that a year or so earlier, when she started playing at being Amyrlin. But then she was far too busy consolidating her own personal power to be concerned with details such as offering the DR the help he could use. Now that she has that power and the DR no longer has the time to benefit from her help, she has two options: get in his way (thus helping the Shadow) or let him do whatever he thinks best.

Lupusdeusest
05-04-2012, 04:47 AM
Why count Egwene as on the same level as Rand, and not Fortuona?
And how about the Sea Folk leader (whatever her name is; forgot)?
How about the leader of Shara, assuming that isn't Demandred by now?


And where does Fortuona come into this? We were discussing Rand and Egwene at this particular event. Fortuona is doing marvelous things for order and the Light in other realms, it is true, but at the moment she is not part of the Lightside coalition. Until that rift is bridged and her position in the coalition recognised, she does not have a leadership position in the eyes of its members. We as outsiders can see she is Lightside ultimately, and amongst the top three in power and leadership at the very least, but those she has attacked cannot.
Shara? And what major communications have there been openly between the leaders of that land and the wetlands/Aiel? The Aiel do not even have communication with them. Ditto to the Land of the Madmen, if you so wish to include that.


The assumption that Egwene is actually at the same level as Rand is a wrong one.
Put into terms of American policy, Rand would be the president, and Egwene a governor of one of the states.
The Amyrlin Seat is generally considered the equal of one of the monarchs of Randland, and there's lots of those.


Reread my post. I said:

...and seemed the stronger leader of the two in the process. Having the two leaders of Lightside (yes, Rand is the leader, but Egwene is seen as the leader by those in that immediate environment. By gaining their respect, he reaffirms his own position and strengthens Egwene's (belief, order etc.))...

...reaffirms his guiding and healing leadership in this situation.

...Eg's leadership of the WT is reaffirmed, but Rand has earned respect. He has shown to those witnessing that he respects Eg's territory of the WT and trusts her with it, as he would any leader of a country. (Or should, in any case.)

...he will again show his authority.



Where have I said they are equals? On the contrary, you have just restated the second-last instance I quoted above.
Yes, the Amyrlin is below Rand. I have acknowledged that. I would like to add, however, that she is also meant to be above the rulers of the land (a self-appointed position backed solely by long tradition, to be fair), although not all countries recognise this, as is in their rights.

Egwene had Rand shielded during their conversation. Imagine that the governor of Texas has a bunch of guards point guns at the president during an meeting. Would that really work out all that well?

There's this guy. He was abused badly by cops when he was younger, locked into a cell, beaten daily, had to drink his own piss... Since then, he's been known to have irrational angry outbursts. The abuse has caused a deep psychosis involving police officers. There is no known evidence of him being treated for this. He is known to carry a semi-automatic at all times. He is also known to use it. He also has abused a drug most of his life that is known to inevitably cause insanity.
(As seems fairly common in certain countries, he might just be elected President.)
This man walks into a cop shop, alone, without psychiatric support of any kind (no doctors, no partners...), and looks far too confident and assured. Should they take the gun off him, or risk him massacring the entire station? They may have only a few seconds before he starts shooting. Yes, an officer may get off a lucky shot before he is killed, should the man start shooting, but is it worth the risk? There have been no plans laid for this event too - he is meant to be occupied elsewhere, and avoids the police - and his coming is not an action controlled by them, either.
Sure, apart from that eerie confidence and calm, he looks sane, but many of the maddest do.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2012, 05:10 AM
All right, slightly different, but believable scenario:

Before gowing to the WT, Rand has taken the sensible precaution of borrowing Mat's medallion. When they find out who he is, they try to shield him, but fail. Rand gets angry, and uses balefire to cut off the top half of the WT. The surviving AS (about one tenth of those who had been present there) surrender. This fulfills the ‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign’ prophecy.
And, of course, if the AS somehow win the battle, then they're doomed anyway, as in that case the DO would be victorious.

How would that be better than not starting with an aggressive act?

And to give some idea of how bad her approach is: suppose that when she gets to the Field of Merrilor, Rand shields Egwene; would she really just take that in stride, or would she feel as if she were under attack? Especially if he has a bunch of Seanchan sul'dam standing next to him?

This man walks into a cop shop, alone, without psychiatric support of any kind (no doctors, no partners...), and looks far too confident and assured. Should they take the gun off him, or risk him massacring the entire station? They may have only a few seconds before he starts shooting. Yes, an officer may get off a lucky shot before he is killed, should the man start shooting, but is it worth the risk? There have been no plans laid for this event too - he is meant to be occupied elsewhere, and avoids the police - and his coming is not an action controlled by them, either.
In such a case, I would definitely not approach him with a bunch of cops. Instead, I would offer to speak to him, preferably from a distance.

If I had been that man, then I would have been wearing a loaded and primed suicide bomber vest. So if your cops tackled me to take away the gun, they (and I) would all be blown to pieces. Dozens of dead, because you choose to start the hostilities.

With my way, it may also end with a lot of dead, of course. Or it may end with a simple conversation and everyone getting out of it alive. Choosing an option that is guaranteed to be bad is not a sensible choice in my opinion.

Lupusdeusest
05-04-2012, 07:37 AM
All right, slightly different, but believable scenario:

Before gowing to the WT, Rand has taken the sensible precaution of borrowing Mat's medallion. When they find out who he is, they try to shield him, but fail. Rand gets angry, and uses balefire to cut off the top half of the WT. The surviving AS (about one tenth of those who had been present there) surrender. This fulfills the ‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign’ prophecy.
And, of course, if the AS somehow win the battle, then they're doomed anyway, as in that case the DO would be victorious.
How would that be better than not starting with an aggressive act?


Hmmm. There are even copies of his ter', although I don't believe Eg knows that yet. Possible, but given Rand's arrogant assurance, doubtful that he would think of doing so. He's also intelligent enough to realise that most of the world thinks him still a monster - heck, he's commented on it, from memory - and any precautions the WT takes are due to this.
I assume now, upon rereading, that you are talking about this from a WT perspective, with them not knowing of Rand's epiphany. The last Eg saw of Mat, he was not trusting enough of Rand to be likely to loan him the medallion. The last she saw of him, he was resisting all and any attempts to part him from the dagger for even the shortest period of time. To go from that to abruptly letting a channeler take it several hundred miles away into a den of channellers, possibly not returning on the same day... it's a bit of a big step, and not one Mat would be likely to take that swiftly, even acknowledging Eg doesn't know where he has been post-Ebou Dar. He could very well have been with Rand, but considering the Mat that journeyed with her and Rand through the Waste... Much better to be safe. Will Rand be able to see the flows? No, he will get goosepimples. He might guess that they are being offensive, but he is, after all, in the middle of the WT. He must know that there are people channelling quite frequently in the WT... He could have learned a weave such as the SAS developed, perhaps practicing with the harem or the apprentices. He could even have kept it secret, although there is always the possibility of him passing it on to the men at the BT - what is going on there, anyway?
It's far more likely that the better action to take is the safer route - to protect your sisters. It's unlikely your channelling would stand out, although there is a chance he has developed that weave. It's highly unlikely he wrested the medallion off Mat without extreme force. If he does have it, then yes, the flows melt. He may or may not detect them as being different to the constant channelling anyway - the breaks in the Aes Sedai coolness around him are also likely to be put down to his confidence in entering this Aes Sedai territory. Given the dividing of chance to this level, the better and less risky course is still to attempt shielding.




And to give some idea of how bad her approach is: suppose that when she gets to the Field of Merrilor, Rand shields Egwene; would she really just take that in stride, or would she feel as if she were under attack? Especially if he has a bunch of Seanchan sul'dam standing next to him?

Has Egwene been out murdering/killing people left, right, and centre? Has Egwene good reason to be suspected mad?

In such a case, I would definitely not approach him with a bunch of cops. Instead, I would offer to speak to him, preferably from a distance.

If I had been that man, then I would have been wearing a loaded and primed suicide bomber vest. So if your cops tackled me to take away the gun, they (and I) would all be blown to pieces. Dozens of dead, because you choose to start the hostilities.

With my way, it may also end with a lot of dead, of course. Or it may end with a simple conversation and everyone getting out of it alive. Choosing an option that is guaranteed to be bad is not a sensible choice in my opinion.

You are forgetting that you, too, are a cop. You're not just a cop, you're the Police Commissioner, and well known to be so. You're not exactly the least provocative person to be talking to him, but he ignores your mediators and looks to be focused on you.

Yes, he's a madman (without a box; someone ought to get that reference), but he's also a madman who knows he has to die elsewhere. You know he knows this as you had some men able to be close to him recently. It's therefore unlikely he will use weaponry that will destroy him as well.
Your mad dude could use gas or similar, but the mask on as he entered would be a bit of a giveaway. He could be using a sort of invisible rebreather which somehow also renders him semi-bulletproof (thinking the ball of Air he uses in the Cairhien palace attack), but it is well known that these do not last long and are awkward to use. If he comes in armed thus, it is likely that regardless of attempts to disarm him by words or action, he will attack.

With the semi example, both parties know that the madman will be able to see the police being about to reach for their guns, whereas the police will not be able to do the same with the madman. He will even be able to predict this action if the police officer is hidden. Should he possess the gun at that point, he has the reputation to simply shoot wildly upon the prediction, although he should realise that guns are touched frequently in the station. As Commissioner, you know you can trust your men on this occasion (gender stereotyping, I know), so you remove his weapon and then talk.
Shielding in this situation is not like wrestling a gun off someone. It's more... flicking it out of their hand with a whip. (Not something you'd likely see in a police office, sure, but still the better analogy. Tasering comes close but has other effects, as well as being a far more offensive act.)




You could of course be trolling at this stage - your arguments are certainly turning that way - in which case I have fallen quite neatly into your trap. I will attempt to continue to contribute sanity to this thread for as long as I can bear it, however. Too often illogic and hyperbole drive away those who would set the balance aright.



Also: unrelated. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150757572606795&set=a.151633441794.115702.590826794&type=1&ref=nf

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2012, 07:55 AM
Shielding in this situation is not like wrestling a gun off someone. It's more... flicking it out of their hand with a whip.
Which, if it works, is quite likely to break a couple of the suspect's fingers. Not really the kind of thing that'll put him in a friendly mood, is it?

All right, yet another example: Egwene goes to talk to Fortuona, to discuss a potential end to their mutual hostility. When she arrives for the discussion, they clap an a'dam around her neck. Would that be considered a sensible and non-offensive precaution?

Has Egwene been out murdering/killing people left, right, and centre?
She did when escaping from Falme. Which, of course, gives further strength to my "collar her, just to be safe" suggestion.

When Rand entered the WT, depending on how they look at it, he was either a foreign head of state, or the supreme commander of the alliance to which they belong. In either case, treating him as a violent suspect is not really diplomatic.

Heck, not even Tuon tried to shield Rand when they met, and she had far greater reason to think him hostile. He had actually twice taken the field against the Seanchan, while Rand hadn't fought AS unless they started it (at Dumai's Wells and the run up to that).
The kind of precautions that Egwene took are comparable to how Rand treated Sammael's emissary. In that case, those precautions were justified by the very nature of the conflict between the Light and the Shadow. But is there really a similar conflict between the Light and the White Tower?

Heinz
05-04-2012, 08:03 AM
Well, it may also be that they're a bit upset at the fact that Egwene doesn't even seem to know about LPD's actions, and thus has no clue what actually went on during the previous time that the DO was active. That in turn means that she is basing all her decisions and convictions on irrelevant facts from an unimportant period, while Rand is basing his views on actual knowledge from the end of the AOL.

Who is more likely to be correct: the one who has no clue, or the one who is very knowledgeable?

Ah, ok, so Egwene should have detailed knowledge of a time period which has little information carried over considering there are few books left that pre-date the Trolloc Wars, much less pre-date the Breaking. And this should be stacked against someone with a living memory of that time period, though it is unknown that he literally has a living memory of that time period, and is of an unknown state of mind at this point (even Min and Cadsuane were hesitant when they first meet post-VoG Rand, which happens after this). Got it.

Though I see we've moved on to the bullying topic, but I can't really add more than suttree at this point.

David Selig
05-04-2012, 08:09 AM
IIRC Rand was already shielded when Egwene was told he had come to the Tower and he was totally OK with it. What's the big deal? It helped keep the Aes Sedai calmer and Rand didn't seem to mind.

Davian93
05-04-2012, 08:54 AM
IIRC Rand was already shielded when Egwene was told he had come to the Tower and he was totally OK with it. What's the big deal? It helped keep the Aes Sedai calmer and Rand didn't seem to mind.

I mean, she didnt seem to mind the rape so I guess it was okay...right?

David Selig
05-04-2012, 09:07 AM
I mean, she didnt seem to mind the rape so I guess it was okay...right?
Yeah, because being shielded briefly is exactly the same thing as being raped...:rolleyes:

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-04-2012, 09:24 AM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't it 13 sisters who were shielding Rand? That is actually a pretty big deal, for a variety of reasons. And, in their world, not being able to touch the power is akin to the worst thing that could happen to you.

suttree
05-04-2012, 10:53 AM
I mean, she didnt seem to mind the rape so I guess it was okay...right?

You can not possibly be serious...

David of course brings up a very valid point. He was shielded before being brought to Egwene.

She makes no mention of arguments.

ToM
Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

But then she was far too busy consolidating her own personal power to be concerned with details such as offering the DR the help he could use. Now that she has that power and the DR no longer has the time to benefit from her help, she has two options: get in his way (thus helping the Shadow) or let him do whatever he thinks best.

Ok, I should know better than to even ask but I am going to bite. What do you think her reason is for consolidating power? We have a BA riddled and split WT that up until this point has been the main force against the shadow. Far from just wanting personnel power we see over and over again the responsibility she feels in reforming the WT and getting it ready to face the shadow. BS hits us over the head with a sledgehammer in conveying these points.

As for your last part the DR no longer has time to benefit from her help!?!? First we know that is false from various viewings but more importantly, Rand is relying on Min to find the answer! All he had to was ask for help and set Min to the task with the aid of Brown scholars in the greatest repository of knowledge the world has. Hilarious too that you would say getting in his way helps the shadow considering that is exactly what Rand(and the pattern?) purposely provoked her into doing.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2012, 10:57 AM
Ah, ok, so Egwene should have detailed knowledge of a time period which has little information carried over considering there are few books left that pre-date the Trolloc Wars, much less pre-date the Breaking. And this should be stacked against someone with a living memory of that time period, though it is unknown that he literally has a living memory of that time period, and is of an unknown state of mind at this point (even Min and Cadsuane were hesitant when they first meet post-VoG Rand, which happens after this). Got it.
True, as far as it goes. Which is not all that far.

Either Rand's knowledge and Egwene's lack of knowledge are very relevant. In that case, because she has no facts on which to base her arguments, Egwene doesn't have a basis for her objections against what Rand is planning.

Or that (lack of) knowledge is irrelevant. Then the whole issue of arguments goes out the window, and all that is left is intuition. In which case Egwene has no choice but to trust Rand.

IIRC Rand was already shielded when Egwene was told he had come to the Tower and he was totally OK with it. What's the big deal? It helped keep the Aes Sedai calmer and Rand didn't seem to mind.
"Didn't seem to mind" is indeed a good description. It may or may not have been correct.

If he'd still been in his pre-epiphany state of mind, then the attempt to shield him might have been met with balefire. What would they have done, then?
Either they fight back, risking killing the DR.
Or they do not fight back, suffering huge losses until he calms down.

And if they had managed to shield him, he had stayed seemingly calm, and then they allowed him to leave, he might've gone to pick up Callandor and repeated what happened to Graendal. Why did they take that risk, and who precisely authorised whoever made this decision to take that risk?

The only reason why those AS (and all of Tar Valon) still live is that shielding him was utterly unjustified. That means that defending it is not all that easy, though.

Grig
05-04-2012, 11:01 AM
I bet you a Coke that it boils down to "I had a dream and I'm a Dreamer you know..."

I find leveraging ignorance to be more likely.

The SEALS hold the DARK ONE in. You're not in favor of RELEASING the DARK ONE are you? You know what that will bring? GIRLS playing with TRUCKS. BOYS playing with DOLLS. HORSES EATING EACH OTHER!!

Davian93
05-04-2012, 11:03 AM
I find leveraging ignorance to be more likely.

The SEALS hold the DARK ONE in. You're not in favor of RELEASING the DARK ONE are you? You know what that will bring? GIRLS playing with TRUCKS. BOYS playing with DOLLS. HORSES EATING EACH OTHER!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wwA8QmayB40/TrAjZD7CIII/AAAAAAAAau8/W6Y2iBw--8Y/s1600/dogs-and-cats-living-together.png

suttree
05-04-2012, 11:07 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wwA8QmayB40/TrAjZD7CIII/AAAAAAAAau8/W6Y2iBw--8Y/s1600/dogs-and-cats-living-together.png

Classic...

Kimon
05-04-2012, 01:08 PM
As for your last part the DR no longer has time to benefit from her help!?!? First we know that is false from various viewings but more importantly, Rand is relying on Min to find the answer! All he had to was ask for help and set Min to the task with the aid of Brown scholars in the greatest repository of knowledge the world has. Hilarious too that you would say getting in his way helps the shadow considering that is exactly what Rand(and the pattern?) purposely provoked her into doing.

There is unlikely to be any useful information on this in the Tower Repositories. Had there been, and had it not been disposed of by the BA, it seems logical that it would have either been studied by Cadsuane, and hence already available to Rand and Min (mostly Min) for analysis, or if in a private collection of the BA, should have been known by Verin, and turned over with her ciphered notes to Egwene. Had there been any such relevant information on why his plan was a bad idea, at that moment would have been the logical time to make him aware of it. Any new information seems likely to derive either from an inspired re-interpretation of already widely known and discussed passages in the Karaethon Cycle by Min and Cadsuane, previously unknown (in the Randlands) passages from the Essanik Cycle, or from Moiraine. Moiraine seems the most likely of those three, considering Min's insistence (based upon the viewing that she could not bring herself to mention to Rand) that without her he would almost certainly fail.

Kimon
05-04-2012, 04:06 PM
Really? Some chastising? Nynaeve had to almost be dragged there protesting. And Elayne did it more to please Aviendha than because she felt sorry. And the idea never popped into their head till they realized they could use Mat in their search.

As for Egwene, she never formally apologized, but in the very next book, she and Mat made up. He came to her for advice, and she gave it to him (told him about the ter'angreal, and thus literally changed his life). Here are some quotes from that scene:

He wanted advice from her? She goggled at him. “Whatever I can do to help,” she said faintly.

“No!” He was on his feet in a bound. “No Aes Sedai! I mean . . . . You’re different. I know you, and you aren’t . . . . Didn’t they teach you anything in the Tower, some trick or other, something that would serve?”
“Oh, Mat, I am sorry. I am so sorry.”

Despite his tone, she wanted to put an arm around him. Only he would likely make some joke at her expense, and try to goose her. He had been incorrigible from the day he was horn. But he had come to her for help.

I suppose you know of some special secret class of bullies, do you, that care for their friends, want to comfort them when they're troubled and try to help them even though that help might put them in a lot of trouble with their teachers?


She is much less rude to Mat than Nynaeve is when they cross paths in Salidar, but her treatment of him here isn't much more becoming. Still, unlike Nynaeve, Egwene hasn't seen him again since, so had little chance, as did Nynaeve, to come to appreciate him, rather than merely seeing him as an unruly, if potentially useful annoyance, which is how they both treat him in this scene.

Unlike you, I don't think the tFoH incident was anything but Egwene's fault. But I'd like to see you show any further incidents of bullying on Egwene's part. If you read the books, you'll see that Nynaeve simply refused to meet with Egwene for a long time after this incident because she was quite confused about the changing power dynamic, but Egwene herself did absolutely nothing. The next time they meet, Egwene has raised Nynaeve Aes Sedai and is insisting they don't bow and scrape to her... Care to tell me where there was continued bullying from Egwene?

From a few chapters further into tFoH, while Nynaeve is avoiding meeting Egwene again, and Elayne meets her in TAR in her place, Egwene instead uses Elayne as a proxy to issue her "chastisements" (if you don't like the words I used before, though honestly calling these actions domineering and denigrating still seems spot on to me, as she is denigrating Nynaeve so as to assert her dominance over her...) to Nynaeve.

From TFoH Ch 25:

"You tell her from me that she is too old to be rolling about on the ground fighting. If she gets into another , I'll have worse to say to her. You tell her that exactly. It will be worse." Let Nynaeve chew on that until next time.

You could argue that she is merely trying to teach Nynaeve a lesson, yet at its heart this is still about asserting that between the two (Egwene and Nynaeve), that she is now the one in command.

There is however also in this chapter another interesting dialogue between Egwene and Elayne that relates to Rand.

It begins with Egwene complaining about how pompous Rand is being, mainly as regards his issuing orders to the Aiel, and then here is Elayne's reply, and then the exchange:
"Not a threat, Egwene. He is a king, whatever you or he or anyone else says, and a king or queen must dispense justice without fear of enemies or favor for friends. Anyone who does that has to be hard. Mother can make the city walls seem soft, sometimes."

"He doesn't have to be so arrogant about it," Egwene said levelly. "Nynaeve said I should remind him he's only a man, but I've not figured out how yet."

"He does have to remember he is only a man. But he has a right to be obeyed." There was something of a haughty tone to Elayne's voice, until she glanced down at herself. Then her face went crimson, and the green gown suddenly had a lace neck under her chin. "Are you sure you are not mistaking that for arrogance?" She finished in a strangled voice.

"He's as overweening as a pig in a pea-field." Egwene shifted herself on the bed; she remembered it as hard, but the thin matress felt softer than what she slept on in the tent. She did not want to talk about Rand.

Jasin Natael
05-05-2012, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure this meeting has the significance people here are ascribing to it. Egwene has no means of actually stopping Rand from breaking the seals if he chooses to. So her opposition hardly threatens the world. And it's a big enough spur to get the rulers of the world together, which is all he needs.

Rand's plan involves breaking the seals. He wants Min to find the answer to what happens next. Is there any evidence that he will break them before he has that answer? Having no plan at the moment does not mean he won't have one by the time he acts. I don't think his eventual plan will amount to 'smash and hope'.

Rand al'Fain
05-06-2012, 02:35 AM
Besides, the seals have been breaking on their own, and the last 2 you could break with your pinky toe from the sounds of it. So, breaking them on his terms, rather than the DO's and having all the rulers of Randland present, along with their forimidable forces that each brought, will allow them coordinate with each other, and have a chance to win, rather than working alone and being overwhelmed individually by the Trolloc hordes.

Davian93
05-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Classic...

Suttree, on a completely off-topic sidenote, I just wanted to say that while I completely and utterly disagree with your stance on Egwene, I do admire your arguments in her defense. I hope you stick around on TL because you've really shown yourself to be a strong worthwhile member of the community since you found us.

Davian93
05-06-2012, 08:12 PM
I'm not sure this meeting has the significance people here are ascribing to it. Egwene has no means of actually stopping Rand from breaking the seals if he chooses to. So her opposition hardly threatens the world. And it's a big enough spur to get the rulers of the world together, which is all he needs.

Rand's plan involves breaking the seals. He wants Min to find the answer to what happens next. Is there any evidence that he will break them before he has that answer? Having no plan at the moment does not mean he won't have one by the time he acts. I don't think his eventual plan will amount to 'smash and hope'.

Maybe Rand wants Egwene to oppose him and used her as a bird-dog to get all those forces gathered for him. He's a pretty brilliant military commander who knows how people think after all...he knew exactly how Egwene would react when he said what he said to her in the Hall.

maleshub
05-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Maybe Rand wants Egwene to oppose him and used her as a bird-dog to get all those forces gathered for him. He's a pretty brilliant military commander who knows how people think after all...he knew exactly how Egwene would react when he said what he said to her in the Hall.

With the possibility and hints that Rand wants the meeting as a prelude to him going to Shayol Ghul, I wonder if Rand wants her to marshal the forces of the Light for him; or if he wants the forces of the Light marshaled behind her in his vision of the post-TG world.

I don't think Rand will need everyone gathered in Merrilor for the Strike on Shayol Ghul. He might need channelers, Perrin and the Aiel; but he doesn't need the armies for the strike itself.

Davian93
05-06-2012, 09:42 PM
Well, LTT took quite a few regular soldiers with him...they catch bullets/arrows if nothing else.

suttree
05-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Suttree, on a completely off-topic sidenote, I just wanted to say that while I completely and utterly disagree with your stance on Egwene, I do admire your arguments in her defense. I hope you stick around on TL because you've really shown yourself to be a strong worthwhile member of the community since you found us.

Cheers mate...

fionwe1987
05-07-2012, 03:09 PM
Look at her note to Darlin.


She sends this in response to Darlin saying that breaking the seals requires discussion. She makes no mention of arguments. We also don't know what that Ancient Brown Scholar studied. This came up in discussion of how to catch Mesaana the task that we already know Egwene has been focused on. Again all it would take is a throwaway line to say she's tasked people to do this, but there isn't even that. It's just as feasible to say that Rand stopped off at his schools and told all of them what he was going to do and that they should start thinking of plans of what to do, and that he also did the same with the Aiel Wise Ones.
Yes, it is feasible to say Rand has had scholars from his Schools, the Wise Ones, Cadsuane and her retired friends, etc. working on finding a way. The point is, we don't know, both in his case and Egwene's, exactly what they've been doing leading up to Merillor. We have a few hints, but by no means all. Brandon clearly didn't want to telegraph the entire denouement to us in advance.

The Borderlanders have been camped with a massive army outside of a major city for over a month. Egwene is in the tower where she receives the reports of many spy networks. We know that Siuan at least is loyal. If she doesn't know where the Borderlanders are then she's even more incompetent than I suppose.
And how do you suggest they send an Aes Sedai delegation to a city where they can't channel to defend themselves and where they'll be surrounded by an entire army of doubtful allegiance? We know Egwene had word of them in Braem Wood, and Elayne told her they were south to meet Rand and that she didn't know what they were planning. Plopping an Aes Sedai delegation in the middle of that mess is hardly wise.

Similarly, Mayene and Ghealdan have been part of a massive army that's been roaming around. Malden is thought of as a city, so it's not small and again it's very likely that there is some informant of the Aes Sedai in there who first told them they've been attacked by the Shaido and then later told them about the Perrin/Seanchan response. The reason Cadsuane needs to go to Rand to find Perrin is that she's only 1 person and she has been travelling herself so it is much more difficult to receive the updates or canvas an area after she receives them.
No they don't. Information from Ghealdan has been very spotty since they left there. They had no way of knowing where Perrin's army was, or even who was in it for certain.


You are leaping to the wrong conclusion. What it means is that Rand is necessary, and may or may not be sufficient.

Egwene can't do it (whatever "it" is). If she has to try, then she will fail.
Mat can't do it (whatever "it" is). If he has to try, then he will fail.
Perrin can't do it (whatever "it" is). If he has to try, then he will fail.
Rand may be able to do it, if he tries, he may or may not be successful.
You seem to have a very wrong grasp of sufficiency. I know of no Prophesy or fortelling which says that Perrin/Mat/Egwene/Nynaeve, etc. are bound to be wrong when it comes to the final answer. None of them can come up with a solution that doesn't require the Dragon. That is all we can say for certain.

That is the issue. Betting on Egwene is a sure loss. Betting on the AS as a whole is a sure loss. Betting on Rand is dicey, but it is the only bet which may result in a win.
Care to back this up?
And yes, Rand will need lots of help and information from others. Maybe Egwene could've thought of that a year or so earlier, when she started playing at being Amyrlin. But then she was far too busy consolidating her own personal power to be concerned with details such as offering the DR the help he could use. Now that she has that power and the DR no longer has the time to benefit from her help, she has two options: get in his way (thus helping the Shadow) or let him do whatever he thinks best.
The hell he didn't have time for her help. There was an entire month where, if he had revealed the
specific gaps in his knowledge, roughly 150 Aes Sedai who have done this for their entire lives would have been able to scour the Tower library for references, experimented with the Power, maybe even worked with Asha'man to come up with solutions. With Traveling, the great libraries of Cairhein, Caemlynn and Bandar Eban could have been scoured too. Aes Sedai could have been called out of retirement... a month is a long time for research when you have the end of the world as motivation. Heck, once he'd convinced them that he did have LTT's knowledge, who do you think would have gladly sat for hours with him to absorb as much of his knowledge as she could? Egwene, of course! He would very likely have had to have Browns physically restricted from swamping him with questions.

But he chose to rely on Min and her few books of doubtful provenance. Wonderful!

And can we at least now stop saying Egwene was working to amass personal power? Even Rand acknowledges to that she had played her part in bringing the Tower together. Rather than facing the Shadow as three factions riddled with Darkfriends, the Tower is now united, numbers way more Sisters than it has had in millenia, and is firmly allied with the Wise Ones and the Windfinders. That is a hige catastrophe for the Shadow, and it wouldn't have happened if Egwene was interested in personal power.


She did when escaping from Falme. Which, of course, gives further strength to my "collar her, just to be safe" suggestion.

What murder? She killed soldiers who were barring her way as she escaped from captivity and torture. That is called self defense by rational people not frothing in hatred of a fictional character. Way to go comparing that to the balefiring of innocent civilian victims of a Foresaken...

She is much less rude to Mat than Nynaeve is when they cross paths in Salidar, but her treatment of him here isn't much more becoming. Still, unlike Nynaeve, Egwene hasn't seen him again since, so had little chance, as did Nynaeve, to come to appreciate him, rather than merely seeing him as an unruly, if potentially useful annoyance, which is how they both treat him in this scene.
Read the scene again. Egwene is the one trying to convince Nynaeve that Mat keeps his word, that he could be quite helpful in their search, and so on.

From a few chapters further into tFoH, while Nynaeve is avoiding meeting Egwene again, and Elayne meets her in TAR in her place, Egwene instead uses Elayne as a proxy to issue her "chastisements" (if you don't like the words I used before, though honestly calling these actions domineering and denigrating still seems spot on to me, as she is denigrating Nynaeve so as to assert her dominance over her...) to Nynaeve.

From TFoH Ch 25:



You could argue that she is merely trying to teach Nynaeve a lesson, yet at its heart this is still about asserting that between the two (Egwene and Nynaeve), that she is now the one in command.
No. I'd argue that this isn't domination or denigration. This is Egwene emphasizing that she is no longer a kid. Happens in the development of every teen. Egwene called out Nynaeve on the fact that Nyn never accepted fault and always tried to hide mistakes that weren't even her fault. It was the culmination of Egwene's growth as she went from Nynaeve's goggle-eyed apprentice to a woman of her own who will one day lead the Aes Sedai. What she says to Elayne is an emphasis of that. How is domination or denigration? Had she used the threat of physical violence a second time, [I]then you'd have a point. She never did, thankfully.
There is however also in this chapter another interesting dialogue between Egwene and Elayne that relates to Rand.

It begins with Egwene complaining about how pompous Rand is being, mainly as regards his issuing orders to the Aiel, and then here is Elayne's reply, and then the exchange:
Okay... and? Egwene at this point doesn't understand the pressures of leadership. But she is also not wrong that power was getting to Rand's head. She will go through a similar cycle in her struggles with leadership, and will come out on top of it swifter than Rand because she greatly benefited from her training with the Wise Ones.

But I don't see how this ties to Egwene "dominating" her friends. When she goes through the same problems, she has no trouble acknwledging (as she did several times in tGS) that Rand went through similar issues, and she even admires him for coming out on top of them.

As for Rand's role as Dragon, no one has said the positive things she says about him ToM. Here are a few examples:


She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward.
The type of man you could trust with anything.
Even the fate of the world.

...

The tea was back to tasting stale again. The grain stores they'd discovered were running out, and the next sacks to come in had been filled with
weevils. [I]The Land is One with the Dragon.

...

"I've heard that from them, too," Egwene said. "But I looked into his eyes, and something else has changed, something inexplicable. The man I
saw . . ."
"He didn't seem like one to destroy Natrin's Barrow?" Siuan shivered as she thought of that.
"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said. "Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

Unlike what a lot of Egwene-haters seem to think, Egwene fully appreciates Rand's role as savior of the world, and the enormous influence he wields on
it.

What she doesn't do is act the doormat. When she sees something he's doing that she feels is wrong, she calls him out on it. Which, you will notice, is exactly the same behavior you see in all his truly close allies. Perrin, Cadsuane, Min, Nynaeve... What I don't get is why people are so peeved when Egwene does it but are totally fine when the others do.

maleshub
05-07-2012, 03:45 PM
Well, LTT took quite a few regular soldiers with him...they catch bullets/arrows if nothing else.

LTT took 20K troops. Perrin has an army of at least 50K soldiers; Mat has about 25K, and the Aiel can easily give Rand 300K spears.

Rand doesn't need the armies of Tar Valon, Tear, Illian, Borderlands, Arad Doman, Andor, and Cairhien since he has at least 350K troops (if not 400K) to use in Shayol Ghul.

And the above doesn't take into account Rand binding the 9 Moons (and her military machine) to him.

fionwe1987
05-07-2012, 04:00 PM
Incidentally, any ideas on Tar Valon's military contribution to the LB? At the end of tGS, they had about 800 AS, 1500 novices, and 100k soldiers.

In ToM, Bryne has apparently been heavily recruiting, Egwene alludes to quickly raising Novices and Accepted to Aes Sedai (as was apparently done in the Trolloc Wars), and there is the distinct possibility that members of the Kin will soon join and quickly be raised to Aes Sedai, further increasing their numbers.

With about 150K+ soldiers under Gareth Bryne, 2000+ channelers, and a hefty collection of angreal and sa'angreal, the White Tower seems to sit pretty at the top of the military pyramid of the Westlands, with the Aiel overmatching their strength. Combined, these two forces alone should be sufficient to overmatch the Seanchan. Too bad they can't use the threat of war to make the Senachan sue for peace. Or can't they...?

gen
05-07-2012, 05:00 PM
What murder? She killed soldiers who were barring her way as she escaped from captivity and torture. That is called self defense by rational people not frothing in hatred of a fictional character. Way to go comparing that to the balefiring of innocent civilian victims of a Foresaken...

Those soldiers had nothing to do with Egwene at that point and Nynaeve points out, "they are nothing to do with us." as they are marching to face whitecloaks. So you might want to consider calling others frothing-in-the-mouth while you are saying Egwene killing numerous people without warning (and without provocation seeing as those particular soldiers have nothing to do with Egwene) is "self-defense".

suttree
05-07-2012, 05:18 PM
Those soldiers had nothing to do with Egwene at that point and Nynaeve points out, "they are nothing to do with us." as they are marching to face whitecloaks. So you might want to consider calling others frothing-in-the-mouth while you are saying Egwene killing numerous people without warning (and without provocation seeing as those particular soldiers have nothing to do with Egwene) is "self-defense".

Not true, they were stuck between two groups of soldiers and Nynaeve was not sure they would make it past them...


But up the street from the harbor came a formation of Seanchan soldiers, a hundred or more in ordered ranks, with an officer at their head in his painted armor. They were still halfway down the street from the women, but they marched with a grim, implacable step, and it seemed to Nynaeve that every eye was fixed on her. That's ridiculous. I can't see their eyes inside those helmets, and if anybody had given an alarm, it would be behind us. She stopped anyway.
"There are more behind us," Min murmured. Nynaeve could hear those boots, now. "I don't know which will reach us first."
Nynaeve took a deep breath. "They are nothing to do with us." She looked beyond the approaching soldiers, to the harbor, filled with tall, boxy Seanchan ships. She could not make out Spray; she prayed it was still there, and ready. "We will walk right past them." Light, I hope we can.
"What if they want you to join them, Nynaeve?" Elayne asked. "You are wearing that dress. If they start asking questions ..."
"I will not go back," Egwene said grimly. "I'll die first. Let me show them what they've taught me."

She was basically a captured enemy combatant. Any troop that sees her for what she is will try and take her down/collar them all. On top of that seeing as what she just went through at the hands of the Seanchan this most certainly can be viewed as self defense during the course of her escape.

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 05:26 PM
Not true, they were stuck between two groups of soldiers and Nynaeve was not sure they would make it past them...



She was basically a captured enemy combatant. Any troop that sees her for what she is will try and take her down. On top of that seeing as what she just went through at the hands of the Seanchan this most certainly can be viewed as self defense during the course of her escape.

I think the overall point being made (in the original post, at least), was that the argument for treating Rand as hostile, holds for treating Egwene as hostile. They both made actions that, removed from the complete context, makes them appear dangerous and unpredictable. Likely to just attack people at the slightest provocation.

Obviously she had good reason. Just like Rand had good reason. This is more of an expectancy problem. Randlanders expect the Dragon to be unpredictable and dangerous, so they see it. His actions get removed from context.

fionwe1987
05-07-2012, 05:35 PM
I think the overall point being made (in the original post, at least), was that the argument for treating Rand as hostile, holds for treating Egwene as hostile. They both made actions that, removed from the complete context, makes them appear dangerous and unpredictable. Likely to just attack people at the slightest provocation.

Obviously she had good reason. Just like Rand had good reason. This is more of an expectancy problem. Randlanders expect the Dragon to be unpredictable and dangerous, so they see it. His actions get removed from context.
Wait... you're not saying that with context, Rand was right to Balefire Natrin's Barrow, are you?

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 05:37 PM
Wait... you're not saying that with context, Rand was right to Balefire Natrin's Barrow, are you?

No. Just like, with context, Egwene wasn't right to attack the Whitecloaks outside of Tar Valon.

I am saying it is understandable, and absolutely nowhere near as horrendous as people make it out to be.

fionwe1987
05-07-2012, 06:08 PM
No. Just like, with context, Egwene wasn't right to attack the Whitecloaks outside of Tar Valon.

I am saying it is understandable, and absolutely nowhere near as horrendous as people make it out to be.
There is no comparison between them. Natrin's Barrow was an unspeakable atrocity. What happened outside Valon was panic induced, and killed no one, not even enemy combatants. It was retarded, to be sure, but not the immensely evil act that was Natrin's Barrow.

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 06:15 PM
There is no comparison between them. Natrin's Barrow was an unspeakable atrocity. What happened outside Valon was panic induced, and killed no one, not even enemy combatants. It was retarded, to be sure, but not the immensely evil act that was Natrin's Barrow.

Based on the fact that Graendal lays Compulsion on so heavily that they were basically dead anyways? They were mindless automatons. Forsaken mention this. Rand mentions this. They're basically just puppets. Nothing is left of them.

Their bodies were physically there, but once he killed Graendal, they were dead anyways. That was kind of the point.

What makes it an "unspeakable atrocity"?

Kimon
05-07-2012, 06:27 PM
Based on the fact that Graendal lays Compulsion on so heavily that they were basically dead anyways? They were mindless automatons. Forsaken mention this. Rand mentions this. They're basically just puppets. Nothing is left of them.

Their bodies were physically there, but once he killed Graendal, they were dead anyways. That was kind of the point.

What makes it an "unspeakable atrocity"?

Natrin's Barrow seems sort of similar to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was excessive while still serving a clear strategic purpose - albeit one that failed. Nonetheless, it was still a highly debatable decision based on the amount of collateral damage since the victims were innocents. It was questionable considering the wanton treatment of the lives of civilians, but still was expedient, if ruthless. Had he actually carried out his plan to attack Ebou Dar, now that would have been beyond debate an unspeakable atrocity. Natrin's Barrow, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki are controversial, but likely to elicit mixed opinions.

Edit: On second thought, here's another comparison. Suppose instead of calling in the Seals to assassinate Bin Laden, we had simply used a missile strike and taken out his entire compound, not caring who else was in there. Would that have been an unspeakable atrocity, or just collateral damage?

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 06:36 PM
Natrin's Barrow seems sort of similar to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was excessive while still serving a clear strategic purpose - albeit one that failed. Nonetheless, it was still a highly debatable decision based on the amount of collateral damage since the victims were innocents. It was questionable considering the wanton treatment of the lives of civilians, but still was expedient, if ruthless. Had he actually carried out his plan to attack Ebou Dar, now that would have been beyond debate an unspeakable atrocity. Natrin's Barrow, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki are controversial, but likely to elicit mixed opinions.

I agree and disagree.

Whether there were innocent lives lost or not is a matter of whether you still considered those people alive, given the heavy compulsion.

As I said, though, even in context, I don't agree with it. I was just saying that it's not this "unspeakable atrocity" that it is being made out to be. If he had done the Ebou Dar thing, then yeah, we're into the "unspeakable atrocity" territory.

Out of all context to what was happening, Balefiring a Palace full of people is a horrible atrocity. I'll agree to that. Which is why a lot of people get to it. In context, the people weren't really alive anymore, and it was to kill one of the most dangerous people in the world. Not good, but not as bad as people portray it to be.

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 06:38 PM
Edit: On second thought, here's another comparison. Suppose instead of calling in the Seals to assassinate Bin Laden, we had simply used a missile strike and taken out his entire compound, not caring who else was in there. Would that have been an unspeakable atrocity, or just collateral damage?

Haha. Honestly, I was considering mentioning that as well. It's definitely a better analogy. The reason I decided not to, is that it still doesn't account for the fact that in many respects, the people who were in there, were already dead.

fionwe1987
05-07-2012, 08:17 PM
Based on the fact that Graendal lays Compulsion on so heavily that they were basically dead anyways? They were mindless automatons. Forsaken mention this. Rand mentions this. They're basically just puppets. Nothing is left of them.

Their bodies were physically there, but once he killed Graendal, they were dead anyways. That was kind of the point.

What makes it an "unspeakable atrocity"?
We know the bolded part is not true. The Foresaken who knows her best, Sammael, points out that the ultra-compelled zombies are all for show, and are never used for anything useful except as physical attractions. Any number of people who Graendal actually has a use for have much subtler forms of compulsion on them. Some of those would be Darkfriends, but some won't be. The Balefire didn't selectively kill the latter and spare the former.

Secondly, even if every person in Natrin's Barrow was a zombie, we saw that even a child like Kerb was able to muster up one last bit of defiance when he was healed. Don't her other zombies deserve that moment? And what of what Nynaeve achieved with Healing the taint? She reversed the TP compulsion and immediately Healed the damaged brain beneath it. Had she had time to figure this out, could she have helped Graendal's zmbies similarly? After all, when Rand told her Graendal's slaves were beyond help, he would also have told her Healing the taint is impossible!

Lastly, there's the method of destruction used. Rand didn't create a huge explosion that killed everyone. Instead, just to be sure he had succeeded, he used massive amounts of Balefire. The Pattern was heavily damaged, when it was already in great chaos due to the Dark One. That, in ad of itself, was a great act of evil.

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 08:50 PM
We know the bolded part is not true. The Foresaken who knows her best, Sammael, points out that the ultra-compelled zombies are all for show, and are never used for anything useful except as physical attractions. Any number of people who Graendal actually has a use for have much subtler forms of compulsion on them. Some of those would be Darkfriends, but some won't be. The Balefire didn't selectively kill the latter and spare the former.

And what evidence do we have that she was using them for anything important? If she sees no immediate use for them, she goes straight to heavy compulsion. Hell, a lot of the time, even if she's got a use for them, she still plans on using heavy compulsion on them. Moreover, I'll trust her word over Sammael's.

Graendal nearly reached out with a weave of Compulsion to seize the boy for herself. However, she restrained herself. Once a man had known that level of Compulsion, there was no way to recover him, and Moridin might be angered.

...

And, as Graendal began to think on Moridin, the man entered. Now, there was a handsome creature. Demandred looked like a knob-faced peasant compared with him. Yes, this body was much better than his previous one. He was almost pretty enough to be one of her pets, though that chin spoiled the face. Too prominent, too strong. Still, that stark black hair atop a tall, broad-shouldered body. . . . She smiled, thinking of him kneeling in a filmy outfit of white, looking at her adoringly, his mind wrapped in Compulsion to the point that he saw nobody—nothing— other than Graendal.

Mesaana rose as soon as Moridin entered, and Graendal reluctantly did likewise. He wasn't her pet, not yet.

Or even LTT's experiences with people Graendal deals with.

"I have done nothing," Rand said quietly, not looking toward her. "This is what you did, Nynaeve, in unraveling those weaves. Graendal's Compulsions are powerful—but crude, in some ways. She fills a mind with Compulsion to such an extent as to erase personality and intellect, leaving behind a puppet who works only according to her direct commands."

Rand shook his head. "If you ask the men at the jail, they'll tell you this one was slow of thought and rarely spoke to them. There was no real person in this head, only layered weaves of Compulsion. Instructions cleverly designed to wipe whatever personality this poor wretch had and replace it with a creature who would act exactly as Graendal wished. I've seen it dozens of times."

I can get more of these, if you want. Graendal in her previous homes. Forsaken openly acknowledging that anybody she brought into her home was already under so much Compulsion that they were gone.

Yes, Graendal can use lighter Compulsion. She doesn't on her servants, though. She makes her servant into mindless pets.

Secondly, even if every person in Natrin's Barrow was a zombie, we saw that even a child like Kerb was able to muster up one last bit of defiance when he was healed. Don't her other zombies deserve that moment? And what of what Nynaeve achieved with Healing the taint? She reversed the TP compulsion and immediately Healed the damaged brain beneath it. Had she had time to figure this out, could she have helped Graendal's zmbies similarly? After all, when Rand told her Graendal's slaves were beyond help, he would also have told her Healing the taint is impossible!

Good question. Let's ask Nynaeve, shall we?

"What is the purpose of all this?" Nynaeve demanded. "You sent this man to suffer a Compulsion, knowing what it would do to him? I won't watch another man squirm and die because of this! Whatever she has compelled him to do, I won't remove it! It will be your own fault if it brings your death."

Nynaeve also considered anybody who had been Compulsed by Graendal to be beyond help already. So, no Nynaeve was not going to try to save them, because while Healing the Compulsion felt so good, it made it worse, because in the end, it just killed them.

Also, you're making a false comparison. The options were not: Kill everybody there, or just kill Graendal. The options were kill everybody there immediately, lose Graendal and have the others die slowly (even if Nynaeve agreed to Heal them), or leave Graendal alone.

Yeah, the second option would be better, because then he's not the one killing them. It's Graendal's actions that kill them. Never said otherwise.

Lastly, there's the method of destruction used. Rand didn't create a huge explosion that killed everyone. Instead, just to be sure he had succeeded, he used massive amounts of Balefire. The Pattern was heavily damaged, when it was already in great chaos due to the Dark One. That, in ad of itself, was a great act of evil.

I'm not a fan of Balefire, either. Here's the problem you're having, though. You keep thinking that I'm saying this was fine, or a good thing. What I am saying is that in the circumstances, it was understandable. I am also saying that it was wrong.

The other thing I'm saying is that it wasn't the wholesale, mindless, purposeless slaughter that you keep trying to put it into. It was a poor decision.

suttree
05-07-2012, 09:23 PM
Nynaeve also considered anybody who had been Compulsed by Graendal to be beyond help already. So, no Nynaeve was not going to try to save them, because while Healing the Compulsion felt so good, it made it worse, because in the end, it just killed them.


You can not seriously think that Nyn wouldn't try to come up with a new way to heal it given the chance. She is not the type of person to just lay down and accept something like that.

Flinn Sedai
05-07-2012, 09:25 PM
You can not seriously think that Nyn wouldn't try to come up with a new way to heal it given the chance. She is not the type of person to just lay down and accept something like that.

At some point down the road, she may come up with some way to deal with Compulsion that heavy. However, she says EXPLICITLY that she won't do it with these people.

That's not something that I think. It's something I read her say. Only thing that overrules that, is if Brandon says that she would have tried to Heal them.